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Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:30 PM

I'll never forget the look in their eyes, they were terrified of me...

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 08:12 AM - Edit history (1)

This happened to me many years ago and I'll never forget it... And it explains to me why some are prone to believe Z's story that he was attacked by Trayvon Martin and not the other way around.

Let me start at the beginning: When I was around 18 years old, not much older than Trayvon himself, I used ride my bike to and from Downtown Detroit on the weekends to visit the Ethnic Festivals of the time. My route consisted of riding towards Downtown on Gratiot Ave and returning home on Jefferson Ave. Those of you who understand the layout of the city will understand why this is important.

Well, one day after spending my time at the festival, I took off on my return trip, heading east on Jefferson as I usually did. At some point I was passed on my left by a car, which pulled over to the side and stopped. Just as I was about to pass that stopped car to my right, the driver opened his door right in front of me. I quickly avoided the door for the most part, but clipped the edge with my right pedal. Now, my first reaction wasn't anger that this person almost took me out with his car door... I mean, here I am.. I'm alright and I hadn't bothered to look down at my pedal, which I discovered later was smashed. I was a bit in shock at this, the first thing out of my mouth was, "Are you alright?"

Well, the person who opened his car door in front of me was this older white man and in the passenger seat of the car was his older white wife. Now as I stood there, not angry mind you... not even being loud, without one word to me, he got out of his car and walked over to the newspaper stand that he parked next to, bought a paper and still without saying one word to me, he got back into his car and sped off... Heading east on Jefferson, ostensibly to the safe, White People confines of one the Grosse Pointes or whatever.

Once he did that, I took a moment to reflect on what just happened. Living in Detroit most of my life, I hadn't had much experience in dealing with strange White suburbanites... But to me, this was really telling.

That man and his wife were scared shitless that I was about to do something to them... Harm them in some way. I saw it in their EYES, which spoke to me louder than any words. Committing an act of violence was the furthest thing from my mind, as I said my first reaction was to express concern about them. I was raised to respect my elders and all that and I wasn't harmed. I would have at least liked an apology for almost side-swiping me... But I didn't even get a whoop tie-doo out of these people.

I thought, "How rude," as I saw them drive off.

But not just how rude they were, but genuinely frightened that I would harm them. Perhaps they were feeling guilty for being in the wrong for almost side-swiping me... But, then I thought, if they felt that way one of them would at least had bothered to tell me that they were sorry for doing that. Again, their EYES and their SILENCE spoke volumes.

Living out there in The Pointes, I would hazard a guess that any time they went into the city, their first concern would be to be on the look out for any darkies who would accost them out of the blue. Now just to let you know, I'd known plenty of Whites who lived IN the City and never once had any of these people ever imparted to me that they were scared to walk around Detroit while White. This was the early Eighties and crossing the suburban borders was then a tricky exercise.

But here I was, looking at a couple of scared White Suburbanites leave me flabbergasted in their exhaust.

The thing is that struck me later, in thought, is that I realized that, in the isolation of their bleached Suburban lifestyle, they hadn't had the opportunity to interact with the dazzling array of young Black males of Detroit , such as myself at the time. Instead they were conditioned to fear us and to be scared shitless of us instead of showing us the common fucking courtesy of even talking to us or offering us an apology for almost wiping us out on our bikes while they stopped for a copy of the local paper.

Perhaps, they were under the belief that we young Black males are predisposed to committing acts of violence upon their frail White bodies at the drop of the hat? That fear, of course, impelled them to be the silent assholes that they were.

Which brings us to today.

Earlier today, as I said, I had the misfortune of reading and even writing back and forth with the Z defenders in some of the news sites covering the trial.

And one theme seemed to run through most of their justifications of Z gunning down Martin. In their minds, they are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Martin attacked Z without provocation. You couldn't convince these people otherwise. They are rock-solidly certain that Martin was a violent perp who got what he deserved when Z shot him down.

After all, aren't ALL young Black males just itching to attack any unsuspecting White citizen at the drop of a hat? It happens all of the time, they say. We Black males are dangerous, even more so when in the presence of White people... Z was all too fortunate that he was armed for his own safety, that dark and rainy night.

Now, I have my own theory about Z, which I will leave for another time. This bit of writing is about his defenders and exchanges like the one I had on HuffPo with them:

ORANGEHAMMER
Commented 3 hours ago in Black Voices (I have a distinct impression that this person is anything other than the owner of a Black Voice)

“If the recorded shouting was not "get off me cracker" then it was not the angel TM.”
Favorite (6)

Mr Scorpio
135 Fans

3 hours ago ( 1:27 PM)
You know, if folks like yourself enjoyed the fact that Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin to death, it would really be nice for all of you to just come out and say it.

That would be a lot more honest than the poorly attempted tries at sarcasm, such as your own.

Christopher007
14 Fans
2 hours ago ( 2:15 PM)
It's quite sad Trayvon died, and I very much wish he hadn't chosen to beat Zimmerman up and it wouldn't have resulted

Mr Scorpio
135 Fans

1 hour ago ( 2:56 PM)
Apparently, you're taking Z's side in this argument. Do you also feel that he was justified in leaving his vehicle to follow Martin with a loaded weapon?


I'm still waiting for his answer, by the way.


But anyway, if anything is clear, it's that fear blinds people to a lot of things around them.












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Reply I'll never forget the look in their eyes, they were terrified of me... (Original post)
MrScorpio Jul 2013 OP
dkf Jul 2013 #1
gollygee Jul 2013 #4
dkf Jul 2013 #8
gollygee Jul 2013 #9
The Magistrate Jul 2013 #13
dkf Jul 2013 #20
The Magistrate Jul 2013 #26
gollygee Jul 2013 #31
Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #66
Maraya1969 Jul 2013 #77
1monster Jul 2013 #95
Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #134
DallasNE Jul 2013 #154
reusrename Jul 2013 #109
Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #135
reusrename Jul 2013 #137
Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #138
reusrename Jul 2013 #142
DallasNE Jul 2013 #155
yurbud Jul 2013 #141
DallasNE Jul 2013 #151
MrScorpio Jul 2013 #5
dkf Jul 2013 #12
gollygee Jul 2013 #14
The Magistrate Jul 2013 #15
dkf Jul 2013 #22
The Magistrate Jul 2013 #25
AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #32
The Magistrate Jul 2013 #33
AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #37
pnwmom Jul 2013 #50
Maraya1969 Jul 2013 #87
Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #67
The Magistrate Jul 2013 #68
Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #136
The Magistrate Jul 2013 #140
Ikonoklast Jul 2013 #160
Maraya1969 Jul 2013 #81
DallasNE Jul 2013 #156
MrScorpio Jul 2013 #16
dkf Jul 2013 #23
MrScorpio Jul 2013 #24
dkf Jul 2013 #49
MrScorpio Jul 2013 #55
dkf Jul 2013 #59
MrScorpio Jul 2013 #61
dkf Jul 2013 #62
Maraya1969 Jul 2013 #89
AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #58
DhhD Jul 2013 #74
DallasNE Jul 2013 #157
AtheistCrusader Jul 2013 #162
Skidmore Jul 2013 #42
dkf Jul 2013 #53
Skidmore Jul 2013 #56
dkf Jul 2013 #60
MrScorpio Jul 2013 #63
livvy Jul 2013 #75
pacalo Jul 2013 #43
JI7 Jul 2013 #69
Maraya1969 Jul 2013 #88
liberal_at_heart Jul 2013 #158
pacalo Jul 2013 #36
brush Jul 2013 #45
Diego_Native 2012 Jul 2013 #47
The Magistrate Jul 2013 #7
notadmblnd Jul 2013 #29
Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #65
FlaGranny Jul 2013 #72
Honeycombe8 Jul 2013 #139
Maraya1969 Jul 2013 #76
gollygee Jul 2013 #2
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MrScorpio Jul 2013 #34
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MrScorpio Jul 2013 #44
galileoreloaded Jul 2013 #51
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #147
ms liberty Jul 2013 #71
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MrScorpio Jul 2013 #48
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MrScorpio Jul 2013 #115
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MrScorpio Jul 2013 #118
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MrScorpio Jul 2013 #124
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MrScorpio Jul 2013 #127
nomorenomore08 Jul 2013 #149
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MrScorpio Jul 2013 #125
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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:40 PM

1. I don't think that is it...

 

To me it's the injuries and the screaming. I can't get into the idea that the guy without injuries was the one screaming for help.

Those screams do sound like someone in fear of their life or at least serious bodily injury. Actually it sounds like someone freaking out.

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Response to dkf (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:45 PM

4. If someone had a gun pointed at me

I would scream like freaking crazy. I'd be scared to death, regardless of whether I'd had any injuries. I know what a gun looks like and I know what they do. That's enough.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #4)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:50 PM

8. But the prosecution isn't making that argument are they?

 

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Response to dkf (Reply #8)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:53 PM

9. You said YOU didn't believe it was him screaming for that reason

YOU didn't think TM would scream because he wasn't the injured one. You weren't talking about prosecution arguments. Don't move the goalposts. Do you believe that or not?

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Response to gollygee (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:56 PM

13. Like Nailing Jello To The Wall, Ma'am, This One....

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Response to gollygee (Reply #9)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:28 PM

20. No evidence TM was on the bottom. Can we go with the assumption TM yelling for help while on top?

 

Injuries still give credence to GZs assertions of self defense. Less evidence of state of mind as in fear of life but still has elements.

Show me evidence Z was on top and its all over...guilty. He would have been able to withdraw and had the gun.

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Response to dkf (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:42 PM

26. The Person The Gun Points Towards, Ma'am, Is The Person In Fear....

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Response to dkf (Reply #20)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:02 PM

31. He has to be lying about his injuries

No way was his head smacked against the concrete like he said, and as many times as he said. I can't give any credence to any of his assertions.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #31)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:55 PM

66. I heard GZ say his head was hit once on the concrete, then he was able to shimmy onto the grass.

Where TM banged his head down again. This was in the videotape where GZ walked the cops through the incident at the scene.

He also said he was sucker punched by TM at the beginning, which is what knocked him down to begin with. He didn't see it coming, since it was dark.

His injuries are consistent with that (as they say).

