Did Zimmerman self inflict his wounds?

[Hugabear]

Follow me on this. Zimmerman confronts Trayvon, pushes him around, knocks him down, hits him a few times, then shoots him. After all, he doesn't want this one 'getting away'.

Realizing he needs to make it look like his life was in danger, he bangs his own head against the concrete to bloody the back of his head.

This would match the evidence so far. There was absolutely no physical evidence on Trayvon's hands were bruised, or had been used in the manner the defense is saying.

Zimmerman had several minutes between the shooting and when the police arrived at the scene. Plenty of time for him to stage his 'self defense' story.

[DrDan]

1. one obvious problem - it appears Zimmerman was on the ground being hit, not TM

according to the testimony

other than that - self-inflicted is quite a stretch

[notadmblnd]

8. He would have had to have been sitting up for the blood to run down the back of his head

like it did. I think it's quite possible he ran into a small tree branch.

[premium]

74. Not true

I dealt with head injuries often during my career and the blood will follow the natural curvature of the skull whether sitting up or lying down.

[brush]

10. According to one witness who had to recant

his early statement to police that he saw TM on top raining down blows onto ol' zimmy.

He had to admit that he had not actually seen Martin throw any punches. This witness obviously lied. His testimony was just the opposite of the woman who testified early in the trial that she saw zimmerman on top and Martin screaming.

Pls use you head. If Martin was "raining down punches" his hands and knuckles would have all kinds of bruises from the beating they just administered.

Not so. There were no bruises on Martin's hands, or even dna from zimmy.

Also remember that there was no blood on the sidewalk that zimmerman claimed his head was being bash repeatedly against (that sidewalk bashing story is what I call a stretch — no concussion, no loss of consciouness, no cracked skull, no evidence of wooziness, 30 minutes later in the police video he was walking around fine with no ill effects of having his head repeatedly bashed against concrete. IMHO, that didn't happen).

[DrDan]

15. no need for personal insults - here is what Good had to say yesterday

Good said the person on top during the fight was wearing a black top like the black hoodie sweatshirt Martin had on that night, and the person on the bottom was wearing red. Zimmerman was wearing a similar color that night.

Good said it seemed like the person on the bottom was yelling for help. Good said he saw the person on top “straddling” the person on the bottom and the person on top was moving their hands in a downward striking motion that looked like what he called a “ground and pound,” a term associated with MMA or mixed martial arts fighting.

“It looked like that position was a ground-and-pound-type position, but I couldn’t tell 100% that there were actually fists hitting faces,” Good said.

http://wqad.com/2013/06/28/witness-puts-zimmerman-on-bottom-of-fight/

**********************************************

of course TM might not have thrown punches, but this witness suggests TM was on top, not Z.

[hedgehog]

18. So Martin felt his life in danger, was defending himself and was shot.

Who set up the confrontation?

[DrDan]

21. not going to jump to a conclusion until I hear more testimony

I know that runs counter to the groupthink here - but I have not heard second degree murder proven yet

[shadowrider]

71. You and I don't agree on much regarding firearms, but on this we're in 100% agreement n/t

[Hugabear]

20. Except the physical evidence doesn't match up

Where were the bruises on his hands?

[DrDan]

22. can't answer that - but there is certainly more testimony coming up, isn't there

[CatWoman]

36. yet you keep harping and clinging to Good's testimony

even tho at least two others testified differently.

[DrDan]

38. harping? did I ever deny their testimony?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

48. If you insist that other posters stick to the facts, that's going to slow things down.

[brush]

24. An earlier female witness said that the larger figure was on top and got off after the shot

Some one is either confused or lying.

Seems like Good might be the one confused, or lying, since he had to recant his "raining down blows" comment he made to the police.

And you can't get around the fact that there were no bruises on Martin's hands of knuckles.

Ever been in a fist fight? Believe me, your hands don't fair so well, especially if you're raining down blows. There would be bruises, possible broken knuckle bones, gashes from hitting teeth. There would definitely be evidence of a fight.

And there was none of zimmy's dna on Martin's hands, yet zimmy had the bloody nose and head. Blood is definitely dna. Where is that evidence on Martin's body?

There was none. Ol' zimmy may have done some self-inflicting to cover his ass for killing the kid so he could claim stand your ground.

[DrDan]

27. this whole self-infliction theory is so bizarre - has ANYONE (other than here) suggested anything

close to that?

[Hugabear]

34. If Trayvon didn't inflict those wounds, they had to get there some other way

And there is absolutely no evidence that Trayvon inflicted those wounds. In fact, the evidence strongly suggests that he DIDN'T.

[DrDan]

40. hence the need to let the testimony proceed - don't you think?

[Travis_0004]

131. The only problem is there were several witnesses who looked outside after the gunshot

There wasn't any time to bash his head upon concrete after the gunshot, if he did, a witness would have reported it.

[ecstatic]

155. I find the repeated attempts to excuse Zimmerman's crime bizarre

Trayvon should not have been killed. PERIOD

[notadmblnd]

167. George himself says he tripped or fell

Personally, I think his face met with a tree branch. Here's a link to Georges re-enactment of the murder.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023129223

[B2G]

30. Forensic evidence up next week

I think we can wait that long, don't you?

[DrDan]

33. absolutely - and I think that is entirely appropriate

way too many folks here have it all figured out - even with testimony remaining

[yardwork]

73. Good and other witnesses who are members of the condo association have a conflict of interest.

It is greatly in their interest for Zimmerman to be acquitted. If Zimmerman is found guilty, then the HOA is going to face lots more lawsuits.

Very strong financial incentive for witnesses who are members of the HOA to help Zimmerman get off. Just saying.

[Adsos Letter]

87. But wasn't the president of the HOA at the time called as a prosecution witness?

Aren't all of the witnesses members of the HOA?

