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Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:07 AM

Why the NSA scandal belongs squarely in President Obama's lap

If you hire me as a Manager, then the things that happened before I showed up to run a department are not my fault. I wasn't there, I can't be expected to fix things that happened before then. I can be and absolutely should be held responsible for things that happen from the time I show up onward.

Bush was an idiot. We said so on this board many many times. We posted polls that the majority of people said so.

We cheered President Obama's election. We called him a Genius during the campaign, and many times since. Bush shredded the Constitution, and we protested it.

So we take the two cases. An idiot who wasn't smart enough to understand the importance of the Constitution. One who was accepted to Harvard Business School based upon his family influence. Then Daddy kept him safe from the nasty old War in Vietnam. A Frat boy who never earned a thing in his life. Too stupid to even manage to own a baseball team without losing a ton of other people's money. It was too much to expect that Bush the idiot would understand the 4th Amendment. He probably used that phrase to request a Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwich. A moron who agreed with the Fascist bastards Rove and Cheney when they proposed this crap.

If limited mental capacity is justification for mitigation of sentence, then we must admit that Bush was certainly limited in mental capacity. That doesn't mean he should be forgiven by any stretch of the imagination. However, when assigning blame, we should recognize that he was an idiot and almost certainly didn't come up with this. Undoubtedly Cheney did, with Rove, and when they briefed Bush with hand puppets told him all was cool with it.

But President Obama has no such excuse. Unlike Bush, he was not only a Law School Grad instead of a Business School graduated by his Family name, but actually taught Constitutional Law. President Obama almost certainly lectured on the 4th Amendment during his tenure. He certainly studied it at Harvard Law. So we find that one was an idiot, and the other was a genius who taught the importance of the 4th Amendment.

President Obama had a choice. A choice to say no. A choice to defend the Constitution as he swore an oath to do. A choice that was dictated to him by his legal education. From the NY Times covering his initial inauguration.
Barack Hussein Obama became the 44th president of the United States on Tuesday before a massive crowd reveling in a moment of historical significance, and called on Americans to confront together an economic crisis that he said was caused by “our collective failure to make hard choices.”

He didn't make the right choice, he didn't make the hard choice. He took the easy way out, and for that, the blame rests squarely on his shoulders. He had the power, and he failed to take the right action, the action that was required by the Constitution, and by his oath. We can blame Congress, for they share some blame. But one man had the power to say no. That one man did not do the right thing when he absolutely knew better.

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Arrow 82 replies Author Time Post
Reply Why the NSA scandal belongs squarely in President Obama's lap (Original post)
Savannahmann Jun 2013 OP
nashville_brook Jun 2013 #1
Coyotl Jun 2013 #60
nashville_brook Jun 2013 #63
Coyotl Jun 2013 #69
greytdemocrat Jun 2013 #2
Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #4
marshall Jun 2013 #54
monmouth3 Jun 2013 #3
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #13
JaneyVee Jun 2013 #29
monmouth3 Jun 2013 #31
Puzzledtraveller Jun 2013 #5
blm Jun 2013 #6
peace13 Jun 2013 #8
siligut Jun 2013 #22
Coyotl Jun 2013 #61
peace13 Jun 2013 #72
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #9
blm Jun 2013 #14
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #16
blm Jun 2013 #19
woo me with science Jun 2013 #34
blm Jun 2013 #42
woo me with science Jun 2013 #43
blm Jun 2013 #52
woo me with science Jun 2013 #53
blm Jun 2013 #55
woo me with science Jun 2013 #56
blm Jun 2013 #70
Generic Other Jun 2013 #71
siligut Jun 2013 #24
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #25
siligut Jun 2013 #26
Whiskeytide Jun 2013 #15
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #17
Whiskeytide Jun 2013 #21
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #23
BlueCheese Jun 2013 #40
PADemD Jun 2013 #57
Whiskeytide Jun 2013 #66
bluedeathray Jun 2013 #35
pkdu Jun 2013 #51
peace13 Jun 2013 #7
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #10
longship Jun 2013 #12
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #18
Daniel537 Jun 2013 #11
peace13 Jun 2013 #20
TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #37
Cha Jun 2013 #78
AndyA Jun 2013 #27
randome Jun 2013 #28
AndyA Jun 2013 #32
randome Jun 2013 #36
Cha Jun 2013 #80
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #33
randome Jun 2013 #38
TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #41
randome Jun 2013 #44
TheKentuckian Jun 2013 #82
Cha Jun 2013 #79
Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #30
Poll_Blind Jun 2013 #46
great white snark Jun 2013 #50
Coyotl Jun 2013 #62
DCBob Jun 2013 #39
alcibiades_mystery Jun 2013 #45
morningfog Jun 2013 #59
alcibiades_mystery Jun 2013 #67
morningfog Jun 2013 #68
Life Long Dem Jun 2013 #76
Mr Dixon Jun 2013 #47
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #64
Mr Dixon Jun 2013 #73
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #74
Mr Dixon Jun 2013 #75
great white snark Jun 2013 #48
librechik Jun 2013 #49
Savannahmann Jun 2013 #58
librechik Jun 2013 #65
JoeyT Jun 2013 #77
Turbineguy Jun 2013 #81

Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:26 AM

1. k and r

very well said.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #1)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:28 PM

60. Let's see, this is now a "scandal" instead of a law, but Bush did it illegally

and it just now became a scandal because Republicans are trying to pin it on Obama?

