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Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:19 AM

President Obama was going to piss off somebody...he chose the Catholic Church. Good on 'im.

I was listening to a discussion on Chucky Toad's show this morning, and the point was brought up that the administration knew SOMEONE was going to be pissed off about his health care plan. They had to make a choice; piss of the Catholic Church (their spokesman whined about how oppressed the felt -- all I could think of was Monty Python, "Look, he's oppressing me!"), or upset women. Obama decided to side with the women of America instead of the tax-exempt church with so many problems of its own.

I think he should be applauded for that decision. As a reformed Catholic, I am disgusted at their whining, their bigotry, their child molestation...just about everything about the Catholic Church. But I still like women. Women's health should NOT be a bargaining chip, and the Catholic Church should remain a church, not a political organization. If they want to get involved in politics, let them give up their tax-exempt status and play on the same field as everybody else. Otherwise, I say STFU.

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Reply President Obama was going to piss off somebody...he chose the Catholic Church. Good on 'im. (Original post)
Atman Feb 2012 OP
KansDem Feb 2012 #1
ZombieHorde Feb 2012 #15
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2012 #2
Atman Feb 2012 #3
former9thward Feb 2012 #5
Atman Feb 2012 #6
former9thward Feb 2012 #16
karynnj Feb 2012 #19
former9thward Feb 2012 #23
karynnj Feb 2012 #26
Spazito Feb 2012 #28
adigal Feb 2012 #25
RainDog Feb 2012 #30
former9thward Feb 2012 #36
GreenStormCloud Feb 2012 #42
karynnj Feb 2012 #29
Amaril Feb 2012 #40
TwilightGardener Feb 2012 #4
Atman Feb 2012 #8
Epiphany4z Feb 2012 #7
Skidmore Feb 2012 #9
monmouth Feb 2012 #10
limpyhobbler Feb 2012 #11
qb Feb 2012 #12
Spazito Feb 2012 #13
Johonny Feb 2012 #31
Spazito Feb 2012 #35
rurallib Feb 2012 #14
msanthrope Feb 2012 #17
MineralMan Feb 2012 #18
msanthrope Feb 2012 #20
MineralMan Feb 2012 #27
msanthrope Feb 2012 #32
MineralMan Feb 2012 #33
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2012 #37
MineralMan Feb 2012 #38
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2012 #39
MineralMan Feb 2012 #41
Dawson Leery Feb 2012 #21
Arugula Latte Feb 2012 #22
Broderick Feb 2012 #24
Arugula Latte Feb 2012 #34

Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:30 AM

1. One would think their pedophile priests scandal and cover-up would have humbled them

Apparently not...

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Response to KansDem (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:24 PM

15. The would require the ability to feel shame. nt

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:31 AM

2. politically risky however

Lets see how it pans out.

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:34 AM

3. 23.9% of Americans are Catholic. What percentage are WOMEN?

It's only politically risky if they allow the debate to be framed by the Corporate Media.

.

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Response to Atman (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:39 AM

5. You are wrong.

Obama won the Catholic vote 56-44 in the last election. Catholics are concentrated in the battleground states. If he loses the Catholic vote he will lose those states and the election.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:46 AM

6. Well, actually I'm not wrong.

You may not be either. I simply stated a fact...23.9% of Americans are Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States). Over 50% are women. How am I wrong?

.

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Response to Atman (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:28 PM

16. You seem to dismiss the Catholic vote because it is just 23.9%

Maybe I am reading your post wrong. The fact that 50+% are women I don't think matters. People of faith usually put that first over personal conveniences. Catholics are concentrated in Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania which will all be battleground states this election.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:43 PM

19. If NJ is a battleground state, we have lost

The fact is that NJ went for Kerry in 2004, when abortion was the Church's main issue. This is birth control. If the church could not get a win, in the wake of 911 - when both abortion and gay marriage were used against a religious Catholic, I don't see it now.

I grew up Catholic in the midwest. My mom told us that when she was in college in the 1940s she horrified her Catholic friends by arguing that birth control should be ok - and that to argue that the woman should not have that choice doubts the power of God. After all, if God really really wanted someone to be pregnant, couldn't he make birth control fail? She told us this as the mother of nine kids - she wanted a big family. Most of those friends had about 3 - evenly spaced.

