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Thu Jun 13, 2013, 09:41 PM

This is not about Obama or Snowden, this is about the corporate takeover of our democracy

Last edited Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:20 PM - Edit history (1)

We will get to the NSA scandal, but first I want everyone to take a moment to think back to 2008 when a few large banks nearly brought down the American economy. Most of us remember the darkness of those days very clearly, I will never forget the day that I went to work and saw 25% our workforce laid off in a single day.

I want you not just to think about how you were affected by the crisis however, I want you to think about what that crisis means about the way our economy and our government are structured. I want you to think about how the owners of these banks have become so powerful that their failure could bring down the entire US economy.

Now think about this in terms of politics and consider what this means in terms of Presidential power. Too often we only look at what each President did, we can see that Bush was a royal fuck up in everything he did but that really does not tell us nearly as much as we often believe it does. We also can see that Obama pushed some financial stimulus that did help get the economy back on track, but that is also not the key issue here.

The key issue is that despite anything that Bush did or Obama did the same system is in place that has existed for years. The reforms that have been made to the system are pretty minimal and not a single banker was held accountable for their role in the collapse.

We have had some very heated debates on DU about the lack of prosecution of the bankers not so much because we disagree on whether or not bankers should be prosecuted, in fact most people here seem to be in agreement that they should be prosecuted. What the division always revolves around is Obama's role, we yell at each other and divide ourselves over whether or not we think Obama has handled the situation well. Yet in debating Obama's role as an individual we often miss the big picture and we fail to recognize the system that Obama stepped in to. It is also the system that Bush stepped into, it is the system that Clinton stepped into, it is the system that our nation has been building for hundreds of years now and it has lots of powerful interests invested in it.

The bankers proved to us that they were so powerful that they hold the ability to collapse the entire global economy, do you not think that might cause Obama to pause before he prosecutes any of them? If they have the ability to collapse the global economy they have the ability to do a lot of other things that we can only speculate about as well, if one of them were to be prosecuted and the others wanted revenge they could screw a lot of people over very easily.

So how does this relate to the NSA scandal? Well we are falling for the same thing again, we are debating Obama's role in the scandal rather than recognizing the larger powers that exist.

The NSA was founded in 1952 and they have always been a very secretive organization, we really don't know what they have been up to for the last sixty years because they reveal very little about their operations to us. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg when we are talking about metadata, the NSA undoubtedly has tons of information that we don't know anything about. This is a spy agency that has been operating in the dark under several Presidents now.

A lot of people say Obama should have issued an executive order to stop this spying. I certainly wish he had the power to do that, but let's be honest about just how corrupted our government has become and consider how far back this corruption goes. The NSA has been spying on Americans for the last sixty years, they have enormous databases of who knows what kind of information and there are powerful people who no doubt use these databases to look up information for reasons that are not in any way noble. They want you to think it is all about fighting terrorism, but you would have to be pretty naive to believe they are only looking at suspected terrorists and not monitoring their political opponents. Having this massive spy network no doubt benefits some powerful people, how do you think they would react if Obama tried to shut down their operation with an executive order?

I am not trying to defend Obama nor am I trying to blame him, what I am trying to do is make us all consider how little this has to do with any of the specific individuals involved in the case and how much it has to do with a rotten system that has been built up over the years. The reality of this case is the reality of damn near every story that hits the news, wealth has been so far concentrated at the top in American society that our democracy does not work any more. We can keep electing all the Presidents we want, but no single President is going to change this because the real power brokers are the people like the bankers who nearly collapsed the economy, when a few individuals amass so much money that they can bring down the entire economy if they want to no President is going to mess with them.

That is unless we push to change the system. The focus should not be on pushing to change Obama, the focus should be pushing to change the system. It is a system that has been in place long before Obama and it is a system that will be in place long after Obama unless we push to change it.

The corporate bigwigs want us to be debating Obama because they know that divides us. What they don't want us to be doing is they don't want us to be debating the NSA's powers, they know that if we were to focus on the system rather than specific individuals we would all see how fucked up their system is and we would demand real change. They want us to believe that the only way to bring change is to elect new people to office, but they never want us to think about challenging the very system that those new people are stepping into. They want us to believe the President is all powerful because if we realized that the President is not as powerful as the corporate interests are the illusion of democracy would disappear.

Let's not fight about Obama, let's fight the real enemies.

