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Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:52 AM

 

Hiroshima - quit lying to yourselves

There is no justification for incinerating hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, many of them women, children and babies.

None, and it takes a special kind of arrogant, shameless inhumanity to try to do so.

And save the "it was the only way to end the war" propaganda. Japanese were already talking surrounder, this is now well established. And even that aside, why bomb a largely civilian island? Why not just drop a nuke on one of Japan's many uninhabited islands as a warning?

The bottom line is this was nothing but America's way of declaring our place as the new ruling empire by way of mass murder and terror of the most evil kind.

You can try to justify it until you're blue in the face, you're only kidding yourself.

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Reply Hiroshima - quit lying to yourselves (Original post)
Phillyindy Aug 2013 OP
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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:55 AM

1. My dad was a Marine slated to be in the first wave of the invasion force.

 

If not for the dropping of the bombs, I might not be here writing this, so take your revisionist history bulls**t elsewhere.
I'll never believe otherwise.

BTW, Hirohito's own words:

The enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization." http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/08/the-emperors-speech-67-years-ago-hirohito-transformed-japan-forever/261166/

They were not ready to surrender, every man, woman and child in Japan were being trained to resist and kill Americans, children were being trained to use bamboo staffs to skewer troops.

The vote to surrender after the 2 bombs were dropped was 3-3, it took Hirohito to break the tie.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:00 PM

5. I forgot...

 

...your life is worth more then a baby born elsewhere.

'Murica

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:05 PM

14. Yes, my dad's life was worth more than a nation that was trying it's best

 

to destroy and enslave us.
The Japanese were especially cruel and barbaric during WWII.
Take it as you want.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #14)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:11 PM

23. There are no warlike people...

 

...only warlike leaders.

To place guilt on the civilians killed by those bombs would be like placing guilt on your kids after they were killed by a suicide bomber because of Bush's war crimes.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #23)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:22 PM

45. Every one of those so called civilians were being trained to resist the invasion

 

and kill as many American troops as possible, women and children were being trained on how to use bamboo spears to skewer American troops.
The Japanese were ready to fight to the death of every man, woman and child.

You can try to condemn the atomic bombing all you want, it won't change my mind on the decision to use the bombs to hasten the end of the war and possibly save my dad's life.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #45)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:10 AM

353. Whatever it takes for you to justify the nuclear incineration of a million people, I guess

And of course the effects of the radiation on generations unborn at the time.

Interesting that the core of your argument is that the people of Japan were prepared to defend Japan from an invading force - with wooden melee weapons!

Did you have a granddad in the seventh cavalry circa 1890, by chance?

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #353)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:08 AM

368. By your standard the Nazis in 1945 were defending their homeland.

Sometimes a country needs to be invaded and their gov't brought down. The debate is who and when. I submit that Germany and Japan in 1945 needed forcible regime change, even at the expense of massive civilian casualties to each country.

BTW - Little Big Horn was in 1876.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #368)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 06:01 PM

438. We're not talking about invading a country or changing a regime.

We're talking about the logic you're using to justify annihilating hundreds of thousands of civilians. We had to destroy them, you say, because if we didn't, you say, they would have stabbed people with pointy sticks.

And I was referring to Wounded Knee.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #438)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:39 PM

453. If we had not removed their gov't, we would have fought them again in 20 years.

The only way to remove the gov't was by occupying their country. So we are talking about changing their gov't, just as we changed Germany's gov't.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #45)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:27 AM

356. They were being trained to kill invading soldiers... That just doesn't sound as blood-thirsty and

barbaric as you want it to. I'm pretty sure if the shoe were on the other foot and you were protecting your home and your community from invasion you might react similarly.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #23)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:44 PM

81. Those civilians fully supported the war effort and willingly sent their sons off to kill innocents

they then willing went to work to feed and arm the military machine. They were not innocent bystanders.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #81)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:53 PM

150. Women and children are innocent bystanders, civilized people do not kill women and children

out of fear.

By your logic leveling Detroit along with all the women and children and grannies would have been a justified strike by Germany had they developed atomic weapons first because we built war hardware there, not buying your cowardly sociopathic bullshit.

Really such hatred of civilian populations is disgusting and your statement makes me want to puke and have you tested to see if you are a psychopath as well as a sociopath.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #150)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:59 PM

163. Isn't it time to let someone else wear the hair shirt? nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #163)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:02 PM

166. Isn't it time to admit that the lives of children are worth less to you than a side order of fries?

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #166)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:09 PM

174. I don't believe that. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #174)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:12 PM

181. You certainly appear to. /nt

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #150)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:04 AM

352. Calling people psychopath and sociopaths is against the TOS

You should really take your garbage and go else where.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #81)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:53 PM

239. really? Unlike our people, who didn't support our troops?

 

We only do good, right?

How ridiculous can you get?

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #239)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:11 PM

268. The Japanese were within their rights to attack the American mainland

to damage our war making capabilities. They simply didn't have the means. By 1945 all sides were attacking each others cities.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #268)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:39 PM

289. Were they within their rights to bomb Pearl Harbor?

Explain that one.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #289)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:44 PM

293. No - that was unprovoked aggression

a lot different from actions four years into a war.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #293)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:31 AM

376. Actually, it wasn't unprovoked aggression.

It was a response to the US embargo of oil to Japan. Japan need oil both for domestic use and to fuel it's war machine. The US placed an embargo on the oil which (among other things) triggered the Pearl Harbor attack.

If another nation cut off all US access to a necessary resource, it's highly likely that the US would stage an attack to regain access to that resource.

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Response to ET Awful (Reply #376)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:37 AM

381. And the sanctions were in response to Japanese aggression in China

we can play chicken and egg all day long. If Japan did not initially harbor dreams of empire and invade China with the resultant deaths of millions, there would have never been war in the Pacific and ultimately no need for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #381)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:40 AM

382. Sure, but my analogy still stands. . .

If a nation blocked access to a resourced needed by the US in response to our aggression in the Middle East, do you think the US would balk at attacking that nation?

There was no need for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, to say it was "needed" is nonsense.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #81)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:56 PM

455. So did and do we

We are supposed to support our troops even though we know they are killing innocent people who will risk their lives to save their people. Children of the 40's collected scrap for our war machines, and adults bought war bonds. I think there could and should have been another way to end the war. We are barbaric.

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Response to Politicalboi (Reply #455)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 07:49 AM

459. Any other way would have led to more civilian deaths

whether by conventional weapons or by disease and starvation.

And lets not forget all those innocent civilians dying under brutal occupation in all the countries Japan conquered. Japan killed nearly 10 million civilians in China and SE Asia from 1937 to 1945 - slave labor, deliberate famines, war atrocities, etc. No - it was the Japanese that were barbaric.

It is time to put up. Tell me a way to end the war that takes in to consideration all those other innocent lives, not just the lives of those living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Tell me how the war was going to be ended without killing even more Japanese civilians. No mushy moralizing, no "I think" - give me a detailed scenario rooted in actual history. Perhaps you can succeed where everyone else has failed.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #23)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:40 PM

221. Do you say the same about Obamas war crimes?

 

With all of the drone strikes he is every bit as guilty.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #23)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:17 AM

371. You have no idea the militarism and regimentation conditioned upon the Japanese citizens under

 

the Meiji Restoration. Dying for the Emperor was an honor.

You ignorance of the time period is mind blowing.

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Response to Nanjing to Seoul (Reply #371)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:06 PM

442. So, women and children were fair game. Got it.

 

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #442)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:34 PM

450. Nanjing. Unit 731. The Japanese people supported these.

 

There were women and children there too. I guess Japanese lives mean more to Americans because the A-Bomb took them out. Chinese lives are meaningless because the Japanese killed them.

Revisionism is amazing. So is ignorance. You have no idea about this era. Don't bother responding, I will "ignore" you instantly.

My Chinese wife saw your reply to me and asked me why Americans think Chinese lives are so meaningless? Japan EARNED the A-bomb! No sympathy for any one of them during that time. They started the war. . .we finished it! Case closed!

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Response to Nanjing to Seoul (Reply #450)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 10:26 AM

461. so I guess you won't bother to read my response after you grossly misinterpret my post

 

WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY "Chinese lives are so meaningless"???

FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

This kind of fucking self-centered attitude is why we keep having fucking wars.

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #461)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 12:03 PM

463. Your attitude that the A-bomb was wrong because it killed women and children. . .that's where

 

I got it. I am tired of hearing how wrong the Americans were for Hiroshima. . .Japan STARTED the damn war in 1932 by invading Manchuria and the 1934 bombing of Shanghai, then used the Marco Polo Bridge incident to continue an aggressive war and genocide of Chinese civilians that had no ability to defend themselves.

Then they lead massacres in Nanjing, Singapore, Parit Sulong, Sook Jing, Manila and Bangka Island (to name a few). On top of that, they used Chinese as human lab rats in Unit 731 in Harbin.

In 1941, they attacked the US. . .the reason: They were angry we stopped supplying them with the materials that wanted and felt they deserved for their aggressive war in China, a war the US was working to end! So they attacked us to scare us into giving them what they want. They started the war. . .we ended it.

Again, Japanese lives mean more than American lives or Chinese lives. I am so sick of revisionism.

And did I hit a nerve? World War 2 was horrific, and the two major aggressors (Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan) are the reasons.

Why should I have sympathy for them for that time? I will not condemn Japan today for the actions of yesterday, but for the time period between 1932 - 1945, I have absolutely no sympathy for them. The started the war. . .they got what their earned!

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Response to Nanjing to Seoul (Reply #463)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 09:31 PM

470. I understand your POV

 

but "Japanese lives mean more than American lives or Chinese lives. I am so sick of revisionism." is just not where I am coming from.

Of course war is horrific. And we will keep on having wars when we dehumanize our opponents.

OBVIOUSLY the Japanese did terrible things to China. I am not arguing that.

My whole point is that we should be better than them.

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #470)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 10:18 PM

471. sometimes when taking the high road your legs get cut off at the feet

 

Japan needed to be taken down...going to their level two times proved they should not commit genocide.

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Response to Nanjing to Seoul (Reply #471)

Fri Aug 9, 2013, 12:05 PM

477. I think Jesus said that in one of the parables: "Stop genocide by killing twice as many of them"

 

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #461)


Response to tumtum (Reply #14)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:53 PM

98. I get your point but if we hadnt goaded the japanese into war we wouldnt have needed to bomb them

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Response to boomer55 (Reply #98)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:23 PM

130. "Goaded them into war"?

What, by not selling them the steel and oil they needed to carry out their campaign of rape, slaughter and subjugation in China? Fucksake.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #130)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:54 PM

241. It is much more complicated than that. There are lots of reasons to think FDR wanted the Japanese

 

to attack.

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #241)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 05:38 PM

329. Unless the Allied powers turned back the Axis

it was a question of When Japan attacked not If. Philippines were clearly in their sights long before the embargo. Along with some of the Aleutian Islands. FDR wanted an excuse to get us into the war while we would still have allies. Fighting all three Axis powers by ourselves would have been very lonely.

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Response to NoMoreWarNow (Reply #241)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 12:32 AM

457. Pull out your Crystal Ball then and tell us what FDR was thinking

 

BTW. . .again, I will ask you. . .American A-bomb Hiroshima = bad? Japanese raping 20,000 women in and killing 300,000 civilians in an unarmed, defenseless city = who cares?