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #60)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:39 PM

63. lamest conspiracy theory, ever.

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Response to nashville_brook (Reply #63)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 03:26 PM

69. FACTS are not theories

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:26 AM

2. Rut Roh!!!! nt

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #2)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:28 AM

4. FULL IGNORE?

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #4)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:06 PM

54. We can't ignore our President

This difficult time will pass, but President needs our continued support.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:27 AM

3. Then after he was elected President he had that little heart-to-heart with the Defense

Department, the Generals, etc. and they pointed out many things to the President that is not known by the Public. The FBI, CIA and various other groups would show him some info he perhaps could not ignore. Only guessing here but I'm betting George W. went through the same intel awareness.

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Response to monmouth3 (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:45 AM

13. Did the oath he took say he would side with the Defense Department?

It said he would support and defend the Constitution. A document he knows intimately. A document he lectured on. A document that is the foundation of our nation. A document we said the Republicans shredded on a daily basis.

Again, he had a choice. A choice to do the right thing, the constitutional thing, and fulfill his oath. Hero's don't go into the history books for going along with others. They go into the history books for leading others. By your assertion, he is not the leader of the Nation, but merely a puppet for the amusement of others. I reject that absolutely. President Obama is a Genius, and because he is, the action is that much more distressing.

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Response to monmouth3 (Reply #3)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:52 AM

29. Actually he switched positions before he was elected:

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #29)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:54 AM

31. An interesting read. Thanks..n/t

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:29 AM

6. Bush was doing it illegally since 2002. Congress legalized it for him in 2006.

This program was institutionalized 3 years before Obama took office.

Do you have reason to believe Obama was doing MORE? If he declassifies the info, I expect we'll find out he was being MORE discerning with the power than Bush was and using it far less in regard to Americans than Bush BECAUSE he respects the constitution more than Bush.

Why on earth are you all reacting as if this is all a surprise to you? It's being done with judiciary approval. If it turns out that the WH was going outside of judicial approval then it will be a critical issue.




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Response to blm (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:36 AM

8. +100

People really haven't been asleep that long have they. I have to wonder about the timing in this. What is the real news that we don't know about yet? Look...a puppy!

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Response to peace13 (Reply #8)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:34 AM

22. Trying to think of a name for becoming aware of something only when it benefits the GOP

Noncompos has already been used and pertains more to memory. This is a matter of hiding ones head in the sand until the media says it is okay to be outraged.

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Response to siligut (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:29 PM

61. The word you are looking for is "propaganda"

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Response to siligut (Reply #22)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 04:17 PM

72. A special form of incubation!

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Response to blm (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:37 AM

9. The President runs the NSA

The President would have taken a minute to call for an Executive Order ending the practice naming as it's reason the 4th Amendment. It would have taken an hour to write the thing up. He commands the Executive Branch, he could have, should have said no.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:49 AM

14. Do you KNOW that he was using it to target Americans? No. If he was showing discernment then

that right there would be a huge difference from Bush.
If he was using it to ONLY target international terrorists, then that would be a huge advancement from the Bush years.

I know you're now invested in this position, but, to demand a president halt a legal program completely that CAN be used to intercept terror plans is a waste of time. I will applaud him if he CURBED the power he has to assure that every American was NOT caught up in the net. I suspect that he did restrain some of that power and was much more discerning. We will see when the documents are released.

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Response to blm (Reply #14)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:54 AM

16. That's the point.

There is no way on Earth that seizing data about everyone can be legal. The 4th Amendment says warrants will be issued with probable cause. What probable cause can there possibly be that warrants the seizing of everyone's data? All you can say is that someone in there, is a bad guy, and we need all this to find out who. That isn't probable cause. Probable cause is we think Bob is a bad guy, and here is why, and this is what we need.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized


Particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. Give us everything from anywhere you might have it daily isn't a warrant. It is an egregious violation of the Constitution. One that Professor Obama who taught law should know better than anyone here.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:59 AM

19. You're assuming. I'm willing to bet that Obama did put curbs on the program and I have never been

a huge Obama fan. I have maintained he had been far too timid with his power of office and too fearful of Republican backlash throughout his first term.

We'll see when the documents are dumped on us. They have to now that some in the media have accessed them.

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Response to blm (Reply #19)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:59 AM

34. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh, that was funny! And "I'm willing to bet" that plaid unicorns are flying out of Joe Biden's butt!

Good god.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #34)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:24 PM

42. Sorry to disappoint you, but, I do believe Obama didn't go to the extremes Bush did

and that he did show greater discernment.

