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Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:32 PM

Kentucky theater bans ‘The Butler’ because Jane Fonda is ‘the enemy’


A Kentucky theater owner has banned the number one movie in America, The Butler, from his theater because he says that actress Jane Fonda is “an enemy of the United States of America.”

......................

“I was a military flight instructor during the Vietnam War, taught hundreds of pilots to fly, many of whom Ms. Fonda clapped and cheered as they were shot down and killed,” the retired Marine explained. “That’s treason, right in our Constitution… aid and comfort to the enemy.”

Boutwell said that it would be a “terrible dishonorment on my part to give money to a woman” such as Fonda.

He added that it would be “throwing gas on the fire” to support a “person of treason” as she portrayed a “patriotic lady” like Nancy Reagan.

“I’m a former Marine, I’ve got a long memory,” Boutwell pointed out. “I just — I cannot give up to the enemy, and Ms. Fonda, as far as I’m concerned, is an enemy of the United States of America. That’s exactly how I feel about it.”


more:
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/08/22/kentucky-theater-bans-the-butler-because-jane-fonda-is-the-enemy/

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Reply Kentucky theater bans ‘The Butler’ because Jane Fonda is ‘the enemy’ (Original post)
kpete Aug 2013 OP
shenmue Aug 2013 #1
leftynyc Aug 2013 #2
joeybee12 Aug 2013 #24
MADem Aug 2013 #111
brewens Aug 2013 #127
Blue_Tires Aug 2013 #34
7962 Aug 2013 #64
hobbit709 Aug 2013 #3
Bake Aug 2013 #35
caseymoz Aug 2013 #95
unblock Aug 2013 #4
etherealtruth Aug 2013 #29
Aristus Aug 2013 #5
gollygee Aug 2013 #27
DissidentVoice Aug 2013 #120
mountain grammy Aug 2013 #48
Mr Dixon Aug 2013 #52
RiffRandell Aug 2013 #62
BillyRibs Aug 2013 #63
deutsey Aug 2013 #65
rwsanders Aug 2013 #68
Grins Aug 2013 #84
The Wizard Aug 2013 #86
grasswire Aug 2013 #101
salimbag Aug 2013 #105
maddiemom Aug 2013 #118
DissidentVoice Aug 2013 #121
Hekate Aug 2013 #91
pinboy3niner Aug 2013 #97
War Horse Aug 2013 #130
The Wizard Aug 2013 #131
efhmc Aug 2013 #132
life long demo Aug 2013 #6
dhill926 Aug 2013 #12
appleannie1 Aug 2013 #26
bobclark86 Aug 2013 #56
Warren DeMontague Aug 2013 #7
ieoeja Aug 2013 #8
Robb Aug 2013 #14
MisterP Aug 2013 #9
SCantiGOP Aug 2013 #80
MADem Aug 2013 #112
HereSince1628 Aug 2013 #10
Link Speed Aug 2013 #17
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2013 #11
LanternWaste Aug 2013 #21
Nuclear Unicorn Aug 2013 #22
joeybee12 Aug 2013 #25
BOG PERSON Aug 2013 #13
TheMightyFavog Aug 2013 #15
Bake Aug 2013 #36
TheMightyFavog Aug 2013 #16
panader0 Aug 2013 #18
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #76
pinboy3niner Aug 2013 #82
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #83
JI7 Aug 2013 #19
Octafish Aug 2013 #20
Bucky Aug 2013 #44
Tom Ripley Aug 2013 #72
nyquil_man Aug 2013 #23
Bake Aug 2013 #38
Archae Aug 2013 #28
The Wizard Aug 2013 #87
pinboy3niner Aug 2013 #88
snappyturtle Aug 2013 #30
Hissyspit Aug 2013 #69
The American Sickle Aug 2013 #75
MisterP Aug 2013 #79
JohnnyLib2 Aug 2013 #31
tsuki Aug 2013 #32
Bucky Aug 2013 #41
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #77
Submariner Aug 2013 #106
MADem Aug 2013 #113
SCVDem Aug 2013 #33
Bucky Aug 2013 #43
City Lights Aug 2013 #37
davidpdx Aug 2013 #39
phylny Aug 2013 #123
Bucky Aug 2013 #40
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #78
Bucky Aug 2013 #93
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #94
Bucky Aug 2013 #98
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #99
RockaFowler Aug 2013 #42
lastlib Aug 2013 #45
lobodons Aug 2013 #46
Phentex Aug 2013 #50
TransitJohn Aug 2013 #47
niyad Aug 2013 #49
oldandhappy Aug 2013 #51
treestar Aug 2013 #53
dionysus Aug 2013 #54
niyad Aug 2013 #55
TreasonousBastard Aug 2013 #57
Initech Aug 2013 #58
valerief Aug 2013 #59
Downtown Hound Aug 2013 #60
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #73
elephant hunter Aug 2013 #61
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #85
elephant hunter Aug 2013 #96
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #100
Paladin Aug 2013 #114
Capt. Obvious Aug 2013 #66
edbermac Aug 2013 #67
DhhD Aug 2013 #70
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #71
Tom Ripley Aug 2013 #74
Booster Aug 2013 #81
dusty trails Aug 2013 #89
Smarmie Doofus Aug 2013 #128
Hekate Aug 2013 #90
marmar Aug 2013 #92
steve2470 Aug 2013 #102
Peaceplace80 Aug 2013 #103
Heather MC Aug 2013 #104
Spitfire of ATJ Aug 2013 #107
LineReply .
blkmusclmachine Aug 2013 #108
4bucksagallon Aug 2013 #109
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2013 #116
tclambert Aug 2013 #110
GoneOffShore Aug 2013 #115
maddiemom Aug 2013 #117
DissidentVoice Aug 2013 #122
DissidentVoice Aug 2013 #119
EC Aug 2013 #124
Rex Aug 2013 #125
shenmue Aug 2013 #126
Smarmie Doofus Aug 2013 #129
adieu Aug 2013 #133

Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:34 PM

1. Free speech much?

Teabagger pinhead.

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Response to shenmue (Reply #1)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:36 PM

2. She was entitled to hers

And he's entitled to his.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #2)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:26 PM

24. Not if he had a contract with the distributor...nt

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #24)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:20 AM

111. I hope he does, and I hope the distributor sues him blue.

Someone should tell the idiot that Mrs. Reagan was pleased that Fonda was playing her--hell, Jane is a good looking woman, and it's never a bad thing if someone nice looking plays you in a film.

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Response to MADem (Reply #111)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:55 PM

127. She's also good as the boss lady in "News Room". I was surprised to see her

in that.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #2)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:47 AM

34. Then I hope to god he's at least consistent

if he's going down this route...

Because there are countless potential "enemies" of the USA in Hollywood...

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Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #34)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:40 PM

64. Apparently he has been when it comes to her. Said he's never shown a Fonda movie.

So unless he is contracted to a distribution company to HAVE to show it, it's his theater he can show what he wants.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:37 PM

3. If there was a cure for stupid, someone would get rich.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:11 AM

35. We've been working on that

But so far the Stoopid is impervious to all treatments! It seems to worm it's way into the brain in such a way that the host welcomes and even embraces it. The host then defends the Stoopid against all attempts to remove it.

Bake

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #3)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:03 PM

95. That's a cure nobody will take.


Because anybody who needs it is too stupid to take it.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:40 PM

4. i like it when wingnut vendors spout off, it helps prevent me accidentally patronizing their stores.

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Response to unblock (Reply #4)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:04 PM

29. That is my thought n/t

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:43 PM

5. I love how these fuckheads hate Jane Fonda, even after 50 fucking years,

but never express hatred or distrust for the people who sent them over there in the first place...

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:41 PM

27. +1

And they don't seem too shaken up by W lying to get us in a war.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #27)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:12 PM

120. Or his so-called "service" in the Texas ANG

I was in the ANG.

Someone who cavalierly disregarded regs and DISOBEYED DIRECT ORDERS like Bush did would have likely found themselves in the wing king's (a Brigadier General who really got shot at with AAA over Vietnam) office with a boot in his butt and a BCD in his back pocket.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:18 AM

48. Exactly what my Vietnam Vet husband said!

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:57 AM

52. AGREED

That is exactly the point, they went over there for nothing, some were drafted and he is mad at Ms Fonda? WTF

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:01 PM

62. Exactly. nt

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:22 PM

63. Well Said!

 

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:51 PM

65. +1

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:06 PM

68. Been wondering the same thing myself (any input from Vietnam vets?)...

They hate "liberals" because they said stuff to them when they came back, and vote republican so more kids can get shot up and traumatized. Don't get it at all.
Make me wonder if some of those shouting weren't provocateurs.

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:44 PM

84. Oh, Sweet Holy Ba'al! Been there.

I agree. I get into these arguments from the Fonda haters and get'em really pissed.

After the Pentagon Papers, the Mai Lai trial, McNamara's shaming in The Fog of War, McMaster's book Dereliction of Duty, Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest, Fitzgerald 's Fire in the Lake, Stanley Karnow's Vietnam: A History, Sheehan's A Bright Shining Lie, after all that, and more - it's Fonda's fault? Srsly?

In Robert Dalleck's book, Nixon & Kissinger, he writes that the Nixon tapes have Nixon admitting in 1969 that the war cannot be won and we have to get out. On tape - Kissinger warns Nixon that he can't get out because - they have to win reelection in '72.

In that time period, 20,000 Americans died and 98,000 were wounded. All to get Richard Phucking Nixon re-elected.

Fonda? Srsly? Defend that, Marine.

