Senator Al Franken on NSA surveillance

[sheshe2]

I wish I could embed this video, but I can't. Its Senator Al Franken talking about the NSA surveillance program. I don't always agree with my Senator. And he has certainly never shied away from challenging President Obama. But when it comes to trust - this guy is pretty close to the top of my list.

To summarize, he points out that as a member of the Judiciary Committee - he has availed himself of the briefings about NSA and nothing that was made public lately surprised him. He said, "There's certain things that its appropriate for me to know that its not appropriate for the 'bad guys' to know...So anything the American people know, the 'bad guys' know...I can assure you that this isn't about spying on the American people. This is about having the data available so that if there are suspicions about foreign persons or persons that have connections with terrorist organizations that we can connect the dots."

Thank you Senator. As I continue to weigh my own thoughts on all this, your view is one that is especially important to me.

http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/2013/06/senator-al-franken-on-nsa-surveillance.html


This is a great interview with Senator Franken: A must see.

Here: http://www.startribune.com/video/210859971.html#/210859971/video/1/eps

Thank you for correcting the link Tx!

[elleng]

1. "There's certain things that its appropriate for me to know that its not appropriate for the

'bad guys' to know...So anything the American people know, the 'bad guys' know...I can assure you that this isn't about spying on the American people. This is about having the data available so that if there are suspicions about foreign persons or persons that have connections with terrorist organizations that we can connect the dots."'

Thanks, she2. Makes sense, of course.

[sheshe2]

8. Excellent quote, is it not, elleng!

My favorite!

[leveymg]

27. The thing is, the Program has never stopped a single serious act of terrorism inside the U.S. The

"bad guys" appear to know something that the American people don't.

The only ones who persistently don't connect-the-dots are the federal officials tasked with protecting us.

[elleng]

28. I heard otherwise, from ?Rogers? of House ? Committee;

it DID work, at least once he mentioned.

[leveymg]

36. Sen DiFi claimed that the 2009 subway bomb plot was thwarted by PRISM. That mischaracterizes

the fact that the bombers were already known and under investigation. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2013/06/nsa-prism-zazi-subway-feinstein-rogers-phone.html If the Chair of the Senate Intel Comm can't come up with a single instance where the NSA Program has saved American lives after a decade of operation, something is very definitely wrong.

I wish that people would simply acknowledge the obvious. We're being scammed in the worst possible way by the MIC and intelligence contractors.

[randome]

35. You don't know that.

I would like them to give us SOME details of what good they've done but to say they have done nothing is based on...nothing.

[hr]
[font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font]
[hr]

[leveymg]

39. NSA's defenders can't cite a single solid case that's been thwarted by this thing. Burden is on them

now to demonstrate the Program's efficacy and necessity. So far, there's nothing.

[stevenleser]

85. Burden is on them, yes, to inform the Senate judiciary committee of successes, not the public

We vote for Senators who get security clearance to look over what the executive branch is doing.

As Al Franken said, if the public knows, the bad guys know. What little I have been able to gather is that there have been a dozen or more successes since 2001.

[sheshe2]

86. +1

Have been linking your transcript all over the place!

thanks, Steve!

[leveymg]

105. Not a big believer in an informed public are you? DiFi couldn't cite a single valid example

(and nor has any other defender of the Universal Surveillance State run by Ma Bell) of how this $80 billion Panopticon has protected us from any foreign terrorists. Not one example in a decade of operation.


Give us an example, Steven. We're not going to take merely your word on that. Even if there had been a dozen, that might still be a poor Return on Investment unless we know the specifics. If we're being asked to sacrifice the Fourth Amendment, we need proof that allowing the Telephone Company to record our every word is both necessary and effective.

The President needs a new analyst if he thinks he can continue to operate this way without a consensus of support for the Program.

[sheshe2]

111. Not a big believer in protecting our citizens are you!? You lose leveymg!

You are giving us a movie clip....with Steve McQueen as you source!?

Link please....not a Hollywood movie.

Here are the facts!

Stateville Prison, Joliet, IL: Art Object?
August 21, 2010 in Documentary, Fine Art, Historical | Tags: Andreas Gursky, David Leventi, Doug Dubois, Illinois, Jim Golberg, Joliet, Stateville Prison




USA. Illinois. 2002. Stateville Prison. F house. There were originally four circular cell houses radiating around a central mess hall. The buildings were based on Jeremy Bentham's 1787 design for the panopticon prison house. The first round house was completed in 1919, the other three were finished in 1927. F house is the last remaining panopticon cell house. It's used for segregating inmates from the general prison population and for holding inmates who are awaiting trial or transfer. -Doug DuBois & Jim Goldberg.

The above description is what follows your first picture!

You post is laughable , fiction pure and simple!



http://prisonphotography.org/2010/08/21/stateville-prison-joliet-il-art-object/

[sheshe2]

113. With bated breath

I await your response about the "cell house", leveymg.

