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Sat Apr 27, 2013, 07:59 PM

Leftist priests: Francis can fix church 'in ruins'

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) A new pope from Latin America who wants to build "a church for the poor" is stirring hopes among advocates of liberation theology, a movement of social activism that alarmed former popes by delving into leftist politics.

Pope Francis has what it takes to fix a church "in ruins" that has "lost its respect for what is sacred," prominent liberation theologian Leonardo Boff said Saturday.

"With this pope, a Jesuit and a pope from the Third World, we can breathe happiness," Boff said at a Buenos Aires book fair. "Pope Francis has both the vigor and tenderness that we need to create a new spiritual world."

http://news.yahoo.com/leftist-priests-francis-fix-church-ruins-213627659.html

Well he is still a homophobic asshole, but let us hope this guy is right.

33 replies, 1626 views

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Arrow 33 replies Author Time Post
Reply Leftist priests: Francis can fix church 'in ruins' (Original post)
arely staircase Apr 2013 OP
madrchsod Apr 2013 #1
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #2
Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #3
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #4
Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #5
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #6
Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #7
edhopper Apr 2013 #8
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #11
Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #19
backscatter712 Apr 2013 #23
arely staircase Apr 2013 #17
Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #20
arely staircase Apr 2013 #22
hrmjustin Apr 2013 #26
arely staircase Apr 2013 #28
backscatter712 Apr 2013 #9
Katashi_itto Apr 2013 #10
backscatter712 Apr 2013 #12
Katashi_itto Apr 2013 #15
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #13
Katashi_itto Apr 2013 #14
Bluenorthwest Apr 2013 #16
Katashi_itto Apr 2013 #18
backscatter712 Apr 2013 #27
Katashi_itto Apr 2013 #30
Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #29
Katashi_itto Apr 2013 #31
Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #21
backscatter712 Apr 2013 #25
Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #33
MNBrewer Apr 2013 #24
Drale Apr 2013 #32

Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 08:05 PM

1. it would be a step in the right direction

the church has to atone for its sins. maybe this guy will lead the way.

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Response to arely staircase (Original post)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:10 PM

2. too busy condemning France for ending marriage discrimination.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #2)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:16 PM

3. In all fairness, that's his job.

He's the head of a church that believes the Bible directs that homosexuality is a sin, so of course the head of the church's job is to live by and preach and promote the church's beliefs, for its members.

The church has many other beliefs, as well, so I don't know why people focus on this one thing so much. It also believes abortion is murder, stealing is a sin, wives should be submissive to husbands, and many other things.

So it's not really fair to blame one person for the church's position. It is the church itself, and almost all religions actually, including Islam, that believe most of these things. In fact, Islam is stricter about its infringements on individual freedom.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #3)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 09:20 PM

4. "his job" is to do whatever "god" commands.

He could wake up tomorrow with a revelation. Or even two or three. 1. end celibacy 2. ordain women 3. end the persecution of gays. Of course he would be struck dead the next day.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #4)

Sat Apr 27, 2013, 11:18 PM

5. I don't think that's how the Catholic Church works.

It's like a big corporation, and he's the CEO. He has certain power, but ultimately, it's the corporation that is the great decider. The Pope didn't rise to power, wasn't born to the position. He was elected by the Board. They can take over ruthlessly if they feel the need. It would involve declaring him incapacitated, but the church has a long history of ruthlessness.

He is, I've read, more a symbol than a decision maker, although he can be that, too. But he can't declare the dogma and core beliefs of the church to be invalid, I believe.

The misperception is, however, that the church will change its dogmatic and many doctrinal teachings based on the will of the people or on popular opinion. That is just simply not the case.

These teachings of the Catholic Church are based on two things: Scripture (the Word of God) and Apostolic Tradition. The former, Scripture (the Bible), is the written Word of God and does not change. The New Testament books of the Bible are filled with the teachings of Jesus Christ who is the Teacher of the Truth and founder of the church. The traditions passed down from Jesus to the Apostles and then to their successors are the sacred truth.

The Holy Spirit is the guide and protector for the church (the people of God), and through its power, those doctrines of the church that are divinely revealed remain the truth despite the many flawed humans who lead it.

