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Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:01 AM

OWS committed suicide....

It was a long slow death that started when they refused to identify leaders who people could have coalesced around, and ended when after 4 months, they still had moved pass,the 'sitting around in parks' stage of their 'movement. They had no plan for how to capitalize on the police forcing them out. That was evident after the Zuccatti park eviction caused the orginal group to shrivel up.

It's a shame. The occupy movement could have been so much more, if only they had listened in the beginning when people told the, that there message was convoluted and you can't base a nationwide movement around no personality.

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Reply OWS committed suicide.... (Original post)
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 OP
salin Feb 2012 #1
Swede Feb 2012 #2
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #6
Warren Stupidity Feb 2012 #3
TBF Feb 2012 #91
morningfog Feb 2012 #4
MineralMan Feb 2012 #5
mmonk Feb 2012 #7
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #9
mmonk Feb 2012 #14
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #22
mmonk Feb 2012 #32
morningfog Feb 2012 #38
Jackpine Radical Feb 2012 #57
Lucky Luciano Feb 2012 #121
RKP5637 Feb 2012 #199
Marr Feb 2012 #178
Safetykitten Feb 2012 #8
Thaddeus Kosciuszko Feb 2012 #10
xchrom Feb 2012 #11
LiberalEsto Feb 2012 #12
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #18
LiberalEsto Feb 2012 #50
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #71
randome Feb 2012 #24
Thaddeus Kosciuszko Feb 2012 #29
Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #108
BeFree Feb 2012 #201
Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #211
vaberella Feb 2012 #13
Vanje Feb 2012 #53
vaberella Feb 2012 #96
Cali_Democrat Feb 2012 #125
vaberella Feb 2012 #217
LiberalLovinLug Feb 2012 #146
vaberella Feb 2012 #218
Starry Messenger Feb 2012 #15
Fumesucker Feb 2012 #16
ScreamingMeemie Feb 2012 #42
Life Long Dem Feb 2012 #17
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #21
Life Long Dem Feb 2012 #26
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #30
Life Long Dem Feb 2012 #35
think Feb 2012 #37
SammyWinstonJack Feb 2012 #46
Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #115
think Feb 2012 #127
Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #163
Mosaic Feb 2012 #198
Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #210
kenfrequed Feb 2012 #225
JHB Feb 2012 #48
WilliamPitt Feb 2012 #111
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #118
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roody Feb 2012 #19
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Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #51
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a simple pattern Feb 2012 #151
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think Feb 2012 #79
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think Feb 2012 #89
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inna Feb 2012 #93
greytdemocrat Feb 2012 #97
aquart Feb 2012 #103
The Doctor. Feb 2012 #143
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LiberalEsto Feb 2012 #167
Aerows Feb 2012 #98
socialist_n_TN Feb 2012 #99
RetroLounge Feb 2012 #101
aquart Feb 2012 #102
bvar22 Feb 2012 #105
Rex Feb 2012 #107
whatchamacallit Feb 2012 #141
tledford Feb 2012 #169
randome Feb 2012 #171
Rex Feb 2012 #106
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #110
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devilgrrl Feb 2012 #114
L0oniX Feb 2012 #116
Cleita Feb 2012 #117
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Cleita Feb 2012 #130
Mosaic Feb 2012 #203
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #131
Cleita Feb 2012 #134
LiberalEsto Feb 2012 #170
Warren Stupidity Feb 2012 #177
Cali_Democrat Feb 2012 #126
Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #135
The Doctor. Feb 2012 #138
randome Feb 2012 #145
The Doctor. Feb 2012 #160
LiberalLovinLug Feb 2012 #164
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RKP5637 Feb 2012 #128
randome Feb 2012 #129
RKP5637 Feb 2012 #189
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tritsofme Feb 2012 #132
think Feb 2012 #140
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think Feb 2012 #152
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The Doctor. Feb 2012 #137
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think Feb 2012 #158
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think Feb 2012 #159
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whatchamacallit Feb 2012 #179
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Joe the Revelator Feb 2012 #227

Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:02 AM

1. I am not so sure

that it is time for an obit just yet.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:02 AM

2. Joe,the OWS took a break during winter.

It's waking up again.