[stevenleser]

122. There are plenty of examples. All you have to do is google. Virtually every prevented terror attack

in the US in the last 12 years owes part of that stoppage to this program. One excellent example is the thwarted subway attack here in NYC in 2009

[sheshe2]

114. Steve

please read my post, to leveymg #105.

Compete falsehood, misleading lie.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2989735

[graham4anything]

119. actually, this is silly and not logical at all. Nothing happening means events thwarted.It works.

[elleng]

41. Right, and they have problems stating exactly what good they've done,

letting MORE intel out, so f'd if do and f'd if don't.

[tammywammy]

2. Interesting n/t

[LeftInTX]

3. Thank you, Sheshe!

[baldguy]

4. Well, Franken is just another cryptofascist acolyte of the extremist RW corporatists.

Just like Obama.

[Laelth]

5. I respect Senator Franken enough to k&r this.

I'd still prefer the program's termination.

-Laelth

[awoke_in_2003]

17. I can agree with that. nt

[sheshe2]

29. Thank you Laelth, and I mean that.

You and I will never see eye to eye on issues, however I have a question for you. It is a sincere question.

What is the answer?How do we keep America safe. What can we give to make our sweet Nation safe. I am not in any way being snarky and it is not a gotcha question. However how do we do it.

We can not sit back and just wait and see. I do not want to see another 9/11 in my life time, nor another embassy attacked or another bomb exploding at a celebration for our Patriots. I never personnaly knew anyone at 9/11, nor anyone at the embassy attacks. Doesn't matter they still hurt my soul. As for Boston, yes it touched me personally. I had friends, very good friends that were hurt by the attack.

I never wish to see or feel this again, though I know we will. So I ask you, sincerely, how do we make our citizen safer.

Thank you Laelth.

[marions ghost]

73. A strong nation doesn't spy on its citizens without just cause

We need new laws and new govt policy that protects citizens from abuse of this type of data collection by either corporations or the government.

It can be done --but first people have to understand that there is a PROBLEM here--a big problem.

Doing this will not compromise "safety." That is just not true.

Please consider the fact that it is not a "safe" way to live--to have no idea who has access to our data and for what purpose.

[jberryhill]

83. "abuse of this type of data collection"

That's a key phrase that can be looked at in two ways.

The reason we are concerned about data collection is because it can be used to ends which are improper. That's the point. The point of concern is not "data collection" per se, but assorted questions of how the data is collected, how much is collected, who has access to it, what kinds of things can be done with it, and whether the policies around those questions have teeth.

One can take the position that if there was utterly no level of data collection and bulk analysis, then - problem solved - it is not there to be abused.

One can also take the position that "data collection" per se does no harm, but the concern is what the data is, in fact, used to do.

So I find your phrase interesting because one of either position can agree with it, as it can be read as "this type of data collection" being an abuse per se, or as expressing concern about abuse "of this type of data collection."

[marions ghost]

87. Didn't mean it to be ambiguous

--just meant to separate it from legitimate types of data collection, the info you willingly give the govt in various ways.

I don't consider this type of data collection to be legitimate. IMO it is abuse per se.

[sheshe2]

88. With just cause and legal warrants they can.

With just warrant's a Strong Nation can in fact protect our citizens.

Please consider marion, when the rule of law is followed we are a safer nation.

[marions ghost]

92. Legal warrants from secret courts?

We need protection from a government that does that sort of thing. A strong nation has citizens who trust the govt to work in our favor. This is an example of why many don't trust the government.

There is the rule of law, and there are many bad laws. When a law is bad, debate is opened and ethical arguments should win.

We are in no way a safer nation because of government data mining of all citizens.

In NO way safer. Much more exposed to abuses of various kinds.

[sheshe2]

94. You are correct, Bushco did abuse those powers.

[marions ghost]

96. And that abuse is ongoing

under Obama. Not that I think he could single-handedly go against the forces that want to keep it in place. That push will have to come from The People.

[grasswire]

107. the truth is that we can't be safe all the time

It is just statistically impossible. And our collective fear of terrorism is disproportionate to the threat. Way more mayhem comes to us in the form of car crashes and weather systems and murders and so on, and yet we still get in our cars and go about our business every day with little terror in our hearts. The Brits in WW2 had a saying: "Stay calm and carry on" while bombs were literally falling on their heads. Are we any less resolute or brave?

[Laelth]

118. Forgive the delay.

I saw this post yesterday, but your kind and generous response deserved a thoughtful reply, so I took some time to think about it.

