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Sun Jul 28, 2013, 06:28 PM

Colorblind Ideology is a Form of Racism

Interesting article and it's worth reading the whole thing. I chose four paragraphs that get at the crux of the argument. It shows the idea that we can do away with racism by ignoring it is false.

What is racial colorblindness?

Racial issues are often uncomfortable to discuss and rife with stress and controversy. Many ideas have been advanced to address this sore spot in the American psyche. Currently, the most pervasive approach is known as colorblindness. Colorblindness is the racial ideology that posits the best way to end discrimination is by treating individuals as equally as possible, without regard to race, culture, or ethnicity.
. . .

Racism? Strong words, yes, but let's look the issue straight in its partially unseeing eye. In a colorblind society, White people, who are unlikely to experience disadvantages due to race, can effectively ignore racism in American life, justify the current social order, and feel more comfortable with their relatively privileged standing in society (Fryberg, 2010). Most minorities, however, who regularly encounter difficulties due to race, experience colorblind ideologies quite differently. Colorblindness creates a society that denies their negative racial experiences, rejects their cultural heritage, and invalidates their unique perspectives.

Let's break it down into simple terms: Color-Blind = "People of color — we don't see you (at least not that bad ‘colored' part)." As a person of color, I like who I am, and I don't want any aspect of that to be unseen or invisible. The need for colorblindness implies there is something shameful about the way God made me and the culture I was born into that we shouldn't talk about. Thus, colorblindness has helped make race into a taboo topic that polite people cannot openly discuss. And if you can't talk about it, you can't understand it, much less fix the racial problems that plague our society. . . .

The alternative to colorblindness is multiculturalism, an ideology that acknowledges, highlights, and celebrates ethnoracial differences. It recognizes that each tradition has something valuable to offer. It is not afraid to see how others have suffered as a result of racial conflict or differences.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/colorblind/201112/colorblind-ideology-is-form-racism

151 replies, 14077 views

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Reply Colorblind Ideology is a Form of Racism (Original post)
BainsBane Jul 2013 OP
Socal31 Jul 2013 #1
BainsBane Jul 2013 #2
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #4
reusrename Jul 2013 #59
Deep13 Jul 2013 #3
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #5
Pelican Jul 2013 #55
Deep13 Jul 2013 #61
Pelican Jul 2013 #62
BainsBane Jul 2013 #147
Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #6
BainsBane Jul 2013 #10
Lancero Jul 2013 #7
mick063 Jul 2013 #8
PowerToThePeople Jul 2013 #9
LostOne4Ever Jul 2013 #11
Skip Intro Jul 2013 #12
BainsBane Jul 2013 #13
Skip Intro Jul 2013 #14
BainsBane Jul 2013 #16
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #34
Boudica the Lyoness Jul 2013 #17
intheflow Jul 2013 #23
LostOne4Ever Jul 2013 #54
lumberjack_jeff Jul 2013 #108
bettyellen Jul 2013 #146
lumberjack_jeff Jul 2013 #150
bettyellen Jul 2013 #151
gollygee Jul 2013 #67
Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #71
kwassa Jul 2013 #20
LostOne4Ever Jul 2013 #50
backscatter712 Jul 2013 #15
kwassa Jul 2013 #18
backscatter712 Jul 2013 #21
Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #24
backscatter712 Jul 2013 #25
kwassa Jul 2013 #141
Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #142
kwassa Jul 2013 #144
sweetloukillbot Jul 2013 #29
gollygee Jul 2013 #73
BainsBane Jul 2013 #22
struggle4progress Jul 2013 #19
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #36
Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #26
BainsBane Jul 2013 #27
Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #28
BainsBane Jul 2013 #30
Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #31
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #35
Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #41
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #42
Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #48
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #49
Brewinblue Jul 2013 #38
Cronus Protagonist Jul 2013 #45
Brewinblue Jul 2013 #57
Orrex Jul 2013 #68
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Orrex Jul 2013 #78
Number23 Jul 2013 #32
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #37
BainsBane Jul 2013 #43
LostOne4Ever Jul 2013 #56
JI7 Jul 2013 #60
Starry Messenger Jul 2013 #33
uppityperson Jul 2013 #39
LittleBlue Jul 2013 #40
Kurska Jul 2013 #44
BainsBane Jul 2013 #46
Kurska Jul 2013 #47
Puzzledtraveller Jul 2013 #72
lumberjack_jeff Jul 2013 #110
Pelican Jul 2013 #51
BainsBane Jul 2013 #52
Pelican Jul 2013 #53
dkf Jul 2013 #58
Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #66
gollygee Jul 2013 #74
DirkGently Jul 2013 #88
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JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #63
BainsBane Jul 2013 #64
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Orrex Jul 2013 #82
REP Jul 2013 #86
gollygee Jul 2013 #101
JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #107
gollygee Jul 2013 #109
Orrex Jul 2013 #112
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #115
JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #117
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #121
JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #122
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #123
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #125
uppityperson Jul 2013 #137
JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #140
gollygee Jul 2013 #65
Donald Ian Rankin Jul 2013 #75
BainsBane Jul 2013 #76
Donald Ian Rankin Jul 2013 #81
kwassa Jul 2013 #143
DirkGently Jul 2013 #77
Solly Mack Jul 2013 #80
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #83
BainsBane Jul 2013 #87
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #95
BainsBane Jul 2013 #97
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #102
BainsBane Jul 2013 #103
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #105
BainsBane Jul 2013 #111
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #119
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #106
Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #91
BainsBane Jul 2013 #93
JustAnotherGen Jul 2013 #114
gollygee Jul 2013 #99
Boudica the Lyoness Jul 2013 #84
Humanist_Activist Jul 2013 #90
BainsBane Jul 2013 #92
gollygee Jul 2013 #94
BainsBane Jul 2013 #96
gollygee Jul 2013 #98
BainsBane Jul 2013 #100
Boudica the Lyoness Jul 2013 #124
Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #85
BainsBane Jul 2013 #89
LiberalAndProud Jul 2013 #104
shawn703 Jul 2013 #113
kwassa Jul 2013 #145
napkinz Jul 2013 #116
gollygee Jul 2013 #120
BainsBane Jul 2013 #136
MineralMan Jul 2013 #118
BainsBane Jul 2013 #128
MineralMan Jul 2013 #130
Nye Bevan Jul 2013 #134
BainsBane Jul 2013 #139
MineralMan Jul 2013 #149
mattclearing Jul 2013 #126
gollygee Jul 2013 #127
Bjorn Against Jul 2013 #129
gollygee Jul 2013 #131
Bjorn Against Jul 2013 #132
BainsBane Jul 2013 #135
Bjorn Against Jul 2013 #138
Number23 Jul 2013 #148
badtoworse Jul 2013 #133

Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 06:54 PM

1. My children will be taught to be color-blind.

Calling that "racism" waters down the term, and is probably only for shock value to get views on the article.