You are sick in your "blame America" for everything" revisionist history.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #130)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:40 PM

290. I like your tagline and I think it should be used in this case.

Ever since World War II Americans have generally believed, because that is what they were told to believe, that America was just peacefully minding its own business when Japan, for no reason at all other than their own aggression, came out of nowhere to attack America. In other words, that America was an "innocent victim". This is not the case, though. The Japanese were being provoked and baited by the FDR administration because even though FDR knew it was essential to enter the war against the fascists, the political opposition from American conservatives was too strong. There were supporters of the fascist actively working in the US to keep America out of the war.

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/fdr_provoked_the_japanese_attack.htm

we made up a list of things to do to piss off the Japanese and goad them into attacking us. That list was followed and they attacked.



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Response to boomer55 (Reply #290)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 07:41 PM

334. It's not really much more complicated than that.

The Japanese had been at war in China since 1931 and by 1941 had killed many millions of Chinese. Japanese aggression would have led to war in any case even absent economic sanctions.

I don't know how wilfully ignorant you have to be to somehow believe that Japan was the injured party.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #130)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:42 PM

318. imagine if we had guys like these running the show during WWII...

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Response to boomer55 (Reply #98)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:31 PM

212. Hiroshima was a mistake, but

Did anyone force them to ally with the Third Reich? It is one thing for them to fight the west separately, even though none of that would excuse their murder of 22 million Chinese.

22 Million,

That's more than 3 Holocausts !

But in addition to killing 22 Million Chinese, they allied with Hitler.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #212)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:55 PM

299. The Third Reich had been defeated months before the bombs dropped.

And there's no hard evidence that Japan's alliance with them made any significant difference in the length of the European conflict.

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Response to Ken Burch (Reply #299)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 06:47 AM

362. they still killed 22 Million Chinese

and they are still furious.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #362)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 05:38 PM

437. The Japanese war machine did do that.

But that didn't make the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, cities of no military importance, collectively responsible. It didn't mean it was there for acceptable to irradiate anybody who simply happened to be a Japanese citizen.

The real purpose of dropping those bombs was to keep the USSR from declaring war on Japan(it had designs on some northern islands claimed by Japan)and to fire an early warning shot in the Cold War.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #14)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:44 PM

142. I understand, better to kill thousands of women and children civilians than risk your soldier dad.

Killing other soldiers in a war while protecting oneself is one thing, that's what soldiers on both sides sign up for.

Only a coward and a thug would wish to be protected behind mountains of civilian women and children corpses (a true soldier would not wish such a thing)

This little girl was not a soldier and I doubt your father would shoot her out of fear, yet you apparently would, disgusting really...

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #142)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:54 PM

154. Hey, you're free to think whatever you want of me.

 

I don't give a hoot.
I stick by my statement, I'm probably here today, and my dad came home because of Truman's decision to use the bombs.
You don't like it, don't read it.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #154)


Response to Dragonfli (Reply #161)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:02 PM

167. As I said, you're free to think whatever you want of me,

 

it's not important to me.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #154)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:53 PM

238. My dad was also a Marine preparing for the invasion of Japan. Casualty estimates were high.

Casualty estimates were based on the experience of the preceding campaigns, drawing different lessons:

In a letter sent to Gen. Curtis LeMay from Gen. Lauris Norstad, when LeMay assumed command of the B-29 force on Guam, Norstad told LeMay that if an invasion took place, it would cost the US "half a million" dead.

In a study done by the Joint Chiefs of Staff in April, it was estimated that a 90-day Olympic campaign would cost 456,000 casualties, including 109,000 dead or missing. If Coronet took another 90 days, the combined cost would be 1,200,000 casualties, with 267,000 fatalities. (Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyūshū, was scheduled for November 1, 1945. Fourteen US divisions were scheduled to take part in the initial landings. The objective would have been to seize the southern portion of Kyūshū. This area would then be used as a further staging point to attack Honshū in Operation Coronet.)

A study done for Secretary of War Henry Stimson estimated that conquering Japan would cost 1.7–4 million American casualties, including 400,000–800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese fatalities. The key assumption was large-scale participation by civilians in the defense of Japan.

The Battle of Okinawa ran up 72,000 US casualties in 82 days, of whom 12,510 were killed or missing (this is conservative, because it excludes several thousand US soldiers who died after the battle indirectly, from their wounds.) The entire island of Okinawa is 464 sq mi (1,200 km2). If the US casualty rate during the invasion of Japan had been only 5% as high per unit area as it was at Okinawa, the US would still have lost 297,000 soldiers (killed or missing).

So best case was about a million dead. Worst case was 14 million. Mr. Truman didn't have the benefit of hindsight.

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Response to Dollface (Reply #238)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:26 PM

417. "Stimson estimated that conquering Japan would cost ... five to ten million Japanese fatalities."

Yes, but then we would have the moral clarity of not having dropped a nuclear weapon. Killing 7 and a half million people with iron bombs and bullets is apparently kinder than 1/60 that many with nukes -- or something.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #142)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:18 PM

190. This type of over the top rhetoric

is just beyond silly. Historical revisionism at best, flame-baiting at worst.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #14)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:19 PM

194. Rejected. Your uh dad needs a better lawyer. "Is mother proud of little boy today?" n/t

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Response to Catherina (Reply #194)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:23 PM

200. Both my father and mother are gone, but thanks for the insult.

 

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Response to tumtum (Reply #200)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:27 AM

372. My Dad is 91 and a veteran of Normandy and...

the Battle of the Bulge. He was preparing for duty in the Pacific when the war ended.

I'm conflicted about what happened, but I'm glad I was not the one to make the decision.

Hey... between the failed Operation Valkyrie and the fall of the Reich, 12 million died.

If only that briefcase had not been moved....

Condolences for your parents. I lost my Mom a few months ago and I don't think I'll ever get over it. I'm sure my Dad won't.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:30 PM

211. It's not a matter of one life....

...it's a matter of many thousands, or even millions, of them.

Dropping the A-bomb on Hiroshima killed a great many civilians, including children. This is deeply tragic, and each one should be mourned. But had we invaded the Japanese main islands, the number of civilian casualties would have been far, far greater. This isn't just a mental experiment - the Allied military had direct empirical evidence that this would be so.

There weren't many battles in the Pacific Theater that were blacked out from media access for much of the action. One of them was the Battle of Saipan, and another was the Battle of Okinawa - and in both cases, the rationale included the horrific number of civilians being killed. (This wasn't the only rationale - just one of them.) We didn't have smart bomb technology, and civilian, military, and industrial targets tended to be linked more tightly than in most Western countries. Plus, many civilians were committing suicide rather than deal with surrender. The decision to drop the A-bombs and end the war before an invasion was necessary was based - not entirely, but in part - on a desire to minimize civilian casualties.

A couple of other factors contributed to the large number of civilian deaths at Hiroshima. First, most US military planners assumed civilians would head for shelter when the bombers showed up, thereby being spared the worst of the blast. But the people of Japan had seen US bombers come and go for many months by then. One or two bombers was a recon mission, weather observation, or maybe delivery of propaganda leaflets - not exactly good, but not really a threat, either. Bombs were dropped by large formations of bombers, not the two or three that would have been involved in the A-bomb attack. So civilians didn't hide when the Enola Gay and the observation planes arrived.

Second, most of the scientists involved assumed (incorrectly) that the radiation resulting from the bomb would be washed out of the soil in a relatively short amount of time.

As for "the Japanese were ready to surrender" - not entirely. Some were, but wanted conditions. There were others in power who really did want to fight to the end.

I do think the Soviet invasion of Manchuria played a role, but not as large a role as others believe, mostly because the scope of the invasion may not have been fully understood at the time of surrender. And anyway, why would being chased out of Manchuria lead to a surrender when being chased out of the Pacific, including islands they'd held since before the war (e.g. Marianas), did not?


My 0.02. I take no pride at the fact that my country stands as the only one, to date, to have used nuclear weapons against another country. But given the mindsets at the time and the reality of what an invasion would have done to all sides, I can accept the rationale behind it.

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Response to cab67 (Reply #211)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:28 AM

360. That assumes we had to invade to end the war.

The entire Japanese war machine had collapsed. We had leveled their entire industrial infrastructure, and they had nothing left to fight with. We could have continued our bombing campaign indefinitely, they likely would have surrendered in under a month anyways. My personal view is that this attack was more a demonstration for the Soviets than it was to compel the Japanese surrender. Though it doesn't matter that much, the firebombing of Tokyo killed more people than Hiroshima did, so where is the thread for them, or the rape of nanking, or the firebombing of Dresden? Why, because nukes are special?

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Response to Sirveri (Reply #360)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 08:01 AM

365. I'm not entirely sure that's true.

Their industrial base was largely destroyed, but they still had 30 effective divisions in the home islands (though I don't know how long they would have remained effective). Those who were running the war saw what happened in Okinawa and assumed that a surrender without a bloody mess wasn't going to happen. Whether they were right or wrong, that's what they assumed, given their experiences to that date.

I agree that threads dedicated to the horrific losses elsewhere during that time would be appropriate.

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Response to Sirveri (Reply #360)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:31 AM

377. The Japanese still had lots to defend the home islands with.

They had 10,000 planes still, of which 2,000 were slated to be used as kamikaze when the invasion started. They had 900,000 army troops who were building defensive positions on Kyushu. The mountains strongly favored defense. Every male, aged 14-60 and female aged 17-40 was being trained to fight. That would be another 28 million. And we already knew from previous battles that they didn't surrender. An invasion against that kind of force would have been very, very bloody.

The alternative to an invasion would have been a blockade. That would haved starved to death millions of elderly and the very young, but the military would have taken locally grown food, enough to survive.

The alternative to the bombs was tens of millions dead.

Russia was no threat to the home islands. What were they going to do? Drive tanks under the ocean? Swim soldiers to Japan? Russia did not have any navy at the time.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #377)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 03:28 PM

433. Correct, the blockade was the alternative.

They were already on their knees looking for a way out to 'save face'. Ego seems to be important to authoritarian leaders, which makes sense if you think about it.

Did the bombs save Japanese lives, it's certainly possible, it's also possible that they were already going to surrender on the 15th, or the 20th even without the bombs.

As for aircraft, they were out of skilled pilots, our win rate against Japanese forces in the air at the end of the war was 10:1. Nothing else would help in a blockade, and their ability to even build more aircraft was seriously compromised. So no need to actually invade, they surrender or we violently disassemble their industrial capacity and leave them to starve on their island.

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Response to Sirveri (Reply #433)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:35 PM

452. Starvation would have killed millions. N/T

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Response to Sirveri (Reply #433)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 07:52 AM

460. So starving hundreds of thousands to death was the moral alternative to the atomic bombs?

do you really believe that?

Violently disassembling their industry meant burning their remaining cities to the ground. Again, is this really the more moral choice?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #460)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 03:56 PM

465. I don't know, because we didn't go that route.

It's possible that they were so close to surrender due to the Soviet invasion of Manchuria that they were going to surrender anyways. It's not possible to say with certainty what would have occurred had we not used the bombs. The bombing of Tokyo killed more people than the use of nuclear weapons, so why would the leadership desire to surrender after their usage when they didn't surrender after Tokyo?

I still believe that they were a show for the Soviets, and possibly also a chance to see what the human health effects of using the weapons were. We still didn't know much about radiation at that time and how it affected the human body. The human health effects testing is a bit more tin foil than I like, but considering the tuskegee experiment it's certainly plausible that such a thing was a factor at some level in the decision.

