HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » Don't entertain this garb...

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:27 AM

Don't entertain this garbage.

The corporate-authoritarian propaganda in the MSM and right here on DU now is inviting you to "debate" your fundamental Constitutional rights. You are being asked to have very respectful and serious discussions about the pros and cons of the government's having the right to spy on every single one of us, and amass and store our private information and communication activities in databases that can be accessed at any time in the future. The rationalizations are varied but invariably outrageous: Corporations do it, so what's the difference? Doesn't the new world of terrorism demand new methods? Don't you realize some bad, bad Republicans are against this?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


How does authoritarianism happen? Bit by bit, step by step. And the outrageous propaganda we are seeing now is designed to shift our thinking.....to invite us to debate, in utter seriousness and with great respect for the opposing arguments, our Constitutional rights, as though they should be debatable at all. We do not entertain "serious" and "rational" debates about the pros and cons of killing and eating small children. We likewise should not respond to these oh-so-serious bids to debate whether we really need our fundamental Constitutional rights and protections.

I recommend that when we see utter garbage like this, we simply respond with the text of the Fourth Amendment, and probably the First, too, since that is equally under assault.

As Americans, we should be discussing how to stop this government abuse of power, not whether it might, possibly, be a good idea to stop it. We allow propagandists to frame and shift the debate, and we move steadily into an authoritarian new way of thinking in which what used to be our given, understood, fundamental Constitutional rights as American citizens become merely points of opinion, like whether the government should paint its flagpoles silver or grey.

