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Mon Jul 1, 2013, 05:46 AM

"individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is"

If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. I think conservatism is really a misnomer just as liberalism is a misnomer for the liberals–if we were back in the days of the Revolution, so-called conservatives today would be the Liberals and the liberals would be the Tories. The basis of conservatism is a desire for less government interference or less centralized authority or more individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is.
Ronald Reagan

http://reason.com/archives/1975/07/01/inside-ronald-reagan

So if you think libertarians are all about freedom and you are falling for the Ron/Rand Paul BS. Well the Gipper dug them too. Because they agreed that freedom meant sticking it to those "welfare queens" and those "strapping young bucks" on foodstamps

http://reaganandracism.blogspot.com/

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Reply "individual freedom and this is a pretty general description also of what libertarianism is" (Original post)
arely staircase Jul 2013 OP
Fumesucker Jul 2013 #1
arely staircase Jul 2013 #2
Fumesucker Jul 2013 #3
arely staircase Jul 2013 #5
Fumesucker Jul 2013 #7
arely staircase Jul 2013 #10
Fumesucker Jul 2013 #13
arely staircase Jul 2013 #15
quaker bill Jul 2013 #9
LostOne4Ever Jul 2013 #4
arely staircase Jul 2013 #6
LostOne4Ever Jul 2013 #8
arely staircase Jul 2013 #17
riqster Jul 2013 #11
LeftishBrit Jul 2013 #12
arely staircase Jul 2013 #16
ramparta Jul 2013 #14
arely staircase Jul 2013 #18

Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 05:50 AM

1. Oh bullshit

Conservatives love them some government power, they'd have every woman in the country wearing a chastity belt if they had their way unfettered.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 05:53 AM

2. and libertarians love them some magic of the marketplace

no food stamps, no social security no nothin' for the poor.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #2)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 05:56 AM

3. What does that have to do with conservatism and conservatives? n/t

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:04 AM

5. what does being against programs for the poor have to do with conservatism?

really? That is the conservative/libertarian idea of freedom.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:17 AM

7. The entire OP is bullshit because it's based on a bullshit premise

What part of that do you fail to understand?



Conservatism is a tribal and reactive philosophy, they like or dislike things because either liberals other conservatives like or dislike them and then they make up some rationale for why they do.

A lot of liberals are evidently like this too I've found later in life after wasting too much of it arguing with people who have no reasonably concrete set of beliefs, might as well bail a boat with a colander.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #7)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:22 AM

10. so how would libertarians and reagan disagree on say; food stams, medicare?

other than the libertarians are probably even more hostile to those programs than he - all in the name of freedom.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:26 AM

13. The OP was about a love of freedom by conservatives

Such does not exist, they don't love freedom.

What do food stamps and medicare have to do with the OP?

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:47 AM

15. I have since clarified it with an edit

The point was that the Reagan idea of freedom and the libertarian one overlap quite a bit. the quote is from an interview Reagan gave to a libertarian magazine when he ran for president the first time.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:22 AM

9. Only if they kept the keys.

They do seem to have a thing for mistresses....

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:01 AM

4. Mega-Bullshit.

The word heart should not even be in the same sentence as the word conservative.

Conservatives do not give a RAT's ASS about liberty or freedom. They hate women, minorities, and religious liberty with a passion and want to see the poor enslaved to the rich. They oppose a woman's right to their body, minority rights to anything, and want to turn this country into a totalitarian theonomy.

The founding fathers were anything but friendly toward corporation and had them greatly limited, and SUPPORTED seperation of church and state. Liberals oppose imperialism, authoritarianism, colonialism and exceptionalism. The author's analogies are horrible.

AND FUCK RONALD REAGAN UP HIS FUCKING ASS.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #4)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:06 AM

6. exactly - and ron paul too

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #6)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:21 AM

8. Ron and Rand Paul

Are two faced lying hypocrite scum who care nothing for liberty and the only freedom they support is the freedom to exploit the masses and to discriminate against minorities.

They are worse scum then Reagan. They fake caring about peoples liberties to lure young people into the right wing and when you actually examine their views you see they could care less. They are racist, homophobic, women hating bigots who only care about money.

If they gave one shit about freedom and liberty they would be celebrating the death of DOMA, opposing anti-abortionist legislation, and trying to reduce the size of the military. If they actually cared about people they would fight for the poor and against corporation.

They aren't libertarians, they are just greedy conservative assholes liars.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #8)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 07:02 AM

17. Libertarian Party Platform - some nuggets

Economy
Libertarians want all members of society to have abundant opportunities to achieve economic success. A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.

Labor
We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.

Education
Education is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality, accountability and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Recognizing that the education of children is a parental responsibility, we would restore authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. Parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:23 AM

11. "conservative" is NewSpeak.

When applied as a modern political label, anyway. What "conservatives" believe today matches the definition in no way, shape, or form.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:25 AM

12. I think that the real problem...

is an increasing tendency to imply that civil libertarianism is positively related to economic libertarianism, with the aim of increasing support for the latter. At the somewhat milder end of the scale you get the idea that it's even POSSIBLE to be 'socially liberal but economically conservative' - if you are economically right-wing, then the policies that you support are inevitably socially oppressive toward people below a certain income. At the more extreme end of the scale, you get the complete rejection of the social safety net; the attitude that healthcare and even emergency services such as firefighting are privileges to be earned or paid for, rather than a right; and support for what is essentially the definition of a 'failed state': the sort of unregulated free-for-all where survival depends on being strong or lucky.

In the UK, we used to use the term 'libertarian' to mean 'civil libertarian'. Economic libertarianism was known as 'laissez faire economics' or sometimes 'classical liberalism'. It is only quite recently that 'libertarian' in this country started to be used in its right-wing economic sense. So the term does not inevitably have that implication, though nowadays it frequently does. As the saying goes, too often 'libertarian' is used to mean 'right-winger who likes to smoke pot'.



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Response to LeftishBrit (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:53 AM

16. In the US a libertarian is one who is economically as well as socially libertarian

there is even a Libertarian party that embraces this ideology as well as small-l libertarian Republicans like Ron and Rand Paul. In America, one who is a civil libertarian but not so in the economic realm is called a liberal or a progressive..

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 06:31 AM

14. divine right of kings

 

The founding fathers were freethinking enlightenment liberals. Any other interpretation is false.

Conservatives believed that the king was their rightful ruler. This fantasy continues in their current delusion that republican presidents are anointed by god, while clinton, carter, and obama are illegitimate.

edited to correct spelling.

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Response to ramparta (Reply #14)

Mon Jul 1, 2013, 11:15 AM

18. that is correct

i don't agree with reagan that conservatives and libertarians are freedom fighters, only that cons and libertarians have the same notion of freedom when it comes economics, labor rights and the environment.

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