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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:07 AM Jun 2013

If you truly believe Obama is spying on Americans, why not call for his impeachment?

It's illegal: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022973979

If you don't think there is anything to debate, and you're absolutely certain the President is breaking the law, what is stopping you from demanding his impeachment?

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If you truly believe Obama is spying on Americans, why not call for his impeachment? (Original Post) ProSense Jun 2013 OP
because it's not that simple. nt LaydeeBug Jun 2013 #1
It is that simple. ProSense Jun 2013 #5
If the whole gov't is corrupt, it's foolish to pretend impeaching Obama will do anything. reformist2 Jun 2013 #45
No, really, it's not since we have a law making this legal...pretending we don't have that LaydeeBug Jun 2013 #50
If He, If He humbled_opinion Jun 2013 #60
Why not focus on solving the problem instead of playing politics? nt Th1onein Jun 2013 #2
Right, it's not like the presidency is a political institution... Deep13 Jun 2013 #12
Exactly Life Long Dem Jun 2013 #41
Wow, same two options Bush gave us. Pholus Jun 2013 #3
Oh please, ProSense Jun 2013 #7
Ja Wohl Herr Commissar, Pholus Jun 2013 #24
No, ProSense Jun 2013 #25
This entire data mining crap is a problem. Pholus Jun 2013 #26
No, that isn't what I said. n/t ProSense Jun 2013 #28
You didn't say the title of your OP? Pholus Jun 2013 #29
Here's what the OP ProSense Jun 2013 #37
If you had said something NEW after the title Pholus Jun 2013 #40
You claimed the ACLU has said it's illegal muriel_volestrangler Jun 2013 #44
The week has just started. think4yourself Jun 2013 #4
What has legs is a bunch of ignorant outrage. Yeah, tell us all about it. Cha Jun 2013 #13
You two are like Siamese twins think4yourself Jun 2013 #18
Your stupid personal attacks are like the ignorant outrage.. full of holes. Cha Jun 2013 #19
Well, you're right about one thing Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #35
I saw what you did there... freshwest Jun 2013 #6
Absolute power will not be impeached. wundermaus Jun 2013 #8
because not everyone is hung up with Obama as a personality Enrique Jun 2013 #9
Wait, ProSense Jun 2013 #15
Its CRITICAL to separate the issues from the politics here. napoleon_in_rags Jun 2013 #10
Yeah, I'm with you on the They Live analogy, actually. Although I don't think it's ET. freshwest Jun 2013 #21
Problem is, its working fo Republicans. napoleon_in_rags Jun 2013 #33
It's probably not a "high crime" or "misdemeanor." nt Deep13 Jun 2013 #11
Sure, mercymechap Jun 2013 #14
Don't you expect that that is in the works? iemitsu Jun 2013 #16
Demanding it of whom? ohheckyeah Jun 2013 #17
I haven't seen anyone come up with a better solution to replace the NSA files databank Tx4obama Jun 2013 #20
Impeachment? No way! Let's use this for 2014! agentS Jun 2013 #22
Yeah, but ProSense Jun 2013 #23
He possibly did... agentS Jun 2013 #30
DU has been quite amusing recently Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #27
Damn. ProSense Jun 2013 #36
You're kidding me JustAnotherGen Jun 2013 #54
How about I just call on him to lead instead first - which we elected him to do The Straight Story Jun 2013 #31
"And personally, I think I would impeach most of congress and the president all at once" Cali_Democrat Jun 2013 #32
Nah, I think I will wait until he starts a war based on lies Rex Jun 2013 #34
Well, Obama let confessed torturers and war criminals off... delrem Jun 2013 #38
My goodness ProSense Jun 2013 #39
There is nothing that will stop the true believers from worshiping at Obama's feet...... bowens43 Jun 2013 #42
Because Congress authorized it. . B Calm Jun 2013 #43
Or why not call for the Patriot Act Shankapotomus Jun 2013 #46
Message auto-removed Name removed Jun 2013 #47
If the President does it, it's not illegal (nt) Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #48
Bait much? 99Forever Jun 2013 #49
Plus ... kill the IRS and shrink the government so we can drown it in a JoePhilly Jun 2013 #51
ProSense, as you see, people are attacking you for asking a legitimate question. Many were calling Liberal_Stalwart71 Jun 2013 #52
For many DUers, it's "posting privileges before principles"... SidDithers Jun 2013 #53
Ah, ProSense... sibelian Jun 2013 #55
I'm for impeaching any President mick063 Jun 2013 #56
Because his acts are legal. Laelth Jun 2013 #57
Spying on Americans is still illegal ProSense Jun 2013 #58
Kick...nt SidDithers Jun 2013 #59

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
5. It is that simple.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:18 AM
Jun 2013

If he broke the law, then he should be impeached.

