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Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:49 PM

This is what hurts my brain a little bit.

For years and years and years, a chorus of voices was raised against George W. Bush's so-called "War on Terror." It's a fraud, a scam, a way to push the wars, a way to screw our rights, a way to make money, etc. Here on DU, one could not swing one's dead cat by the tail without striking a thread making this argument, filled with many people agreeing vehemently.

In the last several days, with all the NSA revelations, a lot of those same voices from all those years have defended the NSA and the whole operation by claiming, in essence, "The NSA needs to do this for the 'War on Terror.'" Not just on DU, mind you, but everywhere.

So I guess the "War on Terror" is all legit and stuff now.

Strange days indeed.

Most peculiar, momma.

Hoo.

186 replies, 15890 views

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Reply This is what hurts my brain a little bit. (Original post)
WilliamPitt Jun 2013 OP
Marrah_G Jun 2013 #1
TheDebbieDee Jun 2013 #109
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #145
Myrina Jun 2013 #149
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #166
SkyDaddy7 Jun 2013 #162
Marrah_G Jun 2013 #163
DCKit Jun 2013 #165
Solly Mack Jun 2013 #2
hlthe2b Jun 2013 #3
kentuck Jun 2013 #4
WilliamPitt Jun 2013 #7
kentuck Jun 2013 #27
zeemike Jun 2013 #37
GoneFishin Jun 2013 #112
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jun 2013 #54
Skittles Jun 2013 #140
tavalon Jun 2013 #100
William769 Jun 2013 #5
leftstreet Jun 2013 #6
WilliamPitt Jun 2013 #8
lame54 Jun 2013 #12
mindwalker_i Jun 2013 #18
Whisp Jun 2013 #9
lame54 Jun 2013 #10
mindwalker_i Jun 2013 #20
longship Jun 2013 #25
Maynar Jun 2013 #113
longship Jun 2013 #120
el_bryanto Jun 2013 #11
Maedhros Jun 2013 #43
el_bryanto Jun 2013 #47
Just Saying Jun 2013 #13
NRaleighLiberal Jun 2013 #14
randome Jun 2013 #15
Skidmore Jun 2013 #28
Moostache Jun 2013 #144
tavalon Jun 2013 #102
Hell Hath No Fury Jun 2013 #16
GoneFishin Jun 2013 #115
Skittles Jun 2013 #139
GoneFishin Jun 2013 #143
RobinA Jun 2013 #156
Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #17
suffragette Jun 2013 #38
Junkdrawer Jun 2013 #65
frylock Jun 2013 #95
KoKo Jun 2013 #39
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #129
Cleita Jun 2013 #19
A Simple Game Jun 2013 #21
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jun 2013 #57
SomethingFishy Jun 2013 #87
SomeGuyInEagan Jun 2013 #161
JI7 Jun 2013 #22
tavalon Jun 2013 #103
Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #23
mike dub Jun 2013 #35
Major Hogwash Jun 2013 #82
geek tragedy Jun 2013 #24
OKNancy Jun 2013 #31
bvar22 Jun 2013 #74
chervilant Jun 2013 #96
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #107
Enthusiast Jun 2013 #142
tavalon Jun 2013 #104
DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #116
intheflow Jun 2013 #26
timdog44 Jun 2013 #50
intheflow Jun 2013 #132
timdog44 Jun 2013 #135
intheflow Jun 2013 #178
timdog44 Jun 2013 #186
SammyWinstonJack Jun 2013 #29
Matariki Jun 2013 #30
Nuclear Unicorn Jun 2013 #32
Maedhros Jun 2013 #46
JoeyT Jun 2013 #94
Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #33
tavalon Jun 2013 #105
Uzair Jun 2013 #34
WilliamPitt Jun 2013 #36
Gore1FL Jun 2013 #44
Skittles Jun 2013 #99
Gore1FL Jun 2013 #158
Skittles Jun 2013 #159
Gore1FL Jun 2013 #168
Skittles Jun 2013 #169
Gore1FL Jun 2013 #175
Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #183
Gore1FL Jun 2013 #185
SammyWinstonJack Jun 2013 #41
ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #64
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #68
SomethingFishy Jun 2013 #89
ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2013 #137
Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #184
tavalon Jun 2013 #106
bvar22 Jun 2013 #124
NealK Jun 2013 #176
bvar22 Jun 2013 #177
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #130
Apophis Jun 2013 #133
Romulus Quirinus Jun 2013 #182
Malik Agar Jun 2013 #40
Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #48
BillyRibs Jun 2013 #51
leftstreet Jun 2013 #58
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jun 2013 #75
leftstreet Jun 2013 #78
Laelth Jun 2013 #62
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jun 2013 #79
liberal_at_heart Jun 2013 #181
uppityperson Jun 2013 #42
Spitfire of ATJ Jun 2013 #45
George Gently Jun 2013 #122
jtuck004 Jun 2013 #49
Javaman Jun 2013 #52
Drale Jun 2013 #53
benld74 Jun 2013 #55
WillyT Jun 2013 #56
apples and oranges Jun 2013 #59
Phlem Jun 2013 #60
KoKo Jun 2013 #61
MisterP Jun 2013 #85
KoKo Jun 2013 #86
99th_Monkey Jun 2013 #63
tkmorris Jun 2013 #66
SheilaT Jun 2013 #67
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jun 2013 #80
democrank Jun 2013 #69
hfojvt Jun 2013 #70
Generic Other Jun 2013 #71
boilerbabe Jun 2013 #72
KoKo Jun 2013 #76
pitchforx Jun 2013 #73
KoKo Jun 2013 #77
treestar Jun 2013 #119
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #134
treestar Jun 2013 #150
awoke_in_2003 Jun 2013 #81
pitchforx Jun 2013 #83
TransitJohn Jun 2013 #84
Saviolo Jun 2013 #88
Number23 Jun 2013 #90
WilliamPitt Jun 2013 #97
Number23 Jun 2013 #101
WilliamPitt Jun 2013 #117
Number23 Jun 2013 #126
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #153
Number23 Jun 2013 #170
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #171
Number23 Jun 2013 #172
HangOnKids Jun 2013 #173
n2doc Jun 2013 #91
Canuckistanian Jun 2013 #92
Douglas Carpenter Jun 2013 #93
ybbor Jun 2013 #98
MissDeeds Jun 2013 #108
Amonester Jun 2013 #110
LittleGirl Jun 2013 #111
wandy Jun 2013 #114
treestar Jun 2013 #118
Zorra Jun 2013 #121
Logical Jun 2013 #123
felix_numinous Jun 2013 #125
MuseRider Jun 2013 #127
AAO Jun 2013 #128
haele Jun 2013 #131
paulkienitz Jun 2013 #136
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #138
michigandem58 Jun 2013 #141
cbdo2007 Jun 2013 #146
Hotler Jun 2013 #147
Kablooie Jun 2013 #148
emulatorloo Jun 2013 #151
whatchamacallit Jun 2013 #152
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #154
gtar100 Jun 2013 #155
Demo_Chris Jun 2013 #157
datasuspect Jun 2013 #160
Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #164
stevenleser Jun 2013 #167
GoneFishin Jun 2013 #174
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #179
B2G Jun 2013 #180

Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:51 PM

1. I agree Will

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 09:37 PM

109. My biggest beef with the * admin's wire-tap program was that it was warrantless.

Basically * had his AG call these phone companies and say, "The President wants you to break the law and tap in on your customer's phonecons. You won't get in trouble for doing it because it's the DOJ that would have to prosecute you - that's me and I'm telling you I won't prosecute. " I also think the * admin went warrantless because they were afraid the FISA courts would say no because the phones they wanted to tap belonged to Democratic higher-ups.

At least the Obamaa Admin went to the trouble of getting a FISA warrant.

Also, how much privacy should one expect from communication that results from sending a microwave signal through the air?

One last thing - if the NSA is listening to my boring-ass phonecons, then this nation is in BIG trouble!!!!!!