I'm not sure if that makes the decision more or less ethical. Or that the bombs actually ended the war any sooner.

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Response to cab67 (Reply #211)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:43 PM

448. As a small side note:

The US military, as part of the preperation for the invasion of Japan, ordered 1 million Purple Hearts in 1944. We are still issuing Purple Hearts from that order today.

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Response to cab67 (Reply #211)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:47 PM

449. As a small side note:

The US military, as part of the preparation for the invasion of Japan, ordered 1 million Purple Hearts in 1944. We are still issuing Purple Hearts from that order today.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:35 PM

217. No, but it wasn't quite that simple

Truman had to balance literally millions of lives. The casualty estimates for Operation Downfall were several hundred thousand Allied and millions of Japanese. In anticipation of these casualties we ordered so many Purple Hearts that we are still issuing medals made in WWII- even after all of our casualties in Korea, Vietnam, and in the recent conflicts.



"We see, therefore, that War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means." Carl von Clauseqitz, On War

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #5)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:38 PM

219. "Murica"

 

This about explains it all with your opinion.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #5)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:29 AM

375. Why would it have been better to kill more of them conventionally? n/t

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #5)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:03 PM

412. You don't know what you're talking about.

"...your life is worth more then a baby born elsewhere." In pre-war Japan, that was true. But only if you were talking about a Japanese baby.

The Japanese killed more Chinese, Filipinos, Burmese, pacific islander men, women, and children by BEHEADINGS than Japanese were killed by the United States in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - combined. Japanese newspapers kept track of the "contenders" and published who the contest leaders were and their "head count". Japan never said they wanted to surrender, only a cessation in hostilities. Every former Japanese soldier admit this.

Go read "Unbroken" by L. Hillenbrand for a clue.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:18 PM

35. Same here

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:50 PM

94. That is still not justification for what was done

Yes, war is an awful thing. But what we did was target civilians, women, children and unleashed on them not only death, but a lifetime, generations of pain. We, as a society are supposed to be better then that.

What our country did was a horrible thing, they might have thought it was justified, but it was not. What if the Taliban decided to use atomic weapons on New York? Would they be justified, since we are at war with them?

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #94)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:11 PM

178. Your appeal falls on deaf ears, the lives of thousands of women and children mean less

to such sociopaths than "the tragic dropping of a ham sandwich on the floor", in fact they may actually be upset by damage done to their ham sandwich but they would not feel a thing while observing the torture of children burned alive or fated to die slowly and painfully of radiation poisoning and cancer.

Sociopaths lack empathy, humanity, conscience and decency, the feel nothing for others, they only feel for themselves, such is their pathology.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #94)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:27 PM

205. The morality of any war is decided by the victors.

If the Taliban win over us, they get to claim that we are terrible for not being strict Muslims.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:56 PM

101. History is what it is. Once we knew the bomb worked this "invasion force" became a bluff...

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Response to hunter (Reply #101)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:09 PM

262. Thousands of troops weren't sent steaming toward Japan for a "bluff".

That is the most idiotic point I've seen on this subject. Massive troop movements were not done across an ocean for a bluff, especially at that late stage of the war when resources of every kind were completely drained. My dad was on one of those troop ships, and believe me, it was no myth. The trauma of simply BEING on that ship under the extreme conditions they were in affected him the rest of his life, and he was certainly not alone in that. Bluff, myth? Sure, the whole war was a myth.

This nonsense strikes me as very similar to the Holocaust deniers.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #262)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:49 PM

297. The entire military apparatus was not appraised of the situation.

It was a huge operation and nobody was telling the people in charge, "Hey guys, don't worry about it, we have atomic weapons now."

The "massive troop movements" were a show of force, to both Japan and the Soviet Union. They were not there to invade Japan, even though that's what they all expected, that it would be the worst possible scenario.

The U.S. plan was to drop the two nuclear bombs, back off a bit, isolate Japanese forces and wait for a response. If Japan hadn't surrendered more bombs would have been dropped. If still they didn't surrender, only then would U.S. troops take the Japanese mainland, the way cleared by further atomic bombing.

The Manhattan Project was huge, built from the ground up to fight a full scale atomic war with the Nazis. It was also secret, fewer than 1% of workers knew what they were doing before the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.


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Response to hunter (Reply #297)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:37 PM

315. "only then would U.S. troops take the Japanese mainland"

How does that constitute a "bluff"? An actual, no-kidding invasion was planned if Japan did not surrender, with or without the bomb(s)... so how is that a bluff, much less a myth?

And if you think the bombs that were dropped didn't lessen the US casualties that would've ensued without them, then I don't know what point you're trying to make.

This is what is documented as the situation faced by Truman and his staff: their estimates of 500K US casualties without the bomb were way too low because Japan, while talking surrender, had doubled its forces on Kyushu, the invasion site.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023414088#post298

Additionally:

Maddox further showed how MAGIC intercepts –– in particular the cables between Japan’s foreign minister in Tokyo and its ambassador in Moscow –– and the ULTRA intercepts made it clear to American leaders that Japan was unwilling to surrender on terms remotely consistent with minimum Allied war aims and was instead preparing vigorously for the expected American invasion. Maddox also cited solid documentary evidence that Truman and his advisors saw casualty estimates for the anticipated American invasion of Japan of 500,000 or more and that the president feared staggering losses should the invasion take place.


You are also forgetting that at that time, nobody was even sure how well those bombs would even work. Judging the past by today's perspective was not an option that people had at the time.

The fact that one bomb was not enough to make Japan immediately surrender should clear up anyone's confusion on the subject, as to whether its use was necessary.

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Response to Waiting For Everyman (Reply #315)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 05:20 PM

324. Nevertheless, Japan did surrender.

Truman himself hadn't been told about the Manhattan Project before FDR died. He was fully briefed a few days afterwards.

Most military planners were also out of the loop.

Absolutely, U.S. servicemen headed to Japan had good reason to believe they'd be experiencing a bloody horror -- that they'd be shooting suicidal Japanese old people, women and children jumping out of the bushes with sharpened bamboo sticks, and fired upon by whatever was left of Japanese military forces.

But Japan was already in ruins. Isolation, further firebombing, and monthly atomic bomb drops would have been the end of Japan had they not surrendered. Much of their industrial infrastructure was ruined.

So the planned invasion was moot. It didn't happen. Knowing what we know now, it wouldn't have happened.

Yes, it is a myth that the atomic bomb "saved" American lives. If not atomic bombs, further bombing would have accomplished the same thing. It's also a myth that there was any great uncertainty about the atomic bombs working.

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Response to hunter (Reply #324)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 05:24 PM

326. I'm sorry that isn't even plausible.

The facts say otherwise.

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Response to hunter (Reply #324)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:54 PM

348. Operation Downfall is not a myth and yes Virginia it would have cost may more lives

It was in fact planned. There are two reasons why: 1) Truman decided against dropping the bomb (which he did not know about until after FDR died in April 1945) and 2) If the bomb didn't work.

In the months prior the bombing we had no idea for sure if the bomb would even work. If you want to question that I happen to have a direct source that was alive and involved in Operation Silverplate who had technical knowledge of the bomb.

Trinity did not happen until July 1945, less than one month before Hiroshima.

Barring that the military had to have a plan. There is no way we could have continued to fight the war for at least another year.

You really think had the bomb failed or they decided not to drop it that conventional bombing would have caused them to surrender?

How about the fact that Japan still occupied Korea and parts of other countries? Are you saying the Japanese would have simply left those countries alone?

Yes, there are varying estimates about how many lives would have been lost in an invasion. That I'm willing to agree on. Japan would have lost more lives, the allies would have easily lost 250,000 or more in an invasion.




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Response to davidpdx (Reply #348)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:48 AM

357. See this post... I agree with it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023418815

Few people realize the scale and intensity of the Manhattan project. We had the capacity to build at least two bombs a month by the end of the war, and we did. Even with some refitting of the plutonium production lines in Hanford to fix problems that had been deemed acceptable risks for wartime use, by 1950 we'd already replaced, with improved designs, the 120 "Fat Man" type of bombs we'd built after the Nagasaki bomb. The capacity of the USA to wage war was not even close to being depleted.

There was no uncertainty about the plutonium implosion bomb after the Trinity test. The Uranium bomb was such a sure thing it was first "tested" on Hiroshima.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't about saving lives. It was about sending a message to the world, most especially the Soviet Union. U.S.A. leaders were already thinking well past Japan's inevitable surrender or further destruction.

Yep, our soldiers and sailors heading for Japan fully expected a bloody horror of a fight. But the plan had changed along the way; they simply didn't know that until the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.

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Response to hunter (Reply #357)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:07 AM

400. I do realize the scale and intensity of the Manhattan project

I've read about it in books and talk to people involved with the program. There was a possibility that one of the other bombs could have
not worked or a plan crashed. The B-29's had to use the entire runway to take off. Other plans on Tinian had crashed. To claim it was a done deal is not accurate.

Yep, our soldiers and sailors heading for Japan fully expected a bloody horror of a fight. But the plan had changed along the way; they simply didn't know that until the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima.


The invasion wasn't suppose to start until November (Operation Downfall) so while some soldiers and sailors may have been heading to Japan this was NOT the main offensive under the invasions. The invasion would have lasted 1 to 1 1/2 years and the casualties would have been higher than it was under the bombing of Hiroshimia and Nagasaki.

You are right that no one knew outside of a few high level people about the dropping of the bomb

Once again the revisionist history gets old. Japan was not able to surrender before even the first bombing, and certainly not until after the second. They still had their home land and countries they occupied to fight for.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #400)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 07:02 PM

439. False movie drama...

In the unlikely event one or both of the planes had crashed, there were many more bombs in the pipeline, both conventional and atomic. The industrial capacity of the USA was immense and unreachable by the Japanese.

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Response to hunter (Reply #439)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 08:58 PM

440. It was immense at the time because we had spent 5 years building it up

to fight the Japanese, Germans, and Italians. The truth is you weren't there and don't know how many bombs there were. I've heard varying numbers. The planes crashing or getting shot down were only one possible thing that could have gone wrong. The number of bombs we had after the war is irrelevant.

To flat out deny that the US had a plan to invade Japan is ludicrous. You are engaging in revisionist history by saying the bombings were inevitable and that there were no other plans.

The choice was either bomb the two cities or invade with troops. You and other's can keep pushing the idea that Japan was going to surrender or that we could have bombed them conventionally to get them to surrender.

Let me be very clear in what I am saying. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki quickly ended the war with Japan.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #440)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:08 PM

443. Yes, we had plans to invade Japan in a horrible battle.

A huge buildup.

But the people at the very top had a different play book with two goals: Give Japan the opportunity to surrender, and "Hey Stalin, look at this!"

The amoral war people, the genocidal "Enders Game" dudes essential to any real world war effort wanted to see what atomic weapons would do to a living city. There were even a few who wanted to try atomic bombs out as tactical weapons, and they were probably disappointed that Japan surrendered so easily.

Furthermore we do know exactly what our bomb making capacity was. The surrender of Japan, the abandonment of "gun-type" uranium bombs, and the safety upgrades of Hanford following the end of the war slowed production down very slightly, but it's a fact the USA could have dropped conventional bombs and atomic bombs on Japan for as long as we chose to with no invasion.

A society bombed and nuked back to preindustrial technologies was no longer a real threat. Theres nothing "revisionist" about that.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:57 PM

105. I've got to agree

The nuclear bombs were horrible, but so was the rest of it.