The Catholic church lost the issue of birth control back in the early 1960s - or likely earlier in reality. Catholics may be 23.9% of the population, but there are many of them who have no problem with birth control. Not to mention, in the entire population, it is likely that the Republicans are the ones who will have a problem if they start treating birth control like abortion. Abortion is not far from 50%, but the support of birth control is very high.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:54 PM

23. I think you are framing the issue wrong.

It is not whether Catholics practice forms of birth control or not. The issue is whether Catholic institutions should be forced by the government to offer it to employees. And it is not limited to Catholics. In my area (Phoenix) Islamic leaders have been denouncing the policy in mosques.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:00 PM

26. I think it is a trumped up issue

The employer is not the direct contact that pays for healthcare - they buy a policy from an insurance company.

What about Christian Scientists who do not believe in medicine or surgery - at least not as a first resort? In their case, can they not provide any health care - other than prayer?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #23)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:03 PM

28. Just because birth control is offered...

doesn't force anyone to take it. The Catholic hierarchy obviously doesn't 'trust' women to act on their 'right of conscience' and not take up the 'offer' if they believe as the hierarchy does that birth control is bad. As usual, the Catholic hierarchy underestimates women and continues to treat them as second-class citizens just as they have the children abused by their priests.

Catholics are leaving the church in droves and for good reason, imo. Soon, the only ones left will be of the Opus Dei variety.

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Response to karynnj (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:59 PM

25. I agree: Catholics who would have a problem with this

are republicans, anyway. Like my republican, anti-choice family. They weren't going to vote for Obama if hell froze over!!

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Response to former9thward (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:05 PM

30. 98% of American women use birth control

no matter what their religious belief. that includes Catholic women.

I don't know one Catholic woman who does not use birth control - tho, yes, I'm sure there is a tiny minority that does not. However, this issue is really one that a small slice of Americans disagree with - 98% of women in this nation includes all political parties, all religious groups - frankly, if the President had sided with the Catholic church on this, he wouldn't deserve to hold office, imo.

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Response to RainDog (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:45 PM

36. Of course that is not the issue.

The issue is not who uses or doesn't use birth control. The issue is whether religious groups should be forced to offer birth control to their employees.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #16)

Fri Feb 10, 2012, 06:40 PM

42. Don't forget the Latino vote.

They are almost 100% Catholic and pay more attention to the Church than do Anglo-Catholics. CO, NV, and NM become endangered, and possibly CA.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:03 PM

29. Prosense posted a poll - 58% of Catholics think it should be provided

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002279428

I would imagine that the 44% who voted against him last time are the same majority who voted that they cared.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 03:12 PM

40. Individual Catholics......

don't march in lock-step with the church.......much as the church would like to force them to do so. There are a lot of Catholics who think the church has it all wrong when it comes to family planning matters.

Obama has always been pro-choice. I sincerely doubt that supporting PP is going to change the opinion of the Catholics who voted for him in the last election.

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:36 AM

4. Once they become employers, they should fall under the same laws

and regulations as all other employers--that's where religion ends. They can staff schools and hospitals with true-believer volunteers or nuns, if they want to be able to enforce tenets of their faith among their workers. I don't think he picked a fight, I think he's just holding them to the law.

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Response to TwilightGardener (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:49 AM

8. I tend to agree...a 100% Catholic hospital employing only Catholics, serving only Catholics...

...should be allowed to do whatever it wants. At that point, it is basically a church for sick people.

I reiterate, though; if they want to get involved in the national political debate, GIVE UP THE TAX-EXEMPT STATUS.

.

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:48 AM

7. The Catholic church may be upset

but most Catholics I know are fine with this. I personally don't know any Catholics with more than 2 or 3 kids...my guess is ..they use birth control.

Many Catholic Universities, Hospitals already cover contraception in their health insurance plans. I think the media just wants something to talk about. ssdd.

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:49 AM

9. I was surprised by the number of MSNBC

people who would on camera self identify as being Catholic. Just an aside to the conversation on their morning commentary on tis subject.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:53 AM

10. Why does this surprise you? Was it the "on camera" or actually admitting they

were Catholic?

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:54 AM

11. I would have rather seen him pick a fight with wall street bankers, the real baddies.

That could never happen of course.

Not that I'm against what he did on birth control.
Health insurance has to cover birth control or it is basically worthless.

No need to piss of the leaders of America's fastest growing religion.
Should have bribed them off instead first.




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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 11:58 AM

12. He had to choose between the 21st Century and the 10th Century. He chose the 21st Century.

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:00 PM

13. It is the Catholic hierarchy pushing the outrage...

not the everyday Catholic, imo, except for the ones who are of the Opus Dei fundamentalist types. As for the cries of "oppression", well, this hierarchy is expert on oppressing others.