[yardwork]

91. All these witnesses have been called by the prosecution.

That doesn't change the fact that they all have a conflict of interest.

[Adsos Letter]

94. You're right.

Confused thinking on my part. Good's testimony would be the only one (I think) inconsistent with self-interest on the part of the HOA, if I'm understanding it correctly.

[yardwork]

134. Any testimony helpful toward Zimmerman is helpful to the HOA.

If Zimmerman is convicted, the HOA and all it's members become even more vulnerable to lawsuits by Martin's family.

That gives all the witnesses associated with the condo association a very good incentive to testify in ways that support Zimmerman.

[pintobean]

137. The Martin family and HOA have already settled

Trayvon Martin's parents settle wrongful-death claim
Homeowners association is thought to have paid more than $1 million
April 5, 2013|By Rene Stutzman, Orlando Sentinel

SANFORD — Trayvon Martin's parents have settled a wrongful-death claim for an amount thought to be more than $1 million against the homeowners association of the Sanford subdivision where their teenage son was killed.

Their attorney, Benjamin Crump, filed that paperwork at the Seminole County Courthouse, a portion of which was made public Friday.

In the five pages of the settlement that were available for public review, the settlement amount had been marked out. Lower in the agreement, the parties specified that they would keep that amount confidential.

When asked during an earlier interview whether the amount was more than $1 million, Crump said: "I have no comment on that subject … I know you did not get that from me."

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-04-05/news/os-trayvon-martin-settlement-20130405_1_trayvon-martin-benjamin-crump-george-zimmerman

[yardwork]

178. That is only one lawsuit. There is a possibility of many more being filed.

Each individual member of the HOA is potentially at risk for liability, especially if Zimmerman is found guilty. The condo association board knew that he was unofficially patrolling the private community while armed with a gun. This could be perceived as negligent or even reckless behavior on the part of the condo association board.

[Adsos Letter]

157. Right again.

Any testimony that makes Z's actions appear justified under the law is helpful to the HOA.

Don't know why I had such a hard time getting that straight.

Thanks for your patience.

[handmade34]

151. this is my understanding...

Trayvon Martin's parents have already settled with the Homeowner's Association (approx 1M) and the Homeowner's Association is intending to sue George Zimmerman once this trial is over...

"...The settlement agreement should not have any effect on the criminal case but it does indicate that the HOA has little confidence in the viability of the GZ’s claim of self-defense..."

http://my.firedoglake.com/mason/2013/04/05/trayvon-martins-parents-settle-lawsuit-against-hoa-for-more-than-1-million/

[Nevernose]

31. Also testified to yesterday:

Zimmerman trains in MMA fighting three times a week, presumably practicing things like "ground and pound."

[chillfactor]

82. interesting to note that Good could "identify" Trayvon in the dark...

but could not identify a uniformed cop..sorry but Good's testimony had plenty of holes....

[premium]

86. And yet the jury was listening to him very closely,

Good seemed very credible to me, bottom line is that the prosecution had a bad day yesterday.

[DrDan]

175. there have been problems with each key witness to date - but you play the hand

you are dealt and hope the jury buys your case.

Plenty for the jury to weigh, that is for sure.

[csziggy]

169. Good also said he only heard two cries

From the 911 call with the screams and the gunshot, it is clear there were far more than two cries (screams, wails, whatever you want to call them).

I really don't trust most of the eye witnesses' evidence. Eye witnesses are notorious for being incorrect.

[DrDan]

173. he is testifying to what he heard - I heard none - does that bring my credibility into question?

Who (or is it whom - I always forget that rule) you and I trust means nothing - only who the jury trusts.

[csziggy]

176. Good was the only one who claimed to have gone outside

But he didn't hear the cries recorded over the phone when his neighbor was upstairs in her bedroom on the phone with 911? That really affects his credibility.

And you're correct - the only thing that matters is who the jury trusts. Whatever those of us who have followed the case on the internet believe will have no effect on the final verdict.

[uppityperson]

170. How can anyone see the color red in the dark? You can not see colors beyond black/white/grey in the

dark. Try it tonight. Go out where there is no light and try it. It is impossible to tell colors at night in the dark. Since this was happening in the dark, he could physically not see red.

And it makes more sense that the person TRAINED in MMA (Zimmerman) would be the one doing it, doesn't it?

[DrDan]

171. that was his testimony - up to the jury to apply credibility to it

[uppityperson]

172. I know. I just get annoyed with misconceptions of basic anatomy like this.

[DrDan]

174. I do realize red will appear black without light - however, I am sure there was some ambient light

the question for the jury is whether there was enough for that color to be recognized.

[BlueCaliDem]

79. Two women, by the way, say they saw Zimmerman on top.

The position of Trayvon's body appears that they are correct and that guy who said differently, was wrong since Trayvon was face down on the lawn and his hands were underneath him when the first police officer arrived at the scene, according to said police officer.

I'm just sayin' ... if Zimmerman gets off, there's going to be hell to pay.

[Duer 157099]

154. Zimmerman himself claims that he turned TM's body over after the gunshot

I think it completely consistent that some witnesses would see GZ on the bottom and some would see him on the top. He was both places, at different times.

To me, the most important piece of evidence is the powder marks on TM's body and clothing. They seem to indicate that his clothing was falling away from his body at the time of the shot, that his shirt AND sweatshirt were falling with gravity away from his skin.

I think TM was trying to hold GZ down on the ground.

[BlueCaliDem]

166. Why would Zimmerman do that? Is that normal for a shooter to turn a victim's body over?

That doesn't make sense to me - unless GZ was trying to rob TM.