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Response to TheDebbieDee (Reply #109)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 09:04 AM

145. The difference between Bush's surveillance and Pres Obama's is that

rubber stamped blanket warrant. That is a joke. Read the 4th amendment where is says, "no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." The warrant Pres Obama got is worthless.

You ask "how much privacy should one expect from communication that results from sending a microwave signal through the air?"
How sad that you are so willing to give up your privacy so easily. Privacy of your emails and phone calls. It they arent private then not only can the government listen in, then Macy's can listen in, or Walmart, or your mother in law. We should fight to keep every bit of privacy we can.

Your "one last thing" - You dont care if you are surveilled because you dont do anything wrong. That means you dont see the need for the 4th Amendment because only bad people would be affected by government searches and seizures. I am so glad the founders didnt think that way. I hope you care that Exxon, GE, Microsoft, shouldnt be allowed to surveil you.

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Response to TheDebbieDee (Reply #109)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:52 AM

149. Don't you see the bad mojo in that approach?

Bush: "We are going to do this"
Everyone else: "Sir it's illegal"
Bush: "So what? Do it anyway."
Fast forward to 2009.
Obama: "We are going to do this"
Everyone else: "Sir it's illegal"
Obama: "Ok, let's do it anyway, tweak some terminology & say we'll get warrants ... so ... it's legal"


If something is WRONG, it's wrong.
That they're in the situation to change a law to make it legal still doesn't make it right.

Fracking for instance. Cheney lobbied for it, came up with some bogus studies that claimed it was safe, got around the EPA regulations, and now it's allowed. Is it safe and ok? Hell no, it's STILL as wrong as it was 10 years ago.

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Response to TheDebbieDee (Reply #109)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:59 PM

166. We live in a democracy, I have high expectations of my government not violating my rights. And when

they do, which is bound to happen once in a while, I don't just throw up my hands and accept it. THIS is when we are supposed to act. If not now, when? Wait until it gets even worse? We know what happens when people wait until it's too late, so no thank you, now is the time to speak out.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:16 PM

162. Seriously?

We did not learn anything NEW other than the name, PRISM!! The rest of the stuff has been known for so long "NSA Wiretapping" has its own damn Wikipedia page!! LOL!!

Sorry, but all this MISGUIDED OUTRAGE is just that when compared to the civil rights violations that happen on a daily basis by state & local cops!! State & Local police violate more civil rights in one day that the NSA WILL EVER DO!! WHY?? There is no one policing the police!!!!

yet here we are with our collective panties in a wad!! SAD!!

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Response to SkyDaddy7 (Reply #162)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:22 PM

163. You and I disagree on this

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #1)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:48 PM

165. What y'all ^ said.

 

And you said it well.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:51 PM

2. Dude!

K&R

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:52 PM

3. Yes, indeed... Very disconcerting to see... n/t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:52 PM

4. My brain hurts too...

I think it just shows how effective our propaganda can be when they want it to be/

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Response to kentuck (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:54 PM

7. ...as well as a towering testament

to the awesome power of the My Team/Their Team phenomenon in politics.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:20 PM

27. True dat...

It's rather depressing to see that.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:34 PM

37. Should not be that surprising to us

Hi school sports are based on that principle of "school spirit"
And there are a significant number of people that stopped their development when they graduated from it.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #37)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:19 PM

112. Boom.

Interesting.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:54 PM

54. As I have posted before, more people care about sports

than politics. They care more about something that won't affect their lives in anyway and have no interest in something that could profoundly change their lives.

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Response to WHEN CRABS ROAR (Reply #54)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:41 AM

140. I COULD KICK ROARING CRAB ASS

JUST SAYIN'

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:42 PM

100. I hate that almost more than I hate Rahm Emanuel

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:53 PM

5. Kick & recommended.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:53 PM

6. Seems legit

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:54 PM

8. OMG

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:57 PM

12. Truth in advertising...

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:10 PM

18. That' hairlarious

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:55 PM

10. Swinging dead cats is against DU rules

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Response to lame54 (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:11 PM

20. In all fairness

If you swing a live cat, it becomes a universal solvent.

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Response to lame54 (Reply #10)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:19 PM

25. But swinging Schrödinger cats is obligatory.

Indeterminacy factors out the ethical issues.

The last week or so you couldn't swing a Schrödinger cat without hitting a flame war around here.

Myself, I would prefer thoughtful and respectful discussion based more on facts and less on personal attacks and suppositions.

Do I like this NSA stuff?
Nope!

Do I like the chair throwing here at DU?
Nope!

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Response to longship (Reply #25)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:21 PM

113. A man carrying a cat

by its tail will learn something he can learn no other way.

I heard that a smart person once said that.

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Response to Maynar (Reply #113)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:43 PM

120. Indubitably wise, he was. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:56 PM

11. In fairness there are also plenty denouncing the program

I guess DU looks different depending on what side of the fence you are on (in this issue) - but I see plenty of posts condemning those who are ok with the PRISM Program as sell-outs and fascist-enablers, and I see plenty of posts condemning those who are opposed to the PRISM program as effectively-pro-Republican.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #11)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:44 PM

43. Invective aside,

the argument that one is supportive of authoritarian government if one is supportive of the PRISM program has more merit than the argument that opposing the PRISM program is a partisan political attack on the President.

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Response to Maedhros (Reply #43)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:47 PM

47. I agree, that if you oppose the PRISM program, you are certainly right

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 03:57 PM

13. It's not that it's legit so much as its not news that this is going on.

Or shouldn't be. It's the law of the land and as I recall Obama has supported continuing the program. I'm still confused about what the whistle was blown on. A 12 year old program? Was something illegal done? I understand hating the Patriot Act but its still law at this point, right?

I do think we need to use intelligence gathering rather than war to combat terrorists. We continue to walk a line between being free and wanting to protected. Can we bring shampoo on airplanes yet?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:00 PM

14. indeed. n/t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:00 PM

15. I don't think people are arguing in FAVOR of eternal vigilance for evil terrorists.

We're saying that if that is the NSA's job, then they appear to be doing it well.

From what we know.



Stop looking for heroes. BE one.


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Response to randome (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:20 PM

28. This. Get the FISA law and Patriot Act repealed, amended, or

ruled unconstitutional. Otherwise nothing changes and the gnashing of teeth and practices continue. We are still a civilized nation based on law the last time I heard. There are mechanisms and procedures for effecting such change and they are not limited to railing at the heavens in thr internet.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #28)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 08:34 AM

144. Amen.

The Patriot Act is the most odious piece of legislation passed in the last 15 years. Without a full repeal of it, we are in our own version of Star Trek's Kobayashi Maru, the proverbial no-win scenario.

My greatest disappointments in the last 5+ years have been the inability of Harry Reid to realize the filibuster abuse of the right is preventable by his own action (currently inaction allowing it to persist) and the inability to get Gitmo closed and the ground of the prison salted with quick lime. Those are the only two things I would put ahead of repealing the Patriot Act at this time.

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Response to randome (Reply #15)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:46 PM

102. Really,

By data mining everyone's information? It would seem to me that they are doing their job badly, if that's their way of doing it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:04 PM

16. Dude -

we're not in Kansas anymore, if ya catch my drift.

We saw this very same from GOPers during the Bush years. Folks so steadfastly partisan, so invested in a certain world/political view that no amount of evidence, persuasion, confronting will make them change their minds. Will, there are still people who think Michelle Bachmann is a brain trust and that the country would have been better off if Sarah Palin had run and won the last election. Do you honestly think that type of mental rigidity/delusion is limited to the other side?

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Response to Hell Hath No Fury (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:33 PM

115. I admit to thinking that was a Republican Rightie trait until BO became POTUS.

I had no idea that blind allegiance existed on the left.