But I didn't hear him say his head was hit 10 - 30 times. Does he say that at the police station?

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #66)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:39 AM

77. His legal team said it. He was hit about 12 times. Bashed in the head on the concrete. And he has

two little cuts to show for it and no swelling.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #66)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:22 PM

95. Then why were there no consistant injuries to Trayvons hands?

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Response to 1monster (Reply #95)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:44 PM

134. I was asking a question: where/when did GZ say his head was hit on concrete 10-30 times?

I haven't heard that. I watched part of the interview at the police station, right after the incident. I read part of that statement. I saw the testimony of the cop that took that statement. Saw the testimony of the 2nd cop that interviewed him. And I saw most of the videotape of GZ walking the cops through the incident, at the site.

People keep posting here in DU that he said his head was bashed on concrete 10-30 times. So I'm just askin'....which statement does he say that in?

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #134)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 01:47 AM

154. Zimmerman Claimed Martin Struck Him In The Face 25-30 Times.

When asked during cross-examination, Serino also admitted that he believed Zimmerman’s “minor injuries” weren’t consistent with his story. Zimmerman told Serino he estimates he was hit between 25-30 times by Trayvon.


These "hits" were to his face. Zimmerman also said that Martin slammed his head into the concrete a dozen times.

Keep in mind that 40 seconds passed between when the two first met face to face and the fatal shot was fired and it started with a shouting match that caused neighbors to call 911 and the 5 seconds before the shot rang out was dominated by the panicky scream. Keep in mind that in that time frame where Martin hit/smashed Zimmerman 37-42 times that they were also grappling for Zimmerman's gun. With all of that physical contact there was no Zimmerman DNA on Martin's hands, under his fingernails or on the cuffs of Martin's hoodie and no Martin DNA on Zimmerman's gun or holster. Amazing. And Martin's body was located some 8-10 feet from the sidewalk where Martin was said to be slamming his head into. More amazing.

Serino also asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin and Zimmerman told Serino "no, we were both going in the same direction" to which Serino said "that's following him".

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #66)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 03:49 PM

109. His story was different every time he told it.

 

In one of his statements he does say the Martin kid was repeatedly smashing his head on the sidewalk. I would think a person would need some stitches, and there would be A LOT of blood. Can't stay with that story.

Then, in another statement he says the Martin kid was just raining down blows on him, as many as 50 blows. No marks on the Martin kids hands an no evidence of being hit in the face 50 times. Can't stay with that excuse.

Then, in another statement he says the Martin kid was using both hands to try and suffocate him. This is supposed to have happened after he broke his nose with a "sucker punch" to start the fight. No blood on Martin's hands at all, no Zimmerman DNA at all on his hands. Was the Martin kid wearing latex gloves or something?

In any event, Zimmerman has told the story at least three times with different reasons for why he had to shoot the kid through the heart. Not one of his stories is believable.




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Response to reusrename (Reply #109)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:49 PM

135. Well, I gather from the responses to my question that GZ did not say his head was bashed

10-30 times on concrete. I was just wondering where he said that, since people in DU keep saying that, but I haven't ever heard that outside of DU or in any of GZ's statements. But I haven't heard every word and read his statements in total, so I could've missed that.

As for his injuries, they're not serious, that's for sure. But there's no point in disregarding the fact that he was, in fact, injured. The back of his head was injured, as was his nose. TM was not injured. There's no getting around that.

(Also, it wasn't just GZ that said TM was pummeling him, one of the eyewitnesses said that TM was straddling him & hitting with both arms/hands, so that tends to support GZ's version. But another witness said it was the guy with red on top...GZ was wearing a red/black jacket. So I don't know if they switched places at one point or one witness is mistaken.)

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #135)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:00 AM

137. The witness who says the Martin kid was on top did NOT see any blows strike anyone.

 

Sure, the Martin kid probably did punch that asshole in the nose. Why wouldn't he?

And a gunshot to the heart would have to be considered deadly force, so for you to argue that he wasn't injured in sort of weird.

Zimmerman was trained in MMA. He murdered this kid in cold blood.

page 3:

http://matchbin-assets.s3.amazonaws.com/public/sites/312/assets/1G4C_ZimmermanWrittenStatement.pdf

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Response to reusrename (Reply #137)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:15 AM

138. He wasn't injured other than the fatal shot, of course. Injured as in a fight.

You're parsing words when you say the witness didn't hear or see blows. It was dark so he couldn't see the hands. But he saw both arms going down repeatedly to the guy on bottom, straddling him, martial arts mix style, he said...the motion as if he were hitting him. The jury is probably going to find that whoever that was on top was in fact hitting the guy on bottom. But they may find that it was GZ on top, or that they don't know who was on top & who was on bottom, since witness testimony contradicts each other.

TM wasn't injured as from a fight, so GZ didn't beat up TM, it seems to me.

That does not mean it was appropriate or legal for GZ to pull his gun out. GZ was smaller, but I find it hard to believe he couldn't get TM off him in some other way, if only to threaten him w/the gun but not use it. But I don't know.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #138)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:58 AM

142. The problem is, nothing you are clinging to makes sense.

 

Why did Zimmerman hunt him down and kill him if he wasn't living out some kind of dark fantasy?

I guess you can keep pushing this theory that he ran into the Martin kid at the exact moment just before the kid turned into a homicidal maniac and Zimmerman was alert enough to understand that this amazing transformation was about to happen so he decided to follow him to protect himself. He really did know that the was going to be "something not right" about the kid if he just kept following him.

The obvious answer is staring you in the face. Martin was trying to get away and Zimmerman was holding him so he could kill him. Shot him through the heart.

That's why there's no evidence of all these strikes being thrown, and why no strikes were landed by Zimmerman.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #138)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 01:59 AM

155. GZ Weighed 204, TM weighed 158. Yes, GZ Was 3 Inches Shorter. So, Who Is Smaller? n/t

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Response to dkf (Reply #20)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:34 AM

141. the person with the gun gets out of his vehicle and pursues someone with no weapon

who's on top hardly matters when the one without the gun ends up dead.

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Response to dkf (Reply #20)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 12:30 AM

151. Two Eye Witnesses Testified It Was Zimmerman On Top And

Martin who was screaming. Because of the darkness they were less certain than Good was about Martin being on top but that evidence is out there. Which makes more sense, the 158 pounder on top and dominate or the 204 pounder on top and dominate. That is a 46 pound advantage for Zimmerman. Even though Zimmerman was stalking Martin he was entitled to fight back once Martin defended himself by popped him in the nose but not entitled to pull out his gun and shoot him through the heart.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/0626/Boy-s-voice-called-for-help-testifies-eyewitness-in-Trayvon-Martin-case-video/(page)/2

An expert witness also testified that a single blow to the bridge of Zimmerman's nose was responsible for all of his injuries.

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Response to dkf (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:47 PM

5. Which, of course, explains their belief that it was Z who was screaming and not Martin

To them, that was Z expressing the abject fear of his own life from the unwarranted attack by the dangerous young Black Martin.

In their minds, there is absolutely no other explanation about who's doing the screaming and why.



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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #5)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:56 PM

12. For me it's the injuries that explain the belief that Z was screaming.

 

That would be a logical argument, not an assumption of who attacked who or whether it was warranted or not.

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Response to dkf (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:58 PM

14. I don't understand your logic

Being injured doesn't make you scream more. In fact, depending on the injuries, you might be in shock, or weakened by the injuries, and unable to scream as strongly, or if in shock at all.

Someone who had his head hit 20 to 30 times against the sidewalk would probably be unconscious and unable to scream, if you want to be really technical.

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Response to dkf (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:00 PM

15. Zimmerman Did Not Scream, Ma'am

Any man who has been in a fight as an adult knows this.

He says he did, but he says a lot of things, all of them lies, lies specifically tailored to try and match provisions of law and make him out as justified in doing what he set out to do --- make sure that fucking punk did not get away with it tonight....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:30 PM

22. I have no experience with being beaten so honestly I do not know.

 

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Response to dkf (Reply #22)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:37 PM

25. Real Fights Are Surprisingly Quiet, Ma'am

It takes a lot of breath, and you very quickly have none to spare. Someone who is making great noise is either thoroughly in control, or utterly helpless. Zimmerman was not utterly helpless; he held a deadly weapon, and went into the situation secure in that knowledge.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #25)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:11 PM

32. Disagree.

I have seen in multiple instances that an aggressor has the tables turned, and starts losing the fight, will 'turtle up' and start screaming for help.

Some people are billy badass when they start a fight, but as soon as they start to lose, it's screaming, crying, pleading, on the ground, trying to get away.

I don't know that this is what happened here. But it is within a range of possibilities. Personally, I believe the screaming was probably the victim, Travyon Martin. But I wasn't there and don't know that for sure. I can also envision a scenario in which Zimmerman stalked him, physically accosted him, Mr. Martin fought back, and was winning (And Z unable to deploy his firearm), at which point Z broke loose or Martin relented, and Z shot him in fear. (Which of course, would not constitute self-defense) Also possible BOTH parties in the fight reasonably though they were losing.

Many possibilities. Most of them point to Z as the aggressor, and Mr. Martin as the victim. I have to construct very strange hypotheticals to reverse the positions. But I would not consider it impossible that the screams were Zimmerman, and if they are, that doesn't automatically imply Zimmerman was the victim.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #32)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:21 PM

33. You Can Fight, Sir, Or Scream: Doing Both At Once Is The Nub

Somebody who has, as you phrase it, turtled-up ( choice phrase, by the way ), is not fighting, though he may be getting waled on still. Zimmerman's claim is that he was fighting for his life, taking serious disorienting injury, and screaming for help all at once. Does not ring true.

Mr. Martin saw the gun. He screamed in fear for his life. Zimmerman shot him, point-blank, through the heart. Deliberately.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #33)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:28 PM

37. I agree.

You are right, I should not consider that still a 'fight'. My mistake.

I agree, no matter how I try to line up Zimmerman's claims to the evidence that has been made public, he comes out a liar, at the least.