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Response to Grins (Reply #84)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:12 PM

86. In 1967

I went to Vietnam. That was the same year Defense Secretary Robert Strange McNamara said they knew the war was lost. And therein is the real reason people, especially Vietnam Veterans, should be angry. Jane Fonda provided a scapegoat and diversion for the war mongers and profiteers who got rich perpetrating the communist menace. At what point did Vietnam attack or threaten the United States?
In fact, Ho Chi Minh wanted us as an ally after evicting the French imperialists who were there to rape Vietnam of its resources. On Vietnam's first Independence Day while Ho was giving a speech using these words "We hold these truths to be self evident that we are endowed by or creator with the inalienable right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness." And when an American plane flew over the crowd cheered.
Joseph McCarthy and Richard Nixon made red baiting an art form and successful political strategy. So much so that Lyndon Johnson succumbed to the Rostows and Dulles brothers and attacked Vietnam so as to not look like he was soft on communism. Hubris, jingoism and unwarranted fear got us into that terrible fiasco.
Am I still pissed off? Yes.
Nothing is more immoral than war for profit.

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Response to The Wizard (Reply #86)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:34 PM

101. Thank you for your service.

And welcome home.

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Response to The Wizard (Reply #86)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:27 AM

105. Vietnam 1967

As a young man during this time, I could not get a job based on my draft status of 4A. I joined the navy to see the world, and ended up on the rivers of Vietnam. The Vietnamese people suffered horribly during this time, much more than the U.S. military personnel. We should all be ashamed. The U.S. government used us like mercenaries (if you call $300/month merc pay) to fight the best fighters in S.E. Asia. They won, and we learned NOTHING!!!

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Response to The Wizard (Reply #86)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:07 AM

118. You are so right about the background, and Ho Chi Minh originally wanting our support before

turning to the Communists. Any unbiased historical account will bear this out.

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Response to The Wizard (Reply #86)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:17 PM

121. A much-overdue salute

I served in the ANG, but of course after Vietnam. However, I had many colleagues who had been there, done that and gotten shat upon afterward.

A good friend of mine, a retired USCG Reserve Lieutenant Commander, was a USN Aviator off the USS Forrestal (he was there when it burned). When he got home as a young Lieutenant J.G., he really did get spat upon in an airport.

Billy Joel made a pretty good quote: "I agree it was an immoral war, but those guys got fucked. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial should have been a soldier with a screw going through him."

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:55 PM

91. good point, that

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Response to Aristus (Reply #5)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:58 PM

97. These things also factor into PTSD

There's the war experience, and experiencing the carnage, certainly.

Discovering that everything you believed was true actually is false also turns your world upside-down--even for those who may not have served in combat.

I returned to spend 18 months in an Army hospital being treated for my wounds. I followed the news and got angrier and angrier, feeling that I'd been lied to, used, abused, exploited, and betrayed.

And, though both parties planned to pull out of VN, we were still sending kids over there to die and to be maimed.

It wasn't until many years later, after suppressing VN very deeply, that I opened up and began talking to people about it--including my brother. My little brother, who'd served with me in VN, told me what our Mom said back then: "Pinboy was never so angry before he went to Vietnam."

The problem for so many of us who felt that sense of betrayal was that there wasn't one discrete place to pin the blame. Our war was prosecuted by a succession of administrations of both parties and a multitude of officials who'd promoted it even when they knew it was wrong morally, or simply that it was bad policy.

Those of us who were there have a lot of complex psychological and emotional reactions to it. For some, Jane Fonda is a hot-button.

But VN vets are as heterogeneous as the rest of our society, and not all of us are Jane Fonda haters.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #97)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:14 PM

130. Great post n/t

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #97)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 03:16 PM

131. Every day in Vietnam

I thought about home, and every day since returning memories of that war surface, even if only briefly. It was days of boredom punctuated by sheer terror.

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Response to The Wizard (Reply #131)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 04:09 PM

132. 2 bilaws are Viet Nan vets and will never see any of her movies.

Both men were very gungho career army guys (long retired now) and I have known them since I was a child and they have never, ever been the same since coming back, mentally or physically.

The following is one of the reasons they feel the way they do about JF:

"In 1972 Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden and others traveled to North Vietnam to give their support to the North Vietnamese's Government. When she returned to the United States, she advised the news media that all of the American Prisoners of War were being well treated and were not being tortured.
As the American POWs returned home in 1973, they spoke out about the inhumane treatment and torture they had suffered as prisoners of war. Their stories directly contradicted Jane Fonda's earlier statements of 1972. Jane Fonda, in her response to these new allegations, referred to the returning POWs as being 'hypocrites and liars'."

I know she was very young has since apologized but the memories of these vets run long. These are not right wing men and I think it is wrong of us who have not experienced the horror of this war (or any war) and all the evils attached to it to bunch theses veterans all together. As for me, I give both of my guys some space on this one, but I plan on seeing the movie as I have seen many others of hers.

I do think it is deeply ironic that she is playing Nancy Reagen.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:43 PM

6. I have a feeling that even if Jane Fonda wasn't in that movie, they might not have

shown it.

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Response to life long demo (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 05:57 PM

12. yep........

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Response to life long demo (Reply #6)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:39 PM

26. Thinking the same thing

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Response to life long demo (Reply #6)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:11 PM

56. Jane Fonda is a great excuse...

it makes up for the theater owner being pissed about a movie showing black people as humans and not farm equipment.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:43 PM

7. People need to fucking let it go.

Seriously.

