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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:38 PM

 

Like it or Not, Bradley Manning is a Traitor

...Don’t kid yourself, Bradley Manning isn’t a hero. He obviously suffers from some serious emotional issues. He seems to struggle with his gender, his sexuality, his parents divorce and from most accounts of those who knew him, he never seemed to fit in with anyone.

And while I sympathize with his struggles, that doesn’t excuse his actions. I think that’s something some of his supporters seem to confuse. They read the story about a bullied gay man, who struggled with acceptance in society (and the military) and empathize with his life story. And while I’m an avid supporter of LGBT rights, that doesn’t impact my views on why I oppose his actions...

Seeing the pieces of information he exposed, it’s easy to hold him up as a hero because some of it was horrific, and controversial, behavior by our government. But those that do so ignore the dangers of someone in our military, with access to classified information, during a time of war, deployed to war, leaking information that could compromise the lives of our brave men and women serving overseas.

I’m sorry, I just don’t have sympathy for someone who does that.

http://www.forwardprogressives.com/like-it-or-not-bradley-manning-is-a-traitor-not-a-hero/

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Reply Like it or Not, Bradley Manning is a Traitor (Original post)
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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:42 PM

1. The pilot who killed all those people is a piece of shit.

 

Manning is a hero for outing that.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:54 PM

157. And then Private Manning negated that heroic act by doing the mass file dumps

Would you care to explain how the release of a quarter-million files containing the names of people working with the US against dictatorial regimes makes Manning any different from Dick Cheney?

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #157)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:10 PM

168. Working against dictatorial regimes?

 

You mean they are doing what Manning did.

Are they heroes?

How many of those countries invaded, occupied, tortured, bombed, raped and imprisoned other countries? Other then the US.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #168)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:21 AM

227. Manning doesn't live in a dictatorial regime. n/t

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #227)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:32 AM

228. Authoritarian, yes.

 

Now answer the rest of what I said.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #228)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:46 AM

229. It's not possible for any of us to answer.

Last edited Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:52 AM - Edit history (4)

None of us have read the over 250,000 cables that Manning indiscriminately, recklessly dumped before names could be redacted.

Manning didn't do that as part of thoughtful whistle-blowing -- which I give credit for, with regard to the helicopter videos. Manning dumped the 250,000 cables as a way of lashing out -- and probably also trying to get some approval from Assange, with whom Manning conversed online for a year before handing over the cables. I think Assange encouraged the soldier to grab everything available and let Assange decide what to do with it. Assange played Manning; he took advantage of a miserable, unstable young person. But it's Manning who will have to bear the consequences. A sad lesson to have to learn. It's lucky Manning might get out in as few as 8 years. It could have been much worse.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #229)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:58 AM

269. When you play with fire, you can get burned.

 

Why do love spies or whistle blowers from other countries but we hate when the tables are turned.


Choose the life, choose the consequences.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #269)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:49 AM

281. Why? Because we have a long history of conflict with Russia, that's why.

That's why they are gloating about Snowden's defection. They can now pretend their record of civil rights is better than ours.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #281)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:55 AM

282. Because everyone does it.

 

To claim we are better then the next guy is a load of baloney.

We took it in the shorts this time, get over it.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #227)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:54 PM

287. No, but some of the people the State Department works with do

Manning's Cablegate dump contains files dating back to 1966 and produced by every US Embassy in the world. Any self-respecting dictatorship shoots people who are revealed to have worked with the United States. You KNOW all the dictatorships in the world, upon finding out WikiLeaks had released all these cables, started searching Assange's database for names of its suspected traitors. Those countries also believe in corruption of blood - that a treason you committed taints your entire family. And they have very long memories.

So consider: You live in a dictatorship. Forty years ago your mother was an informant for the United States. They used her real name in their reporting. Your mom died ten years ago without telling anyone in her family about her past as a spy. Then Manning releases every State Department cable back to the Vietnam War...and at two in the morning, the Ministry for Security kicks in your door and the doors of all your siblings, grabs everyone in the house, takes you to the nearest Army post, and executes all of you for treason after torturing you. That shit only makes the papers if anyone reports it, and no one's going to report it because it'll be considered collaboration and the Ministry for Security will be at their door tomorrow morning.

This is not fun and games. What Manning did has severe consequences for people who don't even know they're involved.

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #157)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:39 AM

264. Since you asked, there's a major difference between Manning and Dick Cheney.

 

As posted elsewhere on DU, Manning's information revealed immoral and illegal acts.

See Too Often Forgotten: An Amazingly Long List of What We Know Thanks to Private Manninghttp://www.democraticunderground.com/10023518698

"First, just a very partial list from "Cablegate" (keep in mind, this does not include many other bombshells that caused a stir in smaller nations abroad):

-Yemeni president lied to his own people, claiming his military carried out air strikes on militants actually done by U.S. All part of giving U.S. full rein in country against terrorists.