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Response to GoneFishin (Reply #115)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:40 AM

139. in all fairness

Last edited Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:52 PM - Edit history (1)

I think a lot of it is an overwhelming, understandable desire to see the first black president succeed - I want that too, heck, all true Democrats do - but the difference is I'm not willing to put on blinders in an effort to convince myself EVERYTHING is roses

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Response to Skittles (Reply #139)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 08:22 AM

143. Yes. I was pretty happy when he was first elected.

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Response to GoneFishin (Reply #115)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 01:00 PM

156. I Second That

I did think the "If my guy says it, it's OK" was a Right thing. Apparently not. I truly did not think you could be against warrantless data collection one time and OK with it the next.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:09 PM

17. Here: I'll strain that brain a bit more:

Are we watching the Outing or the Rollout of the Panopticon... err I mean PRISM?



Why The NSA’s Secret Online Surveillance Should Scare You



The reaction to the National Security Agency (NSA)’s secret online spying program, PRISM, has been polarized between seething outrage and some variant on “what did you expect?” Some have gone so far as to say this program helps open the door to fascism, while others have downplayed it as in line with the way that we already let corporations get ahold of our personal data.

That second reaction illustrates precisely why this program is so troubling. The more we accept perpetual government and corporate surveillance as the norm, the more we change our actions and behavior to fit that expectation — subtly but inexorably corrupting the liberal ideal that each person should be free to live life as they choose without fear of anyone else interfering with it.

Put differently, George Orwell isn’t who you should be reading to understand the dangers inherent to the NSA’s dragnet. You’d be better off turning to famous French social theorist Michel Foucault.

...

A citizenry that’s constantly on guard for secret, unaccountable surveillance is one that’s constantly being remade along the lines the state would prefer. Foucault illustrated this point by reference to a hypothetical prison called the Panopticon. Designed by utilitarian philosopher Jeremy Bentham, the Panopticon is a prison where all cells can be seen from a central tower shielded such that the guards can see out but the prisoners can’t see in. The prisoners in the Panopticon could thus never know whether they were being surveilled, meaning that they have to, if they want to avoid running the risk of severe punishment, assume that they were being watched at all times. Thus, the Panopticon functioned as an effective tool of social control even when it wasn’t being staffed by a single guard.

....

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/07/2120141/why-the-nsas-secret-online-surveillance-should-scare-you/


Now, consider this from DemocracyNow this morning:

....

AMY GOODMAN: What’s wrong with that?

TIM SHORROCK: What’s wrong with that is that it’s a for-profit operation. Many times, you have—inside these agencies, you have contractors overseeing other contractors, contractors, you know, giving advice to the agency about how to set its policies, what kind of technology to buy. And, of course, they have relationships with all the companies that they work with or that they suggest to the leaders of U.S. intelligence.

And I think, you know, a terrible example of this is, you know, a few months ago, I wrote a cover story for The Nation magazine about the NSA whistleblowers that you’ve had on this show a few times—Tom Drake, Bill Binney and the other two—and, you know, they blew the whistle on a huge project called Trailblazer that was contracted out to SAIC that was a complete failure. And this project was designed, from the beginning, by Booz Allen, Northrop Grumman and a couple other corporations who advised the NSA about how to acquire this project, and then decided amongst themselves to give it to SAIC, and then SAIC promised the skies and never produced anything, and the project was finally canceled in 2005.
....

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/6/11/digital_blackwater_how_the_nsa_gives


So those NSA whistleblowers were prosecuted because they let out a terrible secret: Trailblazer (which sounds to me like PRISM's predecessor) DIDN'T WORK.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:36 PM

38. + 1,000

This would be a great OP.

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #65)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 07:48 PM

95. knr'd

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #17)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:36 PM

39. Interesting Info...thanks!

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Response to Junkdrawer (Reply #17)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:02 AM

129. Thanks so much. Excellent post.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:11 PM

19. It's seems like our Constitution has become no more useful than as a

bird cage liner these days. Because it's the Democrats who are in violation of it this time, it seems to be okay.

I give up.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:12 PM

21. The thing about this war on terror that gets me is

if you take away one catastrophic incident on 9/11 and the two wars that followed it, all you have for terrorism amounts to a pimple on an elephants butt.

We would have been better off just ignoring what happened on 9/11, much better off. I firmly believe we caused more terrorism after the 9/11 incident than all of other the terrorists combined. Afghanistan and Iraq did nothing to us, nothing at all.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:58 PM

57. I totally agree.

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Response to A Simple Game (Reply #21)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:40 PM

87. Thom Hartmann put it like this:

"We are doing this to save less people than are killed falling in the bathtub every year".

When you look at it as a cost to benefit ratio you wonder why we aren't spending the money to cure cancer..

Authoritarianism and violence are not the cure for terrorism, they are the cause....

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #87)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:53 PM

161. "Authoritarianism and violence are not the cure for terrorism" but they are profitable industries ..

... for some folks with lots of influence in D.C.

War is a racket, this is a racket on steroids.

Always follow the money.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:13 PM

22. because things like the Color coded Alerts were obviously fake and more for political

reasons to help Bush.

i don't think anyone had a problem with trying to prevent terrorism but the Bush administration was not doing that.

Obama is not Bush. you might disagree with things he does but he did doing it because he thinks it will help to prevent attacks and not because he could use it for his own political gain .

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Response to JI7 (Reply #22)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:48 PM

103. Some of us took the long view that to prevent terrorism,

you feed, cloth and give comfort to the world and you ask the important question "why?" Boy, did that piss off a lot of Americans in 2001, when a handful of people like me were suggesting it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:14 PM

23. When was the Boston Marathon??

I'm thinking of running in next year's marathon -- even though I have NEVER run a marathon in my whole frickin' life -- in support of the people of Boston!!

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Response to Major Hogwash (Reply #23)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:28 PM

35. Go for it, Major (to go further off-topic)

but hop to it: as you're probably aware, you'll need to run a certified, Qualifying marathon before November (when Boston 2014 registration opens) in order to get in. And the qualifying times are ROUGH. I'm a decent runner, and just qualifying for Boston was quite the task.

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Response to mike dub (Reply #35)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:07 PM

82. I didn't know that. Thanks for the information.

Now all I have to do is get registered for a qualifying marathon in the next 4 months, lose 40 pounds, buy a pair of running shoes, and quit smoking 2 packs a day -- and I'm in like Flynn!!!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:15 PM

24. There is considerable ground between "the war on terror is the greatest challenge

our nation has ever faced" and "terrorism isn't a real problem" mentalities.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #24)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:23 PM

31. exactly

I was one of the people who denounced Bush. But, I didn't trust him. I do trust Obama. It's as simple as that.
At first I thought the treats were overblown, but we have seen enough incidents that it's out there. Obviously the President has seen some disturbing evidence as well. Plots have been thwarted, a few have not been.

I do think we need to know about it and talk about it, but I don't fear "the future of our country".
That's ridiculous. I do fear the ultra-right, what the Koch brothers are doing and what is happening to public education.
Those subjects worry me more than the NSA.

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Response to OKNancy (Reply #31)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:45 PM

74. Its all OK because YOU "trust Obama"!!????

That is a stunning statement.
You know, Obama won't be president forever.
A Republican will sit in the Oval Office again, perhaps as soon as 2016,
and that Republican might have someone as crazy as Sarah Palin one heartbeat away from the Oval Office.


It is NOT about The Person.
It IS about BAD and Dangerous Policy.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #74)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 07:53 PM

96. Do you sometimes feel as though

you are talking to a brick wall? I just don't get the blind allegiance to a politician of any ilk.

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Response to chervilant (Reply #96)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:58 PM

107. I think that people need to be able to trust someone. Pres Obama has a nice smile and a nice family.

But I cant over look all the Bush republicans he has surrounded himself with. I didnt like Bushboy and I dont like his gang. I dont understand how the apologists can justify all the conservatives that he has advising him.

And for me the last straw was/is Penny Pritzker. How we loved to hate Mit Romney, but how does he differ from Ms. Pritzker other than she claims she is a Democrat. If she is a Democrat, then Mit Romney could change his party and the crazies would love him.

Brick wall? Yes.

Clapper is a Bush gang member. Just sayin.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #107)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 07:23 AM

142. Shit....

I think Pritzker is even worse than Romney. If that is possible. Then there is the Geithner and Larry Summers. You know the rest.