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Response to kpete (Original post)


Response to ieoeja (Reply #8)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:02 PM

14. He's just trying to embiggen us all. nt

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 04:51 PM

9. when'd Nancy go to war? "dishonorment"?

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Response to MisterP (Reply #9)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:04 PM

80. Nancy went to war

right after Ron single-handedly won WWII and the Korean War. Plus, he killed most of the Indians in the Old West.

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Response to MisterP (Reply #9)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:24 AM

112. Don't put this shit on Nancy--she's got her faults, but she did NOT object to Fonda playing her.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 05:04 PM

10. Hill no, we ain'na ferget'n

Vets are like everyone else, entitled to have an opinion...

But I gotta say, it's really sort of strange for me to have been a member of an entirely volunteer unit during Vietnam, a unit whose members overwhelmingly thought the war was overseen by a bunch of traitors identified by Daniel Ellsberg.

If we could have found them, I have no doubt we would have had wall posters of Jane Fonda as Barbarella all over our barracks cubicles

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #10)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:46 PM

17. Same here

 

She was our heroine.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 05:40 PM

11. I wonder how many people taking umbrage with this turn of events

applaud those who claim to turn off/change TVs that do NOT belong to them for showing Fox News?

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #11)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:54 PM

21. Possibly you should ask them specifically for an answer to your quite sincere query...?

Possibly you should ask them specifically for an answer to your quite sincere query...?

Or simply wander further down the passive-aggressive (yet very, very clever!) road. Which does indeed, accurately illustrate the dramatic sincerity of your piqued, peaked, and most plucked curiosity.

Good luck!

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #21)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:10 PM

22. More like

I'm not going to spend my time hunting down every silly "I changed someone else's TV" thread, list the names of those agreeing with that silliness and then cross-reference them with this equal silliness.

I are people who applaud censoring what other people do with their own property. And there are also people who grouse about what this theatre owner does with his own property. Is it too hard to believe there is overlap in those groups? If so the issue isn't whether or not I go all NSA on them but whether or not they can muster a little intellectual honesty.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #21)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:27 PM

25. Thank you...

She/he seems to be doing that to every single thread in GD...oh well, someone's gotta have a hobby.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:01 PM

13. i wonder if the theater owner remembered to boycott the film Monster-In-Law??

hmmm???

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:13 PM

15. Why can't these people just let it go already?

It's been forty goddman years, Ms. fonda has apologized on numerous occasions. LET IT GO.

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Response to TheMightyFavog (Reply #15)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:14 AM

36. Obviously a lot of people learned nothing from Vietnam

And that's a damn shame.

It also proves Santayana correct, as we've seen in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bake

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:17 PM

16. I wonder how this guy will feel when he finds out...

That Nancy Reagan herself said that she approved of the casting decision!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:47 PM

18. "I cannot give up to the enemy"

That happened many years ago. Why is he not still in the jungles of Vietnam? He gave up.

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Response to panader0 (Reply #18)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:50 PM

76. How many publicity-seeking "vets" were ever "in the jungles of Vietnam"? Why assume he was?

 

The number of troops in Viet Nam were in the millions.

"9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975."

http://www.uswings.com/vietnamfacts.asp


And this guy was one of them? Please excuse the skepticism, but I doubt it.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #76)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:03 PM

82. That's worldwide; 3,403,000 served in-country

Vietnam War (1964-1975)

Total U.S. Servicemembers (Worldwide) 6 8,744,000
Deployed to Southeast Asia
Battle Deaths 8 47,434
Other Deaths (In Theater) 10,786
Other Deaths in Service (Non-Theater) 8 32,000
Non-mortal Woundings 9 153,303
Living Veterans 7,391,000

Department of Veterans Affairs Fact Sheet, America's Wars, May 2013
http://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/fs_americas_wars.pdf


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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #82)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:42 PM

83. Number of "military flight instructors during the Vietnam War" serving in-country = 0,

 

unless they were otherwise in country, which this guy does not claim.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:49 PM

19. the guy is an ignorant fucking dumbass, he is the type to shout "USA , USA , USA "

at events anytime someone might say something he disagrees with.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 06:50 PM

20. Nancy Reagan's husband did big business with the people who killed the Marines.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x8152172

Then there's the October Surprise thing, where Bush and Casey did big business with the Ayatollah to hold the hostages until after the election of 1980.

Other than that, sure, Nancy Reagan was something of a humdinger in her Hollywood days.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #20)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:29 AM

44. I did not know she dang hums.

Frankly, I'm even sure my hum was ever dung itself.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #20)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:44 PM

72. Nancy was the Blow Job Queen of Hollywood

according to Peter Lawford and others.
A bonus is that her face would mostly be hidden.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:21 PM

23. How long has this guy owned a theater?

Fonda's been in about two dozen films since 1972. Is this the first time he's been in a position to ban one?

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Response to nyquil_man (Reply #23)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:16 AM

38. Did he show On Golden Pond?

I wonder.

Bake

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 07:42 PM

28. I noticed something in the article...

"Flight instructor."

You know what that is?

"More-patriotic-than-thou" REMF.

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Response to Archae (Reply #28)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:20 PM

87. The chicken hawk Ronald Dumbsfeld

was a flight instructor. Dumb ass me directed artillery fire.

