Under New Law, France Would No Longer Be Sexual Playground of Men Like Dominique Strauss-Kahn

[redqueen]

http://www.truth-out.org/under-new-law-france-would-no-longer-be-sexual-playground/1328824750

(snip)

In the midst of these sordid disclosures, a major political milestone took place in the French Parliament on December 6, 2011. All political parties in the National Assembly signed a resolution that "Reaffirms the abolitionist position of France, the objective of which is ultimately a society without prostitution." Significantly, this means that France does not recognize prostitution as "sex work," nor does it support legislation legalizing brothels and pimping. Legislators resolved that legal acceptance of prostitution is incompatible with French policies that promote gender equality and human rights. In supporting the resolution, legislators spoke about the failure of legalized prostitution systems in other European countries, which have become magnets for organized crime, and encourage violence against women.

The cross-party resolution was a follow-up to a yearlong French parliamentary information mission that heard testimony from various groups and individuals relating to prostitution law reform in France. Author and historian, Malka Marcovich, who testified at the hearings, remarked that the strong report of the committee "shows that the cultural stereotype of the French male's irrepressible sexual needs, enshrined in an archaic vision of French culture, can be opposed in the name of a revolutionary French vision of human dignity, equality and liberty."

The most far-reaching recommendation of the mission is a law proposal whereby prostitution users could face penalties of six months in jail and/or a fine of 3,000 euros. The proposed French legislation follows the model that is already in force in most of the Nordic countries, which is built on the public consensus that the system of prostitution promotes violence against women by normalizing sexual exploitation. Thus, in a society that aspires to advance women's equality, it is unacceptable for men to purchase women for sexual exploitation, whether rationalized as a sexual choice or as "sex work."

The Nordic model does not penalize the persons in prostitution, but makes resources available to them. Instead, it targets and exposes the anonymous perpetrators - the buyers, mostly men, who purchase mainly women and children for sexual services. The key to the law's effectiveness lies not so much in penalizing the men, but in removing the invisibility of the buyers and making their crimes public. Men fear being outed as prostitution users.

(snip)

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. "The Nordic model does not penalize the persons in prostitution, but makes resources available."

Using this model for the war on drugs, how much effect would prosecuting only buyers have?

If prostitution is a social problem which is inconsistent with civilized society, by what logic do you prosecute only one of the parties to it?

Disparate legal treatment isn't equality. The entire premise of this law is that women aren't culpable for their actions.

[redqueen]

3. Drugs are not people, so the comparison is invalid.

The effect is to reduce demand, and to make the idea of buying sex unacceptable.

The logic of prosecuting only the demand side is obvious. If we are operating under the assumption that the majority of the women who decide to rent out their bodies are doing so not because they love the idea, but because they are under some kind of duress (trafficked, addicted, abused/PTSD sufferers, etc.) then the idea is to provide them with the resources to find a job that they *do* enjoy doing.

[lumberjack_jeff]

7. Sex isn't people either, so the comparison is valid.

By all means, continue encouraging prostitutes to find other work.

But in most of the US both prostitutes and their clients are prosecuted, prostitutes are encouraged to find other work, trafficking is prosecuted vigorously and it still hasn't eliminated the trade.

Everyone works under duress. If you don't work, you don't have anyplace to live. If prostitution paid like McDonalds, Fewer people would choose it.

Human trafficking isn't affected by the French proposal. The exploited girls will still stand on the streetcorner, just as always. Prosecution is the most effective form of intervention if you want someone to change their behavior.

[redqueen]

12. Prostitutes are people.

Why are you being disingenuous?

When people use drugs, they are using a product. A thing. That is very much not the case when they buy sex.

In the US prostitutes are prosecuted even when they're victims of trafficking.

Your statement that human trafficking isn't affected by this method is factually wrong. Apparently you haven't read about this system, which started in Sweden, was adopted in Norway and Denmark, and has now been also adopted by France.

You might want to read up on it, it will most likely (hopefully) spread to many other countries.

[lumberjack_jeff]

28. I can't reconcile two contradictory belief systems

a) Women are strong and capable. They are fully the equal of any man and should enjoy the same rights, responsibilities and expectations.
b) Women who make bad choices are victims. We must prosecute the men who are parties to those bad choices because if a man and a woman agree to some course of action, but to a passer-by the agreement seems unjust, unfair or unseemly against the woman, then society should intervene to protect her from victimization. She needs help, he needs prosecution. In this way there appears to be a spectrum of agency, "Adults" > "women" > "children and the mentally unfit."

As a practical matter, the "help" she's getting is no help at all. Unless she is arrested, the sex trade continues uninterrupted (but the price goes down because an undiminished supply chases a somewhat diminished demand) and pimps and traffickers never fear prosecution.