I also agree that the screams were probably brought about by the appearance of the firearm, and it just took a period of time for Zimmerman to get it lined up and shoot Martin.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #25)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:18 PM

50. Just like real drownings are silent because

every bit of attention, focus, and energy is being used just to stay alive -- none left over for shouting

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Response to dkf (Reply #22)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:20 AM

87. Go out for a jog and try to scream while you are running. You can't be exerting yourself

physically and also scream like that scream in the audio. The person that was making that scream was doing nothing but screaming. Probably staring right into the barrel of a gun.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #15)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:59 PM

67. That's what you feel. Thank goodness trials are based on evidence and not feelings.

Or Zimmerman would've been killed right after the incident, with no evidence presented at all.

He is presumed innocent. As much as that gets the goat of many, it has to be that way. Ted Bundy was presumed innocent, too. There's a reason for that. Even if everyone knew that Bundy was guilty, if a jury declared him not guilty because the govt didn't prove its case, it has to be that way. Otherwise, we get into the public feeling that someone is guilty, and that would mean there's no reason to have a trial in teh first place. For anyone.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #67)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 11:01 PM

68. That Is What Happened, Ma'am

It is a conclusion based on what is known publicly, weighed in light of a long life's experience. There is nothing that has or will emerge at the trial very different from what has long been known publicly.

It is understood you have an emotional interest in Zimmerman walking; it would be such a shame if someone who lived out the gun-fetishist's dream wound up in jail for murder, instead of being feted as a credit to his community and inspiring example of good citizenship.

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #68)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:55 PM

136. What a condescending little post from a very little man, sir. Maybe some hormones...

will help keep your emotions in check.

This is a discussion about evidence, facts, jury decisions, the law, and logic. I understand you're an emotional little fella, and I'm sure you recognize that about yourself, as well. So leave the discussions to people who can discuss current events without attacking other posters. The juvenile room is down the hall.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #136)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:30 AM

140. You Crippled Back After Twenty-Four Hours With That, Ma'am?

Jesus H. Christ on a pogo-stick....

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #136)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 09:04 AM

160. No, The Magistrate got it absolutely right, this is all about guns for you.

Trayvon Martin is collateral damage in your world, and the use of deadly force at any time for any reason by armed vigilantes is to be defended here at all costs.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #67)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:51 AM

81. You mean the lack of any DNA of Z's under Martin's fingernails or on his clothes or hands? One

would think it someone was actually killing another person with their hands there would be transfer of DNA. This did not happen here. The only transfer was some of Z's on Martin's under - sweatshirt.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #67)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 02:26 AM

156. Not Exactly

Zimmerman would be presumed innocent if he was pleading not guilty. He has not done that. He defense is that he killed Trayvon Martin in self defense. The burden of proof is on Zimmerman that it was indeed self defense. Failing that Zimmerman must be found guilty of taking Martin's life. The State must prove that Zimmerman acted in a depraved manner in order to get a 2nd degree murder verdict. Failing that, Zimmerman would be guilty of manslaughter.

I want to hear how the Judge instructs the Jury because that could go a long ways in the verdict the Jury comes back with. All three of these options are possible but I would put the odds as 25-50-25, meaning a 25% chance of self defense, a 50% chance of manslaughter and a 25% chance of 2nd degree murder. (I wonder what Las Vegas is saying).

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Response to dkf (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:01 PM

16. Except Z didn't suffer any life threatening injuries, just a few superficial ones from the struggle

Z's screaming isn't a logical argument at all to me, especially since the screaming suddenly stopped the moment his gun had fired, shooting Martin in his chest.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:33 PM

23. You are dealing with a bunch of jurors more like me than you...ie female.

 

You say they are superficial....we women have been taught all physical contact is bad and dangerous.

This jury is very bad for the prosecution IMO.

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Response to dkf (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:37 PM

24. Now really, who do you think initiated contact?

What's your gut feeling about this?

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #24)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:18 PM

49. My gut says I don't know.

 

I think they were both suspicious of each other. Who said what first, who grabbed, punched first, I do not know.

I prefer analysis.

I probably do underestimate racism though at least in comparison to most here. It's not my first instinct.


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Response to dkf (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:32 PM

55. "I don't know", is I guess, the safe answer

But I'm wondering if you took what was known about each other's state of mind leading up to that contact?

Z's outright anger, his call to 911, his willingness to carry a loaded pistol and his pursuing of Martin, versus Martin's wariness of being watched and followed by Z, his attempt to avoid contact and the fact of his age and also that he was unarmed.

You say both of them were suspicious of each other, but in retrospect, which one of the two do you believe had the most reason to be suspicious of the other?

Which one of the two seemed to you to be the most predisposed to being suspicious from the git-go and why would you think that person would feel that way.

And before you answer this, let's say that

You're pointing out that you're not giving racism a lot of thought here.

Perhaps an unwillingness on your part to consider how racism is factored in is clouding your ability to assess the probability that Z wasn't as much of a victim as he said he was?

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #55)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:00 PM

59. That is actually the way to get 2nd...

 

Prove Z shot TM due to racial hatred. Thus not out of fear but malignant aggression.

I don't know how to judge that. Seems too speculative to me given what we've been presented. How do you prove that beyond a reasonable doubt? Tough.

Do you really believe Z shot TM specifically because of racial hatred?

Or if it was more benign but initially triggered by an unjustified prejudice is that enough for 2nd?

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Response to dkf (Reply #59)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:22 PM

61. Well, given what you've just said about Z's apparent malignant aggression...

How does that translate into a situation where Z's crying out in abject fear of his own life as a form OF aggression.

That makes absolutely no sense at all, does it not?

Rather than racial hatred, my own personal assessment of Z tells me that he acted on his own rather distorted and prejudicial belief that all young black males are out to commit harm in one way or the other. His muttering that "they," meaning other young black males like Martin are "always getting away."

And in an attempt to prevent "them" from "getting away" this time, he took it upon himself to make physically certain that this "other" that he was tracking was detained so that Martin would be available one the police arrived.

He had a gun, he knew that the police was coming, he took it upon himself to create his own responsibility for detaining Martin. Martin, on the other hand, had absolutely no reason to understand why he was treated in such a manner.

What did he do?

If Z grabbed Martin, which I'm absolutely sure what would have happened, and Martin resisted, wouldn't that impel Z to escalate his efforts to detain an unwilling Martin, up to point where the struggle began? After all, Z's actions stemmed from his completely faulty belief that he was entitled to do such a thing, hence the way he armed himself, before stalking Martin, am I right?

Why is any of this in dispute?

Do you actually believe everything that Z described about his own and Martin's actions?





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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #61)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:37 PM

62. No. I think the words attributed to TM are suspect.

 

"You got me". Ludicrous.

But 2nd degree "depraved mind" seems a high bar from what I've been reading.

And yet self defense seems to trump 2nd or manslaughter. Say Z was racially prejudiced and threw the first punch. By my reading he still gets to claim self defense if he reasonably thought his life was in danger or he was in danger of serious bodily harm. That seems like a pretty low bar to me.

The problem is the law IMO. There is no protection for people who get into fights. Once they dominate offensively they are open targets. Rather strange law with strange interpretations.

This whole case turns things on its head from what I always thought about manslaughter in particular. I thought that was the punishment for an unintended death.


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Response to dkf (Reply #62)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:32 AM

89. What about, "You're going to die tonight" Everyone says that when they are going into

a fist fight right? What would make TM think he had the ability to kill a bigger man with his own bare hands?

No, it was contrived to lend credence to Z being "afraid for his life" but it sounds so phony I think it will work against him.

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Response to dkf (Reply #49)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:43 PM

58. Trayvon's hands, forensically, suggest to me that he never put up a serious fight

against Zimmerman at all, defensively or offensively.

Knuckles are ok, no DNA under the nails, etc.

I don't know precisely how Z's nose got broken, but it doesn't appear to have been with Martin's fists, not repeatedly bashing anyway. Bareknuckle fighting tends to screw up your hands.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #58)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:01 AM

74. If TM was on top of Z, how could a gun shot enter the front of TM's chest?

If someone is underneath, with a gun, the bullet wound would be on the side or back of the person on top. Was there DNA of TM on Z's gun? I believe the answer is, no. How far away was the blood splatter then? I believe that blood splatter angle will determine the distance between the two at the time that Z pulled the trigger. Was Z covered with blood and power of a point blank shot? I believe not.

Looking forward to this evidence.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #58)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 02:42 AM

157. One Possibility

Martin swung the bag with the iced tea and skittles and caught Zimmerman flush in the nose. I would think that would have caused damage to the iced tea can but it is still a possibility. Also, I haven't seen where the bag and Martin's cell were found relative to Martin's body. If things happened the way Zimmerman claims then they should be close.

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Response to DallasNE (Reply #157)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 10:55 AM

162. But that would put the lie to Zimmerman's claim of how the attack went.

Because that's not what he claimed at all.

To me, his credibility is in tatters, but I'm not sure that has been demonstrated adequately to the Jury.

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Response to dkf (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:50 PM

42. As a female, and a mother, I find

Zimmerman intimidating and creepy in his demeanor. I also think he lies too easily and is very comfortable with embellishment. The every increasingly detailed story he told did not ring true. In fact, it sounded like the script of a bad teevee movie. It's hard to defend a lie.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #42)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:25 PM

53. I am suspicious of those words too.

 

Always seemed too pat and convenient.

I am more interested in collaborating testimony.

I can't get around the issue that even if he was the aggressor he still has the right to self defense.

How do you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that someone with those injuries isn't afraid for their life.

The moral of the story seems to be that getting into any confrontation is very dangerous. You need to run/retreat. Even "winning" the fight doesn't mean you get out alive.

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Response to dkf (Reply #53)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:38 PM

56. The moral of the Zimmerman story is that

if you go looking for trouble, you'll find it. He went looking for trouble and shot an unarmed kid. He should have stayed in his car and let the cops handle it.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #56)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:08 PM

60. Sucks to be him. This certainly isn't a lesson in building a good life.

 

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #56)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:41 PM

63. He should have never called the cops in the first place and just gone about HIS own business

And allowed Martin to go about his.

There is absolutely no justification for ANY of Z's actions.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #63)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:19 AM

75. Ding, ding, ding....

exactly correct. Thank you. This never should have happened, period.