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Response to Swede (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:04 AM

6. I thought the plan was to weather the winter with n interruption.....

I'd love to be proved wrong, id love to see a leaner, more focused movement start this spring, but that would require more coordination then OWS, in it's current form, is capable of.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:03 AM

3. Thank you for your concern.

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Response to Warren Stupidity (Reply #3)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:12 PM

91. +1 nt

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:04 AM

4. You are quite wrong on that.

Occupy is holding regular events, free classes and actions in cities across the country. It is very much alive as a movement, growing and evolving.

A singular message and national leader would have destroyed them for sure. See this post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002268300

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:04 AM

5. A glutton for punishment, eh?

Seriously, I don't think OWS should be eulogized until Spring arrives. If it doesn't revive in the spring, then you might be correct. I don't have a clue whether OWS will continue to be a force in politics or not. We shall see.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:05 AM

7. For the millionth time, we are not dead.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #7)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:06 AM

9. A leader emerges...

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:09 AM

14. There are leaders and organizers at various locales.

While things are done on a concensus basis in each occupy, the organizers are still going strong.

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Response to mmonk (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:15 AM

22. That was another nail in the coffin...

Consensus. Silly idea that allowed the movement to be coopted by anyone with an agenda and enough people.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #22)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:21 AM

32. Then why do we still have ongoing actions? There is no nail and there is no coffin.

As long as big money controls the system and both parties, we will not die.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #22)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:24 AM

38. You still don't get it. A single issue and a leader would have ended it long ago.

Occupy continues with weekly, often daily actions, community classes and campaigns. They are still very active in local cities and towns making a real difference in people's lives.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #38)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:34 AM

57. You're exactly right. Allow me to re-post a little essay of mine:

How can we build an equitable society that lasts longer than the New Deal did?

I think the challenges of finding a lasting remedy for the problems of our social structure lie beyond the scope of the doctrines of socialism, liberalism, or any other political "fix." Almost any hierarchy seems to become dominated by power-junkies, regardless of their nominal ideology. Witness the history of the Soviet Union, or of China. No matter how democratic and humanistic Marx might have been, those acting in his name have often perverted ins teachings.

Autocrats of all stripes love centralization, at least up to the level just beneath them, and seek to pull power away from the people and political structures under them.

In too many cases, the following model applies:

Marx:Marxists::Christ:Christians

I have been preaching the virtues of leaderless organizations here, and have been watching the worldwide popular movements of the past year. What I see is a global populace using new tools such as the social media in uniting, informing itself, and initiating a loosely coordinated series of actions. There is no strongly hierarchical organization, there are no permanent leaders, but there is a group decision-making process. There is planning. People see what needs to be done, and do it, be it setting up an aid station, distributing food, or cleaning up litter.

I think we are nowhere near discovering the potential power that springs from universal one-to-many communication, in which any person with an idea can communicate it to others, and watch it go viral if people start finding merit in it. In fact, the whole movement rests largely upon this power.

Socialism to me means an equitable distribution of both goods and power. In the past, attempts to enact socialist policies have always relied upon centralized power in the hands of a few leaders--in other words, a power structure not too different from those of the capitalist countries. Both the capitalist and socialist power structures severely limit the freedom of the ordinary person.

The leaderless direct democracy exists in direct contradistinction to the hierarchical model of organization that has been typical of human societies for the past several thousand years.

In fact, I think that the new leaderless organizations may best be compared to a number of pre-agricultural societies, such as those of the woodland Indians of North America. Among many of these tribes, the leaders had no institutional power beyond that of persuasion. A given person might develop a reputation as a good leader of war parties, and people might look to him when it came time to raid an enemy. He would lay out his scheme for battle and everyone would talk about it, making modifications based on suggestions from the group members. If you didn't like the resulting plan, you were free to express your differences, and, ultimately, you were free to go your own way if you could not resolve those differences. Leadership was not a paid position. A good leader was simply someone who could get most people to accept his ideas. In daily life, he lived in the same way as everyone else, engaging in the same economic activities and suffering the same hardships.