332 replies, 63972 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 332 replies Author Time Post
Reply Don't entertain this garbage. (Original post)
woo me with science Jun 2013 OP
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #1
L0oniX Jun 2013 #220
Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #2
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #3
JI7 Jun 2013 #4
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #6
woo me with science Jun 2013 #9
Skittles Jun 2013 #11
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #13
Skittles Jun 2013 #24
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #43
GoneOffShore Jun 2013 #249
GoneFishin Jun 2013 #173
DirkGently Jun 2013 #255
mercymechap Jun 2013 #34
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #45
mercymechap Jun 2013 #63
Skittles Jun 2013 #148
Cheviteau Jun 2013 #197
TommyCelt Jun 2013 #208
mercymechap Jun 2013 #304
TommyCelt Jun 2013 #327
Skittles Jun 2013 #247
Skidmore Jun 2013 #264
SammyWinstonJack Jun 2013 #49
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #59
mercymechap Jun 2013 #69
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #85
mercymechap Jun 2013 #94
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #110
truedelphi Jun 2013 #295
truedelphi Jun 2013 #298
mercymechap Jun 2013 #305
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #308
mercymechap Jun 2013 #309
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #310
mercymechap Jun 2013 #319
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #323
snappyturtle Jun 2013 #128
mercymechap Jun 2013 #312
progressoid Jun 2013 #175
mercymechap Jun 2013 #306
progressoid Jun 2013 #324
Half-Century Man Jun 2013 #213
truedelphi Jun 2013 #300
Name removed Jun 2013 #154
sibelian Jun 2013 #171
delrem Jun 2013 #292
HiPointDem Jun 2013 #198
mercymechap Jun 2013 #313
HiPointDem Jun 2013 #315
mercymechap Jun 2013 #317
TommyCelt Jun 2013 #210
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #302
mercymechap Jun 2013 #314
TommyCelt Jun 2013 #326
woo me with science Jun 2013 #331
GoneOffShore Jun 2013 #250
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #72
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #99
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #108
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #121
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #129
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #134
mercymechap Jun 2013 #321
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #325
TommyCelt Jun 2013 #212
mercymechap Jun 2013 #316
cui bono Jun 2013 #131
Warren DeMontague Jun 2013 #141
freedom fighter jh Jun 2013 #156
mercymechap Jun 2013 #322
Dorian Gray Jun 2013 #157
Bluenorthwest Jun 2013 #176
truedelphi Jun 2013 #297
reusrename Jun 2013 #218
Horse with no Name Jun 2013 #258
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #301
JI7 Jun 2013 #12
Control-Z Jun 2013 #20
whatchamacallit Jun 2013 #19
LineLineLineLineLineReply ?
one_voice Jun 2013 #185
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #35
ReRe Jun 2013 #145
emulatorloo Jun 2013 #190
ReRe Jun 2013 #253
emulatorloo Jun 2013 #288
ReRe Jun 2013 #290
FSogol Jun 2013 #158
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #261
Fumesucker Jun 2013 #8
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #16
napoleon_in_rags Jun 2013 #25
summer-hazz Jun 2013 #52
laundry_queen Jun 2013 #203
sibelian Jun 2013 #179
2naSalit Jun 2013 #271
mercymechap Jun 2013 #27
me b zola Jun 2013 #66
cantbeserious Jun 2013 #151
Laelth Jun 2013 #165
HiPointDem Jun 2013 #196
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #15
mn9driver Jun 2013 #30
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #38
mn9driver Jun 2013 #62
WinkyDink Jun 2013 #183
NealK Jun 2013 #242
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #221
EmeraldCityGrl Jun 2013 #233
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #57
mn9driver Jun 2013 #65
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #81
mn9driver Jun 2013 #127
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #132
marions ghost Jun 2013 #184
sheshe2 Jun 2013 #254
mn9driver Jun 2013 #205
cui bono Jun 2013 #133
tex-wyo-dem Jun 2013 #283
delrem Jun 2013 #293
Marr Jun 2013 #36
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #107
Matariki Jun 2013 #299
SammyWinstonJack Jun 2013 #53
joshcryer Jun 2013 #84
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #98
joshcryer Jun 2013 #232
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #234
delrem Jun 2013 #294
Skidmore Jun 2013 #160
LondonReign2 Jun 2013 #192
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #199
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #46
summer-hazz Jun 2013 #71
cui bono Jun 2013 #135
dgibby Jun 2013 #265
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #266
dgibby Jun 2013 #272
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #275
dgibby Jun 2013 #278
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #279
dgibby Jun 2013 #281
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #282
Th1onein Jun 2013 #56
woo me with science Jun 2013 #201
Demo_Chris Jun 2013 #93
woo me with science Jun 2013 #96
Demo_Chris Jun 2013 #100
caseymoz Jun 2013 #191
HiPointDem Jun 2013 #195
frylock Jun 2013 #215
GoneOffShore Jun 2013 #248
LineReply !
bvar22 Jun 2013 #5
LittleBlue Jun 2013 #7
KittyWampus Jun 2013 #14
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #17
truedelphi Jun 2013 #296
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #18
ProSense Jun 2013 #33
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #42
ProSense Jun 2013 #74
joshcryer Jun 2013 #87
joshcryer Jun 2013 #90
rhett o rick Jun 2013 #40
ProSense Jun 2013 #48
cui bono Jun 2013 #137
sibelian Jun 2013 #172
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #51
ProSense Jun 2013 #73
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #79
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #104
ProSense Jun 2013 #130
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #136
ProSense Jun 2013 #138
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #142
LiberalLovinLug Jun 2013 #245
Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #103
Summer Hathaway Jun 2013 #113
cui bono Jun 2013 #139
Dorian Gray Jun 2013 #159
sibelian Jun 2013 #170
Doctor_J Jun 2013 #267
840high Jun 2013 #238
ProSense Jun 2013 #10
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #21
usGovOwesUs3Trillion Jun 2013 #28
Ms. Toad Jun 2013 #44
pa28 Jun 2013 #22
delrem Jun 2013 #23
markiv Jun 2013 #26
Amonester Jun 2013 #29
markiv Jun 2013 #32
Amonester Jun 2013 #41
markiv Jun 2013 #47
Amonester Jun 2013 #60
markiv Jun 2013 #64
burnodo Jun 2013 #149
HiPointDem Jun 2013 #200
bobduca Jun 2013 #204
Fumesucker Jun 2013 #207
sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #55
JoeyT Jun 2013 #61
Amonester Jun 2013 #77
JoeyT Jun 2013 #91
Amonester Jun 2013 #95
Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #75
Amonester Jun 2013 #78
Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #83
Amonester Jun 2013 #88
brett_jv Jun 2013 #239
brett_jv Jun 2013 #240
marions ghost Jun 2013 #330
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #222
BlueCheese Jun 2013 #86
Abq_Sarah Jun 2013 #123
cui bono Jun 2013 #146
markiv Jun 2013 #31
MuseRider Jun 2013 #37
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #39
AnotherMcIntosh Jun 2013 #58
BrotherIvan Jun 2013 #82
whatchamacallit Jun 2013 #124
ReRe Jun 2013 #140
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #143
hootinholler Jun 2013 #162
Fix The Stupid Jun 2013 #166
sibelian Jun 2013 #180
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #182
morningfog Jun 2013 #209
ctsnowman Jun 2013 #226
Horse with no Name Jun 2013 #259
Fuddnik Jun 2013 #50
Autumn Jun 2013 #54
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #70
Autumn Jun 2013 #169
KoKo Jun 2013 #241
Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #67
pnwmom Jun 2013 #68
Fire Walk With Me Jun 2013 #76
TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #117
LineLineLineReply *
pnwmom Jun 2013 #144
woo me with science Jun 2013 #217
sibelian Jun 2013 #181
woo me with science Jun 2013 #256
Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #236
arthritisR_US Jun 2013 #80
nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #223
arthritisR_US Jun 2013 #224
Kablooie Jun 2013 #89
ProSense Jun 2013 #92
Le Taz Hot Jun 2013 #97
southerncrone Jun 2013 #101
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #102
woo me with science Jun 2013 #105
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #112
ProSense Jun 2013 #106
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #111
ProSense Jun 2013 #114
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #116
ProSense Jun 2013 #118
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #119
ProSense Jun 2013 #122
JDPriestly Jun 2013 #125
cui bono Jun 2013 #147
DissidentVoice Jun 2013 #246
DisgustipatedinCA Jun 2013 #188
ucrdem Jun 2013 #186
G_j Jun 2013 #109
nashville_brook Jun 2013 #270
SleeplessinSoCal Jun 2013 #115
Number23 Jun 2013 #120
still_one Jun 2013 #126
ReRe Jun 2013 #150
greiner3 Jun 2013 #152
marmar Jun 2013 #153
mia Jun 2013 #155
savebigbird Jun 2013 #161
Historic NY Jun 2013 #167
Logical Jun 2013 #168
savebigbird Jun 2013 #252
99Forever Jun 2013 #163
Laelth Jun 2013 #164
BrainDrain Jun 2013 #174
kentuck Jun 2013 #177
WillyT Jun 2013 #178
ucrdem Jun 2013 #187
DirkGently Jun 2013 #189
stupidicus Jun 2013 #193
HiPointDem Jun 2013 #194
toby jo Jun 2013 #202
agent46 Jun 2013 #206
LineReply .
libodem Jun 2013 #211
Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #214
Angelonthesidelines Jun 2013 #216
L0oniX Jun 2013 #219
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #225
L0oniX Jun 2013 #228
backscatter712 Jun 2013 #229
msanthrope Jun 2013 #263
Schema Thing Jun 2013 #285
ctsnowman Jun 2013 #227
MissDeeds Jun 2013 #230
cheapdate Jun 2013 #231
TakeALeftTurn Jun 2013 #235
840high Jun 2013 #237
temmer Jun 2013 #243
AndyA Jun 2013 #244
yodermon Jun 2013 #251
blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #257
nineteen50 Jun 2013 #260
forestpath Jun 2013 #262
Doctor_J Jun 2013 #268
woo me with science Jun 2013 #287
b.durruti Jun 2013 #269
woo me with science Jun 2013 #276
boilerbabe Jun 2013 #273
snot Jun 2013 #274
Uncle Joe Jun 2013 #277
jsr Jun 2013 #280
TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #284
Aerows Jun 2013 #286
Catherina Jun 2013 #289
limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #291
KoKo Jun 2013 #303
Tx4obama Jun 2013 #307
woo me with science Jun 2013 #311
Tx4obama Jun 2013 #318
woo me with science Jun 2013 #320
Catherina Jun 2013 #328
woo me with science Jun 2013 #329
Catherina Jul 2013 #332