90 replies, 11630 views

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Reply This is not about Obama or Snowden, this is about the corporate takeover of our democracy (Original post)
Bjorn Against Jun 2013 OP
Gregorian Jun 2013 #1
Dustlawyer Jun 2013 #54
Gregorian Jun 2013 #71
hopemountain Jun 2013 #82
Dustlawyer Jun 2013 #87
fasttense Jun 2013 #85
Octafish Jun 2013 #88
ruffburr Jun 2013 #2
octoberlib Jun 2013 #3
Bjorn Against Jun 2013 #5
snappyturtle Jun 2013 #10
CrispyQ Jun 2013 #50
WovenGems Jun 2013 #74
octoberlib Jun 2013 #4
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #6
Phillip McCleod Jun 2013 #64
SHRED Jun 2013 #7
woo me with science Jun 2013 #8
Laelth Jun 2013 #41
truedelphi Jun 2013 #63
abelenkpe Jun 2013 #9
Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2013 #11
ljm2002 Jun 2013 #14
Rosa Luxemburg Jun 2013 #15
ljm2002 Jun 2013 #21
flobee1 Jun 2013 #31
felix_numinous Jun 2013 #45
fasttense Jun 2013 #86
snappyturtle Jun 2013 #12
ljm2002 Jun 2013 #13
alfredo Jun 2013 #16
slipslidingaway Jun 2013 #17
tblue Jun 2013 #26
slipslidingaway Jun 2013 #68
ErikJ Jun 2013 #18
tblue Jun 2013 #28
dreamnightwind Jun 2013 #56
Blue State Bandit Jun 2013 #19
Hekate Jun 2013 #20
slipslidingaway Jun 2013 #24
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #22
slipslidingaway Jun 2013 #23
Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #25
delrem Jun 2013 #27
Bjorn Against Jun 2013 #32
ReRe Jun 2013 #29
liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #30
mnhtnbb Jun 2013 #33
mother earth Jun 2013 #34
Civilization2 Jun 2013 #35
geek tragedy Jun 2013 #36
KoKo Jun 2013 #37
Rebellious Republican Jun 2013 #38
yardwork Jun 2013 #39
Laelth Jun 2013 #40
snagglepuss Jun 2013 #42
pmorlan1 Jun 2013 #43
GoneFishin Jun 2013 #47
Bjorn Against Jun 2013 #59
xtraxritical Jun 2013 #72
me b zola Jun 2013 #44
Demeter Jun 2013 #46
Bjorn Against Jun 2013 #62
Myrina Jun 2013 #48
calimary Jun 2013 #49
MrScorpio Jun 2013 #51
grasswire Jun 2013 #52
Octafish Jun 2013 #89
dmr Jun 2013 #53
timdog44 Jun 2013 #55
AikidoSoul Jun 2013 #57
Swede Atlanta Jun 2013 #58
sulphurdunn Jun 2013 #60
LineReply .
blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #61
socialist_n_TN Jun 2013 #65
MotherPetrie Jun 2013 #66
kwolf68 Jun 2013 #75
Doremus Jun 2013 #67
Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #69
mtasselin Jun 2013 #70
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #73
djean111 Jun 2013 #76
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #77
djean111 Jun 2013 #78
HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #79
woo me with science Jun 2013 #83
mettamega Jun 2013 #80
midnight Jun 2013 #81
woo me with science Jun 2013 #84
Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #90

Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 10:07 PM

1. People are so comfortable that they don't realize they're being robbed.

Gold is being artificially held down. The dollar is being artificially held up. It's a house of cards. And I see a parallel with how we're losing our representation. Citizens United diluted it one step further. When I say that people are comfortable, I mean that whenever we drive up to a gas station, there's gas. And even if it's expensive, it still provides us with personal power beyond that which any king before our times would have had at his disposal. On one hand we have power beyond dreams, yet on another hand we're in a pot of water that has been warming up.

My biggest concern for the human race is it's lack of responsiveness. And I think that's what we're talking about here. But it takes a certain level of consciousness before one can be responsive in a manner that promotes survival. I am having real doubts that the majority of us are awake. Forget Fox "news", as they don't even represent reality. I'm just hoping that the fraction of people who are still awake is greater than fifty percent. I use that fraction because that's how elections are won.

So we have our electronic fun devices, and our stupid lazy cars, and we think we've got it made. I believe that's pretty much at the heart of things. When I see Noam Chomsky on prime time tv, talking about reality, maybe then things will be turning around. Right now I see a lot of grown up irresponsible people. I'm ashamed for my country.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 03:35 PM

54. This is the point I have been trying to make! The solution to this problem is

COMPLETE CAMPAIGN FINANCE REFORM (CCFR). If we can get new politicians in office who have as their #1 priority to get elections publicly funded as opposed to the legal bribery we have now (Fund raisers with lots of $$$ and big agendas), we can eliminate the worst of the corruption and influence.

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 02:10 PM

71. It's a Catch-22. First the people need to know what is in their best interest. Then they can elect.

It's that first step that I keep addressing. When everyone is so comfy and happy (which it appears they are not, but really are in an absolute sense), they are unwilling to do the lifting it takes to improve their own lives, and that of the country.

I smoked cigarettes until I was confronted with patients smoking through tubes in their tracheotomies. It didn't take long before I realized what my habit was going to get me. I have slowly progressed through the decades to where I am nearly 60, and a competitive athlete. But years went by where I dissipated, not knowing what I was doing to my body.

This is happening in American public life. Coke, lousy food, retched entertainment, declining education, legal bribery as you mentioned...

Unconscious does not mean blind. It means a kind of blindness though. It's seeing something from another perspective.

I think the catch 22 is the consequence of propaganda. Post WW2. Then repealing the Fairness Doctrine. The drug war. Yes, that was more about giving gov't bigger control than anything to do with drugs.

How do we turn it around? How do we do what you propose? That is, how do we get people to actually vote in their best interest? The 1st Amendment won't let us pull Fox off the air. But it seems to me it's an education process. And judging from how well people have learned about global warming, I have to wonder if there's any hope. But it is possible. And I say that because I know people are being coerced into believing the propaganda. I always use this example- if even a tea party person goes to the doctor, and he says they have to have a coronary bypass, they'll believe the doctor. So it's not that they're just stupid and resist the fact that what they're doing to the planet is going to kill their grandchildren. It's that they've been programmed by their leader.

How do we turn this concerted effort to keep people stupid around? Because that is what it's going to take to get them to vote for politicians who are willing to stop the encroachment of corporate money into our public governance.

OK, now it's time to ride a mountain bike for a few hours. The redwoods await me!

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #71)

Sun Jun 16, 2013, 03:22 PM

82. yes, blinding people with lies is one way

- the other is poverty. so much is tied to poverty...hopelessness, drug & alcohol & sex addiction, HUNGER, homelessness, parentless children, domestic abuse. survival is the key issue for too many folks - they are not able to give much attention to anything more than surviving day to day.