-Details on Vatican hiding big sex abuse cases in Ireland.

-U.S. tried to get Spain to curb its probes of Gitmo torture and rendition.

-Egyptian torturers trained by FBI—although allegedly to teach the human rights issues.

-State Dept memo: U.S.-backed 2009 coup in Honduras was 'illegal and unconstitutional.'”

-Cables on Tunisia appear to help spark revolt in that country. The country's ruling elite described as “The Family,” with Mafia-like skimming throughout the economy. The country's First Lady may have made massive profits off a private school.

-U.S. knew all about massive corruption in Tunisia back in 2006 but went on supporting the government anyway, making it the pillar of its North Africa policy.

-Cables showed the UK promised in 2009 to protect U.S interests in the official Chilcot inquiry on the start of the Iraq war.

-U.S. pressured the European Union to accept GM — genetic modification, that is.

-Washington was misled by our own diplomats on Russia-Georgia showdown.

-Extremely important historical document finally released in full: Ambassador April Glaspie's cable from Iraq in 1990 on meeting with Saddam Hussein before Kuwait invasion.

-The UK sidestepped a ban on housing cluster bombs. Officials concealed from Parliament how the U.S. is allowed to bring weapons on to British soil in defiance of treaty.

-New York Times: “From hundreds of diplomatic cables, Afghanistan emerges as a looking-glass land where bribery, extortion and embezzlement are the norm and the honest man is a distinct outlier.”

-Afghan vice president left country with $52 million “in cash.”

-Shocking levels of U.S. spying at the United Nations (beyond what was commonly assumed) and intense use of diplomats abroad in intelligence-gathering roles.

-Potential environmental disaster kept secret by the U.S. when a large consignment of highly enriched uranium in Libya came close to cracking open and leaking radioactive material into the atmosphere.

-U.S. used threats, spying, and more to try to get its way at last year's crucial climate conference in Copenhagen.

-Hundreds of cables detail U.S. use of diplomats as “sales” agents, more than previously thought, centering on jet rivalry of Boeing vs. Airbus. Hints of corruption and bribes.

-Millions in U.S. military aid for fighting Pakistani insurgents went to other gov't uses (or stolen) instead.

-Israel wanted to bring Gaza to the ”brink of collapse.”

-The U.S. secret services used Turkey as a base to transport terrorism suspects as part of its extraordinary rendition program.

-As protests spread in Egypt, cables revealed that strong man Suleiman was at center of government's torture programs, causing severe backlash for Mubarak after he named Suleiman vice president during the revolt. Other cables revealed or confirmed widespread Mubarak regime corruption, police abuses and torture, and claims of massive Mubarak famiiy fortune, significantly influencing media coverage and U.S. response.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/175879/too-often-forgotten-amazingly-long-list-what-we-know-thanks-private-manning#

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:12 PM

171. what pilot are you talking about?

I am not remembering a pilot.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #171)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:48 PM

189. Chelsea Manning revealed the video tape slaughter of civilians, including two Reuters journalists

by a Apache Helicopter in 2007. For some reason this war crime was "classified" and now the whistle blower of this atrocity is now sentenced to 35 years in prison, yet the perpetrators of the war crime and those who lied us into war live in a state of comfort and luxury. Those that commit war crimes live in luxury. Those that reveal the war crimes receive the wrath of the military and Obama administrations and receive a sentence of 35 years in prison. Yes We Can.

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Response to myrna minx (Reply #189)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:54 AM

217. I remembered that one

but did not think of the shooter as a "pilot". I suppose he could be, but I was thinking there would be a gunner. But I guess in my vast knowledge of helicopters that I got from watching "Blue Thunder" that the pilot could be the one doing the shooting.

But if that is all that was revealed. I can understand very well why it was classified, and agree that it should have been. I consider it neither a slaughter nor a war crime, but a tragic accident. And for all we know they were KIA, or are otherwise not living in luxury.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #217)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:53 AM

230. The war crimes...

...were when they (a) shot and killed wounded people on the ground, who were not a threat; and (b) shot and killed the good samaritan who tried to help the wounded. Both are war crimes under the Geneva Convention. A "quaint" document, to be sure; but we are signatories and agreed to be bound by those rules of warfare.

One may be able to rationalize the other actions taken (thinking the camerman's telephoto lens was an RPG; not knowing there were children in the good samaritan's vehicle). But I don't think the word "accident" applies to any of it.

There is no reason for the video to be classified, and there was no reason to deny the video's existence when Reuters tried to find out what had happened to their journalists who were killed in this incident.

