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ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 02:54 AM Feb 2012

Glimpses of a Tibetan/Chinese Town Under Lockdown


The Guardian still image from a Guardian video filmed inside the town of Aba, which is under lockdown by Chinese security forces after a string of self-immolations by protesters.
February 13, 2012, 5:50 pm
By J. DAVID GOODMAN

In the latest of a string of self-immolation protests against Chinese policies, a 19-year-old Tibetan monk set himself on fire on Monday in the rugged western Chinese town of Aba, the advocacy group Free Tibet said in an e-mailed statement. It was the second self-immolation by a Tibetan teenager in three days and the 23rd since last March, according to the group.

Chinese security forces standing nearby quickly doused the flames before hauling the monk, Lobsang Gyatso, away from the scene, the group said. Neither the severity of his burns nor his current whereabouts were immediately known.

His protest followed that of an 18-year-old nun, Tenzin Choedon, who died on Saturday after lighting herself on fire.

The town of Aba, or Ngaba in Tibetan, and the wider area of the northwestern Sichuan province where it is located have been locked down for months by Chinese security forces who have thrown up a series of checkpoints along the roads leading into the area and prevented nearly all foreign journalists from entering, The Guardian’s Jonathan Watts reported. The authorities have also blocked Internet and mobile phone communications, preventing the type of activist and citizen journalist reports that have allowed information to escape to other restive areas around the world.

More: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/glimpses-of-a-tibetan-town-under-lockdown/?partner=rss&emc=rss
Video Report from the Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/feb/10/inside-tibet-heart-protest-video


From the International Campaign for Tibet
32 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Glimpses of a Tibetan/Chinese Town Under Lockdown (Original Post) ellisonz Feb 2012 OP
How horrifying, sickening, and useless self immolation is. Perhaps this lockdown is not a bad thing. 1620rock Feb 2012 #1
Just goes to show that religious extremists come in all flavors. (n/t) LAGC Feb 2012 #3
Goes to show some will go to weird lengths to justify oppression (n/t) pinboy3niner Feb 2012 #4
It's pretty hard to root for either side in this particular conflict. LAGC Feb 2012 #5
Except the misery is all Tibetan. ellisonz Feb 2012 #6
Oh, I think many Chinese would beg to differ. LAGC Feb 2012 #9
How are self-immolations violence? How are largely peaceful protests violence? They are Buddhists. ellisonz Feb 2012 #10
religious extremist ? Vehl Feb 2012 #14
You tell me. LAGC Feb 2012 #20
This is probably the only choice they have Vehl Feb 2012 #21
delete (dupe) 1620rock Feb 2012 #2
Lol at the Qinghai, Gansu, and Sichuan inside "Tibet border." David__77 Feb 2012 #7
That is the historic border. ellisonz Feb 2012 #8
It's a known fact that a certain poster defends all actions of the PRC Vehl Feb 2012 #16
Oh I'm well-aware of that... ellisonz Feb 2012 #18
"certain posters" are right-wing McCarthyites David__77 Feb 2012 #19
yes Vehl Feb 2012 #23
oy vey ellisonz Feb 2012 #25
to be fair - perhaps he meant Eugene McCarthy. marasinghe Feb 2012 #31
Acceptable irredentism? BuroshKozorg Feb 2012 #26
Lines on a map... ellisonz Feb 2012 #27
So here are more maps: BuroshKozorg Feb 2012 #28
In failing to address... ellisonz Feb 2012 #29
Complaining that "Tibet is too big" Liora24 Feb 2012 #30
Thank you! ellisonz Feb 2012 #32
BS Vehl Feb 2012 #15
K & R for Tibet! dreamnightwind Feb 2012 #11
Thank you. ellisonz Feb 2012 #12
+1 Vehl Feb 2012 #17
Kick. ellisonz Feb 2012 #13
Never could understand why we involve ourselves justiceischeap Feb 2012 #22
I think it's important to not forget... ellisonz Feb 2012 #24

LAGC

(5,330 posts)
5. It's pretty hard to root for either side in this particular conflict.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 03:28 AM
Feb 2012

Misery loves company, I guess.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
6. Except the misery is all Tibetan.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 03:45 AM
Feb 2012

How is demanding the restoration of independence and/or religious freedom, economic rights etc. causing the PRC misery. The PRC is attempting to absorb Tibet not only politically, but culturally and the PRC is fighting back with further provocations belying their already imperialist assault on the Tibetan people. If this was not the case, the PRC would be allowing journalists into Tibet. They are not because they know what they've done and continue to do is a crime against humanity.