The safety and security of American citizens has always been a primary interest of the Federal Government. Neither President Obama nor the Democratic Party can abandon this fundamental mission, nor should they. That said, nobody wants to see another terrorist attack in the U.S., but, if we're honest with ourselves, I think we have to admit that no amount of data collection, no increased security measures, and no further restrictions on the rights of Americans can ever ensure that we won't be attacked again. Instead, we are forced to think in terms of balancing national security interests (on the one hand) with the rights of Americans (on the other). My personal opinion, as you can imagine, is that long lines at airports, taking off shoes, and going through a nudie scanner, do very little to make us safer while simultaneously stripping Americans of significant privacy rights. The same goes for the NSA's data-collection activities. On balance, the NSA can't prove that all this data stopped a single terrorist attack. It certainly didn't stop the Boston attacks, even though the NSA has been collecting this data since 2006. When I weigh that against the loss of Americans' rights to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures and to be secure in their papers, it appears to me that we gain very little security from the NSA's activities while sacrificing significant rights. What we gained with the Patriot Act and the FISA Amendment is the illusion of safety, and little more. I am not, personally, willing to sacrifice the 4th Amendment for the illusion of safety. If these measures could be shown to provide additional, real security, my conclusion might be different. I would have to weigh the real security gained against the loss of significant rights, but, absent such evidence, I think the 4th Amendment should prevail, here.

Let me also say that in my conversations with neighbors, with local Democrats, and with local citizens (when I was running for office last year) I was reminded that security is an issue that is on people's minds, but it's not terrorism that people in my area are worried about. Not a single person to whom I spoke last year is worried about terrorists. The panic and paranoia of the post-9/11 days is over. No, what my friends and neighbors are worried about is crime. They're worried about gang activity. They're worried about getting hit by a stray bullet. Many of them are more worried about getting shot by the police than they are about terrorists. Yes, they want safety and security, but they perceive that "local" dangers are more significant than foreign ones. If we want to reduce that very real fear, what we need to do is combat poverty. We tolerate far too much poverty in the United States, as you know, and it is from poverty and hopelessness (principally) that our most pressing and immediate security risks emerge.

Of course, the political climate has not allowed a real war on poverty since LBJ's in the 1960s. My hope is that we can begin to address poverty in earnest in 2016 (at the earliest) or 2020 (at the latest). I seriously doubt that we can pick up enough House seats in 2014 to be able to move on this issue. A charismatic candidate in 2016 might give us the coat-tails needed to secure the House. When we redistrict in 2020, however, I am pretty certain (given the demographic trends) that Democrats will be in control of the House, the Senate, and (probably, depending on our nominee) the White House. At that point we may be able to do something real to improve the safety and security of Americans, starting at home (where we should begin) rather than focusing on nebulous threats from overseas. Not that we should ignore foreign threats. We have the CIA and the most powerful military in the history of the planet to protect us from foreign threats. That's enough, and it's more than our founders envisioned (I imagine the Founders being appalled by the CIA). I, personally, am not willing to sacrifice my 4th Amendment rights for a mere illusion, and I have Ben Franklin backing me up on this one: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." If we wish to live in a free society (and I do), we must be willing to risk a little insecurity. In the long run, more people die in auto accidents every year in the U.S. than the combined total of all people ever killed by terrorists. I would not begin to suggest banning the automobile, even though doing so would demonstrably make us all safer. No, the interests of freedom must prevail if we are to remain a free society.

I have rambled on long enough, but I wanted to add that I have to vehemently disagree with one statement you made. You said, "You and I will never see eye to eye on issues." I beg to differ. I suspect that you and I see eye to eye on most issues. In the long run, we are allies, and I am very glad of that.



-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--sloppy proofreading.

[druidity33]

128. Maybe we can make ourselves safer

by curtailing our military endeavors in other parts of the world? I suspect people wouldn't hate us (or even pay attention to the US) if we didn't keep butting our noses into other Nations' conflicts...

[Tx4obama]

6. Here's the right link for the Al Franken video

Here: http://www.startribune.com/video/210859971.html#/210859971/video/1/eps


p.s. the link up in the OP went to a video about the St. Paul Ford plant.

[sheshe2]

10. Oh Jeez.....

Thanks, going to use this to update, thanks Tx.

[DirkGently]

7. I like Franken. Like the EFF too. And they've

been trying to get this administration to reveal how the NSA broke the law in 2011, but have been met with the Bush / Cheney-esque argument that national security enititles them to never tell us.

That's wrong. Sliced, diced, or puréed.

[BlueCheese]

9. Franken is the first person I vaguely trust to come out and support this.

Though four days ago, he was being much more cautious, saying only that he had heard of "programs like this one" and that he still had concerns, such as "we have to see what safeguards there are and how this program is structured, and how this data is used and whether it’s stored, for example."

http://www.minnpost.com/dc-dispatches/2013/06/franken-look-more-info-nsa-phone-records-requests

So four days ago, he hadn't heard of this particular program, and didn't know what safeguards there are, or even whether the data is stored (what alternative is there besides storing it?). Those seem like fundamental issues that he should have known about, no? Maybe in the past four days he's found out enough to put his mind at ease, but it doesn't sound like he was well-briefed on them beforehand.