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Response to Gregorian (Reply #71)

Tue Jun 18, 2013, 11:16 AM

87. I have posted this same message 100's of times here at DU,

Yours is the 1st thoughtful reply I have received. The "how to get it done" part is where I have struggled. We need the FCC to step in and bust up the media conglomerates and make it illegal to tell lies on the news (Fox had a case from Florida where the Court of Appeals said it was ok for them to lie b/c it's not news, it's entertainment). The FCC would need to be cleaned out since they are owned by the industry they purport to regulate. Until then, apathetic Americans will continue to sit on their couches and swallow crap!
Hope you enjoyed your ride!

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Response to Dustlawyer (Reply #54)

Mon Jun 17, 2013, 06:04 AM

85. It's NOT just the rich buying our democracy

It's that they CAN buy our democracy. What is wrong with a system that allows only a handful of greedy rich men and women to control 300 million people?

It's our entire economic system that is corrupt and broken. Everyday there is a new scandal about how some capitalists have rigged supposedly "free markets". From Libor rigging to currency manipulation it is ALL fixed in favor of the uber rich. If you put some regulations on these greedy rich people, they will work night and day to try and turnover those regulations. You have to take away their power and keep them from accumulating the power again. You have to get rid of the broken system, you have to get rid of capitalism.

Capitalism is at the heart of the dysfunction of our democracy. It allows a few people to abuse 300 million people with NO Repercussions. The economic system is broken and it has destroyed our political, religious, educational and family systems. It is at the heart of all the problems in America.

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Response to fasttense (Reply #85)

Tue Jun 18, 2013, 11:20 AM

88. ''Capitalism...allows a few people to abuse 300 million people with NO Repercussions.''

Thank you for putting it into words, fasttense -- perfectly.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 10:22 PM

2. That is the Elephant in the room-

I'm no rocket scientist but when the truth hits one in the ass you'd think it would garner some attention!

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 10:32 PM

3. It doesn't really matter who the President is right now.

We'd still be dealing with the same issues. If Bernie Sanders was President , he wouldn't be able to get shit passed. We need campaign finance reform but I have no idea how to accomplish this.

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Response to octoberlib (Reply #3)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:11 PM

5. I won't go so far to say it doesn't matter but...

I think the power of elected officials is greatly exagerrated, the system we have is largely controlled by money, make no mistake about it money greatly limits any President's power. There are some Presidents that are clearly better than others, but they all work under the same system and that system is totally corrupt. There is only one way to change it and that is to get people to talk about it and create a mass push for change.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #5)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:45 PM

10. Yes! nt

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Response to octoberlib (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:35 PM

50. We need campaign finance reform but I have no idea how to accomplish this.

Nor do I.



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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #50)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 04:47 PM

74. SCOTUS

Only the court stands in the way. Got your own SEAL team?

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 10:44 PM

4. Also, you hit the nail squarely on the head. nt

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:11 PM

6. Brilliant. I agree completely.

Those who criticize the NSA are not criticizing Obama but are criticizing an entrenched bureaucracy that exists for the benefit not of the American people but of the 1%.

This bureaucracy started right after WWII, and it just keeps growing.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:43 PM

64. succinct and exactly it. +100,000 for brevity.

 

the once bloated military-industrial establishment is now become the sprawling leviathan corporate-military-spy establishment.

it doesn't help that Americans are.. except us here at DU, of course .. blobs of ignorant dough. nobody thinks Obama can fix this by himself, or pins the blame for it on him. i support him, and want to hold his feet to his fire.. y'know.. like he asked us to.

maybe he can't fix it, but he can start the fixing process, and i think he wants to.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:23 PM

7. EXACTLY!

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:33 PM

8. K&R Note also the extremely disturbing propaganda machine

that the corporate plutocracy is creating and implementing to replace the free press of a democratic society. From the purchased mainstream media to the incessant political astroturfing of the internet, the propaganda machine in this country has never been more manipulative, dishonest, non-transparent, relentless, and determinedly pervasive, systematically infiltrating even discussion boards like DU.

What is being done to this country is well beyond creepy and disturbing at this point. We have been overtaken by corporatists intent on corporate fascism, and we have *already* been stripped of major foundations of our free society, including our right to privacy, our right to free speech, our right to protest, and the free press that was our most important alarm for and protection against government abuse and tyranny.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #8)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:07 AM

41. +1 Well said, woo. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #8)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 06:49 PM

63. + 1 here as well. n/t

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:41 PM

9. K&R

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:45 PM

11. Around the water cooler people are asking "why now?"

most knew that Bush was spying and those presidents before him. They ask why this old news - why did no one do anything about it?
The answer lies with Congress.

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Response to Rosa Luxemburg (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:03 AM

14. "Why now" is not really the relevant question...

...anyway, I would have responded, "Better late than never".

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:09 AM

15. no one bothered before yet it was common knowledge

the media have hyped this up now politically

We complained in 2002 but no one listened. We had a few congressmen who spoke out against it only to be shot down.

Better late than never - do you expect congress to change their law?

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Response to Rosa Luxemburg (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:38 AM

21. "Better late than never"...

..."- do you expect congress to change their law?"

Well, see, here's the thing. If we don't have this dialog, then I am 100% sure that Congress will not change the law. On the other hand, if enough discussion happens, and if a consensus emerges that this is overreach, and if enough people stay angry about it, then yes, the possibility for change exists.

So take your pick: 1 - not a chance of change; vs. 2 - a slim possibility of change.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 06:12 AM

31. if only congress represented its citizens...

but they have already been bought, their minds are already made up

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Response to Rosa Luxemburg (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:10 PM

45. 'Why now?' is a good question

I think the timing of the leak coming right after the debates about cutting social services and sequesters made the whole thing explode. People are hurting, then to be reminded that, oh by the way TRILLIONS are being used by the NSA to tap your phones and you can't do anything about that. Slap!