LAGC

(5,330 posts)
9. Oh, I think many Chinese would beg to differ.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 04:02 AM
Feb 2012

Living under Communist Party rule is its own form of misery, the Tibetans are hardly alone in this.

Truth is, China has a long history of struggling with religious violence within its borders, so its not exactly surprising that the Chinese government would be wary of Tibet's religious heritage, or that of the Uygur Muslims or even unregistered Christians in the mainland for that matter.

It's going to take a collective effort by a broad swath of the Chinese people to rise up and overthrow their authoritarian leaders. A few Tibetan monks setting themselves on fire isn't going to accomplish squat.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
10. How are self-immolations violence? How are largely peaceful protests violence? They are Buddhists.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 04:16 AM
Feb 2012

When I say PRC, I am talking about the government, I'm not talking about the average Han Chinese person.

"A few Tibetan monks setting themselves on fire isn't going to accomplish squat."

They've got us talking, in fact, many around the world are talking. There is a tremendous geopolitical showdown occurring in Central, South, Southeast, and Northeast Asia and Tibet is a flash point. The world is changing, and it is up to all of us to stop making excuses for authoritarianism, stop saying nothing can be done and start supporting people-power. Can you imagine what Burma would be like today if Aung San Suu Kyi had said there is no hope and gone into peaceful exile? We are the one's we have been waiting for.

Vehl

(1,915 posts)
14. religious extremist ?
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 05:46 PM
Feb 2012

How exactly does self immolation as a form of protest qualify as religious extremism?

Maybe the Tibetan nun should just get some guns and start shooting no?

LAGC

(5,330 posts)
20. You tell me.
Thu Feb 16, 2012, 07:14 AM
Feb 2012

The only folks I hear setting themselves on fire over there are the Tibetan monks or the Falun Gong cultists.

I think such tactics do more harm than good, as they make the Chinese government forces look like the good guys trying to stop people from hurting themselves.

It only makes the protesters look more extreme in the eyes of the average Chinese, and turns people off to their message.

Vehl

(1,915 posts)
21. This is probably the only choice they have
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 11:01 PM
Feb 2012

First of all, non-violent protests..a.k.a Gandhian Ahimsa wont work against the PRC forces. They have no qualms about breaking up and such protestors, shooting em, or throwing em in the Chinese version of the Gulag..also known as the "politicial reeducation camps". Non-violent protests work only against an enemy who has basic human-rights concerns..not one who can easily order a blackout of the event(cos he has full control). Do you think the Nazi's would have stopped the pogroms if the Jews held non-violent protests and sit-ins in ww2 era Germany?

Second..most of China does not hear/know about anything that happens in Tibet or the other occupied parts of China. The internet, and the News media are heavily censored and any village/region that protests its cut off from the rest of the area till its "pacified".
A good example of this is the case of Chinese who migrate to the US. I have some friends who claim they never even heard of the riots/issues/abuses in Tibet till they came to the west. Any such news regarding Tibet is heavily censored in China, and pretty much the only form of news most non-Tibetan Chinese, especially the ruling Han's get is through government run media/news outlets. This means the vast majority of Chinese public dont even know there is a problem in Tibet, let alone its details. Of course the "average" Chinese will have no-opinion and/or negative opinion of the Tibetans, given the one sided story the news outlets give.

The peaceful nature of the monks and nuns prevents them from using arms to fight the occupation...which would not be successful in the first case given how isolated the region is, and the heavily armed PRC troops stationed there. This forces them to use the only(?) other form of protest they can use...self immolation. If they had gone on rallies/protest marches, they will be beaten up, shot or tortured in the reeducation camps. Self immolation, in contrast ideally(in the minds of the protestors) both serve as a form of protest as well as a hedge against future torture of the protesting individual. This is the same way why some soldiers/partisans/revolutionaries during ww2 (and in other conflicts) chose suicide with their last bullet in the event they were about to be captured...because capture means a fate worse than death. Furthermore in Asian countries self-immolation has historically been seen as a form of protest, and has symbolic connotations. Such acts might garner the support the majority Chinese and other Asian countries more so than blowing up a few PRC officers would.