The low estimate from the bombing deaths in the first few months is around 150K, the high closer to 250K. About 300K Chinese died in the Nanking massacre alone.

The losses in the Pacific war were horrific, and most of them were civilians. The estimate for China is 4 million directly dead, closer to 20 million indirectly dead. The Bengal famine of 1943 is believed to have killed at least 1.5 million civilians.
http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/a/Casualties.htm

Ending the war was a humanitarian triumph. If we had been forced to invade, the civilian casualties in Japan would have been much worse.

That having been said, I do think there is justification for the use of the nuclear bombs just to prevent the casualties of the Allied soldiers.

The Japanese observed no rules of war. Their atrocities are so well documented that they should need no mention. The Japanese were engaging in germ warfare in China and had even attempted a sub attack on the US in the final months of the war. Vivisection, germ warfare on civilian populations - they needed to go down, and their leadership could not be permitted to slaughter off millions more of the Japanese population.

The children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were guilty of nothing, and the guilt of their deaths rests squarely upon the Japanese leadership of the time.

Anyone who can mourn Hiroshima and Nagasaki without factoring what happened to China, Unit 731, the diseases spread deliberately in China, and what this sub was intended to do is not my idea of an ethicist:
http://boingboing.net/2005/03/25/gigantic-wwii-japane.html

http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/unit731-part1.htm
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2013-08/06/c_132606415.htm

The suffering in China is still not over, btw:
http://www.dontow.com/2009/04/japans-biological-and-chemical-warfare-in-china-during-wwii/

WWII was so hideous that we are happy and perhaps wise to forget, but we cannot forget almost everything and remember JUST the horror of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #105)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 04:59 PM

469. Well put

Had the invasion gone forward, the US would have been criticized for barbarically killing civilians in their own country.

Japan was not going to simply capitulate in the early summer of 1945. Either way, people would have died. We were in the middle of a war that had be going on for almost four years.

People can continue pushing their revisionist bullshit that we didn't have to do the bombing, that the invasion was never going to happen, that Japan was on the verge of surrendering, etc. etc.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:00 PM

110. Not true. My mom was there.

Her home was bombed in Tokyo. Completely destroyed. And even her family wasn't taught to hate or hurt anybody. Where'd you come up with that?

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:09 PM

122. Sounds more like an irrational emotional response than a cogent argument

BTW nice war toy pics.

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Response to whatchamacallit (Reply #122)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:17 PM

125. Irrational to you,

 

rational to me.
Those pics are the aircraft I flew during my Army career, I couldn't fit the Blackhawk in.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:23 PM

131. The Japanese were already discussing terms of surrender

We wanted an unconditional surrender.

They wanted to keep the emperor.

We got an unconditional surrender, and let them keep the emperor, which would have been the same result of accepting the conditions of surrender they had already proposed before we dropped the bomb.

The "we would have had to invade" is a false dichotomy.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #131)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:20 PM

195. You are badly misinformed.

They rejected the Potsdam Declaration. They wanted an armistice that would have left their gov't in place and no occupation of Japan, no war crimes trials except by Japanese courts. That way they could have rearmed and made another try for conquest in twenty years.
And they were willing to keep fighting to the last man, woman, or child. The nukes ended that idea.

The Emperor was allowed to live but he was required to renounce his divinity and to take orders from us. We used him as a puppet for a few years.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #131)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:12 PM

305. Nope.

The Potsdam Declaration does not call for unconditional surrender.

And here's what the Japanese high command was saying to itself before the Hiroshima bombing:
We can no longer direct the war with any hope of success. The only course left is for Japan's one hundred million people to sacrifice their lives by charging the enemy to make them lose the will to fight.

Boy, that sure looks like people who were ready to lay down their arms!

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:50 PM

145. Yup, same as my husband's father. They were warned THREE times, for fuck's sake.

It wasn't exactly a sucker punch.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:29 PM

209. Very true

There was a faction in Japan that was going to continue to fight. Defeat and failure was not acceptable to them. That goes back centuries. It's just their culture.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:32 PM

214. Uh, dude? You need to read your own quote more closely.

You totally undermined your own argument with that quote. The emperor was saying that they should NOT continue to fight.

Hey, why not read a history book or two? Might learn something.

Sorry, but you FAIL.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:36 PM

218. You're right, my dad was being sent to be in the first stage invasion too.

It amazes me that people who weren't even living then have the temerity to argue with people who were part of the event, and with the factual record.

Instead of popping off with second-hand revisionism, people should educate themselves first... this link discusses all of the significant works on the subject, and dissects the valid from the fake. Any nitwit can write a book, and lots of them are written by people with an agenda other than the truth (often the payoff is money, or position, "scholarship" was corrupted a long time ago).

http://www.theamericanpresident.us/images/truman_bomb.pdf

I'll slam America anytime it's deserved, but this isn't one of those times. ALL of WW2 was horrific. Check out the bombing of London sometime.

I also had a father-in-law who was on board one of the ships in Pearl Harbor, and survived. Remember that Japan didn't have to start the war with us in the first place. There is no doubt that if Japan had developed the bomb first, they would've used it. So would the Germans. So would any of the nations involved for that matter.

Yes, lives were lost and that is tragic. It's also true that lives exist now that would not otherwise. That is a fact too, that matters just as much as other facts. And yes, it is now proven. Japanese communications that were declassified in the 70's conclusively proves it. That is after the revisionism on this subject was well on its way to being accepted as a fad "truth".

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:55 PM

244. I know my grandpa worked on one of the planes that dropped it

It's ugly but it took 2 not 1 bomb to convince them ... Japan didn't care enough for one city. It had to be two. And they still don't care about their own people with a leaking Nuclear plant I shall assume your from Japan. How's Sea shepherd there??

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:03 PM

301. I'm sure there's quite a few of us here who wouldn't be were it not for those bombs

My Dad was MAW (Marine Air Wing) on a PBJ crew scheduled for close air support in the initial invasions. And fuck the revisionist assholes and ignorant ideologues, it was the best alternative in the totality of the circumstances at the time.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:42 PM

339. Did you actually read the quote? Specifically sentence #2?

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #339)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 09:09 PM

341. They weren't ready to surrender until the 2nd bomb was exploded,

 

even then it was a 3-3 tie and the Emperor had to break that tie in favor of surrender.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 08:41 AM

366. EXACTLY!!!

I just ignore the voices of those who have the privilege of 75yrs & not having any responsibility at the time as to how to end the nastiest war the world had ever seen. I would NEVER claim I knew the best way to end that war...How arrogant is that? SAD!!

"Thank-You" to both YOU & your Dad for your service!!

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:08 AM

367. Another one here

tumtum,
My dad was going to be in the second wave of the invasion. The first wave would have had about a 100% fatality rate. The second would have had about the same. When he was part of the Army of Occupation, he saw the sharpened bamboo that you speak of. He also saw crude spears that the civilians were ordered to fight with. Had we not dropped the bombs, the blood bath would have been one of the worst in history. Not only would American troops be killed in unprecedented numbers, the Japanese population would have been killed in numbers that we can not imagine. Decimate does not even come close. The death toll would have been so large that it would have to be expressed in what percentage of the entire population perished instead of simple numbers.
It is easy for people who did not have skin in the game to "revise" history to satisfy their perception of right and wrong. The reality of what happened at that place and at that time was such that the bomb was the most effective method of bring the war to a swift end. As to the numbers of civilians killed, no one seems to remember how many we killed with fire-bombing Dresden or Tokyo. The revisionist also forget how many Chinese died at Japanese hands. War is dirty and cruel. I am happy that we won.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #1)

Fri Aug 9, 2013, 01:18 AM

476. The A-Bombs were a message to the Soviets.

 

Japan was finished. My RW uncle believes the BS of the time. I don't.

You don't realize the tension after the American and Soviet troops met on the bridge at Torgau. It was only "happy smiley" in the official photos.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:56 AM

2. And...we're off!

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:57 AM

3. In more ways than one.

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:12 PM

25. Vegas odds, anybody? nt

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Response to Brickbat (Reply #2)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:11 AM

369. Wow, 2nd response now 4th from the last of over 350

People can sure get worked up when a troll comes in the room and farts.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:57 AM

4. my grandfather would have been on the ships for the invasion, after they

pulled shrapnel from his chest on Okinawa.

Talking surrender is not surrender.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:00 PM

6. I don't have to justify anything

Many of us posting here weren't even alive. Am I going to beat myself up over it? Not even a little bit.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #6)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:01 PM

8. Then this post wasn't for you.

 

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #8)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:05 PM

13. Than by all means post

links to any comment that treats this as anything other than a necessary evil. Japan declared war on us and then aligned themselves with a country that was putting people in ovens. You want me to cry over Hiroshima?

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #13)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:07 PM

18. If you don't cry over Hiroshima...

 

...then you have chosen country over humanity, drunk the cool aid to make life less difficult.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:22 PM

42. Because "you" say so?

How freeking laughable. I'll save my tears for those who didn't attack us and for those whose families were decimated by the Axis powers. You want to make the US into the boogieman in WWII, knock yourself out make yourself look foolish.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:27 PM

51. +1000.

 

Unfuckingbelievable.
We're supposed to feel guilt over the bombing of Japan, a country that started the pacific war, committed untold atrocities, just because the OP says so?
As I said, unfuckingbelievable.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:45 PM

82. +1 000 000 000

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:54 PM

153. "I'll save my tears for those who didn't attack us and those families decimated by the Axis powers".

Good thought.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:15 PM

185. Agreed.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:20 PM

196. Another + 100,000.

for injecting a bit of sanity into this otherwise insane discussion.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:25 PM

203. You want to feel self righteous by having a guilt trip over it, go ahead.

I refuse to feel the smallest bit guilty about what was done to Japan. Their leadership brought it on them.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #203)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:28 PM

208. I think you meant to answer someone else

The one trying to make everyone feel guilty. I'm in complete agreement with you.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #208)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:52 PM

235. OOPS. Sorry. In long threads like this I sometimes respond to the wrong one.

Thanks for correcting me.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #42)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:46 PM

226. No Man is an Island


No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.


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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #18)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:37 PM

71. Is this satire?

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Response to LordGlenconner (Reply #71)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:22 PM

309. Go look it up. Didn't you take history in school?

Geez.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #18)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:00 AM

398. Irrational Revisionism... we dropped the bomb. Get over it.

China is still pissed at Japan for their cruelty.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:01 PM

7. As long as you won't justify the killing of my 14 relatives at pearl harbor.

Or the thousands of LGBT brothers & sisters & millions of jewish fellow human beings and also let's not forget the countless Chinese lives lost. Wheres your outrage there? Thats what I thought.

War is hell and we did not start it. Say what you want this is the only time I will visit this thread and I have already trashed all the other despicable threads on this subject.

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Response to William769 (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:04 PM

11. Wait...

 

Wasn't Pearl Harbor a "preventative strike"? Thought America is a-ok with that?

As for the other atrocities you mentioned, the entire world was/is outraged by them and took the appropriate action. But that has exactly nothing to do with America committing the largest single terrorist act in human history.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:07 PM

17. Japan aligned themselves with Hitler

They got what they deserved. And no - not everybody took appropriate action against the nazis. Plenty of them handed their Jews, Gypsies and other "undesirables" with no conscience whatsoever.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:11 PM

24. You're justifying Pearl Harbor? I call troll. nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #24)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:13 PM

26. I can justify...

 

...the preventative MILITARY strike on PH WAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY easier then anyone could justify incinerated a few hundred thousand innocent civilians.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #26)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:15 PM

30. "preventative military strike" = troll nt

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #30)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:20 PM

39. Lol, I thought I = American policy.

 

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:24 PM

47. Was the incineration of Tokyo smaller, or just not a 'terrorist act'?

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #47)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:21 PM

128. And Dresden.

Isn't it odd (not) how we determined what "war crimes" were depending upon whether our side did them, or theirs did.