If a guy buys street drugs from a dealer who spends the proceeds to buy weapons to prosecute a gang war, it's a tragedy, but everyone who is a party to it "chose their life of crime".

Do women ever "choose a life of crime"? Not that I ever hear, but that would go a long way to reassert the idea that women are capable of agency of their own lives.

[LadyHawkAZ]

18. They don't stand on the streetcorner and never have.

The exploited girls and women will be indoors, hidden and abused like always, because trafficking is and has always been illegal. Abolitionists, on the other hand, WILL be standing on the streetcorner, crowing about the GREAT STRIDES they've made for equality. With their fingers in their ears.

I'm with redqueen, oddly enough, in that people really do need to read up on the Swedish model- not the official garbage that Sweden's been touting, but the reality. If they bothered to do that, they'd never support it. Not if their actual motives were equality and human rights, anyway. For those whose actual motive is to make society sex-negative, there's just no help- ideologues do not respond to facts.

You can point to the failure of abolition all throughout history, but it will do you little good. I've come to this conclusion after years of go-rounds on this subject- the abolitionist movement WANT us to die. If we can't be assimilated into a narrow "norm"- celibacy or marriage- they would rather we be killed off. It's the only way to explain how a group can claim to be advocating for human rights, yet support policies that are known to violate the human rights of the very people they claim to advocate for.

[redqueen]

19. "the abolitionist movement WANT us to die"

What an abhorrent thing to say.


"For those whose actual motive is to make society sex-negative, there's just no help- ideologues do not respond to facts."

Try sharing some of those facts. Apparently you know better than four whole countries. Please, do share.


Which of your human rights are being violated by making the buying of sex illegal?

[LadyHawkAZ]

21. Yes, it's a terrible thing to have to say

Now imagine living under it.

I have presented facts. Remember the last thread you posted? You didn't want to talk to me because I, like so many reputable people, attacked one of your heroes. Feel free to read all those links I put up that didn't interest you at the time.

Talk to these people and see if their human rights are intact. Remember, this all occurred in an area where purchasing sex is illegal.
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/01/police_pretty_s.php
http://theduckshoot.com/blog/eleven-albuquerque-prostitutes-murdered-%E2%80%93-so-what/#.Tzlfz7R62Sp
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,234078,00.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/student-charged-with-craigslist-prostitute-murder-1672256.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-5292868.html
and my personal favorite:
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-02-19/news/28634946_1_green-river-killer-life-terms-gary-ridgway
I wonder if those 49 women were human, with rights? What do you think?

[redqueen]

22. I didn't want to talk to you because it is my opinion that you argue in bad faith.

I know terrible things happen where prostitution is illegal. I don't think making it legal makes it any better at all.

Do you know the nationality of most of the prostitutes in Amsterdam, that bastion of legal prostitution?

[Aerows]

5. It's not the same thing for a few reasons

Underage women often get forced into prostitution. A man that hires a 13-year-old prostitute is no better than a child molester in my opinion, and "I didn't know her age" should not be allowed to be an excuse.

Is a 13 or 14 year old girl culpable for her actions if she was forced into it? No.

Even older women get stuck in untenable positions that essentially force them to be prostitutes. Prostitution is legal in Nevada, and many of the women in legal brothels there aren't allowed to have cars or leave at night by the brothel owners since they sign a contract.

It's one thing if a woman makes the choice to be an escort. The reason they go after the men, however, is because many don't have that choice.

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. A man who has sex with a 13 year old IS a child molester.

And he'll be prosecuted for it.

It really doesn't have anything to do with the OP.

[Aerows]

9. Yes, it does

Because by going after men who use prostitutes, you are going after men who also use underage prostitutes without knowing it (or caring).

I have no problems with things going on between consenting adults remaining with consenting adults. The issue is consent, and in prostitution, what actually constitutes consent becomes very gray. Would you say that a woman who knows that if she doesn't go take a customer, she'll get the shit beaten out of her by her pimp that waits by the door for her to come out with the money is consenting? I wouldn't.

It's a very gray area.

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. Pimping, exploitation, trafficking, and child molesting are all tangents.

They are all unequivocally bad so they are stapled onto the core issue of transactional sex. The purpose is to make the core issue so icky that it can't be discussed.

Stripped from all those secondary issues the consent of prostitution is completely unambiguous. "If you pay "X", I will do "Y". If both parties hold up their end of the bargain, it's a transaction. If not... it's either rape or robbery.

If the issue is managerial exploitation, unless you arrest the prostitute, you can't effectively go after their pimps or their traffickers. All you get is the clueless customer and his disgraced and broken family.

Personally, I think that the illegality of prostitution is fine, and I am okay with most of the burden of complying with the law falling upon the person selling. There are a lot of reasons that this the more effective approach.

[Snake Alchemist]

24. Unless you are famous. nt

[JDPriestly]

16. The point is not to punish women for having sex.

The point is to punish the men who view women as objects to be bought and sold and exploited for sex.

The law would not punish men for having sex in relationships that are not exploitative.

This approach would work in the US, but I don't know that it will work with the older generation in France.

On the other hand, the younger generation in France may, like our own younger generation, view male/female roles as more equal and welcome this law.

The attitudes that lead to the exploitation of women are most prevalent among men over 50 in my view, but that is just my impression and not based on some scientific evidence. There really isn't much you can do about this other than educate younger people to understand how much women are capable of, how much we are really worth.

[Loudmxr]

2. You mean now I have to go to Thailand??...OK better food.

[redqueen]

4. Check this out.

http://secretdiaryofadublincallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/02/a-thankyou-letter-to-punters/

[dana_b]

10. everybody should read that letter

that is amazing, eye opening and gut wrenching. Thanks for pointing it out.

[redqueen]

13. It is my very great pleasure to share it here.

I may make it the subject of another OP, if someone else doesn't beat me to it.

[RueVoltaire]

15. Wow - that was powerful! Thank you for posting that.

To anyone who repeats the old adage "prostitution is the oldest profession in the world", I make sure to tell them it's also the oldest form of sexual abuse.

[redqueen]

20. My pleasure.

I would hope that someone else might share it as an OP. I get enough flak for raising these issues here.

[ieoeja]

23. Odd wording for a Dublin Call Girl.

"Thankyou for making me be the strongest bitch that ever lived."

In Ireland, B**** and C*** are reversed from the American standard. You absolutely, positively do *not* call an Irish woman B****. While she may proudly claim to be a powerful c***.

[FrodosPet]

25. I always thought "punters" were gamblers

Or the guy who kicked the ball on 4th down. Never realized it applied to prostitution consumers as well.

As for the meat of your post, yes, men need to learn to keep their pants on - especially if, like yours truly, they are middle aged and overweight.

Less f***ing, more talking (except to the majority of women who don't WANT to talk to your old ugly fat ass - then leave them alone)!

[redqueen]

26. I figured it was Irish slang.

I'm just glad she feels stronger now, and has more self-esteem.

[stevenleser]

29. In the UK, any consumer of any product or service is a 'punter'

It is not confined to any particular service or merchandise.

[oldhippie]

6. Oh noooooes ......

Looks like lip service so far. We'll see what they actually pass in the way of law.

BTW, on the left of my screen as I type this is a DU ad from ColumbianCupiddotCom, complete with some nice half-naked young girls.

[redqueen]

14. I have every confidence that they will follow the same method

as the Nordic countries. Time will tell, but I am optimistic.

And yes, about that ad... just another harmless consequence of commodifying sex.

[JustAnotherGen]

11. This is excellent

But to be effective they are going to have to throw a lot of the police force down along the southern coast - start May 7th (about a week before Cannes) and end the first week of October (their yacht regatta in St. Trop).

The 'mediterannean' men and women (Prostitutes both male and female) come out in full force at that time. Be an affluent women in your mid 30's on vacation there with other women or walking around by yourself and you can't get from Le Senequier to Chez Joseph (two hot spots at the St. Trop port 3 doors away from each other) without getting propositioned. It's even more aggresive for men.

But keep in mind - there are 'older' French people that think women smoking and walking are Prostitutes so go figure. . . will be very interesting to watch how this plays out.

[closeupready]

17. Very excellent news. Glad to hear this. K&R

So much slavery goes on under the guise of "prostitution".

[FrodosPet]

30. What does everything think of the reverse situation?

http://www.canada.com/topics/travel/story.html?id=a62567b9-2186-4f07-b2b9-d55f9fd39d61&p=1

Women seeking beach boys

In winter, a tourist woman's fancy lustily turns to thoughts of sex. By the thousands they descend on the Caribbean every year, women driven by one urge: to spend a week or two sleeping with local "beach boys" and paying them back in drinks, meals, gifts and cash.

- snip -

All the coverage begged an essential question: Is sex tourism by women any better or worse than sex tourism by men?

Does it just represent a new twist on exploitation of the Third World poor- in other words, prostitution with the roles reversed, the woman paying the man? Or is it simply a case of women exercising their right to choose what to do with their bodies?

- snip -

-----------------------------------------------------------

[stevenleser]

32. You are not going to get an answer because that destroys the meme some are trying to sell.

Men selling themselves to women or other men means that prostitution isn't a women's rights issue and they do not want to hear anything about it.

[varelse]

31. this is good news

thank you for sharing it.