What's the point of constantly fanning the anti-Obama flame if the goal isn't to burned down his Presidency.

Remember Bush, see the link.

No one hesistated to demand his impeachment because there was definitive proof he broke the law. He admitted to doing so.

If people are convinced that President Obama is doing the same thing, why the hesitation?

Isn't that hypocrisy?

The program can't be lawful and unlawful at the same time. If you believe he broke the law, having deliberately spied on Americans, then demand his impeachment. All I see are people accusing the President of doing something illegal, and then attacking people for saying that the program is legal and isn't targeting Americans.

 

LaydeeBug

(10,291 posts)
50. No, really, it's not since we have a law making this legal...pretending we don't have that
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 08:03 AM
Jun 2013

law is foolish.

humbled_opinion

(4,423 posts)
60. If He, If He
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:58 PM
Jun 2013

That is your defense? The right did not believe Bush broke the law and said the very same thing you are saying now, well if he broke the law then Pelosi should impeach him, show the proof or move on, and we see Pelosi chose to move on.... So this isn't helpful at all can you at least admit that the programs that are in place are too intrusive for govenment or will you allow President Sarah Palin the same unfettered access that the current admin has? You either defend the program or your campaign against it, you cannot have it both ways.

Deep13

(39,154 posts)
12. Right, it's not like the presidency is a political institution...
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:30 AM
Jun 2013

...oh wait, it totally is. I guess any solution will involve working with politics.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
3. Wow, same two options Bush gave us.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:10 AM
Jun 2013

So glad to hear I voted for someone so sympathetic to my concerns. Thanks for making that clear!

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
7. Oh please,
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:25 AM
Jun 2013

"Wow, same two options Bush gave us. So glad to hear I voted for someone so sympathetic to my concerns. Thanks for making that clear! "

...if you believe the President broke the law, clearly you've already determined he's not "sympathetic" to your concerns.

You seem to want to keep insisting he's spying on Americans even as he has already stated that the program doesn't target Americans.

I mean, do you really believe that if the President is lying about the program, the shit wouldn't hit the fan?

There are people who disagree about the scope and effectiveness of the program, but do not question that the actions were conducted lawfully.

I'm addressing those who are convinced that the President broke the law, and do not want to entertain the thought that they are wrong.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
24. Ja Wohl Herr Commissar,
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:56 AM
Jun 2013

You didn't need to clarify, it is already clear that you are simply saying that if I have a problem with this I have to back the most extreme sanction possible or just accept this.

What communication skills! I hate telemarketers but love opinion polls. Can't wait until the next call so I can share this!

By the way, you seem pretty tied in.... In the interest of having an open and transparent debate about the implications of these revelations when is the DOJ going to release their secret interpretations regarding Section 215 of the Patriot act?


ProSense

(116,464 posts)
25. No,
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:00 AM
Jun 2013

"You didn't need to clarify, it is already clear that you are simply saying that if I have a problem with this I have to back the most extreme sanction possible or just accept this."

...that isn't remotely what I'm saying. So clearly, you need clarification.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
26. This entire data mining crap is a problem.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:03 AM
Jun 2013

I want the president to understand that this is a problem.

But you're saying that if I think it's a problem, I must call it illegal ( but it isn't because our President SPECIFICALLY made sure it was legal in the name of post-election unity) and go all tea party on him.

Way to make a person feel good about rooting for team D.

I expect no less from you. Your standard response is "take it!"

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
29. You didn't say the title of your OP?
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:07 AM
Jun 2013

Interesting.

And un-nuanced.

Yes, I believe the president has created a mechanism that allows people to spy on Americans. I want him to stop.

But your contention is that the only mechanism available is impeachment!

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
37. Here's what the OP
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:34 AM
Jun 2013

title doesn't say: "But you're saying that if I think it's a problem, I must call it illegal"

And maybe you should read beyond the title to understand that.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
40. If you had said something NEW after the title
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:15 AM
Jun 2013

I might have referred to it. But you didn't.