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Response to blm (Reply #42)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:36 PM

43. I belieeeeeeeeeeeeve!



Chilling Legal Memo From Obama DOJ Justifies Assassination of US Citizens
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654954

Obama seeks longer PATRIOT Act extension than Republicans (December 2013)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x380450

When it comes to civil liberties, apparently Democrats are just as bad as Republicans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022101960

NSA's Massive New Spy Center to Track Your Emails, Internet Activity, and Phone Calls
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101620852

Obama Quietly Signs Abusive Spy Bill He Once Vowed to Eliminate
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022104861

Obama repeals Magna Carta, asserting powers our forefathers denied to Kings
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101655620

Obama's Memo on Killing Americans Twists 'Imminent Threat' Like Bush
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101654919

Obama no better than Bush when it comes to security vs. civil liberties.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022355307

Obama Admin Seeks Permission TO LIE In Response To FOI Requests - Even To The COURTS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2185303

NDAA on trial: Obama Administration fights ban on indefinite detention of Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101748688

Obama administration complicit with private prison industry: President Obama's IncarcerNation
http://www.nationofchange.org/president-obama-s-incarcernation-1335274655

Obama, Democrats Push to Make Bush Spying Laws Permanent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022084702

NDAA, signed by Obama, is a direct attack against legitimate protest and dissent
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022064803

NSA Whistleblower: All Americans under constant surveillance, all info. stored, no matter the post
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002193487; http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021935289

Bipartisan Congress Disgracefully Approves the FISA Warrantless Spying Bill for Five More Years
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022087323

While Public & Media Focused on 2nd Amendment, 5th Amendment Quietly Dismantled
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022390581

How the Obama administration justifies extrajudicial killing of Americans,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022318187

Judge Says Under Law Executive Branch Can Commit Acts That Sure Do Seem Unconstitutional
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022122464

Obama Justice Dept. says wiretap lawsuit should not proceed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014337039

NDAA Lawsuit- Hedges v. Obama, The Last Thin Line of Defense
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022357078

Federal authorities step up efforts to license surveillance drones for law enforcement
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022383596

Big Banks and FBI worked together vs Occupy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022095056]

FBI Investigated 'Occupy' As Possible 'Domestic Terrorism' Threat, Internal Documents Show
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022061578

FBI Documents Reveal Secret Nationwide Occupy Monitoring (Updated the OP)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022057064

Public Buses Across Country Quietly Adding Microphones to Record Passenger Conversations
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021965291

Street artist behind satirical NYPD 'Drone' posters arrested
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021920967

The Obama DOJ urged the Supreme Court's endorsement of strip searches.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002521527

Obama Administration Fights to Allow Warrantless GPS Tracking
http://sync.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1074474

Anonymous to FBI: hey, dudes, maybe you could take a break from...investigating activists....
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022145621

Half a billion dollars for drones to spy on Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021876414

From Bradley Manning to Aaron Swartz -- The Government's Inhumane Persecution of Brave Truth Tellers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276941

The sight of Army helicopters and the sound of gunfire...on Houston's south side
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022276742

Kiriakou and Stuxnet: the danger of the still-escalating Obama whistleblower war
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275570

Can the DEA Hide a Surveillance Camera on Your Property?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022237059

Social Media and the Stasi
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021888029

Homeland Security Wants to More Than Double Its Predator Drone Fleet Inside the US, Despite Safety/Privacy Invasions
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014312823

CIA Behind Bizarre Censorship Incident At Alleged 9/11 Plotters’ Gitmo Trial
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022280285

“I Am Wearing My Conviction As A Badge Of Honor.”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022275128

Meet the Contractors Turning America's Police Into a Paramilitary Force
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12525281

How Secrecy Corrodes Democracy
http://election.democraticunderground.com/101655009

Obama Quietly Issues Ruling Saying It's Legal For The FBI To Break The Law
http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7545687

US Pulls Plug on Iran Cable News (Press TV)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014394770

DHS Watchdog OKs 'Suspicionless' Seizure of Electronic Devices Along Border
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022339091

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #43)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:03 PM

52. I'm well aware of all of that and still state that when all the documents are released we'll see

that Obama showed more restraint in the program's use than Bush and Cheney did.

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Response to blm (Reply #52)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:04 PM

53. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You should have an act.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #53)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:08 PM

55. If you trust Bush-Cheney with NSA program more than Obama-Biden, you should've voted for McCain.

.

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Response to blm (Reply #55)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:11 PM

56. YOU MUST WANT PRESIDENT PALIN!!!!!!!




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Response to woo me with science (Reply #56)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 03:52 PM

70. just getting down to brass tacks, woo....

laugh, laugh

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #43)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 03:58 PM

71. Thank you for compiling this list

I remember when DU threads all looked like this.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #16)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:38 AM

24. Are you really unaware of the NSA Data Center being built in Utah?

Under construction by contractors with top-secret clearances, the blandly named Utah Data Center is being built for the National Security Agency. A project of immense secrecy, it is the final piece in a complex puzzle assembled over the past decade. Its purpose: to intercept, decipher, analyze, and store vast swaths of the world’s communications as they zap down from satellites and zip through the underground and undersea cables of international, foreign, and domestic networks. The heavily fortified $2 billion center should be up and running in September 2013. Flowing through its servers and routers and stored in near-bottomless databases will be all forms of communication, including the complete contents of private emails, cell phone calls, and Google searches, as well as all sorts of personal data trails—parking receipts, travel itineraries, bookstore purchases, and other digital “pocket litter.” It is, in some measure, the realization of the “total information awareness” program created during the first term of the Bush administration—an effort that was killed by Congress in 2003 after it caused an outcry over its potential for invading Americans’ privacy.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/

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Response to siligut (Reply #24)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:40 AM

25. Yes I am aware of it.

I've posted that link a couple times. Are we going to argue that this is also just fine and dandy and President Obama had no choice?

