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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:36 PM

It's time THIS flag and this symbol made their appearance on DU:





They are, respectively, the primary flag of the transgender rights movement and the main symbol of transgender identity.

Chelsea Manning(the person known to us until this morning as Bradley Manning)is now the most well-known person of transgender identity in this country. The cause of freeing Chelsea Manning is, therefore, now part of the larger struggle for transgender rights(a struggle all progressives and people of good will must take up)and the liberation of Chelsea Manning will now become a major goal in the struggle for transgender rights and the continuing struggle for human liberation.

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Arrow 58 replies Author Time Post
Reply It's time THIS flag and this symbol made their appearance on DU: (Original post)
Ken Burch Aug 2013 OP
Jackpine Radical Aug 2013 #1
Ken Burch Aug 2013 #2
Ken Burch Aug 2013 #3
Ken Burch Aug 2013 #9
enigmatic Aug 2013 #31
NealK Aug 2013 #28
morningfog Aug 2013 #4
Ken Burch Aug 2013 #6
TalkingDog Aug 2013 #43
Ken Burch Aug 2013 #48
bunnies Aug 2013 #10
kestrel91316 Aug 2013 #17
sabrina 1 Aug 2013 #29
itsrobert Aug 2013 #41
curlyred Aug 2013 #50
enlightenment Aug 2013 #54
Neoma Aug 2013 #56
enlightenment Aug 2013 #58
Tien1985 Aug 2013 #52
damnedifIknow Aug 2013 #5
Ken Burch Aug 2013 #7
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2013 #38
William769 Aug 2013 #8
enigmatic Aug 2013 #11
MADem Aug 2013 #27
BlueJazz Aug 2013 #12
GP6971 Aug 2013 #13
UtahLib Aug 2013 #14
BlancheSplanchnik Aug 2013 #15
SCVDem Aug 2013 #16
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #18
Jim Lane Aug 2013 #22
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #25
NuclearDem Aug 2013 #39
itsrobert Aug 2013 #42
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #44
Ken Burch Aug 2013 #51
hrmjustin Aug 2013 #19
Zorra Aug 2013 #20
Warren DeMontague Aug 2013 #21
KittyWampus Aug 2013 #23
Ken Burch Aug 2013 #33
ladyVet Aug 2013 #46
Jim Lane Aug 2013 #24
idwiyo Aug 2013 #26
totodeinhere Aug 2013 #30
NealK Aug 2013 #32
undergroundpanther Aug 2013 #34
lupinella Aug 2013 #35
dorkulon Aug 2013 #36
DissidentVoice Aug 2013 #37
Ken Burch Aug 2013 #49
dorkulon Aug 2013 #53
libodem Aug 2013 #40
tavalon Aug 2013 #45
liberal_at_heart Aug 2013 #47
Neoma Aug 2013 #57
99Forever Aug 2013 #55

Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:39 PM

1. I'm on board for a rec on that.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:41 PM

2. Here is a description of the flag's symbolism, from its creator, transwoman artist Monica Helms:

"The stripes at the top and bottom are light blue, the traditional color for baby boys. The stripes next to them are pink, the traditional color for baby girls. The stripe in the middle is white, for those who are intersex, transitioning or consider themselves having a neutral or undefined gender. The pattern is such that no matter which way you fly it, it is always correct, signifying us finding correctness in our lives"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_Pride_flag

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:46 PM

3. And here is an alternate transgender flag design created in 2002 by Jennifer Pallinen



Here's a description of this design, from the same link as quoted above:

The colors on the flag are from top to bottom: red, light purple, medium purple, dark purple, and blue. The red and the blue represent male and female. The three purple stripes represent the diversity of the TG community and genders other than male and female. The flag is public domain.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #3)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:58 PM

9. Finally, here is an adaptation of the "yin-yang" symbol for the transgender cause:

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:58 AM

31. I'm a Buddhist

The Ying/Yang is a big part of my life. I love this one.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:49 AM

28. This is beautiful.

I'll put it in my signature line.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:47 PM

4. It is also time for zero tolerance of transphobia,

Which there has been a shit ton of today.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:53 PM

6. True Dat.

Transphobia is going to be the last "acceptable" form of bigotry in this country. Not that the others have gone away, but you can't really go there in public on those, which you still can with this.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #6)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:04 PM

43. You mean besides being overweight or from the South?

Not diminishing the problems with transphobia... just interjecting some lived experience from DU.