Brick wall...

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Response to OKNancy (Reply #31)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:50 PM

104. Do you trust the next President and the President after that? Lather, rinse, repeat

This is wrong, no matter who is at the helm.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #24)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:35 PM

116. Right. And the middle ground doesn't include the largest spy program in history.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:19 PM

26. Thank you, Will!

Not only seeing many old-time DUers defending this program they so vehemently opposed under Bush, but also a hellova lot of people who joined since Obama was elected calling those of us who still oppose it trolls, undemocratic, and two-faced. If my position stays the same even as the politicians change, does that make me a two-faced hypocrite? I don't think so! Does it matter if Snowden is a Rand Paul supporter if he's telling the truth about the subversion of US liberties? I guess to many people, truth is subjective, the fourth amendment is a unrealistic fantasy brought forth by the founders out of La-La Ponyland, and lies are okay if your guy is doing it.

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Response to intheflow (Reply #26)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:51 PM

50. Your one statement is the tell all.

It does not matter if he is a Rand Paul supporter. It matters if he is telling the truth. Is he telling the truth? He is getting something out of this other than thinking he is saint. The goodness of his heart? Question of the week. And what do you suppose Glenn Greenwald is getting out of this?

Bush used his business to talk us into a war in Iraq and Afghanistan. He sat by while the towers were destroyed by terrorists that his spies knew about and did nothing about it, so he could go to war. It was a done deal.

So if we stop all the surveillance, like it seems a lot here want to do, and the Sears Tower is blown to kingdom come, Obama will be at fault for not stopping it. I did not ever trust Bush, or his dad, or his brothers. They were all crooks or idiots. I trust Obama. I still do not like surveillance, but I Trust Obama to do the right thing.

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Response to timdog44 (Reply #50)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:44 AM

132. Oy. Where do I start with this?

Here:

"I Trust Obama to do the right thing."

And millions trusted Hitler. Look, I like Obama, but he is not omnipotent, the government is a huge and runs like a complex perpetual motion machine, and there is big corporate money in military/security systems. He cannot control everything that happens in the US government. Corruption is rampant in all forms of government.

"I Trust Obama to do the right thing."

But you didn't trust Bush and you act as if no Republican will ever get elected again. By supporting the president on this, by giving up your own fourth amendment right to privacy, you seek to cease discussion and action to get this program overturned so that the next conservative won't use it to track you down as a political enemy of the state.

Finally, the whole Rand Paul supporter argument is bogus, assuming guilt by association. Again, hardly a democratic principle. For historical precedent of the absolute ridiculousness of broad-brush condemnation of whole swaths of people due to guilt by association, see: Salem witch trials, Japanese internment camps during WWII, McCarthyism and the HUAC.

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Response to intheflow (Reply #132)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 01:17 AM

135. I can start by taking the last first.

I don't give a fig if he is a Rand Paul supporter. Never said that. So I am not painting with a wide brush. And I understand that historically the US did a lot, and still does a lot, of not so nice things. I am again not painting Snowden with this brush, nor did I ever, although I saw the attempts to do that. Wrong way to do things. My question is - what is Snowden's motive? As I said, do you think he had an epiphany and is coming out as some kind of saint? I think he did not have an epiphany and I think he is copycat mode. I think he got snowed by that traitor, Greenwald. And as you can tell, I don't think highly of Greenwald. I don't think he did an investigative lift of the finger in this story other than to take some low level spy wannabe and convince him to tell some sensational stuff.

I agree the government is huge and runs on its own inertia. Obama does not have much of the control that people attribute to him. If he said for some agency to do a certain thing, it would get done in its own time, and not Obama time. I think the comparison to Hitler is a little over the line and I don't think that is what is happening. I think there is not a lot of real information on this yet and with time we will find that what has been done, has been done legally and not as intrusively as everyone is crying about.

Surveillance is the necessary evil of our day. We need to pare down the agencies that can do this to a few, eliminate the mercenary spies (and I mean that in the most terrible way possible as I hate mercenaries). I think mercenaries are non allegiant beings who out only for the money. They have dropped out of the government to make consulting fees. Hateful. And then the surveillance needs to be put in some encrypted form that the government knows, so that corporation or other governments can't use against us.

In all this, I again say, I trust Obama and when Al Franken came out and said his piece I was more of a believer. I am not naive enough to believe this can not be used against us, but I also trust the ACLU to do the thing that they do - protect our constitutional rights by suing and testing their limits.

I truly understand what you are getting to, I think I am just in a different tack. I hope we are both right. If that is possible. I do listen to what you say. I have followed a lot of your posts. You make sense, and make me work hard at what I think. Thanks for that.

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Response to timdog44 (Reply #135)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:33 AM

178. I'm sorry.

I totally misread your original answer to me. I still don't agree with the surveillance state, but I'm certainly not helping civil discourse by misreading posts from sane people trying to have rational discussions. Peace, timdog.

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Response to intheflow (Reply #178)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:25 PM

186. And peace to you.

You do not have to apologize, intheflow. We are having civil discourse. Sometimes it takes a couple posts for us to get to the same page, at least discussion wise. I'm sure we will run into each other again.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:21 PM

29. rec

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:21 PM

30. Damn straight. We need to focus on ISSUES.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:23 PM

32. Bernie Sanders is troubled by this and everyone knows what a RW tool he is! nt

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:46 PM

46. Along with my Senators, Ron Wyden and Jeff Merkley.

Hard to characterize either of them as "right wing."

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #32)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 07:18 PM

94. And they've been joined by Grayson.

On the other hand, Boehner thinks it's necessary and good, so I'm torn.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:26 PM

33. "A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right."

Thomas Paine

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #33)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:51 PM

105. Nice quote

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:27 PM

34. Never ending bullshit

 

Why are you equating Bush to Obama?

What, exactly, has Obama done that has even remotely crossed the line? Especially when comparing him to Bush, the guy who started illegal wars and tortured people and illegally WIRETAPPED people, which Obama DID NOT DO.

Seriously, guys. This is getting ridiculous. The media creates fake scandal after fake scandal and you guys eat it up.

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Response to Uzair (Reply #34)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:29 PM

36. Shortcut to Thinking 101

Try harder.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #36)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:44 PM

44. If you are going to start the thread

You need to do better than using ad hominem attacks against those with whom you have a disagreement.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdHominem

Suggesting that DUer "Uzair" needs a basic class in thinking might work in an insult contest, it doesn't advance the discussion, augment your argument, or address any of that person's questions, or points.

I'd be interested in seeing a more informed and civil response from you to Uzair concernign the topic at hand.

Thanks.

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #44)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:10 PM

99. remember when Barney Frank alluded to a table leg?

that's what his response meant

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Response to Skittles (Reply #99)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:10 PM

158. Barney Frank's response was warranted.

The person he said it too was being inflammatory and using contradicting labels to describe Obama in a strident manner.

The user above made a specific and verified distinction, and was dismissed unnecessarily in an obnoxious way. It would have been far better for the OP to address the concerns rather than to call someone stupid without further input. If he is unable to do that, there is really no point in starting the OP in the first place.




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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #158)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:49 PM

159. "equating Obama to Bush"

indicates someone who thinks certain powers are OK under presidents they like but OH NOES if it's a republican.......THAT is what is UTTER BULLSHIT, as they so eloquently put it, and absolutely VINDICATES what Mr. Pitt said

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Response to Skittles (Reply #159)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 05:05 PM

168. I don't think that is what he did.

I'm against the program. But this issue is one of many that seems to be aimed at discrediting Obama as if this wasn't al in place (or that he didn't add safeguards to what Bush had.

I agree with everyone who thinks the patriot act is a joke and that collecting the data as the NSA is demonstrates a conflict with the 4th Amendment.

I also agree with those who find it problematic that this is being floated as a problem with abuse by the Obama administration rather than as a poor policy put into place over a decade ago.

Perhaps that's hair splitting, but it doesn't reflect a lack of intelligence or a lack of thinking. If those points can't be answered in any other way than questioning the intelligence of the poster, then I have to wonder what other parts of the argument the OP is unwilling or unable to support.