The fact remains that two witnesses say that GZ was on top just before they heard the gunshot. I believe it's highly unlikely that GZ turned the body around after he shot him unless, of course, he was trying to search his back pockets.

[Hugabear]

14. Others said it was Zimmerman on top

Only one witness said they saw Trayvon on top. So far the others have said it was the larger guy on top.

[DrDan]

16. this witness was 15-20 feet away - closer than the others if I remember correctly

[brush]

25. Ahh . . . zimmerman was the larger guy, 40-50 lbs larger. nt

[Hugabear]

26. Yes, Zimmerman was the larger guy

I don't think that's ever been in dispute

[pnwmom]

95. I thought another witness said the guy on top was wearing a red and black jacket

like Zimmerman's.

[kudzu22]

163. The spanish-speaking lady said she saw the red-and-black jacket on top

but only after the shot was fired. Nobody has testified to seeing GZ on top of TM throwing punches or shooting.

[loli phabay]

2. if it happened this way, forensics will tell.

[Ian David]

3. It would be easier to ask his brother, or even one of the cops for help receiving wounds.

Or maybe his father.

But I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of the responding officers were willing to help him receive some appropriately convincing wounds.

[loli phabay]

5. yeah and you dont think that no one would have seen that occur.

Conspiracy after conspiracy seems to be the order of the day, would be interesting to see if people want the truth of what happened or just want the result that they want.

[DrDan]

6. agree - some will twist the facts into any shape that fits their desired outcome

rather than listening to the testimony and forming an opinion based on facts

[Hugabear]

13. Like the fact that Trayvon's hands had absolutely no bruises?

Kinda hard to "rain down blows" on someone without getting your hands bruised in the process.

[loli phabay]

49. one scenarion were you get this is open hand on face pounding head on object

Forensics next week as someone said will probuably tell us more.

[cherokeeprogressive]

96. Didn't someone testify that bruises do not form after a person dies?

Are you suggesting that bruises should have formed in a few seconds, while Martin was still alive?

[Hugabear]

99. They should have formed while Trayvon was 'raining down blows'

That is, if he was actually doing so

[cherokeeprogressive]

108. I cannot find anything on the intertubes that says bruises form immediately.

The norm seems to be between 1 hour and 1-2 days.

Being as how they're formed when capillaries get broken and blood flows from them, bruises do not form after the heart has stopped beating.

This leads me to believe that the immediacy of Trayvon's death inhibited any bruising.

The following link pretty much sums up what I've read at others.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/91369

[Ian David]

50. I'm not saying that's how it happened. Just that it wouldn't surprise me. n/t

[loli phabay]

51. if i read stuff right there were witnesses with eyes on from the fight to the emts etc

Cant see how he could self inflict without someone seeing it.

[Ian David]

72. Then if enough of those witnesses say he was already injured, he must either...

... have been injured in the fight, or very quickly injured himself.

Or he was already beaten-up by someone else before he encountered Trayvon.

Looking for someone to take out his frustrations on, after someone bigger than him kicked his ass.

[backscatter712]

19. I think this is the most plausible scenario right here. n/t

[katmondoo]

4. That thought occured to me also

even before they found no evidence on Trayvon's hands

[cthulu2016]

7. or maybe a unicorn did it

If you just want to make stuff up, why not aim higher?

[pintobean]

9. My unicorn never left the garage that night.

Just saying...

[hollysmom]

78. really? Your unicorn has a set up alibi?

Inter-resting. unicorns are known for their history of violence - that horn is not there just for decoration - just saying.

[pintobean]

90. Being invisible, it's pretty much required. nt

[hollysmom]

97. you have a Romulan Unicorn? n/t

[NoOneMan]

11. Did he get hit at MMA practice?

[uponit7771]

140. GOOD QUESTION!!!

[pipi_k]

12. I guess anything

is possible.

Is it probable? I really doubt it.

He had just shot a young man. I really don't think his mind would be planning ahead like that.

Especially if he really and truly believed he had a "right" to shoot someone because he felt his life was in danger. I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that a person wouldn't actually need to have injuries to prove he thought his life was in danger.

So unless and until a witness comes forth to state without question that he saw Zimmerman bash his own head, I think people should just stop trying to find him guilty without the full evidence.

[cherokeeprogressive]

112. Don't you find it surprising that VERY intelligent people, who are VERY well informed...

but were neither present nor know/knew either Martin OR Zimmerman are absolutely CERTAIN they know what happened? That's the thing I'm puzzled about the most; That very intelligent people would claim to know beyond a shadow of a doubt how an event they didn't see went down and what each participant's motivation was.

No matter how hard I try I can't wrap my mind around this.

[pipi_k]

186. Surprised, yet...

not surprised, if you know what I mean.

There are people who were actually there that night who either saw or heard something who can't even agree.

And here on DU what do we have...people who weren't there arguing with each other...

even calling each other names!

I just shake my head.

I wonder if they realize that even the jurors will have to decide Z's fate based on what they think happened.

No one will ever really know for sure...

[backscatter712]

17. I wouldn't put it past him.

Whether he actually did or not, or whether he got someone to do it for him, that's speculation.

But I can certainly see Zimmerman wounding himself or having himself wounded after he killed Trayvon so he could plea self defense.

[graham4anything]

23. As Mr. Martin didn't lay a finger on him, obviously it wasn't Mr. Martin. therefore ...

if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it normally is a duck.

Someone BESIDES Mr. Martin did it, of that I am sure.

(ASSUMING there was anything done at all, because the police said THERE WAS NO BROKEN NOSE AT ALL).

Perhaps zim just had a nose bleed.

[B2G]

32. The EMT testified that the nose was likey broken

but couldn't state for sure without xrays.

Just had a nosebleed....sure. You saw the pictures, right?