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Response to TalkingDog (Reply #43)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:44 PM

48. Nobody's been killed just for being from the South

since Lee surrendered at Appomattox.
Transgendered people are at constant risk of violent death.

And as a person with weight issues, I have faced, at times, hostility and even what I'd call bigoted treatment due to my weight-but would not compare my treatment with the ordeal that transpeople face.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:00 PM

10. + a million. nt

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Response to morningfog (Reply #4)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:10 AM

17. Meanwhile, misogyny is still alive and well on DU.

That little part is perfectly ok with many folks here, including the Admin.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #17)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:53 AM

29. I'm a woman and I haven't experienced any misogyny on Du, certainly not from the Admin.

I have experienced lately lots of what used to know as Right Wing Authoritarianism here support for the persecution of Whistle Blowers eg.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #4)


Response to itsrobert (Reply #41)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:56 PM

50. So when do you think she becomes a she?

Honestly, think about what you just wrote. Transgender has nothing whatsoever to do with the equipment. It is when a person is trapped in the wrong body. In this case, Chelsea the female person is not in the correct physical body. She is a she and has been for her entire life.

The treatments and surgeries do not make her female. They only make the cover match the book.

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Response to curlyred (Reply #50)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:49 PM

54. Give it up.

This poster seems to be making a point of presenting their pov in every thread that raises this issue.

So many people have attempted to be reasonable - to educate - to shine some light on the stunning ignorance of the remarks that it is abundantly clear that this poster takes some sick pleasure from what they are doing.

Ignore them. They are not worth one moment of your time.

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #54)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:54 PM

56. It's not the poster that someone is replying to that gets the message.

Other people read it and learn things from the argument. Even if they are hateful, people can observe the hateful behavior and distinguish how wrong that person is. That's the real reason to argue on a message board.

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Response to Neoma (Reply #56)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:12 PM

58. Neoma,

I appreciate what you are saying - but at some point, that reasoning becomes an excuse for allowing overt ugliness to permeate DU. Yes, some people see it for what it is; but others use it as a springboard for their own backward attitudes. It's two steps forward and one step back - and every step back is a boot in the face of the trans* community on DU.

I say ignore it because that poster has had ample opportunity the last two days to smear their nastiness all over the board. They enjoy the responses they get because it draws attention to them. In this case, "don't feed the troll" is an apt metaphor.

edited for missing punctuation

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #41)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:04 PM

52. Your your use

The wrong pronouns intentionally is bigoted. You might continue to use bigoted speech, but I and others will point it out.

This is cis-centric language.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:53 PM

5. Why can't people let live?

I'm sure Chelsea Manning doesn't discriminate against fat people or bald people or any other. I mean, people really need to look at themselves before judging others.

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Response to damnedifIknow (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:56 PM

7. It's possible that bigotry may, in fact, be an addictive behavior.

That, and keeping hate alive helps the powerful keep us divided against each other, rather than united against them.
False consciousness is great for business.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #7)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:34 PM

38. At the end of the day bigotry is a choice

I've no doubt many bigots are raised with bigoted attitudes but there is always a point when they choose some evidence over other evidence or ignore exculpatory evidence to maintain their prejudice. I doubt anyone could lob enough anti-midget propaganda at you to instill in you a hatred for little people. You would have to choose to believe them or not.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:58 PM

8. Kick & very highly recommended.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:03 PM

11. K&R

I can't believe the vile things I'm reading here today.

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Response to enigmatic (Reply #11)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:29 AM

27. I guess I should be glad I took the day off.... Nt

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:03 PM

12. People's sexual stuff has zero interest with me..except to defend what they are/want.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:14 PM

13. K&R

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:36 PM

14. I'm so glad I opened your OP.

I found some of the comments in a thread discussing Chelsea, which I could not continue reading, very mean spirited and disheartening.