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Response to dkf (Reply #23)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:50 PM

43. I wasn't impressed with the jury pool -- shallow, lacking depth, from a gun culture.

But I can tell you one thing: A mother would be able to tell, without a doubt, if that was her son screaming. If any of those female jurors have any sense of fairness & decency, they will know that.

And as I wrote in another post down-thread, I can't see a person who is in a state of a full-blown adrenaline rush being able to compose themselves so abruptly after shooting a person. Zimmerman would have continued, at the very least, screaming out "oh, my god", "please come help me" or whatever instead of turning to stone as though he were suddenly unplugged.

And Zimmerman was the one with the gun. The guy who needs the bodyguards because he's now terrified of the public didn't hesitate to use his gun to soothe his paranoia that night, either. He shouldn't have gotten out of his car. The fact that the victim is being blamed in any way is deplorable.

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Response to dkf (Reply #23)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 05:11 AM

69. i'm a female and i find guys who follow like zimmerman creepy , i relate with Trayvon

in fact if a creepy thug like zimmerman followed me the way he did trayvon and got close enough i would probably strike out at him and try to push him as much as i could and try to get away.

and i guess he would have a right to shoot me then the way he did trayvon.

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Response to dkf (Reply #23)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:24 AM

88. I'm a woman and they look superficial to me. If your kid came home with those cuts on

his forehead you would probably rinse them off and put a band-aid on them. The nose is a little different.

Women who have had kids know about scrapes and cuts and what is dangerous and what is not. Kid come home with scrapes and cuts all the time, just like Z's.

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Response to dkf (Reply #23)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 02:43 AM

158. sorry but you don't speak for all of us females. To me the only fact that matters is that

Zimmerman was told by the 911 dispatcher not to follow him. He was told to stay in his truck and wait on the police. Had he done that Trayvon would be alive today.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #16)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:27 PM

36. If it had been Zimmerman screaming, he wouldn't have abruptly stopped after the shooting.

His adrenaline rush would have continued, he would have been extremely agitated & shaken -- particularly after having just shot someone -- & I can't comprehend how his extreme emotional state could completely shut down so abruptly from that moment to the next, like a light switch.

Why this witness wasn't called by the prosecution is beyond me:

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Response to dkf (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:56 PM

45. Are you not following the trial?

The woman ME said that zimmy's injuries were not consistent with his head being "repeatedly bashed onto the concrete 20-30 times" and the only treatment he needed was a band-aid.

A band-aid? C'mon.

Anyone who believes that you just get up and walk away from having your head "repeatedly bashed" onto concrete is either naive, stupid, in denial, or their judgment is clouded by their biases.

Human heads + repeated concrete bashing = concussion, cracked skull, semi-consciousness, or knocked totally the fuck out.

Nobody, and I mean nobody, just gets up from that with nothing but a couple of small scratches and a little blood (note: there was no blood found on the sidewalk where zimmy said this allegedly happened).

zimmerman is a lying sack of you know what who thinks people are stupid to believe such crapola. And remember, zimmy has a history of 1.) arrest in a bar where he punched an undercover cop 2.) restraining order by a girlfriend 3.) getting fired from a job for manhandling a woman at a party where he was hired as security. None of that is admissible but he clearly has a history of confronting or attacking others - particularly weaker opponents. He was taking martial arts training at the local gym. EVERYTHING points to GZ attaching TM.

Hope I brought you a little more up to date on what's come out since this case began.

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Response to dkf (Reply #12)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:11 PM

47. Having been in, perhaps, half a dozen kerfuffles in my life,

some more serious than others, I can say from my own experience that, despite the injuries I sustained, I did not, could not, even think of yelling out at the time. In at least two of the incidents my injuries were much more serious than GZ's. And, I would add, that in none of the circumstances did I ever consider my life in danger. My lip and my eye, and in one case, my shinbone, maybe, but, small as I am at 5' 4'', it still would take quite a bit to beat me to death...and, I suspect, it would take quite a bit to beat another man to death with nothing more than your fists and feet even if he weren't larger and heavier and fighting back.

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Response to dkf (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:49 PM

7. You Have Crossed Over Into Self-Parody, Ma'am

"You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, Sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?"

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Response to dkf (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:48 PM

29. "I can't get into the idea that the guy without injuries was the one screaming for help".

Really? You say that as though dying from a gunshot wound isn't an injury. SMH

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Response to dkf (Reply #1)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:52 PM

65. But GZ did have injuries. Bloody seemingly broken or dislodged nose, bloody spot back of head.

TM had only 2 injuries I've heard of: The fatal shot of course, and a small scrape on knuckle of his left hand.

Not saying who assaulted who first, but it's incorrect to say that GZ had no injuries. If that's who you meant.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #65)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:15 AM

72. Zimmerman

actually had a relatively tiny amount of blood on the back of his head. If you've ever had a head wound, you know that the smallest of wounds on the head can cause a lot of blood. One punch from Martin to Zimmerman's nose could have caused him to fall backward and hit his head on the sidewalk. One punch, which I believe he had every reason to deliver because of his fear of this stranger following and accosting him. Anyone minding his or her own business and being followed by a stranger would have been afraid. At the least Zimmerman acted with extreme recklessness. It really makes no difference who hit who first or even who grabbed for the weapon first. The whole affair was caused by the recklessness of Zimmerman.

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Response to FlaGranny (Reply #72)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:25 AM

139. I didn't get into all that. I merely pointed out...GZ was injured, TM was not.

So it seems common sense to me that TM was hitting on GZ and not the other way around.

I do think it matters who hit who first. He had a right to confront GZ, if that's what happened. Nothing illegal about that. But he had no right to hit him, as far as I can tell. (TM didn't seem afraid, to me, based on what Rachel, the gf, said that TM said)

But what is more important, I think, is whether it was appropriate for GZ to defend himself against fists with a gun. If he really was defending himself against fists at the time.

The actions of both people are relevant. That is the law. There are certain defenses to killing someone, and that involves the actions of both of the fighters.

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Response to dkf (Reply #1)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:34 AM

76. The guy with the injuries was Trevon Martin. Namely a bullet through his heart.

It doesn't even make sense that if Trevon Martin was on top of Z all he did was scream and not try and fight back. Someone is throwing punches at you and all you can do is scream?

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:43 PM

2. You are absolutely right

When I was about 18, I was driving from western MI to visit family in the Detroit area with a friend my own age. We drove through Pontiac on our way to whatever all white suburb we were headed to, and our car broke down. My friend was from some Detroit suburb, but I grew up in an integrated school district on the west side of the state. (You're from Michigan - I bet you can figure it out which as there aren't many.) She was freaked out, like she thought we were going to get killed, but several people came up to help us figure out what was wrong with the car is all that happened. The friend had some expensive flashy stuff just sitting on the back car seat en route to the family members, and we spent much our our time away from the car a bit while folks were fixing it, and no one took anything. They just chatted with us, brought us out water to drink and snacks, and fixed our car just to be nice. But people really are afraid to drive through Detroit. I remember going with people to Tigers games back at the old stadium, and it was the same. They'd warn us not to make eye contact with anyone, like someone would charge the car or something. I'd ask, "What do you think they're going to do?" and the'd tell me that people in Detroit carjack. How common was carjacking in Detroit ever?

People are crazy irrational about race. I mean really crazy irrational about it. If they were as irrational about any other issue, they'd be advised to take medication for it. People drive in a huge circle around Detroit to get from a south suburb to a north suburb rather than just going through it. If you took a huge detour to avoid a bridge because you had an irrational fear of it falling, you'd be called obsessive compulsive. Bridges very occasionally collapse, but it's considered an irrational fear to avoid all bridges. So yeah someone somewhere might at some time been a victim of car jacking, but it is really uncommon.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:44 PM

3. Thank You! I know exactly what you are talking about..

I also believe the media are also in helping to build the stereotypes....automatic door lock of a car when a black person approaching..automatic clutching of handbag because a black person(even though they are in a biz suit) stepped in there with you...

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:48 PM

6. I grew up on the west side

and attended St. Cecilia's High School (Grand River/Livernois) which was a predominately black neighborhood (1964/65). I didn't live in that neighborhood and many people would ask if it was 'safe' there. Here I am almost 50 years later so it seems it was. However I do have cousins who never set foot in the city and were scared to death of you know what............... So yes, those folks who never have any interaction and/or believe generalizations are true would no doubt be apprehensive in that situation. As is the case with many who can't grasp that TM had a right to be where he was and (my opinion) is Z was looking for trouble. When it (maybe) more than he could handle, he panicked.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:53 PM

10. I think you are correct. From my travels around the country, there

are places where only lily white folks live. They have no outside experiences, much like some Americans can't abide people from Europe or South America. If you live in a cocoon, then you're afraid when you exit it.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 04:54 PM

11. I lived in Jamaica Plain my last 4 years in Boston

It was an area that was roughly 1/3 black, 1/3 Irish and 1/3 Puerto Rican with a hundred other nationalities of origin thrown in for variety. It was also no secret that it had the lowest crime rates in the city.

Once in a while, there would be a wreck on the Jamaicaway, the main route to some of the western burbs, and drivers would go down Centre Street to avoid it. There they were, in the safest part of the city, and we'd see them furiously rolling windows up and locking doors as they drove. It was hilarious and insulting all at the same time.

So yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. They were terrified of any human interaction outside their workplaces and safely in their lily white suburbs.

Now JP might have changed in the 2 decades since I left it, but I imagine the behavior of the commuting suburbanites has not.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:03 PM

17. "Make sure to lock your doors" is something I hear from

a family member of mine any time we're in any location where a non-white person might possibly appear somewhere on the street. And we're not talking about an elderly relative, either; this person is still in their 40s, college-educated, and would consider themselves reasonably liberal.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:06 PM

18. Humans find such comfort in ignorance

I can't tell you how much I agree with you about how fear will probably burn this nice planet we are lucky to live on .

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:07 PM

19. I will bring you to today, and no I am not proud of that ex neighbor

I live in a nice "gated community." I use it in that way due to the fact it is always open.

Anyhoo, until recently this was a mixed community of white and more or less wealthy mexicans who bought vacation homes here. Lo and behold... a black family moved in.

Oh the horror... I was and still am very polite to all my neighbors and gosh darn it, I speak to them... not one of my ex neighbors. As soon as he found they were not renters. but HORROR OF HORRORS... owners... he moved.