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #25)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:42 AM

26. We aren't going to argue at all

I am just pointing out your very timely OP

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #9)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:51 AM

15. The problem is that the intel...

... is so valuable, perhaps for both good and bad purposes, but valuable nevertheless.

I suspect the President and those around him convinced themselves that they were faced with two options: (1) Ending the program and losing the intel - thereby increasing the risk of a surprise 9/11 type attack - or (2) Continuing it in the hopes that such an attack could be prevented. They examined and analyzed the damage the fallout from the two options posed to the administration, and chose to continue the program. I.e., they rationalized it. They may be democrats, but they're still politicians.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:56 AM

17. If that is the case, it is more than distressing.

For someone who doesn't know the law to break it, we argue that ignorance is no excuse, rightly or wrongly. For someone who knows the law, and chooses to violate the most basic of our laws, the protections enshrined in the Bill of Rights, that is unbelievable.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #17)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:23 AM

21. I agree.

But in this case, technically, I don't think it "breaks" the law. Congress authorized it. Perhaps the most distressing thing of all is just that. The law seems to be unconstitutional - or at least skirting the line - yet we, the people - and the courts, and the "notso" free press, let our government slip it by us without much fanfare.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #21)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:38 AM

23. In the end, my point stands.

One man had the power to stop it. The one man we as a party got behind, and campaigned for. We can blame South Carolina for Lindsey Graham. We can blame Kentucky for Rand Paul. But each of those idiots has limited power. One man held the power to stop this in his hand. He could have Vetoed the PATRIOT ACT as he said he would. He could have stopped this and forced Congress to override his Veto. He could have used the Bully Pulpit to blast Congress for even wanting to abuse the citizens in such a way. The groudswell of public support would have lifted him to new unimaginable heights.

Instead, that one man went along, and that one man is to blame, because while most Senators, and most Representatives voted for it, only one man signed it into law.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #23)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:31 PM

40. The really irritating thing is that I bet Rand Paul is right on this one.

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Response to Whiskeytide (Reply #15)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:24 PM

57. The Patriot Act spying didn't protect us from the Tsarnaev brothers.

Would it have protected us from the Unibomber? Did Ted Kaczynski use email or a cell phone?

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Response to PADemD (Reply #57)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:51 PM

66. It's interesting to consider that...

... isn't it? What does that tell us? The Tsarnaev brothers were pretty social media minded, it seems. I haven't spent a lot of time looking into it, but it seems I read that one of them had posted a lot of anti American stuff, and there's the whole trip to Russia thing. I'm sure they spoke and texted to each other about it on their cell phones at least some during the planning stages. People in their teens and early 20s don't know how else to communicate. Maybe they were ultra paranoid about it, but I doubt it.

IF the NSA is looking over our shoulders and watching "our thoughts as they form", why didn't they easily see those guys coming? Are they incompetent? Are they too saturated in information? Are they really NOT looking at our content very much? Are they looking at people's porn more than their anti-American rants?

I think Kaczynski was a pretty low-tech guy. More from the pre-internet generation. I think we can discount him as a statistical anomaly in this analysis.

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Response to blm (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:01 PM

35. This is a judiciary that operates in secret.

Can you honestly expect, especially in consideration of our governments past actions, that panel makes all it's decisions based on the Constitution, or the good of the American people?

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Response to blm (Reply #6)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:02 PM

51. ^^^^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^^

They clearly haven't been paying attention ....Lawrence ODonnell nailed it last night.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:32 AM

7. Are you saying that President Obama should have lobbied every Congress person to overturn the ....

...Patriot Act? Has Congress voted one time with Obama? Good luck scolding him for not trying. As for all of the spying, it is legal under the law that passed almost unanimously twelve years ago. But go on, explain!

At the time of it's passing there were many discussions in here and in the press that once power is given away it will never be returned.

Be happy that your grieving only started today. I know that I have been where you are for twelve years. I have protested, called every Senator on many issues and it still turned out like this.

I am not sure where all of this outrage is coming from at this late date! But...put it to use, lobby to remove the PA, the single reason why there is Legal spying on citizens today.

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Response to peace13 (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:39 AM

10. President Obama didn't have to lobby Congress

All he had to do was refuse to sign the reauthorization of the PATRIOT ACT.

He has the power, pretending he doesn't is insulting to you, and me.

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Response to peace13 (Reply #7)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:42 AM

12. Yup! Obama alone has no power to repeal the law.

He needs congress to do that. A congress which authorized this stuff with overwhelming bipartisan support.

Sometimes I think that many DUers do not understand our Constitution and how things work in this country.

And no!!! I am not supporting the policy itself.