It is important to consider that the church, quite simply, is not a democracy. The church does not have the authority to change the teachings and traditions as taught and passed down by Jesus Christ based on cultural or popular opinion. For example, many would like to see the church change their teaching on abortion, an issue that the earliest church documents issued by the Apostles and their immediate successors deemed sinful and a violation of the fifth commandment of God. The church, therefore, will not change its teaching despite the numbers of pro-choice Catholics around the world.


http://www.wickedlocal.com/easton/topstories/x935171693/GUEST-COLUMN-The-church-the-new-pope-and-its-doctrine#axzz2RiuncHfs

It is important to remember that a new pope is not at all like a new president. The election of a new president generally means a transfer of power from one faction to another and portends changes to and reversals of the policies of the previous administration. However, the pope, as the Vicar, or representative, of Christ, is very different from a president. Rather than an executive charged with making policy decisions, he is the caretaker of eternal truths. If anything, a new pope is more like a new secretary of state or chief of staff within the same administration. It is an important office, to be sure, but the overarching philosophy, goals, and mission are coming from higher up the ranks.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2013/4/12/pope-francis-harvard/

So it depends on whether a certain issue is part of the church's dogma, a teaching from Christ, or part of the church's bureaocracy and rules. That's my understanding.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 08:33 AM

6. Actually it is exactly how the Roman Catholic Church works.

The pope can rule tomorrow ex cathedra that the church now loves gay marriage. See Vatican I and Vatican II.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #6)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 09:48 AM

7. Not if it's the word of God and Catholic dogma. No can do.

Because homosexuality is a sin, according to the Church's dogma, coming from God. He CAN rule that gay people can't be excommunicated, since that's not dogma, it's merely church rules. And that they receive communion, or the like, I believe.

He can't rule that abortion is not a sin, either, or any number of things that the church has said come from the word of God and are dogma.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 09:56 AM

8. So why treat an institution that promotes such harmful

and hateful bigotry with any respect?
Do we defer to the Grand Dragon of the Klu Klux Klan and hold them in esteem?
Hate cannot be tolerated by anyone.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #7)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 11:13 AM

11. He can issue and has issued new rules

At any time.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #11)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:47 PM

19. Homosexuality being a sin is not a rule.

Letting a homosexual or abortionist or some other supposed sinner get communion...that's a rule, is my understanding.

The sinner definitions...that supposedly comes directly from God. Dogma. Can't be changed. No one can change "the word of God," according to the Catholic Church. Only its rules that the humans drafted.

So the Pope will, by definition, represent the "word of God" as seen by the Church. That's his job. He has discretion in the rules that were drafted by Church leaders. Such as whether the Priests have to be celibate. That's not a "sinner" definition from the Bible/God.

This Pope has expressed things that lead to the guess that he may relax the celibacy requirements of priests. He has that discretion. Even then, he might meet with resistance.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #19)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:08 PM

23. "Thou shalt not kill" is also dogma, as you frame it.

It's spelled out very clearly in one of the most widely read sets of laws in the Christian faith.

Yet throughout its history, the Roman Catholic Church has shown extraordinary flexibility in its level of adherance to that commandment.

Ptolemy used to be the canonical authority on correct astronomy, while Galileo was prosecuted, Bruno burned alive (whoops, so much for that "Thou shalt not kill" again...) for doing this thing called science, and suggesting that things worked differently, based on their observations and measurements of the heavens. They only apologized for that bit of persecution in the 1990's, IIRC. But now, they have a Vatican astronomer, a man of the cloth, who was interviewed by Bill Maher, and holds a modern view on cosmology, evolution and other sciences.

The Vatican can change their stance on homosexuality and women's issues. And in fact, they'll have to change if they want to remain relevant in the 21st century. Francis can lead his church, or he can sit on his butt and watch as the RCC continues to lose credibility.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 12:45 PM

17. The Word of God

has to be interpreted by human beings. The Episcopal Church, which also bases its theology on Scripture and Apostolic tradition (as well as reason) does not condemn homosexuality.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #17)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:49 PM

20. The Episcopal Church is not the Catholic Church.

Each religion, each branch of each religion, has determined what is the word of God. And those words differ somewhat, although there are some things that are universal.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #20)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:07 PM

22. No, but like the Episcopal Church the Catholic Church can change it's views on things.

It is an organization of people with free will.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #20)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:34 PM

26. The Episcopal Church is catholic, just not Roman Catholic.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #26)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:40 PM

28. that is correct

One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic...

I say it every (well most) Sunday.

I was using the short-form common usage, but you are right.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #4)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 10:06 AM

9. Yep. As Bill Maher put it, the Catholic Church is just like his show.

It's a bunch of old white guys who sit around and come up with new rules.

New Rule: Gay people are icky, and aren't allowed to get married.
New Rule: No fish on Friday.
New Rule: Fish OK on Friday!

At any moment, Francis can do the Carnac the Magnificent routine, act like he just got a call straight from God's cell phone, and announce New Rule: Gay people are cool! RCC churches are open for gay marriage!

But he's too busy pretending to be folksy and doing photo-ops to actually make real change in the organization he heads.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 10:10 AM

10. Honeycomb is correct. Your letting your own views color, your perception of what he's doing.

This is not a simple matter of just reforming a rogue religious institution. You have to change it's culture. He is fighting large, entrenched political factions. He has to play their game to a certain degree.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 11:15 AM

12. Two questions:

First: Is Pope Francis on the side of the LGBT community at all? I suspect not.