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Response to Spazito (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:11 PM

31. It's certainly not Obama

it's not like Obama chose to piss off the Catholic Church. Certain members of the church are turning a total non-issue into a political issue because certain clergy in the church are more interested in conservative politics than their actual religious calling. For the record the Pope these guys loved spent vastly more time talking about ending war, pro-unions, anti death penalty, and financial aid to the third world than he ever did about abortion and gays, yet all you ever hear is conservative talking points. I seriously think we are generation away from certain "Catholic clergy" opening up Catholic investments and claiming they're exempt from the FCC because of the first amendment.

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Response to Johonny (Reply #31)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:21 PM

35. The Catholic hierarchy thrives on outrage...

they are no different, imo, than any political organization ie the repubs who use faux outrage to fill the coffers.

I have no quarrel with those practitioners of the faith who actually practice it, it is the hypocrites that offend me, the hierarchy hypocrites.

As to the current Pope, he was, and no doubt still is, pivotal in the protection of the child abusing priests. He is scum, imo.

The last decent Pope, imo, was Pope John XXIII. He, at least, tried to change the Church, with the calling of the Second Vatican Council.

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:04 PM

14. "The Church" is putting up a howl

but I doubt many of the so-called adherents really care.
And I bet most want to keep their birth control.

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:30 PM

17. Funny, I was told on this website that I'd better believe that he would cave. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:32 PM

18. Funny, that. We're frequently told we'd better believe things, and

then find out that it was better not to believe them later.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:50 PM

20. It defies belief, really. It's striking, though, how many people believe, without proof,

anonymous Internet postings. Some days on DU, it seems like people choose to believe the worst about the President, before they've even put their socks on in the morning.

Unbelievable. And this, from highly respected posters, too.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:02 PM

27. Highly respected, but certainly not by all.

My patience with doomsaying and bashing is gone. Campaign season is here.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:11 PM

32. You'd better believe my patience for fools was never great.

Now that campaign season is here, I have even less patience for those who cannot appreciate the difference between President Obama and every other real candidate out there.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #32)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:19 PM

33. Now, I Believe that.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #27)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 02:56 PM

37. I certainly hope this doesn't try your patience

 

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 03:05 PM

38. That is not what tries my patience.

You may have misunderstood that subthread.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 03:09 PM

39. No, I didn't misunderstand

 

It's now election season, and you have no patience for bashers, etc. This was said in a context where you were celebrating with the other poster about how you weren't going to take anymore guff this election season, that you had heard naysayers saying Obama would back down from the Catholic contraception thing. And I'm saying this isn't settled yet. Obama has signaled a willingness to compromise. I don't know how this will come out; neither do you. I'm not naysaying. I'm question-marking, which might try your patience, given that you said you were depleted of patience, and given that you celebrated with the other poster as though this were settled policy.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #39)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 03:19 PM

41. Here's the thing:

I write what I want, and you write what you want. That's how it works.

Might there be a compromise? There usually is. Everything has to keep running in a society that is divided in many ways. I expect compromises. Sometimes, I hope for compromises, depending on the issue.

I have not lost my patience for the operation of a society. I have lost my patience with mindless bashing of every issue that does not go exactly as someone hopes it would go and is, hence, a complete disaster. Nothing goes exactly as anyone wants. Never has. Never will.

Look around you. We're a nation that is divided between two broadly different political sets of opinion. Sometimes one set of opinions is in power. Sometimes, the other is in power. We vote for that. In 2010, we voted for a Republican majority in the House. I didn't vote for that. I never vote for that. We lost that election, to be quite frank, and that's the reality we're dealing with. So, there will either be compromises or there will be nothing.

In 2012, we have another opportunity to elect a Democratic-controlled Congress and President. If we do that, we'll have fewer compromises. My loss of patience is with those who do not understand that simple reality. I don't expect that patience to return any time soon.

From now on, when someone says that I'd better believe some bullshit or another, I'm going to tell that person that, no, I'm not going to believe it. I'm going to continue right on trying to get a Democratic Congress and President elected. Anything that gets in the way of that will not get my patience. It will get my animosity.

I hope that's clearly enough stated for you.

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:51 PM

21. The church hierarchy are sexist pigs who have never accepted the enlightenment.

The vast majority of Catholics are using birth control.
The Catholic Church and Southern Baptists must lose their tax-exempt status.

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Response to Atman (Original post)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:53 PM

22. Anyone who pisses off that lot is a hero.

 

F@#$ the Vatican and their woman-hating, gay-hating, power-hungry ways.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 12:55 PM

24. Some in the past

and perhaps even now, are children lovers though. Not in a good way.

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Response to Broderick (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:20 PM

34. Oh, yeah. You KNOW that still goes on

 

and I'm sure it's a dismayingly large number.

And the corrupt hierarchy will continue to do what it can to keep it quiet.

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