So don't blame my reading when it's your inarticulate writing.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,157 posts)
44. You claimed the ACLU has said it's illegal
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 07:27 AM
Jun 2013

But they haven't; they have said it's a problem. Rather than linking to what they said about Bush, try linking to what they say about this case: http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/nsa-surveillance-order-explained-aclu

This affair really has shown you at your worst. When I see there's a thread started by you, I now expect to find misdirection, half-truths, red herrings, and flame bait from you.

think4yourself

(837 posts)
4. The week has just started.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:13 AM
Jun 2013

It's going to happen. This thing has legs and it's about much more than Verizon meta-data. Once Joe Sixpack learns what is going on, there will be lots of talk of impeachment.
Fasten your seatbelt, the justisfied outrage hasn't even started.

Summer Hathaway

(2,770 posts)
35. Well, you're right about one thing
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:13 AM
Jun 2013

"this week has just started".

And there will, no doubt, be new improved outrages to be - uh - outraged about in the next seven days.

"Once Joe Sixpack learns what is going on ..."

Joe Sixpack thinks 'metadata' is (a) a town in Mexico, (b) a popular spicy dish served in Indian restaurants, or (c) a hip-hop song lyric meaning something equivalent to "Big Daddy".





Enrique

(27,461 posts)
9. because not everyone is hung up with Obama as a personality
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:27 AM
Jun 2013

the ACLU for example will be going to court to stop the practice, not to punish Obama. They are not hung up on Obama as a personality, they care about the issue.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
15. Wait,
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:32 AM
Jun 2013

"the ACLU for example will be going to court to stop the practice, not to punish Obama. They are not hung up on Obama as a personality, they care about the issue."

...are you saying the ACLU is being hypocritical? I mean, you're saying that if Obama broke the law, it's not important that he be held accountable because you're not "hung up on Obama as a personality"?

ACLU Ad: The President Lied to the American People and Broke the Law
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022973979

ACLU: DOJ Tells Court It's Reconsidering Secrecy Surrounding Patriot Act's Spying Powers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022973455

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
10. Its CRITICAL to separate the issues from the politics here.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:28 AM
Jun 2013

I've been against this stuff for the last TEN YEARS that its been happening, or at least against it as a reasonable counter measure against a disorganized band of terrorists.*

Having it all come down on Obama isn't fair because it started under, but at the same time I'm not going to change my stance on it.

I think its necessary at this point for the Dems to get a libertarian / authoritarian rift just like the Repubs have between Rand Paul and Rove. Then this struggle becomes about the libertarian leaning sections of right and left against the authoritarian sections of right and left, without effecting the actual right left political dynamic in an unfair manner. It would take an outspoken Dem in congress to speak out for this, for legalization of pot, for the rest. If Dems don't have this leader they risk the disenfranchisement of much of their base.




*I'm still holding out to learn that its actually a "They Live" type situation, and the NSA and presidents have the secret sunglasses that lets them see the ET's amongst us, which they are battling justifying all these ridiculously extreme measures.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
21. Yeah, I'm with you on the They Live analogy, actually. Although I don't think it's ET.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:42 AM
Jun 2013

There are a variety of human traits that are functional in every person. Each person has good and evil, so to speak, but those terms have gotten out of hand throughout history.

People relate differently, some people are going to help, some are going to destroy. They give free rein to what they believe in or think works best for them and or everyone.

I'm not into the libertarian vs. authoritarian analogy. The kind of libertarian that has power now doesn't care if others they don't care about are crushed by others, anymore than a typical repuke. They go on about the ultimate in civil libertarianism and flat out ignore the war of the day that is pepertrated on millions who don't have their advantages, whether they see themselves as advantaged or not.

Because sometimes we can't see it. Then they go after those they see as more conformist with name calling when those people have simply banded together for their survival. So that's not going to work for me.

napoleon_in_rags

(3,991 posts)
33. Problem is, its working fo Republicans.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:12 AM
Jun 2013

Are they outraged with Bush or Rove for his support for the program? No, because they can turn to Rand, and see him opposing. Republicans have built a compelling dialectic, where any person tuning in will support one side (Rand) or the other (Rove), but either way, will find themselves investing their support in a Republican in they've seen. The EXACT same social phenomenon came into effect with Hillary and Obama in 2008, and it drove Obama's victory. Even Republicans became invested in the dialectic, by supporting Obama just to defeat the Clintons, and when election time came it propelled him to victory, because those Republicans grew to like him.