Oh he was having none of it. Ironically his place was bought by another young family of color, who are very nice indeed. Many of us actually thought it was the height of irony that his property was bought by them.

We talk and everything... hell, during the power outage I lent out radios. (I have a few).

That was one of those things that I will never forget since that was the LAST person I expected that from

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:30 PM

21. I've seen that fear.

I'm white and female, but wasn't raised to fear. I don't fear much. I WAS raised to respect and enjoy people.

Back in 1988, I got a call from my ex-SIL. We went to high school together, and after I divorced her brother, we were single moms together. It was a Wednesday, about 8:30, and she'd just gotten home to find a message on her answering machine from HER ex in another state, telling her that he'd put their 7 yo daughter on a plane by herself to send her home. A week early.

She was in a panic and asked me to head to LAX with her. We knew we'd be late; there was no way to get there in time for the plane's landing. She was in such a panic that she got off at the wrong off-ramp and got lost, even though she'd made this trip many times before.

We found ourself in a not-so-white middle-class-suburban neighborhood. It was 9:30ish by this time, we were already 45 minutes late, and she didn't know where she was. She was also terrified of the neighborhood. She was looking at places of business with bars on the windows and watching the locals out on side walks, and I knew it was their blackness that scared her. She was raised that way. She wasn't afraid of black people when they were middle class suburbanites, but...

She got more and more panicked. Finally I spotted a gas station up ahead. I told her to pull in and we'd ask for directions. I didn't notice that the gas station was closed, because it was lit up. When we pulled up, we looked over at the booth where the employee taking payment was supposed to be, and that's when we realized that the station was closed. How'd we know? There was a black man trying to get the cash drawer out with a crowbar.

She just about had a stroke right there. The guy looked up, saw us, walked over, and leaned down into the window. I told him we were lost and late for a flight at LAX, and he casually gave us directions. I thanked him. She, shaking, pale, and barely breathing, pulled out of the station, gently, rolled up her windows, locked her door, and I repeated the directions. They were good. We were there in about 6 minutes.

That incident, interestingly enough, solidly cemented her pre-conceived notions about black men, and also reinforced mine. Yes, he was attempting theft. But he did not reach into the car to pull out one or both of the young, attractive white women and rape and murder them, then steal their car. He offered up what help he could, and then went about his business.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #21)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:15 PM

107. wow, that's quite an experience!

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:46 PM

27. I think your experience is quite common, and that is exactly why i think

Zimmerman tracked and killed Mr. Martin. He wasn't carrying a gun because he felt safe in his own neighborhood, after all! Please understand, I am not saying that there is any basis for this fear; there isn't. But that fear becomes the justification for taking violent action.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:48 PM

28. Without the doubt...

This is very well written in direct rhetoric toward the fearful white people. I'm white myself but I never allowed the fear to guide me anymore. I used to be regular to downtown Minneapolis and North Mpls and never have any issues with any of black people. When I grew up, I was taught to respect anybody no matter who they are and they will return the respect to me. I once got into unintentional altercation with a black dude and I never threw a punch, I told him that I honestly never wanted to provoke him with anything. He apologized and patted on my back.

A white people who are fearful of black people for no reasons except the color or skin are utter pathetic. Its their own choice to be fearful. They chose to allow the Fox News to guide them instead of tell them to think for themselves.


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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 05:55 PM

30. For another point of view, I worked in a nearby city with an African American gentleman who

liked to go out driving. He made the casual comment that he was always certain to be out of my rural county before dark. I was startled by the comment, because while the county was mostly white at the time, I was unaware of any problems. I attributed his concern to the fact that he grew up in the South in the 50's. Later on, a couple drunken kids burns down a Sikh temple in revenge for 9/11, so I think this gentleman's instincts were correct. More than likely, he would have been fine, but if he'd run into the wrong people determined to keep him out of their town....

Funny, how whites fear blacks but usually it's whites (or white cops) who hassle or harm blacks!

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Response to hedgehog (Reply #30)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:21 PM

34. Around the same time as that sideswiping incident, I rode my bike to Eastland Mall

Which is on the other side of the border of what was then mostly White suburbia.

Well, after my time at the mall, on my way back home, I had the misfortune of giving two White suburban cops the opportunity of showing me why crossing the border was such a tricky exercise indeed. That border being the infamous Eight Mile Road.

I was at a stop sign, waiting for traffic to pass before going through an intersection, when they came up behind me and told me to get up off my bike, which I paid for with my own hard earned money, so they could inspect it and frisk me while accusing me of stealing my own damn bicycle.

One of the cops actually snatched it out of my hands so that he could call in the serial number, which of course, didn't come back as a stolen bike.

I have no doubt that had I protested him snatching my own bike out of my hands, both of them would have beaten the living shit out of me right then and there.

Well, after those to found out that they had absolutely no reason to arrest me or further detain me, they let me go back on my way to the City.

From then on there, whenever I went to Eastland, I'd drive the car instead.

Funny thing is, I always felt safer in mean ol' Detroit, than I ever felt in the 'burbs. Never afraid of the Detroit cops who never bothered me and never ever accused of stealing my own gawd-damned bicycle.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:26 PM

35. Good post

The thing is that the vast majority of socio-economic, political, cultural, religious and other institutions perpetuate this fear. Otherwise the poor would get together.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:34 PM

38. a few online chats..

have revealed quite a bit about the prejudices of those rallying against 'the angel'
a couple have started with the 'I'd stop and question someone looking suspicious in my neighborhood'

Id ask why donning a hood in light rain makes someone suspect and it turns to 'well, he was a new face', and I mention the fact that he was a guest in the community and had been there four times prior.. And twice now, that was news to the person I was interacting with. One admitted maybe he had heard that before and forgot it or chose to ignore it.

The fact that these few people I spoke with had condemned this boy to death without knowing crucial details to the event definitely revealed that there was a larger bias or prejudice at work, and the fact that this boy was shot unarmed was justified due to his choice as a black youth to pull up his hood in light rain.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:39 PM

39. "..aren't ALL young Black males just itching to attack any unsuspecting White citizen(s)..."

No.

That's like,....instant jail.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:41 PM

40. Clearly the media and societal and community portrayal of dark skins that does set up....

...the fear factor.

As another anecdote. my parents are Hungarian. They escaped Hungary in 1956. Russians destroying the country from the Left, the Germans from the Right. My mother was 20ish. She clearly remembers the Germnan anti Jewish propoganda machine. Constantly, night after night, news article after article, demonizing Jews. One talking point in particular stuck with her, was the fear of a young woman that would be on the streets after dark, only to be cornered by a jewish man. He only had one thing on his mind and this was indiciative of how Jewish men were demonized.

The fears that a particular 'race' was partial to certain violent behavious, I believe did play into Zimmermans need to shoot first and ask questions later.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:48 PM

41. Having known a lot of racists over the years

Known different kinds of racists in various capacities, I would like to add this one thing to your excellent post: most racists don't know that they're racists.

Most of them are otherwise good, decent people who would never in a million years be racist against anyone they actually knew. They are all, however, terrified of "the other." More importantly, they either lack the courage to actually come out and say, "I hate those N***" or have the self-reflection skills needed to realize why their thinking is fucked up, or even that it is fucked up.

Does this make sense? They're not just ignorant of other races, they're ignorant of themselves.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #41)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 06:53 PM

44. That reference that I made to writing an future essay about Z...

You've just tapped into what the core of my piece would be about, simple self-awareness.

I was just thinking about that just a couple of nights ago.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #41)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:19 PM

51. that isnt racism. its tribalism. nt

 

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Response to galileoreloaded (Reply #51)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 06:40 PM

147. Sounds kind of like a distinction without a difference, honestly.

After all, either one is undeniably harmful, if not destructive.

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #41)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:03 AM

71. +1...n/t

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Response to Nevernose (Reply #41)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:21 AM

73. +1

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:03 PM

46. Those people who nearly side-swiped you

clearly had mental issues because the average person would've at least apologized for it, like you said. To me, they sound like one of those haughty people who regularly hold contempt for those who they feel are beneath them. They are binary thinkers who believe that all of us are up to no good, just because they may have seen a few Black men acting a fool on TV or something.

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #46)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:18 PM

48. It really shocked me to see that level of rudeness in Detroit by those people

This have never been a town for me where that shit was all too common.

Detroit has a much deserved rep of being a rough place, but all in all, rudeness from complete strangers like that is really out of place here.

Not just the fact that they were scared shitless of me for no reason at all.

Had it been any other City Dweller who almost sideswiped me, instead of a couple suburbanites, I'm absolutely sure that we'd at least talk to other, discuss each other's state of being, issue some apologies and after an exchange and go off on each other's way.

At least show some concern, you know?

A few years ago, I had an incident downtown where I pretty much almost collapsed from the heat during a campaign stop by then Sen. Obama.

There was genuine concern by strangers towards me, even a couple of offers of water. It was Detroit as I had always known it.

I was okay and recovered, my back had seized up from a long walk, that's all it was, by the way. But I most certainly appreciated the concern as I took the time to get off of my feet and out of the hot sun.



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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:23 PM

52. yes, it's fear in many cases.

 

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:31 PM

54. " dazzling array of young Black males of Detroit"

Mr. Scorpio:

"The thing is that struck me later, in thought, is that I realized that, in the isolation of their bleached Suburban lifestyle, they hadn't had the opportunity to interact with the dazzling array of young Black males of Detroit , such as myself at the time. Instead they were conditioned to fear us and to be scared shitless of us instead of showing us the common fucking courtesy of even talking to us or offering us an apology for almost wiping us out on our bikes while they stop for a copy of the local paper"
___________________________________________________________________________________________


.............How I got unconditioned of the fear...................................???

I grew up in an all white section of Chicago. Some fear..but some mild understanding of "social Issues" Off to major university then studied to be a teacher.. Assigned to an inner city high school. All Afro American. every height, every size, every shape every color tone.. Took a while. When I taught for awhile, I learned slowly to respect all the kids no matter what they wore, or looked like, or whatever.. Yes, took a while. .I got better and I learned. Some students read well, some did not. Some respected adults and some did not. Some swore, some did not. After a while, the students respected me and they tried the best they could. I tried the best I could too.. That is all anyone could ask for. Was there for 14 years

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 07:38 PM

57. I can relate

Not as a my gender or color, but as a result of my faith.