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Response to longship (Reply #12)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 09:58 AM

18. President Obama had all the power to repeal the law.

He had to sign it into law. He had the power to say no. He decided to say yes, and that is why this rests solely on his shoulders and he alone is to blame. He can't claim he didn't understand, because he taught Constitutional Law. He can't say he had no authority. He is the Chief Executive of the Executive Branch, and he signed the reauthorization act.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)


Response to Daniel537 (Reply #11)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 10:31 AM

20. You can be against the President but...

I think you have crossed the line with your name calling. Consider removing the offensive term!

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Response to peace13 (Reply #20)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:08 PM

37. Bogus hide. The poster's point was 100% accurate and his reaction to the point perfectly reasonable

The Patriot Act is horrific, signing off on it is certainly authoritarian and that shit is baked right into the cake and authoritarianism being called assholery is pretty damn mild.

Unless this shit is our agenda (and it won't be mine) then we should be putting maximum distance between our positions and crap like this instead of absurdly circling the wagons.

You can't circle the wagons here without buying big on not just the "who" but the "what" you must defend.

Not for ANY price, I say. To be maneuvered into support of such distortions of our foundation law and aspirations is unacceptable and I would think impossible for people that actually value who and what we as a people aspire (or at least once did, not so long ago) to be.

The game aspect and personality focus have gone way to far. It seems the basic points have been lost in the fluff and pageantry.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 9, 2013, 04:11 AM

78. No, it wasn't bogus at all. Pleasantly, Surprised though in this lynch

mob atmosphere that it was.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:49 AM

27. President Obama has had time to look into this and make sure it's legal.

The fact he hasn't done anything places the current blame in his lap. He's had over four years to change this, but it looks like he's just allowed it to continue. He's as guilty as Bush at this point. The M$M will likely use this as a reason to eviscerate President Obama and the Democrats--they've been looking for something.

John Boehner, Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and the rest of the Republicons likely all had wet dreams last night, knowing of this gift Obama has placed in their laps.

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Response to AndyA (Reply #27)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:51 AM

28. Do you have any idea what would have happened if Obama did NOT use all the tools available to him...

...and there was an attack on the U.S.? Republican 'outrage' would be so overwhelming, they would stay in power for ANOTHER 30 years.

If we don't like the Patriot Act -and who does?- then we need to lean on Congress to repeal it or reign it in.



Stop looking for heroes. BE one.


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Response to randome (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:55 AM

32. Is there any conclusive evidence that this program has prevented any attacks?

It's not just the phone numbers now, it's also the interception of ALL internet data. Everything--contents of emails, sites visited, personal information. Even if they attempt to justify it as only overseas connections, just about everything is relayed to servers all over the place, including overseas, so the fact you're in America and looking at an American site (like DU) doesn't mean that somewhere along the way a server overseas wasn't involved in the process.

Everyone is being spied on. With or without cause.

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Response to AndyA (Reply #32)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:07 PM

36. Of course there is no conclusive evidence. Why would they announce anything like that?

That would just tell terrorists what tools they are using and then they could take measures to get around them.

Telecoms already have a ton of information about all of us. So does Google. So does Microsoft. It's the price we pay to have 24/7 connectivity to the world.

PRISM is more worrisome, I admit, but I saw something recently that says it's not quite as draconian as advertised. If it's as bad as some have said, then I agree steps need to be taken to reign it in.

But cell phone meta data? Couldn't care less.



Stop looking for heroes. BE one.


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Response to randome (Reply #36)

Sun Jun 9, 2013, 04:25 AM

80. There's this, randome..

Here’s how this story has played out since late Thursday.

snip***

"On Twitter, Greenwald defended his reporting by reiterating that the NSA said within the PRISM document that there has been “collection directly from the servers of these US service providers: Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook…” But this could mean that the data was drawn from the servers, vetted and handed over to the NSA per Google’s stated process of legal vetting. And if the data was made available, it’s possible that the tech companies posted it on a server for the NSA analysts to download, just as you might download a file from work or a friend via Dropbox or an FTP server. Regardless, it seems as if Greenwald’s entire story hinges on a semantic interpretation of the PRISM language. And his mistake was to leap from “collection directly from servers” to “direct access.”

6. More exploded heads anyway. Anyone relaying the new information is accused of being an Obamabot.

***snip

9. By the end of the day Friday, Business Insider reported that the Washington Post had revised its article. The article no longer reported that the tech companies “knowingly” cooperated with PRISM. But, more importantly, the phrase “track a person’s movements and contacts over time” in the article’s lede was revised to “track foreign targets.” There’s a huge difference between the two phrases. Public outrage was almost entirely based on the idea that the NSA was spying on everyone who uses those services — broad, unrestricted access to private information (as private as social media and email is). But the revision limits the scope of the operation to international communications.

***snip

As of Saturday, Greenwald, unlike the Washington Post, hadn’t corrected or revised his reporting to reflect the new information, and, in fact, Greenwald continued to defend his reporting on Twitter. (It’s worth noting how speculative Greenwald’s article was. The following line was particularly leading: “It also opens the possibility of communications made entirely within the US being collected without warrants.” There’s no indication whatsoever that the government was gathering information without warrants.)"

snip***

http://thedailybanter.com/2013/06/nsa-story-falling-apart-under-scrutiny-key-facts-turning-out-to-be-inaccurate/

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Response to randome (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:58 AM

33. We needed President Obama to follow through on what Candidate Obama promised

We needed him to Veto the Reauthorization in 2011. He could have had all the television time in the world to explain to the people that the Constitution did not intend, nor allow this sort of thing to happen. He could have explained why he vetoed it for days, weeks, months. The people would have been shocked. The morons who vote Repug would have voted Repug anyway. The rest of the people would have seen a man who was a former Law Professor standing up for the Constitution, and their individual civil rights.