And who's briefed him? The same people who told Senator Wyden directly that they were not gathering data on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?

[Recursion]

11. Four days ago this was being presented like a new and unknown program

The intervening 4 days may have cleared that up for Senator Franken

[BlueCheese]

12. I would think he would recognize it immediately.

If we're talking about the phone records case. How many programs can the NSA have to vacuum up every single phone call in the country?

[Recursion]

14. At least two, apparently... (nt)

[okaawhatever]

13. Less than a year ago there was a big New York Times article on the same thing. They called the

project Stellar Wind. Prism may be a newer or updated version of the old program.

[sheshe2]

18. IMHO

Franken, the chairman of the Senate’s Privacy, Technology and the Law Subcommittee, said he’d learned about “programs like this one” through classified briefings before, but he still had questions about the National Security Agency’s practice of requesting records from cellular companies like Verizon.

“We have to see what safeguards there are and how this program is structured, and how this data is used and whether it’s stored, for example,” he said.

Senator Franken knows far more than he will speak of openly. He is an intelligent, well qualified Senator from
Minnesota. He stated that what we the people know, the enemies and or terrorists do also. This is about transparency, which is needed. However, as a national security measure, some things must be classified, for the protection of this nation. It would be shear stupidity to tell our enemies of our plans to thwart them.

Franken knows this. That is why he has my respect, BlueCheese.

[BlueCheese]

20. He may be intelligent and well-intentioned...

... but many other intelligent and well-intentioned people have reached the opposite viewpoint.

I think the burden of proof is on the government to justify this program, and even an assurance from Franken is not enough.

Also, some people (perhaps not you) claim this is old news. If so, what's the big deal about it being made public?

[sheshe2]

23. Being made public,

is fine. Being broadcast as a new story is. It was presented with little facts, and much innuendo by Greenwald.

Much of his statements ( lies or misinformation) have been debunked.

This is a transcript of a broadcast by stevenleser last night. It is a great read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110210510

It contains a lot of facts, BlueCheese.

[mountain grammy]

47. Thank you, sheshe, for this link and your post.

I've been waiting for all the shoes to drop before jumping into any conversation on the NSA issue. Steven Leser filled in a lot of blanks for me. He's really good, isn't he?

[sheshe2]

48. He is mountain grammy!

I had only gotten home from work when I saw he gave me a heads up for the broadcast. I missed a bit, however I was delighted to see that he posted the transcript!

Facts wins every damn time, do they not!?!!!

[freshwest]

51. K & R

[sheshe2]

54. It was a great post by steveleser!

He stated that he never posts a transcript! I am so happy he did. Facts above fiction! They win every damn time in my book!

So good to see you, freshwest!


On another front...2nd debate tomorrow in Boston. Markey vs Gomez. I will miss the first half, working.

[freshwest]

64. Can you TIVO it or whatever is done now? I used to set the VCR...

[sheshe2]

66. Steve posted the transcript here!

A great read, freshwest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110210510

Enjoy a few facts!

[freshwest]

76. Ah, no. I got the podcast and transcript. Was asking about the debate.

[sheshe2]

84. Ah, I will check about the first one.

I found nothing but a this clip all the rest were garbage...like chuck todd reporting.

will keep trying...

not much here either

http://www.wickedlocal.com/boxford/newsnow/x1466761693/Gomez-Markey-square-off-in-debate#axzz2VsNSFfEt

So sorry~

[freshwest]

90. Ugh, that was unpleasant! But Markey isn't going to let anything sneak by, either.

Don't worry, just GOTV!

[sheshe2]

91. Markey really took him to school

at the debate.....I just could not find anything....Chuckie was out of the question. To painful to here his voice!

[mountain grammy]

62. Indeed they do, the man's a gem.

[MADem]

112. Have those other intelligent and well-informed people received the same briefings on

the topic that AF has?

[pnwmom]

15. He's the voice of common sense. Thank you for the post. n/t

[indepat]

16. We can take great comfort in the fact that no future president will ever use the vast

resources of this surveillance state to ever build an enemies' list.

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

19. I have the greatest respect for the senator

but if what we are learning is true... Vacuuming up EVERYTHING then that is wrong, not to mention unconstitutional.

[DCBob]

21. Well I guess Al is under the bus with the rest of us who think the outrage is nonsense.

Perhaps the critics will take deep breath now and take a more reasoned look at this.