I came from the Libertarian scene many years ago the Dem scene. I understand the...drug... of it. Its this idea that if something bothers you, its YOUR responsibility to deal with it. No one else's. Its a cruel idea when its projected on to others (like disabled and poor) but its an empowering idea when its self directed. But the thing is, with that drug, that idea, it doesn't matter what your focus is. Want to help the needy? YOU do something about it. Want to work on global warming? YOU come up with some part of the solution. Its empowering in the sense you just assume you can get things done to change the world, you don't have to wait for the filibuster 2000 miles away to end.

(Its only in its self directed form that idea is worth a damn, BTW. The "I take personal responsibility exclusively by talking about how other people need to take personal responsibility" crowd of assholes is a drag on the Republicans, not an asset)

But all that aside, politically Obama has a huge quandary here. This thing, which he did not create, has been thrown up in his face. Yet there will be no support for his continuance of it from this base, because we can't handle the hypocrisy of standing up for what we spoke out against for years. So the only answer I can see that won't bring down all the good progressive stuff Obama stands for is for him to hop in bed with Rove on this issue, for our guy mister X to hop in bed with Rand, and for these two sides, libertarian vs whatever to have it out over this without effecting the right left dynamic. This battle will be fought on both sides during the primaries, and then the right/left battle in the general.

At least that's my thought on it. Its a crutch, but its what may need to be done.

As far as the issues, the They Live side of things, yeah it may be. No ET. But if its so, this has to be addressed in some way shape or form to the public - or the cognitive dissonance of the political status quo will drive us all to madness before that damages us (collectively) that much.

PEace!

iemitsu

(3,888 posts)
16. Don't you expect that that is in the works?
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:34 AM
Jun 2013

It is the best way for republicans to justify three more years of non-action on anything important.
Not that I don't think spying on Americans is a big deal, because I do, but Bush/Cheney were just as guilty of the practice as Obama and no one cared then.
With any luck, this might sponsor public debate over the proper roll of government.
A century ago, progressive reformers cleaned house in America. The spoils system was out and civil service was in. Officials were stripped of power, referendums and initiatives became part of the legislative process (at least in the west), trusts and monopolies were broken up, taxes were levied on the rich, and we moved forward as a nation, where all of us saw some benefit from the political and economic changes we had made, in the improvement of our living standards.
Its time to clean house again.
Too bad that the administration has made Democrats look so culpable.

Tx4obama

(36,974 posts)
20. I haven't seen anyone come up with a better solution to replace the NSA files databank
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:40 AM
Jun 2013

... if there's no back-up meta-database then in the future when there's a terrorist attack how will the FBI/CIA/etc track down who the bad guys have been talking to.

The tele-coms delete all of their info like after 30 to 60 days, something like that.

I know that after the Boston bombing everyone was wanting the government to trace all of the folks that those two brothers knew to see if more people were involved.

If there are 'no' records kept anywhere at all - and 'the terrorist' is not alive to be questioned, then any other folks involved will pretty much go undetected because they will basically be untraceable.



agentS

(1,325 posts)
22. Impeachment? No way! Let's use this for 2014!
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:48 AM
Jun 2013

This is a systemic problem, affecting Congress, the Admin, the Judiciary, and the media.
Impeaching O & B would put Boner in charge. Boner and Co. are fans of the policy.
What we SHOULD do, is push candidates in the primary to pledge to end the AUMF, PATRIOT ACT, FISA, and this odious program. If we make it a campaign issue THEN it will be an issue and we may very well end this (for awhile).

In the meantime, here's a petition. http://act.freepress.net/sign/internet_obama_verizon/?source=share

Dear President Obama:

Stop spying on millions of innocent people. The administration's surveillance of phone calls exceeds the government’s authority and threatens the basic rights of all Americans. Stop this spying program and all others like it immediately.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
23. Yeah, but
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:53 AM
Jun 2013
In the meantime, here's a petition. http://act.freepress.net/sign/internet_obama_verizon/?source=share

Dear President Obama:

Stop spying on millions of innocent people. The administration's surveillance of phone calls exceeds the government’s authority and threatens the basic rights of all Americans. Stop this spying program and all others like it immediately.