ETA: approximately 100,000 died in Tokyo in a single night.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #47)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 07:03 AM

364. So your idea of justifying nuclear annihilation of cities...

is to say that the conventional annihilation of cities by the same government was even worse?

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:30 PM

61. The largest single terrorist act in human history?

 

Holy shit!!!!
You actually believe that?

I actually feel pity for you.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #61)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:39 PM

74. Here's what I believe...

 

Intentionally incinerating hundreds of thousands of civilians for no other reason but to terrorize the nation into surrender is the single largest terrorist act in history.

This is just a fact. The reason you don't agree is because you can't take the red white and blue glasses off. By your logic, every suicide bomber in Iraq is just a patriotic freedom fighter.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #74)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:42 PM

78. NO.

 

It's your warped sense of fact, not history's fact.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #78)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:01 PM

164. Which fact is wrong? Bombing the hell out of Japan was meant to terrorize them.

What other terrorizing act in history was greater or caused more death and destruction of innocent people?

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #164)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:09 PM

175. How about the rape of Nanking? Over 300,000 murdered by the Japanese,

 

how about Hitler's death camps? Millions upon millions murdered.
We could go around and around all day, in the end, neither of us are going to convince the other that our position is the correct one.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #175)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:05 PM

258. No. Terrorism and extermination are not the same thing. n/t

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #258)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:06 PM

302. Did...

The Jewish people not live in constant fear for their lives and that of their familys?

The definition of Terrorism is the systematic use of violence to create a climate of fear in order to bring about a political objective.

Under this definition, the Holocaust does classify as a act of terrorism.

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Response to Lancero (Reply #302)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 08:40 PM

338. Still no. The extermination of the Jews was meant to exterminate them, not scare them.

They weren't trying to create a climate of fear. They were trying to eliminate them.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #338)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 09:14 PM

342. The climate

Doesn't have to be intentional - Only that it was the systematic use of violence that created it.

And this is what happened. The systematic use of violence, leading to a climate of fear, with the ultimate goal to be complete extermination.

Read any book about the Holocaust that has been written by either a survivor or with their input. I'm willing to bet that they will, at one point, say "I feared for my life".

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #338)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:54 AM

385. wrong spot. nt



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Response to Dawgs (Reply #258)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:59 AM

386. You're grasp of history of that time is just appalling

I had relatives who lived in Nazi Germany, did you?

Did you hear or even read about the things that the Nazi's did to the Jewish, Gypsy, LGBT, Leftists populations prior to their extermination? Prior to the run up to the "final solution"?

Holy cow. My god, you simply have zero clue in this matter. Zero. None.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #386)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:49 AM

395. The only thing that's appalling is your ability to read and comprehend. n/t

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #395)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:58 AM

397. Oh what a clever retort.



You thinking that there is no linkage between terrorism and extermination is colossally laughable.

I can give you countless examples from history, but alas, you seem to feel that your ignorant position is correct, so I won't even try. Because rather than support your assertion you resort to droll replies.

Good day.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #397)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 03:35 PM

434. Wasn't being clever, just honest and factual.

I NEVER said there wasn't linkage between terrorism and extermination. You just pulled that out of your ass.



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Response to Dawgs (Reply #164)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 09:15 PM

343. Gassing the hell out of innocent people. nt

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Response to William769 (Reply #343)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:34 AM

379. Can't be terrorized when you're already dead. n/t

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #379)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:04 AM

388. Holy cow!

do you know what it was like to ride in a train car in sub zero weather to a camp knowing that you are going to die?

Or systematically watch as members of your own family get shot before your eyes but you were allowed to live because you could do work?

There are story after story of people in concentration camps that knew perfectly well what went on in the "showers" and they prayed every day that they wouldn't be picked all the while living on a diet of less than 400 calories a day, sometimes less.

my god, you really need to educate yourself.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #164)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 10:56 PM

346. No, if we wanted terror we'd have just kept with the firebombings

Way easier, and far more destructive - remember a single firebombing raid on Tokyo killed more than both nukes combined.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #74)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:51 PM

96. So you are really referring to the fire bombing of Tokyo 9 March 1945

An act that incinerated over a 100,000 people and injured another million - more immediate deaths than either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #74)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:52 PM

97. I guess you never learned about Temujin.

But keep on believing your version of history.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #144)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:52 PM

149. I love how you guys

 

Keep justifying our atrocities by pointing to the atrocities of others. I must have stumbled onto a conservative website.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #149)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:55 PM

156. "greatest terrorist act in history"...

but raping and killing over a quarter of a million people over the span of a few months in one city isn't, I suppose? I think that you have a ridiculous lack of perspective.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #156)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:58 PM

159. I said single greatest...

 

...terrorist act, meaning a single act. Obviously there have worse genocides and atrocities over periods of time. But as far as a single attack, nothing touches dropping those nukes

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #159)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:02 PM

168. Plus, those weren't "terrorist" acts. They weren't meant to scare anyone. n/t

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #168)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:34 AM

378. You really believe that the use of atomic weapons wasn't meant to scare anyone?

Really? You don't think that maybe it was intended to scare Japan into surrendering? You don't think that maybe (as many leaders at the time have said) it was intended to scare Stalin?

You might want to do some more research.

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Response to ET Awful (Reply #378)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:36 AM

380. You need to learn to read. My argument is that using atomic bombs WAS meant to terrorize.

Don't just read my post. Read the whole thread.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #380)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:41 AM

383. You need to keep your snark in check.

There are better ways to address a response to someone who is on your side of an argument and mistakenly replied to a post out of order.

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Response to ET Awful (Reply #383)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 09:45 AM

384. You're right. It's my fault. n/t

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #159)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:05 PM

170. No?

That it wasn't done by one aircrew in one bomber doesn't make it any less a single thing. The brutal rape and slaughter of a city's civilian population by the soldiers of the Japanese Army wasn't as instantaneous but it was no less part of a single directed act of state policy aimed at terrorising the Chinese into submission.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #149)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:59 PM

160. You're quite free to leave, nobody's forcing you to post here.

 

Many of us have fathers who fought in the war, have fathers who, as was mine, in the slated invasion force, so, in that context, I have no problem with Truman's decision to use the bombs to hasten the end of the war and no amount of hand wringing by such as yourself will ever change my mind.

If you don't like that, too bad.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #160)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:02 PM

165. Well that does explain it.

 

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #165)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:04 PM

169. Yep. Seems to ultimately be the argument by many on this topic. n/t

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #169)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:12 PM

180. As opposed to yours and his arguments?

 

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Response to tumtum (Reply #180)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:05 PM

259. Correct. I'm against killing anyone that's innocent. You, apparantely, are okay with it. n/t

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #165)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:05 PM

171. For me it does, and that's all that matters,

 

not what you think.
Sorry if I'm being so frank, but I am what I am.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #171)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:12 PM

182. I respect your feelings...

 

...but understand this is why current military families think the Iraq war was just.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #182)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:18 PM

191. Really? We are, we don't

Any other assumptions you would like to make?

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #182)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:28 PM

207. Really?

 

I don't, and I am the grandparent of an Iraqi veteran. My daughter and her husband didn't think that way either.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #182)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:41 PM

222. Wrong Again

Lots of us do not think Iraq was just, and many of us have the scars to prove it. Your assumptions on this and other Wars shows a total lack of understanding on context, in the moment decision making.



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Response to tumtum (Reply #171)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:08 PM

261. It seems like you can't see the difference between soldier and innocent civilian.

Am I wrong?

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #261)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:23 PM

275. If you have civilians ready to kill you, then no,

 

there is no distinction in wartime.

Germany and Japan would have attacked us with nuclear bombs if they had gotten them first, we beat them to the punch, and I won't feel any guilt over it.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #275)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:24 PM

279. Finally. Why didn't you say that a long time ago. 'During wartime, killing civilians is fine.'

It would have saved some of us a lot of time.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #279)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:28 PM

282. Why should it have to have been said?

 

We are talking about WWII.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #149)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:42 PM

317. Stopping further atrocities is not terrorizing

 

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #74)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:42 PM

224. You are sort of correct.

Your use of the word 'terrorist' by today's standards is a bit of hyperbole. Hiwever, the bombs were meant to scare the shit out of the Japanese, or to terrorize them, to convince them they lost the war and need to surrender.

The terrorists of today, by definition, are not part of an army of a national government.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #61)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:21 AM

403. It was a mass killing of mostly civilians.

Sounds like terrorism to me, to shock Japan into surrendering.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:36 PM

70. I love this revisionist history

All of it


WW 2 is the closest to an actual just war...and it was partly accidental

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #70)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:15 PM

124. +1

I'd be willing to say it was the **last** actual just war.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:46 PM

85. It wasn't even the deadliest attack in WWII, much less history. nt

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:03 PM

257. LOL, "preventative" strike. Get your terms straight. Then we'll talk. nt

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #11)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:44 PM

320. here's a shovel, keep digging...

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Response to William769 (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:04 PM

12. + fucking 1

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Response to William769 (Reply #7)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:17 PM

188. A. Fucking. Men. William769. You rock.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:02 PM

9. Could have been different

If the Japanese were talking of surrender instead of surrounder they might have had a better chance. Bomb an uninhabited island to show the power, then what, post on YouTube for the Japanese to see and get scared?

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Response to 4Q2u2 (Reply #9)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:58 PM

248. Wahahahahaha! They'd been talking surrender for MONTHS!

MONTHS!

Go forth, educate thyself!

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #248)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:06 PM

260. Read the original Post from Phillyindie

They misspelled surrender in that post, they had it spelled surrounder. I was satirizing their righteous indignation.

Oops

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #248)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:18 PM

272. Crickets

Crickets

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:04 PM

10. You forgot the "I'm kidding" smilie

Oh, wait there ain't one.

Your ignorance of the reality on the ground then is matched only by your hubris.

Enjoy your stay at DU!!

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #10)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:05 PM

15. Please enlightened me...

 

...as to what circumstances justify incinerating tens of thousands of innocent children and babies.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #15)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:15 PM

29. I don't think you are ready to hear this but estimates are that as many as 1 million U.S.

 

soldiers would have died in an invasion of the Japanese home islands (and probably as many Japanese soldiers and civilians). So, while the atomic bombs may have killed many thousands of innocent civilians, the toll would have been far, far worse had we invaded using conventional forces.

So what should Truman and MacArthur have done?

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #29)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:21 PM

41. Japanese were talking surrender

 

The bombs weren't to stop the war, they were a demonstration of dominance.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #41)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:29 PM

54. There were no official or formal peace negotiations going on, I'm sorry

 

to inform you. Some factions within the Japanese intelligence services were putting forward informal 'peace feelers' that proposed keeping the Emperor in place and a general armistice that would have allowed Japan to re-arm and forbidden Allied occupation.

The dominant faction in the Japanese military adamantly wanted to continue fighting, even after the 2nd bomb was dropped.

Your argument is belied not just by Truman's words and actions but by Hirohito's in explaining why Japan was surrendering.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #41)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:30 PM

59. because talking about something is the SAME THING as doing it, right?