I hope Skinner is observing the various bigoted attitudes and ignorance being so blithely expressed at DU today.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:49 PM

15. holy cow! I haven't been here lately.....

And DU is my news source!

I had NO clue.

On the other hand, I'm not sorry to miss the negativity storm. But I AM sorry to hear it's going on.

I was once crazy in love with a gender dysmorphic woman. She was very masculine behaving. It was hard on me when it broke up, but she wasn't dealing with *any* of her issues very successfully......

That relationship deeply showed me, the outside stuff is just packaging.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:53 PM

16. I need a flag and ribbon glossary

I seriously can't keep up with all the different symbols.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:11 AM

18. Imagine our first contact with an alien race and it turns out they have no gender.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #18)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:30 AM

22. Or both, as on the planet Gethen.

The Left Hand of Darkness is a science-fiction novel by Ursula K. LeGuin. An Earth-normal human is sent as an envoy to Gethen, where people are very similar to us but have both sets of sexual organs in rudimentary form. Each month, one or the other engorges, and the person is for that time a person of that gender.

Oh, there are a few people who are always one sex or the other. They're called "perverts". One Gethenian comments how, through the envoy's visit, they've learned that there's a whole galaxy full of perverts.

It isn't what you imagined but it is, in some ways, more of a challenge to our assumptions about gender. Even if you're not generally into science fiction, it's a superb read. There are no ray guns or mad scientists or bug-eyed monsters.

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Response to Jim Lane (Reply #22)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:15 AM

25. Another good read is one of Heinlein's comedies....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Will_Fear_No_Evil

An old man wakes to find his brain has been transplanted into the body of his secretary he lusted after. To top it off, her mind is somehow still intact and they have hilarious back and forths.

One good example is when he FINALLY has sex the for first time in his new body and says to the conciseness within, "Why didn't you tell me?"

She says, "Tell you what?"

He says, "That it's so much BETTER!"

She says, "How would I know?"

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #18)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:37 PM

39. Gen-der? We do not understand that concept. We have only one gender--Neuchacho.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #18)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:18 PM

42. What would Capt Kirk do than?

n/t

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Response to itsrobert (Reply #42)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:04 PM

44. Hump their leg like a dog.

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #44)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:04 PM

51. Or whatever they had in lieu of a leg.

n/t.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:13 AM

19. K&R!

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:22 AM

20. I like this one too, because it is totally LGBT inclusive:



This was my avatar at one time, and will be again.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:24 AM

21. K&R

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:46 AM

23. I'd like to just quietly mention Chaz Bono… only because you say Manning "is now the most well-know

person of transgender identity".

People are beginning to learn what transgender identity means and Chaz really deserves a lot of credit for being willing to share so much of his personal life with the public.

He took a lot of crap for going on Dancing W/The Stars.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #23)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:27 AM

33. No disrespect to Chaz intended. n/t.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #23)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:10 PM

46. Glad you mentioned Chaz.

Now we have two examples: a "male" to "female", and a "female" to "male". People can see both sides of the issue, if they're willing to look and not jump to conclusions.

I like the flags, as well, OP. Thanks for posting them.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:47 AM

24. I like the flag but I don't understand your comment about Manning.

You write, "The cause of freeing Chelsea Manning is, therefore, now part of the larger struggle for transgender rights...."

Did transgender issues play any role in this prosecution? I really can't imagine some government decisionmakers saying, "We have several leakers here, but let's go after Manning because he sometimes dresses as a woman." It seems much more likely that the government's decision was based on the nature, scope, and impact of the leaks.
]
According to her Wikipedia bio, Manning is an atheist. Speaking as another member of the oft-persecuted irreligious minority, I wouldn't consider the cause of freeing her to be part of the larger struggle for atheist and agnostic rights.

I'm sure there are some people who support transgender rights but who also believe strongly in the national security state, and would have been happy if Manning had been sentenced to death. If they would react that way to any leaker, I don't see why they'd be logically required to make an exception based on demographic factors, like transgender status or religion.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:26 AM

26. K&R

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:56 AM

30. Before I heard that she had asked to henceforth be referred to as Chelsea I had called

for a pardon for the person I had known as Bradley Manning. Here is the link.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023506765

So obviously I support a pardon for Chelsea and I agree with you about a pardon.