At a pagan festival in Isle of Wight, VA a local preacher showed up and entered the gates with a loaded gun. The police arrived and dealt him and he told them that he didn't bring the gun to harm us, he brought it in case we tried to harm him. He was that sure that the witches were going to do bad things to him.

On a totally different note: High five to the awesome chief of police who organized volunteers from his force to guard our gate and who brought his own family to the grounds the next day.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Fri Jul 5, 2013, 08:43 PM

64. K&R

So sorry, MrScorpio, for the white man's fear. One would think we're all a bunch of paranoid schizophrenics. We came to this land and all but wiped out Native Americans mostly because they didn't look like us, and yes, because we stole their continent from them. I am so not like those people, though I share their color. My Mamma taught me that we're all God's children, and it stuck. She was a wonderful woman, who loved all peoples of the world. She was the President of our little church's missionary society. She played the piano and was leader of the children's choir. I remember singing "Jesus loves the little children...all the children of the world...red and yellow, black and white...they are precious in his sight...Jesus loves the little children of the world."

As for the GZ trial, I have absolutely no doubt that that man is guilty to the bone of malice. It's like he was a stalker, looking for trouble. He should have gotten back in his car and gone on home to wait on the police to get there. I have to run and get some meds before the drugstore closes, and it's a good thing, as I could go on and on about this.

Just remember: Not all white's are fearful. Not all white's are prejudiced. And I don't think I have to tell you that. Peace and love... ReRe

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 08:34 AM

70. k&r

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:39 AM

78. Excellent post.

Just in case anyone out there doubts the existence of blatant racism in its ugliest form:

http://tinyurl.com/kvtnf4m

Holy shit.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #78)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:55 AM

83. Let's see....

Normally, the insulting nickname is Mr. Dorkio. This time it's "primitive boy." Well, that's pretty edgy, but not necessarily racist.

But, comparing the man in question to a bicycle riding monkey? Gee. How could anyone be so supersensitive to think that's racist?

Well, me: Racist. Fuck.

The hate and hypocrisy roiling at that site is a toxic mix. Anyone who resides there -- God knows runs that cesspool -- is beneath contempt.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #83)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:13 PM

92. ..

Last edited Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Cool by me. Pin it up. Run your racist bullshit up the flag pole.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #78)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:06 PM

105. Frank: "I am not aware we had such a thing..."

http://tinyurl.com/lplv9gl

Same difference.

By the way, Library Lady was one of the five, a fine person.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #78)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 06:56 PM

148. And of course none of these guys would ever have the stones to say any of this

to somebody's face. But such is the nature of the Internet...

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:40 AM

79. From Detroit, and Gratiot Avenue

In fact, was a stockboy at Federal's Dept. Store on about 7 Mile and Gratiot 44 years ago this summer.

Thanks for your excellent observation.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:48 AM

80. I think this post is racist....

...and I would unrec it if I could.

I don't think the guy was scared shitless of you or he wouldn't have exited the car to get a newspaper while leaving his wife alone to fend for herself.

I like you MrScorpio, but I don't like this post. What responsibility did you take upon yourself for running into and possibly denting the guy's car door?

TYY

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #80)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:57 AM

84. -1

What's the opposite of H5?

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #80)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:04 PM

90. Are you trying to be provacative?

... or ...

Do you honestly believe what you wrote?

If you are serious ... I kinda suspect the OP was written about "people" with skewed myopic world views (perhaps, people like you?)

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #90)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:11 PM

91. I don't like racism...

...regardless of the flavor.

Here, let me reverse the roles in the OP for you, and then you can tell me if you sense any racist undertones:

________


I'll never forget the look in their eyes,
they were terrified of me...

This happened to me many years ago and I'll
never forget it... And it explains to me why
some are prone to believe Z's story that he
was attacked by Trayvon Martin and not the
other way around.
Let me start at the beginning: When I was
around 18 years old, not much older than
Trayvon himself, I used ride my bike to and
from Downtown Detroit on the weekends to
visit the Ethnic Festivals of the time. My route
consisted of riding towards Downtown on
Gratiot Ave and returning home on Jefferson
Ave. Those of you who understand the layout
of the city will understand why this is
important.
Well, one day after spending my time at the
festival, I took off on my return trip, heading
east on Jefferson as I usually did. At some
point I was passed on my left by a car, which
pulled over to the side and stopped. Just as I
was about to pass that stopped car to my
right, the driver opened his door right in
front of me. I quickly avoided the door for
the most part, but clipped the edge with my
right pedal. Now, my first reaction wasn't
anger that this person almost took me out
with his car door... I mean, here I am.. I'm
alright and I hadn't bothered to look down at
my pedal, which I discovered later was
smashed. I was a bit in shock at this, the first
thing out of my mouth was, "Are you alright?"
Well, the person who opened his car door in
front of me was this older black man and in
the passenger seat of the car was his older
black wife. Now as I stood there, not angry
mind you... not even being loud, without one
word to me, he got out of his car and walked
over to the newspaper stand that he parked
next to, bought a paper and still without
saying one word to me, he got back into his
car and sped off... Heading west on Jefferson,
ostensibly to the safe, Black People confines
of one the Projects or whatever.
Once he did that, I took a moment to reflect
on what just happened. Living in Detroit most
of my life, I hadn't had much experience in
dealing with strange Black urbanites...
But to me, this was really telling.
That man and his wife were scared shitless
that I was about to do something to them...
Harm them in some way. I saw it in their
EYES, which spoke to me louder than any
words. Committing an act of violence was the
furthest thing from my mind, as I said my
first reaction was to express concern about
them. I was raised to respect my elders and
all that and I wasn't harmed. I would have
at least liked an apology for almost side-
swiping me... But I didn't even get a whoop
tie-doo out of these people.
I thought, "How rude," as I saw them drive
off.
But not just how rude they were, but
genuinely frightened that I would harm them.
Perhaps they were feeling guilty for being in
the wrong for almost side-swiping me... But,
then I thought, if they felt that way one of
them would at least had bothered to tell me
that they were sorry for doing that. Again,
their EYES and their SILENCE spoke volumes.
Living out there in The Projects, I would
hazard a guess that any time they went into
the city, their first concern would be to be on
the look out for any whiteys who would accost
them out of the blue. Now just to let you
know, I'd known plenty of Blacks who lived
IN the City and never once had any of these
people ever imparted to me that they were
scared to walk around Detroit while Black.
This was the early Eighties and crossing the
suburban borders was then a tricky exercise.
But here I was, looking at a couple of scared
Black urbanites leave me flabbergasted in
their exhaust.
The thing is that struck me later, in thought,
is that I realized that, in the isolation of their
dyed black urban lifestyle, they hadn't had
the opportunity to interact with the dazzling
array of young White males of Detroit , such
as myself at the time. Instead they were
conditioned to fear us and to be scared
shitless of us instead of showing us the
common fucking courtesy of even talking to
us or offering us an apology for almost
wiping us out on our bikes while they
stopped for a copy of the local paper.
Perhaps, they were under the belief that we
young White males are predisposed to
committing acts of violence upon their frail
Black bodies at the drop of the hat? That
fear, of course, impelled them to be the
silent assholes that they were.

Snip

After all, aren't ALL young White males just
itching to attack any unsuspecting Black
citizen at the drop of a hat? It happens all of
the time, they say. We White males are
dangerous, even more so when in the
presence of Black people...

Snip

But anyway, if anything is clear, it's that fear
blinds people to a lot of things around them.

________



TYY

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #91)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:18 PM

93. Bless your heart, you honestly have no idea, do you?

Not a clue. You poor thing.

Someone supplied a link the Conservative Cave a few posts down thread. Do you realize that you are stating (verbatim) what the knuckle draggers have?

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #93)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:25 PM

96. Why do you hang out at CC? ...

...and, did you seriously just compare me to a CC Knuckle dragger?

Bless YOUR heart. You have yourself one of those really nice days!

TYY

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #96)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:36 PM

98. Oh you are just darling

Check the link out down thread. I was as shocked as you were to find that you quoted a post there verbatim.

No doubt, just a coincidence!

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #98)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:16 PM

100. You'll have to provide a link to the ”verbatim” post...

...since I don't hang out at CC.

TYY

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #98)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:29 PM

103. The thing is about these guys...

... they are narcissistic in every sense of the word, and it is their undoing. They ridicule us behind a secure wall, banning those who dare arrive at their hive and confront them. (Two lifetime bans here, thank you very much.) So, to ensure that they get as much mileage as they can from their "moling", they cannot resist going back to CC and linking to their own posts here at DU. A couple of them have the self discipline to avoid this, but most are too self-adoring and too weak to resist. And I was really amused by the mallet head who posted a defense of a CC post, and then immediately linked it back at CC. Too funny.

And still, somehow, they feel superior.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #103)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:13 PM

106. Oh, I know

I became bored with the stupidity and quit playing

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #106)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 02:25 PM

108. +1

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #91)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:24 PM

111. If I had written my narrative in such a way, the way you just did, of course it would sound racist

However, that's not way I wrote now, was it?

I don't know where you're from, but if you had bothered to take note of the other Michiganders and posters who have some familiarity of this area, the racial and geographic politics of our recent past, then you probably wouldn't have taken your sweet time to re-write my OP into something that doesn't even come close to anything that has any basis in any reality.



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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #111)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:37 PM

113. Why do you have to be so condescending? ...

Re: ”... then you probably wouldn't have taken your sweet time to re-write my OP into something that doesn't even come close to anything that has any basis in any reality.”

See, now that's interesting. You think I rewrote your OP, when in fact, all I did was paste your exact words with 'white' changed to 'black', 'darkie' changed to 'whitey', 'east' changed to 'west' and 'Pointe' changed to 'Projects'.

You're inadvertently making my point for me.

TYY

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #113)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:46 PM

115. What you did was re-write it in such a way to fit your own unrealistic supposition

Are you going to lecture me on the horrors of "reverse-racism" next?