Instead, we have a man, who is continuing an abomination of a policy, who signed the bill keeping it in effect. President Obama owns this, lock stock and barrel. We could blame Bush right up until President Obama signed the reauthorization of the act.

Worse, we have the Repugs now lining up to oppose the program they started. Oh they'll claim they never intended this with the law. The fucking House will pass a resolution calling on proper restraint in exercising this. They will link to "Obamacare" and claim if the Government abused the authority granted by Congress, who knows what abuses they will inflict on the people under "Obamacare".

We needed the man who ran for the Democratic Nomination, instead we got John McCain in everything but name.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #33)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:11 PM

38. I hear where you're coming from, really.

But I think politics intrudes its ugly head into matters like this from time to time.

Was there a veto proof majority in Congress to overrule him at the time?

And as I said before, Republicans would be ECSTATIC for him to end the program and then have it be followed by a terrorist attack. That's politics, too.



Stop looking for heroes. BE one.


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Response to randome (Reply #28)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:49 PM

41. Fuck the TeaPubliKlan outrage, where was it when 9/11 actually happened on their watch?

Would they not be equally outraged if an attack occurred and Obama did use every tool?

Where they outraged when an attack actually happened and their guy could have stopped it with far less?

The logic is essentially circular to the point that what you present is an excuse not a reason, a rationalization at best and the thirty year prognostication pulled out of thin air based more on figment than fact.

Of course I don't subscribe to a brand of politics that insists on the pretense that TeaPubliKlans are honest brokers that want the best for the nation that we just happen to have a few disagreements with that we just want to meet in the middle with them on as a bizarre counter to their savaging us in the most absurd and often wholly dishonest ways that dictates an extremely defensive posture apparently motivated by the firm belief that the people don't actually agree with us and must be suckered into even the smallest movement in our direction or a desire to snooker Democrats into coming closer to the TeaPubliKlan way of thinking.

Either way it is worthless because the TeaPubliKlans dictate so even if they loose, they actually win because our best efforts are strictly limited to working their agenda under hopefully better management (which I am suspicious of being a long term good thing because it makes their shit more likely to stick and gain broad acceptance).

In my world we'd fight back, obstruct their awful agenda, place blame dead on them, call lies lies, and give the people a competing vision rather than an opportunity for alternative management of the same nightmare.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #41)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:41 PM

44. I don't care about their outrage either!

But the political truth is that Republicans would sweep back into power if Obama stopped using all the tools at his disposal and there was a subsequent attack on the U.S.

It's reality. If we don't like the Patriot Act, we need to change it.



Stop looking for heroes. BE one.


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Response to randome (Reply #44)

Tue Jun 11, 2013, 09:27 PM

82. Like the Democrats did in 2002 and then when BushCo was booted in 2004?

I see your point, it is a figment.

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Response to AndyA (Reply #27)

Sun Jun 9, 2013, 04:14 AM

79. Well it is "legal".. so what's your point?

The corporatemedia uses any ol thing to try and drag down PBO .. just like posters on the internet.

My money's on Pres Obama.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 11:53 AM

30. Saying "other guy did it too" is a piss poor excuse for spying on Americans.

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #30)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:45 PM

46. Indeed. Weaksauce supreme. nt

PB

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Response to Poll_Blind (Reply #46)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:58 PM

50. Weak is not discerning a difference between now and Bush.

Your outrage sauce expired years ago.

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Response to great white snark (Reply #50)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:32 PM

62. ^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^ +1000000000000000

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 12:12 PM

39. What scandal??

They claim its legit.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:41 PM

45. What's the scandal?

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #45)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:26 PM

59. Access all the data of every customer every day for at least one phone company.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #59)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 03:15 PM

67. I understand that you disagree with what was done

But usually illegality or impropriety are needed for a scandal. This has neither. You just disagree with it.

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Response to alcibiades_mystery (Reply #67)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 03:18 PM

68. It's impropriety is obvious, its legality questionable.

ETA: If you don't think this is a scandal, you must have missed the President rushing to stamp it out.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #68)

Sun Jun 9, 2013, 02:44 AM

76. President Obama Defends NSA Surveillance Programs As “Right Balance”

 

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:47 PM

47. Really? SMH



This whole issue is stupid, and the outrage is stupid, the
NSA has been doing this for years the patriot Act is just the official version. Doesn’t matter who is in office the spying
will go on, “there is no one checking the checker” pretty simple. They tapped MLK, JFK, RFK and Malcolm X what
the sam-hell makes you think you’re exempt? This is pure media misdirection, what else do
they have to talk about until 2014? The
Media has kick the ant hill and now the public is running in fear, same old
shit, rinse and release.