[graham4anything]

35. you are asking the wrong person

I thought zim should have been charged with premeditated first degree murder and when found guilty given Florida's top
sentence.
I am more convinced than ever.

that's just my opinion and I am sticking to it.

[B2G]

37. I am asking the person claiming there was no broken nose

How they came to that conclusion when court testimony specifically states otherwise.

[graham4anything]

43. 70s year apart in Sanford Florida...

Jackie Robinson was forced to flee a mob 70 years ago making it out without being killed

70 years later, Trayvon Martin was asssasssinated in cold blood

without a gun and bullet

reinterpret the 2nd so that vigilante Paul Blart's cannot in any way have a gun.

zim would have been smart to take a deal
I have heard some talking head say that the defense might ask for one at this late point

Wonder, is that allowed in the state of Florida?

[B2G]

46. There is no point in talking to you about this

Or much else for that matter. Buh bye.

[premium]

80. Yep,

just more word salad from G4A.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

102. The conclusion was reached, in part, upon the responding EMT who wrote

in his report wrote: "Mucous Membrane Normal".
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.fdems.report.pdf

Also, the on-scene photo taken by the police of Zimmerman's face.

When a nose is broken, it causes trauma to blood vessels. Typically, some blood flows out the nostrils. Invariably, when the bleeding through the nostrils is stopped, bloods builds up in the area near the lower part of the eyes and causes that area to swell up.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

101. Actually, the EMT who responded wrote in his report wrote: "Mucous Membrane Normal".

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.fdems.report.pdf

Obviously, the blood was from an external source, the small cut on the skin of his nose.

The EMT's report written contemporaneously with the event did not say "that the nose was likely broken."

[uponit7771]

141. +1

[Nevernose]

39. The doc said it might have been broken

She referred him to an ear nose throat guy, which he declined to go to. She also testified that the scratch on the head was minor and the bandage on it was for looks (she didnt apply it). And she testified that he trained three days a week in MMA.

[Voice for Peace]

65. she also, I thought, seemed sympathetic to the defense

(until they got into cross examination,
with their utterly annoying questions & manner.)

[pintobean]

47. Sometime in the 10 - 20 seconds

between the gun shot and when the first person arrives on the scene - Jonathan Manalo, resident and witness for the prosecution, who took photos of the bloody Zimmerman.

The obese Mr. Zimmerman possesses more super powers.

[CokeMachine]

57. Some of these posts make me wonder if I somehow stumbled into

the creative speculation group. I choose to wait for the testimony. If proven guilty he should be put away for a long time!!

[pintobean]

58. It's quite obvious that some people

just aren't paying attention to the trial. Getting "news" from talking heads isn't really getting news. I've been watching the on-line stream, without comments. I'm seeing what the jury sees. All of the baseless speculation here doesn't mean shit to the outcome of this trial.

[CokeMachine]

59. Yep -- Have a great Weekend!! nt

[pintobean]

60. You too.

It's a beautiful day, here.

[egduj]

28. I would think it highly unlikely.

[dkf]

29. Leaks of the autopsy say there was damage to Martin's knuckles.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

But we will see the actual forensics next week.

[Just Saying]

45. That's not news

There was a very small cut on Trayvon's left knuckle.

[Voice for Peace]

67. that reads like sensationalist reporting

exaggerating the information before they even
had the facts. Prosecutor said one small cut
on his left hand, nothing more. No tearing,
bruising, no Z dna.

[uponit7771]

142. That's false, there was a "small abrasion" on his ring finger there was no damage to his knuckels

[dpibel]

162. Leaks? Seriously. Get a grip.

The Medical Examiner's report has been out and about for months.

Why add that word? It hasn't been secret.

You're pretty good, but you go overboard at times. Suggest you tighten the act.

[Just Saying]

41. I feel like his injuries may be a combination of

Him trying to physically detain Trayvon and the fight. Zimmerman either tried to order Trayvon to stay put, started questioning him as if he had some authority or tried to stop him (put hands on him.). I do think it's very possible Trayvon struck him it I believe it was in self-defense. Zimmerman was the aggressor from beginning to end.

I just hope the prosecution can take apart Zimmerman's story. Trayvon's friend, the female neighbor and the medical witnesses helped.

[Arugula Latte]

42. Who knows at this point, but I wouldn't put it past that murderous asshole.

[russspeakeasy]

44. Some research on the Sanford PD will give you some

doubt about their abilities and willingness to make things go away (for the betterment) of the community.
Personally, I avoid the place when possible.

[DeschutesRiver]

52. I saw the video of Zimmerman walking into and at the police station, only minor

scratches were present on his head. No one, not him, nor the cops were all that concerned from their appearance on the video. This tape was all over the news and nobody thought it showed a guy who needed medical treatment.

If he had any injuiries more severe the next day, I figured he had his friends or family inflict them, so that he could pretend the next day that they were inflicted by the kid he deliberately killed to bolster his self defense claim.

That said, according to the medical person who examined him, he had no serious injuiries, as one would expect to see from getting ones head pounded repeatedly on concrete to the point that one felt in danger of dying at the hands of the kid one was stalking. Just some little bitty scratches, probably quite the bleeders as all head scractches can be. I do a ton of outdoor stuff and farm chores on my ranch - we don't go to a doc for that kind of stuff, nor does anyone we know.

Neither did Zimmerman, until a while day later, though he didn't get any value from the trip, defense wise from what I heard of the med testimony.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

103. Here's where the EMT report can be found:

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.fdems.report.pdf

Some people are claiming that it says things which it clearly does not.

As verified by the report, Zimmerman didn't have any serious injuries.

[DeschutesRiver]

117. Thanks for that link; had not seen the EMT report before

That report is about as clear cut as it gets.