Also, there were numerous instances of journalists being killed by the US or its allied forces in Iraq. My own opinion is that our military wanted all the journalists under their control, i.e. "embedded", and wanted to send a message to those who did not care to be embedded. The evidence for that is purely circumstantial but that is what I think.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #230)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:20 AM

234. not having actually read the Geneva Conventions

I guess right now I will have to take your word for it.

But they seem like silly "crimes" to me. Killing a wounded enemy is a crime? Why would I want to allow an enemy to recover and return to harm me?

Killing those who would aid a wounded enemy is a crime? Again, why would I want my enemy, or enemies to recover? Why isn't it very likely that those rushing to aid a wounded enemy are not also enemies?

When you think you are shooting at armed enemies, and it turns out you were not, then that is a deadly mistake, rather than a deliberate result. But they also said a loaded RPG was found at the scene. Untrue? Planted?

That incident happened on 12 July 2007.

The reason for keeping it classified is to not give propaganda to the enemy. If you think this incident was so horrible, you might consider that our side was trying to stop things like this

"April 18 – Four bombings occur in Baghdad, killing at least 198 in the April 18, 2007 Baghdad bombings"

If the accidental killing of a dozen civilians is a HUGE war crime, then what the fuck is the DELIBERATE killing of over 198 civilians?

and this

"May 6 – Roadside bombs killed eight American soldiers in separate attacks in Diyala province and Baghdad as sectarian tension rises. In all, at least 95 Iraqis were killed or found dead nationwide."

November 7 – 2007 becomes the most deadly year for American troops in Iraq.

"April 14 – Insurgents detonated a car bomb inside at a bus station in Karbala, killing at least 37 and wounding more than 150."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_in_Iraq#June

Well, at least the insurgents were not killing civilians like the American war criminals. Since we don't apparently have any video of them setting their bombs, let's put forward a video to make the Americans look like the bad guys.

We never should have invaded. I took part in a protest trying to stop it, wrote my congresspeople to no avail, but it is not like we made some people set bombs to kill their fellow Iraqis. And the death of 18 is not as big a war crime as the death of 198. I say the people who set those bombs need to be prosecuted for war crimes.

Oh, and the violence continues even after we have gone "During the first two weeks of July 2013, a series of coordinated bombings and shootings struck across several cities in Iraq, killing at least 389 people and injuring more than 800 others." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2013_Iraq_attacks

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #234)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:05 AM

243. OMG!

"But they seem like silly "crimes" to me."

Even battlefield Nazis during WWII in most instances honored the Geneva Convention. Our injured airmen that parachuted to the ground had their broken legs and arms treated by the Nazis. The exceptions have been noted and many were prosecuted at Nuremberg. Likewise the allies treated wounded battlefield Nazi soldiers. Maybe you should revisit the history to get an understanding of just how OFF you are.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #243)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:51 AM

250. Yes...and the invasion itself was illegal

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #243)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:34 AM

262. OMG indeed.

"I don't know what the term "war crimes" means but even if I did I'd find them silly"

Sometimes I've got the feeling that many people believe themselves to be liberals without reflecting at all. As if you can be opposed to the Geneva connvention and be a liberal at the same time. I just don't think that's possible. As always, these Manning threads produce a constantly dropped jaw on my side.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #262)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:49 PM

298. I find it more strange

that those who claim to be liberals get all excited and massively upset at our own country over the unintentional death of 12 but seemingly unconcerned about the intentional death of 198. Except when even that must be blamed on America because we invaded after all.

Personally I think WAR itself is a crime against humanity, and the notion that "we should try to kill each other and blow things up in a civilized way" is a little bit silly. Especially if one side cheats and the other side loses because they followed the rules.

It is a little bit like the recent Trek re-run I saw where they had a santized war done by computers, with no mess and no destruction of infrastructure, no real bombs or weapons, just the computers would decide who had been killed in an attack and those designated would report to be incinerated. Very neat and orderly - a war with rules, and with millions dying every year.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #298)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 07:36 PM

304. A treaty is a treaty.

The Geneva convention is not the product of some dreamy idiots who had no idea about the unavoidable realities of war. Exactly the opposite. IMO either live up to the convention or be honest about the fact that we no no longer regard it.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #243)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:04 AM

270. Yep. I remember how the Nazis 'treated' our servicemen

at Malmedy. I think they brought them cocoa - just before they rounded them up and machinegunned the lot.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #270)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:59 AM

278. That was a well known exception.

And well documented as an exception.

For the most part both sides were aware of the Geneva Convention. Remember, unlike WWI, there was no deadly gas on the battlefield during WWII. That was due to the Geneva Convention. The Geneva Convention isn't some outmoded guide of conduct as Cheney and Rumsfeld suggested.