I also support the rights of transgendered people. However I think think that asking for a pardon and supporting Chelsea's rights as a transgendered person are two different things. You said "the liberation of Chelsea Manning will now become a major goal in the struggle for transgender rights." However, if Chelsea were not transgendered and remained Bradley Manning then a pardon would also have been in order. Chelsea should be freed not because she is transgendered but because what she did was the right thing to do. She is a hero not a traitor and that's why she deserves a parson. She does not deserve a pardon because she is transgendered. However she does have rights as a transgendered person whether she gets pardoned or not.

I hope I am making sense with my logic.

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Response to totodeinhere (Reply #30)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:21 AM

32. Welll said.

And you make perfect sense.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:04 AM

34. I'd use it

I like the trans symbol.
I couldn't get MY picture of me at a transgender rally to link here sry.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:26 AM

35. K&R n/t

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:09 PM

36. But... Manning is not in jail because of transgender issues.

Manning is in jail for leaking gov't secrets. Is it your position that anyone with transgender identity should not be punished for breaking the law?

(I'd be happy to see Manning released as a whistleblower, but 'transgenders get out of jail free' doesn't seem like a proper precedent to set.)

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Response to dorkulon (Reply #36)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:21 PM

37. That's pretty much my take

It is immaterial to me that Manning is transgendered.

I doubt that played any part in the issues at hand.

I don't want to see anyone discriminated against, because we all have things about ourselves that someone else would like to discriminate against. I believe fully in "when you point a finger, you've got three more pointing back at you."

If Manning wants to live as a woman, it is no business of mine. I cannot tell another how to live their life.

However, I just don't see the correlation.

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Response to dorkulon (Reply #36)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:52 PM

49. Two points:

1)it is entirely possible that the harsh treatment Chelsea received during the early part of her incarceration was related to the fact that she presented as a person of ambiguous gender.

2)Even if you believe she is guilty of serious crimes(that's debatable, but for the sake of argument let's say at the moment that you're right)Chelsea Manning is going to be at special and particular risk in a military prison and in an military environment, an environment in which people are molded into a so-called "warrior elite", in part, by an obsessive campaign to demonize and stigmatize any person Who doesn't act in rigid conformity with "traditional" gender roles. It's very possible that someone will try to violently attack Chelsea during her confinement.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #49)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:09 PM

53. Certainly, no one should be attacked in prison.

Many are, regardless of their gender identity. That's wrong and it shouldn't be--for anyone.

But, again, I feel that transgendered people should be treated EQUALLY, not better, than anyone else. The notion that Manning should be set free just because of gender identity issues is a bit absurd in my opinion.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:00 PM

40. The two spirits are special

And precious. They have an important place in all societies as healers, caregivers, foster parents, helpers and providers and mentors. They are here for a reason. They give comfort to the elderly and the orphans. They are there for the dying. Maybe not every single one but these are humans imbued with characteristics of both sexes that make them uniquely qualified to have understanding of human nature.

They are a blessing to the rest of us.


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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:38 PM

45. I just woke up and posted on another thread about transgender

I had no idea until this moment why, on this day of all days, transgender is the topic of the day. Thanks for enlightening me.

But yeah, it doesn't matter what parts are there, and whether the soul and body are of the same gender or different, this person must galvanize us because of what we learned not only about what our government was allowing overseas but how they treated this whistleblower.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:17 PM

47. that's lovely. I never knew there were individual flags until my bisexual daughter showed me the

flag for bisexuals. I had never seen it before. I'll never understand how some people can claim to fight for homosexuals and yet stll have so many prejudices against transgenders and bisexuals. I mean if you're going to have acceptance for one why can't you have acceptance for the others as well? Just doens't make any sense to me.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #47)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:07 PM

57. Well, unfortunately I know some of why the bisexual bit is shunned.

Since I'm bisexual...

1. "Why don't you just CHOOSE already?" People can't separate it. They think if they've had gay sex, they're gay.
2. They think HIV/AIDS spread from gay people to straight people because we're apparently all swingers that like bigamy.

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Response to Ken Burch (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:54 PM

55. K&R

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