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Response to The Wizard (Reply #87)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:34 PM

88. Dumb ass you. You missed him.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:09 PM

30. What unbridled ignorance. I met Jane Fonda in the early seventies

for an evening at a Lutheran pastor's home. She was not anti-American.
She was anti-Viet Nam conflict. She did not hate soldiers.

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Response to snappyturtle (Reply #30)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:16 PM

69. Jane Fonda: The Truth About My Trip to Hanoi

http://janefonda.com/the-truth-about-my-trip-to-hanoi/

It is unconscionable that extremist groups circulate letters which accuse me of horrific things, saying that I am a traitor, that POWs in Hanoi were tied up and in chains and marched passed me while I spat at them and called them ‘baby killers. These letters also say that when the POWs were brought into the room for a meeting I had with them, we shook hands and they passed me tiny slips of paper on which they had written their social security numbers. Supposedly, this was so that I could bring back proof to the U.S. military that they were alive. The story goes on to say that I handed these slips of paper over to the North Vietnamese guards and, as a result, at least one of the men was tortured to death. That these stories could be given credence shows how little people know of the realities in North Vietnam prisons at the time. The U.S. government and the POW families didn’t need me to tell them who the prisoners were. They had all their names. Moreover, according to even the most hardcore senior officers, torture stopped late in 1969, two and a half years before I got there. And, most importantly, I would never say such things to our servicemen, whom I respect, whether or not I agree with the mission they have been sent to perform, which is not of their choosing.

- snip -

The Photo of Me on the Gun Site.

There is one thing that happened while in North Vietnam that I will regret to my dying day— I allowed myself to be photographed on a Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun. I want to, once again, explain how that came about. I have talked about this numerous times on national television and in my memoirs, My Life So Far, but clearly, it needs to be repeated.

It happened on my last day in Hanoi. I was exhausted and an emotional wreck after the 2-week visit. It was not unusual for Americans who visited North Vietnam to be taken to see Vietnamese military installations and when they did, they were always required to wear a helmet like the kind I was told to wear during the numerous air raids I had experienced. When we arrived at the site of the anti-aircraft installation (somewhere on the outskirts of Hanoi), there was a group of about a dozen young soldiers in uniform who greeted me. There were also many photographers (and perhaps journalists) gathered about, many more than I had seen all in one place in Hanoi. This should have been a red flag.

The translator told me that the soldiers wanted to sing me a song. He translated as they sung. It was a song about the day ‘Uncle Ho’ declared their country’s independence in Hanoi’s Ba Dinh Square. I heard these words: “All men are created equal; they are given certain rights; among these are life, Liberty and Happiness.” These are the words Ho pronounced at the historic ceremony. I began to cry and clap. These young men should not be our enemy. They celebrate the same words Americans do.

The soldiers asked me to sing for them in return. As it turned out I was prepared for just such a moment: before leaving the United States, I memorized a song called Day Ma Di, written by anti-war South Vietnamese students. I knew I was slaughtering it, but everyone seemed delighted that I was making the attempt. I finished. Everyone was laughing and clapping, including me, overcome on this, my last day, with all that I had experienced during my 2 week visit. What happened next was something I have turned over and over in my mind countless times. Here is my best, honest recollection of what happened: someone (I don’t remember who) led me towards the gun, and I sat down, still laughing, still applauding. It all had nothing to do with where I was sitting. I hardly even thought about where I was sitting. The cameras flashed. I got up, and as I started to walk back to the car with the translator, the implication of what had just happened hit me. “Oh my God. It’s going to look like I was trying to shoot down U.S. planes.” I pleaded with him, “You have to be sure those photographs are not published. Please, you can’t let them be published.” I was assured it would be taken care of. I didn’t know what else to do. (I didn’t know yet that among the photographers there were some Japanese.)

It is possible that it was a set up, that the Vietnamese had it all planned. I will never know. But if they did I can’t blame them. The buck stops here. If I was used, I allowed it to happen. It was my mistake and I have paid and continue to pay a heavy price for it. Had I brought a politically more experienced traveling companion with me they would have kept me from taking that terrible seat. I would have known two minutes before sitting down what I didn’t realize until two minutes afterwards; a two-minute lapse of sanity that will haunt me forever. The gun was inactive, there were no planes overhead, I simply wasn’t thinking about what I was doing, only about what I was feeling, innocent of what the photo implies. But the photo exists, delivering its message regardless of what I was doing or feeling. I carry this heavy in my heart. I have apologized numerous times for any pain I may have caused servicemen and their families because of this photograph. It was never my intention to cause harm. It is certainly painful for me that I, who had spent so much time talking to soldiers, trying to help soldiers and veterans, helping the anti-war movement to not blame the soldiers, now would be seen as being against our soldiers!

So Why I Did I Go?

On May 8th, 1972, President Nixon had ordered underwater, explosive mines to be placed in Haiphong Harbor, something that had been rejected by previous administrations. Later that same month, reports began to come in from European scientists and diplomats that the dikes of the Red River Delta in North Vietnam were being targeted by U.S. planes. The Swedish ambassador to Vietnam reported to an American delegation in Hanoi that he had at first believed the bombing was accidental, but now, having seen the dikes with his own eyes, he was convinced it was deliberate.