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Response to Rosa Luxemburg (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 17, 2013, 06:17 AM

86. Why NOW? Because.....

Capitalism has reached the inevitable destructive stage and there is nothing waiting in the wings to replace it. Many critics of capitalism have warned us that it always ends in disaster. But since Raygun, we allowed the capitalist to devour our country, we allowed the capitalists free reign over our entire American society and now it is on a rampage. It is devouring everything in sight and it will continue until it has left nothing in its wake.

Spying on Americans is just a symptom. Some very rich capitalists are making very big bucks off the spying, that's why Obama allows it, that's why the bushes implemented it. Capitalism works best, for the lucky handful of capitalists, if there is NO democracy, no freedom, no rights of the people. Capitalism works best in tyrannical societies and that's where America is headed unless the people rise up.

300 uber rich capitalists can NOT control 300 million people, if the people do not allow it.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:48 PM

12. Excellent.K&R I would love to hear from Naomi Klein. I just wonder hoe

she views what's going on in the greater scheme of things.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:59 PM

13. Hear, hear...

...I think your message here is very important. It's just another part of the military industrial complex, and these things have a huge amount of inertial power. Once it's in place, it is very hard to dismantle. And no President by himself will be able to do that. It will take a much broader groundswell of awareness and action to really change this system.

But I have hope. All of these systems that we humans devise, depend upon the consensus of the population that the system is tenable. Once that goes, the system can change in the blink of an eye.

Of course, then the question is, will the new system be better? We should start thinking now about how we want it to be, not just about how we don't want it to be.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:10 AM

16. knr

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:17 AM

17. knr, Strange Bedfellows Unite to Fight FISA Deal, 2008 ...

we have to move past the "my team" mentality for the people to have a chance.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7303961

And Jane Hamsher today ...

"...I went on Ed Shultz last night, and Fox deliberately today after yesterday’s hubub. It scares the bejesus out of the DC establishment of both parties to think that the left and right might align against the corporate interests that dominate the massive giveaways that keep happening no matter who’s in power.

Good. They should be scared."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3480169&mesg_id=3480169



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Response to slipslidingaway (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:25 AM

26. I've been saying we may need the Tea Party

to get incensed about this before anything can possibly change. Nobody but NOBODY cares what liberals, Occupy, or the ACLU has to say. But the Tea Party gets everybody's attention.

That's why I'm a little surprised some R/W talking heads have been freaking out over this. After all, they are part of the 'System'

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Response to tblue (Reply #26)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 10:39 PM

68. Having an obvious enemy helps, but we can find other areas ...

such as the FISA bill that was being debated at the time.

Also remember that the other side might see some in our party as part of the problem, but we need to find common ground when it affects the majority of the people IMHO.



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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:21 AM

18. The President is swept up into the system

It would take a president with the will and strength of an FDR or Teddy Roosevelt to fight and beat the "economic royalists" as FDR called them. " ".................AND I WELCOME THEIR HATRED!"

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Response to ErikJ (Reply #18)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:44 AM

28. You're about to get the meme

that FDR had a Democratic Congress, to which I hope you'll reply with this link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=186609&mesg_id=187398

It was a different time, etc. and so on. But what FDR did was unprecedented. The 'System' at that time was deeply ingrained in our economic culture, and probably no one thought it would be possible to confront, let alone reform. FDR knew he was taking a huge gamble, he could have lost everything, and he did it anyway. That took an enormous amount of courage and conviction. So we do have a precedent for reforming an economy against the will of the economic PTB, but we do not have anything like an FDR now. That's just the truth. And maybe no one today could take on this ginormous task and succeed. But could a person TRY to take it on, doing everything in their power, despite the risk of failure? I think so.

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Response to tblue (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 03:53 PM

56. Great post

Completely agree, and thanks for linking back to FDR's congresses, I didn't know that.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:27 AM

19. Nail... head.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:36 AM

20. Bjorn, I must've said this 20 times here in the past week

And NO ONE until you has picked up on it. Thank you for a long and detailed explication of corporate culture's place in this ungodly mess.

I have said for years that the real Big Brother is corporations, and that WE pay THEM for the privilege of them having all our personal information.

Hekate

So how does this relate to the NSA scandal? Well we are falling for the same thing again, we are debating Obama's role in the scandal rather than recognizing the larger powers that exist. Bjorn

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Response to Hekate (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:01 AM

24. Problem is that if you believed those who said such things ...

they were usually on the fringe of acceptable behavior. It does not matter what letter they had after their name, they were crazy, even though they both mentioned the rise of corporations as a problem.

Go team

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 01:05 AM

22. k&r thanks for posting.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 01:12 AM

23. Not answering any "auto" hate replies ...

sometimes, most of the time, we need to keep an open mind, just reading one view helps to keep us all "in place."

This speech was in 2003, but you can easily pick out the parts you agree with and those you do not, I was reminded of this when reading the thread about arming the Syrian rebels. Bottom line is we need to debate the issues, not the person!

You can easily listen to the speech and say I agree with this part and disagree with another segment, it is not some language that appeals to 'everyone.' Debate the issues and take a stance! Same could be said with Kucinich, you knew where he stood, there was no ambiguity.

Neo – CONNED ! - Speech on the House Floor - July 10, 2003

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3668081

I posted the speech in 2008, but I just realized DUer sam sarrha posted it shortly after it happened, with hardly a comment from the DU community.

""...Since the change of the political party in charge has not made a difference, who’s really in charge? If the particular party in power makes little difference, whose policy is it that permits expanded government programs, increased spending, huge deficits, nation building and the pervasive invasion of our privacy, with fewer Fourth Amendment protections than ever before?

......How did all this transpire? Why did the government do it? Why haven’t the people objected? How long will it go on before something is done? Does anyone care?