...clearly that petition means the President lied: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022965452

agentS

(1,325 posts)
30. He possibly did...
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:07 AM
Jun 2013

Either way, the NSA program needs to go and it's not going to disappear if we waste 6 months on impeachment (re; Clinton and Lewinsky), only to wind up with a guy whose party seems to support the program. It's not a winning plan.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
27. DU has been quite amusing recently
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:04 AM
Jun 2013

Yesterday I read a post about how the Obama administration wants to assassinate Elizabeth Warren and Glenn Greenwald. Hilarious shit.

I wouldn't be surprised if/when DUers join the teabaggers call for impeachment. It's just pure comedy gold at this point.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
31. How about I just call on him to lead instead first - which we elected him to do
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:10 AM
Jun 2013

He and others in government seem to have forgotten who gave them their jobs.

He has eroded trust in his base (republicans would hate him regardless) and carried on things we elected him to stop. Next time a dem candidate tells me he/she are going to do something I am guessing no one will believe it and instead of voting for a candidate we will be voting against another one.

And personally, I think I would impeach most of congress and the president all at once and start the hell over with people who won't sell us down the river to big business and the MIC.

Yeah, he is better than bush - but not on everything.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
34. Nah, I think I will wait until he starts a war based on lies
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:13 AM
Jun 2013

Why should he get in trouble, when the war mongering assholes before him didn't have a single thing happen to them over Iraq? I think you are being unfair.

delrem

(9,688 posts)
38. Well, Obama let confessed torturers and war criminals off...
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:04 AM
Jun 2013

...at the very beginning, saying, in the most insane rationale I've ever been privileged to witness, that he wants to look forward, not back. We're in the second term of that philosophy, both political parties including most of their bases are gung ho to continue escalating W's program, so who's there with the power to impeach?

I would've impeached the ass off W., but I wasn't in charge and now it's too late and we're reaping our just reward for our diligence.

And you, ProSense, are complacently happy, tho' a bit inconvenienced by a few squawkers at DU.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
39. My goodness
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:14 AM
Jun 2013

"And you, ProSense, are complacently happy, tho' a bit inconvenienced by a few squawkers at DU."

...I wasn't aware that so many people have intimate knowledge of my emotions, feelings and thoughts.

I like the "squawkers at DU" touch.



Response to ProSense (Original post)

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
51. Plus ... kill the IRS and shrink the government so we can drown it in a
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 09:11 AM
Jun 2013

bathtub.

I mean, if we're sure the government is listening to our every phone call and toilet flush, we better de-fund the entire government.

 

Liberal_Stalwart71

(20,450 posts)
52. ProSense, as you see, people are attacking you for asking a legitimate question. Many were calling
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 09:14 AM
Jun 2013

for Bush to be impeached for spying on Americans. If it is indeed the case that Obama did the same thing, it is not unreasonable for folks here to put their money where their mouth is and do the same.

Impeach the president if he spied.

I think we should be debating this and having an intelligent discussion about it here. I don't see any of that going on.

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
53. For many DUers, it's "posting privileges before principles"...
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 09:23 AM
Jun 2013

they can't come out and say what they really feel, because they'd get banned.

Posting privileges before principles.

Sid

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
55. Ah, ProSense...
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 09:24 AM
Jun 2013

....Why not instead call for the end to the offending practices? Hm?

You're clever, ProSense, but you are more concerned with the appearances of things than their natures.
 

mick063

(2,424 posts)
56. I'm for impeaching any President
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 09:32 AM
Jun 2013

That would select folks from the robber baron pool for his cabinet.

That hired an attorney general who would invent the term "Too big to prosecute"

That in the face of the expansion of poverty, would compromise social security.

The illegal spying is just added confirmation.

Worst financial investment in my lifetime was the Obama campaign.

Laelth

(32,017 posts)
57. Because his acts are legal.
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 09:40 AM
Jun 2013

I may not like what the NSA is doing, but that does not mean it's illegal. There are no "high crimes and misdemeanors" committed by the President here (not that I can see, anyway).

-Laelth

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
58. Spying on Americans is still illegal
Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:40 PM
Jun 2013

"Because his acts are legal."

Yes, his acts are legal, and here is what the President said:

Obama: PRISM Doesn’t Apply To U.S. Citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022965452

Remember, his acts are legal. Now, if someone wants to challenge his actions as unconstitutional because they do not believe the President's characterization of the program, that's fine. Still, wouldn't the challenge be premised on targeting Americans?

Who is right?



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