I don't have your take of the original question. I don't see the argument indicate that "certain powers are OK under presidents they like but OH NOES if it's a republican." I took it as "why did it take you twelve years to get upset about this, and why are you even more critical of the person who actually put some (though an insufficient amount) braking on it policy?"

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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #168)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:05 PM

169. it's hair splitting

if people could understand the issue is the direction America is taking and NOT specifically Obama's legacy, they would better understand both the problems AND the potential problems

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Response to Skittles (Reply #169)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 09:19 PM

175. I agree with that

but the story is spun often as anti-Obama. The lack of specificity tends to "dragnet" people who generally agree that there is a privacy conflict, but would prefer that N.S.A. not be the replacement for I.R.S., D.O.J, Ben.Gha.Zi, etc.

This isn't to say that criticism doesn't belong with the Obama administration. All criticism does not belong there. Nor does most criticism.

IMO, this OP presents an all or nothing dichotomy. It didn't have to. Instead of acknowledging this intellectually when Uzair brought the point up, The OP simply insulted him. It was uncalled for. It was also unnecessary, because the real answer was this:


"You are correct. Obama inherited a bad program concocted by the Bush administration. He has not abused it like his predecessor. However, there is still questionable activity going on, and Obama is not blameless. Ultimately, the policy is bad. Whether or not the power is abused more or less by different leaders, they should not have the power in the first place."


Will is an adult and accomplished writer. I shouldn't have to pen example responses for him, or criticize his civility. He's better than that.






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Response to Gore1FL (Reply #168)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:50 AM

183. You think William Rivers Pitt is out to discredit the President?

Are you out of your mind?

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Response to Romulus Quirinus (Reply #183)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 02:23 PM

185. Did I say that?

I said he was unnecessarily rude to a DUer when he could have easily clarified his point. I am not sure how that equates to "out to discredit the President."

To answer your question: No. I am not out of my mind.

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Response to Uzair (Reply #34)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:39 PM

41. "The media creates fake scandal" What's fake about any of this?

Starting illegal wars vs continuing illegal wars..........hmmm.

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Response to SammyWinstonJack (Reply #41)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:04 PM

64. Are you serious?

If so, please point out the "illegality" in the Authorization to Use Military Force (AUMF), which last time I checked was passed by Congress and signed by the President.

One can say "that was a very bad idea", or "the people who passed that should be voted out of office", without descending into blatant falsehoods like "Starting illegal wars" and "Continuing illegal wars".

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #64)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:17 PM

68. The Reality Based Community Canard

You appear to be a bit rusty.

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Response to ConservativeDemocrat (Reply #64)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:53 PM

89. So when intelligence is "cherry picked" and facts are just made up

that makes the war legal because there was a vote on it? Discrimination against gays is "legal". Slavery was "legal". Keeping women from voting was "legal". Forcing a black man to drink from a different water fountain than a white man was "legal". Lynching was "legal". If everyone followed "the law" the US wouldn't even be a country.

The question here should be ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS? The war on terror has been one debacle after another, one lie after another, hundreds of thousands are dead because of false intelligence and an invasion of a country that was barely a threat to their neighbors let alone to us and you have the fucking gall to sit there and claim you are part of the "Reality Based Community"? It may have been "a very bad idea" to you, but to the DEAD it was a matter of life and death.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #89)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 01:40 AM

137. When a "vote on it" is passed by lawful authority... that makes it legal.

That's what legal means.

I mean seriously, do I have to explain this to you like you're a third-grader?

I don't particularly like Bush's war any more that you do, but let me be clear: throwing around blatant falsehoods about "illegal war" doesn't make arguments any stronger. Especially when the same people then go on to smear President Obama with them.

And yes. Democrats are called the "Reality Based Community" for a reason. Unlike Republicans, we don't have a culture of just making shit up.

Remember that.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #89)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:52 AM

184. right on. n t

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Response to Uzair (Reply #34)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:53 PM

106. Actually, he's accusing you of treating politics like a team sport

And since your team is "winning" right now, you are happy. Reread and maybe read some of the comments. This is so not about comparing Bush and Obama, it's comparing the behavior of the same people under those two regimes. It's talking about hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy.

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Response to Uzair (Reply #34)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:54 PM

124. "What, exactly, has Obama done that has even remotely crossed the line?"

Well, lets start with the secret Kill List and Pre-Emptive Drone Bombings in nations that haven't attacked us.
Most rational people would consider sending an armed aircraft into their territory,
and dropping bombs that kill their citizens (some of them innocent women & children) based on suspicion of being a terrorist an Act of War.
Can you imagine the furor if another nation did THAT to us?

Bush NEVER went THAT far.
Would you have supported Bush is HE had started this program?

Just as a refresher in case you "forgot",
here is Candidate Obama in 2007.

“The president does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation.” ---Senator Obama, 12-20-2007

Have you been blinded by the light?


You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #124)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:38 PM

176. Candidate Obama...

I miss that guy.

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Response to NealK (Reply #176)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 12:25 PM

177. THAT guy would have made a great President!

Renegotiation NAFTA
Labeling GMO foods
A Public Option
Raising the CAP on the Payroll Tax
Walking the UNION line in his comfortable shoes
Restoring TRANSPARENCY & ACCOUNTABILITY to our Government
Restoring ACCOUNTABILITY to Wall Street
Closing GITMO

Yep. THAT guy would have made a fine President.



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Response to Uzair (Reply #34)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:21 AM

130. What has Obama done.

I've explained this so many times. I'm really getting tired of having to re-explain and re-explain.

This program probably was conceived and partially created before Obama became president. It is a project of our overly paranoid national security administration.

Why is it dangerous to our country?

Because when people are under surveillance, they begin to notice it and they change their behavior. They become hesitant to do what I am doing now: criticize their government.

Reporters consider carefully whether they dare call someone with a story that is negative about the government or people who are close to the government (whether Monsanto's products harm your health is still uncertain, but Monsanto has a lot of positive contacts and power in the government, so think Monsanto as an example here) much less report news that will embarrass the government or cause it to be criticized.

When you ask people what they think about political issues, they will just turn away in silence.

Then one of your friends says, "Remember so-and-so. She was really smart and I like her, but her dad is on the 'Do not call' list so she will never get a good job."

How do I know about these things? Because I know what it was like in Eastern Europe when they had surveillance up the wazoo. That's how people acted.

And many people really wanted to leave. In fact, lots did. And sometimes families got together and decided who would leave and would sacrifice and stay to take care of mom and dad. In fact, some people wanted to leave so badly that if they knew how to fly airplanes, they stole them and flew to the West.

Do you think that couldn't happen here? Just let the government continue this kind of surveillance of phone records and you will find out. Once you find out, it will be too late for you.

Think this over. Please.

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Response to Uzair (Reply #34)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:47 AM

133. Fake scandal?

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Response to Uzair (Reply #34)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:49 AM

182. I guess force feeding and solitary confinement don't count. nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:38 PM

40. Could all of this stuff give rise to a 3rd party?

 

Yes I know 3rd parties are unsuccessful, but I'm relatively young and naive. This entire NSA spy scandal cuts across party lines and has created some very strange bedfellows. Who would have ever thought that Michael Moore and Glenn Beck would be on the same side or such a divisive issue? Bernie Sanders and Ron/Rand Paul are on the same team. Is it plausible that some mutant alliance party develops in order to vote out the people trampling the Constitution?

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Response to Malik Agar (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:48 PM

48. You mean a liberal version of the Tea Party?

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Response to Malik Agar (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:52 PM

51. National Third Parties have been

 

dead in the water for years. Once the House deadlocked itself (with the Congressional Impasse of 1911) as to how many people are to be in a district, the fix was in. So today I ask all People, 1)How the hell can you represent an average of 800,000 people!?
2)why are the 525,000 people in Rode island worth the same as the 1,250,000 people in Montana!? one Representative.
We as a Nation are the second worst represented Democracy in the world. second only to India. Washington himself Said, "The smaller the constituency the less likely the chance for corruption to take root and grow." The sooner we rectify this the better we will all be.