 

I don't think so!


TALK IS FUCKING CHEAP!!!

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #41)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:51 PM

298. And while "talking surrender" they were MASSIVELY FORTIFYING Kyushu. For nothing???

ULTRA reports –– which were not declassified until the mid-1970s –– were forwarded on a daily basis to top U.S. policy makers in Washington, including White House officials, along with diplomatic, or MAGIC, intercepts. What ULTRA showed during late June and throughout July was a massive Japanese buildup of unanticipated scale on the southernmost home island of Kyushu, precisely where the first stage of the two-stage invasion of Japan, called Olympic, was scheduled to take place on November 1. (The second stage, Coronet, was aimed at the Tokyo plain and scheduled for March 1946. The overall plan to invade Japan was designated Downfall.) Not only did the buildup testify to Japan’s determination to fight to the bitter end, but it invalidated any previous military estimates of the casualties such an invasion would cost. ULTRA showed that by early August the number of Japanese defenders on Kyushu was almost double what the U.S. had expected (ULTRA actually underestimated the number of Japanese troops by a third) and that Olympic would be “very costly indeed.” Drea’s evidence thus undermined two key parts of the revisionist case: that Japan was seriously considering surrender in the summer of 1945 and that the lower casualty estimates cited by revisionists, all of which dated from before American military planners learned of the Japanese buildup on Kyushu, were the ones accepted by the top American decision makers in Washington.

http://www.theamericanpresident.us/images/truman_bomb.pdf (page 6) I highly recommend the entire link to anyone who is interested in sorting out this controversy objectively.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #29)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:33 PM

64. Don't bring in MacArthur.

He was opposed to the bomb. As was Eisenhower. It was Truman making a political decision not a military one.

"MacArthur's views about the decision to drop the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were starkly different from what the general public supposed....When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor." As we've already seen, both Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower and Truman's chief of staff, Admiral William Leahy, had voiced protest about using the bomb over Japanese cities.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/countdown-to-hiroshima-fo_b_3707531.html

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Response to former9thward (Reply #64)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:40 PM

77. MacArthur was supreme Allied commander of Pacific forces. Without the decision to use

 

nuclear weapons, he would have had command of the invasion forces.

So my question to the OP was, if you have a weapon that will shorten the war by many months and forestall many casualties thereby, even while it causes many casualties but you don't use that weapon, what do you do instead??

MacArthur's personal views on the bomb (seemingly after the fact) have no relevance to the question of what his orders would have been absent the bomb's use and what strategy he might have employed to implement those orders.





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Response to former9thward (Reply #64)


Response to ieoeja (Reply #227)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:54 PM

240. Truman was president both times. N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #240)


Response to ieoeja (Reply #227)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:30 PM

312. Right it was all political.

I guess that is why Eisenhower opposed it also. Just because Truman was a Democrat. No military considerations whatsoever. Too bad we did not have you there as Pacific theater commander. The war would have been over so much sooner.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #312)


Response to former9thward (Reply #312)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 10:48 PM

345. Ike's comments were extremely political

His comments were in the 1960s or later, when our new very close ally, Japan, was a great help in the Cold War. Plus nuclear weapons were now reviled for their after-effects instead of viewed as just a big bomb.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #345)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 11:48 PM

347. No his comments were in 1945.

He made them to the Secretary of War before the bomb was dropped. Try again.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #347)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:33 AM

393. Sorry, no.

The quote people use from Ike is from his memoirs. Published in the 1960s. Because that one fits the story they want to tell better.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #393)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:41 AM

394. And there were hundreds of people alive then who would know the truth.

Including Truman himself. Did any contradict the quote? No.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #394)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:50 AM

396. Because as I said above

We had a shiny new ally in the Cold War named Japan.

Every other option Truman had would have killed 100 times more people than the bombs. Invasion would kill tens of millions. Blockade would kill tens of millions via famine. Armistice would kill tens of millions in the next war (Japan had been launching a major war every generation for quite a while).

The nukes killed less than a million.

So yeah, clearly we should have gone with one of the other options. That way instead of having a spectacular event you can rail against, far more people would have died in easier-to-ignore clumps over years.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #396)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:08 AM

401. The Japanese were getting ready to surrender.

All they wanted was the Emperor to remain. We rejected that and the war continued. We finally accepted that demand and the war ended. That is why Eisenhower, MacArthur and Truman's Chief of Staff Admiral Leahy were all against the bomb. There was no point to it.

And the bomb did not even end the war anyway. That is history from the U.S. side.

That is history from the U.S. side. Japanese historians say the war ended due to the Soviet declaration of war on August 7 and the invasion of Manchuria.

As Hasegawa writes in his book “Racing the Enemy,” the Japanese leadership reacted with concern, but not panic. On Aug. 7, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo sent an urgent coded telegram to his ambassador in Moscow, asking him to press for a response to the Japanese request for mediation, which the Soviets had yet to provide. The bombing added a “sense of urgency,” Hasegawa says, but the plan remained the same.

Very late the next night, however, something happened that did change the plan. The Soviet Union declared war and launched a broad surprise attack on Japanese forces in Manchuria. In that instant, Japan’s strategy was ruined. Stalin would not be extracting concessions from the Americans. And the approaching Red Army brought new concerns: The military position was more dire, and it was hard to imagine occupying communists allowing Japan’s traditional imperial system to continue. Better to surrender to Washington than to Moscow.

By the morning of Aug. 9, the Japanese Supreme War Council was meeting to discuss the terms of surrender. (During the meeting, the second atomic bomb killed tens of thousands at Nagasaki.) On Aug. 15, the Japanese surrendered unconditionally. How is it possible that the Japanese leadership did not react more strongly to many tens of thousands of its citizens being obliterated?
One answer is that the Japanese leaders were not greatly troubled by civilian causalities. As the Allies loomed, the Japanese people were instructed to sharpen bamboo sticks and prepare to meet the Marines at the beach.

Yet it was more than callousness. The bomb - horrific as it was - was not as special as Americans have always imagined. In early March, several hundred B-29 Super Fortress bombers dropped incendiary bombs on downtown Tokyo. Some argue that more died in the resulting firestorm than at Hiroshima. People were boiled in the canals. The photos of charred Tokyo and charred Hiroshima are indistinguishable

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/?page=3

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Response to former9thward (Reply #401)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:44 AM

411. Japanese Emperor Hirohito disagrees with your revisionism.

From his surrender speech of Aug 15, 1945: The enemy, moreover, has begun to employ a new most cruel bomb, the power which to do damage is indeed incalculable, taking toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would only result in the ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation . . . but would lead also to the total extinction of human civilization. Such being the case, how are we to save millions of our subjects, or ourselves, to atone before the hallowed spirits of our Imperial ancestors? This is the reason we have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of the Powers.
http://www.japanorama.com/surrendr.html

Further, Russia was no threat to the Japanee home islands. Russia was a land power, not a sea power. They had only a tiny navy. For them, defeating the Nazis meant they needed an army and an air force, not a navy. The Japanese troops in Manchuria were already lost to Japan as they had been isolated from Japan by the U.S. Navy. What could Russia do to the Japanese home islands? Drive tanks under the sea? Have soldiers swim to Japan?

The A-bomb gave the leaders of Japan a way to surrender without further loss of face.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #411)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:09 PM

413. Yeah i guess Eisenhower, MacArthur were idiots.

Also Trumans's Chief of Staff Admiral Leahy. They didn't have a clue.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #413)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:34 PM

418. Hirohito was the one who did the surrendering.

I will take his word for why he surrendered.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #418)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 01:42 PM

424. Except he did not surrender.

Hirohito did not sign anything. The Japanese military command did. Hirohito said whatever he needed to say to put the best face on it. The U.S. military commanders knew best the military situation. Truman dropped the bomb as a political decision against military wishes.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #424)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:18 PM

427. Hirohito DID do the surrendering

The "Big 6" of Japan's leadership was divided 3-3. Hirohito decided it was over. He recorded a speech to be played to the nation announcing the surrender. It was his decision. There was a coup that night before against him that almost succeeded. But they couldn't find the recording, which was then played to the nation the next day. That doomed the coup.

That he didn't sign anything is trivial. He was the one who ordered the surrender.

The only military commanders who had input were the ones who knew about it. Ike and the others were speaking after the fact when it was safe to say how horrible it was.

Yes, the bomb gave the Japanese a face saving way to quit. And that is not a bad thing.

What would you have done?

Blockade - starved millions.

Invasion - Millions die in the fighting.

Let the Japanese militaristic gov't continue - Fight them again in 20 years.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #427)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:53 PM

432. Nice try at re-writing history.

Eisenhower did know about it and protested its use to the Secretary of War beforehand. Hirohito was one vote out of seven. Your attempt at bolding does not make it different. If the vote was 4-2 then the 4 would carried no matter what side it was.

What would I have done? What Eisenhower and MacArthur wanted. Wait. Japan was on the verge of surrender. They would have already but they wanted to keep the Emperor. We rejected that and the war went on. Then finally we agreed to that and the war stopped. Japan did not surrender because of the bomb. They surrendered because the Soviets declared war on August 7. They knew the Soviets would never allow the Emperor so they surrendered to the U.S.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #432)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 11:34 PM

451. The Soviets were no threat to Japan.

How could Russia invade Japan without a navy? Hirohito says they surrendered because of the bomb. He was there. So I believe him.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #15)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:29 PM

55. Silly

4.5 years of total war on a nearly world wide basis doesn't get counted in your demand for circumstances?
An impossibly high standard. Your godlike status is a source of envy.
GAC

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Response to ProfessorGAC (Reply #55)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:42 PM

80. I didn't realize...

 

...having the basic morality that says dropping nukes on civilians is wrong makes you God like.

But, this is America...

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #80)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:25 PM

202. Hiroshima bombing

I am THANKFUL you were not in charge back in that time. That one instance was absolutely necessary and perfect. The bombs saved TONS of lives. It was a brilliant conclusion to the World War. Besides we were hit in Hawaii so they deserved to be paid back! Good on Truman and the other adults in the room. Phillyindy and the other children run along.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #15)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:49 PM

93. The Japanese alliance with the Nazis was sufficient for that, and it ENDED the war.

"If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Japan entered that kitchen of their own free will.

"You made your bed, now lie in it" also comes to mind.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #93)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:37 PM

314. No it did not end the war.

That is history from the U.S. side. Japanese historians say the war ended due to the Soviet declaration of war on August 7 and the invasion of Manchuria.

As Hasegawa writes in his book “Racing the Enemy,” the Japanese leadership reacted with concern, but not panic. On Aug. 7, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo sent an urgent coded telegram to his ambassador in Moscow, asking him to press for a response to the Japanese request for mediation, which the Soviets had yet to provide. The bombing added a “sense of urgency,” Hasegawa says, but the plan remained the same.

Very late the next night, however, something happened that did change the plan. The Soviet Union declared war and launched a broad surprise attack on Japanese forces in Manchuria. In that instant, Japan’s strategy was ruined. Stalin would not be extracting concessions from the Americans. And the approaching Red Army brought new concerns: The military position was more dire, and it was hard to imagine occupying communists allowing Japan’s traditional imperial system to continue. Better to surrender to Washington than to Moscow.