I might have missed the significance of these reports had Tom Hayden, whom I was dating, not shown me what the recently released Pentagon Papers had to say on the subject: in 1966, Assistant Secretary of Defense John McNaughton, searching for some new means to bring Hanoi to its knees, had proposed destroying North Vietnam’s system of dams and dikes, which, he said, “If handled right- might…offer promise…such destruction does not kill or drown people. By shallow-flooding the rice, it leads after a time to widespread starvation (more than a million?) unless food is provided—which we could offer to do at the conference table.” President Johnson, to his credit, had not acted upon this option.

MORE

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #69)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:48 PM

75. +1

 

End of story

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #69)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:54 PM

79. heck, Marlene Dietrich worked and advocated for the DOWNFALL of her home country!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:32 PM

31. FWIW--

15miles from Ft. Knox. He's done it all along. Many vet retirees will support him.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Thu Aug 22, 2013, 08:36 PM

32. Former Marine? You are never a former Marine. nt

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Response to tsuki (Reply #32)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:20 AM

41. Silly thing to say.

You know what the article meant.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #41)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:52 PM

77. x2. It is a silly thing to say.

 

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Response to tsuki (Reply #32)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:39 AM

106. True...except for Ollie North who turned out to be a disgrace

to the uniform of the United States Marines. A truly traitorous scumbag that does not deserve the title of Marine.

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Response to tsuki (Reply #32)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:30 AM

113. Sure you are...

You are if you say you are, and you are if you are a child molester, spouse beater, or murderer because you've diminished the brand.

No semper fi for the dishonorable, or for those who find a life beyond uniformed service.

There's nothing wrong with looking back at one's career with nostalgia, respect or even amazement at what one accomplished, but IMO, when it's done, it's done. Living in the past means that there's no next adventure in your life. Pack up the plaques, the awards, and all that bullshit, and move forward.

Many of my good friends are retired military. We rarely talk about that shit--the here and now is much more interesting and relevant.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:44 AM

33. He lies!

“I was a military flight instructor during the Vietnam War, taught hundreds of pilots to fly, many of whom Ms. Fonda clapped and cheered as they were shot down and killed,” the retired Marine explained.

She was used and manuevered into bad photo ops but never cheered casualties.

I defy this asshole to prove his bullshit accusations outside a drunken VFW!

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Response to SCVDem (Reply #33)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:25 AM

43. Lots of misinfo out there. In college 25 years ago, a RW friend said she fought for NVA

Memories get muddled and conform to prejudices over time. Cracked descriptions of past events get passed along and take on lives of their own. I remember trying to convince this sincere conservative chap how ludiculous it was to imagine a 30 year old Hollywood actress operating an anti-aircraft gun.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:15 AM

37. Idiot.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:16 AM

39. A friend of mine saw the movie

apparently it was very good. This might be an Academy Award winner.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #39)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:23 PM

123. I saw it last night.

It painted Nancy Reagan in a very good light. Ronnie, not so much toward the end.

The movie was spectacular, but difficult to watch at times, just due to the cruelty that was inflicted upon African Americans, and to see how hard people fought for civil rights, and how far we still have to go as a society.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:18 AM

40. I feel the same way about Oliver North.

The dude sold on the black market government equipment and then embezzled the proceeds to give support to terrorists. I wouldn't call it treason, but he certainly worked against the interests and values of the nation.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #40)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:54 PM

78. It was treason. Giving aid and comfort to the enemy, Article 3, section 3, clause 1.

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #78)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:32 PM

93. Not unless you can name "the enemy"

You can't. There wasn't one. We were meddling.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #93)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 08:45 PM

94. Iran was "the enemy." I suspect that you already knew that. It was in the news.

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #94)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:46 PM

98. We were at war with Iran?

No, I couldn't read your thoughts. I was about to guess that you thought that the Contras were the enemy since they are the ones who got "aid" from North's shenanigans. What North did with Iran was sell them spare plane parts when there was a policy saying he shouldn't. That's criminal activity, but it's not treason. He's an embezzler and he broke the law against aiding the contras.

We had strained relations with Iran, but you'd have to really water down the definition to "treason" out of his actions. By no workable legal definition was Iran "an enemy" in the way you're implying. In fact, what he was doing was, while criminal, clearly a covert operation at the behest of higher ups in the government.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #98)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:04 PM

99. The Hawk missiles he participated in sending to Iran were lethal weapons and not "spare plane parts"

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/03/17/world/key-sections-of-conspiracy-indictment-in-iran-contra-affair.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

The Hawk missile is medium range surface-to-air missile capable of bringing down an airplane. That is what is it designed to do.

The approximate 4,000 TOW missiles he participated in sending to Iran were likewise lethal weapons and not "spare plane parts."
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/03/17/world/key-sections-of-conspiracy-indictment-in-iran-contra-affair.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

The TOW missile is a Tube-launched, Optically-tracked, Wire command-link guided missile capable of destroying a tank. That is what it is designed to do.