Thus, calling these people religious extremists makes no sense, if one looks at the situation they are in.



David__77

(23,367 posts)
7. Lol at the Qinghai, Gansu, and Sichuan inside "Tibet border."
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 03:50 AM
Feb 2012

"Greater Tibet," indeed. Qinghai is majority Han, with only one-fifth Tibetan. There are more Han in Qinghai than Tibetans in the whole Tibet Autonomous Region. The area outlined as "Tibet" is definitely majority Han... What is the point of such an alleged border?

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
8. That is the historic border.
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 03:59 AM
Feb 2012

Here this map might explains the territorial divisions since 1950:



Why would you think that just because the PRC moves people onto the land that it stops being Tibetan? I would note that to legally relocate in the PRC a permit is required (and it's been that way since 1958) under what is known as the Hukou system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system

What is the point of denying the previous border? Why defend the imperialism of the PRC?

Vehl

(1,915 posts)
16. It's a known fact that a certain poster defends all actions of the PRC
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 05:50 PM
Feb 2012

all you have to do is to do a google search on democraticunderground with the relevant keywords to confirm this fact.

Btw excellent post.
K&R

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
18. Oh I'm well-aware of that...
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 06:04 PM
Feb 2012

...but rather than getting confrontational it is just better to hoist the deniers by their own petards.

Thank you. Aloha.

Vehl

(1,915 posts)
23. yes
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 11:03 PM
Feb 2012

Anyone who does not support the PRC is a McCarthyite ...especially if they are liberal democrats.

you can have the last say.
cheers

marasinghe

(1,253 posts)
31. to be fair - perhaps he meant Eugene McCarthy.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 03:10 AM
Feb 2012


i believe there were times in its past - when China prided itself on being a nation which, on principle, did not invade other countries.
that principle seems to have died with Dr. Sun Yat Sen. even his son-in-law did not appear to adhere to it.

Tibet has now disappeared into the resource hole.

Burma could be the scene of the next treasure hunt. the chief of its junta has more connection to China, than to Myanmar. there are supposedly over a million Chinese migrants, illegally mining the northern provinces of Burma.

who knows what's going on in Bhutan, Nepal and Sikkim; those tiny little countries control the headwaters of great Asian rivers. and water is the once & future oil of this planet.

 

BuroshKozorg

(21 posts)
26. Acceptable irredentism?
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 12:05 AM
Feb 2012

Only the far west of Qinghai has been majority Tibetan. The rest of it has been mostly a melting pot of many ethnicities. The eastern part of the area of Qinghai was under the control of the Han Dynasty about 2000 years ago. It was a battleground during the Tang and subsequent Chinese dynasties when they fought against successive Tibetan tribes. Until 1724 Qinghai was under local Mongol control. In that year the Xining Prefecture, with borders which eventually became Qinghai province later down the road.

What's equally as interesting is that Aksai Chin, Arunachal Pradesh were considered as part of Tibet Proper but are conspicuously absent from the map of "Greater Tibet"

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
27. Lines on a map...
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 12:27 AM
Feb 2012

...and I would note that India and the PRC are still fighting over Arunachal Pradesh: http://tinyurl.com/8xhoaxy

I mean hey, if the PRC wants to pull out of Tibet, grant it independence, and do so as part of a greater border agreement with India putting to end this whole issue I doubt the Tibetan government would oppose. But that's not going to happen because the PRC cares more about colonizing and exploiting Tibet than they do about inconvenient ideas like self-determination and human rights. I think the above map is drawn that way so as to encompass areas that were nominally under Tibetan control until 1950, use existing easy to draw demarcations, and so as not inflame any tension with India, which in its grace has granted refuge to the Dalai Lama and tens of thousands of Tibetans from the abusive tyranny of the PRC government. This isn't about race so much as it is about fundamental questions of international law.