Being "color blind" does not mean that you cannot acknowledge someone's inherent advantages or disadvantages. It does not mean you cannot celebrate their culture, and become a well rounded citizen by educating yourself on as many cultural backgrounds as possible.

What it does mean is that you don't ever succumb to prejudice based on superficial characteristics, such as skin color. It means that skin color X should never be viewed as positive or negative over color Y. It means you don't make assumptions about someone's advantages or disadvantages based on skin color alone. Leave stereotyping to the comedians and teabaggers.

It isn't a perfect world, so protections are needed to ensure that if civil rights are being violated, the violators get a public smack down and are made an example of.

I admire the author for broaching the subject, which is definitely a taboo in this society. More intelligent discussion like this is the only way we will ever move forward.

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Response to Socal31 (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 07:01 PM

2. I disagree

Colorblindness is a pretense. It doesn't exist. Race is a very real phenomenon in America and throughout the world. Pretending it isn't makes it impossible to combat racism.

There is a difference between not harboring negative perceptions of a group of people because of their race and pretending that race doesn't exist. Teaching children to judge people on their character and behavior is of course admirable. That, however, is not blindness.

I've also heard African Americans say they find the concept that white people don't "see" their race offensive. It is part of who they are. Racial difference can be celebrated, which is part of what multiculturalism seeks to do.

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Response to Socal31 (Reply #1)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:25 PM

4. Teaching them not to be racist isn't the same thing as teaching them to be color-blind.

I think you probably have the right idea, and that your problem is more one of phrasing.

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Response to Socal31 (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:32 AM

59. Well, people's advantages or disadvantages due to race are not assumptions.

 

They are a reality. Failure to see that or to acknowledge that reality is the wellspring of a lot of racist beliefs according to a lot of folks. It allows one an opportunity to cling to all their racist notions under the cover of pretending that the playing field is level when it actually isn't.

Tim Wise used to write about this particular quirk a lot.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:20 PM

3. It serves to reinforce the status quo. nt

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #3)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:26 PM

5. Exactly. That is the entire problem with "color-blindness" in a nutshell.

If we don't acknowledge what's wrong with the world, how will we ever be able to do anything about it?

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:59 AM

55. The author is reinforcing the status quo...

 

by claiming people are different because of their race and you should treat them a certain way based on their melanin count.

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Response to Pelican (Reply #55)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:35 AM

61. Wrong. The author is claiming that people already do that...

...and to ignore the sociological implications of that reinforces already existing social constructs.

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Response to Deep13 (Reply #61)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:42 AM

62. So...

 

... by treating someone as a human being, as a whole summary of their personality, skills and abilities as opposed to modifying my behavior based on their particular skin color... That is racist?

That's bullshit...

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Response to Pelican (Reply #62)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 10:19 PM

147. No, but pretending one isn't influenced by racism

when racism is taught in subtle ways from an early age indicates 1) dishonesty, and 2) a determination to perpetuate racial injustice. That is manifested in actions like shooting a black teenager because someone is frightened by black males and defending those who kill young African American men because one refuses to confront the racial ideas that shapes one's own assumptions. Pretending racism doesn't exist is to support a status quo based on inequality. There is a reason such ideas are trumpeted by white supremacists.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:28 PM

6. My kids have friends of several races and treat them all the same.

Should I be concerned that my kids are somehow growing up racist? Would it be better if I told my kids to treat people differently, depending upon their race?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #6)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:43 PM

10. no, that isn't the point at all

But to pretend racism doesn't exist leaves no way to combat the problem.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:31 PM

7. The diffrience...

Color-Blind - Focus on the similarities between the races

Multiculturalism - Focus on the diffriences between the races

This is both idealogies broken down into their most basic forms.

And now, what is racism?

Racism - Considering someone below you, or refusing to accept them, because they are different from you in some form

Broken down to it's basic form.

Realistically, both idealogies will still leave room for racism to fester. However, promoting how we are different over how we are similar will give a direct rise to racism as it is based on differences, not similarities.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:33 PM

8. You look at a person and think he/she is a different color than I am.

 



It is the thought after which is the revealing one.

There is no such thing as color blind. There is such a thing as compassion and respect.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:34 PM

9. denial is not a river in Egypt

Many (Most) do not want to accept that their position in the economic food chain is a direct result of wrongs done to others.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:53 PM

11. Colorblindness is a philosophy grounded in naive optimism for an America that does not exist

It (Color-blindness) is as fair to minorities as a healthy person having a foot race against a person with a broken leg. Color blindness only works if we were all working from a starting point of equality which the centuries of slavery and racism has prevented.

People who advocate color blindness are ignoring the systematic and pervasive amount of bigotry in our society that gives minorities far more hurdles to overcome. They are ignoring the poverty that racism has forced on many minorities. It is doctrine ground in ignoring the realities facing our country and pretending that the world is a perfect place where all people are treated fairly and justly.

It perfectly epitomizes the delusion and willful ignorance of the libertarian right

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:56 PM

12. Isn't racism treating people differently due to their skin color?

Isn't being colorblind, then, the solution to racism?

I think so.



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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 08:58 PM

13. Read the article

Think about what it says.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #13)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 09:05 PM

14. Did. Don't buy it. Hell, even MLK dreamed of a colorblind age...

...you know, people being judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin.

Yeah. Article is wrong.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:03 PM

16. So does that mean people need to become like you to be accepted?

That they can't retain their cultural distinctiveness and must become like the dominant white society?

I assert you don't understand MLK at all. It's one thing not to judge a person according to race and another to pretend race doesn't matter. If fact, the latter is the current talking point of White Supremacists.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:22 AM

34. Exactly. When people say they want "a color-blind society" they usually mean *on their terms*

i.e. everyone has to be exactly like them, the "respectable" white folks...

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:14 PM

17. You are

SO RIGHT!

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #14)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:39 PM

23. MLK dreamed of it, he didn't say it was a reality.

To practice colorblindness in a time when color still matters tremendously is to minimize the reality of the non-colorblind society in which we, as a country, still reside.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:57 AM

54. He dreamed of a FUTURE where people would be judged on the content of their character

But he knew that we were far far away from reaching that point. If you actually review kings works beyond one speech you would see that he recognized that one's skin color does matter in our current reality.