Response to woo me with science (Original post)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:29 AM

1. You know, some folks are that ignorant

Of their rights...some are propaganda masters.

I'm not sure we can tell the difference any longer.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #1)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:54 PM

220. Known terrorists with US phone books starts calling random or not so random numbers ...what happens?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to woo me with science (Original post)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:30 AM

2. Very, very, well said.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to woo me with science (Original post)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:33 AM

3. Pathetic. You use the word "spy" but fail utterly to define exactly what has happened and what is

objectionable.

Frankly a good amount of DU'ers seem to be not quite as well-informed as they pretend to be, extremely quick to jump on any bandwagon if it agrees with their preconceived bias & extremely prone to ratfucking.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KittyWampus (Reply #3)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:34 AM

4. many have an agenda

just like the wingnuts i'm seeing on other sites spewing the same shit against Obama i see on here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JI7 (Reply #4)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:35 AM

6. Why is the Left so prone to ratfucking?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KittyWampus (Reply #6)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:36 AM

9. ...

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to woo me with science (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:38 AM

11. LOL

you really think repeating it will make them understand? SCHEDULING WOO ME FOR ASS KICKING!!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Skittles (Reply #11)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:40 AM

13. And yet the OP is basically meaningless. It's telling how some love throwing the word "spy" around

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KittyWampus (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:48 AM

24. your reaction is WAY more telling

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KittyWampus (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:05 AM

43. *PLONK*

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to backscatter712 (Reply #43)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:42 PM

249. You're missing the point -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022970768#post43

Here's the first bit of something posted on Reddit the other day:

I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:

1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.


And did you watch "Lives of Others"?

We are turning into East Germany under the STASI.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KittyWampus (Reply #13)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 08:43 AM

173. Very telling response. Hmm.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to GoneFishin (Reply #173)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 07:01 PM

255. No one loves claiming "ratfucking" more than


practitioners of the same.

Projection, basically.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to woo me with science (Reply #9)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:59 AM

34. So the hell with any chance

of catching any terrorist groups that may be communicating and plotting against us because we don't want our phone conversations (which mine happen to be utterly boring) being maintained in case our phone number happens to crop up in some terrorist's list of accessed numbers?

Times have changed. We used to be able to board planes without having to be scanned for possible bomb materials in our possession, we are being "photographed" in the street, in stores, on highways, etc., because of the many crimes being committed and the possibility of catching the criminals by accessing such records.