But then, I'm no filthy Republican, so I don't think like a chickenhawk.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #278)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:52 PM

300. Except in WWII when you were caught fighting...

....out of a uniform you were shot on the spot.

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Response to EX500rider (Reply #300)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:28 AM

307. There are always atrocities. You're against the Geneva Convention?

No battlefield rules? Just whatever? Few liberal leaning individuals would take such a position.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #307)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:43 AM

309. Very for battlefield rules....esp the wearing of uniforms while fighting..

....or armbands to identify sides and avoid civilian causalities.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #243)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:22 PM

295. Which God would that be?

What I said was "Killing a wounded enemy is a crime? Why would I want to allow an enemy to recover and return to harm me?"

As in "a wounded enemy" not "a wounded and captured enemy". These people were wounded, not captured, and getting into another vehicle, they were seemingly about to avoid capture.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #234)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:37 AM

263. Oh come on...

...either there are rules, or there are not.

I can see the point of view that it is absurd to have rules in war. War is a nasty, deadly business. Rationality flies out the window and life is cheaper than dirt in war. Revenge is not an abstraction when you see your own friends blown to pieces. The object is to "win" (whatever that means), and "winning" means killing as many of your designated enemies as possible, apparently.

On the other hand, we hear all the time about how the other side (be it Iraquis, or the Syrian government, or...) have broken the rules, showing how evil they are: "He gassed his own people!" (with gas bought from us) being the canonical example when talking about Saddam Hussein and the Iraq war.

We signed up to be bound by rules of war. Either we follow the rules we signed up for, or we do not. If we do not choose to be bound by rules we ourselves have signed up for, then there is no moral high ground, and we cannot turn around and expect others to be bound by any rules.

The commission of an aggressive and illegal invasion was the very first war crime of the Iraq war. You want to talk about lots of people killed with bombs? Then you need look no further than Shock and Awe. Thousands of people, many of them civilians, were killed in that action alone.

If you don't think what those gunners did was so bad; then why do you think the video makes us look like bad guys?

I don't expect to convince you but this is how I see it.

BTW here is Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, that talks about the wounded:

Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.
To this end, the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgement pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.
An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.

The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.

The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #263)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:09 PM

294. when it comes to war I think there should only be one rule

1. Do not start one.

Once a war is started, then following rules does seem kinda silly, except in the propaganda sense. You want to be able to paint your enemies as savage, brutal barbarians and yourself as the honest and decent defenders of all that is right. The actual truth is bound to be a mixture of the two.

In this video though, the wounded are not able to be captured. The ground forces are still a ways away. If the other vehicle loads up the wounded and drives away, then those enemies have escaped.

The video can be made to make us look like bad guys because it has no context. All it shows is the twelve or so that we killed, including two wounded children. The 198 that our enemies killed, or the 95 that our enemies killed, including probably a number of children is not included for context.

Even among the Americans on this board, there was a huge amount of rage whipped up over this video. Almost nobody dared to mention the people we were supposedly fighting. But here they usually get a free pass anyway, since we were the ones who invaded.

And as for shock and awe. Well the odd thing about that is that it was apparently designed to minimize killing as much as possible. We dropped enough bombs there to kill everybody in the cities that we bombed. That bombing could have been much more destructive and deadly than it was.

Point is that once Saddam fell, a lot of the violence being directed at Iraqis was coming from other Iraqis, and presumbly our objective was to stop that. Something I consider to be a worthy objective.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #294)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:28 PM

301. +1

The whole idea of "civilized warfare" seems absurd. The rules went away when some people started killing other people.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:44 PM

2. Like it or not

Opinions are like @$$#0!3z, everyone has one and yours stinks.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:44 PM

3. Manning has asked to be referred to as Chelsea

But you probably know that

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #3)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:20 PM

129. Thats not going to happen in

Military prison population, it would necessitate segregation.

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Response to Historic NY (Reply #129)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:23 PM

131. Military prison isn't the same as civilian

Yes it will happen if fellow prisoners are told it will happen

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:44 PM

4. He's neither a hero nor a traitor. He is an actual whistleblower.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:49 PM

12. Leaker might be more accurate.

He didn't demonstrate much knowledge of what he was transmitting so it's hard to see how he was blowing the whistle on any particular crime or criminality.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #12)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:04 PM

38. I think you are confusing motive with knowledge...

His MOTIVE was that of a whistleblower, which in my book makes him one. I challenge you to prove otherwise. Whether he makes mistakes in what information he "leaked", as most humans make at times, doesn't change the FACT that his motive was to expose wrongdoing in our military establishment. That's different than someone who's just profiting from money or other favors to SELL information to the enemy. That person would be a spy and a traitor. To equate Manning with someone like that is in many of our opinions ridiculous.