By the morning of Aug. 9, the Japanese Supreme War Council was meeting to discuss the terms of surrender. (During the meeting, the second atomic bomb killed tens of thousands at Nagasaki.) On Aug. 15, the Japanese surrendered unconditionally. How is it possible that the Japanese leadership did not react more strongly to many tens of thousands of its citizens being obliterated?
One answer is that the Japanese leaders were not greatly troubled by civilian causalities. As the Allies loomed, the Japanese people were instructed to sharpen bamboo sticks and prepare to meet the Marines at the beach.

Yet it was more than callousness. The bomb - horrific as it was - was not as special as Americans have always imagined. In early March, several hundred B-29 Super Fortress bombers dropped incendiary bombs on downtown Tokyo. Some argue that more died in the resulting firestorm than at Hiroshima. People were boiled in the canals. The photos of charred Tokyo and charred Hiroshima are indistinguishable


http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2011/08/07/why_did_japan_surrender/?page=3

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:07 PM

16. Total war is so far removed from current human memory...

that people have no concept of the opinions of that time.

Total war was why FDR imprisoned 120,000 Japanese-Americans.
Total war was why Dresden was firebombed.
Total war was why Tokyo was firebombed.
Total war was why Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed with atomic weapons.

There was no holding back. No "gentlemanly" war. They did what they thought they needed to do to defeat their opponent.

Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #16)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:15 PM

28. Funny you don't mention that the first two cities to be firebombed were

Were Coventry & London.

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Response to William769 (Reply #28)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:30 PM

58. We bombed Coventry and London?

Musta been a mistake I'm sure.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #58)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:36 PM

69. Are you serious?

Joking about all the people that died because the little evil a man wanted to dominate the world?

Whatever floats your boat.

ETA: for people with reading comprehension Germany was the first to start the fire bombings, they were also the first to use the V1 & V2 rockets against civilian populations. If you need more of a history lesson, I'll be more than happy to help you out.

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Response to William769 (Reply #69)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:42 PM

79. Are you?

It was a list of places that WE bombed in the context of the discuss of who WE decided bomb, and why, with the first nuclear weapons. Why would you discuss what Hitler chose to bomb in that context? You really trying to induce Godwin's Law?

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #79)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:45 PM

83. Because the two are related.

if not for Germany & the promise they made to Japan, Japan would have never attacked.

Another little lesson for you. I have all day.

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Response to William769 (Reply #83)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:54 PM

99. Ha

Japan may or may not have attacked, their goals had little or nothing to do with their promise to Japan. And how any of that has to do with how we choose to fight a war is also missing.

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Response to William769 (Reply #28)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:11 PM

179. I was trying to think of British cities too...

but my failing memory was only recalling the V2 rockets attacks, which were more terror attacks than city-wide damaging attacks.

Thanks for adding those to the list.

Sid

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:09 PM

19. war is hell, Rape of Nanking: 1937-1938 300,000 Deaths

In December of 1937, the Japanese Imperial Army marched into China's capital city of Nanking and proceeded to murder 300,000 out of 600,000 civilians and soldiers in the city. The six weeks of carnage would become known as the Rape of Nanking and represented the single worst atrocity during the World War II era in either the European or Pacific theaters of war

The elimination of the Chinese POWs began after they were transported by trucks to remote locations on the outskirts of Nanking. As soon as they were assembled, the savagery began, with young Japanese soldiers encouraged by their superiors to inflict maximum pain and suffering upon individual POWs as a way of toughening themselves up for future battles, and also to eradicate any civilized notions of mercy.

Filmed footage and still photographs taken by the Japanese themselves document the brutality. Smiling soldiers can be seen conducting bayonet practice on live prisoners, decapitating them and displaying severed heads as souvenirs, and proudly standing among mutilated corpses. Some of the Chinese POWs were simply mowed down by machine-gun fire while others were tied-up, soaked with gasoline and burned alive

After the destruction of the POWs, the soldiers turned their attention to the women of Nanking and an outright animalistic hunt ensued. Old women over the age of 70 as well as little girls under the age of 8 were dragged off to be sexually abused. More than 20,000 females (with some estimates as high as 80,000) were gang-raped by Japanese soldiers, then stabbed to death with bayonets or shot so they could never bear witness.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/nanking.htm

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Response to Baclava (Reply #19)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:15 PM

27. Uh huh, and America's response was...

 

...you ain't seen nothing...

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #27)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:22 PM

44. What do you suppose started the US-Japan war?

Japan bombed Pearl Harbor in response to our sanctions against Japan—sanctions imposed to punish... drumroll... the Japanese occupation of Manchuria.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #27)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:47 PM

86. The economic sanctions that led to Pearl Harbor. nt

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:09 PM

20. i've scheduled it for tomorrow's 'two minutes guilt'

 

on the topic of 'things i'm guilty for, before i was born'

i'm no more responsible for that, than an undocumented immigrant appealing for a path to citizenship today

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Response to markiv (Reply #20)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:19 PM

37. I hold you personally responsible for the Battle of Gettysburg.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #37)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:20 PM

40. and i'm holding YOU responsible for any debauchery that may or may

 

not have occured under coligula

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Response to markiv (Reply #40)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:26 PM

49. I was young. I needed the money.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #49)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:33 PM

65. lol nt

 

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:11 PM

21. Oh, is it one of the DU Street Cred Development Days again?


Get over yourself. Every August 6 someone comes along with this bullshit. Stop playing armchair historian, especially since you evidently have no idea what the hell you're talking about. New ruling empire? Wake me when we live in a world where Pearl Harbor, Nanking, and Bataan never happened.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #21)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:18 PM

34. So I guess Iraqi...

 

...would be perfectly justified with dropping nukes in America right? I mean, you know, we invaded them with no cause, killed tens of thousands, destroyed their country, etc...

Your children, parents, siblings, deserve to die as a result right? I mean, Iraq just wanted to end the war.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:19 PM

38. Fail. Pathetic. nt

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #38)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:32 PM

62. Can't see your hypocrisy, can you.

 

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #62)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:40 PM

76. Hypocrisy?

 

Your OP is nothing but hypocrisy.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #76)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:07 PM

118. I'm rubber, you're glue

That's directed to everyone on this sub-thread.

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Response to tumtum (Reply #76)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:34 PM

284. Why are you attacking this guy?

You JUST TOLD ME that it's okay for civilians to be killed in ANY WAR.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:24 PM

48. Thanks to the Israelis

we don't have to worry about that.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:32 PM

215. Iraq

Actually had we done what we did in Japan in Iraq and Afghanistan, the two wars would be over and we would not have had 3000 Americans killed because of what the animals did on 9/11. It would have cost about 10 percent of the cost we ended up with and probably would not have lost a single American. Too bad nobody was for it and wanted a long war. Congress voted on going to war with Afghanistan and Iraq. UGH!!!! Two bombs would have been enough.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #215)


Response to ieoeja (Reply #267)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 09:18 PM

344. Iraq

Can I just say that you are brilliant. Wow! I am so impressed with your historical knowledge. I wish I had 10 percent of it.

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Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #344)


Response to yeoman6987 (Reply #215)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:00 AM

349. The "highjackers" were Arab and Saddam had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks.

Are you one of the mindset that wanted to, "turn the place into glass and let god sort them out"? Sure sounds like it from here.

Afghanistan tried to give Bin Laden to the US, they did not attack us either. Heroin production had been almost eradicated there before we attacked, now they are near top production again.

Why do you think that the military didn't do as you suggested? Because no one in the arms business here would make money off a quick 'war'. Why do you think it went on sooo long?

Geeze...

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #34)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:50 PM

230. Victors get to try the losers for war crimes.

That's why Himmler, Tojo, and Saddam went to the gallows. FTW - Yes, I think all of them were guilty of horrible crimes. But I get to think that because we won.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #230)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:11 PM

414. Himmler committed suicide when his disguise was discovered.

Himmler committed suicide when his disguise was discovered. He deserved to be hanged, very slowly.

Next in line in power after Hitler mistook his letter as treasonous, Goering committed suicide the night before he was to be hanged.

Besides the ones that were sentenced to death in Nuremberg and the other trials, a lot of high Nazis got away; how many ended up working for the USA is unknown at least to the general public.

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Response to ryan_cats (Reply #414)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:35 PM

419. OK. Thanks. Substitute some other high Nazi that was hanged. N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #419)

Fri Aug 9, 2013, 12:52 AM

475. Not enough unfortunately.

Not enough unfortunately.

Although I would have left them in Buchenwald since the Nazis didn't destroy it. While it is UN-Christian of me, I think they deserved to be part of the system they set up and since the Nazis described it (gassing) as a humane way of murdering people, after the Nazi thugs were worked to near death as slave labor like the prisoners had to and starved as well, at least those that were deemed capable of work; others went straight to the gas chamber, they then deserved to take the same walk to the gas chambers millions of other innocent people did when they were no longer capable of work.
Too many got away.

The Nazi's defense was that it was all Hitler. Hitler didn't design the death camps, the gas chambers and crematoria nor did he make it seem that the victims were merely going for a delousing. They were told to neatly stack their clothes and remember where they were so they could find them after they had been 'deloused'. While Hitler was pure evil, he had no problem finding willing participants in his murderous schemes. A lot of these thugs had higher degrees and some had double PhDs, even Goebbels had a PhD.

A lot of Nazi higher ups merely removed their uniforms, had fake a ID and dressed as working men and a lot got away.

At least the Israelis found Eichmann who said he would leap into his grave laughing with millions of Jew's deaths on his conscience. To paraphrase a famous saying, I regret that he had but one life to give for his country. Israel found him guilty and hung him and he still got off easy. At least he gets to see what it's like to be in a crematoria, forever.

Every time I see a ThysonKrupp truck (they make and fix elevators) it reminds me of who the firms were that went out to the site, were told what the Nazi's needed (gas chambers and crematoria) and then these engineers sat down and designed the machinery of death. They deserved death as well, there was no way they didn't know what they were asked to design and build.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #21)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:34 PM

66. Of all the various cruelties of Imperial Japan, its enslavement of Korean women

 

to serve as sex slaves for occupying Japanese troops is the thing that puts them beyond the pale (speaking for myself personally). There's just no way to excuse that behavior under some kind of all-encompassing 'war is hell' rationale. It doesn't just violate Western cultural norms, it violates humanity's cultural norms.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:11 PM

22. You can look at ghosts in the rear view mirror all you want.

What's done is done.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:17 PM

31. I only wish it could have been done sooner.

 

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Response to The Link (Reply #31)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:09 PM

120. Like, in 1861?

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:17 PM

32. A wide factual understanding of the history of strategic bombing and

the nature of the U-235 bomb dropped on Hiroshima would help prevent silly OPs like this one.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #32)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:51 PM

232. really?

 

just rationalize away murder? It's silly to say the atomic bomb didn't need to be dropped?

That's sick.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:17 PM

33. A successful 60+ year Godzilla franchise is all the justification I need

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Response to Orrex (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:27 PM

50. Although the Godzilla film with Matthew Broderick...

surely violates the Geneva Convention.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #50)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:28 PM

53. That film does not exist.

Damn you for suggesting otherwise.

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Response to Dr. Strange (Reply #50)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 06:13 PM

333. That was a crime. I ended up rooting for Godzilla, a comet, anything to kill those wretched actors!

Gosh, just the thought of that dog of a film makes me gag even now.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #33)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:40 PM

75. You must watch pacific rim

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #75)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:56 PM

103. Won't get to see it on the big screen, alas

Big fan of del Toro, though. Can't wait!