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Response to Malik Agar (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:58 PM

58. The People need to rise. The 'parties' will follow n/t

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #58)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:47 PM

75. "The parties will follow". Sort of like they started to with Occupy.

Yeah I remember how that went.
As for the people, yep, I agree they really do need to rise up off their asses and start caring about what affects their lives more than sports and entertainment, but is that really going to happen?
Most don't even know what's going on in their own town, let alone the country or the world.
A big non-violent general strike that would stop business as usual, run by well organized aware groups could work, but where's the energy for that to happen?
Any thoughts?

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Response to WHEN CRABS ROAR (Reply #75)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:55 PM

78. Occupy was never that kind of a movement

It didn't spring people-up from traditional working class solidarity issues like labor disputes, rent strikes, etc

It was invented by an advertising agency, never moved from its vague 'middle class' message, and politicians jumped to denounce or endorse it without knowing anything about it.

Yet it was still fortunate to get the following it did. So that does say something.

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Response to Malik Agar (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:04 PM

62. The Immigration Bill being debated in the Senate is also cutting across party lines.

It is a strange time, indeed. No clue what the future may hold, however.



-Laelth

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Response to Malik Agar (Reply #40)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:57 PM

79. Both parties are run by corporations

why would a 3rd be any different?
It would have to be run by very aware and effective groups, something that is sadly lacking at the present.

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Response to Malik Agar (Reply #40)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:41 AM

181. It has for me.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:40 PM

42. What hurts my brain is people equating those who recognize this is not new with saying it's ok.

Now, trash thread, again.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:46 PM

45. The same voices? Are you sure?

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #45)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:51 PM

122. Yeah --- that one hurt my brain, too.

 

The same voices howling then are howling now.

Only now a lot of 'em are howling like they were absent that day.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:48 PM

49. I suspect Al-Qaeda and other Islamic terror groups don't drink champagne, but if


what many have told us is true, that they hate our freedoms, they may well be celebrating how effective they have been at getting us to rid ourselves of them, these freedoms we say are so important that we sent people to die for them.

I bet even they are shocked at how many new supporters they have in this country.

I think future patriotic speeches will be very different, maybe not ring out as proudly, as we shovel the dirt over the broken bodies of people who died to protect the right of the government to enrich banks on the backs of working people, students, the sick, and those in poverty, while snooping and spying on all we do.

Go U.S.A.





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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:52 PM

52. Shush you! What did I tell you about pointing out hypocrisy???

Don't make me come back there!!!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:53 PM

53. It is strange days but

What this "Hero" released was not heroic at all. Everyone knew it was happening already. It was the equivilent of him releasing documents saying that the Japanese attacked Pearl harbor.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:57 PM

55. I was most likely one of those voices, the reason I haven't spoken up until now,,

is this,

I know that once something starts at the Federal Level, it cannot be stopped, period.
I dont like it. I can raise holy hockey sticks about it. I can write my Congress Critters about it. I can take my Obama stickers off my vehicle. I can return my Democratic Card. I can join the opposition against it. I could march against it.
But can I have that much affect on it?
In reality?
Really?
Well, I'm a realist more than anything else.
I root for the underdogs in everything.
I am against this.
but,,,

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 04:57 PM

56. K & R !!!


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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:00 PM

59. Are you sure they were the same people? The democratic party is a huge tent

There's a libertarian wing, occupy wing, progressive wing, liberal pragmatist wing, and centrist wing (example, Hillary Clinton wanting to bomb Iran). The different factions have different priorities and are more vocal at different times. It's more likely that the people who are more in acceptance or resigned to what the NSA is doing didn't weigh in on the earlier debates about Bush.

Also, I haven't seen anyone supportive of the program, just some posters reminding others that the revelations aren't new and that we should direct our anger in the right direction.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:01 PM

60. K&R!

Thanks William

-p

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:04 PM

61. Agree...

But it's a hopeful change that we have many more sites we have now to get more Progressive/Dem Information instead of what goes on here on DU:

Truth Out/TruthDig, Alternet, Nation of Change, The Real News with Paul Jay plus the ROKU Box where I can now watch Democracy Now and RT America in my own time. Plus on ROKU there's the real BBC, German and Irish News, Al Jazerra, Press TV, ASIA TV and many other foreign News in English.

"RT America" has excellent Left News with many fine guests (American Activists) who are allowed ample time to speak in interviews. Kevin Gostalzo's reporting on Bradley Manning Trial and interviews with Julian Assange and other Whistle Blowers. Peter Lavelle has an excellent interview show called "Crosstalk" with American and International Viewpoints all given equal time. Usually three different viewpoints with time to hear viewpoints long given little time here in USA.

International News has been a wonderful break from the MSM here in the US which is so insular and controlled.

The way things are going on DU it will become irrelevant soon if it continues to be "Fight Club." It was the "Community" here that kept many of us coming back. After 12 years on this site...I felt it was like a family....disfunctional at times...but filled with interesting people and points of view from all walks of life. Not so much at all any more.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #61)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:36 PM

85. you mean what happened to the fight clubs at the end, everyone chasing a phantom?

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Response to MisterP (Reply #85)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:38 PM

86. Chasing a Phantom.......maybe...

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:04 PM

63. "At least he's OUR guy who's doing it" ... nicely, with kid gloves & smooth speeches

so now it's all good. What's to complain about?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:13 PM

66. It's pass interference when they do it. It's good defense when your team does it.

Sadly that's what it comes down to for an awful lot of people. Issues, ideas, philosophies on what constitutes good governance, none of these matter to many people. It's just a game for them, a thing to care about simply in order to keep from being crushingly bored. It's the Yankees versus the Red Sox, all day every day.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:14 PM

67. Well said, Will.

The entire War on Terror, the entire justification for almost everything that has happened since September 11, 2001, is a complete crock.

Notice how well the eavesdropping saved us from some lunatic doing something like, oh, I don't know, setting off a couple of bombs at the Boston Marathon? Oh, wait. That happened.

The only "plots" that are ever uncovered seem to be the ones that undercover FBI agents lure people into.

We are slowly, but surely, approaching East Germany status, where half of the population is spying on the other half.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #67)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:03 PM

80. Well said as well.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:17 PM

69. It`s The Head Nodders Club.

So George W. Bushie, it`s frightening. Just nod no matter what. Even if it`s illegal. Even if it`s immoral. Even if it`s unconstitutional. Just nod.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:23 PM

70. well the same thing happened with the Bush tax cuts

suddenly making 85% of them permanent was a huge progressive victory for the people.

But you are not talking about the same people.

Many of the people who agreed vehemently on DU in the past are gone now. They are not the same ones now defending it.

Others who are now defending it were perhaps silent for fear of getting flamed by the majority, but now that they have a sizable contingent of supporters they feel braver to speak their minds.

For myself, I thought some of the shrieking during the Bush administration was overwrought. I got called a Bush-defender for saying so. I got mocked for scoffing at the notion of fascism under Bush.

Really there was a certain partisan vehemence back in the day where people were throwing everything at Bush, just because they hated HIM. Not because of principle or because they hated the policy, but because they hated HIM.

Republicans are now doing the same thing to Obama. It's kinda the Gate syndrome. Since August 8, 1974 every dedicated member of the opposition has been searching for the fountain of Gate. The scandal that will force the President they hate, that they never voted for, to resign in disgrace (at least temporary disgrace. It lasted, what, maybe 3 years for Nixon? Okay, maybe longer, he was not asked to speak at the 1980 convention or 1984 convention.)

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:24 PM

71. I am still yelling

I keep seeing old DUers checking in to yell. Pre-Obama that's all we ever did. Yell. And we didn't take kindly to centrist apologists excusing this patriot act crap that allowed them and anyone else to abuse our right to privacy. Most of those who felt that way then feel that way now. They just aren't being heard.