Was King opposed to explicitly race-conscious and color-aware laws and policies? In a 1965 interview, he was asked whether a proposal for a multi-billion dollar program providing preferential treatment for Blacks or any other minority group was fair. King's answer merits full quotation: I do indeed. Can any fair-minded citizen deny that the Negro has been deprived? Few people reflect that for two centuries the Negro was enslaved, and robbed of any wages--potential accrued wealth which would have been the legacy of his descendants. All of America's wealth today could not adequately compensate its Negroes for his centuries of exploitation and humiliation. . . . Accordingly, King's support for affirmative action and the color-awareness of his views cannot be doubted. His response to the question of the fairness of affirmative action could not be more direct or explicit--King believed that affirmative action was appropriate given the centuries of slavery and the massive theft suffered by African Americans at the hands of those who oppressed them.


he exploitation of King's name, the distortion of his teachings for political gain, is an ugly development. The term "affirmative action" did not come into currency until after King's death "but it was King himself, as chair of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, who initiated the first successful national affirmative action campaign: "Operation Breadbasket."
In Atlanta, Philadelphia, Chicago and other cities, King staffers gathered data on the hiring patterns of corporations doing business in black communities, and called on companies to rectify disparities. "At present, SCLC has Operation Breadbasket functioning in some 12 cities, and the results have been remarkable," King wrote (quoted in Testament of Hope, James Washington, ed.), boasting of "800 new and upgraded jobs several covenants with major industries."
King was well aware of the arguments used against affirmative action policies. As far back as 1964, he was writing in Why We Can't Wait: "Whenever the issue of compensatory treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree; but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic."


King supported affirmative action";type programs because he never confused the dream with American reality. As he put it, "A society that has done something special against the Negro for hundreds of years must now do something special for the Negro" to compete on a just and equal basis (quoted in Let the Trumpet Sound, by Stephen Oates)


Saying that MLK was colorblind or advocated color blind policies is a refuted rightwing talking point, along the lines of them trying to argue that he was a republican.

Truth be told, MLK was hated and demonized by the right as a socialist. If he were alive today, he would still be just as hated by the right and would be demonized in the same way that they demonize his successor Jesse Jackson today.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #54)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:01 PM

108. How can we aspire to something that we're asked to consider racist today?

I don't think we're ready for colorblind *policies* yet, but I wouldn't agree that the desire for a colorblind society is racist.

I think this OP is counterproductive.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #108)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:50 PM

146. Everyone would love a colorblind society- but selfish, foolish libertarian types think

that if THEY act like it is that way, then society automatically becomes that way- Without any thing actually changing, anybody acknowledging or working on problems, they cease to exists. It's an incredibly childish take on things, and I suspect many who espouse it actually are thinking "Not my problem, I don't want to hear it".

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #146)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 11:40 AM

150. If they think that if their color-blind actions will create reality... how is that racist?

Misguided and unlikely to succeed? Sure. There is too much structural racism in this country to simply pretend it doesn't exist. The fact that I disagree with the libertarians you describe about tactics doesn't make them racists.

If the desired outcome of "libertarian types" actions is actual equality then the fundamental point of the OP isn't valid.

Assuming ill intent is human nature but it isn't productive.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #150)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 12:16 PM

151. Because they are basically pretending that their inaction helps, and so, hindering progress.

I believe they say that equality is their desired outcome, but in reality they do not give a shit about what doesn't harm them. If they did, they would do better than this third grade wishful thinking.
But I understand there's other layers in this thinking about wishing to obliterate racial differences that are troublesome when it's your culture that is being pushed aside.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:25 PM

67. Misreading the Dream: Color-Blindness and the Distortion of Martin Luther King Jr.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:01 PM

71. I agree, and suggesting that those who see people through a color blind lens

are somehow not cognizant of racism is disingenuous and absurd.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #12)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:25 PM

20. but nobody is blind, are they?

We all see, and we all see color, except for those of us who are actually blind.

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Response to Skip Intro (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:20 AM

50. Racism

Racism Is believing that one race is superior to another:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism

It is not treating people differently due to their skin color.

One can recognize that one race is disadvantaged due to institutionalized racism and take steps to alleviate that to provide an even playing field for minorities. The purpose behind such an endevour is to make the races equal, but it is an example of treating one race differently. Is that racism?

Of course not. It is an example of the opposite of racism. It is a form of anti-racism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-racism

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 09:32 PM

15. Stephen Colbert is a genius at exposing this.

On his show, he claims to be race-blind, and only knows he's white because his friends tell him he's white.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:23 PM

18. To me, color-blindness means "I don't see you".

Color-blind has a very negative connotation to me, as it is simply of form of blindness, which is the original meaning of the word, literally not being able to see color. If one was literally not able to see color, this in and of itself would do nothing to rid the world of racism. To do that, one must see, and see everything. The biggest problem is ending racism is that people don't see it.

Claiming color-blindness is an easy out. It does not require that one actually engages with someone of another race in any meaningful way.



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Response to kwassa (Reply #18)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:28 PM

21. Or to be more specific...

"I don't see the contributions your culture made to society. I don't see Martin Luther King Jr. I don't see Sojourner Truth. I don't see jazz music. I don't see your poetry, or your inventions, or the fruits of your work."

Race-blindness is throwing out a very big baby with the bathwater.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #21)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:58 PM

24. Do I have to start caring about people's religion, too?

If I don't care, or don't know, if someone is Jewish, for example ("religion-blind"?) is that like saying I don't see the contributions that Albert Einstein and Sigmund Freud made to society?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #24)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:01 AM

25. Could you have Fiddler on the Roof without Judaism? n/t

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #24)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:16 PM

141. False analogy. Race is visible, religion usually is not.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #141)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:19 PM

142. Yarmulkes? Turbans?

Is it acceptable to be "religious-headgear-blind"?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #142)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:36 PM

144. That will only get you Orthodox Jews and Sikhs.

A very small percentage of the religious.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #21)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:20 AM

29. Colorblindness is the Conservative reaction to race

It is the ideology behind dismantling ethnic studies programs. It is what fuels the rage when Obama mentions race in a speech. It's parents getting upset when their kids' class celebrates Kwanzaa. There may be no difference physically between races but there damn well are major differences culturally - and that is what the author is concerned about - cultural diversity is being ignored in favor of this idea that we're all alike.

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Response to sweetloukillbot (Reply #29)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:05 PM

73. Not just that we're all alike

but that "regular" is like white people and anything else isn't "mainstream American culture."

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Response to kwassa (Reply #18)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:32 PM

22. very well said

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Jul 28, 2013, 11:24 PM

19. (1) All popular notions of race are vacuous from a scientific PoV; (2) these notions have arisen

in various contexts, usually because somebody wanted to exploit somebody else and needed some justification, such as

they are ignorant and primitive heathen savages, so we are bringing them the blessings of civilization by taking their land

or

they are inferior and fit only to be slaves, so it is our duty to bring them the blessings of civilization by enslaving them;

(3) cultural notions almost always reflect the practices and mythologies of an earlier time, and these inevitably reproduce themselves if we adopt them without critical reflection about the histories that created them, including self-justifications people invented for their behavior in their times

The task for progressives is to abolish all the mythologies involved in racial thinking without forgetting the actual histories associated with such thinking: there is no such thing as race, but there certainly is such a thing as racism, and the major use of racist thinking has been to justify certain forms of exploitation and oppression, the effects of which have not vanished -- and will not quickly vanish unless we have taken appropriate material steps to eliminate those effects, something that requires much more than simple attitude changes

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #19)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:27 AM

36. Best post of the thread!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:07 AM

26. There is only one race

THE HUMAN RACE.