The way i understand the use of this data is not to listen to every conversation, but rather to have it in the case some apprehended terrorist's phone happens to have accessed your number. Seems pretty damn smart to me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:06 AM

45. *PLONK*

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to backscatter712 (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:19 AM

63. Yeah, that's fine with me -

and I welcome you to my list of "inane alarmists". Refuse to deal with facts, instead feed your paranoia.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to backscatter712 (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:47 AM

148. IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOUR PHONE CONVERSATIONS ARE BORING!!!!!

CAN'T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, BACKSCATTER???

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Skittles (Reply #148)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 10:13 AM

197. BS

I'd be just as outraged as you if I thought our phone conversations were being recorded. They're not. But go ahead and fan the flames of ignorance.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cheviteau (Reply #197)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 11:28 AM

208. Hmmm...

I'd be just as outraged as you if I thought our phone conversations were being recorded. They're not.

What assures your knowledge this isn't happening? Because members of our government say so? You're far more trusting than I am.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TommyCelt (Reply #208)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 09:54 PM

304. And what prompts you think that

they are recording your conversations? Paranoia?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #304)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:12 AM

327. Because they can...

Because historically those who have the power to do such things exploit it, rather than ignore it.

As I noted in another response to you, I believe our basic disagreement here is trust. Will you acknowledge that the government (no matter if it's flying a red or blue banner) has the technical (not legal) ability to peruse the content of this data being collected?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Cheviteau (Reply #197)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:35 PM

247. you know that was satire, right?

in reference to other DUers who have said such nonsense - that's why it was in over-the-top caps

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to backscatter712 (Reply #45)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 08:55 PM

264. Wow, that's mature.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:10 AM

49. ...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:17 AM

59. Until it happense to be used against you

and you can't fight it because you didn't even know the information was being gathered, or that the people you were calling, or receiving calls from might (or might not) have been engaged in terrorism. Or were repeatedly "butt dialed" by - just had three of those calls the other day. Or might have been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

No one in Gitmo like that. Or the innocent people held for years on death row - or the really "lucky ones who were executed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, and perhaps take a plea bargain because they were innocent - and of course being innocent they had nothing to hide - and no jury would ever convict them. Except it did. And those weren't even the result of systematically gathered evidence.

So no, not smart. It is a false security if it is gained at the cost of our freedoms.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #59)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:28 AM

69. Boy, I thought the only paranoid people

were those that watched Glenn Beck.

If you were butt dialed by a terrorist, I'm sure the phone conversation won't provide your voice talking with the terrorist about bombs, meeting places, groups being targeted etc., things that would have to be there to incriminate you.

If you are so paranoid as to think that a butt dial would land you in prison, there really is no hope for you, might as well built yourself a bunker and go underground - cause the big bad boogie government surely has your name on a list of people to get and they are coming for you pretty soon!

Now imagine, terrorist groups talking freely over the telephones, plotting right here in the US to attack the mall where you and your family will be shopping, or the metro that your husband/wife will be riding to go to work or the school where your children are attending, and nobody knowing about it because you were so concerned about your butt dial being mistaken for terrorist participation.

Geeez!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #69)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:49 AM

85. Yes - fixate on the details

and miss the big point.

I received three calls from someone I don't know which were obviously butt dials. Same person. Each lasted several minutes. I could hear muffled talking in the background, and odd sounds. Obviously no one intended to call me.

The data for those calls would connect me to whoever called. It was not an isolated call - which would look like an accident. There were three calls. The calls were longer than a typical wrong number. If that person is identified as a person of interest - those three calls might make me, as well.

I am not specifically concerned about a butt dial being mistaken for terrorist participation - I am concerned about innocent patterns (like repeated butt dialing) trapping innocent people in a criminal or terrorist investigation they cannot extricate themselves from either because they can't prove a negative - or don't have the money to prove a negative.

And yes, our right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure, and our freedom of association is that important. If we forfeit that for the illusion of safety we will be neither safe nor free.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #85)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:05 AM

94. The chances of the FBI/CIA

being able to locate terrorist groups is way far more plausible with the data being collected than the scenario you mention, being trapped in a situation where you appear to be guilty when you are truly innocent. Sure, no one can deny that such situations do happen, and they are unfortunate, but they are not as common as the fact that we know there are many terrorist groups living right here in the US who wish to do Americans harm, and who are plotting on a daily basis on how to do it.

Our freedom has been diminished by the mere fact of the time we are now living in. Gone are the days when we didn't have to worry about people carrying bombs into planes, plotting to do mass killings at schools, or at marathons, or driving trucks with bombs, exploding them in front of government buildings. If one such attack can be curtailed, it is worth giving up that bit of freedom.

This gathering of information has been going on for years, and to date, it has not affected me one bit. Maybe I'm not like right-wing conservatives who see the government as the Big Bad wolf trying to eat them. Your right to be free and not be scanned at an airport does not supersede my right to make sure that no one boards the flight with a bomb on their person.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #94)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:34 AM

110. I'm sure you felt the government was just as benevolent

and trustworthy when Bush was in office, and you will be quite comfortable if Jeb Bush (or Glenn Beck, or whatever tea party nut job) is elected and continues it in 2016.