[prole_for_peace]

123. Here are photos of his injuries. The do not look serious.

They certainly do not look like someone who's head was "smashed" into the sidewalk multiple times.

http://jacksonville.com/slideshows/trayvon-martin/see-evidence-photos-george-zimmermans-injuries-shooting-scene#slide-1

[DeschutesRiver]

126. Those kind of tiny scratches are what I remember seeing from that earlier video

Honestly, I have shaved my legs too quickly with a sharp brand new razor and scraped my shin badly, which looked about like those scratches on Zimmermans head in those photos.

I didn't die from it, though they were quite the bleeders. Zimmerman wasn't about to die from those little scratches either, nor could he possibly have thought so at the time.

[quinnox]

53. And keep in mind Zimmerman outweighed Martin by 40 pounds

So its hard to imagine him getting the worse of it in a fight with the skinny black kid.

I think Zimmerman faking his injuries by causing them himself is a very real possibility.

I do love the gasps of amazement though by some Zimmerman defenders, as if its something that is so outlandish or unheard of. I guess they never watched reality shows about true crimes, because guilty people try shit like this on a regular basis.

[Nye Bevan]

54. Even if I knew that breaking my own nose would keep me out of prison,

I really don't think I would be able to do it.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

105. You don't have a friend who would help?

[Nye Bevan]

107. So someone I could call and say "hey man! I need you to get here ASAP and break my nose!"

Not really, no.

[RandiFan1290]

55. No smeared blood on the back of his head and no lumps

that would quickly show up if you had your head slammed into concrete.
It looks like an abrasion at worst that was allowed to bleed down.

Small swollen scrape on bridge of his nose looks like the worst injury. Could be a headbutt from a kid fighting a prowler over his gun. Then a little cut on the end of his nose that looks like it was allowed to bleed out for effect.

Zimmerman looked like someone that lost a wrestling match. Not someone that just had his head and face bashed in.

[uponit7771]

143. +1

[AnotherMcIntosh]

56. Here's the on-scene photo taken by the cop.

The confrontation didn't break Zimmerman's nose. His nose was reportedly already shaped that way from his MMA practice activities. To give himself a little self-defense credibiity, all he needed was a slight swelling to the nose (without any change in the eyes) and a small amount of blood.

Zimmerman defenders may misinterpret the photo as providing more than what it actually shows. (1) It doesn't establish that Martin was the aggressor. (2) It also doesn't establish that Martin is the one that hit Zimmerman to cause Zimmerman's nose to be swollen.

I'm one who is willing to suspect that Zimmerman, while being aware of homicide charges that could be filed against him, had sufficient time to create his own injuries. Just look at the photo at #43. Did Zimmerman hit himself on the right side of his nose with an object such as his gun? Did he cause a small cut that produced sufficient blood that would be smeared, by him with his right hand, on the tip of his nose, his upper and lower lips, and the right side of his mustache? How could he have so much blood, and a lot of blood on his lips, and yet not have any blood beyond the lower lip?

[B2G]

63. Looks broken to me...and the EMT on scene agreed. n/t

[pintobean]

66. as did the physicians assistant who treated him the following day.

I'll take words (under oath) of the professionals who treated him and others who were actually there, over wild internet speculation.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

70. RECENTLY broken noses are accompanied by blood vessel damage as shown by black eyes.

Old broken noses are not.

[pintobean]

109. Indeed. Here's the video of her testimony

She treated him the next day and says he had 2 black eyes.

Jump to the 27:10 mark and watch until the 28:35 mark.

&feature=c4-overview&list=UUhtJizJ4Lqcr9E_l0Py-cQw

[AnotherMcIntosh]

115. Since the on-scene EMT reported "Mucous Membrane Normal,"

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.fdems.report.pdf

which negated any on-scene indication of a broken nose, and since Zimmerman needed a "self-defense" theory and had MMA friends who could help him by breaking his nose, it appears that the broken nose occurred between the time of the shooting and the time that the witness examined him.

[pintobean]

129. Or, he could have been struck by a meteorite.

Here's the EMT testimony, in case you're interested in reality.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

136. "Or, he could have been struck by a meteorite. ... in case you're interested in reality."

See didn't seem to testify about a meterorite.

Did you hear her say that he had been struck by a meteroite?

The EMT report (the one reported "Mucous Membrane Normal&quot was prepared near the time of the incident at a time when the EMT had no motive to provide anything other than the truth.

Zimmerman was known to have been favored by one or more influential members of the police department and/or the district attorney's office. Initially, he wasn't even going to arrested for a homicide.

Now, with your "in case you're interested in reality" statement, I take it that you mean that the origional words in the EMT report must be disregarded and that any words to the contrary by the EMT must be unquestionably accepted as true.

And I take it that if someone does not accept the latest version without question, you mean to say that they must believe that Zimmerman was struck by a meteorite.

That doesn't seem logical. Or at least not to me.

You should not be overly concerned. The prosecutor seems to have left his game at home and is not even objecting to questions that call for speculation. It looks like the defense attorney might win this case. That's really what you want, isn't it?

[pintobean]

138. The EMT report didn't mention his MMA buddies

breaking his nose in a CYA move, either. I responded to your ridiculous speculation by being ridiculous.

The report you mentioned is in evidence, as is the testimony. Maybe you should contact the prosecution about getting your MMA buddies theory into evidence.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

139. Then if you don't believe that he had such buddies, you must be right about your meteorite theory.

Contact the prosecutor? The one allowing speculative questions to be asked without objection? The one allowing the defense attorney to present a defense with speculative questions?

If the defense attorney asks about a meterorite theory, then we'll all know that you are on the defense team.