Trashing thread.

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Response to Cronus Protagonist (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:08 AM

27. That's unfortunate

You keep yourself from considering important points of view.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #27)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 12:20 AM

28. You assume much, inaccurately too

And the facts cannot be changed. The human race is our race. We are all earthlings, children of the star Sol.

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Response to Cronus Protagonist (Reply #28)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:25 AM

30. That doesn't change the fact that race effects people's lives

refusing to understand that is to perpetuate it.

I know white people are uncomfortable talking about race. I've learned that from my experience teaching about slavery. Learning isn't always comfortable. In fact, it often isn't. People of color don't pretend race doesn't exist. They don't have the luxury of denying the experiences that shape their lives. That kind of denial is left to those uninterested in doing anything about the prejudice faced by others. Refusing to confront a problem makes it impossible to do anything about it, which is why the extreme right is on the forefront of denying the role of race and racism.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #30)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:38 AM

31. Sorry, I'm not an American

I don't have a dog in that hunt. I didn't even hear about the concept of "races" of people until I came here. You guys are fucked up. I think you peeps need to start calling things by their proper names. It's plain old bigotry. The excuses ("reasons" for their bigotry) used by bigots are not relevant at all. Whether the excuse is "race", or sexuality, or beauty, or fatness, or what-fucking-ever, it's all bigotry. Plain as the nose on your face.

Bigotry is about ignorance and power, not "race", or "fat", or "gay" or anything else that bigots claim it is about.

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Response to Cronus Protagonist (Reply #31)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:26 AM

35. But whatever you call it - "bigotry" or anything else - ignoring it won't make it go away.

And "color-blindness" basically amounts to "pretending racism/bigotry doesn't exist."

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #35)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:44 AM

41. Do you think I don't see the argument?

Can't you see I'm trying to help sane, bigot-free people frame it correctly, call it by its proper name, and thereby gain access to how to deal with it?

One can address the problem, which is bigotry and powerlessness; "guilt" if you're a psych person, OR one can use the bigots' framing, indulge them and discuss their hallucinated "issues", thereby lending these weight. Any talk of "race", "fat", "f4g", or "color", etc. is the latter.

You might say I agree with you, just opening a deeper cut and also refusing to speak inside the framing of a bigot to discuss anything they promulgate. Know your enemy and you can defeat them.

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Response to Cronus Protagonist (Reply #41)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:47 AM

42. But how can you deal with racism if you refuse to discuss "race" at all?

I guess that's where I don't follow you...

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #42)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:02 AM

48. It is NOT "racism", it IS bigotry

"racism" is a complete fabrication BY bigots in order to justify their bigotry. Their Jungian projections are simply neuroses, as in the projection that there are different "races" of human beings. There is no more than ONE human race in reality, and therefore one cannot discuss "racism" without buying into their concept and therefore their neuroses.

However, if we talk about their bigotry, we are firmly grounded because that is something that factually exists. And we can then address it and hopefully minimize it through education, learned experience and maybe a slap in the face or two. (physical feedback/conditioning.. lol)

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Response to Cronus Protagonist (Reply #48)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:06 AM

49. Seems to me "bigotry" is the general category and "racism" is a specific manifestation.

But otherwise I agree - bigotry is something that can be learned or unlearned.

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Response to Cronus Protagonist (Reply #28)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:34 AM

38. Correctamundo! Racism exists, but separate races among humans do not.

We are all one species, one race, sharing the same DNA. The division of humans into separate "races" based on skin pigmentation, religion, or culture, however serves as a useful illusion to authoritarian personality types. Focusing their followers on this creation of artificially distinct races, allows authoritarian leader types to institute division and conflict in society -- essentially an "us against them" mentality. As their leaders lie and steal to amass all the power and wealth for themselves, the poor, undereducated authoritarian follower types come to realize that they have been cheated out of their right to the good life. Blaming the real culprits, their chosen leaders, creates great cognitive dissonance and discomfort. Thus, they focus all their fear, anger and hate on even more oppressed members of "other races."

Authoritarian leaders feed off fear and division. They very intentionally plant the notion that their "race" is the superior one, and that all the ills of society are caused by "those people," be it blacks, jews, gypsies, homosexuals, immigrants, or whomever else they may choose to de-humanize for their pleasure. The right wing movement throughout history has been based on this model. Conservative political ideology exists solely to promote and legitimize racism, and thus justify authoritarian rule.

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Response to Brewinblue (Reply #38)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:54 AM

45. Thanks!

You said it much better than I did. I presume you were drunk when you posted that because it is a rather powerful edification from which all might benefit.

(Before everyone piles on to shove verbal sticks up my ass, please read Brewinblue's sig line... )

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Response to Cronus Protagonist (Reply #45)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:10 AM

57. Thanks to you as well Cronus.

I knew in my heart that the OP was B.S., but couldn't put my finger on quite the angle from which to attack it. Your post gave me the inspiration needed.

As for being drunk, no, not anymore I'm afraid. Had to quit, drinking started to cause me to have to do a little too much explaining.

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Response to Cronus Protagonist (Reply #26)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:36 PM

68. You posted an awful lot of angry replies after trashing the thread.

Hmm...

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Response to Orrex (Reply #68)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:44 PM

69. Really?

Why do you think they were angry? Project much?

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Response to Cronus Protagonist (Reply #69)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:18 PM

78. Nope. Why do you ask?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:12 AM

32. Rec. You would have done better to post this in one of the minority forums here

And I'm sure you can see why after reading some of the responses to your OP.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #32)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:32 AM

37. I don't know... I think there have been some quite good responses on this thread.

Along with a few overly defensive (or missing-the-point) ones, perhaps, but that just shows why the subject needs discussing.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #32)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:53 AM

43. I'll cross post it tomorrow nt

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Response to Number23 (Reply #32)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:07 AM

56. Honestly

I am shocked that so many people on a liberal website refuse to understand.

Some of these replies remind me of debates I have had with one right wing conservative friend of mine

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #56)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:01 AM

60. posting on a liberal site doesn't make one a liberal

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:15 AM

33. k&r

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:38 AM

39. I see it more as being non-judgmental of each of our differences.

You have different color skin than me? Meh. You have different color hair? Meh. We are each different and need to treat each other with the same caring and respect, no matter what the differences.

Not ot say there is no racism or othe isms as there are and they affect too many and we need to speak out and work towards changing that. But to not care about trying to make others one way or accept them because they are like you because none of us are the same. I guess be humane to everyone.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:42 AM

40. Read the article, didn't find it persuasive

Sorry, it seems like an article with a shock headline designed to get hits.