Historically, that sort of direct participatory democracy could only function in small groups because people needed to meet face-to-face. The advent of agriculture pretty much destroyed this type of democracy, for two reasons, both related to the increased availability of food. First, the population increased beyond a size that could comfortably meet and confer, and (much more importantly), the extra food meant that not everyone had to spend all their time trying to feed themselves, so some leisure time became available. Priesthoods and monarchies arose based on the new infrastructure. The priests specialized in acquiring (real or imagined) knowledge, and the monarchs specialized in building power structures and regulating the lives of their subjects. Sometimes the priests and rulers were one and the same, and sometimes the roles were separated, but they always stood in alliance, reinforcing and checking each other's power.

Modern government descends from the social structures and social assumptions that arose with the advent of agriculture. All such governments are hierarchical in nature, and tend to be marked by imbalances in information flow. That is, the rulers and priests controlled access to information through one-to-many communication devices, while the peasantry were limited to (at most) one-to-one (or at best, one-to-a-few) communication with each other, and only very limited forms of communication with their rulers and priests.

The Industrial Revolution that began in the 18th Century is often cited as the next phase after the Era of Agriculture. I think this is a somewhat overblown notion because while the advent of the machine did shift power balances around somewhat among the ruling classes, it did not fundamentally change the hierarchical, centralized nature of social organization--except, in some ways, to facilitate its development and amplify its scale. The same pattern of one-to-many communication for the powerful and one-to-one communication for the masses persisted.

Only now, in the Information Age, is this ancient model starting to break up.

I see the Occupy movement as the first, embryonic stirrings of a totally new mode of social organization that will bring global changes to the species that are at least as significant as the changes that occurred with the Agricultural Revolution.

I believe that the advent of mass one-to-many communication in the hands of the people will permit us to recapture the advantages of tribal self-government, to break down the walls of hierarchy, and institute a species-wide, totally democratic network of self-governance unlike anything the world has ever seen.


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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #57)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:12 PM

121. I have always told my extreme leftist mother that

communism is doomed from the outset since the leaders of the party will be corrupted by power just as much as the capitalists get corrupted. The ambitious people will try to become communist party leaders instead of Wall Street financiers or hedge fund managers etc.

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Response to Lucky Luciano (Reply #121)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:17 PM

199. Yep, we've seen many examples of this in history, that '-isms' of

whichever flavor are eventually doomed and corrupted by power. ... and with the power of money as we see in our country now. The power hungry would just shift their ambitions to whatever the new '-ism' was.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #22)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:50 PM

178. Apparently not. The establishment Democrats couldn't do it.

And I can't imagine any other single group with more reason and resources to make the attempt.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:05 AM

8. Hardly.

 

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:06 AM

10. Committing...

 

It's not too late for a well-trained Border Collie, to herd Black Sheep.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:07 AM

11. ...

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:08 AM

12. The corporate MEDIA has painted OWS as having no clear message

but the message is perfectly obvious to me.

Restrict the excessive power of the corporations and the wealthy.

Their strategy of not having chosen leaders is perfectly reasonable. It keeps the cops, politicians and the corporate media from targeting individuals.

Occupy is alive and well and growing, no matter what the naysayers assume.

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Response to LiberalEsto (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:11 AM

18. But how? There was never a coherent manifesto of demands....and by not having leaders....

When members of the movement do idiotic things like steal and burn a flag or, hit a cop n the head with a brick, there is no personality available to disown those actions and to assure the public that OWS wasn't just made up of crazy kids looking to get into a little anarchy.

No real leadership killed the movement before it even started.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:32 AM

50. Since when is it a requirement of a movement to write a manifesto?

I thought their concerns were voiced clearly enough for any person of reasonable intelligence.