How about we try and focus on real issues like Monsanto
feeding us science lab food? or global warming, the pipeline, immigration, rape in
the Military, PSTD, homeless veterans, Jobs paying a living wage and last but
not least how the 1% are screwing us all……..SMH

Worrying about wire tap’s or cell phone records and facebook
data, is like worrying about whether the sky is blue, if it is or isn’t there
is jack-shit we can do about it.

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Response to Mr Dixon (Reply #47)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:39 PM

64. Under what authority do we address those other issues?

If the Constitution no longer matters, if the very foundation of our civilization is no longer worthy of the effort to protect it from abuse. Where do we find the authority to address those other issues? What do we use for our justification? It just isn't fair? Why, it's not fair that Monsanto feeds us Science Lab Food. If Congress can without an amendment, wipe out the 4th Amendment, and the President is willing to sign it, what makes you think that we can touch Monsanto with a feather?

Global Warming? How do we address it? If the Constitution is gone, where do we get the authority that Congress would need to pass any laws?

Do you see the point? If we don't defend Civil Liberties, and the protections of the individual enshrined in the foundation of our nation, there is no hope of ever addressing those other issues. If the Government won't obey number one and number four of the bill of rights, why should they obey lesser rules passed decades and even centuries later?

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #64)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 06:27 PM

73. Point taken


I see your point believe me it is not lost on me. The Constitution is way overdue for an update IMO. The point is we are powerless to stop the spying phone taps and whatever other technology that is being used to track and monitor us. The constitution and data base collection are worlds apart. We are not riding horse and buggies anymore, it just doesn’t apply. The constitution goes only 10 feet into a 100 foot pool, we need to focus on the present and pass the knowledge that will affect change. I read on this site everyday and I gain a good amount of information which I pass-on once it has been verified, but it always confuses me when we get stuck in mud by bringing up the constitution. We don’t need authority to pass-on knowledge, you can fight on the outside with protest and outrage which is exactly what is excepted, we need to fight from the inside with truth and calculated expression. The power is in own wallets always has been, that is the God this country responses too.

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Response to Mr Dixon (Reply #73)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 06:45 PM

74. The Constitution applies.

In this case, the 4th Amendment. The 4th Amendment says The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

So what crime is being investigated? The Warrant does not say. Who is to be served the Warrant? Verizon is this released instance. But Verizon is not the target of the investigation, everyone who uses a cell phone company is. All of our movements which are tracked by the E-911 system are logged, which tower you are currently nearest to at the minimum. What numbers you call, what text messages you send, what data you transmit and receive, in other words what web pages.

Are you or I accused or suspected of a crime? No. Does it help prevent terrorist attacks like the one in Boston? No. So what does it do? It erodes our civil rights. Rights our founders felt important enough to spell out to each of us. The Equal Protection clause of the old document is the foundation we use to argue for Equal Rights for GLBT individuals. It is hardly an ancient document, and while we are not in the horse and buggy days, the data the Feds want is available, for anyone they want, providing they have a proper warrant that lists the person being investigated, and what information is thought to exist.

All of us are not suspects, and we should not have to sacrifice our civil rights for the illusion of security. Boston proved that tens of thousands of homeland security agents don't make us safer. All the little old ladies who got patted down at the airport by TSA goons did nothing to protect us.

The fourth amendment matters, and as soon as we decide it doesn't, we have no defense against any police or federal agent going anywhere he/she wants and demanding any information they want. In this scenario, we would be guilty until proven innocent, an idea I will eschew without hesitation.

I have railed against the PATRIOT ACT as long as I have understood what it does. The fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments matter. So long as we the people demand that they matter. We can sit down and take this, or we can stand up and shout at Washington until they fix it and stop abusing our rights. We choose them for their jobs, and we are the bosses of this Government. Otherwise it is not a Government of, for, and by the people. It is England, where all rights are derived from the grace of the King. We may trust Obama with this outlandish power more than Bush, but who is to say who comes next?

Imagine Rand Paul with this kind of power. Or worse, another Bush in the form of Jeb. Imagine the damage they could do. Romney would have been bad, but I can think of a lot of people who would have been worse. What we are fighting for is not just the present, but limits on the next President. We can hope that a Democrat wins, and we can hope that Democrat is wise and judicious. We must always remember that the next President could well be a Republican, or a DINO with dreams of power that would shock Stalin. If we give them an inch, they take a mile. Don't give up the inch.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #74)

Sun Jun 9, 2013, 02:19 AM

75. The truth

Last edited Sun Jun 9, 2013, 11:05 AM - Edit history (1)

A new American revolution has begun. Not against the forces of a colonial kingdom, but a rebellion against an oppressor that has risen among us.
It is not a foreign invasion we have to fear, rather the threat of a force within our nation that has usurped what was once a dream of having the greatest democracy ever known to man.

We now live in a world where the population has grown exponentially,
And the planet is running out of resources to sustain us all. We in the inner-city and those struggling in the suburban ghettos may not realize it yet, but make no mistake, the people who control the technology and run every enterprise that makes up our world have seen this coming for a long time. The ideas of renewable energy, global warming, the idea of collectively working were purposefully bought out, derailed, demonized, or corrupted in favor of an economic structure designed by a monetary caste system.