[joc46224]

22. We're talking pedabytes worth of data

I've been in IT for 30 years now and the sort of database that (some) people keep talking about--a permanent database that is storing all sorts of information (phone records, credit card info, internet searches, etc) for every single American is literally impossible. The massive amounts of storage required for just one days worth would be in the hundreds of pedabytes. And for anything to be "permanent" you'd need to be able to back it up to a different media source, right? I mean, hardware does fail so anything you want to keep permanent you need to back up. There aren't enough hours in the day to back up this much data, especially if it's constantly getting updated with millions upon millions upon millions of additional records. Let's say it was physically possible to house all that massive data--doubling in size every day as more data is collected--there isn't the manpower to go through all that data. I honestly don't believe our government is that efficient. So I don't believe for a second the Government has some massive data center somewhere making permanent copies of all this data. I mean, you're talking all of AT&T's data, all of Verizon's data, all of Google's data, all of Yahoo's data, all credit card companies data. No way. Heck, each of those individual companies have numerous offices, data centers, and IT staff to manage their data.


More feasible would be that the Government isn't duplicating the data but is somehow able to get access to it. However the idea that these companies would let the government have direct access to their databases, with a super user account that could potentially cause damage if someone issues the wrong command, that stretches credibility. No way is Google or Facebook going to allow some government IT person direct access to their databases, the heart of their business. Now we're talking major $$$$ if someone screws it up. Finally, the number of IT people at each of those companies who'd have to be aware of a direct connection from the government, and never breathe a word of it. Well, I don't believe it for a second. Someone would go home and tell a boyfriend, girlfriend, spouse, whatever and the word would have gotten out a looooong time ago. I think it's more likely that the Government has certain criteria they use to narrow down who they want to monitor and then they somehow get those companies to give them that information. And that's the part I want to know more about. What sort of justification does the Government need to gain access to a particular individual's information? My suspicion is not much, and that's infuriating to me. But a permanent database for all of us? No.

[Half-Century Man]

24. What about a flashdrive?

The size of Ohio.

[Mr.Bill]

38. Good post. I agree totally.

Now the only problem is the 50+% of the country that not only think they can do this, but they also think the government has people sitting in a room somewhere reading and analyzing all of it.

[KittyWampus]

89. I wish you'd post this as an OP. Really. If you have time.

[MsPithy]

109. 5 zettabytes of space

at the Utah data center. NSA "can harvest 2.1 million gigabytes of data per hour... the Titan Supercomputer, is capable of churning through more than 20,000 trillion calculations each second or 20 petaflops."

http://www.businessinsider.com/pictures-of-the-nsas-utah-data-center-2013-6

Please have a look at this, and please convince me that I am wrong to be worried. Really, I don't like the looks of this one bit! I would love to be wrong.

[DCBob]

124. This is what I think is happening..

I suspect its a duplicate copy of all IP and phone call traffic that is being rerouted to an NSA network which is then sniffed for key words, red flags, odd patterns, etc. When it finds something of interest then that data section is captured and stored in a database. This data is then further analyzed for more specific information of interest. So only a tiny portion is actually captured and stored.

Agreed they cant possible store everything. The storage would be astronomical and even if possible they couldnt index it and search it effectively/practically.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

130. I don't think they're quite there, but I believe they have a project plan

The daily doubling of data you mention would last for exactly one day. The following day, it would increase by 1/3. The next day, one quarter, then a fifth, and so on. More importantly, the biggest constraints on such a program would be sufficient storage, processing power, electrical power, cooling, and bandwidth. They've got a better budget than anyone else I can think of. They've got a one million square foot data center in Utah--a million! The rest is just about building capacity. I'm sure they also work on some advanced filtering that, in addition to other benefits, would mean less data would need to be stored, gaining them some efficiencies. Admittedly, I'm not a database guy--i do networks. i can well imagine nightmare scenarios with databases of the necessary size, but im just as sure that they can throw millions at the best in the business to come up with some world-crushing distributed database system. there may be huge challenges, but throwing virtually unlimited budget at the problems would likely get them a long way, wouldnt you think?

I truly believe they're building capacity with an ultimate goal of surveilling and storing long-term data on as many people on the planet they feel they may one day need to investigate. And I think that will turn out to be a monstrously huge number.

[Botany]

25. dogs trust Al

[nineteen50]

26. No

it is about the meta-data collection to define other political organizations intentions to react in a manner beneficial to the power elite.

[sheshe2]

55. Link?

[nineteen50]

79. My observation

think occupy

[JI7]

30. i guess Al Franken is no Ron Paul

[kpete]

31. most xlnt

and thank you

peace, kp

[sheshe2]

34. ~

Peace kpete, to us all!

[Kath1]

32. I'm glad Senator Franken is calmly talking common sense on this topic.

Thanks, she!

[DrewFlorida]

33. Thank you Senator Franken, I now feel ok with the work of the NSA.

[woo me with science]

37. Franken is horribly wrong on this.

Franken is right on many issues, but he is gravely, disturbingly wrong on this, just as he was absolutely wrong in supporting SOPA and PIPA.

[graham4anything]

40. Thank you senator Al Franken. Who gave up his LUCRATIVE entertainment career & has worked hard

He actually did what I wish Nader had done- he didn't become a cottage industry, he actually ran
for public service office, and he won, and has worked day in, day out WITHIN the system.

