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Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:18 AM

I'd rather restore constitutional law and give up my healthcare. Just thought I'd throw that out

there, since there seems to be a trend right now to parade the healthcare here. In other words, no amount of rah-rah about the healthcare, no matter how good it truly is for folks, will negate the loss of constitutional law, nor will it deflect my attention. Keep your eye on the ball (for those able to see it).

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Reply I'd rather restore constitutional law and give up my healthcare. Just thought I'd throw that out (Original post)
silvershadow Aug 2013 OP
Oakenshield Aug 2013 #1
silvershadow Aug 2013 #2
pnwmom Aug 2013 #3
silvershadow Aug 2013 #4
Gravitycollapse Aug 2013 #5
silvershadow Aug 2013 #8
Gravitycollapse Aug 2013 #15
Bernardo de La Paz Aug 2013 #25
dothemath Aug 2013 #34
djean111 Aug 2013 #28
Fumesucker Aug 2013 #44
djean111 Aug 2013 #47
JI7 Aug 2013 #6
silvershadow Aug 2013 #7
MADem Aug 2013 #13
TexasTowelie Aug 2013 #9
silvershadow Aug 2013 #10
geckosfeet Aug 2013 #11
silvershadow Aug 2013 #12
Gravitycollapse Aug 2013 #17
geckosfeet Aug 2013 #19
PowerToThePeople Aug 2013 #48
Demit Aug 2013 #14
reformist2 Aug 2013 #24
Demit Aug 2013 #40
Californeeway Aug 2013 #16
Gravitycollapse Aug 2013 #18
Californeeway Aug 2013 #20
Fumesucker Aug 2013 #31
Douglas Carpenter Aug 2013 #21
reformist2 Aug 2013 #22
Sunlei Aug 2013 #23
Cha Aug 2013 #26
djean111 Aug 2013 #27
Squinch Aug 2013 #29
dothemath Aug 2013 #30
Fumesucker Aug 2013 #32
Demit Aug 2013 #42
Fumesucker Aug 2013 #43
watoos Aug 2013 #33
Fumesucker Aug 2013 #35
Progressive dog Aug 2013 #36
struggle4progress Aug 2013 #37
Skidmore Aug 2013 #38
rurallib Aug 2013 #39
malaise Aug 2013 #41
99Forever Aug 2013 #45
tridim Aug 2013 #46
MisterP Aug 2013 #49
silvershadow Aug 2013 #50
MisterP Aug 2013 #51
silvershadow Aug 2013 #52
DevonRex Aug 2013 #53
bowens43 Aug 2013 #54

Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:32 AM

1. This sounds too much like fundie conservative talk.

That likely wasn't you intent, but you OP really does read like something they'd preach. Better to say "expanding healthcare is all well and good, but let's not forget the President and his administration should also be held responsible for their attacks on our civil liberties."

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Response to Oakenshield (Reply #1)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:40 AM

2. Yeah, shame that it's gone this far, that my extreme left views could be viewed that way by some.

Of course, political views haven't changed in 40 years, so instead of being extreme left, I used to be considered middle of the road, ordinary average Democrat. But, I hear you.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:44 AM

3. Giving up your healthcare won't restore constitutional law.

And there's no way I'll support a rollback of the ACA under any circumstances. The only change I'll support will be ones that will move it closer to single-payer.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #3)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:47 AM

4. Oh, I agree with you that rolling it back won't restore constitutional law, and I agree with moving

toward single payer. Still, I'd give it up at this point, just to get back to reality.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:48 AM

5. False dichotomy. False dichotomy. False dichotomy. False dichotomy. False dichotomy.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:56 AM

8. No. No. No. No. No. No dichotomy whatsoever. Just my opinion. I would prefer the rule of law so

much that I would gladly give up my healthcare at this point if that's what it took to restore law. (Not that it would, but still, I would if it would).

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Response to silvershadow (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:46 AM

15. That's called a dichotomy. And, in the real world, it is also false.

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Response to silvershadow (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:05 AM

25. It's a false dichotomy since it's NOT either/or. It's a false choice & the options are independent.

The real choice is four way and the choices are independent:

A & B
A & not B
not A & B
not A & not B

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Response to silvershadow (Reply #8)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:58 AM

34. If I were to hazard a guess .........

 

I would guess you have SS, Medicare and receive care - free - from the VA. Maybe retired from a job that affords a pension AND free healthcare for life for you and your family. Time for some enlightment about your situation, sir, along the lines of exactly what you would be giving up. Or did you win the lottery? (by the way, that would be a gift that cost you a couple of bucks but doesn't make you the "sharpest knife in the drawer" by a long shot).

How about it? 50 million people without healthcare coverage except for emergency room service would like to know. Another by the way, care from an emergency room is provided because a LAW was passed. Might as well get rid of that, too.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #5)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:25 AM

28. Of course it is a false dichotomy. That is the point of the OP.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #28)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:34 AM

44. You can't be at all subtle on DU, there's always someone who misses it

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #44)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 10:26 AM

47. Evidently. There was such a loud Whoosh!!!!!!! overhead I thought there was a rogue shuttle landing

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:49 AM

6. not even sure what that means, it's something i hear the wingnuts say all the time

"restore the constitution" while complaining about socialism.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:54 AM

7. Except that I'm not complaining about socialism. Bernie Sanders is one of my heroes. I simply and

stating that, at this point, after 2 GWB mal-administrations, and since, this country has been adrift....And I couldn't be more disappointed with President Obama if I tried. That press conference yesterday was pathetic.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #6)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:33 AM

13. "Restore the constitution" means allow everyone to have rocket launchers and tanks. nt

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 04:59 AM

9. I can't decide

whether you had too much to drink tonight, too much to smoke tonight or if you've forgotten that you are on DU.

There are flaws in the ACA and single-payer is preferable, but I would prefer to fix those problems than abandon ACA before it is fully implemented and given the opportunity to work.

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Response to TexasTowelie (Reply #9)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:01 AM

10. It's not about ACA. I love ACA for what it is, and hope we can do even more. I'm just saying

that the NSA spying thing is so important to me, that at this point I'd gladly give up my healthcare in order to return to constitutional law.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:05 AM

11. I would simply demand both. One does not need to exclude the other.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #11)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:29 AM

12. True. What though does it take to figure out how to restore our democracy? I mean, really? nt

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Response to silvershadow (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:47 AM

17. An electorate that wasn't filled so largely with buffoons.

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Response to silvershadow (Reply #12)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:51 AM

19. Democracy and the constitution are not necessarily the same thing - are they?

We can have our constitution within a capitalist republic system, which is essentially what we have. The veil of democracy, I have never really bought into it. It is clear that corporations and the rich run the show and have since the early days of the republic. So restoring is not really the question since imo, current conditions have been status quo since day 1.

Now as far as the domestic spying issues, I agree, these are egregious infringements on the constitution. How to stop it? Hmm. How do we even know what the extent of the spying is and how do we determine if it has been stopped? Do you think the government agencies are even going to come clean with congress? Much less the American public?

They are spooks. Shadows. Working in the dark and never to be revealed. I am not sure how we get a handle on them. I truly believe that congress cannot even reign them in at this point. De-funding them through congress will have no affect - there will always be super rich corpo interests to provide the money.

In any event, the constitution in rapidly becoming a relic with no modern relevance - not that I agree that it should be so, or think it is a good thing in any way. The constitution is being ignored, trampled and "interpreted" in ways that are so far fetched as to be laughable. There is no commitment to it anymore. Contemporary politicians care more about finding ways to circumvent the constitution with legal loophole jumping than adhering to it's core principles.

How do restore it? Better to ask how do regain control from the corporate megaliths that run our country for their own benefit.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #19)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 10:31 AM

48. REC

nicely stated.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:38 AM

14. Why do you frame it in terms of a choice?

Why do you consider that attention to one important issue deflects attention from another important issue?

If you got your wish, how would that work? The president would declare the restoration of constitutional law (what are the specifics of what you mean by that, anyway?) but in exchange, he would have to abolish "the healthcare" because...why, exactly?

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Response to Demit (Reply #14)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:02 AM

24. Think of it as an evaluation of the Obama presidency - on the whole, it's not that great.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #24)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:14 AM

40. One can evaluate the Obama presidency in more coherent terms.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:47 AM

16. I feel completely the opposite

and the callousness to assume that my kid or a million other innocent kids goes without healthcare so you can wax righteous about potential abuses is pretty damn mean-spirited

The Snowden clan has had a lot of mean-spirited and trollish things to say lately,

and they wonder why people naturally resist it...

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Response to Californeeway (Reply #16)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 05:48 AM

18. People naturally resist a lot of things that they should not.

Exercise is a great example.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #18)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:00 AM

20. there are definitely circumstances in which you would be correct

but that does not prove you are correct on this particular point.

No one is saying they don't want the NSA and over surveillance programs reformed drastically. I thought that was the point of Obama's speech in May. I got it then, it's not something people pulled out of their ass just now, we are talking about ending the war on terror and overhauling the whole security apparatus. I'm done with the fascination over Snowden is soooo awesome, Obama's such a dick. It's old hat and smells like rat-fucking. People are talking about how they want the reforms done now. I think a lot of us are starting to get tired of being to told to spend the next year lionizing the guy who ratted us out to the Chinese and Russians and what do we get out of kneecapping the leader of the party going into an election cycle? Like a Republican Senate is going to make it easier to end the War on Terror?

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Response to Californeeway (Reply #20)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:51 AM

31. Welcome to DU

You might want to look around here before making claims about what people are saying, there are plenty of posters who think the NSA is just fine exactly the way it is and will defend it to their last breath thank you very much.



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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:00 AM

21. AS a lifelong democratic-socialist I would say that I would rather live in a non-authoritarian

but conservative society that did not have an all encompassing surveillance state - than live in an authoritarian socialist society that did have an all encompassing surveillance state.

However, I don't think it is necessary to have give up both social democracy and freedom - But if I was forced to choose - I would choose to keep freedom - After all what was Communism but authoritarian socialism? And what was Fascism but an authoritarian version of social-democracy - with lots of the social and none of the democracy. And what did both Fascism and Communism both have in common but an all encompassing surveillance state?

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:01 AM

22. I get what you're saying, and agree with your priorities.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:01 AM

23. you already have the 'right' to not have healthcare and die where you fall

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:12 AM

26. Too bad you look at people getting Obamacare on Oct 1 as rah rah..

paranoid much. There are many things happening at once and we're quite capable of getting everything we want.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:24 AM

27. My impression of the OP is that we are constantly given a weird Sophie's Choice if we complain about

anything - as if it is only possible to do one good or right thing at a time or in a term or whatever. So much for all those people on the payroll at 1600.
Hate the drones and torture? But what about the ACA!
Hate the trampling of the Constitution? DOMA!!!!!!!!!!
The OP is not suggesting ACA be rolled back. It is suggesting that the ACA does not excuse anything else.

I fully expect the TPP to be so disgusting that it will take the cheerleaders a few days to come up with rationalizations and spin (unless that is being worked on now) and to be told ACA!!!!!! DOMA!!!!! as if things like that excuse other things that are just wrong.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:28 AM

29. This really does sound like a ridiculous choice Paul Ryan would offer.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:45 AM

30. another moronic post .......

 

The ACA was passed and became LAW exactly as prescribed in the consitution, repeat exactly. How in blazes do you conflate that with "restore constitutional law"?

Another neocon wingnut paraphrasing a right wing talking point and screwing it up. Typical. Nothing to see here, folks, move along.

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Response to dothemath (Reply #30)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:54 AM

32. Welcome to DU

It's good that you have come here to share your expertise with those of us who are incapable of recognizing neocon wingnut talking points.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #32)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:18 AM

42. LOL! the poster has been a member longer than you, Mr Welcome Wagon.

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Response to Demit (Reply #42)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:23 AM

43. And wise indeed have they become



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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 06:56 AM

33. Except the people who would be free to reject health care

are being subsidized by the rest of the majority of us who are responsible and carry health care. I'm tired of paying extra for dead beats who hide behind the Constitution so they can run to the emergency room and get me to cover their bills.
Do you also feel the same about being forced to get a drivers license. Isn't that also an infringement on our freedoms?

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 07:05 AM

35. Oh I wouldn't worry too much about the health *care* part

There's a good chance you won't be able to afford the actual care anyway after you make the premiums and have to cough up the copays and the deductible.

The strict choice would be between health *insurance* and constitutional law.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 08:23 AM

36. Yeah, you can give up medicaid, social security, and medicare tooi

because I'd rather you die than I might have been spied on.The possibility of my e-mails being read trumps your life.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 08:25 AM

37. When you're healthy, you can fight better for what you believe in

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 08:37 AM

38. Ah, yes, the smell of

steaming binary magical thinking poured over a huge lump of straw in the morning.

We can change laws and do both. Elect a Do Something Congress in 2014. All arguments like the one you just presented will continue to be met with scorn by me because they tend to present nihilistic open-ended doom and gloom without a path toward solutions. Step forward with constructive solutions and you will get my attention. Ignoring the role of Congress in crafting bad laws and shunning its oversight responsibilities is a good place to begin examining your outrage.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 08:59 AM

39. keep the healthcare, dump the guns except for militias

like it says in the constitution

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:16 AM

41. It's not either or

FFS!

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:49 AM

45. WTF?

Either, or?

Neither is dependent on the other.

Ridiculous false dichotomy, is ridiculous.

Nope, I DEMAND both.

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 09:53 AM

46. This Democrat will continue praising Obamacare and the 30 million poor who can finally afford HC...

for the first time in their lives.

Do you think maybe your priorities are a completely out of whack?

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 02:14 PM

49. healthcare? when'd we get healthcare?

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Response to MisterP (Reply #49)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 02:16 PM

50. Well, it's the law of the land, so we will get it, at some point (in theory, anyway). There are

plenty of other things that are the law of the land that seem to be ignored or missing.

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Response to silvershadow (Reply #50)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 02:20 PM

51. the ACA does not guarantee healthcare

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Response to MisterP (Reply #51)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 02:22 PM

52. Indeed it does not.

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Response to MisterP (Reply #49)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 02:43 PM

53. You've always had it. Go to Health Resources Services Administration. Link.

http://www.hrsa.gov/gethealthcare/index.html
Get Health Care
The Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA) is an agency within the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Tens of millions of Americans get affordable health care and other help through HRSA programs.

Get Affordable Healthcare

Find a Health Center
Health centers provide primary medical and dental care to people of all ages, whether or not they have health insurance. Services are provided on a sliding fee scale, based on your ability to pay.

Find Free or Reduced Cost Care at Hill-Burton Obligated Facilities
About 200 hospitals, nursing homes and other facilities across the U.S. are required to provide a specific amount of free or reduced-cost health care to people unable to pay

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Response to silvershadow (Original post)

Sun Aug 11, 2013, 03:15 PM

54. health care is a fundamental inalienable right. Period.

and yes without health care the Constitution isn't worth a flying fuck to most people.

BTW , the founders put a lot of fucked up shit in that document and it should be trashed. We should start over.

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