Somehow there's this notion that a "leaker" can't be a "whistleblower", as if the government suddenly wants to add some additional Webster's Dictionary language for what constitutes "leaking". Daniel Ellsberg also LEAKED information with the Pentagon Papers. He was also a WHISTLEBLOWER!

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #38)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:10 PM

48. Ellsberg knew what he was leaking because he helped write it. Manning didn't. nt

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #48)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:04 PM

114. And AFAIK, Ellsberg made no money off his release, neither did Manning. Nor did Ellsberg's helpers,

the NYT and Gravel, who read the text of it into the Congressional Record to protect it from Nixon.

It was necessary because of Nixon's rogue actions, including subverting and firing the government's legal team to suppress it. Anyone who doesn't know the depth of that should read John Dean's books.

The release of that book spurred youth to get into the streets in hundreds of thousands across the USA and ushered in a progressive era to change things. Now, people are just looking for the next new shiny and seem to have faith like religious cultists that if they jsut say so, the seat of power will be their inheritance.

The 1% want us to believe in some kind of magic. Because they know it doesn't work. And then we have those who follow the words of the man who profited more than anyone off Manning and tells them to vote for the party that gave us the Patriot Act, Blackwater, ENRON, Halliburton and KBR.

No, they made money off Manning's hardship and these media voices are not our friends. JMHO.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:04 PM

36. How could he be a "whistleblower" when he wasn't

aware of everything he leaked? Threw them to wikiLEAKS.

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Response to Cha (Reply #36)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:13 PM

53. I see your point, but by definition of whistleblower he actually uncovered

Govt abuse. Whereas Snowden we're still dealing in hypotheticals. Sure the NSA may have occasionally fucked up, but the data points to unintentional fuck ups, whereas what Manning revealed points to intentional wrong doing. Manning can get out in 7yrs for good behavior and time served, Snowden needs to state his case.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #53)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:36 PM

73. If only Manning had just whistelblowed through the correct channels..

what he knew to be very wrong.

"7 years" doesn't sound too bad if that's possible for good behavior. And, yes, snowden does need to accept responsibility for his actions.

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Response to Cha (Reply #73)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:37 PM

77. I agree. It's sad because he obviously has psychological problems and needs help,

Not jail.

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Response to Cha (Reply #73)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:50 PM

93. The channels are a JOKE! Sibel Edmonds would LAUGH you in the face. She tried that way...

... and has proven to subsequent whistleblowers that "going through channels" DOES NOT WORK when the system is as broken as ours is now! As a person with a law degree, she probably knew how far she could bend the rules and not wind up in prison, but most of what she knows still hasn't been made available to the public or has been covered up both by our government and compliant corporatist owned and compliant "mainstream media". A lot of who she's pointed fingers at haven't been investigated as well.

Heck she had the current head of the FISA Court, Reggie Walton "randomly assigned" TWICE to two of her different court cases where she attempted to go to court to be heard on the stand and tell what she knew. In both cases Walton (who also hovered of the joke of a prosecution of Scooter Libby in the Valerie Plame incident), used "State Secrets Privilege" which is the common methodology if they can't turn away a case for "standing" reasons to facilitate the coverups that have been going on for years.

If Maning had tried to go through channels instead of WikiLeaks, do you think any of us would have known about the crap that he exposed like the Reuter's journalists being carelessly killed by our troops? NO!

And I'll bet there are countless other whistleblowers that tried to "go through channels" that perhaps even Manning heard about earlier that we haven't even heard about because they're situations have been covered up too!

All sending Manning to prison does is send a message to other would-be whistleblowers in the future, like Snowden, that there only shot at getting their story out and not winding up being tortured and buried in prison is to leave the country and have a lot of bargaining chips. I don't think that Snowden will be the last person that plays this game. And our security could be made better if we actually had a responsible government in place that did provide for some outside entities set up by groups like the ACLU, Amnesty International, EPIC, EFF, etc. to have some form of oversight power in the government that is managed so that those that do have information that the public needs to have, they have a more organized and trustworthy methodology of providing that oversight. What we have now is the Wild, Wild West. And it IS our government and the corrupt individuals that have lead it over the last decade or so's fault in allowing it to get in that state.

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #93)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:52 PM

98. NO, they are not!! Manning wouldn't be looking at 35 fucking years.

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Response to Cha (Reply #98)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:55 PM

104. You are confusing prosecuting whistleblowers with prosecuting REAL wrongdoers they expose!

The Channels ARE a joke in terms of having our government ANSWER for wrongdoing that a whistleblower exposes? They've not been working. And when you KILL THE MESSENGER in terms of putting in prison the whistleblower or other ways of silencing and intimidating them, then that just PROVES that it is a joke! And the fact that so many here like you just don't get that, makes it even more of a joke!

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #104)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:45 AM

249. Watch this one

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #93)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:32 AM

261. +1

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:45 PM

5. A different site!

 

That's progress!

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Response to burnodo (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:25 PM

133. yup... my 1st thought.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:45 PM

6. +1 The little creep knew the consequences of his actions and chose

to break the law anyway. If you can't do the time don't do the crime. Did he think noting would happen?

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Response to doc03 (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:47 PM

8. creep?

 

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Response to burnodo (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:49 PM

10. twerp?

 

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:50 PM

16. hero?

 

whistleblower? citizen?

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Response to burnodo (Reply #16)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:55 PM

22. convicted... period

He is a convicted criminal.

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Response to DontTreadOnMe (Reply #22)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:00 PM

28. criminality determined by the state being the only determinant factor

 

Harriet Tubman was a criminal as well.

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Response to burnodo (Reply #28)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:03 PM

33. plenty of people think he was guilty, just not the State

your opinion on the matter really doesn't matter anymore...

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Response to DontTreadOnMe (Reply #33)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:05 PM

40. well, then

 

why reply?

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Response to DontTreadOnMe (Reply #33)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:36 PM

74. Then is Nelson Mandela the leader of South Africa? He was a "criminal" and...

... shouldn't have "mattered anymore" by your definition. Is Don Siegelman a "criminal" who shouldn't matter any more too?

Face it dude... This country now is starting to have a lot more POLITICAL PRISONERS! Our justice system is broken!

1) Manning is serving 35 years in prison. Those who he's shown to have committed arguably greater crimes aren't being held accountable.
2) John Kiriakou is in prison for being a whistleblower on the crimes of torture our nation has committed, and those who've put that program in place aren't being held accountable.
3) Deric Lostutter, the online hacker that exposed the Stuebenville rapists and authorities wrongfully not pursuing justice there, may face 10 years in prison whereas the rapists themselves at most are serving 2 years and have had CNN journalists crying for their punishment.
4) And of course Snowden probably faces far more punishment than the criminals he's exposed of wrongdoing of all of our civil liberties rights too!

Not to mention tons of banksters getting off scott free while so many with up side down mortgages are losing their homes, etc.

Our justice system needs fixing. And those like you that try to write off those that are victims of it are just making the problem worse!

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #74)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:40 PM

149. Well said.

Law and justice is not the same thing....we got lots of laws but little actual justice.

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #74)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:36 AM

213. Perfectly said.

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #74)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:05 AM

279. Our country is nothing like apartheid South Africa

You're just claiming that because it is sometimes justified, it always is.

That government deserved to be brought down. So have several others in history.

Ours, however, does not. It is a human endeavor and thus not perfect. But it does work and can change - see the Civil Rights Act, the increasing acceptance of gay marriage to the point many states allow it.

The law, created by duly elected officials, and not having been challenged as unconstitutional even by Manning, is worthy of being followed. We are entitled to defend ourselves and to classify documents where necessary. If we want change in our government, we have a chance of that.



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Response to treestar (Reply #279)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:58 AM

283. The point is that just because our legal system says he's guilty doesn't mean it "ends" now...

... since in many cases like Mandela's those that are convicted of a "crime" are later to be found to be persecuted by a system that protects wrongdoers and goes after those that try to point to their wrongdoing. Now whether we have a government like South Aftrica's is not the issue. The fact that circumstances change, and that later someone like Mandela was found to have been put in prison for political reasons and therefore can later live a life free from that "conviction" when those outside recognize the injustices and correct the system to change it.

As I note, our system now is persecuting those outside the power structure for doing whistleblowing or just challenging the system's current unfairness. I would put Aaron Schwartz also in that latter category too. Although not a whistleblower, he was recognizing the way the system was rigged to reward only those who are wealthy with knowledge that should be something that all could profit from. Even if he perhaps didn't go about it completely in the right way, he was facing penalties way too harsh for what he did, and took his life rather than face those penalties. And those penalties are especially harsh when you consider how others that abuse our laws like banksters (who either break them, or pay government officials to change laws to benefit them to allow them to carry on corruption unpunished).

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Response to cascadiance (Reply #283)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 11:09 AM

310. Our country is so good it even has a whistleblower Protection Act

and a procedure for people in government to use if they see something wrong. I am not down with the people who dismiss that. Other countries don't even have that, or a way to challenge the law, even when the law is brought about democratically.

Our government may not be perfect, but it is the best there is and it does not deserve to be brought down. We do not deserve to have people sneer at the WPA. Had these people we are talking about used it, I would be far more sympathetic of their actions.

But just ranting on about how we are the worst country ever makes them look unhinged.

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Response to treestar (Reply #310)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:00 PM

311. And it is "so good" that these whistleblower "protection" acts DON'T protect security whistleblowers

Ask congressman Jerry Nadler, who has constantly tried to fix these bills so that they also protect whistleblowers, and has also try to reform the usage of "state secrets privilege" which GRATUITOUSLY has been used to protect the defense and intelligence departments from being brought to court not only by security whistleblowers like Sibel Edmonds, but also by victims of actions of these parts of government such as torture victims like Maher Arar.

This article talks about how the current whistleblower's protection act that you cite doesn't apply to intelligence community whistleblowers as they are "exempted" from its protection... Nadler had earlier fought to try to amend this to throw this exemption out but wasn't able to do so.

http://www.whistleblowersblog.org/2013/06/articles/whistleblowers-government-empl/terrorism/nsa-whistleblower-case-highlights-lack-of-protection-for-intelligence-employees/

Nadler explains very well to Truthout how State Secrets Privilege has been abused to prevent government accountability to both whistleblowers and victims of actions by the security state.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/2845%3Aone-on-one-with-rep-jerrold-nadler

And now when the government moreso than it has ever done in the past is going out and criminalizing whistleblowing, especially when brought against the security parts of our government, I'm sorry, what you say here is SIMPLY NOT TRUE! REAL protection for whistleblowers to do what they are trying to do and expose wrongdoing by these parts of government doesn't exist. Either such whistleblowing is rendered ineffective if the person wants to avoid going to prison (i.e. Sibel Edmonds) or they feel they need to leave the country or face heavy prison penalties like Snowden, Manning, and Kiriakou). The world that Daniel Ellsberg lived in that gave a whistleblower the opportunity to change things for the better really just doesn't exist today. Whether it is the justice department more aggressively punishing whistleblowers than other wrongdoers, or the press basically being more in the back pocket of the wealthy and government powers than they've been before has lead to this state of affairs that needs probably almost revolutionary change. I'm thinking something like a prolonged general strike and the large pain it will create before things change if people get pushed in to the corner enough might be what it takes to force those in power to be answerable for the institutionalized lawbreaking they are doing against our constitution.

As I said, if you talk to whistleblowers, and I've talked personally to at least one or two of them, they would echo what I'm saying here. This current state of affairs of our government's current DISFUNCTION when it comes to providing transparency and protection for those who want to report wrongdoing in its intelligence areas IS the reason why someone like Snowden left the country. If we didn't have the recent history if many whistleblowers being pushed aside like Sibel Edmonds, Russell Tice, and Bradley/Chelsea Manning, I imagine that perhaps he might have gone Daniel Ellsberg's route and stayed and fought it here. I wonder if Ellsberg might have left the country too if he had to release the Pentagon Papers in today's current environment then, in order for the public to hear his allegations.

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Response to DontTreadOnMe (Reply #33)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:54 PM

102. Did you mean "not just the State"

or are you trying to state some dark truth here?

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Response to dgauss (Reply #102)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:30 PM

136. it doesn't matter, I sent out a 5 alarm to the fire department

The Hair Of Fire on DU is at full blaze

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Response to DontTreadOnMe (Reply #136)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:57 PM

194. Hardly full blaze...

Why can't you respond substantively? Rhetorically stated of course.

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Response to elias7 (Reply #194)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:04 AM

198. Not full blaze? I saw someone here on DU claiming Manning should win the Nobel Prize

The pro-Manning flames are 100 feet tall.

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Response to DontTreadOnMe (Reply #136)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:55 AM

219. With talk like that -

You REALLY need to remove that Bernie Saunders image. You're not really fooling anyone.

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Response to Hell Hath No Fury (Reply #219)


Response to DontTreadOnMe (Reply #22)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:00 PM

288. And no one is ever wrongly convicted. n/t

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:46 PM

7. Traitor and treason have very specific meanings in the USA

and Manning was not convicted of treason. He was cleared off aiding the enemy.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:49 PM

14. Don't sweat the details.

MD usually links to the most homophobic sites around to prove his point. We're never sure what the point is, but it's usually so far to the Right the Tea Party would call him a little too extreme.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #7)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 10:29 PM

135. I also don't get the 'traitor to his country' phrase. It's more of a political term than legal one.

The word has lost its meaning now, especially after being abused by the chickenhawk RWers like O'Reilly, Hannity, Beck and Limbaugh. And as you say, he wasn't found guilty of that or aiding the enemy.

Treason is far beyond Manning's abilities:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold

That entry describes a man of the world, who knew well what he was doing, actively worked to defeat the USA and hand it over the 'enemy' of that time, Great Britain.