He didn't have to. He could have stayed outside of it, and done this or that, but he did it WITHIN

Al Franken became the Jimmy Stewart character Mr. Smith who went to Washington and didn't go and have a chatty talk show, and he just did.

From within.
Like so many of the 60s protesters have come to learn- one works from within.

He DID.

Al actually put HIS money where his mouth was. Thank you Al.


and remember-when he WON his election, the REPUBLICANS stopped from seating him for months and months.
(meaning the super majority was NOT there).

[sheshe2]

44. Excellent reminder to one and all, Graham!

and remember-when he WON his election, the REPUBLICANS stopped from seating him for months and months.
(meaning the super majority was NOT there).

[freshwest]

69. +1,000!

[stupidicus]

42. this Al Franken?

But he danced around the question of why Democrats like Al Franken and Tom Harkin join with Republicans to defeat an amendment restoring funds to the food stamp program.

_______________________________________________

The thing is, this is the second time it's been cut this way, with the same exact offset. Last year they let $5 billion get chopped out of the program which means this year there will be even more hungry people. And this came from our progressive Senators like Harkin and Franken.

When exactly do hungry people take precedence over greedy farmers, and why aren't Democrats standing up for what's right? The answer to the first question should yield an answer the second one.

http://crooksandliars.com/taxonomy/term/31533

whatta guy

[Monkie]

43. so basically he is saying that snowdon is telling the truth, wrapped up in pretty words.

.I can assure you that this isn't about spying on the American people. This is about having the data available so that if there are suspicions about foreign persons or persons that have connections with terrorist organizations that we can connect the dots

the system collects and stores all data so that when they decide someone is suspicious they can press "rewind" and know everything about that person. in case you havent noticed that data is being collected on your supposed allies, check the leaked slides for detail. in case you didnt notice, american companies with considerable presence in europe complied with this in breach of european and international law, and your senator just admitted to it, the senator may not face any legal consequences for this, but those companies certainly will.

if you do not find those capabilities chilling then i think you are a very frightening person.

is this what a free country looks like?

[sheshe2]

46. Links please.

american companies with considerable presence in europe complied with this in breach of european and international law, and your senator just admitted to it,

He is the peoples Senator, from the Great State of Minnesota~

I am from the Great State Massachusetts.

I am frightening? How so.

I for one believe in our freedoms, all of them. I believe in our freedom to live not die from the people that wish us harm.

A sincere question, it truly is. What do we do to protect our citizens.?

[woo me with science]

75. Well said.

Glad to see you at DU. I've seen some excellent posts by you today.

[winter is coming]

45. Do you know what Al Franken knows about NSA surveillance?

What they choose to tell him.

[upi402]

52. True! And he, JUST LIKE ME

bought into Colin Powel's bullshit in the run-up to the Iraq war.

sadly

[quakerboy]

63. Thats all most of us know

Except the people doing it.

Its human nature to lie. We like to cover over inconvenient truths, or ones that make us look bad, or things that might cause us some consequences.

then you get to people who lie for a living, and then into the people who do it for fun.


Funny enough there seems to be a contradictory drive to expose things and share things too. People are odd critters.

[sheshe2]

65. No.

Do you? My security level is not that high.

One of the most vocal critics of this president, defends him.

Instantly you label him a robot. Fed info by master, no intelligence required.

Ok, have a good evening.

[winter is coming]

71. No, you're the one who labeled Franken a robot.

I merely pointed out that it's entirely possible that the NSA hasn't been as forthcoming as it's supposed to be.

[1StrongBlackMan]

49. Oh my ...

Now I have to put Franken in the other column too.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

50. If Sen Franken is endorsing the surveillance program, as represented by the blogger, why can't

that endorsement be found on Franken's web site?

http://www.franken.senate.gov/

[MsPithy]

53. Here comes the cold water.

Why do they need all of everybody's information? Every bit of information on everyone?

[sheshe2]

60. Where does it say that they are collecting every bit of data on everyone!

and where would that be stored!

As of June 1, 2013, the United States had a total resident population of 316,024,000,

Are you serious!

Facts please.

[MsPithy]

97. I am sorry to have to break this to you,

the NSA's Prism project will reach into providers' servers without a warrant and receive real time surveillance and stored data consisting of: E-mail, chat, video and voice, videos, photos, stored data, VoIP like Skype, file transfers, video conferencing, notification of target activity-logins, social networking details, etc. What else is there?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data

http://www.infoworld.com/t/cringely/nsa-everyone-take-your-prism-its-good-you-220344


And where will they store every bit of data on everyone? Well, 5 zettabytes will be going to Bluffdale, Utah. The NSA will harvest 2.1 million gigabytes of data per hour.

http://www.businessinsider.com/pictures-of-the-nsas-utah-data-center-2013-6


"The highly-classified project will be responsible for intercepting, storing and analyzing intelligence data as it zips through both domestic and international networks. The data may come in all forms: private e-mails, cell phone calls, Google searches – even parking lot tickets or shop purchases.