I really don't understand the amnesia around this place.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #110)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:35 AM

295. We didn't agree about the ACA, but we certainly agree about

PRISM. I found you a worthy contender of debate when we weren't agreeing, and am relieved we are on the same side on this issue.

For me, part of my paranoia is that our entire government seems to be owned by corporations. The only way we will return to more democratic roots is if we can organize. But as long as PRISM exists, I know it is to be used by the Corporations to help them beat back the organizers on the Pipeline issue, on the Monsanto issue, and dozens of other issues as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #110)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:51 AM

298. We didn't agree about the ACA but we seem to be in agreement over

PRISM. I found you a worthy contender of debate when we weren't agreeing, and am relieved we are on the same side on this issue.

For me, part of my paranoia is that our entire government seems to be owned by corporations. The only way we will return to more democratic roots is if we can organize. But as long as PRISM exists, I know it is to be used by the Corporations to help them beat back the organizers on the Pipeline issue, on the Monsanto issue, and dozens of other issues as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #110)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 10:04 PM

305. If Jeb Bush or even Glenn Beck (Horrors) were to

get elected in 2016, just because some are making a fuss over it today, doesn't mean that they couldn't decide to start it. And they would have the support of most Republicans. Based on the information that has been given, I don't see anything wrong with it. They have to get a court order in order to be able to look at the content of phone conversations, and other data, such as names, etc., just like they do in criminal cases. I don't see the big whoop t doo over it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #305)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 10:18 PM

308. You are very naive.

I've lived through this before (COINTELPRO), and I also know how much they can tell from just data the court ordered (assuming that is all they actually gathered). And I know how unreliable our justice system is when there is appellate review and both sides are represented by zealous advocates - and in this case only one side is represented and there is no appellate review.

I am not happy about being spied on by my government. And, I don't for a minute believe that you (or any of the others treating this as insignificant) won't be pulling a Sean Hannity the next time an R is in the office.

My position is consistent - it is offensive and unconstitutional, regardless of who is in office.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #308)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 10:50 PM

309. I'm not naive, I'm just not as

paranoid about the government as some of you are.

You use a computer and are on a Political Forum, if you think that your comments and the personal information you provided to get on the forum, not to mention the IP on your computer aren't being stored somewhere, you are the one that is naive. And even if you used a fake name and fake e-mail, it can all be traced back to you.

Facebook, Myspace, Twitter, they all store their data. You buy stuff from Amazon.com, they know which kinds of books you like and will offer books similar to what you've bought. I'm sure other companies do the same.

And, you are not really being spied on by the government. All they have are phone numbers and the phone numbers that your phone number has called and has received calls from. They can only access the contents with a warrant and they have to have justifiable reason to do that. Yes, there's been cases were people have been abused - as long as we have humans involved there will always be such incidents, but they are the exception, not the rule.

And, with all the terrorist inter-action going on in our own country, I just can't understand why people value the privacy of their phone number (which in most cases has been given out to numerous people) over the possibility that such information could prevent another 9/11.

http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-conservative/2013/01/reality-check-there-are-more-terrorist-groups-active-in-the-us-than-any-other-country-in-the-world-2564108.html

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #309)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:10 PM

310. I am completely aware of all of that.

I make my choices about what to reveal. Each of the online entities I interact with has a privacy policy. I read every single one, and make very deliberate decisions about whether the bargain benefits me or not. For as heavily involved as I am online, my choices have been pretty conservative until recently - and they are still more conservative than average. Other people make different choices - some reveal more, some a lot less. That is the whole point - choice.

The government gave us no choice, didn't provide a privacy policy so we could know what they were gathering, who they would be sharing that data with, or how they might use it - AND - they have the power to use it to deprive us of our liberty and our rights, with no possibility of legal review because of the inherent secrecy. Ask my mother's friend who was disappeared in the middle of the night to an internment camp. Ask the people blacklisted as a result of the HUAC. Ask the Nobel Peace Prize winning AFSC who was infiltrated and spied on as part of COINTELPRO (look for the documents the FBI FOIA requests produced) as a violent subversive group. The outrage over that program was part of what turned the corner during the VietNam War - and far too many people are just sitting her, smiling, and saying - "no biggie" I trust Obama.

Any law for which there is no legal remedy for the infringement of our rights (because it is a secret program) and which requires that we trust the person currently in office to kindly not infringe them is a very dangerous law.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #310)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:51 PM

319. You may think that you are making choices

about what you want to reveal, but you really have no clue as to what companies do with the information that you reveal to them. You are certainly more invested into the privacy policy than most of us, I seriously doubt that the majority of people read every single word and understand most of what they are reading when they join political forums, Facebook, etc. While it is good to have "choices" there are instances where our personal choices are irrelevant if we want the government to protect us from the many factions that want to do harm to us.