The author could make an argument for neglect, but racism itself? Nah

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:53 AM

44. What I think the author isn't getting.

There is a huge difference between "I think race isn't important in our society" and "I think race shouldn't be important in our society, so I want to lead by example by trying to avoid letting race influence my personal choices"

The first is denying oppression, which is racist. The second is what I would consider being "colorblind".

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Response to Kurska (Reply #44)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:55 AM

46. I think you have it backwards

People would like to believe race isn't important, but that doesn't mean that's the case. We might all dream of a world where race doesn't matter, but that isn't the world we live in. Pretending we do only allows racism to fester because it doesn't interrogate or combat the problem.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #46)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:01 AM

47. I disagree, you can believe race is a factor while not personally allowing it to be a factor for you

If you don't believe that is possible, I don't see how you can possibly conceive of us becoming a society where race isn't a factor. If a single person not letting race influence their decision making is actually racist, then how is a truly equal society supposed to happen? You can't really expect all people to do it simultaneously or even for every person who tries to do it do it perfectly.

Saying we live in a flawed world is not an argument for continuing the very behavior that made it flawed in the first place.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #47)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:05 PM

72. You made the point I was just thinking of

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Response to Kurska (Reply #44)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:09 PM

110. Agree. n/t

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:36 AM

51. Racist to treat people equally...

 

This person is desperate to take offense at something.

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Response to Pelican (Reply #51)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:36 AM

52. You are deliberately looking to misunderstand

Try reading the article.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #52)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:42 AM

53. Another person trying to shill that race is so important...

 

... and that not treating people a certain way based on their genetic heritage is wrong.

That..

is..

stupid..

Not to mention the fact that society will never move past race as long as they have dead weight like the author clinging desperately to it.

You want to self-identify based on your melanin count? Great. Don't expect the rest of the world to pander to it. Human is human.



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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:24 AM

58. If I had to treat everyone differently based on their race I would be spinning....

 

I can't begin to count the different number of races in my office...frankly I don't know everyone's race.

My sister just found out someone she thought was Filipino was part black. Part Mexican, part Filipino, part Indonesian, who can tell? Everyone tells my sister that her son looks like his father more than her, because he looks white, not Asian. At some point, we won't know the difference. Then we get down to Chinese or Japanese or Korean and those races are all mixing.

Yes I live in Hawaii, where the "minorities" are the "majority". Who is privileged? People who go to Punahou, like Barack Obama are. That speaks more than race...did you go to private school or public school?

And the further down you get in generation the more likely the kids are to be mixed race. There are so many supposedly "interracial" marriages, I can't begin to count. It seems more rare to marry within your race nowadays.

Focusing on a person's race instead of the individual is messed up.

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Response to dkf (Reply #58)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:22 PM

66. That's the problem with this OP. What if you don't know someone's race?

Apparently it is now racist just to treat them the same as everybody else. It seems that to avoid being racist, you have to ask them what their race is and make some celebratory and/or congratulatory remarks about the achievements of whatever that race is.

Patronizing as hell if you ask me.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #66)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:07 PM

74. Well that would be patronizing as hell, so good thing no one actually said that. n/t

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #66)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:05 PM

88. Yeah. That's not really what the OP is saying.


I don't think the OP is calling for different treatment based on race or ethnicity. I think it's calling for awareness and acknowledgement that people whose identity puts them in some group or another experience culture differently, and may have a different point of view, different experiences, or a different set of needs in some circumstances.

Color "blindness" proposes that it's possible to be blissfully unaware of anyone's status as occupying one culturally identifiable group or another, and thus to ensure that everything is "equal."

That's actually a lie. Reality simply does not work that way.

While it can be argued that cultural identity shouldn't be important in the way people are treated, it isn't possible to make it disappear, and even if it were possible to never notice it, which is not, that would not necessarily be helpful. The person still has had experiences or points of view shaped by their status, whether or not you know it.

The reason the colorblind argument is sometimes used by rightwingers and racists is that they would like to argue that outlawing the most overt forms of discrimination is enough. Everything is "fine" now, because you can't enslave someone or ban someone else from your restaurant.

But of course it isn't fine. Somehow the promotion or the apartment goes to certain people but not others. Someone's opinion is given less credence. Someone is a "suspect." All for no clearly stated discriminatory reason.

So unstated, or unconscious, or institutionalized different treatment remains. Convenient, if your group is the privileged one that just happens to get the benefit of the doubt all of the time. The "colorblind" world keeps handing out biased treatment somehow, but if we all refuse to acknowledge why, somehow it will get better on its own.


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Response to dkf (Reply #58)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:52 PM

70. I agree

I know racism exists but thats not the lens I want to see people through.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 09:50 AM

63. BainsBane

Only responding to you on this. It comes down to LYING LIARS.

Folks who play the "I'm color blind I don't see color we are all EXACTLY the SAME" don't have to acknowledge diversity because they tend to be from the DOMINANT culture. You don't HAVE to give an inch to how others experience in YOUR DOMINANT culture have experienced it because after all - you are King or Queen shit in America.

Everyone is the same? Really? Tee hee. Try telling that to a white woman (my mom) who had to learn how to do her bi-racial daughter's hair.

Really? We are all EXACTLY the same? So not true. There are Dumb Blond Stereotypes and then the Mammyy Stereotype and the first things that pop to mind in MOST minds are a very distinctive look for those two 'stereotypes'. And the way those two women look are drastically different. And anyone who tells you different is a bold faced liar who has deep discomfort with not only the color of OTHER people's skin - but most likely their own too and it's relevance in American Society.

Off the site - off of DU - next time someone tells you this 'color blind' nonsense - ask them what they will do if they are raped. Seriously. Will they play their "I'm color blind" absolute fucking insane bullshit nonsense or will they 'description up'.

You have to go the extreme with these 'types' because it's all they understand. And trust me - if an Asian robs, rapes, etc. etc. me that's the first effin' thing that is going into that description - Asian Male.

Here's how it goes for the 'color blind':
Not - well - uh - it was sort of well - er um - uh a guy - but I'm 'color blind' so I can't give you more than that!


Color Blinders are effing liars. And the saddest part - They are lying to THEMSELVES. They don't want to have ANY discussions on race or ethnicity because they have LIED to themselves about what they are at their very core and how they benefitted from it in America. They are all around liars and so my friend -

Disregard them. They can't be trusted - because they lie about the most basic realities. If they lie they'll cheat. If they'll cheat they'll steal. If they'll steal they will murder you in your sleep. Wise words my father gave to me about men and people in general.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #63)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:14 PM

64. I think it's a particularly pernicious lie

Last edited Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:29 PM - Edit history (1)

because it means they refuse to examine stereotypes and messages we are taught from the culture around us. What it really means is "don't make me think or talk about race because it makes me uncomfortable. I don't want to challenge my own privilege." That's how I see it.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #64)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:19 PM

79. I just answered a dumb ass poll about this

And it totally shows the OP's ass.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #79)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:41 PM

82. Heh heh. You wrote "ass poll"

Sorry to jump in, but I wanted to comment on your excellent point about actual, tangible differences between race-linked characteristics.