“This is more than just a data center,” an official source close to the project told the online magazine Wired.com. The source says the center will actually focus on deciphering the accumulated data, essentially code-breaking.

This means not only exposing Facebook activities or Wikipedia requests, but compromising “the invisible” Internet, or the “deepnet.” Legal and business deals, financial transactions, password-protected files and inter-governmental communications will all become vulnerable.

William Binney, NSA’s former senior mathematician-gone-whistleblower, holds his thumb and forefinger close together and tells the on-line magazine:

“We are that far from a turnkey totalitarian state.”

http://rt.com/news/utah-data-center-spy-789/

[burnodo]

101. +1

^^^^^^^^^

[MsPithy]

129. Yooo Hooo!

I presented facts, where are you?

[Timbuk3]

56. This shocked me

As a general rule, Franken approaches "hero" status with me.

But he's dead wrong, this time.

[jazzimov]

57. Thank you, Senator Franken! nt

[ReRe]

58. Say... did you contact him to explain...

... why he voted for cutting the food stamps on that bill back on March 21, this year? Just wondering. Thanks for this OP.

[bbgrunt]

59. Mr. Franken's support for the Iraq war illustrated his judgment in such matters for me.

And yes, I know he wasn't in the Senate at the time, but I have read his books.

[DevonRex]

61. Thank you. I can tell you what I've figured out today. It has to do with private

vs government possession of the data, how long it's kept, who has enough storage for it, and the FORM in which it's kept. This is why the facility was built in Utah. Enough room for encrypted storage. Encryption protects the individual and the data. Keeping it for longer time in one place increases the chances that patterns will emerge across multiple providers.

It's all very logical and it's all very safe.

[sheshe2]

98. Bless you Devon.

Logic over hysterics.

It soothes the soul. It really does.

[DevonRex]

99. Thank you.

I appreciate it.

[GeorgeGist]

126. You forgot to add ...

and will never be used for evil.

[DevonRex]

127. I'm too cautious

to say that. When you've worked in MI you develop a healthy respect for the things that could go wrong and for people's concerns. There's always somebody out there trying to get around the system. Like Snowden. Even though he couldn't do what he said he could do. His claims are ridiculous.

[felix_numinous]

67. If only every rep were like Al Franken

Then we could all rest easy. Unfortunately there are others like the Bushes, Cheneys and other sociopaths. Citizens' rights are to protect us from these people, not the nice ones, who would never abuse their position.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

68. I like Al Franken, but I vehemently disagree with him here, even knowing he's privy to more

...information than I have.

I don't want the NSA to have access to anyone's records without a specific court order--the kind that doesn't cover a hundred million Americans. Police work will get the job done without us having to be a paranoid surveillance state.

[polynomial]

70. Frankly Franken

Operating in such a way that it is easy for others to see what actions are performed would be nice if the politicians could do that. But that’s the basic definition of transparency, simple representation with good feedback from our elected leadership.

Since our mainstream media culture is driven by terror, torture, and profiteering through Corporatism, terms used as an economic and political system controlled by corporations that is tightly coupled to the fossil fuel system.

The Bush/ Cheney/ Bin Laden oil robber baron era. Our America is loaded with torture and secret gulags to be able to save the country from Islamic destruction. When in fact these wars are designed to divide the world at the same time leverage for profiteering easy money better to leverage a deal when a significant other is captured and tortured for ransom. Bush is expert at that, and so are the black water mercenaries.

Many of Americans should think hard that it is wiser to squeeze data then to squeeze a body part as a war strategy. At least America would have a taxable industry to finance to war.

[Honeycombe8]

72. Hmmm. I DO respect his opinion, so this is something to think about. nt

[Savannahmann]

74. Again, the Government is saying Trust Us.

Perhaps Senator Franken can tell us why the Fourth Amendment no longer applies to Americans? Something the bad guys shouldn't know? As was proven in Boston, apparently they are the only ones who DO know besides the thousand plus contractors who are spying on us.

Sorry Senator, on many issues, you have my whole hearted full throated support. On this one Sir, you most certainly do not.

[forestpath]

77. +1

[dennis4868]

78. Thank you Senator Franken

You make so much sense!

[BootinUp]

80. Franken is no dummy

he is also not a right wing authoritarian. I value his opinion as well.

[kickysnana]

81. XP hi from europe, i "love" watching "democrats" apologise for fascism!

http://www.briskshopping.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=605835

I was thinking someone should go down, sit down and go over history with our Good Senator. He knows better. Free speech. Use it or lose it. Defend the Constitution or that will go away too. That means blowing the whistle when people in our government give away the farm, the town, the park, the school, the church and the vegetable garden because everyone else is doing it.