No, that's wrong. I have heard a lot of DUers screaming about it actually. But it is hard to scream when people keep shushing us. Through Obama's whole term, we have been being cautioned not to second guess, question, criticize, disagree with or challenge Obama. To give him a chance. If there are things we wish he'd done differently, our opinions have been dismissed. We've had arguments with people whose politics we basically agree with. A lot of us don't post as much as we used to. There's nothing safe to talk about. We come across as disloyal, angry, on the attack whenever we open our mouths. And the other side comes across as ideologues who seem to want only to purge and punish others for unorthodox thinking.

Don't you think there has been a lull in vigorous debate because of this self-imposed vow of silence? Some might say it has not seemed silent that there has been constant bickering and maybe this is so. It certainly has distracted people from the actual issues. Divided us too. DU divided the day Bush walked out the door and Obama walked in. We've kind of been fighting ever since. But make no mistake, we are not all agreed that the ship of state is sailing in the right direction. Not at all.

Many of us believe we have a serious leadership problem. Our politicians are all largely controlled by powerful outside interests. And our government is run by a shadow government of agencies whose actions are mostly covert.

So what do we do about it?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:26 PM

72. exactly , it's hypocritical and SICKENING and everybody knows their names.

what a sorry bunch.

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Response to boilerbabe (Reply #72)


Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:34 PM

73. There are a lot of smart people here.

Me? Not so much. But I am trying hard to get my brain around this subject.
I do know that humans have been tracked, watched and eavesdropped since the beginning of time, Friends, enemies and animals with good noses have always been able to find and follow us. When we walk we leave footprints, when we talk others can hear us. We leave droppings. Governments of all types thru history have opened mail and wiretapped and spied on their citizens. As better ways to communicate came along so did better ways of spying. As we agree to leave large electronic footprints in the electromagnetic snow we have little hope or expectation of privacy. Complete privacy from governments, corporations and people with bad intentions is something we've never had. Passports and tax forms and social security business are all ways of the govt locating us.
The crux of the matter it seems is INTENT. If someone is tracking me for the sole purpose of giving me a million dollars and a kiss, I will not complain. But government intentions can be hard to fathom. And they change. Governments change. I trust this President I voted for, but not the last one. I may not trust the next one. The spying will continue nonetheless. If you trust the government implicitly now and for the future this spying is not a terrible thing. But if you fear that someday the government might act with bad intentions it is frightening. And now my head hurts too.

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Response to pitchforx (Reply #73)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 05:50 PM

77. You raise interesting questions. (eom)

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Response to pitchforx (Reply #73)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:42 PM

119. Good points

And DU is now ranting as if the government only spies on "innocent citizens" which would be a waste of their time. Just maybe some of the time they are really spying on people who intend to do harm. Or spying on other spies (reminds me of the comedies about Russian and American spies spying on each other).

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Response to treestar (Reply #119)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:52 AM

134. The government probably spies on people who oppose their

wars, people who travel to China or have contact with people in China, people who "occupy" or "occupied," people who oppose fracking, people who oppose mining the tops off mountains, people who oppose drones -- and that includes a lot of people on DU.

I could be wrong, but those could be people who would likely be or have been at some point under surveillance.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #134)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:57 AM

150. Do you really know that

It would be wrong, but why do you assume all government agents do wrong, or that the government does wrong all the time? It's no better than right wingers claiming every welfare recipient is a fraud.

J. Edgar Hoover did such things. But that doesn't mean every FBI director is corrupt. And nobody has really pointed to a case of someone really suffering over it - we all have First Amendment rights and can say things that are as crazy as bat manure and keep doing it. If they are monitoring Fred Phelps somehow, it doesn't seem to stop him.

The only case I can think of now is Michelle Bachmann, maybe her prosecution could come from some sort of underhand spying. Then again, maybe that was not necessary. She's enough of a moron to have been easy to catch, not requiring data mining. And then if she's guilty, it's not just political persecution.

All of those protests you mention go on. The complaints about what the cops did to occupy - the cops didn't need spying to do that - the people were out there protesting.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:06 PM

81. The Patriot Act...

Wrong in 2001, wrong in 2013.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #81)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:29 PM

83. abso-effin-lutely!

in a perfect world i think and hope that Obama would have thrown it out the moment he got in to office.
By that time the Patriot Act was no longer just a law or a policy, it had grown into an infrastructure with deep corporate and bureaucratic roots, and the political landscape was against him on the issue, what w/ blue dogs etc... He folded.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:29 PM

84. We've always been at war with East Asia.

Good post, Will.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:50 PM

88. And to all those saying "You don't need to worry...

...if you've done nothing wrong."

Who gets to decide what's "wrong?" At what times do they get to change that decision arbitrarily? What are you doing right now that someone might consider coercive... subversive... treasonous?

You're posting on a political discussion board (or reading a political discussion board at least). I can only imagine you have political conversations with friends or family. Do you call your senator? Your city councilor?

It's hard to play the game when you don't know the rules.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 06:54 PM

90. You mean "people" like Senator Al Franken?

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/entry/al-franken-defends-nsa-surveillance-this-is-not

Look, I hear what you're saying. Every post I've made on this topic has shown my dismay that the Patriot Act was ever made policy. But it was.

And I'm sure your concern is genuine, as is mine. But I'd be even more concerned about being on the same side as the wildlings in GD on this or any issue.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #90)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 07:59 PM

97. "I'd be even more concerned about being on the same side as the wildlings in GD on this or any issue

"

Cuz that's my metric.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #97)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:44 PM

101. It's fine that you missed my point. But I have no idea why you'd be nasty about it as well

Wrong is fine. Nasty and wrong is another issue entirely.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #101)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:37 PM

117. Awfully sensitive for 13k posts.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #117)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 11:38 PM

126. Tone is always a consideration for good writers. Minimizes the chance of misunderstandings

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Response to Number23 (Reply #101)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:30 PM

153. Quoting you is nasty and wrong?

Really? Odd that.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #153)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:38 PM

170. The face palm smiley was what I was talking to WILL PITT about, thanks

Emphasis on WILL PITT. Again, thanks.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #170)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:40 PM

171. If you don't want anyone to reply to your posts on a PUBLIC Board

Maybe you should send a PM. Thanks to you too!

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #171)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:40 PM

172. Again to WILL PITT. Thanks

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Response to Number23 (Reply #172)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:42 PM

173. Your last post was to me, so I replied

Thanks.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 07:04 PM

91. Politics over principles

And it cuts across all affiliations:


Even independents. Hell, criticize the repubs all day long, but they changed their opinions on spying the least with changes in administration.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 07:15 PM

92. "many people agreeing vehemently"

Yup, that's DU!

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 07:18 PM

93. mind boggling, At least when the Republicans are in power Democrats believe in the Constitution

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 08:08 PM

98. Having not read any of the previous comments...

I, too, am amazed at all of the people who are all too fine with saying this is all well and good. It is total BS and we are slowly but steadily giving away all of our Liberties because of the fear of the ever present boogieman. It is just another way for the monied folk to get their hands deeper into our politicians well greased pockets. Funny how we have no money for healthcare, education, FOOD for the poor, but we have an endless supply of $ for those private firms to protect us (read: their interests), feed our soldiers, spy on us, ... We have become a nation of such weak people more concerned with whose dancing with the stars, or what trouble (insert talentless "star" here) is in to give a damn of the way our rights are being run roughshod over. Truly sad times we live in. Grow a pair people and stand up for our/your rights! If we don't we won't have any to protect.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 09:14 PM

108. I'm right there with you

K&R

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 09:55 PM

110. I suggest we all go back to using carrier pigeons to communicate.

It would reduce to 0.000001% the odds of being unconstitutionally spied upon.

Life would be peaceful, and fun again.

But seriously, I never said I support that sh*t, only that it's highly utopic to think it will ever be stopped.

And that if Obama was to be effective at stopping it unilaterally, he would be attacked by you know who as being weak on terra!!111!!1!911!!911 24/7 until November 2014.

These effers want to win the Senate just to impeach him because they can't stand a black family in the WH.