[forthemiddle]

168. I read medical records for a living

Mucous Membranes Normal is a standard documentation within the ENT exam. ENT is "Ears, NOSE, and Throat". When the standard documentation states MMN (or mucous membranes normal) it can also refer to the lips and pharynx. All of these structures have mucous membranes.
Reading this documentation there is no indication that it is the nasal mucous membranes they are referring to.

That does not mean it isn't, but you can not state, Mucous Membrane Normal and state there was not injury to the nose, or that the nose was not broken. One does not preclude the other.

I am not taking a side, (I haven't been following the story closely enough), but for you to state because the dictation state "Mucous Membrane Normal" means that GZ didn't have a broken nose is just flat out misleading.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

187. So you "read medical records for a living" and anyone who doesn't read medical records for a living

but interprets a report different from you is not "misinterpreting" a report but is "misleading"? Is that your position?

If you truly are "not taking a side," why use the pejorative term "misleading"?

Excuse me, but your use the pejorative term "misleading," instead of misinterpreting, indicates that you are "taking a side."

I also think that you are wrong in the sense that your answer is illogical.

Your explanation that you are an expert and that the phrase "Mucous Membranes Normal" includes mucous membranes in addition to those lining the nose ("lips and pharynx&quot , that does not mean that the mucous membranes in the nose were any thing other than normal.

In fact, to the extent that the EMT intended to include the mucous membranes of the lips and pharynx with the mucous membranes of the nose, that indicates that all of the mucous membranes were normal. He used the word NORMAL. Unless it takes a special expertise to understand that the word "normal" in a medical report to mean "normal," he meant "normal."

[forthemiddle]

189. Sorry if you took it the wrong way

I was telling you that when they state Mucous Membranes normal, it does not automatically preclude a broken nose. Sorry to point out a FACT!
I am not prejudging in any case, I was just stating that I read on average 100 medical encounters a day, for the federal government, by the way to audit for charges. In that case what I do is read, and literally count the number of systems a provider exams for a physical exam (along with the history of present illness, and medical decision making - which does not come into play for this post). When "counting for the exam, MMN (mucous membrane normal) that can include oral, nasal, or lips. It would not automatically mean - OH this person doesn't have a broken nose, which you seem to be implying.

This case inflames passion, and opinion of all sides, so I will stay out of it from now on. I only post when I see mistaken (sorry for the words misleading, but that is what you were doing. Misleading people to assume because the mucous membranes where normal, George Zimmerman was lying, and must have broken his nose on his own.

I will not post on the subject again, but for others reading this, please know that just because the mucous membranes were normal, that doesn't mean shit.

[pintobean]

190. Thank you for the info. nt

[AnotherMcIntosh]

81. Does it look RECENTLY broken? I'm including a link to the EMT report.

Boxers, MMA practitioners, and others involved in the personal combat sports commonly have broken noses at one time or another.

The trauma is accompanied by trauma to blood vessels and the symptoms include black eyes. In fact, the eyes start to show it immediately with some swelling, but the full color develops as time goes by. The pulse rate also goes up with the result that the body's temperature increases.

I don't know why you say that "the EMT on the scene agreed" with your belief that Zimmerman's nose was recently broken.

In his report, http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.fdems.report.pdf
he did not observe a recently broken nose but expressly wrote: "Mucous Membrane Normal". Although Zimmerman had a small laceration to his skin, the EMT also observed that his temp was within normal limits.

When you say that "the EMT on scene agreed" with your belief that Zimmerman had a broken nose from the encounter, it is clear that he did not.

[RandiFan1290]

76. In the cleaned up pic

it looks like he has 2 very small cuts on the tip of his nose

[AnotherMcIntosh]

83. Also, the EMT who responded wrote in his report wrote: "Mucous Membrane Normal".

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/images/05/17/zimmerman.fdems.report.pdf

To the extent that Zimmerman had a broken nose on the day of the incident, it was a fully healed old one.

[cherokeeprogressive]

114. Contrast that picture with this one:

[prole_for_peace]

125. And this is evidence photo taking a police station

if his nose was broken, how did the swelling go down so fast?

[connecticut yankee]

61. I've always thought he did.

1. Trayvon had absolutely none of Zimmerman's blood or DNA on him. If he had bloodied Z's nose, some of it would have gotten on him.

2. The body was on the grass, quite a distance from the concrete. If the fight took place on the grass, how could Trayvon hsve repeadedly banged Z's head into the concrete?

I think Z beat himself up in order to give himself an alibi (if that's the correct term). Justification for the "Stand your ground" defense.

[Voice for Peace]

62. has there been testimony yet from the ME who examined Trayvon?

I think not, hope I haven't missed it.

[Starry Messenger]

64. I think so.

His story about being pounded in the face 25-30 times is complete garbage. He'd be dead.

[Adsos Letter]

68. Was there enough time?

Was there enough time between the gunshot and the moment the first witness saw what was happening? The cops were't the first ones to observe what was happening.

[TorchTheWitch]

69. deliberately self-inflicted, no

I think that's a bit ridiculous. I do think Zimmerman got his injuries in some other way than what he described. I don't believe Martin pounded his head on the walkway. No one saw this occur, and his injuries aren't consistent with having one's head repeatedly slammed into concrete.

I also don't think that Martin punched Zimmerman either. I think that Martin was on top of Zimmerman when he was shot but Zimmerman already had his gun out giving Martin every reason to be violently defending himself and scream for help. However, if in fact at the time of the gun shot it was Zimmerman on the bottom then he got his injuries from the recoil of the gun whacking him in the face and at least one of his head injuries from the whiplash of the gun recoil hitting him in the face causing his head to snap back and whack the pavement. But, if his gun was already out, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to violently defend himself and scream for help.