There is a not-small contingent of (almost exclusively white) people who pretend that all distinctions based on such characteristics are purely artificial or imaginary, often summed up by the simplistic mantra "there's only one race."

If "race" were simply a matter of reproductive compatibility, perhaps that mantra would be useful. Of course, the term actually describes a broad spectrum of biologicial, cultural, historical and genealogical distinctions (among others) that are ill-served by glossing them over or insisting that they don't exist.

Pretending that all differences are insignificant, or playing games about which term should be used (racism vs bigotry vs prejudice), at the expense of actual discussion of the real issue, seems little more than a foolish distraction.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #82)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:05 PM

86. Perhaps I am naïve

But while there are observable physical differences between different racial/ethnic groups, those are really insignificant compared to the observable characteristics all racial/ethnic groups share. The biggest difference, as Shaw said about social class, "the difference between a lady and a flower girl is how she is treated." The same can be said about dominant and oppressed races/ethnicities. It is incumbent upon "ladies" to be aware that "flower girls" are being treated poorly, and their (the "ladies") part in that - and to listen, and insist that all be treated with dignity, fairness, etc.

TL;DR: the most important difference between race/ethnicity is some are treated far worse than others.

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Response to REP (Reply #86)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:18 PM

101. That last line explains the issue

It's about people's experiences and lives, how they live in the world and how people treat them. People aren't colorblind, our society is not colorblind, and people use the "colorblind" claim as an excuse to not see the discrimination that absolutely exists. It doesn't matter that race is more a social construct than a biological reality. People assume black teenagers walking down the street are casing the neighborhood rather than walking home. People assume a black man getting something out of his car in his driveway is breaking into the car. And people get shot due to those racial assumptions.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #82)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:58 PM

107. Take that tangible a step further

My parents were married til death do us part - more than 40 years.

They fell in love at a time when it could have resulted in their death. If you ask my mom - she would say - your father was a man . . . Who happened to be black.

Now there are Color Blindesrs who would say: we'll that's horrible of her.

Because nine times out of ten - those CBers have never crossed race lines in love. Me - I'm married to a man - who happens to be white. And he can be very cave mannish and will tell you he asked me out because he liked the way I look - to include the tone of my skin.

Shame on anyone who shames him for saying he noticed it - and liked it. It's like shaming a man for noticing red hair and asking a woman out because he likes the color of her hair. It's just stupid.

To my mother's and husband's credit - they acknowledge, bless and move on.

But in both cases - they are acutely aware of the "politics" of black women and our hair. And the challenges we face as a result of something as simple as hair.

The thread/poll I referenced nodded to having a minority employee come into one's work environment. For those that said - I wouldn't treat people different - I've got news for you. If its a black woman with recently permed hair that has been blown out - and it's a misty day and the group decides to walk two blocks down the street and she doesn't have an umbrella don't be surprised if she defers. There is a very expensive reason she isn't going and it has nothing to do with the cost of her lunch.

And it's flat out lazy to not acknowledge and honor that not to mention "weak" if that makes one uncomfortable.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #107)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:03 PM

109. That's a good point

In a "colorblind" world, she has to just say she isn't hungry or otherwise decline. In a world where we really honor and try to understand each other, including our differences, she would be able to say, "it'll mess up my hair" and people would be able to take that into consideration and allow that to influence the lunch plans.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #107)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:15 PM

112. Another terrific point

I confess that I was almost wholly unaware of the "hair" issue, and how it is emblematic of so much else, until relatively recently, but once my eyes were opened to it, I was unable to not see it.

When an individual enjoys the luxury (the privilege) of living in a society constructed largely for the convenience and comfort of members of that individual's group, it is easy to overlook--deliberately or otherwise--the realities that other people face in living in that constructed society.

"Colorblindness" strikes me as a means to trivialize those realities, and it incidentally provides a convenient way to blame people for failing to achieve success in that society.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #107)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:20 PM

115. OK, call me niave, but what is it about the perms that's specific to black women?

I know about perms for women in general, and how those that get it complain about the weather fizzing their hair when the humidity is too high.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #115)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:25 PM

117. It's the opposite

Its chemical straightening and even with that - some AA woman have coarse fragile hair that cannot be washed and blown out everyday. The process itself can cause chemical burns. And if you have just had it done - that $80 on up for your a couple times a month appointment can be destroyed.

Ever wonder why black little girls have such ornate braids? It's to keep the knots out of their hair and to keep it healthy. In the circle of AA women I'm in - nobody processes their hair anymore and those that have little girls would be reamed out if the put a relaxer/perm on their child's head.

Another thing - next time you are in a big box store or a Walgreens - try this. Play a game of spot the "segregated AA hair products.". They are where they are for a reason. So we can find them with ease. But you won't find them next to the Suave.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #117)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:40 PM

121. Oh, ok, I knew about the segregated AA hair products, its just that most...

girls and women I know who are African-American are mixed race, and have naturally straighter hair. So I didn't know about the specific issues here. Thanks for the education.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #121)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:50 PM

122. I fall in that category

But like most to fit in with the dominant culture's perception of beauty - put those chemicals on my hair for years. That's why acknowledging differences are important. My husband stops and stares for two women that are celebrities . . . Charlize Theron and Thandie Newton. They are extremely different in appearance (except for their facial features). He's not a bad guy or a racist for seeing those differences.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #122)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:56 PM

123. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging differences, but to avoid embarrassment...

I try to avoid making assumptions based on any acknowledged differences.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #122)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:00 PM

125. Also, and I'll be completely honest here, I spend like 10 bucks, maybe 15, every few months...

to get my hair cut, and that's it, what I know about any woman's hair & fashion is negligible except for the women in my life talking to me about it, and me nodding my head and agreeing with their complaints. 99.9 percent of the time, I have no clue what they are talking about.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #63)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:33 PM

137. How about I'm color blind I don't care about color we are all different

Different sizes, gender, skin color, age, etc etc etc. Are you calling me a liar because I don't care if someone is different from me because we are all different from each other? Seriously? And calling me a liar fits into "They don't want to have ANY discussions on race or ethnicity " how as your stating that emphatically seems to be simply calling for shutting down a discussion.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #137)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:48 PM

140. take what you need

And leave the rest.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 01:21 PM

65. You are absolutely right

It's used as an excuse to not deal with racism and the consequences of racism. It's used like a racism loophole.

Also the people posting here that they are colorblind sound like they're part of a Stephen Colbert joke.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:10 PM

75. Saying things that are self-evidently nonsense is a good way to attract posters, but silly even so.

Colourblindness is not a form of racism.

Colourblindness has nothing to do with denying that other people treat people differently on account of their race, just about not doing so oneself. And not treating differently on account of their race does not preclude treating them differently on account of how other people have treated them.

Colourblindness has nothing to do with being blind to people of colour, that's just silly wordplay.