Second: Assuming he was interested in such reforms (that's a big if), is he a leader, or isn't he? He's got the big hat, and the title, and has millions of people across the planet watching his every move. Even if he didn't have the political power, he could show some leadership. Even if he can't put on the Carnac the Magnificent hat, take the cellphone call from God and say New Rule: Gay is OK!, he could start saying that members of the gay community should be treated with Christian kindness, or he could deemphasize the crackdowns on LGBT rights and focus more on helping the poor, or something.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #12)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 12:15 PM

15. As a lapsed Catholic, frankly, I am willing to give this Pope a chance, since it's the first time

in decades I am willing to think there might be change upon the wind, however slow. again, its a matter of playing factions off against each other.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #10)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 11:20 AM

13. Google Vatican I and II.

The pope can make new rules anytime he chooses.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #13)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 12:13 PM

14. And end up dead with a "heart attack" The Vatican is like an ancient Asiatic Court

with it's intrigues.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 12:32 PM

16. So they murder each other? But what about 'the Word of God' others are claiming

commands bigotry toward gays? Don't they count the 'don't murder' verses?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:56 PM

18. Not often. And save the the "morality or religion" stuff for the faithful.

I am simply stating how it is.

The Church is a thousand year old Corporation/state. It's product is belief in an afterlife. Factions within the church, will go to far measures to protect it's "band"

One example.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/10/plot-kill-pope-italian-media

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:37 PM

27. Amazing how the prohibitions against homosexuality are set in stone...

Yet the Fifth Commandment, handed straight to Moses on a stone tablet directly from God Himself, is negotiable...

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #27)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:58 PM

30. Likely not, if it's handled right, this Pope is running against a long tradition.

Baseline, he's keeping his game plan quiet. Whatever he's doing, it seems he playing a long term strategy.

The moment he embraced officially atheists, was the moment I realized he was really a pope of a different stripe.

"...atheists and believers can be "precious allies" in their efforts "to defend the dignity of man, in the building of a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in the careful protection of creation."

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:43 PM

29. Well I agree with that.

I originally noted uothread that if a pope allowed gay marriage, ended celibacy, and allowed the ordination of women, he would be struck dead the next day.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #29)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 05:01 PM

31. Yep, I really think he is campaigning for change. He simply has to be very careful.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:51 PM

21. Gay people and eating fish are examples of dogma and rules. The first is dogma...

the eating fish on Friday is a rule. Excellent example.

The Pope cannot declare that the word of God is being changed such that abortion is no longer murder, stealing is no longer a sin, etc. Those aren't "rules." Those are part of the dogma.

Eating fish on Friday, or allowing certain people to get communion...those are rules. Rules can be changed.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #21)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:30 PM

25. What's the difference between "dogma" and "rules"?

Bill Maher's point in his rant about the Catholic Church, the conclave of Cardinals and the Pope being identical to his show where it's a bunch of guys sitting around making up new rules is that the Roman Catholic Church, like every other religion, has pulled all of its rules out of its ass.

The "no meat on Friday" rule was pulled out of some Pope's rear about a century ago, then it was rescinded. They also declared that the Sun revolved around the Earth, declared that to be the word of God, and that contradicting said word with blasphemous ideas of science is punishable by death. More recently, they had a Revelation (TM) and changed their views on cosmology and astronomy to reflect reality. They also claim homosexuality is icky based on verses in the Bible, but don't bat an eye when people are eating shellfish or wearing blended fabrics.

Is the rules against homosexuality "dogma"? I don't see much of a difference between "dogma" and "rules" - they're both mutable if Francis and his fellow old men in dresses decide that they are. Like I said, they're historically very flexible on that "Thou shalt not kill" thing when it's politic to rub someone out. They easily can change their rules, and "dogma." In the case of homosexuality, they just don't want to.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #25)

Mon Apr 29, 2013, 10:17 PM

33. The difference between dogma and rules is...supposedly the "word of God."

One is supposedly issued directly from God and can be found in the Bible. The other is a rule that is manmade. Whatever is made by man can be changed. But whatever comes from God cannot be changed by man.

I think that's the way it goes. The Ten Commandments, lists of things that God supposedly decrees are sins, whatever else God sends a word on...those can't be changed by any man, even the Pope.

I'm no expert, of course. But that's my understanding. The rules of divorce, excommunication, communion, eating fish on Fridays...these were all rules made by men of the Church, which did not come directly from God.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 04:23 PM

24. His job is to run the RCC, not France

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #3)

Sun Apr 28, 2013, 05:02 PM

32. The Church believes what the Pope tells it to believe

its not his job, he's a homophobic anti-women ass just like most of the other old men running the Catholic Church.

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