I think the big crux of this altercation is not who was on top and when but whether or not Zimmerman had his gun out and when, and I believe that anyone who has a gun when getting into a physical altercation with someone would draw that gun in order to stop the altercation so as not to become injured. I don't believe for a minute that Zimmerman didn't draw his gun until he was being pummeled or even struck once. When someone has a gun they would draw that gun in order to keep from being assaulted or to stop an altercation not necessarily to shoot it but to use it as a deterrent. And once that gun came out Martin had every right to defend himself however he could. I think that Zimmerman expected that by drawing his gun Martin would stop contributing to the altercation and do whatever Zimmerman wanted. But I also believe that when the gun came out that Martin believed he would be shot and defended himself as best he could.

I absolutely believe that once the physical altercation first started that Zimmerman pulled out his gun. Why would someone who has a gun when that gun gave them the courage to pursue someone and confront them would not draw that gun even to use as a deterrent rather than allow themselves to be hurt in any way and would expect that by drawing that gun on someone would cause that person to halt any attempt at further altercation? NO WAY do I believe that Zimmerman had this gun and allowed himself to get as injured as he did BEFORE drawing it. He would have drawn it the moment he felt threatened in any way. And if that is what happened it is reasonable that Martin would have believed he would be shot and done whatever he could to keep that from happening.

I also believe that it was Martin who was screaming whether he was the one on top or not because Zimmerman threatened him with his gun. The screams for help abruptly stopped with the gun shot, there's no reason to believe that someone with a gun pointing it at someone and pulling the trigger would be the one screaming for help, and there's no reason to believe that the person screaming for help would abruptly stop doing so at the moment they pulled the trigger. It's not so much what the screams sounded like whether coming from Zimmerman or Martin but the rest of the context of those screams as I mentioned. It's THAT that tells me it was Martin screaming for help, and he was screaming for help because Zimmerman had pulled his gun on him.

[yardwork]

75. Could Zimmerman's gun have kicked back and hit him in the nose when he shot Martin?

If Zimmerman shot Martin while they were tussling - which seems likely - then isn't it possible that the gun kicked back and hit Zimmerman in the nose? That might have knocked Zimmerman's head back and caused the scalp injuries too.

In that case, the injuries were self-inflicted, although not deliberately.

[premium]

84. Highly unlikely,

the gun would've had to have been within 1-2 inches of his nose, that doesn't compute with the evidence, if it were so, then Zman would've had Trayvon's blood all over his face.

Here's the bottom line, it matters not what we here believe or not believe, what matters is whether or not the prosecution is able to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt to the jury, and, judging by what I saw yesterday, I have serious doubts on that.

[yardwork]

88. Then in that case I think that Zimmerman hit himself with his own gun. It had his blood on it.

If it wasn't accidental, it was probably deliberate self-infliction of wounds, done after Zimmerman murdered somebody, to give himself a justification. He probably believes it himself now.

[premium]

93. It would seem to me that you've already convicted Zman

without waiting for all the testimony, prosecution and defense, myself, I'm waiting for all the evidence to be presented, I'm leaning towards guilty, but I'm open to not guilty depending upon future evidence.

[TorchTheWitch]

92. isn't that what I said?

Because that's exactly what I think happened. Even what his injuries look like appears to me is what happened. As I understand it, Zimmerman's gun also had his own blood on it which could be explained by the recoil causing it to smack his own face. If that is what happened, then his head probably snapped back onto the pavement. But given that there were several slight abrasions to the back of his head I think he probably more likely got those from rolling his head about on the pavement during the tussle or even on the grass where there was likely small rocks, bits of tree branches or whatever.

But it could be that Martin inflicted the injuries in a fight but that level of violence from him was because Zimmerman drew his gun on him and Martin was terrified that he was going to be shot. If Zimmerman drew his gun at that moment Martin had every right to believe it would be used on him and violently protect himself as best he could.

[yardwork]

135. Sorry, I hadn't understand that that was exactly what you said.

Sounds like we agree.

[Deep13]

77. Unknown. Doesn't matter.

Can't use lethal force to respond to non-lethal force. Martin was unarmed.

[Recursion]

85. Unarmed people can still kill you

Unarmed people kill more Americans every year than rifles.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

110. "Can't use lethal force to respond to non-lethal force"? Sure you can. Sometimes, even legally.

[Deep13]

111. When? nt

[Hoyt]

89. I have no doubt Zimmerman murdered Martin, but I don't think he injured himself other

than possibly falling down, getting hit in the face from gun recoil, or something like that.

Personally, I hope Martin did get in a few good punches in self-defense before being murdered by the gun toting bigot.

[premium]

100. And you have no doubt that most gun owners are RW bigots

who are only waiting to shoot someone.

[Hoyt]

104. No question in my mind. Just go to a friggin gun show, gun store, range or whatever you choose.

Lack of diversity is a dead give-a-way.

[premium]

106. 7 people out of, how many, 80+ million?

Thank you for proving my point.

[Hugabear]

113. Yes, gun shows are models of racial diversity

[premium]

116. So AA and Latinos don't buy firearms also?

I know plenty who do. Just because the MSM doesn't show that, doesn't mean they don't.

[Hoyt]

118. Prem, wise up. If white folks weren't irrationally afraid of minorities, we wouldn't have a problem.

Heck, gun, ammo, accessory sales, etc., would plummet Zimmerman would not have grabbed his gun and shot Trayvon Martin. The NRA -- and what is essentially a white supremacist board, including Norquist, Bolton, Nugent, Ollie North, gun manufacturers, etc. -- would not be a factor in our elections and in promoting the right wing's agenda.

And, yet you gun guys want to criticize the friend of Trayvon Martin as being stupid. . . . . . . .

[premium]

122. You're on a roll Hoyt,

keep on going.

[hack89]

156. Yet gun violence is mainly intra-racial

Last edited Sat Jun 29, 2013, 09:45 PM - Edit history (1)

whites killing whites, blacks killing blacks.