Colourblindness has not made race into a taboo subject, that's just mythology.

Colourblindness is nothing to do with multiculturalism. Non-colourblind multiculturalism - saying that people's culture is defined by their race, not by their choices - really *is* racism, and should be condemened.

Pretty much this entire post stinks to high heaven.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #75)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:12 PM

76. Reading the article helps

then you could read the responses by African American posters in this thread--that is if you actually care what that they think.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #76)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:33 PM

81. It's hard for me to respond to content-free snark with anything other than content-free snark.

Reading does indeed help, as does thinking. I did both, and as a result I was able to go through the points in your OP and rebut the more obviously absurd ones. Since your response has no actual arguments in it, just pure rudeness (nothing against rudeness in the context of debate, mind you - it's the absence of substance, not the presence of snark, that makes it a wasted post) it's hard for me to say more than this) there's not much more I can say.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #81)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:33 PM

143. If you have nothing to say, why say anything at all?

Colourblindness has nothing to do with denying that other people treat people differently on account of their race, just about not doing so oneself. And not treating differently on account of their race does not preclude treating them differently on account of how other people have treated them

Colourblindness has nothing to do with being blind to people of colour, that's just silly wordplay.

Colourblindness has not made race into a taboo subject, that's just mythology]


A large number of people on this thread disagree with you. I don't know of any African-American poster on this thread that agrees with you.

It isn't just silly wordplay.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:18 PM

77. I think that's Colbert's angle when his character claims he


"doesn't see color." It's a bit of a ridiculous claim to begin with, and it's also very convenient to demand we all jump from discrimination right to "ignoring" difference when the default is that your group benefits by subconscious or institutionalized means.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 02:25 PM

80. K&R

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:00 PM

83. I'm confused because I don't understand what differences are supposed to be highlighted...

and "celebrated" in his definition of "multiculturalism". Because, from a base, biological point of view, race is literally skin deep, and any differences would be from cultures and subcultures, not race. The two need to be removed from each other, because otherwise it would lead to prejudice.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #83)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:05 PM

87. There is no such thing as biological race

Race is a cultural construct. Race as a biological category did not emerge until the 18th century, and it developed as a justification for slavery.

In a cultural sense, however, race is very real. It influences social structure and how people perceive one another. As posts in this thread demonstrate, some African Americans resent the idea that people claim not to "see" race. Firstly, it's obviously not true. Secondly, being African American is part of who they are. They don't believe that identity should be erased for them to be treated as full and equal citizens.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #87)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:10 PM

95. Race is a cultural construct, that is true, but being a particular race, or percieved...

to be a member of a race doesn't mean you are part of that culture, that is the issue I have with the piece. It makes the erroneous assumption that all people who look a certain way are part of a certain culture, when in reality, its messy, inconsistent, and contradictory in many ways.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #95)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:11 PM

97. That is certainly true

I didn't have that same observation from the piece. I'll have to reread it.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #97)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:23 PM

102. The problem is I think, the way people use words...

for some people on this thread, "color blindness" basically means treating people as individuals first, and not put race in as a factor at all depending on context. While it can be argued that this is a "lie" or insulting, to be frank, while its not ideal, it certainly is better than the alternative, being prejudged based on your race.

The problem with the piece in the OP is that it lacks context, to give an example, in hiring practices, HR departments are to be, by federal law, color blind, otherwise they can get sued. Now, are they always color blind? No of course not, but the ideal is for them to be color blind, is it not? Recognizing that isn't saying that racism is a relic of the past, but getting beyond racial prejudice and discrimination is an ideal to strive towards.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #102)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:29 PM

103. Color blindness is claiming not to see race

which is obviously ludicrous. No one doesn't "see" race (hence the Colbert parody). One can see race and even appreciate cultural differences without treating other groups as inferior. Colorblindness, I thinks, makes an implicit assumption that everyone is like the dominant culture. It's the modern version of the melting pot, which may sound good at first blush but errs in refusing to recognize the value in diversity. Racial and cultural diversity makes a business or any other organization stronger, not weaker. More perspectives and a wider variety of life experiences enhance understanding. Blindness suggests ignoring, even erasing, those differences.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #103)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:41 PM

105. Colbert's parody is funny if you take it literally, like he does, for the sake of comedy...

but I have to ask, what cultural differences are you talking about here? There are plenty of cultures and subcultures in this country, and many of them aren't necessarily tied to race.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #105)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:14 PM

111. True, but that doesn't mean the ones associated with race make any less of a contribution

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #111)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:34 PM

119. That's not what I'm talking about, I'm talking about assumptions, based on perceptions of race...

about a person's cultural background.

For example, an ex-girlfriend of mine looked African-American, was mostly African-American in heritage but identified mostly as Japanese, which is the nationality of her grandmother, was a Buddhist, and studied in Thailand with monks. We broke up because she wanted to move to Japan to be with family there and teach ESL classes, which she was finally able to do.

My best friend growing up is biracial, raised by his white mom, in mostly white neighborhoods, with mostly white(or Philipino) friends, which culture is he a part of?

My own biracial nephew, for the first 4 years of his life, was mostly raised by me or my parents, some of the whitest white people you ever saw.

Then you have people who are ambiguous, like Vin Deisel, people that you look at, make assumptions about, and be completely wrong about.

I guess color-blindness is a probably wrong term to describe what I'm talking about, perhaps racial apathy is better terminology.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #103)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:55 PM

106. I certainly see that people are different, superficially, but I certainly don't make assumptions...

on their cultural background based on that, nor do I treat them any differently because of it.

Mostly because I find that half the time I would be wrong in my assumptions, its much easier to treat people as individuals than as members of a group.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #83)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:07 PM

91. I suspect that the people lecturing the most over this pretty much only know white people,

but spend a lot of time pondering the abstraction of interacting with minorities. So they don't actually have to address the practicalities of their theories.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #91)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:08 PM

93. Why don't you read the comments by African American posters in this thread

It's not a lecture. It's an article that suggests people think. There is nothing benevolent about refusing to confront racism.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #93)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:18 PM

114. Good point BB - but they don't want to do that

. Heaven forbid they try to stand in our shoes. That would be racist.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #91)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:13 PM

99. Wrong

Interesting assumption though.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:02 PM

84. I find this thread very annoying

Just like I found the white 'do-gooders' when I was raising my oldest son. They immediately noticed his skin color, proceeded to judge me, on sight, as a bad person. My little boy was treated (in the all white area where we lived) as someone who could do no wrong and also someone to be singled out for special (better) treatment, for some reason.

When I re-married and my (white) husband and I had a son, the way (white) people treated my two sons differently, was awful. It was some kind of interfering reverse racism.

Why was my eldest son be singled out for better treatment? Our culture was the same. He had no negative racial experiences. He was raised in a middle class home.