...In addition to publications, multiple think tanks and projects were created to promote their agenda. A product of the Bradley Foundation, the American Enterprise Institute (AEI) led the neocon charge, but the real push for war came from the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) another organization helped by the Bradley Foundation. This occurred in 1998 and was chaired by Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol. They urged early on for war against Iraq, but were disappointed with the Clinton administration, which never followed through with its periodic bombings. Obviously, these bombings were motivated more by Clinton’s personal and political problems than a belief in the neocon agenda.

...Let there be no doubt, those in the neocon camp had been anxious to go to war against Iraq for a decade. They justified the use of force to accomplish their goals, even if it required preemptive war. If anyone doubts this assertion, they need only to read of their strategy in “A Clean Break: a New Strategy for Securing the Realm.”


provocative speech by rep. Ron Paul..."Neo...CONNED!"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x4477


Edited on Sun Aug-03-03 11:18 PM by sam sarrha

"a starkly reveling anti NEOCON speech form 6-10-03, www.house.gov/paul click neo conned, i had to go to Yahoo, MSN was a dead end. this defines what neocon'ism actually is... a frightening story, i have to go study Machiavelli now, will get back ... this is all based on a 500 yr old mad man! i knew they were just $2,000 ..tinfoil lined 'suits'. the speech is fairly long, i was highlighting the important parts and most of it is yellow now... very well done work.. i am grateful and impressed. an ABSOLUTE MUST READ !!!!"




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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:07 AM

25. Clinton did repeal Glass-Steagal... n/t

 

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:33 AM

27. Obama and Bush have to figure in there somewhere.

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Response to delrem (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:05 AM

32. It is not that they don't have a role, the issue is that this is so much bigger than any one person

There are lots of people involved in this and the President may be the most powerful one of those people, but this is a system that is so entrenched that no President can simply change it on their own. When we fight over a person we have a lot of people who will defend that person based on his likability and we have others who don't like him and will attack him for anything. What ends up happening is we end up fighting over a personality while the same system keeps chugging along in the background. The point is that we need to focus on the real problem of an entrenched system that is totally broken and has been broken for years, we focus way too much on who is "in charge" when in reality when a system becomes entrenched the President can do very little to stop it without risking enormous consequences. If we focus on Obama the system will still be in place when Obama leaves office and we will turn to fighting about the next President, if we were to just focus on the system at the core of the problem rather than the personality we would be on a much better path to fixing the problem.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:50 AM

29. I always knew something was wrong....

K&R

... but I thought I had figured it all out. Then came the 2000 election and the 8 horrid years that followed. Then came Sept 2008, when the global economy turned belly-up, all because of Wall Street. All because of our economic system. And now, at long long last, the secrecy & money issue has boiled to the surface. You're right, Bjorn Against, the elephants in the room are The Corporation, the Secrecy Machine. Ike warned us of the MIC on his way out, but he was ignored. And here we are. The summer of 2013. Our Democracy and economy has gone to hell in a hand basket and even the President of the United States is powerless to change it, no matter who he/she might be, and Congress is bought and paid for by The Corporation and doing its bidding. We CAN NOT fall for the divide and conquer. We are all in the same boat.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:55 AM

30. My biggest political issue is education because my son has suffered so much, but this too

is related to the rich owning the entire country. Every single issue there is boils down to the rich owning the country. As much as I hate to put my passionate first key issue aside, I fear if I do not put it aside and concentrate on campaign finance reform my first passion will never come to pass. Campaign finance reform must be my number one issue if funding education is ever to be fulfilled. Confronting the fact that the rich own this country is our only hope of fixing any of our problems. None of our problems will ever be corrected without first correcting this one first.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)


Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 10:35 AM

35. Thanks you! Excellent post, best I have ever seen on DU!!!

 

"not a single banker was held accountable for their role in the collapse"

"wealth has been so far concentrated at the top in American society that our democracy does not work any more"

"the focus should be pushing to change the system"

"if we realized that the President is not as powerful as the corporate interests are, the illusion of democracy would disappear"

you sum up the situation perfectly,. and point out the method that has worked for the 1% for so long, divide the parties and misdirect as to where the real power is. This has worked our whole life times, lets change that fact.



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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 10:35 AM

36. Give ownership of the data to the customer, not the corporation.

Or, probably by necessity, make them co-owners.

Protect consumers against the corporations, and the government will be held at bay as well.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 10:35 AM

37. Recommend...OP and Thread Comments.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 10:38 AM

38. Spot on, I have been saying this for years, follow the money!

 



On Edit: K&R

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 10:39 AM

39. That's it. Great OP.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 10:57 AM

40. Very thoughtful and reasonable.

I was one of those who, a few days ago, argued that Obama could simply order the NSA to stop its data-collection activities, and I argued that he should do so. I have changed my mind on that. If he did issue such an order, it would probably be ignored and might lead to an outright coup. Obama's hands are tied.

This matter is far more complicated than most people realize, me included.

Thanks for your post.

-Laelth

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:22 AM

42. to read later

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:36 AM

43. Compromise

While I disagree about Obama's culpability I'm all for anything that will get everyone on board with fighting this NSA spying program that involves 1000s of corporate partners. Those that believe Obama is not at fault in any way fine, believe what you want, but please, please join the fight. I feel like I'm living in the Twilight Zone watching some of my fellow Democrats sit on the sidelines when the biggest fight of our lives is going on. No one should be MIA on this one.

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Response to pmorlan1 (Reply #43)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:54 PM

47. Agree 100% with ^^^ and this OP.

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Response to pmorlan1 (Reply #43)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 06:25 PM

59. My argument is not about excusing Obama, it is pointing out that this goes beyond any individual

I am not trying to say that Obama is without any fault, what I am arguing is that we focus way too much on the faults of an individual and it distracts us from the faults of the system. We like to believe that the President has the power to steer the country in the direction he wants to steer it, what often gets missed however is that there are some unelected people who have so much money and power that they have essentially become more powerful than even the President.