What amazes me the most is that this has been going on for years, and now just because someone revealed that the Obama administration was requesting information from Verizon, everyone is up in arms over it. Where was the outrage when Bush was doing it? Apparently the majority didn't feel threatened or surely there would have been letters to Congress asking them to put an immediate stop to it. So, if it has been going on for years and nobody has had an "interesting" story to tell based on their phone number being captured, then I guess it's not worth losing too much sleep over it.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #319)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:20 AM

323. Actually -

since I am an attorney, part of my field is internet law & privacy, and I actually write some of those agreements, I think I have a pretty good idea of what they say. And I also review questions they have about whether what they want to do falls within the limits of the agreement. But for the most part, since screw-ups are very expensive and my job during the day is to protect my client, the short version of most agreements I write is, "You have no privacy, get over it." And you are right that many people don't read them - that is also their choice. What is not OK is for us to be deprived of the ability to make that choice - or of the right for redress in court. When my clients screw up, you can haul them into court. When the ACLU sued on behalf of people whose data we now know was being captured, the Supreme Court said they had no standing to sue because it was pure speculation that their data was being captured, and they hold all of the data and cannot be compelled to produce it or even acknowledge it exists (private companies can be).

There are far fewer people who write their congresspeople about anything than there should be, but I'm also on the governing body of a faith based lobby group - which lobbied against the Patriot Act when it was first introduced - and pretty much continuously since then: http://fcnl.org/search/?q=patriot%20act (and that narrows your choice of who I am to ~200 people - or perhaps 100 . . . as long as I'm not using a misleading title and combining the first paragraph it probably narrows the field to no more than a dozen, and perhaps only one. I haven't actually checked).

But - back to the topic - there are people who care deeply about these issues who do lobby (and have since 9/11), do write their congresspeople, who do develop personal relationships with them to try to restore governmental respect for privacy and civil liberties.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #94)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:27 AM

128. Glad you like the new flavor of the day Kool-Aid because it's obvious

you've drunk a lot of it!

Take a very deep breath and slowly let it out. NOW...if you were a terrorist ripe to do damage to our country and you're making plans....why in the hell would you use a traceable phone? amen.

The man behind the curtain has been revealed....it's all scam propaganda. These governmental secret societies had enough info to seriously thwart 911 and they didn't....nor have they stopped anything. DiFi has come out and said they will keep their successes to themselves! LOL We all know that one way to deter bad behavior is to make public examples out of the perpetrators but they won't....because ?????? Think about it!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to snappyturtle (Reply #128)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:19 PM

312. So you think that pre-paid phones can't be traced?

why in the hell would you use a traceable phone

Apparently you are the one that has been drinking the KoolAid.

Any cell phone can be traced. They may not be able to get your name if you paid cash, but the calls made can be traced and they can at least know the location from where the calls were placed.

Good luck hiding from the FBI once they know the approximate location of your calls.



Why make an untraceable call? There are always situations that call for anonymity. A call to Child Protective Services has always been one of the top reasons. Here is a way to guarantee no trace back from NORMAL sources. This DOES exclude NSA, FBI, CIA and other departments that have access to Eschelon.

Read more: How to Make a Virtually Untraceable Phone Call | eHow http://www.ehow.com/how_4863492_virtually-untraceable-phone-call.html#ixzz2W9n3H0jV

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #94)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 08:52 AM

175. Well, if it doesn't affect you then it must be fine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to progressoid (Reply #175)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 10:06 PM

306. Oh, but because your panties are all

in a wad over it, I guess we must all agree with you!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #306)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:22 AM

324. The point...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #94)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:00 PM

213. We have had DHS for over ten years...

And we have had no evidence of it being effective. No, it is effective, just not as it was sold to us.
Adding another layer to the 700+ layers of our bureaucracy is not making it MORE efficient.
Making it oversight resistant is just stupid.

I get that at that time we decided we needed a big bad guard dog; well now its gotten fat, it shits on the carpet, knocks company down, steals from the table, and keeps humping our leg. Knock it into submission or put it down, it is fucking up our house.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Half-Century Man (Reply #213)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:55 AM

300. Nice one!

That photo that sat on DU's front page for the last 48 hours, of some big centralized NSA headquarters made me want to puke. We are supposedly in austerity mode - to such an extent that people are dying when the bridges they are driving on collapse underneath them.

But all this nonsense of Spying on this and Spying on that. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that this is simply yet another way for the military industrial governmental complex to pad its pockets, while making us feel scared.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #69)


Response to mercymechap (Reply #69)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 08:38 AM

171. That's a chimera.


It has nothing to do with terrorism, they are not taking the data to get terrorists they are taking the data to GET THE DATA.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sibelian (Reply #171)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 11:07 PM

292. correct.

Having all the data on all personal affairs gives total control.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #69)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 10:19 AM

198. stupid post

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #198)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:23 PM

313. Then debate it,

just saying it is a stupid post makes your post even more stupid.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #313)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:26 PM

315. debating it would only elevate it to an importance above its stupidity.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #315)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:36 PM

317. Which is your way of

saying, I don't really know how to debate it but I want to participate and offer my ignorant 2 cents!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #69)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 11:33 AM

210. I don't have anything to hide...

...but I don't have anything I feel like showing you, either.