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #115)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:49 PM

116. I didn't rewrite anything. They were your words.

TYY

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #116)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:53 PM

118. By changing what you did, you revised the entire tenor and implications of the narrative

I only take ownership of what I wrote in the OP and I would never write it in such the way it was in your revision.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #118)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 05:00 PM

121. My revision...

...replaced the words 'white' with 'black', 'darkie' with 'whitey', 'east' with 'west' and 'Pointe' with 'Projects'. Otherwise, it was a straight cut and paste of your OP.

So, what are you saying? That black racism is bad but white racism is ok?

TYY

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #121)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 06:00 PM

124. I was wondering how long it would take reverse-racism to show up.

Anyway, it's clear to me that you're not apprised of the racial and geographic politics of the Metro Area of the time.

Just after the riots, Detroit experienced an accelerated period of White Flight to the surrounding suburbs. The northern border of Detroit, known as Eight Mile, represented a start dividing line of segregation between the most Black residents of the city versus their mostly White counterparts of suburbia.

For much of time, the suburbs represented an exclusion zone against Black residency. Redlining, police oppression, even White vigilanteism occurred against Blacks who were caught in certain suburban neighborhoods by their fearful residents.

On the other hand, Whites could come into town for work and play at anytime without any fear of exclusionary reprisals. Instead, their concerns were mostly fear based as potential victims of crime.

Now, if you'd ever take the review the layout of the city, you'll note that Metro Detroit resembles a kind of funnel, in which surface avenues and major highways facilitate transit between the city center and the adjacent suburbs.

I make it clear in noting that the incident happened on one of those particular transit corridors, which direction that they were traveling in and the implications of what kind of people who would live in those particular suburban areas.

Now, by changing my narrative where Black is White and Up is Down, it completely misrepresents the meaning behind what I wrote.

White people have ALWAYS had freedom to roam Detroit at will. You'd NEVER see Detroit Cops pulling over White drivers IN the City for ostensibly driving around the wrong neighborhoods, as you would have seen suburban cops pulling over Black drivers in THEIR neighborhoods during this period.

You'd NEVER see Black city residents excluding Whites from Detroit, as many Whites took it upon themselves to move out into the 'burbs in droves.

In the City, Blacks had absolutely no reason to regard Whites as objects of fear and suspicion, whether they come from the 'burbs or from the City itself. Across Eight Mile, if you were Black at that time, then you were closely watched by Whites and some would even scream epithets at us out of their car windows, which actually happened to me out there on more than one occasion.

Simply by switching things around, as you did, it doesn't resemble anything approaching what those conditions were. This role reversal is just a fantasy contrived by you.

IF this so-called Black racism that you're talking about actually existed here, it would be reflected in the interaction between Black and White City dwellers and the mostly White residents of the suburbs. But it didn't.

Which only says to me that only thing that you're doing here, by engaging in this rhetorical exercise, is simply doing the same things that others would do when they're seeking to diminish the sordid history of racial politics in this country through a tactic of accusing a Black person of engaging in so-called "reverse-racism".

It doesn't work that way.



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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #124)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 06:35 PM

126. I'm not trying to diminish...

...anything about your experience with racism as a black man in America. I'm simply trying to point out to you that by using racist, ageist hyperbole in your posts, you perpetuate the racial divide.

I'm on your side. I hate racism in all its forms and I have no tolerance for racists. My exercise, as you call it, was to show that the words you use are racist and ageist. If a white person at DU were to create an OP using words like ”darkies” or ”whiteys” or ”bleached” or ”frail black bodies” to embellish their story, their post would be hidden and they would ultimately and rightfully be shown the door.

My post was never meant to upset you. I just wish you could hear yourself. My experience doesn't diminish yours in the slightest but racist, ageist comments don't feel good to anyone.

TYY

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #126)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 06:38 PM

127. Well, I don't feel the same way

Which is why I wrote it as I did.

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #126)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 07:07 PM

149. I just don't get where you're coming from at all. Sorry.

Some people try to claim a certain "objectivity" or "fairness" that doesn't exist in this world and never has. Which is how you get, for instance, College Republicans calling affirmative action "reverse racism" - which is a view that's completely out of balance with reality, with no sense of proportion or perspective.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #115)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 05:38 PM

123. I have no way of knowing how old you are ...?

I am 51 (born 1962, damn it turns out I am old). I grew up in Metro Detroit. My experience was different in many ways than yours and the same, in as many ways ... I grew up north of 8 Mile Road (Macomb County). Anyone that lived where we did (Metro Detroit) in the late 1960s, 1970s and 1980s is being dishonest if they deny or downplay your narrative. It should not be remembered with any fondness (of course) but denying our history dooms us to repeat it.

Sadly, the Metro Detroit of my youth was one of the most segregated areas in the country. It wasn't a legislative segregation ... we all just lived where we did largely based on our ethnicity/ heritage. The media, local politicians etc. perpetuated the myth of Detroit (and its residents). We never (or more accurately rarely) ever really got to know each other in those days. This made the myths and stereotypes easier to perpetuate. I do not say this to excuse the behaviors, simply to explain them.

The white couple in your narrative could have been any of my friends parents or grandparents. I knew these people as they existed then and as they exist now. These same folk would never utter a racial epithet, they support civil rights (up to a point) and they will tell you 'I am not a racist' ... but the fear of the "other" remains (and I make no mistake: it IS racism)

Anyone that denies your narrative is either a liar or a fool (noting the terms are not mutually exclusive).



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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #123)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 06:02 PM

125. I'm 51 myself...

And I know that you know exactly what we're talking about here.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #125)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 07:57 PM

128. We both know where we have been (and exactly what is being discussed)

We can't know where we are going, but (as a human being) I am hopeful!

Metro Detroit has changed (not enough, but the changes are significant) and again, I am hopeful!

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #128)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 08:24 PM

131. Since I've returned to Michigan, I've been living in Macomb County

This area is a world of difference since what it used to be 30 years ago.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #131)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 08:25 PM

132. Me too

I returned in 2000

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Response to TeeYiYi (Reply #80)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:40 PM

114. The funny thing is that guy never gave me the opportunity to do such a thing...

AS he never said word to me.

Just to reiterate, I said that I was dealing with a degree of shock at that point, having almost been laid waste by the guy's car door. I don't doubt that, he too, was also dealing with the shock of the moment in his own way.

I'm quite sure that he wasn't thinking as much as he was reacting. Having parked the car in the first place, he was following through on his previous intentions of getting the paper.

Where I was was in front of his car as he got out, left door open as a form of makeshift barrier, walked around the back of his car to the stand, buy his paper and then jump back into his car before speeding off.

I was waiting for them to say something, anything, in response to my question if they were alright.

Seeing their demeanor and how their immediate action afterwards was to speed off in the direction of the 'burbs, I really can't see how I could have to anything other than conclusion to which I did.


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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 10:53 AM

82. Thoughtful post to try and see the justifier's point of view, but

Z lived in a multiethnic/multicultural area, was training in MMA, carrying a weapon, law enforcement training, and asked by 911 to break off pursuit. What part of this indicates that he wasn't completely in control of the development of the situation? Minimal case for manslaughter, anything more will rest with how the lawyers handle their respective cases.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:02 AM

85. Mr. Scorpio: Question for you about the OP

As I read the article, you are not portraying the couple as racist but simply afraid due to their ignorance. They saw you and your anger, and they slid into to some level of fear based of people with whom they are unfamiliar.

Am I correct in this?

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #85)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:50 PM

117. I really wasn't angry

I didn't get angry until they left me in their dust.

But I did see their fear, for which I didn't think that I gave them any justification for.

But I agree with the rest of your assessment.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #117)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:54 PM

119. Thank you.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 11:14 AM

86. Your story was re-posted on ConservativeCave.com

I was googling the quotes from your story, looking for the location of the thread you had quoted, when I came across this.

They repeatedly refer to you as a "primitive". I thought that was just their usual racism, but looking through the site, I see that's their pet name for liberals. The irony is staggering.

Oh, and don't be fooled by their use of a picture of a monkey with a wrecked bike. Nothing racist there, I assure you.

http://www.conservativecave.com/index.php?topic=88668.0

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Response to Courtesy Flush (Reply #86)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:18 PM

94. Gee.

This exact post was found and linked at the same cesspool the second it was posted here.

Must be a coincidence.

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Response to Courtesy Flush (Reply #86)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:27 PM

97. Yawn. nt

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Response to Courtesy Flush (Reply #86)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:28 PM

102. Like most racists they pretend white people do not

get nervous about driving in urban black neighborhoods. Every white person knows this is true.

and of course in their view Mr. Scorpio had to be the one in the wrong - in their analysis, he is the one who damaged their car - of course! And the man was just startled to see someone there (of any color!) or didn't notice. And his getting the newspaper proves he was not afraid!

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Response to treestar (Reply #102)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:55 PM

120. I really don't have any interest in the opinions of racist trolls

They've wasted far too much of my time in the past

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 12:55 PM

99. Doesn't it drive you nuts that you can't talk common sense into people like that, Mr. Scorpio?

I admire that you continue to do so. I guess it's the only way to make people stop and THINK.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:21 PM

101. and to me that's ignorance

and ignorance is no excuse under the law...the only thing it might change is intent or pre meditation

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 01:39 PM

104. I scare people. I'm white 6'0 185 lb bearded and don't smile much

And I've got a huge opera voice.

Once they get to know me people say they think I'm mad at them all the time.

If Zimmerman is afraid of his own shadow and sees me in a dark alley he's gonna shoot first

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:13 PM

110. Hello

I am an older white male who grew up in Memphis in the 60's. I lived in suburbia during segregation era, which turned to integration
era. Most of my friends were racists, I knew it. My best friend was never a racist, but another friend was. When integration came,
my high school was integrated by hiring one black teacher. My friend's mother railed against it, and we were assigned to her homeroom class. I lost a lot of respect for them then.

Later, due to family circumstances I lived w/ Grandma near Orange Mound, now one of the poorest slums in America. It was bad even then. I rode my bike, walked, went to the Katz drugstore to play pinball. I was wary, but not scared. After walking through Orange Mound after midnight one night, I lost all fear. Why? I minded my own business, didn't suspect anyone and treated everyone w/ due respect.