We can go after Obama until he leaves office, but the system will remain in place and then we will start going after the next President, and the next one, and the one after that, all while the real power brokers sit in their corporate suites and laugh because we tear ourselves up over individual people while their system remains firmly in place. We can choose to pretend the NSA scandal is about a single person or we can recognize that it is not about a person but rather about a system.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #59)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 03:55 PM

72. The President may not unilaterally change duly enacted law, that's Congress's job.

 

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:36 AM

44. K&R

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:52 PM

46. I love your handle

Is it a pun on "born again"? Very clever!

Also like your editorial.

Unfortunately, Obama is a front man for the power structure. He sold out to them, and convinced us that he was a candidate for reform. He lied, and he didn't deliver to the People. He's not defending and protecting the Constitution. We don't have to fight about this at all, it's a matter of record. What we DO have to do is realize that, unfortunately, he's on the enemies' side.

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Response to Demeter (Reply #46)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 06:42 PM

62. Thanks, yes it is a play off Born Again

I used to think pretty much like you think about Obama as well, but the more I think about it the more I realize just how complex the situation is. It is easy to say Obama sold out, it is far more difficult to put ourselves in his shoes. We don't know all the pressures that exists behind the scenes, we don't know about the blackmail that happens and we don't see first hand just how deeply entrenched the corporations are. It is easy for us to say that politicians need to grow a spine because we don't have any idea as to what happens when they do grow a spine. These are very powerful interests we are talking about, if Obama were to take such a bold move as to sign an executive order banning the NSA from spying all those people who built that spy network would be very pissed off. How would they react? I don't know but I suspect something this big would bring a lot more than harsh words, it would bring revenge and that act of revenge could potentially harm a lot of people.

I am not saying this to defend Obama, I am saying this because I think it is important that people think about the power that unelected wealthy people have on Washington. It is not about excusing Obama, it is about recognizing that there are people so powerful that they make even the President bow to their will. It is very dangerous to our democracy to have so much wealth concentrated in so few hands and that is what needs to be talked about.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:59 PM

48. If the system and those that run it are such powerful behemoths,

... how in Goddess' name can peons like the average folk change it, short of pulling a Guy Fawkes?

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 01:00 PM

49. "The NSA has been spying on Americans for the last sixty years..."

Consider (from Wikipedia):
Barack Hussein Obama II is the 44th and current President of the United States, the first African American to hold the office. Wikipedia
Born: August 4, 1961 (age 51), Honolulu, HI

The NSA has been spying on Americans for longer than Barack Obama has even existed.

Yeah, I know - I know - somehow it's still his fault ...

Funny - Randi Rhodes was talking about this today. How the lines between big business and government are so blurred as to be non-existent by now. How it's rarely mentioned while everyone is fulminating about the NSA - the distressing scope of those allowed access to all this classified and highly-sensitive info - are, invariably, CONTRACTORS. Business. Corporations. The private sector. Over and over in the coverage of this I've heard references to these jobs have been outsourced. Privatized. Probably with a contract bid so low it's like taking a big piece of Swiss cheese with you to wrap around you for warmth as you go climbing Mt. McKinley. No accountability - it's once-removed into private industry. If the government were running this directly, there'd ostensibly be SOME public accountability (although bush/cheney certainly left that one in shreds with their no-bid contract orgy to their friends in banking and business and industry).

This is what happens when you cut back government services - and therefore capabillities, and accountabilities - in order to let the unfettered free market rule. When you say "gummnt BAAAAAAD! NO gummnt!" Then you have no oversight, no curbing or checking of - or restrictions on - rapacious, marauder, robber-baron behavior. You get Pirates on Parade. It's not "privatizing," it's more like "PIRATIZING." Unrestrained. And look what can happen. Did ANYBODY have any sort of leash on these reckless thieving corporate vultures and vampires or were they left to run amok without ANY supervision? And we should just trust 'em to do the "right thing"? Leave 'em on the "honor system" - when in actuality, they have none, and their only "honor" is how much money they can make, or steal? After all, who oversees this, if government contracts out all these government jobs? Are the contractors beholden to the taxpayers then? Answerable to us taxpayers then? Have any of them been questioned or investigated for the laissez-faire piracy and free-wheeling highway robbery during bush/cheney?

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:51 PM

51. Brilliant essay

Thank you very much.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 03:09 PM

52. General Alexander, NSA director, is more powerful than the POTUS

Yes. It has been revealed at wired magazine in the last few days. Alexander has his own military forces! And he has dossiers on every one of us, and can review and even predict our actions and communications.

Alexander was hand chosen by Rumsfeld and closely allied with Cheney and the other henchmen.

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Response to grasswire (Reply #52)

Tue Jun 18, 2013, 11:22 AM

89. He's like Admiral Poindexter, except without the criminal record.

Both are fine men, outstanding citizen-patriot-warriors, protecting life, liberty and the American Express way of life through debt-bondage.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 03:31 PM

53. K&R

Excellent post.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 03:39 PM

55. I think we over rate the President.

Clinton said it, and I paraphrase - when you finally get to be president, you don't get to decide anything. It would be possible to have a virtual president and not make any difference.

The problems of this country are globalization and corporatism and military presence in other countries.

Globalization. I am jealous of what we had. We worked hard to get to a good level of living and other countries need to do the same thing in their countries. America has introduced our way of life to people who are not ready for it at this point. An agrarian way of life and no TV and no internet and all the other what we call perks are not necessary to have a good life.

Corporatism. And this may be the most difficult to solve. All the leaders of the present corporations need to be expelled to the country where they make the most money. Send them to Bangladesh, Indonesia or any third world country. Then tax the products they want to import to us to the point that it would be competitive to make that product here, with levels of insurance, pensions and safety precautions.