Remember 2010?? Death panels and all theiR otheR B$??

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:14 PM

111. I guess I should get rid of my shredder now

right? I mean, come on...why shred your files at home?

No need to answer. Just making the point.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:23 PM

114. To be fair, we are in part to blame........

For the past five years we have taken our eyes off the NSA, the patriot act the "War on Terror" et all.
We have been lending our support to this........
http://obamaachievements.org/list

And far too many of those accomplishments were won in the face of obstructionism rarely seen in this country.

Sheesh. How many things do you think we can fix at once.
If this is the next dragon to fight, so be it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:39 PM

118. It's a matter of where the balance is

the NSA just does the job, there's no point in supporting or attacking it.

We let those laws pass during the Bush administration, thus they are still on the books.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:44 PM

121. It certainly appears that far too many people have assimilated the Third Way/GOP meme that

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 10:52 PM

123. Great Post William Pitt! n-t

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 11:28 PM

125. Mine hurts too

because every time these issues of unchecked power get denied and delayed, they get passed on to the next administration.

On and on, until it becomes the new normal. Our country has too short an attention span--what was wrong during GWB is still wrong for the same reasons.

Electing good Representatives is AS important as making sure that core issues are not dropped from one administration to the next. Because obviously the mission creep to the right is going forward no matter who is in the White House.

We have to learn to stay as strongly focused on preventing this creep to the right as those who are working to advance it.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 11:39 PM

127. Hurts the brain and also the heart

and makes me worry for the world I will leave my children and you, your beautiful daughter.

My sons are paying attention, at least they should be able to figure out what is going on before it all comes down.

What a mess.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 11:44 PM

128. The war on terror is complete and utter hogwash. It's the war on the US Constitution.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:39 AM

131. The only problem I have with this situation is "why now?"

Will, these "secrets" have been pretty open, and most of us agree that it's wrong no matter who does it. Some of us are even still working to get these projects gone.

My primary concern is that the only reason there's been a bro-ha-ha of a leak is that there's no "President Romney" and his administrative toadies to keep the Bush-era NSA policies untouched through Congress and a packed Judiciary. The Sequester and the budget games have been shining the spotlight on how much all programs cost; I seriously doubt Snowden - who had apparently been having qualms (and probably voiced them) since 2005 would have been encouraged to whistle-blow if his cohorts wouldn't have been worried that their gravy train was being looked at and started supporting him in speaking out.
There are a lot of idealists who don't understand or won't acknowledge the massive amounts of manipulation in the private sector that goes on to "get the contract, keep it funded and make sure there's a follow-on" - they only see the job they're doing, and not how that job came to be and is continuing. And the higher-ups in these contractor companies have a very good idea on what motivates the individuals they hire at critical or classified positions, especially someone who has been operating at that level in classified programs for close to ten years and had enough of a reputation to overcome just having a GED.
That this is a cynical ploy by people making shitloads of money off the NSA and other questionable areas of the Government that will keep the focus on the Administration and work to hamstring it rather than fixes for the policies.
The problem I see is not what has been going on, or that there was finally a sponsored whistle-blower, but the entrenchment of profiteering off the US Government that has been going on since Poppy Bush wedded his corporate buddies to the CIA to run drugs to pay for "intelligence" programs. And it makes me suspicious that there's a whistleblower now, when there have been movements in the various oversight committees to question the validity of expenditures, and the Executive Office has started making moves about getting Congress to modify or getting rid of some of the Bush-era National Security policies.

So, when do we stop pointing fingers and start looking at the real problem?
In the NSA/spying issue, the problem is the Private Sector/Public Sector revolving door and contractors doing work "for the government" on their own terms, making their own policies with no responsibility if something goes wrong - work that the Government should be directing policy and providing the workforce on.

The Fourth Amendment (and the First, and Tenth, and Fourteenth) will stand, so long as no one can make much of a profit off weakening it. The reason they are in trouble, is that there are a few people with lots of money making even more money making laws and changing the meaning of the Constitution for their benefit. And unfortunately, only those hypocrites in Congress can really make it less profitable to do so, because they hold the purse-strings.

Haele

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 01:31 AM

136. I personally haven't seen that flavor of hypocrisy...

...but it still blows my mind that polls report over 50% of Americans are okay with this.

Which shouldn't even matter, since it's unconstitutional on its face.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:36 AM

138. Well, the good news is

that DU isn't RL.

But hey, who knew? All that GOP time and effort spent on convincing Americans that they should live in fear of the terrorists, when all they had to do to invoke fear was suggest that Obama was spying on EVERYONE - and let the sweat-flop chips fall where they may.

But, as I said, the good news is that DU isn't RL. In fact, it's not even close.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 06:20 AM

141. Obtuse much, Mr. Pitt?

 

NSA revelations = Bush war on terror? Really?

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 09:06 AM

146. I honestly don't know what to say....except where was the outrage 10 years ago

about this when we were outraged about it. Same issue. We can still blame Bush cause it was started under him, but yeah I don't understand all the people now acting like this is ok...on the other hand, I'm tired of fighting this and have been for 8 years.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 09:20 AM

147. I long for the days of DU before it became DU2. It makes my head hurt also Will.

The spying on Americans isn't so much about protecting us against terrorism, but about protecting the PTB from us if and when we get truly pissed and rise up. Someone posted here awhile back that "there are so many light post and so much rope and it is not being used".

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 10:33 AM

148. I see no problem with a variety of opinions.

Debating different views is healthier than everyone marching in lockstep. I welcome honest opinions that are different than mine as long as I retain the option of vociferously defending my own views.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 11:37 AM

151. Your brain would hurt less if you could cure yourself of oversimplification and binary thinking.

There are a lot of opinions here, and they are perhaps more nuanced and subtle than you say they are.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 11:41 AM

152. PNAC Lives

and its agents still occupy high office.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:34 PM

154. Bullshit. Most of us aren't "defending the NSA". We're pointing out that laws have been passed >

and there are ways to deal with these issues.

We also prefer FACTS. No conjecture.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 12:50 PM

155. Sorry to hear this is happening on DU. So chalk me up as one dem

who is not ok with what has been done to us in the name of this war on terror. It's bullshit to be rah-rah for politicians because of their professed political persuasion. It's the issues that matter. And the Democratic Party should be defined by what it stands for based on its members, not allegiance to the personality of an elected representative.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:08 PM

157. B-But Bush lied or something!!!1 nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:51 PM

160. obama made dubya's program legal

 

so it's okay now.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #160)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:25 PM

164. Well, he did promise "change". And, transparency....oh, wait.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 04:11 PM

167. A couple of points

1. I objected to the term "war on terror" and "Global war on terror" because they were nebulous terms that could mean anything.
President Obama does not use those terms. He focuses on the actual terrorists.

2. I objected to the Iraq war because it was a war based on lies.
President Obama has not gone to war based on lies.

3. I objected to Bush's warrantless wiretapping because that violated the law (FISA).
President Obama has gone back to getting FISA warrants for foreign surveillance.

4. I objected to torture.
One of President Obama's first acts was to order an end to so called "Enhanced Interrogation"

5. I objected to Bush's refusal to budge on LGBT rights
President Obama integrated the military in terms of LGBT folks and has moved the needle on DOMA.

6. I objected to Bush stealing the first election and probably stealing the second.
President Obama was overwhelmingly legitimately elected both times.
.
.
.
etc.

So you will understand my objections to folks who tell me "You are in favor of Obama doing the same things Bush has done."

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 08:26 PM

174. I would be pissed off about this if Dennis Kucinich or Alan Grayson did it.

It is the principle of the thing.

It is not about the D or R.
It is not about the color of the team jerseys.
It doesn't matter if it short circuits my brain because a guy who I liked did something wrong.

It is the principle of the thing.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:36 AM

179. The pew poll inside the latest Greenwald piece

Has your answer...it's flipped. Partisans are ok as long as it is their side doing it

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Response to WilliamPitt (Original post)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 11:39 AM

180. Still waiting for the reasoning from the 64%

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