I am still more comfortable in black areas than white suburbia. My experiences in white suburbia are not as nice. I tell my wife and friend that I would rather break down on the predominantly black area. Why? I feel someone there would help me, whereas I find all white areas to be suspicious of strangers, even caucasians.

Fear is what motivated Geo. Zimmerman, fear and suspicion that all blacks are criminals. It is too bad, but true. We whites deny ourselves a world of people to close ourselves off from others.

It is a shame!

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Response to Steviehh (Reply #110)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 05:00 PM

122. Thanks, Bro

Welcome to DU

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:33 PM

112. Fear, yes I raise my hands up to it.

I'm putting the Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman situation aside here, as this is irrelevant to my reply.

I will admit up front, that I afraid of African-Americans. And Southern Asian and East Asian, and Europeans, and Latin Americans, and people from Scotland, or from the North of England, or even from Kent. I'm afraid of my next door neighbours!

Mr. Scorpio, I'm focusing on the last sentence: "It's that fear blinds people to a lot of things around them". Again I agree with you there too. When there is a sense of fear and dread in a person - the usual response mechanism is "Fight or Flight". Those people who sideswiped you on that bike definitely had fear and their reaction was to "flight" - to get away. Others do the opposite and fight it out.

Quoting one line of FDR's Inaugural address - the famous one: "So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is...fear itself — nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance." Taking this single sentence on its own is the best answer to the fear that people have when confronting unknown and unusual people. I feel that this is a lesson I and everyone else can learn from - to fight the fear emotion itself and advance. Not to fight the thing that one may be afraid about. If that fight is fought, it may only bring a temporary victory.

IMO we need to remember FDR's sentence from his inaugural address. Pinch a bit from the Bible (I say Luke 10:27), other things from here and there, and there is the recipe for life itself. Don't be afraid, love your neighbours, love God (for theists only!), and be curious. Never stop learning.

Thanks for posting. I know my reply is a bit rambly and make not that much sense... but to me it does make sense.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 07:59 PM

129. If the OP is suggesting

Trayvon Martin's murder somehow was connected to GZ's fear of Black males
that seems almost kind.

I believe, not so humbly, that GZ had trained, fantasized and positioned himself
in the community in such a way as to fulfill a murderous fantasy. A career in
law enforcement thankfully was no longer a possibility. He became involved with
the community watch group which gave him an excuse and opportunity to cruise
his neighborhood while armed and prepared to engage with the right victim. I believe
him to be a hateful racist, but if for some reason he was not, a young Black male
would garner the support he would need to walk away without question. We watched
him do exactly that. Sanford's history of racial injustice within the community and
police department insured he would walk using the "Stand Your Ground" law as his
legal out.

Trayvon was an innocent kid, GZ is a predator. He calmly fed the police his story
and later his brother and he cunningly manipulate the media and public opinion
knowing the underlying racism in the community, state and country would work
to his advantage. If he walks out of that courtroom at the end of the trial, it will
be a revolting miscarriage of justice. That's what I fear. Fear a system that could
be so broken.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest. I believe it to be true to my core.

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Response to zeeland (Reply #129)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 07:12 PM

150. Given Zimmerman's history of aggressive behavior - domestic violence, assaulting a cop -

I don't find that scenario farfetched at all.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 08:13 PM

130. The fault is in their minds, their upbringing and their culture. NOT YOUR SKIN COLOUR!

 

Yes fear is a blinder, but why do they fear?

I believe a good part of that fear boils down to their thinking how they would behave if the situation was reversed.

All around the world, and all through history, the heavy hand has been used to keep the subjugated, populaces, congregations, "lesser" people of all stripe in their proper place. And fear (of loss of control) causes that hand to become heavier when the controlled start to wake up and question their situation.

And what comes next is never pretty.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 09:19 PM

133. Excellent points, all.

Terrible but true. You want to talk scared? There's not a black or even hispanic person in this flyspeck MidWestern town where I retired, but most of the people are xenophobic as geese and some are actually afraid of ME - a nearly harmless little old lady, pale as cauliflower, because I descended upon them w/o warning or permission and I'm a damnYankee from the dreaded North East, and I've been seen wearing Barack Obama teeshirts!

Although I consider myself a mere socialist, to them that reads downright Stalinesque (I actually liked Trotsky better, although I'm not about to tell them that). Well, I have to admit that most people here couldn't correctly name a real Red even from history because the only word they know is commie. Maybe one or two would recognize Putin at most. No kidding, one guy cornered me with a harangue about world affairs but declared modestly that his girlfriend was the true intellectual of the two because - drum roll, please - she almost made it through the 11th grade!

In short, so many people trapped (although they don't know it) in isolated enclaves anywhere live in stark raving terror that the 'others' are massing for an all-out assault on them. If it sounds crazy to you and me, that's because it IS crazy. I shudder to think what it must be like to live their lives, but I'm also acutely aware it makes some of them very, very dangerous. No need to damn them to hell, though, because they're already there.

Lately I've been feeling compelled to say something nice about the more decent types, because there are actually a few that I've come to know and care about. But even with them, this cockeyed world view is bone deep, and I tend to think they have only begun to be a little nicer to me because they're a bit ashamed of how many of the others have behaved. And yet that still doesn't mean they think straight. As Steinbeck said, even the poorest don't realize they're abused by the class system, and if you dare even hint at such heresy they'll knock you down for allegedly disrespecting them. They work hard, dammit, and they think you're calling them all lazy loafers because that's the way they've been taught to feel. They know they've been screwed, but they don't understand who's doing it. I've had people start hysterical screaming at me when I have no idea what set them off, because I'm still in the process of decoding their true language.

Well, sometimes I do know what stirred them up because I deliberately questioned their unassailable superiority, but lots of times it does come as a total surprise to me. What does asking the most mundane question in the world, maybe about the weather even, have to do with "I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW MY HUSBAND WORKS HARD!" The only hope of halfway understanding these people is to realize how stark raving terrified they are of a world that's changing rapidly before them and likely to leave them even farther behind than they already are. That goes for the rich as well as the poor since the former are convinced the latter are out to take them down.

Well, maybe they're not entirely wrong on that one.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 04:17 PM

143. Got Attitude?

"That fear, of course, impelled them to be the silent assholes that they were".

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Response to gussmith (Reply #143)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 04:38 PM

144. you forgot the part where his first reaction was to see if THEY were okay? of course you did.

they fucked up and almost hurt him by not looking what they were doing. silent assholes sounds right to me.

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Response to gussmith (Reply #143)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 05:18 PM

145. A helpful piece of advice for you since you haven't been posting a lot

It would help your ability to form cogent arguments about our text messages if you would simply read through the entirety of whatever you're replying to before you actually write your replies.

Hopefully, that's not too difficult of a concept for you, but take it from me, it gets much better with practice.

Happy DUing!

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Jul 7, 2013, 05:32 PM

146. great post

this discussion in this thread was refreshing. Very enlightening. And no I didn't go to that CC site and won't They are, to me, the typical ignorant and backward amerikkkans that cause a lot of needless hate and suspicion. Bravo to you. I'm staying away from zippy the murderous pig conversations because I truly get disgusted with the 'progressive' and 'liberal' zimpig apologists/logicists on this site. What will be will be. I really enjoyed this particular thread today.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 12:53 AM

152. I just had a co-worker say to me

"a black man is kinda like a doberman"

This co-worker is black and I was asking him if he could handle being left alone to manage the kids at this event. I expect that he was, because he is a parent. My other worker, though, had previously said that he could not handle the kids, and wanted to stay away from them for fear that he would smack one of them. As supervisor, I had to be sure the reception would be without serious incidents.

But he seemed to like the idea that people would avoid messing with him.

A storiy I would relate. One Sunday morning I was biking around, intending to visit a rummage sale. I stopped a the United Methodist church in Bloom City for perhaps a bathroom break and maybe to get some water. Church was not for a couple of hours. I had a couple of burly farmers come up and tell me that I was NOT welcome to attend services there, that I might scare the old ladies (ha, as if). I am not sure if I had long hair, or was unshaven, or both. Not everybody is friendly or welcoming. Not even to a small town white guy.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #152)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 01:02 AM

153. Well, at least they gave you the common courtesy of actually talking to you, did they not?

Some of us other bike riders never got that at all.

I've really never had a high opinion of small town living at all.

I'm a big city guy, I've always preferred big city types to all others. The bigger, the better.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 04:06 AM

159. I don't know about racist but GZ is creepy ass coward. For sure!

Mind you, I'm a lily white female who was all of 5"3 and 115lbs at the time of the incident I'm going to tell you about.

When I was younger I used to act as the unofficial neighborhood watch. Why? Because I had chronic insomnia and used to try to walk it off so I figured, kill two birds with one stone. Be out walking, watching my neighbors places at 3:00 AM. (I was also the person who dug out the fire hydrant, picked up stray litter, did free yard work for the elderly ladies next door, cleared the storm drains, etc., so everybody knew me.)

Then I got multiple sclerosis and I couldn't do my little patrols anymore. One night at about 10:00 PM, our street starting filling with angry Latino men. There were 10 to 15 of them. They were all unfamiliar to me. They were making a hell of a racket in Spanish that I couldn't understand. Then they started the pushing and the shoving. You know? The prelude to young men fighting. Nobody went outside so I dragged my wobbly MS ridden unarmed body out to the sidewalk.

I started waving my arms and shouting, "Hey! Hey guys! Calm it down. This is a quiet neighborhood and we like it that way."

Horror of horrors, what happened next? They started getting quiet. They started moving away. Somewhere between 10 to 15 guys backing down to a tiny female. I must have brass ovaries. Meanwhile, Z is walking around with a gun, upset over 1 black boy visiting his neighborhood. He stalks, chases and shoots 1 unarmed kid. Screams COWARD louder than anything else I could say. Oh he's guilty alright.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Jul 8, 2013, 09:53 AM

161. I've thought about your post all weekend.

We have a 24 hour news network that spews hate, lies and fear on a daily basis and many white people lap it up. An actual news network giving corporate sponsored aid and comfort to a large part of America that are white "Christian" racists, open support of the xenophobic fears whipped up by politicians and preachers all around the country.
I'm continually shocked that Americans can be so gullible and fearful.

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