Bring all our troops home, and abandon all bases in foreign countries. What other country has a military presence in America? I doubt any.

Now this does not seem to address the spying, but it would not be needed if we did these things.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 05:38 PM

57. Yep. You've got it right. Too many of us think that President Obama is some kind of

all powerful being.




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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 05:45 PM

58. Thanks for the post.......

 

You have hit on the things about these revelations that are the most disturbing to me....

(1) The sheer amount of un-targeted data that is being collected
The NSA is simply using a huge vacuum to amass unimaginable volumes of data on all forms of electronic communication. The revelations so far have focused on electronic communication such as telephone calls, e-mails, etc. Apparently there are more revelations coming that wouldn't surprise me to show warehousing of all kinds of other information such as bank records, miles driven on a licensed car, financial records, medical records, etc.

(2) The entrenched power and self-perpetuating importance of the NSA
They, like the military-industry complex, have taken on a self-fulfilling sense of importance that considers any challenge or question of their practices, abuses, etc. as being equal to treason. They are not subject to any meaningful oversight by Congress because the rules of oversight mean that anything a member of Congress MAY (and that is a big assumption they will actually learn anything meaningful) about their operations must remain silent, i.e. the Member may be prosecuted for treason and espionage if they reveal anything.

(3) The entire system is largely run by private companies
The vast majority of people involved in the mass collection, storage and mining of this data are employed by private corporations. This not only means that the data is even more readily available to others in the 1% but these corporations are not bound by any 4th Amendment limitations. They might be guilty of other crimes if the data is misused but they are not subject to the 4th Amendment. So the NSA has effectively shielded itself from any 4th Amendment concerns by just hiring private individuals to do their dirty work.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 06:31 PM

60. The organizational principle

of the next American Revolution will be campaign finance reform. Everything rests upon it. Nothing can change for the better without it.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 06:32 PM

61. .

.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:57 PM

65. End stage capitalism......

For almost a century this has been happening, it's just accelerated the closer it comes to the end. Read some Marx, Lenin, and Trotsky. It's all there, written over a hundred years ago.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 09:28 PM

66. I disagree. A real leader, who really wants to change the obscene status quo, doesn't lead

 

the way Obama has -- by appointing and nominating people from the same pool of corporate scum -- in some cases the very same people from the Bush and Clinton administrations -- to important positions in his administration.

Obama has repeatedly shown that he has NO real interest in changing the fundamental status quo that favors the 1% and screws the 99%. You are either part of the problem or part of the solution, and he has not acted as a leader who wants to be part of the solution. Despite all his high-flown words, he's just fine with the status quo.

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Response to MotherPetrie (Reply #66)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 05:10 PM

75. Yep, a colossal failure


And now people will think Obama represents the progressive intellect in this nation and we'll likely sway back "to the right" in a response to Obama's term.

Things will need to get a lot worse before they get better...I suspect a new Conservative revolution will finish off the United States as we know it. But after the dust settles I would hope new leaders would emerge.

I don't want Obama, Hillary...NONE of 'em, all part of the aristocracy.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 09:56 PM

67. What it's all about. n/t

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:07 PM

69. Funny, I thought this was all about how far off track we can get from world peace.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 12:06 PM

70. Time

The time has come that candidates across the nation have to campaign about changing the system. When they get elected it is up to us to hold their feet to the fire, we as a nation don't have a lot of time to get this done, the corporations are getting so powerful and control every facet of our government. We need and orderly revolution in this country so it can go back to We the People.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 04:43 PM

73. I recommended your OP, although I find parts of it

 

deeply troublesome. I'm hard pressed to say why, except for this nagging feeling that you may be achieving the exact opposite of that which you intend. In urging us not to 'fight about Obama,' you relegate him to little more than a ceremonial head of state. And I'm pretty sure that's not what you intend.

For example, you say you wish Obama had the power to issue an Executive Order prohibiting the NSA from any domestic intelligence collection activities. He does have the power to issue Executive Orders. But he has not. Should we not ask and debate why he has not?

It's a good discussion, though. One final question: you say "let's fight the real enemies." What happens if we discover that we have found the real enemy and it is us? Should we keep fighting or stand down?

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #73)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 05:21 PM

76. To be fair, when Obama is criticized, we are reminded that he has a GOP Congress and

"his hands are tied".
I am starting to think of him as merely ceremonial. That is, oddly, more comforting than thinking he has power but chooses to play chess instead of using it.
I do think the fighting about Obama is a result of some believing any criticism of the government while Obama is president is a criticism of Obama - and therefore must be shut down.
The NSA stuff bothers me no matter who is president. And I don't get the smearing of Snowden - after all, no one in Washington has said Snowden is lying, and that is the important thing to keep in mind, not Snowden's alleged motives.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #76)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 05:39 PM

77. Agreed. The NSA stuff would be deeply odious and an abomination, even

 

in the unlikely event that Sanders or Warren were president. The smears directed at Snowden -- coming even from sitting U.S. Senators -- are unseemly and reminiscent of darker days in the history of the Republic. (Have you no shame, Ms. Feinstein, have you no sense of decency, Madam?)

I'm pretty sure that Presidents can issue EOs, irrespective of who controls Congress. Thinking here of Truman's EO desegregating the armed forces. Of course, that ignores the real political costs of presidential muscle-flexing via EO (a variant, I'm guessing, of the "keeping gunpowder dry" argument). That is, a president who thinks he or she may require the assistance of Congress t a later date will be reluctant to take actions via EO that risk alienating that same Congress.

