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MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 10:59 PM Jun 2013

The IRS sucks? Then we need more sucking!

The IRS spent $50 million on conferences from 2010-2012. Officeholders from both political parties say this is outrageous!, outrageous!, presumably because government employees are somehow different than employees in every other industry in the world, and shouldn't have conferences. Or something. And stuff.

The IRS's total budget was about $35 billion during that period. So the $50 million spent on conferences is about one-tenth of one percent of their budget.

And during those three years, the IRS collected about $7.5 trillion in taxes. That's right, the IRS's cost for collecting taxes is less than one-half of one percent of what's collected.

One-half of one percent.

Can you imagine if a private-sector business business was that efficient? PayPal charges about six times that much to collect money. And they're cheap compared to their competition.

I am reminded of what Lincoln said when told that Gen. Grant was a drunk: "Tell me what brand of whiskey that Grant drinks. I would like to send a barrel of it to my other generals."

I'm tired of the assholes in Washington beating up on government workers. On whole, they do an excellent job.

66 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The IRS sucks? Then we need more sucking! (Original Post) MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 OP
Employers send in taxes. former9thward Jun 2013 #1
The IRS has to go collect monies owed. PayPal simply denies the transaction if MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #3
Hmmm. I've been simply sending lots of money to the IRS for the past umpteen years Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #6
Why don't you try an experiment? MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #8
LOL SunSeeker Jun 2013 #42
. madokie Jun 2013 #57
That was kind of their point in post 1 joeglow3 Jun 2013 #64
The only reason employers send in taxes is so that the IRS doesn't come to the business TheDebbieDee Jun 2013 #10
No you don't know the law. former9thward Jun 2013 #14
You are as naive as you are rude! Businesses don't pay taxes or do anything TheDebbieDee Jun 2013 #31
You are an authoritarian. former9thward Jun 2013 #34
Grow up and open your eyes. We're not living in a Utopia. People don't always TheDebbieDee Jun 2013 #38
We should be more like... MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #41
That's hilarious. People go to PayPal voluntarily. They pay the vig voluntarily. Why are you rhett o rick Jun 2013 #13
The poster I was replying to brought up Pay Pal. former9thward Jun 2013 #17
And again I say that PayPal doesnt need the power of prison. I bet very few people try to stiff rhett o rick Jun 2013 #22
Is it even *possible* to stiff PayPal? MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #33
Greece has similar laws yet tax evasion is epic dsc Jun 2013 #28
Do you have a point here? nm rhett o rick Jun 2013 #35
that the IRS deserves a bit of credit for the difference. dsc Jun 2013 #52
I appreciate your desperate attempts to sell the status quo but rhett o rick Jun 2013 #53
Comparing other countries is always very dangerous. former9thward Jun 2013 #37
Do Greek IRS employees go to baseball games? MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #39
The many, many self-employed in the US pay JDPriestly Jun 2013 #44
Why should we be paying for IRS employees to stay at hotels and go to baseball games? Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #2
Perhaps because it works? MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #4
So how many baseball games per year should every government employee attend at our expense, Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #5
I guess it depends on how good the seats are... I'd accept nothing less than Loge, Row AA... cherokeeprogressive Jun 2013 #9
Why doesn't Costco cut wages by 2/3rds? MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #11
would monetary bonus be OK? dsc Jun 2013 #12
No longer allowed. Cerridwen Jun 2013 #19
Why should average people who *never* receive a bonus Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #23
well I am an average or even below average in terms of income who just got a bonus dsc Jun 2013 #27
Instead of hating government employees because they haven't lost the things most of us used to get MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #30
Why don't "average people" receive bonuses? Maybe you're asking the wrong question. Cerridwen Jun 2013 #32
Are there any RW fallacies or bad ideas that you don't approve of Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #7
Wow. I never realized that free baseball games and fancy hotel stays for IRS employees Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #20
Taking care of employees is a time-honored progressive ideal. Cerridwen Jun 2013 #24
If one is to believe that you are what you purport yourself to be, "I never realized" Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #36
That's an excellent, insightful post. Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #40
It was nothing. Really. But back to the question, are there any? n/t Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #49
Yes, that's the problem with America. Government employees. Hissyspit Jun 2013 #15
Well, when I want to go to a baseball game I go to Ticketmaster. Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #26
IMHO, this is the real IRS scandal. In 2012 there were 1.8 million identity theft victims. blue neen Jun 2013 #16
Perhaps if they spent more time on stuff like this, and less on swanky "conferences", Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #21
Let's hope that is what they were addressing at the conferences. blue neen Jun 2013 #25
The rightwing wants all employees to have low morale and operate like automated robots. No Fun. JaneyVee Jun 2013 #18
So in order to avoid this, all government employees should get to go to baseball games Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #29
Yeah rank and file government workers going to conferences and abelenkpe Jun 2013 #45
Oh no. Rumbled. Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #46
You're only being called put for being petty abelenkpe Jun 2013 #48
sorry, it is an outrageous use of taxpayer dollars cali Jun 2013 #55
I agree. Maybe some decent office parties though and paid vacations as well. JaneyVee Jun 2013 #59
Paid vacation is actually productive. Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #60
K & R SunSeeker Jun 2013 #43
It's an efficient model when madville Jun 2013 #47
Nah, I'm pretty sure most businesses would simply exploit that power to increase profits. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #50
We have had opposite experiences then madville Jun 2013 #51
Or perhaps we are talking about different things. The topic is, I believe, efficiency, not profits. Egalitarian Thug Jun 2013 #63
Republicans spent $55 million on votes to repeal Obamacare ProSense Jun 2013 #54
Well, that is another utterly stupid waste of time, but I question the math. Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #58
I love it when people get distracted by non issues. nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #56
Manny I am tired of those buying the crap from the car thieve nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #61
I don't give a flying fuck of it's 1/100 of a percent, honey. It's still real money cali Jun 2013 #62
IRS is NOT efficient! Hardwarenuts Dec 2013 #65
Clearly a boot licker Bmore84 Nov 2014 #66