How is that possible giving that all those racist gun owners are buying guns to kill people of a different color?

[premium]

124. Gun Shows I attended in Las Vegas, Reno, Carson City sure were. nt.

[Hoyt]

119. 7 my ass.

I can produce plenty more. Like I said, go to any gun store or gun show.

[premium]

121. Wow, 14 out of 80+ million gun owners?

You're on a roll Hoyt.

[Hugabear]

132. We're talking about gun shows

Do try to keep up.

There might be a a few African Americans and Latinos at gun shows, but the overwhelming majority of gun show enthusiasts are white males

[premium]

133. Do try to keep up,

I did say gun shows in Las Vegas, Reno, Carson City, there were a significant number of AA at all those shows.

And so what if the majority are white, what does that prove?

[RichardPatrick]

128. Uh huh.

[RandiFan1290]

158. Only page with matching images......

freerepublic

[RandiFan1290]

160. Welcome Back!

[RandiFan1290]

165. Buh bye troll jackbag!

Let us know what your new screen name is today!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

145. How many gun shows have you gone to? Didn't you say at least once that you were a former robber

or former home invader? I forget which.

[Hoyt]

146. Neither, but you are obviously a gun lover.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

147. Actually, you said, "As a former robber, I locked the door to keep people out"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1172&pid=45338

Why shouldn't we believe your origional statement?

Were you telling the truth then or are you telling the truth now?

[Hoyt]

148. Mac, it was a response to your or another gun nuts' stupid statement.

And you are still too obtuse to get it.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

150. I didn't even post in that thread, so you didn't respond to me.

Confession is good for the soul.

[Hoyt]

153. You are still too obtuse to get it, worse you stalk posters.

[moondust]

98. Staging could be a possibility.

Could even involve witnesses and/or cops. "Hey, it's just some unknown black kid, not one of us."

Which would explain not arresting GZ at the scene. And make this whole trial a sham.

[prole_for_peace]

120. The wounds on the back of his head could have come from falling on the sidewalk.

They certainly do not look like they are from his head being "smashed" into the sidewalk like his team saying.

[Warpy]

127. I've always had the faint suspicion his daddy beat the hell out of him

when he came home and told Papa what he'd done that night.

The lack of defensive injury means there was a reason he wasn't fighting back.

[mwrguy]

130. No bruises on Martin's hands could be a result of

using palm-heel strikes.

[uponit7771]

144. ...nope, played balled and used them all the time..they would swell like mad until I got gloves...

...was a linemen and couldn't block used fingers so had to use palm heel...

My thumbs would come out of socket some times because of initial contact

[AtomicKitten]

149. I read initial reports that he refused EMT assistance

at the scene of the crime. I have no doubt in my mind he was fine and didn't want that on the record. Further bolstering that is the fact that he didn't cough up "proof" of injuries until days later.

[grok]

152. Don't you actually have to be alive to have bruises?

Not being facetious, and somebody that knows medicine should answer,,

Martin died within a couple minutes after the fight started. since the gunshot went the the heart, blood flow should have stopped immediately

My understanding is that bruises and swelling form after the damage is done obviously but it takes time, not much, but still time.

A partial answer....

http://www.ask.com/question/how-long-does-it-take-for-a-bruise-to-form

[kudzu22]

164. If the prosecutor has some evidence that GZ's injuries were self-inflicted

that would make this a slam-dunk case. I don't think you're going to see any such evidence though, and the prosecution doesn't seem to be building toward that argument. Rather, they seem to be arguing that GZ's wounds were not that severe and therefore his life was not in danger, and therefore he's guilty of 2nd degree murder. It's still a shaky case, though.

[backwoodsbob]

177. well the first witness was there in like thirty seconds so

he would have had to get up,realize his situation,and beat himself up in less than 25 seconds

[yardwork]

179. The injuries could have been caused by recoil when he fired the gun.

Or he could have wacked himself upside the head with the gun. That would only take a second.

[backwoodsbob]

180. oh come on...this is getting silly

He just shot someone and you think he was that calculating that fast?

[yardwork]

181. If was hit by recoil he didn't calculate at all.

What I find silly is the suggestion that Zimmerman is in any way the victim here. I find it silly to suggest that his murder of an unarmed teenager was justified in anybody's mind as self-defense.

[backwoodsbob]

182. I never said he was a victim

I just think people making shit up on the fly with zero evidence and stating it as the indisputable truth is silly.

Lets wait on all the evidence to come out and see where things are

[yardwork]

183. Zimmerman's defense depends entirely on him being a victim.

He acknowledges that he shot and killed an unarmed minor. Zimmerman's only defense is that he was being beaten to death by that teenager, that he was in fear for his life, and that he had no choice but to shoot and kill.

The only evidence so far that Zimmerman was injured are the minor injuries to his nose and the back of his head. Since those injuries are absolutely central to the entire case, it's reasonable for people to speculate on what caused them.

[backwoodsbob]

185. of course

and it's also reasonable to believe Zimmerman was being beaten and was in fear for his life.You don't have to wait until you have life threatening injuries to be in fear for your life.

It's also possible that Zimmerman was a stone cold killer looking to shoot someone

NOBODY knows for sure.That's why we have to wait on the testimony to come out

[Politicalboi]

184. My guess is

He may have hit his head on his car door frame while trying to get out so fast, and I think his facial marks comes from the gun kick back.

[backwoodsbob]

188. my guess is

the invisible NRA fairies working with the ghosts of KKK past who shot Martin for him paralyzed him momentarily and beat him up so they could push their NRA agenda and sell some guns for the advantage of the martians who have implanted mindcontrol chips in all the guns that were sold

That makes as much sense as some of the other made up shit I have read