As an American citizen, I don't need to justify that position. Anyone in "authority" who wants to look at my personal crap has to justify their position. With a warrant, as prescribed by the Consititution.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TommyCelt (Reply #210)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 02:23 PM

302. The question is what do THEY have to hide.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TommyCelt (Reply #210)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:25 PM

314. And that is what they have

to do. Geez, no wonder those that are freaking out over it don't really know how it works.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #314)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 08:04 AM

326. No...not nearly enough oversight to make sure that's what the "have" to do

Bottom line. You trust the fox in the henhouse; I don't.

Good luck.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to TommyCelt (Reply #326)

Sun Jun 16, 2013, 03:28 PM

331. They have no right to surveil en masse in the first place.

They have no right to collect and store this information in the first place.

Arguments about oversight to access the information collected are a manipulation to get us to accept the collection as a given in the first place.

They have no right to conduct mass surveillance in the first place.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #69)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:47 PM

250. You obviously have forgotten that slippery slopes get slipperier and steeper

with every incremental loss of freedom.

Would you spy on your neighbors? Would you inform on your family? People in East Germany did because of slippery slopes. It's for the good of the state.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #59)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 01:33 AM

72. Do you have any solid info

on anyone who has been arrested because "the people they were calling, or receiving calls from might (or might not) have been engaged in terrorism"?

Know anyone who's been detained because they were 'butt-dialed' by the wrong person?

The ridiculous non-sequitar transition into people on death row having been in the wrong place at the wrong time - seriously? When was the last time someone ended up on death row as a result of the gov't looking at their phone records in a database?

I've been reading on DU for the last 48-hours all kinds of speculation, conspiracy theories, and downright lunacy about the info the gov't is currently gathering and storing, and 'where it will all lead'.

And yet, despite the fact that this data-mining has been going on for years, I've not seen one example of someone charged with so much as a parking ticket as a result of megadata collection.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #72)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:19 AM

99. It is not a non-sequitor

to point out the very real circumstances in which our system of justice has failed, based on data and conclusions drawn from that data which were false. If the system can fail when we put people on death row, or in Gitmo, we should all of a sudden trust it to be perfectly accurate when massive quantities of data are being gathered and crunched to determine patterns (or supposed patterns) of interactions in connection with terrorism?

As for concrete evidence that something bad has happened - well, hmm..., that would kind of require information about what data has been gathered, and how it has been used, facts which have are not available to the public.

If it leads nowhere but to a loss of our freedom to associate with whomever we please without fear of being labeled a terrorist, that loss is too much.

FWIW, My father has an FBI file on him, I likely have one on me - as I have followed pretty closely in his footsteps in the activities which caused the FBI to spy on US citizens, including being on the governing body which was the subject of massive data collection from ~1940 - 1975. Theoetically that organization (32 more links at that site - feel free to browse), which received a Nobel Peace Prize posed such a threat of violence to the US that the FBI invested 30 years infiltrating and spying on it - information we only had access to after the fact as the result of FOIA requests - which cannot be used to produce the currently classified material. So being spied on by the FBI is personal to me.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #99)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:31 AM

108. Our system of justice

fails all the time - sad, but true - as the result of over-zealous prosecutors (for political reasons or otherwise), lazy defense attorneys, dumb-as-a-post jurors, bored judges, etc.

Which has nothing to do with metadata collection.

It is not enough to say, "Yeah, but this COULD happen." Until it happens, it is pure speculation without any basis in fact or reality.

"If it leads nowhere but to a loss of our freedom to associate with whomever we please without fear of being labeled a terrorist, that loss is too much."

Exactly when did you lose your freedom to associate with whomever you please? Was it yesterday when you read something on DU? Was it when this kind of data-mining went into effect, which was years ago?


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #108)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 02:55 AM

121. You could try reading the post again.

Not to mention the second half of the sentence you quoted. It happened in the early 70s (at least my personal piece of the story). Because I exercised my freedom to associate with others on the governing body of the American Friends Service Committee, and otherwise in opposition to war (generally) and the Vietnam war (specifically), I was spied on and labeled a violent subversive.

In part because of that organization's efforts in response to that spying, the FBI domestic surveillance program was exposed and it was prohibited from continuing a domestic surveillance program until 2002, when it was resurrected by Ashcroft and - not surprisingly - the AFSC was again quickly targeted as a violent subversive organization (spying on the AFSC when it met at the Friends Meeting I belong to was oh-so-effective in preventing 911).

Have a little history lesson: http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file893_29902.pdf I suspect if the current situation doesn't trouble you that you are too young to remember how very familiar this pattern is.

And - while I expected Bush and his ilk to have no respect for the constitution, I expected more from the constitutional scholar we elected president.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #121)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:29 AM

129. ...