former9thward

(31,805 posts)
1. Employers send in taxes.
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:10 PM
Jun 2013

The IRS does not go out and "collect it". If you work for yourself you do the paperwork and send in the money. The IRS is not out there knocking on your door collecting your taxes. So yeah when you have everyone else doing the "collecting" it is pretty easy to be "efficient".

To compare the IRS with Pay pal or anything else is ridiculous. The IRS has the force of law and the threat of prison if you don't comply. Pay pal's cost of doing business would be pretty cheap too if it had that power.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
3. The IRS has to go collect monies owed. PayPal simply denies the transaction if
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:25 PM
Jun 2013

the funds don't exist.

Much easier to be PayPal, I think.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
6. Hmmm. I've been simply sending lots of money to the IRS for the past umpteen years
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:38 PM
Jun 2013

without any effort at all on their part.

 

TheDebbieDee

(11,119 posts)
10. The only reason employers send in taxes is so that the IRS doesn't come to the business
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:46 PM
Jun 2013

to collect.

And as for force of law and threat of prison, if the IRS doesn't have the people to make the determination that ABC Business hasn't paid taxes or filed a return, then the threat of prison is moot.

Also, the IRS has been working hand-in-hand with the DOJ to prosecute these tax evaders and tax cheats - that's the real reason the repukes are calling for Atty Gen Holder's scalp and smearing the IRS.

former9thward

(31,805 posts)
14. No you don't know the law.
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:52 PM
Jun 2013

Business sends the taxes in because that is what the law says to do. It has nothing to do with not having the IRS coming to the business. They follow the law. If there was a law saying everyone had to give a certain percentage of money to me I would be very efficient at collecting money also. The IRS does has the people to determine whether taxes have been filed or not.

 

TheDebbieDee

(11,119 posts)
31. You are as naive as you are rude! Businesses don't pay taxes or do anything
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:13 AM
Jun 2013

else because the law says so. Businesses pay their taxes to keep the IRS OUT of their business.

The IRS identifies the tax evaders for the DOJ and the US Attys to prosecute.

former9thward

(31,805 posts)
34. You are an authoritarian.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:16 AM
Jun 2013

You think no one follows the law unless someone is pointing a gun at their head. Says more about you than anybody else.

 

TheDebbieDee

(11,119 posts)
38. Grow up and open your eyes. We're not living in a Utopia. People don't always
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:27 AM
Jun 2013

do things for the altruistic reasons that you project onto them.........

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
13. That's hilarious. People go to PayPal voluntarily. They pay the vig voluntarily. Why are you
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:51 PM
Jun 2013

trying to besmirch the IRS?

former9thward

(31,805 posts)
17. The poster I was replying to brought up Pay Pal.
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:55 PM
Jun 2013

Pay pal does not have the power of prison to collect money. You think they should be compared with the IRS since you rushed in to defend the poster???

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
22. And again I say that PayPal doesnt need the power of prison. I bet very few people try to stiff
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:00 AM
Jun 2013

PayPal while everyone tries to stiff the IRS.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
53. I appreciate your desperate attempts to sell the status quo but
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 09:06 AM
Jun 2013

I bet the USofA 1% has more money stashed off shore that all other countries put together.

Fascism is painless, it brings on many changes, but you cant take or leave it if you please.

former9thward

(31,805 posts)
37. Comparing other countries is always very dangerous.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:21 AM
Jun 2013

But people continue to do it because they like to pick and choose something another country is doing that they like or don't like. Greece has a long history and culture of tax evasion by all income classes. We don't. People fill out their taxes or have someone do it and in general terms follow the law. Yes there are always some who don't but they are on the margins as much as people who commit violent crime. 100% different history and culture than Greece.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
44. The many, many self-employed in the US pay
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 01:08 AM
Jun 2013

quarterly taxes. And at this time, there are so many self-employed contractors.

Further, taxes have to be collected from businesses. That's not always easy.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
2. Why should we be paying for IRS employees to stay at hotels and go to baseball games?
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:22 PM
Jun 2013

Let them take online training courses. If they need to see a presentation from someone, set up a videoconference.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
4. Perhaps because it works?
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:27 PM
Jun 2013

Employee morale is pretty important.

That's probably why Costco is prospering, while it's competitors are not:

Costco's Profit Soars To $459 Million As Low-Wage Competitors Struggle

Given that the IRS is pretty efficient...

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
5. So how many baseball games per year should every government employee attend at our expense,
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:36 PM
Jun 2013

in order to keep "employee morale" sufficiently high?

Two? Six? Ten?

Perhaps business owners who are DUers could weigh in here. Do you find the morale of your employees falling to unacceptably low levels when you don't have them attend a certain number of baseball games at your expense?

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
9. I guess it depends on how good the seats are... I'd accept nothing less than Loge, Row AA...
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:46 PM
Jun 2013

And I'd like to be on the third base side, on the right side of an aisle.

I guess my morale would be acceptable with 6-8 games if you can swing that. Oh, and throw in dinner at the Stadium Club, will ya?

dsc

(52,130 posts)
12. would monetary bonus be OK?
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:49 PM
Jun 2013

I don't know how much it costs to attend a game now but lets say it is 200. Lets further say that a typical agent makes 50k a year. That makes each game .4% of her salary. I recently did a temp job where I got a bonus for a job well done. It was a higher percent than that.

Cerridwen

(13,251 posts)
19. No longer allowed.
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:58 PM
Jun 2013

Monetary bonuses for rank-and-file government employees is restricted to the point of not-quite-non-existent.

Many supervisors try to find other ways to reward employees and teams who've gone above and beyond or who have survived the onslaught of changing regulations, policies, and work-loads.

The IRS was down 10,000 employees in 2012 from 2011. I'm pretty sure there wasn't a commensurate reduction in the work-load.

dsc

(52,130 posts)
27. well I am an average or even below average in terms of income who just got a bonus
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:04 AM
Jun 2013

and frankly I don't particularly have a problem with giving workers who perform well bonuses. I would rather pay for bonuses than for bombs.

 

MannyGoldstein

(34,589 posts)
30. Instead of hating government employees because they haven't lost the things most of us used to get
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:13 AM
Jun 2013

How about if we work together to restore decent jobs for the rest of America?

My wife is currently applying for a government job, after taking some years off to raise our son. It has excellent benefits. It also pays about 30% *less* than comparable private-sector jobs. We figure it's probably a wash in the end, compensation-wise.

Is my wife applying because it's the only job she can get? Well, she has an Ivy League degree, so I'm guessing not.

Cerridwen

(13,251 posts)
32. Why don't "average people" receive bonuses? Maybe you're asking the wrong question.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:14 AM
Jun 2013

Correction; there's no "maybe" about it.

You don't make a better world by dragging people down; you make a better world by lifting people up. You're coming at it from the crabs in a bucket angle; drag everyone else down destroying yourself in the process.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
7. Are there any RW fallacies or bad ideas that you don't approve of
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:43 PM
Jun 2013

and are anxious to repeat as often as possible?

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
20. Wow. I never realized that free baseball games and fancy hotel stays for IRS employees
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:58 PM
Jun 2013

was such a cherished progressive ideal.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
36. If one is to believe that you are what you purport yourself to be, "I never realized"
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:17 AM
Jun 2013

would be definitive.

Baseball games and hotel rooms to boot...


The horror...

I'm just guessing that the answer to the question is "no".

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
26. Well, when I want to go to a baseball game I go to Ticketmaster.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:03 AM
Jun 2013

So why should I be paying out of my taxes for IRS employees who are earning more than me and have more job security than me to go to baseball games at my expense?

blue neen

(12,308 posts)
16. IMHO, this is the real IRS scandal. In 2012 there were 1.8 million identity theft victims.
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:54 PM
Jun 2013

"Believe it or not, there is something even worse than having to prepare your tax return. It's finding out that someone else already filed a return in your name, under your Social Security number, to collect a fraudulent refund."

"And that's just the beginning of your troubles."

"At best, it takes about six months for the IRS to resolve an identity theft case. At worst? It can take more than a year. All the while, victims wait for their rightful refunds, and thieves sometimes strike again."

"Identity theft is a big and growing problem, and the crooks appear to be one step ahead of the IRS."

"Last year, the number of incidents reached 1.8 million, J. Russell George, the Treasury inspector general for tax administration, told a Senate panel this week."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/04/11/tax-returns-identity-theft-editorials-debates/2076077/

In reality, we ALL are victims. The IRS (taxpayers) are the ones who are paying for all of those fraudulent claims and the increased costs caused by the investigations.

If you have a chance, read the whole article. USA Today is not my favorite source for news, but they spell out this problem fairly well.

Thanks.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
21. Perhaps if they spent more time on stuff like this, and less on swanky "conferences",
Sun Jun 2, 2013, 11:59 PM
Jun 2013

we would all be better off.

blue neen

(12,308 posts)
25. Let's hope that is what they were addressing at the conferences.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:03 AM
Jun 2013

It's an enormous problem and not going away any time soon. It's too lucrative, and it's easy money for the thieves. They don't want to give this up.



Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
29. So in order to avoid this, all government employees should get to go to baseball games
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:13 AM
Jun 2013

and "conferences" at fancy hotels, paid for by us?

I have no problem with a fair salary, decent benefits, and job security. But let's shitcan the free sports tickets and swanky hotel stays at taxpayer expense.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
45. Yeah rank and file government workers going to conferences and
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 01:31 AM
Jun 2013

Baseball games is an outrageous use of taxpayer dollars. They should all live like monks so we can funnel all our taxpayer dollars instead to the MIC or as subsidies to big oil or finacial firms. Those conferences are really offensive..... If you're a teabagger. I'm sure they share your outrage. Are you sure you didn't get lost on your way to free republic?

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
46. Oh no. Rumbled.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 01:45 AM
Jun 2013

I guess "must approve of taxpayer-funded sports tickets and conferences for IRS employees" should be added to DU's Terms of Service.

Meanwhile, I await my banning.

abelenkpe

(9,933 posts)
48. You're only being called put for being petty
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 02:05 AM
Jun 2013

And spouting right wing talking points. Funny your need to respond to every post pointing out your right wing outrage only gives the OP more visibility. Good job!

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
55. sorry, it is an outrageous use of taxpayer dollars
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 11:16 AM
Jun 2013

I thought so when I went on them and I think so now. and shove your teabagger crap back up the hole it came from, honey.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
60. Paid vacation is actually productive.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:11 PM
Jun 2013

People need downtime, and return refreshed and ready for action. Nobody should get less than 3 weeks paid vacation, and preferably 4.

madville

(7,397 posts)
47. It's an efficient model when
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 01:55 AM
Jun 2013

You have law enforcement backing and the power to seize property and send people to prison for not paying. Most businesses would increase efficiency and profits with that model.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
50. Nah, I'm pretty sure most businesses would simply exploit that power to increase profits.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 04:41 AM
Jun 2013

As someone that spent his career as a "hired gun" for both governments, including every branch of the military, and private enterprise, I found that in general government operations are both more efficient and much more austere.

And guess where I found to be the very best run large organization? The USPS.

madville

(7,397 posts)
51. We have had opposite experiences then
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 05:06 AM
Jun 2013

It probably varies by field. I've been in the military, worked for state and federal contractors, and been a federal civilian employee. If the private contractors had run things like the military or federal models they would have been bankrupt and out of business quickly.

In my experience the private sector would have three people tasked with multiple times more work than on the government side where it would have been 10 people doing a fraction of work.

That's why I wound up back as a federal civilian employee, much less workload for a little less pay but much better benefits.

 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
63. Or perhaps we are talking about different things. The topic is, I believe, efficiency, not profits.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 01:43 PM
Jun 2013

I did the back-end information, reporting infrastructure, and financials. Government's goal is not profit but accomplishing as much as possible for as little as possible.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
58. Well, that is another utterly stupid waste of time, but I question the math.
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 11:22 AM
Jun 2013

All congresspeople would be paid their full salary regardless of whether these stupid votes had been held. So the votes did not really "cost" $55 million. I guess you could argue that Congress could have spent the time wasted with these votes doing something wonderful and productive but that's hard to do with a straight face.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
62. I don't give a flying fuck of it's 1/100 of a percent, honey. It's still real money
Mon Jun 3, 2013, 12:15 PM
Jun 2013

and these conferences are largely a bullshit waste of it.

it's pathetic that anyone would defend this kind of wasteful spending.

50 million dollars is a lot of money.

Hardwarenuts

(1 post)
65. IRS is NOT efficient!
Mon Dec 2, 2013, 09:54 PM
Dec 2013

I have to disagree.

I filed a Amended Tax Return and was due a refund. My tax preparer made a mistake.

The refund should have been sent out in 12 weeks. What efficient business takes twelve weeks to process a refund?

I now have been waiting 28 weeks!

When you call, your on hold for 40 minutes. What other efficient business puts callers on hold for 40 minutes.

They do what they want, because they DO NOT have to be accountable.

It's a good thing other businesses are not as inefficient as the IRS.

Bmore84

(2 posts)
66. Clearly a boot licker
Mon Nov 10, 2014, 01:40 PM
Nov 2014

The IRS is the only debt collection service that is backed up by a monopoly of violence, so what do they possibly need to attend $50 million worth of conferences for? They can literally destroy someone's life over or take their freedom simply for failure to pay a bill, even if the person was unaware of it several years down the road. The way I see it there is no benefit to having anyone from the IRS attend any conference, let alone $50 million dollars worth of conferences.

They are only "efficient" because they have a fearful reputation that allows them to do very little on their end to collect on debt owed. Your comparison between the and a private business is pretty laughable.

Keep licking those boots, believing it is a patriotic duty to pay more taxes and hopefully with any luck the IRS can attend $100 million ore in conferences... on something that is clearly money well spent.

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