Whether he is an embezzler and broke the law against aiding the Contras is beside the point.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:20 AM

42. Did they do this for every Jane Fonda movie??

What about Monster in Law??
or Agnes of God??
or On Golden Pond??

Why now?? Why would you "ban" her movies now??

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:52 AM

45. I wonder how he feels about his fellow former marine Ollie North.....

who sold weapons to a regime that vowed to destroy us so he could give money to a gang of thugs who imported drugs into our country (among other things).........

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:10 AM

46. But yet voted for a War Criminal

But yet he probably enthusiastically voted for the War Criminal George W. Bush who is responsible for killing hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children including thousands of Americans.

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Response to lobodons (Reply #46)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:30 AM

50. uh huh...

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:13 AM

47. 'Dishonorment'? I don't think that's a word.

Help me out here.

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Response to TransitJohn (Reply #47)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:28 AM

49. I checked half a dozen dictionaries (including urban)--no such word

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:43 AM

51. She was the Manning of her day, telling us

things we did not know. I remember seeing a movie she made and going home and saying I could not vote for the president in the upcoming election because of Vietnam.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 10:59 AM

53. where is he getting she "clapped and cheered" when they were shot down?

I don't recall she did that.

Whatever, dude. Why do Americans love to be victims of someone else? Jane Fonda victimized him 40 years ago. Poor thing.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:00 AM

54. his choice (to lose out on a ton of cash, the moron)

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:06 AM

55. I used to point out to these flag-waving cretins that the constitution they claim to love and honour

actually allowed ms. fonda to speak her mind in opposition--fun to watch their teeny weeny widdle heads explode.

"he trained HUNDREDS of pilots"?? just in the marines? how many pilots did we have in that non-war anyway? in each branch?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:23 PM

57. Fuck him. BTW, has he ever had a Japanese or German car? Does he...

eat spaghetti?

We've had a lot of enemies over the years, but for a while Russia was our best friend.

There are people who suffered terribly during wartime, and sometimes they get a pass. Most of us, though, just get over it.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 12:54 PM

58. Holy crap, talk about holding a grudge!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:44 PM

59. Don't these people know who the REAL enemy is? Apparently not. nt

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:44 PM

60. That same dill hole probably worships George W. Bush

Last edited Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:56 PM - Edit history (1)

who gave $40 million in aid to the Taliban before 9-11 but AFTER they were harboring bin Laden and he was wanted for our embassy attacks.

An actress who allowed herself to be used in a propaganda film by the enemy in a grossly unpopular and unjust war=enemy of America. A president who gave financial aid to one of the most repressive regimes in the world and harboring a wanted terrorist? A hero, at least in this idiot's eyes.

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Response to Downtown Hound (Reply #60)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:44 PM

73. Or John Wayne.

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 01:55 PM

61. No such thing as a former marine.

My experience with people who describe themselves with that term is that they were either never a marine, just a life-long wannabe, or they washed out so quickly that they didn't learn that there is no such thing as a former marine. A check of this guy's background will certainly show some inconsistencies in his personal biography.

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Response to elephant hunter (Reply #61)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 05:44 PM

85. If you want to real credibility with your claim, sign up.

 

Then, instead of merely saying "My experience with ...," you will be able to say "In my personal experience ..."

Sign up. It will make your mama proud.

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #85)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 09:23 PM

96. I haven't posted here in years.

It used to be a nice place where you didn't have to put up with conservative bs and could interact with like minded people. While I haven't posted in years I have always lurked. To the issue at hand, you don't know me and are clearly clueless about most things in your life. Perhaps living in your parents basement does that to you. I could tell you how wrong you are about me but this is the internet and I could embellish anything I wanted, although I really have no need to embellish. At the end of the day though I really don't give a flying flip about small minded cretins like yourself whose real life is so worthless that the only thing they can do is troll websites like this being insulting because for some reason it makes their pathetic existance more palatable. I know this post will be hidden by a jury decision and that I am about to be tombstoned but I have done nothing but lurk for a long time now and I can go back to doing that. My only hope is that you see this before it gets hidden you royal dickwad!

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Response to elephant hunter (Reply #96)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:13 PM

100. Does this mean that you're not going to sign up?

 

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Response to AnotherMcIntosh (Reply #100)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:40 AM

114. Still into sniper rifles, I see. (nt)

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:53 PM

66. Yeah, and Oprah endorsed Obama too!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 02:57 PM

67. I wonder if he showed these Oliver Stone movies

Tricky Dick and the Texas Air National Guard hero.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:28 PM

70. Urban Legends says that the betrayal thing is mostly false.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:43 PM

71. John Wayne, the hero of some, was a draft-dodging actor who liked to dress up like Marines.

 

Here is one of him out of a Marine uniform.



John Wayne was a chicken-hawk who got rich while real Marines died.

How many John Wayne movies have been kept out of this particular Kentucky theater?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 03:45 PM

74. That will show her!

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 04:56 PM

81. Seeing as how this movie is a huge hit, it's his loss IMO. I worked for 1 of the big networks and

had the privilege of meeting Jane Fonda. Just as she drove onto our studio lot, 2 cars collided right behind her. When she came out of the studio she came to me and was very concerned about the people in the 2 cars. She asked "are they alright" & I told her they were fine with just some bruises. She said "thank God; I was so worried about them". She & her assistant got in Jane's little Ford Fiesta and Jane drove the asst to her car. No pretentiousness, no snobbery; just real concern. I was totally against the war also. Most importantly, Jane has publicly said she was sorry for her actions during the war. What more should she do? Jane will always be a fine person in my book; a person who made mistakes & has acknowledged those mistakes. How many other people can say the same?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:47 PM

89. "..Ms. Fonda clapped and cheered as they were shot down and killed."

News to me. Any link to back that up, preferably one not from Nox Fews or Lush Rimbaugh ?

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Response to dusty trails (Reply #89)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:07 PM

128. They make it up as they go along. Pay 'em no mind. n/t

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:53 PM

90. She's been the favorite whipping-girl for the RW ever since that youthful indescretion

I read an interview with her recently (last year?) in which she said she was prepared to say "I'm sorry" for that episode in her life with every breath if that's what it took to atone.

However, actually acknowledging that would be too difficult for those who want to continue to hate her because it is easy to do so.

She actually did her cameo of Nancy Reagan very well.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 06:57 PM

92. Rampant stupid is the enemy of America and it's winning.

nt


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Response to kpete (Original post)

Fri Aug 23, 2013, 11:43 PM

102. Guy reminds me of the RW morons who say "We never lost a battle in the war", stab in the back meme

Yea, morons, technically we may have never lost a single battle but our cause was unjust. We only dropped shit tons of napalm, Agent Orange and heavy bombs on them, and they never surrendered either or gave up. We should have never been there in the first place.

Morans all of them.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:16 AM

103. Have to wonder

If Jane Fonda is the real reason. It would interesting to find out if he banned all of her other movies.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:20 AM

104. Jane Fonda has been in hundreds of movies, but thisis the only one he bans hmmmmmm,

Ok whatever

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:40 AM

107. This guy stayed stateside as a flight instructor. IOW: Chickenhawk.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:32 AM

108. .

.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 03:51 AM

109. Well I am a former Marine and I think Jane Fonda had more guts........

than 90% of the Republicans that did everything they could to cheer for the war (from the sidelines) and were too scared..... no correct that to cowardly, to join in the fun we were all having in Vietnam. Mitt, Rush, Dick Ted and many more am I right?

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Response to 4bucksagallon (Reply #109)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:15 AM

116. Agreed, including John Wayne whose movies were probably shown at that theater.

 

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 07:29 AM

110. Plus, there are black people in that movie. In STARRING roles.

And he called himself a "former Marine?" That's just wrong. Apparently, his memory isn't all that good. "Once a Marine, . . ."

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 08:42 AM

115. If he was refusing to show the movie on artistic grounds, I wouldn't have a problem with him.

It's pretty weak.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 09:58 AM

117. Jane Fonda was a little over the top, even for back then. I protested the war,

and still thought she was somewhat overboard. I don't remember ANY instances, however, where she cheered American pilots being shot down or any American deaths. The protests were about government policies. My brother and many friends served and most were pretty cynical about the whole deal. At best, they started out like Ron Kovic, who is probably the best known vet of that era. Something else no one I know ever saw: returning vets being spat on. Jane Fonda has appeared in other recent movies. Boutwell isn't being honest about a picture that mostly honors some who really deserve to be honored. His problem obviously lies elsewhere.

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Response to maddiemom (Reply #117)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:18 PM

122. It did happen to a friend of mine

He is a retired USCG Reserve Lieutenant Commander.

He was a Naval Aviator in Vietnam.

It happened to him in an airport.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:09 PM

119. I'm a veteran too

I didn't serve in Vietnam, and I didn't see combat, and I think Jane Fonda was very misguided in what she did.

However, she has apologised repeatedly for it.

Nonetheless...this reminds me of the dust-up over The Last Temptation Of Christ. I remember a local cinema receiving bomb threats over that, which is just out-and-out STUPID.

If you don't like Jane Fonda, if you don't like her playing Nancy Reagan, there is a very simple solution.

DON'T.
SEE.
THE.
MOVIE.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:24 PM

124. I'll bet anything that if there was a screening of

"Barbarella" in Vietnam while he was there...he went to see it.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:49 PM

125. I thought all the Cold War assholes were already over Barbarella!

NO? Some hate resides forever in the hearts of fools?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 01:52 PM

126. Whatever happened to forgiveness?

Doesn't that still exist?

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 02:09 PM

129. BTW, she's GREAT in the role. Unbelievably Nancy Reagan-esque. Go figure.

Maybe Nancy can return the favor.

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Response to kpete (Original post)

Sat Aug 24, 2013, 06:14 PM

133. I thought it was just

perfect to have Jane Fonda play Nancy Reagan. And Snape as Ronnie Reagan. That was just perfect.

Jane still looks pretty hot, too.

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