We have jumped the shark and left truth, justice and the American way in the rubble of what followed the stolen election of 2000.

[sheshe2]

93. Your link is for Jelly Shoes.

Great source, thanks kickysnana.



I have one for you too.

Facts not Jelly~

FISA was created by Ted Kennedy for two reasons. First, it was created as a response to President Nixon using warrantless wiretaps and other searches to target political opponents and activist groups. The other reason it was created was made clear by one of the US Court of appeals decisions that affirmed the constitutionality of FISA, and that is the 1984 US v Duggan decision

Senator Kennedy and President Carter did not like the idea of warrantless wiretapping even though it was judged in the case of foreign espionage and terrorism to be Constitutional …so they created FISA which requires the Justice Department and intelligence agencies of the executive branch to get a judge to sign off on a warrant in order to conduct these surveillances. It also gives a number of congressional committees the ability to look over these warrants.

President Obama did nothing wrong and there is no scandal here, at least not in terms of the administration. The reporting of this issue by Greenwald and other journalists and pundits, well there you might have a scandal. The history and context matters and not providing those things in this situation completely alters the meaning of the story and is a veritable journalistic crime. Greenwald should be ashamed of himself, and many other journalists and pundits out there should also feel ashamed of themselves.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110210510

[kickysnana]

117. Real Linkie

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022985622

Puts a cap on a truly annoying day. I was looking for Jelly shoes are for 4 year old Annie
just before I posted and it appears all the other 4 year olds' grandmother's got there before I did.

Your great-grandparents are spinning in their graves. Part of the debate over Social Security was giving everyone a number they could hang files on. Legislation said it was only to be used for Social security, (not credit cards, medical records or lottery games.)

We have had no tyranny here, no war on our soil (thank goodness) we have forgotten how it is done but our ancestors had not.

It is insane what they are doing, what they are spending money on when our schools are so poor, our health care non-existant for too many Americans. Foreign policy is only about weapons. Prisons, mental health, addiction are all being done wrong and we know it but we let them do what they want anyway because it isn't a "scandal?"

[Cha]

103. Too bad you don't get to see it, then.

[sheshe2]

106. Snort!

[Egalitarian Thug]

82. He might have a little more credibility if he hadn't just voted to take the food out of poor

children's mouths.

I suppose we were supposed to have forgotten that already.

[woo me with science]

115. He also voted for SOPA and PIPA.

He has been on the correct side of some issues, but on these critical ones he is clearly as beholden to the corrupt, corporate Washington power structure as the vast majority of Congress.

We have a problem of corporate corruption so deep and thorough and entrenched in this country that even those who likely go to Washington with good intentions usually end up toadying for the One Percent.

It is apparently going to be up to the people, plus a few courageous voices inside the system, to create enough of an outcry and pressure to force the changes that need to happen to save this country.

[Egalitarian Thug]

123. Well I'll give him this, he is a much better actor than I gave him credit for.

But having too much experience with actors to have any illusions, I should have known. Must have been that the optimist deep within escaped for a bit. Not going to let that happen again.

I'm not however, worried about the pirates. They are more than capable of protecting themselves.

Let it flow.

[liberal_at_heart]

95. Well then let me just stop thinking for myself and agree with him on this issue just because

I have agreed with him on other issues in the past.

[Cha]

102. No, just keeping buying that shit that Glenn Greenwald

is selling.

[graham4anything]

120. +a millon. nt

[Cha]

100. Finally, she! We're hearing from someone

who knows about this shite.. who, says exactly what I've been thinking!

Senator Franken is not Surprised! those who were disingenously Shocked and pleaded Ignorance are using it for political gain.. and to push their own agenda.

Thank you, she! Good Find!

[Cha]

104. "Careful, he's Watching You"!

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/06/11/chat-away-172/

Photos Of Obama Reading Your Email

“MY GOD. Not the children!”

How did we never see this before! Inspired by Obama Is Checking Your Emai

http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/photos-of-obama-reading-your-email

All the pics are Hilarious..

Great Thread, She!

[sheshe2]

108. I have tears running down my cheeks

I am laughing so hard!

2. “GREAT! Now he knows your damn passwords, FALLON.”






Oh Noooooes The Children!

Perfect!

[Cha]

110. I know.. it's just too FUNNY!

You're cracking me up, too, she!

[Botany]

121. The Barack Man is just going old school there

[Tx4obama]

116. K&R :) n/t

[colsohlibgal]

125. There Are Things To Like About Al But A Lot Also To Seriously Question

He is a smart guy, and can be really funny. But his take on Iraq was troubling and even more, on his old Air American show he would curtly cut off anyone who dared to question the 2000 election or any election. He was in the camp that we should not broach the subject because people would then be less likely to vote. So we're supposed to blindly accept the 2000 coup and the 2004 possible flip?

Al can be a real establishment type and it can be really frustrating for someone much more in tune with folks like Bernie Sanders.