Manning did what he did in his own way to save his ideal of the USA, but sloppily.

I also feel he was used by others for their purposes, and they were not benign.



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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:48 PM

9. Nice diagnosis, Dr Frist

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:49 PM

11. Not a traitor

He didn't "switch sides" like John Walker. He divulged information out of a sense of justice. You may not agree with his sense of justice, and it may have been misguided in some ways. But there was nothing "traitorous" in his intent or actions.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:49 PM

13. I'm no Manning fan, but "treason" has a specific meaning

And his actions did not have the mens rea for treason. He did something bad that hurt a lot of people all over the world, but he's not a traitor.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:50 PM

15. Piss off! n/t

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #15)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:51 PM

17. +1

Can we say that now?

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #15)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:58 AM

231. +2

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:51 PM

18. Whatever he is, or isn't, we are in dire need of more like him.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:52 PM

19. I see nothing wrong with telling the world that a part of your country is barbaric.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #19)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 11:42 PM

184. There ya' go. +1 n/t

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:54 PM

20. He was badly used by Assange and others, no doubt about that.

CNN is apparently his latest beneficiary. Nevertheless he committed a very serious crime, and his motives as he expressed them at the time were not exactly honorable. And while the military court in my view dealt with him as fairly as he could hope for, and he was not ultimately convicted treason, it's hard to see how his actions could be viewed as anything else, whatever his once and future motives might have been.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #20)


Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:55 PM

21. Blah, blah, blah, time of war, blah, blah, blah.

He's a whistleblower. I don't care if we're at war (who is it with now? Eastasia?) or not.

What Manning did was right.

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #21)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:56 PM

23. Blah, blah, blah... he was CONVICTED for his criminal actions

Your opinion isn't going to change that fact.

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Response to DontTreadOnMe (Reply #23)


Response to TheBlackAdder (Reply #182)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:27 AM

238. WOW.. your post about guards is revealing

I think you need some therapy.

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Response to Vashta Nerada (Reply #21)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:53 AM

216. We are not at war

We haven't been at war since 1945. Only Congress can declare war, something it hasn't done for a very very long time. In my opinion, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, they were all unconstitutional.

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:56 PM

24. That would be Chelsea, okay? Small thing to many. HUGE thing to her.

Easy for ALL of us to honor.

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Response to Stinky The Clown (Reply #24)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:02 PM

30. Written before the change n/t

 

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #30)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:08 PM

43. Here at DU, the "edit post" function works really well.

Its pretty intuitive, too, but if you need instructions, I'd be happy to provide them. Just lemme know, k?

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #30)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:19 AM

245. So fix it, then.

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #30)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:07 AM

253. Well now you know. Why not edit your frigging OP?....

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Response to michigandem58 (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:58 PM

25. Like it or not, most people on this site know you are a right-winger

You bash the left constantly while pretending to be a liberal yourself, but many of us can see through your act. You will never be half the person Chelsea Manning is.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #25)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:03 PM

35. rec

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #25)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:24 PM

62. +1000

Obviously

RL

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #25)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:29 PM

65. Chelsea Manning's expressed purpose was to bash the Obama administration which s/he despised.

For all intents and purposes Manning is, or was, a RW basher. Refusing to endorse a basher's bash doesn't make anyone a "right winger" except in upsidedown-land, which is apparently a place many here reside.

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #65)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:35 PM

71. We can see through your act as well, you constantly smear the left

You have absolutely no clue in hell what her "expressed purpose" was, you just make crap like this up all the time.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #71)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:46 PM

86. "Expressed" means s/he said it, and Manning said it, in May 2010

transcript here:

(12:52:33 PM) bradass87: Hilary Clinton, and several thousand diplomats around the world are going to have a heart attack when they wake up one morning, and finds an entire repository of classified foreign policy is available, in searchable format to the public… =L

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/manning-lamo-logs/

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #86)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:50 PM

92. That does not say what you claim it does, not even close

Nowhere in that quote does she say her express purpose is to smear Obama, she does not even say anything remotely like that. This is exactly what I was talking about, you constantly make shit up to smear people. You pretend you have evidence but that "evidence" is usually shit like this that does not say anything even remotely like you claimed it did.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #92)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:51 PM

95. It's a direct quotation. Your agreement doesn't make it any less a RW bash. nt

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Response to ucrdem (Reply #95)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:54 PM

101. Yes, it is a direct quote that says nothing like you claimed it said

Your dishonesty shines for all to see when you claim one thing and then present a quote that does not match your claim at all as "evidence".

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #101)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 09:57 PM

107. He wanted to embarrass Hillary who was Obama's Secretary of State. He did.

Mission accomplished. If you can find another motive expressed in that chat log, you're welcome to post it.

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