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Response to Orrex (Reply #103)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:57 PM

106. We did...for some odd reason it was a hit in Japan

Which means they did it right

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #75)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:04 AM

351. Good film? My grandsons are itching to see it, hopefully at the local drivein!

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Response to Mnemosyne (Reply #351)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 12:17 AM

355. That is perfect for a drive in

it is pretty much in the theme of the Godzilla movies

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #355)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:06 AM

358. Thanks nadin. They are 12 & 13, perfect for that age group then, but sounds very loud going by the

commercials.

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Response to Mnemosyne (Reply #358)

Wed Aug 7, 2013, 02:21 AM

359. It is a tad loud

Hubby is a fan of the genre, so perfect for teens and grown up fans of the genre.

I enjoyed it... it was a good easy movie after covering a fire.

If you know anything about the genre all the archetypes are done well. My personal fav were the two scientists.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #359)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 11:37 PM

472. I watch the genre with the two oldest grandsons. Their reactions and comments are hysterical.

We are currently waiting for 'The Walking Dead' recent season to DVD this month and just watched Ironman 3D, which was awesome!

I've gotten my 12 yo watching subtitled Asian action films!

Stay safe out there, Nadin!

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Response to Mnemosyne (Reply #472)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 11:40 PM

473. Get them the seven samurai by Kurosawa

A must watch.

Right now we are ok...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #473)

Thu Aug 8, 2013, 11:53 PM

474. We recently watched The Sorcerer and the White Snake, awesome film! I will hunt down Kurosawa's

film for them, had forgotten about it. I see now that a remake may be in the works, not sure it could be the same or better. How do you improve such a classic?

Good to hear you are ok for now.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:19 PM

36. You're right. War, especially war against civilians, is always immoral.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #36)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:32 PM

63. Splittin' Hairs

The OP does seem to be engaged in a bit of hair splitting here. War is immoral. War is what you do after you missed all your opportunities to do the right thing. The OP seems to be trying to split out one act or another and claim it has crossed some sort of threshold of immorality.

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Response to zipplewrath (Reply #63)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:36 PM

68. Splitting hairs????

 

Fighting against military personnel is one thing, be it wrong or right, dropping nukes on civilian islands is another. There is a time for war, WWII being a prime example. There is never a time for burning a few hundred thousand innocent civilians. Ever.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #68)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:54 PM

100. So what were all the innocent Chinese and other Asians the Japanese butchered, tortured to death, an

subjected to biological warfare? Chopped liver?

Your frothing-at-the-mouth support for fascists is very telling.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #100)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:01 PM

111. No....

 

...they were terrorists, and we one upped them. YOUR selective outrage is telling. You're a true American.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #111)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 02:27 PM

206. No idea what you're trying to

accomplish here but I'm happy to see it's not working in the slightest.

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #68)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:03 PM

255. In total war, there are no civilians. Everyone is a target. N/T

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #255)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:09 PM

264. OMG. What the fuck is "total war"? n/t

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #264)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:32 PM

283. World War Two was such a war.

In history there have been plenty of wars to annihilation. Genghis Khan did it a lot. In fact, the idea of a limited war in which each side fights like "gentlemen" is a fairly recent invention in human affairs. Until the last few centuries, victorious armies, upon taking an enemy city, were allowed to sack the city. Sack the city means the soldiers were allowed to plunder, rape, and kill as they pleased for a few days. That's what the Russians did to any German cities they took.

Nuking Japan was part of total war, and it brought about the end of the war.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #283)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:37 PM

287. You sure you're in the right place? War is war. I don't give shit how big or how nice.

Dead is dead. Innocence is innocence.

History has nothing to do with what's right or wrong. We're not neanderthals.

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Response to Dawgs (Reply #264)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 03:38 PM

288. "Total war" means...

 

...please just let me justify what we did so I can get back to American Idol.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #36)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:57 PM

158. And it's simply not possible to make war without civilian casualties.

This suggests a second, more general conclusion.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #36)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 04:10 PM

304. What war has never involved civilians ?

Seems to be a necessary ingredient.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:22 PM

43. Some truth ...

 

.... sans speculation on motive / morality:

1. It was a juggernaut, and the culmination of a huge effort ... which had legs of its own. Stopping it when it had come to fruition is itself an unlikely outcome.

2. At the time, we were losing near 10,000 US lives per month, overtures of the Japanese notwithstanding; and best estimates at the time were that via conventional means, it would have taken two more years to end the war. So the prospect of telling the families of some 240,000 dead children, that we had a war-ending super bomb we could have used two years prior, was unthinkable to all in the Truman Admin advising HST. So he gave the go to use it.

3. Truman was greatly angered that the second bomb was used without his direct orders. The military thought once they had the go-ahead, that their discretion alone was all that was needed to use the bombs where and when they wished. So Truman immediately created what we still have today: the button that only the President can push.

4. As awful as nukes are, they we not much worse, if as bad, as the incendiary bombing of Tokyo, which was truly devastating and utterly inhumane ... yet, did not result in Japanese surrender. So any with hindsight can speak to what the Japanese were saying at the time, and imagine whatever they wish. But from where the Truman Admin stood, what they saw was a Japan that would fight to the last man, woman and child, in a bloodbath that would have claimed 100s or 1000s of American lives.

So I side with Truman, and believe as awful as it was, the dropping of A bombs on Japan saved 100s of 1000s of American lives, and may have in the end, saved the lives of Japanese as well.

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Response to Koios (Reply #43)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:47 PM

88. And it was the only option?

 

Why not choose one of Japan's ininhabited islands, let them know what you were about to do as a demonstration and a final warning?

I can't believe you guys really think this was our only option. It's always the sane thing, people being led into committing atrocities because "they had no choice".

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Response to Phillyindy (Reply #88)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:07 PM

119. No; merely the best option ...

 

... because when you only have two of them, wasting one on mind games in hopes the Emperor would come around, is too risky a proposition ... which, too, was considered by the Truman Admin, and quickly dismissed. Here's why:

We'd invaded some outlying islands in the Japanese Archipelago, in bloody fighting to the last man. And we had every indication that the mother island would be even worse. The Japanese People had been fed all manner of fear propaganda, saying that if conquered, they'd be enslaved ... and it would be a fate worse then death. And it appeared, at the cost of 10,000 American lives per month, that indeed the Japanese People believed it and would fight to the death, never surrendering. Anyone can look back, and criticize. But looking forward, from where the Truman Admin was looking, was a far bleaker picture, than we see today.

And I believe wholeheartedly that what ended the war was fear on the part of the Emperor that he'd be vaporized. Nothing indicated to our officials, that he cared a bit about his People. It seemed only likely that he'd preserve his status, for as long as he had people to put between him and the American Military.

And despite MacArthur and Truman being bitter rivals, hating each other, Mac was a remarkable person to be put in charge of the Japanese Occupation, which had a benevolence that astonished the Japanese, proving the fear-mongering was entirely false. So warm relations were created almost overnight, which made the bombs seem barbaric ... in hindsight. Months before, we fear we were fighting a people, whose zealotry was unmitigated, and they'd fight to the last man, woman, child, infant, fetus, house pets ... in a bloodbath of historic proportion.

Fact. They did what they thought most moral, and I believe, within the context of when it was done, was indeed, a moral endeavor.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:23 PM

46. 'drop a nuke on one of Japan's many uninhabited islands as a warning'

 

that's something i do agree on, drop it as close to tokyo that it can be seen and not denyed, but far enough away to not harm

then drop leaflets all over that have a pic of it with the caption

'any thoughts on where this goes if you dont surrender?'

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Response to markiv (Reply #46)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:47 PM

89. They considered that

But...after Nagasaki we were out...clear out. It would take months...so US troops would have had to invade with a million + estimated allied casualties. It was not just American troops...we were mostly spent. In that plan we had Mexican and Brazilian divisions set to hit the beaches on D-Day. They, together with the American divisions, were expected to hit 80+ percent casualties by day two and absent from the order of battle by day three.

Fun fact, Brazil had troops in Italy, and the Southern Atlantic front was as critical as the battle of the North Atlantic...Mexico had a combat fighter squadron in the pacific, with a high rate of kills. It joined the allies relatively late.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #89)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:26 PM

134. Very true ... plus ...

 

... until they went off, we were uncertain if both, or either, would work. So wasting even one for demonstration purposes, was unthinkable.

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Response to Koios (Reply #134)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:28 PM

137. Very true

Hell, until Alamo Gordo they did not know if nature would round off.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:27 PM

52. What the heck prompted this thread anyway?

Why are we obsessing about something that happened 70 some years ago? Who is planning on dropping an atom bomb this week anyway? Do we not have enough issues in the present to concentrate on?

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #52)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:29 PM

56. Check your calendar

And check that guy's famously stopped watch.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #52)


Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:29 PM

57. The bombung of Hiroshima was all about sending a message to the world, we are the World's number one

super power. Do what we say or you will be next. We began pillaging countries years before the bombing but escalating US Imperialism to a massive degree since. It's 2013 and as of today US imperialism marches on without a hitch.

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Response to Phillyindy (Original post)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 12:30 PM

60. The Japanese were NOT talking about surrender.

They wanted an armistice. It would have left their militaristic government in power and the ability to rearm and try again in twenty years. They were ready to keep fighting to keep their gov't and not be occupied. Surrender is not something you try, it is something you do.

A warning blast? We had already burned dozens of Japanese cities, killing far more than the number killed in both A-bombs combined. At that point it was total war and had been for years.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #60)

Tue Aug 6, 2013, 01:51 PM

147. My father was in the Pacific during all that time and as I asked, he explained.

I didn't really grasp what he was saying, it all seemed like a movie, so far removed from my reality. After all, I was in my single digits and that was all I knew.

He finished with telling me how they finally made their way through China, with their road building equipment as the Japanese were forced to retreat.

He described having to bulldoze corpses piled 30 or 40 feet high and bury them in mass graves. It was not out of disrespect, but in that apocalyptic scene, the victims were reduced to nothing more than noisome flesh, the story of their lives and their humanity long gone.

None of that assauged my feelings of horror and guilt over the bombings, as we were regularly shown these on the dates that commemorated these events on PBS. Then one year, watching Bill Moyers with his guest that year, I was shocked out of the familiar self-flagellation ritual.

Because he was interviewing a Japanese general (admiral, whatever) that day. It was apparent Moyers was shocked by his response. Recent news stories of some of these old guys supporting the practice of rape to keep up troop morale, had to have come from this guy's generation that were in charge of things in Japan.

Moyers went into the familiar questions. Then he asked the man if he held the nuclear bombing against the American government, did he see it as a crime against humanity...

It was the elderly man's matter-of-fact answer that chilled me to the bone, and why I never forgot that program:

'If we had gotten the atomic bomb first, we surely would have used it on you.'


That threw Moyers and he had difficulty grasping it, or so I remember it. And me, having been told for years Japan was the victim in that case. But it was about their leaders at the time, not their women and children, and they didn't think the death of their people was too much to pay.

I couldn't imagine that kind of thinking process, but it was a race to destruction, who would get the atomic bomb first, just as history had said it was. WW2 amounted to the death of millions. We have the luxury of not being forced to live that reality, in those days. I think the jubiliation of the end of the war was not about victory as much as the joy of returning to peace.

It is tragic that from that desire for peace or fear of war, that we have built an establishment that feeds on war. But I am seeing the demise of that from my view, and we can aim our energies elsewhere.

Those of us with the luxury of sitting safely being behind keyboards in the world largely built by that generation, and making lofty moral statments about times they have not lived in, are indulging themselves with a flawed sense of reasoning.

These were realities most of us never had to face.