Here is an 1877 American map of the region drafted for the Library of Congress:

 

BuroshKozorg

(21 posts)
28. So here are more maps:
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 12:59 AM
Feb 2012

And here is a map drawn up in 1914 by Rand McNally, in "The New Student's Reference Work.":

A map from 1850 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Asien_Bd1.jpg

An earlier map from Germany: "Das Chinesische Reich, mit Seinen Schutzstaaten Nebst dem Japanischen Inselreiche", Meyer’s Hand Atlas, 1850:
(Although Japan is also in Yellow, the title says that it is a map of the "China, along with the Japanese Island-Empire&quot
From the Taiwan National Historical Museum

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
29. In failing to address...
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 01:42 AM
Feb 2012

...any of my points. You just show why the argument that map demarcation is all-important in determining such questions is irrelevant. What possible justification is there for the military occupation of Tibet other than the construction of empire? If we were to go by either of those maps Korea would still belong to Japan!

The Lines according to the Simla Accord of 1914 between Britain and Tibet, that China walked away from that would have established joint administration over "Outer Tibet"



Red = Outer Tibet - Joint China-Tibet
Cyan = Tibet
Yellow = Tibet/India - "The McMahon Line"

Simla Convention

 

Liora24

(34 posts)
30. Complaining that "Tibet is too big"
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 02:24 AM
Feb 2012

Is essentially blaming the victim.

Once China gets the heck out of Tibet, then they can say as much as they want about "irridentism" or whatever. Until then they have no right to complain. The bottom line is that the military occupation of Tibet, the daily murder of hundreds or even thousands of Tibetans, and the steady colonization of Tibet are immoral and contrary to any humanistic belief.

In any case the maps which show Tibet to be a part of China are irrelevant since they were made in the "age of colonization" and thus reflect a Eurocentric prejudice of lumping all "Asians" or "Africans" together. In Africa they basically took this practice to the utmost by drawing borders however they felt like, splitting up tribes which had been at peace for hundreds of years, and then gerrymandering other tribes together to create conflict.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
32. Thank you!
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 03:36 AM
Feb 2012

To begin to defend what has happened in Tibet since 1950 requires the burying of many truths. The PRC had no right to force itself upon Tibet military, sack thousands of religious sites, and create an economic system designed to exclude and denigrate Tibetans. In this regard, the PRC made a choice and it is wicked and inexcusable. Considering that the cadres of the PRC have gone to such an extent to denounce imperialism, that they would so nakedly engage in it themselves is rank hypocrisy.

Welcome to DU!

Vehl

(1,915 posts)
15. BS
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 05:48 PM
Feb 2012

As ellisonz pointed out clearly in the previous post, its "majority han" NOW only because of the Chinese government's policy of settling the hans on occupied land.

Just dont assume everyone is ignorant of history and would lap up the drivel spewing from the propaganda sewers of the Chinese government.



dreamnightwind

(4,775 posts)
11. K & R for Tibet!
Tue Feb 14, 2012, 08:00 AM
Feb 2012

This all started the year I was born. I'm no longer young, and I can't believe this oppression is allowed to continue.

I had the fortune to study with several Lamas who had fled Tibet for the U.S. to escape persecution. Their lives and teachings were the purest form of spirituality I have found. Their stories of what happened to Tibet at the hands of the Chinese were horrific.

Anyone that doesn't know these people and their teachings, please take a closer look, this is one of the great injustices of our time, they are gentle and peaceful people and have a lot to teach the world if their culture is allowed to survive.

Vehl

(1,915 posts)
17. +1
Wed Feb 15, 2012, 05:55 PM
Feb 2012

I had the opportunity to meet some of the Tibetan lamas in India, not to mention the Tibetan refugees who escape from Tibet every year. Their tales of oppression are heart breaking. I identify with their plight.

My advice for the Tibetan people is to hold on tight, there will be light at the end of the tunnel, and one day the children of Tibet will have their motherland back.




"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS."
~ Mahatma Gandhi

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
22. Never could understand why we involve ourselves
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 11:03 PM
Feb 2012

in so many other countries problems but, damned if we won't go after China for their treatment of Tibetans. Aren't we supposed to be all about religious freedom. Oh wait, that's right... that's just a nasty rumor I heard.

ellisonz

(27,711 posts)
24. I think it's important to not forget...
Fri Feb 17, 2012, 11:11 PM
Feb 2012

...how extended we became as a result of the Cold War. At the same time, the PRC is our largest trading partner and yes, we ought to be concerned with human rights, in fact, we are party to several treaties that exactly call for our advocacy thereof.

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