The corporate media purposely chose to obfuscate them.

As far as stealing and burning the flag, the photos clearly showed that the people doing it covered most of their faces with bandannas. I STRONGLY doubt they were members of OWS. I suspect they were paid trolls.

I don't know any details about the brick incident, but I suspect the thrower could have been another hired troll. It just doesn't sound like something that anyone I know in OWS would do. The vast majority of OWS participants would refuse to tolerate it. Same with the flag burning.

I should also add that the U.S. Capitol police are some of the most vicious cops around. I've seen them ride their horses right into and onto demonstrators and beat people at random since the Vietnam War days. I live right outside DC and I have seen this time and again. I would not attempt to tangle with them for anything.

The corporate media shows the world what it WANTS the world to see.

I remember going to a very large, very peaceful antiwar demonstration in New York's Central Park in the early 1970s. While leaving this very peaceful demonstration, I stopped and watched an ABC News crew filming several actors having a staged fight. The actors, unlike the majority of real demonstrators, were dressed like thugs. There was NOTHING like this in the real demonstration, it was just the media's intention to destroy the peace movement's credibility by depicting them as a bunch of dirty violent hippie thugs.

Witnessing that destroyed any faith that I'd once had in major media -- and I'll have you know that I spent more than 25 years as a print journalist, including more than a decade at one of the larger newspapers in the US.

People should not make assumptions based on what they see on TV.

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Response to LiberalEsto (Reply #50)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:44 AM

71. This is my favorite part, when all the bad done in the name of OWS is blamed on..

Hired agitators. Let's ignore the fact that OWS members have been covering their faces since inception to protect against pepper spray and the fact that a real living person was seriously injured when he got hit in the head with a brick, because what we got her is a conspiracy!

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Response to LiberalEsto (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:16 AM

24. And what about the liberal media?

Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Rachel Maddow? I have yet to see anyone address why they mention OWS only in passing.

Without clear leadership or consistent messaging, all OWS seems to be concerned with these days is fighting the cops and proving their own relevance.

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Response to LiberalEsto (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:19 AM

29. "The corporate MEDIA has painted OWS as having no clear message."

 

Restrict, is not a clear message.

Their strategy of not having chosen leaders is perfectly reasonable.

However, your view of leaders is not. Leaders are not chosen--they lead.

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Response to LiberalEsto (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:00 PM

108. "Restrict the excessive power of the corporations and the wealthy. "

 

How?

Specifically.

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Response to Kellerfeller (Reply #108)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:24 PM

201. How to restrict the excessive power?

Can hardly believe anyone has to say this, but what the hey.....

We the People will force our government to write laws that restrict the excessive power.

Until now, before Occupy got going, the People were lead astray by the corrupt politicians and the M$M. Now we have come together, and throwing off the shackles which bound us to our seats, are joining together to speak with one united voice.

And that voice is saying: You want to remain an elected leader in this country? Then you will begin listening to the 99% and tell the 1% to sit down and shut up.

The congress will do our bidding because they know if they don't they will be looking for a job real soon.

You really should join us. Its fun!

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Response to BeFree (Reply #201)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:28 PM

211. "We the People will force our government to write laws"

 

You do realize that "We the People" are (or are alt least supposed to be) the gov't.

Why are you expecting someone else to write the laws?

Do you not know what laws you want written?

If not, how are those mysterious people in "our gov't" going to know what laws you want?

That's why I asked "Specifically". You just gave vague generalities.

So I'll ask again: Specifically how do you ""Restrict the excessive power of the corporations and the wealthy. "?

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:08 AM

13. Well they never really had my support to begin with.

I'm with the 99% not OWS.

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Response to vaberella (Reply #13)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:32 AM

53. Of course OWS never had your support.

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Response to Vanje (Reply #53)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:22 PM

96. Cryptic much...what's your point?! n/t

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Response to vaberella (Reply #96)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:20 PM

125. I don't think you had to tell us that it never had your support

You're stating the obvious.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #125)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 07:16 AM

217. Why didn't I have to say it? I think I can say what I want if it's on topic.

Most others are saying how much they support it or think it's worthwhile and so on and so forth. I don't see how that's even stating the obvious since I never stated I didn't support it before hand. I could have been one of the supporters or those who think it's alive.

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Response to vaberella (Reply #13)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:05 PM

146. Let others do the fighting for you?

How nice.

that's almost the same as "Get your government hands off of my Medicare!"

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #146)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 07:20 AM

218. Aye? Do you know me or what I'm about?

I think not. I never knew that I had to support every group that has come out. OWS in New York I support---- but the faction as a whole. Nope. I think it's my right and I see no where in my post that implies anything you've interpreted. But it's whatever. I'm not a follower. I believe in what I believe in. If I don't agree with something. I don't I don't see how that even suggests anything about "Get your government hands off my medicare."

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:10 AM

16. Remember "The Dean Scream"?

He allowed himself to get a little enthusiastic one time with the cameras rolling and it was used to bludgeon his candidacy.

Think of that times infinity, that's what would be launched at any OWS "leader" who was naive enough to identify herself.



ETA: It's also instructive to look at what happened to a twelve year old kid that ran afoul of the M$M smear machine.. Graeme Frost.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:28 AM

42. Thank you for reposting the Frost family story.

We can't ever forget how the Republicans act in these situations.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:10 AM

17. Said the man in the dead of winter.

 

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #17)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:12 AM

21. The warmest winter in decades, when this fall OWS promised to occupy Zuccatti park...

..no matter the weather.. That worked out awesomely.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #21)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:18 AM

26. Still cold. And still winter.

 

It's 39 degrees right now in NYC. Last night was 32 degrees, that's freezing out.

They all should go for a swim!

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #26)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:20 AM

30. If 32 degrees ran them indoors, the the rw was right...

They were just a bunch of punk kids who were looking for a party instead of real change.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:22 AM

35. Ahhh... they want to live another day to fight.

 

You obviously don't consider life and death into any equation.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:24 AM

37. Harsh words for an arm chair quarterback /nt

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Response to think (Reply #37)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:29 AM

46. +1

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Response to think (Reply #37)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:07 PM

115. Unlike the OWS group, Joe didn't claim to be

 

the "real" quarterback.

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Response to Kellerfeller (Reply #115)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:24 PM

127. 99% is a fairly ambiguous term but you can pigeon hole if you must

The OP is denigrating a movement for being less active in winter while saying so from the comfort of the indoors.

Fair enough?

It is one thing to disagree with OWS tactics, actions, and/or goals and another thing entirely to belittle those who are making an effort to call out the corruption on Wall Street that is going unchecked by our government.

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Response to think (Reply #127)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:45 PM

163. I believe his point is that

 

they claimed they were going to go strong through the winter..and didn't.

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Response to Kellerfeller (Reply #163)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:13 PM

198. According to the gopher

We're only 6 weeks from Spring, and the rebirth of Occupy/99%. Occupy has done a lot we should be thankful for instead of listening to idiots like Bill Mahr criticsize something they really don't understand. Of course the 1% media and ruling class feel threatened, but it was they who boiled the frogs, us, in a pot for 30 years of class warfare. We're in a second gilded age, unless you are not a real Democrat, you should support this movement with all your heart, it may be the best last chance we get.

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Response to Mosaic (Reply #198)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:21 PM

210. That's stupid

 

Unless you really believe that someone cannot support an idea or goal and still think that some people are wrong in their method of trying to reach that goal.

Or do you think that everyone has to support your methods in order to also support your end goal.

Dumb, dumb, dumb.

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Response to Mosaic (Reply #198)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 11:21 AM

225. OWS can do no right

Either they are bums without jobs if they linger too long and cause trouble or they are not committed enough for taking time off during snow storms and are all fair weather. There is no winning for OWS in some peoples eyes. Bill Maher was just being a jerk, but there are people that front the argument he did with every ounce of venom they can.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:30 AM

48. Yeah, we know how awesomely effective doing nothing but camping in a park is.

So the real change will come about by just sitting in the park partying? Awesome! Let's all go to your park so you can show us all how to do it the right way!

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:01 PM

111. (facepalm)

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #111)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:08 PM

118. Thanks for the input...

Is that not what the rw said they were going to do? Personally, I don't believe the 'they just went inside while it was cold meme' but if that's the excuse that some here want to make, then they need to answer how that doesn't fit into the rw prediction for OWS.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #118)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:14 PM

172. For what it's worth,

Occupy Fairbanks is still camping out in the cold, despite it being -40 up there. You can't generalize from a few Occupy groups to the entire movement. Occupy Anchorage is still having weekly general assemblies and joining various community protests that come up -- marching on picket lines on behalf of the hotel workers at the Sheraton and Hilton, circulating petitions on local issues, especially an equal rights referendum for GLBT that's coming up for a vote in April, volunteering and many other local activities. One occupier I know here gives a weekly speech at our Town Square park whether anyone besides me is there or not. Protesters have been occupying our Municipal Assembly meetings even.

Occupy can mean many things to many different people, but it's far from dead.

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Response to Life Long Dem (Reply #26)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 09:50 PM

206. Russians are protesting in minus 20 degrees

looks like OWS are a bunch of pussies.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:11 AM

19. Very doubtful...

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:15 AM

23. Just paraphrase Mark Twain's comment to OWS.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:17 AM

25. Yeah Joe...

.. you run with that.

Faux Snooze says so..

.. so it must be true.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"





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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:18 AM

27. You and the corpo media wish

For example, occupy San diego held a major event yesterday, not that channel seven, NBC San Diego, two blocks from, could be bothered. They will be holding a class today, and another major event for all so cal occupies next week.

That is not a dead movement.

But the corporate media goes out of its way... In fact the smallers ones too. There is a certain level of exhaustion and "the old story" creeping in.

But dead, hardly.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #27)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:25 AM

40. So where are the liberal media on these events?

Jon Stewart? Stephen Colbert? Rachel Maddow? Keith Olberman? They don't seem to think this is as important as you WANT it to be.

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Response to randome (Reply #40)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:32 AM

51. That's a key point. So many here WANT OWS to be relevant that they give it a pass

On its quite obvious shortcomings.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #51)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:36 AM

58. We all want something larger than ourselves to believe in.

It's human nature. A lot of people latched onto OWS when it first started because it had such potential.

If 'evolving' is still part of the equation, people have got to understand that leadership and consistent messaging MUST be part of it.

Now there are a hundred OWS groups with about seventy different messages. So much noise, no one can hear what they are saying any longer.

'Changing the conversation' was a good start. But after six months, that's all OWS stands for?

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Response to randome (Reply #40)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 06:25 PM

191. Democracy Now has been covering OWS well, since the first.

Its on cable or the internet.
Hell its on the radio twice a day here in the reddest red state.

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Response to Vanje (Reply #191)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 06:43 PM

192. I don't think they have much reach, though, do they?

Not many listen to radio any more. And it still doesn't explain why the 'heavy hitters' of Stewart, Colbert, Maddow, etc. don't cover it more.

I know it's been said that they have to toe the line in regards to their corporations' interests but I don't think that's the full story.

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Response to randome (Reply #192)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:22 PM

200. The media has been hiding info for years

These 'liberals' you mention will not move the country to the left. They are centrists who play lefties to placate the masses. You really should know that by now. Current and Msnbc are clever in this way, watch the ties and the ads for clues. They sold out their true beliefs long ago for their cushy job, and fun 'play DC gossip job all day'.

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Response to randome (Reply #192)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 10:42 AM

222. Its on radio, cable , and always online

Democracy Now is my main news source, and I am as rural as can be.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #27)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:32 AM

55. I am curious--why are you so concerned about "the corpo media wish?"

 

Are you really interested in attracting people who acquire their knowledge from this provider?

Would You Expect Much Help?

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Response to Thaddeus Kosciuszko (Reply #55)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:11 PM

120. ????????????

Whatever dude.. Whoossshhh!!!!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #120)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:15 PM

122. "Whoossshhh!!!!"

 

The resonance moving air and empty thoughts...

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Response to Thaddeus Kosciuszko (Reply #122)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:36 PM

133. I stated a fact, the press moved on

Live with it or not, I really could give two shits about it.

And the elite (the media is part of it) wish occupy was indeed dead.

Try this, find local camp and find out just how dead they are. I dare you. For that matter the same goes for each and every person claiming them are dead.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #133)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:18 PM

155. Fact: "The Press Moved On"

 

I am not entirely confident that I understand what you mean; however, if they do not "press" or "move" on me, I can live with whatever "the press" "moves on."

You will not find words written by me "wishing" for, or declaring the movement "dead." However, you will surely find words expressing skepticism with respect to the tactics employed by individuals who lack forethought and wisdom.

To persevere, moral legitimacy must be established and maintained at all costs.

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Response to Thaddeus Kosciuszko (Reply #155)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:18 PM

174. Cross roads, I will grant you that

But all social justice movements find themselves there... This too shall pass and people here will continue to declare it dead...like the women's movement before it, or labor, or civil right...well you get the picture.

Also the media is seldom friendly to grass roots movements. Huge clue as to why tea party was not (two weeks in) a grass root movement.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:19 AM

28. I don't think it is dead. But it will have move beyond the occupation phase

and expand its tactical playbook. it will also require some leadership and discipline to prevent the flag burners and rock throwers from being distractions. If you are right and it is dead then it has already done something nobody else has done which is make income inequality an issue in the msm.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:20 AM

31. Now that Koch industries has pulled their funding OWS is toast...

Last edited Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:55 AM - Edit history (1)

Adding sarcasm balloons. My apologies for those that thought I was serious.

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Response to think (Reply #31)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:36 AM

60. I have NO idea what the purpose of this comment is

Could you please explain?

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Response to LiberalEsto (Reply #60)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:41 AM

67. Sorry. I was being sarcastic. Koch Industries bought and paid for the Tea Party

And with the help of Faux News and other unknown wealthy entities they helped shape the positive image of the Tea Party and made sure it was not tarnished.

OWS gets very little support especially from the 1% and the media which are actively working to discredit OWS and paint them in as horrid an unflattering light as possible.

The disparity between $$ support and propaganda support is ENORMOUS.

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Response to think (Reply #67)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:43 AM

70. thank you, think!

This thread is so trollish that I've having a hard time telling the pros from the cons.

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Response to LiberalEsto (Reply #70)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:46 AM

73. I should have floated some sarcasm balloons. Will do next time ;)

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Response to think (Reply #67)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 11:25 AM

226. yup and amazingly

Despite having very few events that gets much past the 100 person marker the media continues to treat them with absurd levels of relevence and continues to give them seperate responses to the state of the union address.

And rather than people here all boosting for OWS we have a clutch of anti-OWS sorts here constantly deriding, scorning, and dismissing them. (though usually dismissals are done quietly)

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:21 AM

33. Can someone explain this premature wailing to me?

Frankly I'd be more worried if OWS was still doing exactly the same things as back in October.

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Response to JHB (Reply #33)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:23 AM

36. Yes because being shut down and made irrevalent is a much better outcome.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #36)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:33 AM

56. Bookmarking

If we never hear from OWS again, or from people who were motivated by it, I'll give you my apologies for questioning your insightful analysis. Big plate of crow, smothered in "I was a jackass" sauce.

Will you do the same if they or their direct legacy do surface again?

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Response to JHB (Reply #56)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:48 AM

75. They will surface into election 12, embarrassing the left and going into their death spiral.

I don't disagree with that.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #75)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:39 PM

136. This is so revealing of your true intentions

It's not even funny.