My oldest son is in his late 30's now and has never been discriminated against. When I was telling him and his British wife, what it was like in America when I married his father, they looked at me like I was crazy. I have an old friend from Alabama, who is the son of sharecroppers. He lives in California and his son's friends were all white, which made my old friend nervous. One day he gave his son a lecture about not trusting whitey because when trouble comes, they will turn on him. His son laughed at him....so did I when he told me. Times have changed, thank goodness.

Treat all people like human beings. Please don't try to judge people based on appearances. Please don't treat people differently based on their skin color. In my opinion, based on my experience, that is racism.


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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #84)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:06 PM

90. I found the article and thread annoying as well, having multiracial children in my extended...

family(nieces and nepphews), who will have experiences similar to your son, I'm sure, I find it disheartening.

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Response to Boudica the Lyoness (Reply #84)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:07 PM

92. What about this says don't treat people like human beings?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #92)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:08 PM

94. This thread is strawman central

as is the push poll created in response.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #94)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:10 PM

96. Do you mean my thread?

How so?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #96)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:11 PM

98. I mean the responses to your thread

You're getting strawman after strawman. "I believe in treating all people like human beings" as if the OP were saying NOT to treat people like human beings. There's one after another.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #98)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:15 PM

100. It's a heady subject

I think the responses signal people's unwillingness to think about race. They are anxious to proclaim, for example, the South, the GOP, or Florida as racist but don't want to think about the far more complicated ways that race and racism influence American society and our own cultural assumptions.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #92)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:59 PM

124. I should have said

Treat all people as part of one race, the human race. You have no idea how offensive I find your views and what misery they have brought to multi-racial families, like mine. Please stop singling people out based on their appearance.

I don't believe anything anyone says will sway you from your quest to discriminate between people of difference skin color, because I think it might be making you feel good. No matter how much misery you cause, you won't be swayed.

I spoke to one my sons about it and he thought it boiled down to white guilt. I believe he is right. It's about you.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:04 PM

85. Apparently "colorblindness" is DU's new "benevolent sexism".

Personally, I hold doors for women of all races.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #85)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:06 PM

89. There is nothing benevolent about a lie

which is exactly what colorblindness is.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 03:36 PM

104. For me, Richard Wright illustrated the flaw of 'colorblind' behavior.

Mary Dalton's naivete was deadly. We have no choice but to acknowledge that the color of our skin defines our day-to-day reality in ways that colorblindness cannot cure. If some here haven't read Native Son, I encourage you to put it on your reading list.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:17 PM

113. "In a colorblind society"

Then the author proceeds to list ways that our society is NOT colorblind.

If society was truly colorblind, there would be no racism, no disadvantages experienced due to race, no negative racial experiences.

I get the larger point though, that white people can delude themselves into thinking that as long as they are "colorblind" that all is well in the world and there's nothing more to be done - like hundreds of years of oppression can be wiped out by waking up one day and saying "I'm colorblind!" And that all minorities have to do is to wake up one day and declare themselves colorblind too and we can all sing kumbayah.

I don't know that I believe a colorblind society isn't a noble ideal, even though it's probably something I won't see in my lifetime. To get there you'd have to eliminate all the problems listed above.

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Response to shawn703 (Reply #113)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 08:39 PM

145. Exactly. Right on point.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:22 PM

116. "pretending we're colorblind ..."






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Response to napkinz (Reply #116)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:35 PM

120. And a big fat +1 to that!

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Response to napkinz (Reply #116)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:26 PM

136. Excellent point

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 04:31 PM

118. I treat all people the same. However, I see

their ethnicity or hear it in their voices. That enables me to consider what mistreatments, misunderstandings, or even privileges, they may have experienced. It does not change my attitudes or treatment of them, though. It simply informs.

Recognition of ethnicity or other differences is also treating people alike. Considering the effect of those things allows me to understand, somewhat, the influences that have affected them.

However, I will still treat everyone alike.

I'm not sure what the word "colorblind" means in this context. If one is blind, one cannot see. Seeing people is necessary to interact with them. We are all different, and all the same, and all at the same time.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #118)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:15 PM

128. I think you describe doing exactly what the article advocates

according to my reading.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #128)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:11 PM

130. That is how I was raised.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #118)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:02 PM

134. Making assumptions about people's experiences based upon their physical appearance,

or their accent, is not necessarily foolproof. Say you notice that someone has Asian features. Can you really infer anything useful from that? You probably can't even tell whether their ancestry is Indian, Pakastani, Bangladeshi, or something else. They might be very privileged or they might have grown up in desperate poverty.

I do agree with your approach of treating everyone equally regardless of their race.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #134)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:45 PM

139. That's not what the article "lectures" you to do at all

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #134)

Tue Jul 30, 2013, 08:54 AM

149. Of course. Generally, you learn from the person.

I live in a city where a number of East Asian ethnicities are present. Similarly, we also have immigrants from several parts of Africa. I make no assumptions about the actual ethnicity, and wait until I know it. I still treat everyone the same. If I learn the ethnicity, however, I will have a bit more information and will know more.

On my block, there are both Hmong and Vietnamese ethnicities represented. It is my habit to learn basic greetings, etc., in whatever languages are spoken near my home. Until I know the actual ethnicity of a neighbor, though, I don't guess. Once I do, and if their primary language is known, I will make an attempt to be polite in their language. It works very nicely and has helped me get to know my neighbors.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:01 PM

126. Really sad to see this only has 25 recs on DU, of all places.

I thought DU was collectively aware of and sensitive to privilege issues.

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Response to mattclearing (Reply #126)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:10 PM

127. Not only does it have only 25 recs

A large percentage of the people responding are arguing against it.

No, DU is not on the whole at all aware of or sensitive to privilege issues. Many don't even believe privilege exists because Beyonce is rich. See my signature. It's a regular theme here.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 05:38 PM

129. Nearly everyone I have met who claimed to be colorblind...

Was a blatantly racist right-winger. Of course I am sure it is just a coincidence that most of the people upset about this thread seem to be the same people who supported Zimmerman.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #129)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:13 PM

131. Nobody responded to my thread

but I noticed the same thing. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023366893

Very telling that the Zimmerman fan club claims to be "colorblind."

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Response to gollygee (Reply #131)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:21 PM

132. I did not see your thread before but I gave you a reply

Not a coincidence at all.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #129)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:23 PM

135. You noticed that too

Interesting, isn't it?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #135)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 07:40 PM

138. Certainly interesting, but not at all surprising.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #129)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 11:00 PM

148. Is that right??

Of course I am sure it is just a coincidence that most of the people upset about this thread seem to be the same people who supported Zimmerman.

Very interesting indeed. And not even the first bit surprising.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Mon Jul 29, 2013, 06:33 PM

133. I'm fine with multiculturalism;...

But in a let the chips fall where they may setting. I'm not into feeling any guilt about being born white and I don't support racial quotas or giving preferences on the basis of racial considerations. I'm okay with the open discussion part provided it really is open.

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