I'm still waiting for the part where metadata gathering comes in.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #129)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:51 AM

134. Because the impact of collecting one kind of data about who you are associating with

is so much different from other data about who you are associating with.



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #99)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:00 AM

321. I can understand why you

would feel distrust, based on your past experience, but surely you also realize that our country has evolved quite a bit from that time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #321)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:24 AM

325. Really?

In 2005 (although I may be off by a year in either direction), after having been one of the targets of the FBI's COINTELPRO ending in the 70s, there were FBI agents again infiltrating and spying on the local AFSC office.

Targeted assassinations, drone attacks, AbuGraib, Gitmo, Voter ID laws (just to name a few). You really think we've evolved that much?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #72)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 11:37 AM

212. So...

because it's been going on for years, and you've not been privvy to abuse of the information being mined, we're all good, hmm?

I feel better already.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #72)

Thu Jun 13, 2013, 11:32 PM

316. Exactly!

The database allowed the FBI to find the Boston bomber's friend in Florida. They were able to find him because his phone number was found on Tamerian Tsarnaev's cell phone. The FBI was able to determine that there wasn't a terrorist group. Wouldn't these same people that are complaining been really upset if the Boston bombers had been part of a terrorist group that would have retaliated for the killing of Tamerian, and the FBI hadn't been able to determine that? What's so sacred about a phone number?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 03:44 AM

131. You deserve neither liberty nor security. n/t

Last edited Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:40 AM - Edit history (1)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 04:11 AM

141. Sort of the way the PATRIOT Act has been used against "dangerous terrorists", right?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 06:47 AM

156. To have it in case a terrorist's phone happens to have access your number.

Or in case someone in government wants to shut you up for any reason at all.

Suspicious of government, am I? Our system is built on protecting citizens from government.

Your records may be boring. Mine are private, the way going to the bathroom is private: I'm not doing anything in there that I need to be ashamed of, but I'd be embarrassed as hell if anyone could see me doing it. Some folks may have done things that are truly wrong but unrelated. Think of Eliot Spitzer, trying to rein in the banks from their unscrupulous practices, and brought down for seeing prostitutes. When a state's chief executive, charged with enforcing the law, violates the law, yes, that is a problem. But that was not relevant to Spitzer's efforts to protect the people from predatory banking practices. Had he succeeded, many would be better off.

These records are a club that government can use to whack any one of us over the head, especially if we get uppity and try to question them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to freedom fighter jh (Reply #156)

Fri Jun 14, 2013, 12:18 AM

322. Well, collecting just the numbers of

terrorists and the people they contact would present a bit of a trick, wouldn't it. I doubt that your number will ever even be looked at, but if you feel safer knowing that no one has it, then all I can say is that your paranoia is beyond help.

When it comes to phone conversations, you can hardly compare that to bathroom sessions, especially when the safety of all Americans is involved. If pooping in front of people would keep many innocent people from being killed, you would still opt for your privacy? If it was your own family? Interesting.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 06:51 AM

157. Just because

it's "smart" doesn't mean it's not a total violation of our rights.

And just because you don't mind your rights being violated doesn't mean that the rest of our society doesn't mind.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 08:53 AM

176. You mean the way they caught the Boston Bombers? After the fact? After warnings from other

nations, lots of 'red flags' and interviewing the elder one face to face they let them go about their business. So your theory is that folks with that level of competence can be trusted with and can make sense of this data, in spite of the Boston, Ft Hood, Underwear Bomber etc? What evidence do you have to support that assertion?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #176)

Wed Jun 12, 2013, 03:48 AM

297. And how about this evidence - officials from at least THREE SEPARATE NATIONS

Tried to warn us about the attacks on the World Trade Center, early September 2001. And those warnings were ignored.

I see the whole War on Terror as bogus, but a total money making operation for the One Percent.
By criminalizing 290 million of us, they have a guaranteed expansion of surveillance programs, which we as patriotic citizens must accept, without question as to the rhyme, reason or any auditing of the damn money being spent (Aren't we as a nation broke, and needing to cut 4,1 trillions of dollars from the national budget over ten years? Apparently not!)

And if you ever protest, (or even demand an audit!) then you too can be considered a terrorist, and now they have justifiable cause to grab you and take you away. Remember, right now over 18 states are privatizing their prisons, and agreeing to keep those prisons at 98% capacity!



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 12:50 PM

218. Yeah, that's the ticket!!

 

cuz dem terra-ist just luv to chat about their activities on the phone and thru emails and such

That's the ticket!!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mercymechap (Reply #34)

Mon Jun 10, 2013, 07:36 PM

258. See here is the thing

Yes, we are being photographed.

Yet, what happens when WE photograph what THEY don't think we should? I think this is kind of chilling for people who live in a "free" country...don't you? But you see, we have ceded these rights with very little pushback. And nothing like Hitler happens overnight. It is ALWAYS little by little...and the brownshirts are always calling us alarmists.

https://www.google.com/search?q=arrested+while+photographing&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink