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Sun May 5, 2013, 05:37 PM

Left wing libertarians.

I know, anybody mentions the L word and immediately Ron Paul comes to mind. Trust me, there are left wing Libertarians. I know one in the flesh and a few post here. The one I know in the flesh has no issue in admiring it. Heck, the word revolution comes out often.

What I find amazing is the contradictions in the political ideology. It s all also about the individual, but agrees with union rights, and higher minimum wage...and home schooling cause the schools are not teaching nothing.

It is amazing, but a window to a different way of thinking

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Reply Left wing libertarians. (Original post)
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 OP
LostOne4Ever May 2013 #1
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #2
fredamae May 2013 #3
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #4
Ichingcarpenter May 2013 #13
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #14
fredamae May 2013 #15
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #17
fredamae May 2013 #23
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #24
fredamae May 2013 #76
earthside May 2013 #51
Scootaloo May 2013 #78
TheKentuckian May 2013 #7
PD Turk May 2013 #57
LAGC May 2013 #5
LWolf May 2013 #31
TheKentuckian May 2013 #6
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #8
joshcryer May 2013 #9
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #11
sad-cafe May 2013 #10
Brother Buzz May 2013 #26
Electric Monk May 2013 #50
Brother Buzz May 2013 #61
Electric Monk May 2013 #63
ljm2002 May 2013 #40
LWolf May 2013 #12
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #16
truebluegreen May 2013 #20
LWolf May 2013 #29
truebluegreen May 2013 #32
LWolf May 2013 #34
fredamae May 2013 #25
truebluegreen May 2013 #33
fredamae May 2013 #80
LuvNewcastle May 2013 #27
LWolf May 2013 #28
truebluegreen May 2013 #36
LWolf May 2013 #37
truebluegreen May 2013 #38
LostOne4Ever May 2013 #39
LWolf May 2013 #74
WorseBeforeBetter May 2013 #54
Mnpaul May 2013 #77
Dash87 May 2013 #82
graham4anything May 2013 #18
LAGC May 2013 #19
davidn3600 May 2013 #21
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #22
DonCoquixote May 2013 #30
davidn3600 May 2013 #45
Gravitycollapse May 2013 #41
LeftInTX May 2013 #35
davidn3600 May 2013 #47
truebluegreen May 2013 #42
Honeycombe8 May 2013 #43
Warren Stupidity May 2013 #44
Buzz Clik May 2013 #46
Warren Stupidity May 2013 #48
Buzz Clik May 2013 #49
Bjorn Against May 2013 #52
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #53
Bjorn Against May 2013 #55
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #59
ozone_man May 2013 #66
graham4anything May 2013 #70
Bjorn Against May 2013 #73
LostOne4Ever May 2013 #71
Bjorn Against May 2013 #72
HughBeaumont May 2013 #75
fredamae May 2013 #81
Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #56
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #58
Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #62
nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #64
pnwmom May 2013 #60
jeff47 May 2013 #65
pnwmom May 2013 #68
jeff47 May 2013 #83
pnwmom May 2013 #84
jeff47 May 2013 #85
napoleon_in_rags May 2013 #67
RedCappedBandit May 2013 #69
Puzzledtraveller May 2013 #79
Xithras May 2013 #86

Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 05:45 PM

1. Wouldn't a left wing Libertarian

Wouldn't a left wing Libertarian pretty much be a normal liberal?

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #1)

Sun May 5, 2013, 05:47 PM

2. Nope not at all

On the bright side this is why the Libertarians will never get power in a major way.

Liberals are about us, libertarians are about me and I.

Another major difference, a liberal sees government as useful, libertarians mostly fear it

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #2)

Sun May 5, 2013, 05:52 PM

3. Then what is a Left Wing Libertarian?

Sorry if I missed something but---the very term caused a moment of confusion

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Response to fredamae (Reply #3)

Sun May 5, 2013, 05:55 PM

4. These folks do believe in things

Like the ACA, limited, and higher minimum wage. Their RW counterparts reject those two, for example.

Realize, liberals (classic) Conservative and Libertarian thought (again in the classic sense) come from the same ideological source in the 18th century

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #4)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:11 PM

13. They are Confused Anarchist

but don't realize it which I think you might be trying to describe

They are not well read on political science. or world history, or literature.

Tolstoy was not on their reading list.


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Response to Ichingcarpenter (Reply #13)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:12 PM

14. No, they are not anarchists

Though I would say this applies to a few extreme RW fanatics who hate all government. (Norquist is that you?)

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #4)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:17 PM

15. Thank you, you just

answered a lot of ques I've had---I've seen some "libertarian left-wingers" that support Cannabis legalization...and was confused by the difference in profile of how I believed "all" libertarians are.
In trying to decifer what's going on with-in my own, I tend to "ignore" other political groups-too much.
And I've gotta think about the "classical ideologies" reference--I don't doubt that at all, the thought simply never occurred to me before. Again, thanks.

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Response to fredamae (Reply #15)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:21 PM

17. You welcome

We are at a dangerous political moment where a lot of the classical references no longer apply. I mean my RW extremists in many ways are or have morphed into Anarchist radicals.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #17)

Sun May 5, 2013, 07:13 PM

23. For me? It's so very

surreal.
And scary.

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Response to fredamae (Reply #23)

Sun May 5, 2013, 07:15 PM

24. The Chinese curse comes to mind

We are living it. "May you live in interesting times."

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #24)

Mon May 6, 2013, 08:50 AM

76. We are indeed n/t

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #4)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:02 PM

51. Libertarian Socialism-Chomsky

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Response to fredamae (Reply #3)

Mon May 6, 2013, 09:05 AM

78. A liberal with a severe case of narcissism.

You get two kinds.

One is the guy who believes all the exact same things you and every other liberal you know does. But he's a total hipster about it; he was into it before it went mainstream, and will insist he achieves his liberalism through deep philosophical rumination - while of course, you are a mere wheedling prole grubbing for your own meager self-interest.

The other, is the guy who's your average liberal (Again!) but strives to misrepresent mainstream liberalism ("Most liberals support draconian drug policy!" is the common phrase) in order to make his own positions look unique and special.

Both are annoying and tend to have the personality of wet rice cakes, but lack the capacity for dangerous action and politics evident among actual libertarians. Just roll your eyes and don't ever agree to give them a ride that involves more than three traffic lights (because goddamn, do you want to hear them rant about seatbelt laws again?!) and you'll be fine.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #2)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:04 PM

7. Government is a tool, it can be horrible or beneficial for the people.

Democrats shouldn't respond to the TeaPubliKlan anti-government nonsense with being simply pro-government but rather being pro-good governance.

Just being blindly in favor of government is as ridiculous as the opposite.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #1)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:27 PM

57. not necessarily

Hang around a while and you'll catch a glimpse of some left wing authoritarians right here on this site.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 05:58 PM

5. Left-libertarians always get a bad rap because of the Libertarian Party.

Only in America is there this notion that right-wing economics ("economic freedom") is somehow as important as personal/social freedoms are.

While there are definitely many perks and advantages of a market economy, this laissez-faire "corporations-can-do-no-wrong" shtick, is a real aberration and perversion of historical libertarian thought. There's nothing inherently incompatible between promoting civil liberties and equality -- the ACLU proves that every day.

Now, I will admit that I have voted for a few Libertarians before, but only as a protest vote because either there was no Democratic candidate running for a local seat, or the Democrat had no chance in hell of winning anyway, so I just wanted to register a "protest" vote. But their economic agenda is bat-shit crazy -- Ayn Rand on steroids.

Of course, conservatives embrace all the bad parts of Libertarianism, and discard all the rest. Then claim to be for individual rights, but that's only code-word for: white Christian male privilege.

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Response to LAGC (Reply #5)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:04 PM

31. All politics in the U.S. gets skewed

because of party propaganda and misconceptions about party.

People still, somehow, believe the Democratic Party is "liberal," and some even think Obama is a socialist.

That "economic freedom" thing is neo-liberalism, and it's part and parcel with the mainstream Democratic Party.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 05:59 PM

6. What is the contradiction? Without economic power the individual has little power or

self determination? Individuals on average have little to no economic power when the gravity is vested into the corporate few.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #6)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:06 PM

8. Then we go for the extreme of Ayn Rand

And that is the problem.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:08 PM

9. There are collectivist left-libertarians, too, yaknow.

It comes from a democratic tendency which is admittedly individualist.

However, I've been noticing that left-libertarianism has been infiltrated with left-authoritarianism in the past few years online. It used to be that left-libertarianism was infiltrated by right-authoritarianism (Libertarianism), but the left-libertarians online have been sufficiently good at shutting down that idiocy.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #9)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:10 PM

11. I know

And I think it's high time Liberals know these folks exist. They can be allies. At times, more often than not, they are. (And in some respects that also applies to the RW variety, on civil rights)

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:09 PM

10. do you just type every thought that comes into your mind?

 

really, what is the discussion you wish to get from this?

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Response to sad-cafe (Reply #10)

Sun May 5, 2013, 07:37 PM

26. Gets boring sitting in a coffee house hoping for a long day of traffic collisions and medical aids


"hope I get a long day of traffic collisions, and medical aids"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022711717

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #26)

Sun May 5, 2013, 10:46 PM

50. The way I read that was *instead* of getting fire calls, given the context of the first line.

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Response to Electric Monk (Reply #50)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:50 PM

61. I guess hopping for a day when nothing crappy happens is to much to ask for

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Response to Brother Buzz (Reply #61)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:55 PM

63. I suspect that if she did then you and sad-cafe would simply accuse her of being lazy, instead. nt

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Response to sad-cafe (Reply #10)

Sun May 5, 2013, 09:04 PM

40. If you don't like the poster, ...

...you could just put her on ignore, ya know. Otherwise, why on earth would you object to someone talking about current political philosophies and groups, on a political discussion board??

Seriously, what is your objection? What did you wish to get from this response?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:10 PM

12. I'm a left-wing libertarian.

Economic Left/Right: -8.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.08

http://www.politicalcompass.org/charts/us2012.php

I've always found this compass to be reliable.



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Response to LWolf (Reply #12)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:19 PM

16. Yup, it is

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Response to LWolf (Reply #12)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:53 PM

20. +1000

Separating the economic issues (classic left/communism v right/free market division) from the social (authoritarian v libertarian) helps clear up a lot of confusion, and can be a real eye opener.

I've directed a lot of people to that site and when they've gotten their results to a man they found they were far more economically liberal and libertarian than their candidates. My Alabama Republican BIL found himself in Kucinich range....

Of course, the true believing righties just claimed the test was off. That's what happens when you believe labels more than actual attitudes.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #20)

Sun May 5, 2013, 07:59 PM

29. One of the things I like about this compass

is that they base it on record rather than speeches. That makes it, for me, more authentic.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #29)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:05 PM

32. I agree completely.

Which was why is was disheartening but not surprising to see the difference between Candidate Obama's position in 2008 and President Obama's in 2012.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #32)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:12 PM

34. Yes.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #12)

Sun May 5, 2013, 07:18 PM

25. That was fun

Obama is 6.0/6.0 Romey 7.0/6.5
Me: -7.4/-5.3
Wow. Jill Stein is -3.0/-3.0
To imagine 40 years ago I was accused of being "too republican" to be a Dem. I don't believe I've changed-I've grown, but my core hasn't changed much (I don't think)-but my party sure did.

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Response to fredamae (Reply #25)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:11 PM

33. One thing I've always wished for on that site

was the presence of past political figures like Eisenhower, Nixon, both Roosevelts but especially FDR, etc. Having those figures for comparison would be very helpful.

Unfortunately, the site is a non-profit from the U.K. so it's not likely to happen.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #33)

Mon May 6, 2013, 09:12 AM

80. This basically affirms

what I've mused in the past--We have more in common with our "friends across the aisle" out here on main-street than not.
There are a lot of problems with lots of different solutions and a lot of people who care.
This is Not insurmountable. However we must first recognize that 90% of the "barriers" we are focused on and obsessed with are manufactured-not natural and organic to human nature. When we understand this one small but mighty influence? I believe our relationships are likely to improve.
Yes--our "majesties and court jesters" in DC are doing their best to keep us very polarized. There is no other way, imo to pull off the bs they do now And get away with it. Not enough folks are "calling bs" on the games they play inside the "Big Top".
At least---imo

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Response to LWolf (Reply #12)

Sun May 5, 2013, 07:53 PM

27. I guess I am too, because my numbers are pretty close to yours.


Economic: -8.38
Social: -7.44

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #27)

Sun May 5, 2013, 07:58 PM

28. In past years,

most DUers fell into that quadrant, if not as far as I do.

Democratic politicians are not aligned with their voters.

At some point, someone will counter with a U.S. specific grid that defines politics in narrow U.S. terms, and then Democrats will look closer to those they vote for.

That's the usual DU response to the political compass, at least.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #28)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:39 PM

36. But the funny thing is, in my experience, the righties aren't aligned with their voters either.

Every righty I've talked into taking this test, including the most diehard / authoritarian / evangelist / free-marketer / birther / gun-nut / racist Alabamian (actually named Bubba) I've ever encountered (luvved him some Sarah Palin), didn't test out anywhere near Republican leaders.

Even Bubba proudly reported himself as right in the crosshairs, a moderate in all things. When I pointed out that that put him to the left of almost all the Democratic candidates (this in 2008) he shrugged it off as a bad test (while still being proud of his own moderate, middle-of-the-road status)(naturally ). Unbelievable.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #36)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:42 PM

37. The majority of American voters

are willing to drink kool aid.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #37)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:51 PM

38. Very true .

Lord Dog, what does it take to open their eyes if even answering questions truthfully, without the "benefit" of labels, and then seeing the results can't pry them from their loyalties?

This is exactly why the pukes push home schooling, attack public education (including colluding to put higher education out of reach) and fill the airwaves with propaganda.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #12)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:56 PM

39. D=

I have gone down below a -9 since the last time I took this test

But i have moved more leftward economically:

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-7.88&soc=-8.51

Last time had me a little over a -5.

A friend of mine a while back took this test and felt it did not correctly define liberalism and conservatism. He sent me this saying it does a better job explaining the difference. It was an interesting read and criticism of the compass but I feel the compass is still better at defining things quickly for laymen.

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/redefining_the_political_spectru.htm

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #39)

Mon May 6, 2013, 08:35 AM

74. I think it depends

on how you define liberalism and conservatism; this compass doesn't really attempt to do that, but to frame political positions beyond those labels. That's one of the reasons that I like it.

I notice that, on the "rational spectrum," I fall in the same place I do on the compass; socially and economically left. That has a different meaning, though, since it would make me more authoritarian, which I'm not. So it's not really accurate for me. The very point the author disputes is what makes the compass more accurate, and his spectrum less. At least for me.



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Response to LWolf (Reply #12)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:22 PM

54. So am I.

And, somehow, I manage to sleep at night.

Economic Left/Right: -7.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87

http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-7.75&soc=-4.87

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Response to LWolf (Reply #12)

Mon May 6, 2013, 08:54 AM

77. Everyone wants to think binary here

Instead of thinking in degrees. There are left leaning libertarians and right wing libertarians. The political compass demonstrates this well.

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Response to LWolf (Reply #12)

Mon May 6, 2013, 10:15 AM

82. As am I. I also have a strong disliking of Ron Paul.

I hate guns, but think that everyone should be allowed to own them.

I favor heavy corporate regulation, which I think actually leads to more prosperity and freedom.

I'm against war in the Middle East, and think 9/11 should have been handled by the FBI and limited military operations.

I think Alex Jones is a fraud and a money-grabber who exploits his idiot audience in the same way Ann Coulter does. His audience are a bunch of anti-Semitic nutjobs.

My views aren't even close to Anarchism, as some said on this thread. I think government is absolutely necessary to keep our liberties and way of life.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:29 PM

18. More and more since I first said it, it is an 80-20 world with the extreme fringe being 20

 

and the 20 being 10-15 republican, but 5-10 saying they are democratic

there is a big difference between the republican group in that they tend to vote for the rpeublican candidate for top office
whereas the democratic fringe NOT voting for the democratic candidate, but voting 3rd party and/or for the republican and then blaming the democratic people in office for 100% of lifes problems to them

It is getting more dangerous than any period in American history.

and probably the vast majority of the guns can be found in those 20%, and then they use the gun issue to get others on their side (much like Ron and Rand Paul and David Duke recruit people by using a sliver of an issue to corral them into their cult) and they use every single anti-government conspiracy theory to foister their extreme views and hatred

imho

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #18)

Sun May 5, 2013, 06:29 PM

19. Don't worry -- no one will ever mistake you for a libertarian.

Ever.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 07:05 PM

21. Thomas Jefferson would be considered a left-wing libertarian

He was a liberal in his thinking especially for his time, but he didn't believe that man's best accomplishments came from the government. He believed government provides order and infrastructure. But innovation and movement of society occurs from within the individuals of the community. Jefferson today would be appalled at the authoritarianism of both modern parties.

Left-libertarianism is sort of the direct opposition of what we have today which is somewhat right authoritarianism. Even on the global scale, Obama would be considered slightly right wing. And there is no question the US government is authoritarian. Practically every person outside America will tell you that America is authoritarian today. We have the largest prison population in the world. Our laws are somewhat socially restrictive. Our military is stretched all across the world and we try very hard to be the world's policeman. It is what it is...we are an authoritarian government.

The Democratic party is a centrist party that includes some people of the left-wing. But the party always tends to drift to the right when it is in power. Left authoritarians would be considered communists/socialists. Left-libertarianism is frequently mistaken for anarchism. But all libertarians admit that there needs to be some government to provide order, planning, and infrastructure. So that's not a fair comparison.

What's interesting is the left and right libertarians have more in common with each other than they realize. Many of the OWS protesters would get along quite well with the Ron Paul crowd. In fact Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul frequently teamed up in Congress.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #21)

Sun May 5, 2013, 07:08 PM

22. Very correct.

And I am glad you know this.

That is because classical liberalism has a lot in common with the classic forms of libertarianism.



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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #21)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:02 PM

30. and Thomas himself is an example of why libertarianism is a failure.

Let us not forget, Thomas Jefferson, great poet of the Declaration of Independence, was a SLAVE OWNER.

Let us not forget, Thomas Jefferson owned a SEX SLAVE, a 14 year old named Sally Hemmings. That would get on on a sex offender list today.

The problem with even left leaning libertarianism is that it stops the government from putting the rich and powerful in check, and even the most benevolent of said rich and powerful can and will do atrocities if they do not fear us the agent of the masses, which is, the state. As is, America has let the rich corrupt us to where we cannot even make them pay taxes.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #30)

Sun May 5, 2013, 09:46 PM

45. Actually Jefferson wanted to go further with the declaration, but was overruled

In one of his first drafts, Jefferson attacked the slave trade. But a few colonies, Georgia in particular, didn't like the anti-slavery language. And the Continental Congress, which at the time was most concerned about unity, ultimately cut the slavery language out of the document. The hypocrisy concerning slavery is deeply rooted from the time of the revolution throughout the civil war. A lot of politicians flip flopped for their own political gains. Its a complex era of American history.

As for the authoritarian government needed to keep the rich in check....that may appear true. However, we have yet to discover a way to do this without it also indirectly hurting the poor. And even if we did figure out a way, it would be extremely difficult to implement considering the rich and powerful will want to stay rich and powerful.

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Response to davidn3600 (Reply #21)

Sun May 5, 2013, 09:06 PM

41. Thomas Jefferson was a slave owning rapist.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 08:13 PM

35. Chart with more politicians:



I scored somewhere between Alexis Tsipras and the Dalai Lama. Actually economically I'm left of Hugo Chavez.

WTH!!!

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Response to LeftInTX (Reply #35)

Sun May 5, 2013, 09:47 PM

47. Notice where Barack Obama is on that chart

So much for the right-wing crap that he's a Marxist.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 09:10 PM

42. If you are defining "left-wing libertarians"

the way Political Compass does, darn near everybody I know is one, including my Alabama Republican BIL.

Would that they all knew it.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 09:12 PM

43. What you describe is not libertarianism. nt

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 09:12 PM

44. I'm a left wing libertarian, as are all traditional anarchists.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #44)

Sun May 5, 2013, 09:46 PM

46. Hm. That explains much.

Philosophically, I am at the tumultuous intersection of progressive and libertarian. I generally don't trust anyone and despise those in positions of authority. I really dislike those who feel they deserve respect simply for occupying a position of power.

Most true libertarians (regardless of whether they are of the leftwing or rightwing variety) are fiercely independent and clash easily, even with those closest to them philosophically. I'm thinking this explains why half the time I think you're on target and half the time you're full of shit. I think it also explains why, despite some of our spectacular clashes, you have yet to put me on ignore.

I like you better already. And despise you a little more.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #46)

Sun May 5, 2013, 09:58 PM

48. Ignore is for idiots and weaklings.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #48)

Sun May 5, 2013, 10:01 PM

49. Agreed!

I use it as a temporary fix when some obsessed child follows me from thread to thread, but I remove the ignore within 24 hours.

However, not all agree.

My profile tells me I am being proudly ignored by 53 star members of DU.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:16 PM

52. The majority of people on this site are left wing libertarians even if they don't realize it

The right-wing has fooled a lot of people into believing the word "libertarian" describes an Ayn Rand style corporate free for all, but the word actually has nothing to do with economics. If you go to Europe where they actually use the word correctly most of the people who call themselves libertarians are on the left. If you believe in strong free speech protections, don't like government spying on its citizens, oppose the war on drugs, support civil rights, you are probably a libertarian if you go by the true definition of the word.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #52)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:20 PM

53. I would not say the majority

But a good percentage. And another is the FDR democrat contingent, and then we have the DLC and otherwise centrists types.

Then there is the smattering of social democrats like myself, and Greens.

But you are very correct in your observation

It would b a good thesis project to do a self identification, versus real ideology for posters.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #53)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:26 PM

55. At the very least I think this site was majority libertarian during the Bush Administration

The site has gotten less libertarian leaning since Obama's election, but there is still a strong libertarian presence on this site. Most of those libertarians would never call themselves such a word just because of the bad rap the word has, but going by the true definition of the word libertarian is honorable. People just need to realize that it has nothing to do with Ayn Rand economics, those who want strong civil rights protections are quite often libertarians.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #55)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:31 PM

59. There s that

And many of the FDR contingent have also left the building

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #55)

Mon May 6, 2013, 12:41 AM

66. Noam Chomsky

He's a good example of a left wing libertarian. Yes, there are many of us that lurk here.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #52)

Mon May 6, 2013, 03:40 AM

70. but we are NOT in Europe, we are here, and Ron Paul libertarians in US are 100% racists.

 

as such, they want ZERO civil rights for anyone but the exact people racist Thomas Jefferson who kept and abused slaves he owned said.

USA libertarians believe you can yell fire in a theatre, make threats at airports and want to know what one is doing in their bedroom, and want the right to film what they want but not themselves.

what difference does it make if one says what is in Europe, when to the USA libertarians,
we are NOT France and in fact, France is put down by 100% of all libertarians here and republicans and probably I would venture most anti-Obama people.

The same ones that seem to idolize Eisenhower and make fun of Adlai Stevenson(or would have). (The anti-Egghead crowd).

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #70)

Mon May 6, 2013, 07:37 AM

73. Don't let the right-wing hijack our language

The word means the same here as it does in Europe, the only reason people think it means different is because the right-wing has hijacked the language in this country. Just because the majority of people think it means something different does not mean it actually does mean something different.

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Response to Bjorn Against (Reply #52)

Mon May 6, 2013, 04:01 AM

71. So does this make me a left-libertarian?

Sorry im still a bit confused. Would I be a left-libertarian?

When it comes to politics im the most passionate on social issues. Im EXTREMELY pro-choice, pro-gay right, pro-free speech, pro-civil rights, pro-privacy rights, pro-legalization of marijuana, pro-separation of church and state, etc. To put it simply the ACLU is my favorite political group and epitomizes my views. While I recognize they are important, im just not as passionate on economic issues.

I tend to view issues in the manner of balancing individual rights one person against individual rights of another, or against the rights and needs of society. Generally, I see it as your right to your fist ends at my nose type of deal. In my mind, individual rights usually outweigh the wants and desires of society, but feel that occasionally the needs of society can outweigh the rights of the individual (public health concerns for instance).

I rejected the Libertarian party years ago as I support social programs that help the poor and the disadvantaged, support universal health care, a living wage, support clean air and a health environment, and generally thought of myself as left wing on these issue. I hate how the Libertarian party want to privatize everything even including the air we breath, are willing to allow things like racial discrimination due to their ideology, and I also despise how they are willing to allow states to implement any authoritarian Bullshit in the name of state rights.

Does this make me a left-libertarian or a modern liberal? Im a bit confused and you, nadinbrzezinski, Lwolf, and napoleon_in_rags all seem to understand this better than I do.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #71)

Mon May 6, 2013, 07:31 AM

72. Yes, you sound like a left leaning libertarian to me.

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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #71)

Mon May 6, 2013, 08:48 AM

75. Everything in that 3rd paragraph describes either a "Denial-ican" or an "Apostle" . . .

. . . which most right-leaning Libertarians are.



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Response to LostOne4Ever (Reply #71)

Mon May 6, 2013, 09:37 AM

81. I'm with you

Injecting the term "Libertarian" into My "self"--scrambled my thinking--(which is a great exercise in and of itself.)

Help! I've awakend and found myself going thru "Political Puberty"
My beliefs aren't changing but how I view others and how I see "me" is definitely expanding.
Thank you nadinbrzezinski (and everyone) for this thread--for me--it's been personally insightful.
(I still can't believe I'm "left" of Dr. Stein)

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:27 PM

56. Terms such as left libertarian, libertarian, liberal, progressive, conservative, socialist...

are poorly understood by most of those who claim they are one of the above, or any of the other ...arians or ...ists or ...ives.

In a living culture definitions change. Todays libertarian, capitalist, liberal, progressive or what ever are not yesterdays or last years or 1940's..

Libertarians think nothing of allowing one of the states (say Texas) to toss gays in jail for having sex but champion letting out everyone that ever went to prison for smoking a joint. Left Libertarians, except for a few like Chomsky who have enough education to know where they came from and where they are going have a set of ideas and beliefs that put them on the left side of the spectrum, and some others that keep them out of that spectrum.

I've begun to think that political affiliation isn't a definite thing. It is, rather, a current in which we drift that has eddies, cross currents, tides, and whirlpools.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #56)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:30 PM

58. The definitions have meanings

Even if people are clueless what they mean.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #58)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:55 PM

62. Yes, but most peole don't know they are clueless...

Those of us that find definitions important have to run to keep up with the changes.

Thos who don't know they are clueless most often think they know everything.

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Response to Agnosticsherbet (Reply #62)

Mon May 6, 2013, 12:02 AM

64. I still prefer to start from the definition and go from there

After all, with actual definitions we know the tea party crowd are not libertarians, they are not conservative...they are radicals. In a few cases they are RW anarchists.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Sun May 5, 2013, 11:36 PM

60. It really is a contradiction in terms, because the economic side of Libertarianism

isn't compatible with progressive beliefs.

They may consider themselves leftist but they're really not. The economic policies overshadow everything else.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #60)

Mon May 6, 2013, 12:07 AM

65. Economic and social policies are two different things

Just take a look at the current Republican party: They're "get government out of everything.....except the bedroom!"

That's libertarian economics, but definitely not "libertarian" social policies.

Most left-libertarians want government out of business except to support their social policies. For example, they want a 40 hour work week, but they don't want the government tell companies what to do in those 40 hours. This contrasts with, say, communism, where the government is involved in both.

The people who scream "I'm a libertarian!!" the loudest in the US are Randians. But that doesn't mean they encompass the entire range of "libertarian".

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #65)

Mon May 6, 2013, 02:53 AM

68. The way I look at it, there are two flavors of free-market libertarians.

They have the same basic economic philosophy -- very limited government and survival of the fittest -- but different social views.

The ones that call themselves Libertarians (with a capital L) and consider themselves leftists believe that limited government should extend to social issues, so they are pro-gay rights and pro-choice.

The ones that call themselves Republican or tea party believe in limited government EXCEPT with regard to social issues.

But the cornerstone of both groups is their low-regulation/survival-of-the-fittest economic philosophy, which means neither group is really leftist or progressive.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #68)

Mon May 6, 2013, 10:24 AM

83. There's a range of views on both axes

Just like there's a range of views on the social axis, there's a range of views on the libertarian-authoritarian axis.

It seems you're not quite realizing what the authoritarian end of that axis is. It's not "free market" vs "some regulation". It's "free market" vs "absolute government control". It's not Rand Paul vs. FDR. It's Rand Paul vs. Stalin. "Some regulation" is in the middle of that axis.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #83)

Mon May 6, 2013, 12:33 PM

84. Are you saying that there are people calling themselves libertarian

on the Stalin axis?

Because I'm only talking about libertarians.

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Response to pnwmom (Reply #84)

Mon May 6, 2013, 01:13 PM

85. Libertarian is one end of the axis. Stalin is on the opposite end of that axis. (nt)

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon May 6, 2013, 02:44 AM

67. 4 letters: A-C-L-U.

ACLU supporters are called "civil libertarians", because they argue against government intrusions that subvert civil liberties. Groups constantly knocked by Fox and the right fo being too liberal, such as the American CIVIL LIBERTIES union, are the heart of the libertarian left. That's the real picture of the libertarian left.

Libertarian just refers to SOME issue you want the issue out of. Take one issue, which has had laws on the books in many conservative states for a long time - laws against heterosexual sodomy/gay sex. Is it the law of state or federal government to put cameras in people's rooms and monitor how they are having sex? Or is that an overreach of government? If you agree with the latter, you are a little bit of a libertarian on that issue.

PEace

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon May 6, 2013, 03:09 AM

69. IIRC, Zinn identified as a 'social libertarian'

in 'A Power Governments Cannot Suppress'. Something of a meeting between libertarian and socialist ideology. Threw me off at first, made perfect sense.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon May 6, 2013, 09:06 AM

79. I described myself as such to my girlfriend

She had no problem understanding it. She is more progressive but could see where my focus on individual liberty married well with classic liberal values. There's far too many people who call themselves progressive or liberal that are too comfortable with nanny-statism for example.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)

Mon May 6, 2013, 01:25 PM

86. There's a difference between social and economic libertarians.

Last edited Mon May 6, 2013, 02:11 PM - Edit history (1)

Some people are both, but most libertarians fall into one camp or the other. I consider myself a social libertarian. I support the repeal of all laws punishing people for acts that do not cause direct harm to others. The idea that an individuals right to live their lives as they choose should be limited due to societal "morality" or "good" is offensive to me. While this position covers a LOT of laws, it generally means that I support everything from the full decriminalization of drugs, to the removal of prohibitions against gay marriage, and even to less popular subjects such as the legalization of polygamy (assuming that everyone is a willing adult partner).

Economic libertarians are a completely different beast, and want the repeal of all laws that regulate business, provide for the general welfare, or support anything they view as "socialist". While there are a die hard few who fall into both camps, you'll generally find that economic libertarians and social libertarians don't get along all that well.

As to the points in your post:

"It s all also about the individual" - Generally true.

"but agrees with union rights" - Of course. Individuals have the right to organize themselves into a collective. To deny them that ability would be to deny an individual right. Collective rights are merely the social expression of individual rights.

"and higher minimum wage" - Social libertarians do not oppose government intervention to raise wages and accomplish other social goals, so long as those goals do not destroy the rights of the individual. In fact, the ability of the free electorate to impose economic policy is a cornerstone to a free and democratic libertarian society.

"and home schooling" - Once again, individual rights. In this case, the right of parents to raise their children as they see fit. So long as the parents aren't doing harm, society has no right to interfere with their personal lives and beliefs.

"cause the schools are not teaching nothing." - Personal opinion of the nitwit you were talking to. The opinions of libertarians as to the efficacy of our public school system are as varied as the opinions of the population at large.

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