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Response to HardTimes99 (Reply #77)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 05:49 PM

78. Agreed right back at ya!

But as far as I can tell, Congress has no intention of helping Obama - whether it is all just a Kabuki drama or is real.
They are the epitome of being alienated, IMO.
So why not use executive orders? Because he is getting exactly what he wants.
Washington looks to me like a giant game of your turn to curtsey, my turn to bow.

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Response to djean111 (Reply #78)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 05:58 PM

79. While I enjoy this discussion, I tend to come down pretty firmly on the

 

same side as you, to wit, that Obama could and should have used EOs liberally to stop and rollback Bush-era policies.

I think it is appropriate that a healthy, vigororus debate be held on that proposition and upon Obama's motives for not doing so (if indeed your and my verdict is legitimate).

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Response to djean111 (Reply #76)

Sun Jun 16, 2013, 03:46 PM

83. GOP obstructionism is demonstrably NOT the main problem.

This is how the One Percent wins: by promoting this false narrative that teaches each party that the other party is the culprit, when, in fact, corporatists in both parties are complicit. The real problem is corporate money's stranglehold on our government and our elections, corrupting BOTH parties. This administration has acted aggressively on behalf of corporate interests since Day One. To deny that is to deny reality.

The vast majority of the betrayals on this list had nothing to do with Republican obstructionism:

Corporate and bank-cozy appointments, over and over again, including major appointments like:
A serial defender of corrupt bankers for the SEC; the architect of "Kill Lists" and supporter of torture, drone wars, and telecom immunity for the CIA; and a Monsanto VP who has lied and been involved in extremely disturbing claims regarding food safety for the FDA. An Attorney General who has not prosecuted a single large bank but wages war against medical marijuana users and *for* strip searches and warrantless surveillance of Americans. And let's not forget Tim Geithner.
Bailouts and settlements for corrupt banks (with personal pressure from Obama to attorneys general to approve them),
Refusal by Obama's DOJ to prosecute even huge, egregious examples of bank fraud (i.e, HSBC)
signing NDAA to allow indefinite detention,
"Kill lists" and claiming of the right to assassinate even American citizens without trial
Expansion of wars into several new countries
A renewed public advocacy for the concept of preemptive war
Drone campaigns in multiple countries with whom we are not at war
Proliferation of military drones in our skies
Federal targeting of Occupy for surveillance and militarized response to peaceful protesters
Fighting all the way to the Supreme Court for warrantless surveillance
Fighting all the way to the Supreme Court for strip searches for any arrestee
Supporting and signing Internet-censoring and privacy-violating measures like ACTA
Support for corporate groping and naked scanning of Americans seeking to travel
A new, massive spy center for warrantless access to Americans' phone calls, emails, and internet use
Support of legal immunity for telecoms/warrantless wiretapping
Support of legislation to legalize massive surveillance of Americans
Militarized police departments, through federal grants
Marijuana users and medical marijuana clinics under assault,
Skyrocketing of the budget for prisons.
Failing to veto a bipartisan vote in Congress to gut more financial regulations.
Passionate speeches and press conferences promoting austerity for Americans
Bush tax cuts extended for billionaires, them much of it made permanent
Support for the payroll tax holiday, tying SS to the general fund
Support for the vicious chained CPI cut in Social Security and benefits for the disabled
Social security, Medicare, and Medicaid offered up as bargaining chips in budget negotiations, with No mention of cutting corporate welfare or the military budget
Advocacy of multiple new free trade agreements, including The Trans-Pacific, otherwise known as "NAFTA on steroids."
Support of drilling, pipelines, and selling off portions of the Gulf of Mexico
Corporate education policy including high stakes corporate testing and closures of public schools
Entrenchment of exorbitant for-profit health insurance companies into healthcare, through mandate
Legal assault on union rights of hundreds of thousands of federal workers
New policies of targeting children and first responders in drone campaigns,
New policies of awarding medals for remote drone attacks,
Appointment of private prison executive to head the US Marshal's office
Massive escalation of federal contracts for private prisons under US Marshall's office

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Sat Jun 15, 2013, 10:09 PM

80. corp control of spying is never good, this video gets to it

this gets to the point about corp. control of US spying operation http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/13/chris_pyle_whistleblower_on_cia_domestic

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Sun Jun 16, 2013, 07:37 AM

81. K&R

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Response to Bjorn Against (Original post)

Sun Jun 16, 2013, 03:59 PM

84. "Let's fight the real enemies." Hear, hear!

The One Percent who have purchased both parties depend on their game of pitting Reds and Blues out in the country against each other. They stoke partisan hatred and rely on it to ensure that, no matter which party is in power and implementing their predatory agenda, half of those paying attention will circle the wagons and defend the indefensible out of pure fear or hatred that the other party would be worse.

It has been a brilliant scam.

But what happens when the people finally wake up and realize that they are being played, and unite *across party* to oppose a policy that is predatory and unconscionable?

That's what's happening now. Americans *across party* are outaged at being spied upon like criminals by our own government, and we are standing up to demand answers and accountability. And the result is that the long denied collusion between the two corporate parties is finally exposed. Cheney defends this. Obama defends this. Graham defends this. Pelosi defends this. The real enemy is the corporate money that floods our government and elections, and the corporatism that now drives policy in both parties.

These corporatists have been walking hand in hand all along, on virtually every major issue important to the One Percent. We are only seeing their collusion and clinging together more clearly on *this* issue, because the outage across the country is finally bipartisan, and they can no longer hide behind their carefully propagandized Red and Blue Teams to pretend they are on opposite sides.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #84)

Tue Jun 18, 2013, 11:24 AM

90. There is nothing they love more than to see us fight ourselves

sure, we have our outer fringes, our extremes who are so opposite one another there will never be cooperation between the two. But, the collective power of the people who care if mustered could definitely tilt the axis of this tyrannical course.

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