In a desperate attempt to convince us that we need to maintain that extravagant existence, they’ve pretended we might share in their dream.
That we can justify any inhumanity in its name. Out of this blind ignorance was born the curse of slavery. Many of the founders of this nation were themselves Masons. That is not a Left wing or Right wing conspiracy theory. It is a widely known and accepted fact.

So then explain to me how a nation founded by men who not only understood the long and complicated history of Europe, but also that of Africa could permeate such a lie in convincing the American public that one race of men was superior and one inferior. When, in fact, we know that all the early men the people who created civilization and every aspect of what we see today, the foundation of all human life, were from Africa

The greatest cowardice of course came not with slavery itself, unfortunately. But with the excuses for slavery. For if America had been as brave as the Roman Empire and all other empires that have come after her, and claimed “No, we were just stronger and that’s why we took you,” then when slavery was over, racism would’ve probably followed in suit.

But instead it was the social lie, the religious lie that was told that stayed in the minds of people that separated one human being from another. In order to distract us from the issues of class and freedom, they created issues around religion and race to dominate the world for centuries to come.

Some claim that they respect the culture of life in this country. They cry out for indignity of children that are slaughtered before they are born. But God has not penetrated their souls, for they have no empathy.
Nothing in their cold hearts for the hundreds of thousands of lives we have taken in our wars overseas, for that which they call “collateral damage,” which are the burnt and damaged children of the world. They have no prayers for them. Only snide commentary on the internet and laughter in their hearts. And yet you claim to be one with God?

We talk about immigration in this country. Might doesn’t make right ladies and gentleman; it just makes right now. What we are saying to the rest of the world is, one day, when America grows weak, one day when her legions falter, on the day when her economy crumbles... China, Russia, Europe, whatever power has arisen... all you have to do is come here and conquer us in a few military excursions, and then you too can set up shop here, and in 100 years you can tell every red-blooded American, “No, you are an illegal human being. I am the true citizen. I have all the rights. You have no rights."

Maybe you forgot how you got this country. Maybe you take for granted the blood, the sweat, the tears, that the people who live in practical serfdom shed everyday. For we may not run America, but we make America run.

We talk about the Law, yet how many indignities have been legal in the past? How many treaties with Native American people have we broken? How many international laws have we violated? And, speaking of laws how can a corporation be regulated by a government that is funded and controlled by corporations? How can there be accountability for people who see a profit margin above the lives of Americans? Above the lives of human beings in other countries?

We have taken the soul out of ourselves and placed them inside machines.
My words, of course, will be marginalized, demonized in typical fashion. Any time you dare to question the power structure they say you hate America. No, I love this country. I see its beauty every day in its people. And I love it a lot more than those who have abandoned the American worker that have chose to exploit and try to take away every single benefit she has, those that attempt to make excuses for every atrocity committed, in the name of supposed freedom. Those who demand accountability from everyone, but offer none themselves... who favor contracts over lives... Who favor invasion and control over organic democracy overseas

The greatest flaw that any intelligent person has is to think that they’re smarter than everyone else. And so as the government has planted its spies amongst us, we have planted our spies among them. They have infiltrated every branch of the American government. They have retrieved names, data, hard numbers. The paper trail that will expose those that truly control this country, those that control the political parties, those that control the oil industry, the energy. Those that stand behind the companies faceless, whose names have never been revealed

Until tod.. (GUNSHOT)

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:54 PM

48. Scandal says you.

Has Obama done anything illegal?

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 01:57 PM

49. yeah, he coulda picked the hard way and we'd have President Boehner right now.

How convenient that both Obama and Biden were on the same small plane when it exploded.

Like you, I would have preferred he had made that hard choice, and that there would have been no negative consequences from the National Security Establishment. I'm just glad that Obama is still alive, and can sometimes slip something past them to help the American people.

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Response to librechik (Reply #49)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:25 PM

58. So let me get this straight.

He kept it going because of vague threats from the rich and shameless? Within a couple hundred feet of his office, are reporters from every major news organization in the world. If such a threat had been made, he could have squashed it like a bug in a minute. He could have had the individual communicating the threat arrested by the Secret Service Agent who is in the room with the President.

President Obama had the power, and he decided to go with the flow. We thought we elected a man of honor, of courage, in short. Superman. We got Clark Kent.

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Response to Savannahmann (Reply #58)

Fri Jun 7, 2013, 02:40 PM

65. lol. Sure. It would have been that simple.

maybe they just would have dropped an rice sized pill of plutonium in his coffee. Are you one of those people who talk about how Obama had a majority in the Senate and the House? As if Blue Dogs don't exists and the results aren't carefully planned in advance by Repub operatives and all we need is a floor vote or a veto from Obama?

read this. Rude says it so much better than me, and he is right on.

NSA Phone Record Collecting and the Melancholy of Living in the Future: http://t.co/N9LPsLUNFf

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Sun Jun 9, 2013, 03:46 AM

77. Not in his lap alone, though.

There are lots of laps that share it. Everyone that approved this at every stage shares a chunk of the blame.

This is a huge heaping hunk of fail with plenty to go around.

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Response to Savannahmann (Original post)

Sun Jun 9, 2013, 04:51 AM

81. Fox Noise pundits are concerned about all this spying.

Maybe Obama knows their scandal schedule now.

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