This message brought to you by a neo-liberal member of the right wing.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #136)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:09 PM

150. If I'm a member of the right wing....

....then you are a respected journalist. I think we know, deep in our hearts, that neither of those accusations are true.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #150)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:19 PM

156. LOL!

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #150)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:14 PM

173. Your post hails from the neo lib corner of the DNC

That be right wing.

Sorry to burst that bubble.

Have a good day with your delusion that it is dead ok.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #173)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:24 PM

175. Oh Nadin...

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #173)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 04:38 PM

188. I call them "conservaposts"

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #75)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:51 PM

139. Bully for you. Cheers.

I find your excessive certainty unconvincing.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:21 AM

34. I disagree. Without OWS, the term "the 99%" would have never entered current political doscourse.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:25 AM

39. You say "they." What "they"? Who are "they"? I think that's the problem.

There was no "they" to talk with.

Since there wasn't a "they," then it must have been that no one volunteered to step up and take on the mantle of the OWS movement.

Then to make matters worse, the OWS movement got labeled with what some of the crazies did at OWS encampments, like throwing condoms at minor Catholic girls, rape, murder, etc. Much like the Tea Party got blamed for the wackos at TP events packing heat, or gleefully carrying signs showing Obama dressed as an African witchdoctor.

It's a danger when you have a loose group of people having protests where just anyone can show up and become affiliated with teh group just by being there.

Still, I think OWS was HUGELY successful. Obama and others can't say "fairness" enough. It has caused millions to think of "fairness," when they think of govt policies. It brought home to people the crux of the matter: not envy of the wealthy, but fairness in the system. I am very proud and in awe of those who first took to the streets and parks. They did something for our country that speeches and politicians can't do. I personally believe that the OWS message will last much longer than the TP's message.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:25 AM

41. We're dead????

How come nobody told us until now? Sheesh, had we known we wouldn't have shown up last night to protest Santorum. And we wouldn't have gone to the trouble of scheduling a series of public teach-ins. We certainly wouldn't have bothered with the effort to partner with single-issue groups that share one or two of our many concerns. Goodness, now what are we supposed to do with all the signs we've been painting?

Sorry to disappoint, but we ain't anywhere near dead.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:28 AM

43. LOL!

Wishful thinking on your part.

OWS is still alive. To paraphrase Mark Twain, 'The reports of (OWS's) death are greatly exaggerated'.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)


Response to backscatter712 (Reply #44)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:39 AM

66. That was uncalled for.

Your unwarranted anger shows that you have deeper issues about OWS than you are willing to admit.

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Response to randome (Reply #66)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:47 AM

74. *PLONK*. But thank you for your remote psychoanalysis.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #74)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 03:32 AM

213. I noticed the truth is almost always "uncalled for" according to the Neo-Lib Right wingers that have

infiltrated the Democratic party. Sometimes it is just like talking to a Republican from the early nineties, sometimes it is exactly the same because many in our party now would have (or actually have) been attracted to the early nineties Republican platform.

These could be the same people if I closed my eyes and went back 20 years.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:29 AM

45. The right to assemble....

Its strength lies in the very fact that it happened.

Back to the Orange revolution in the Ukraine which overturned a dishonest election to the middle eastern revolutions the assemblies of hundreds of thousands showed their strength and personality - the very acts of assembling to protest whatever was prevalent at the time.

The OWS movements in America needed no explicit message or nominated personality. The assemblies themselves - hundreds of them - WERE the messages and the personalities. And they resonated. Loudly and clearly.

The next time they will assemble will be on the first Tuesday of November next. At that time their messages and their leaders will be more discernible.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:30 AM

47. Disagree strongly!

It's an evolving movement.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:30 AM

49. Joe I have seen you on several posts with the anti-occupy stance what gives?? Sounds like you are

trying to convice others that the occupy movement isn't really getting their message across for some strange reason..

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Response to NewEngland4Obama (Reply #49)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:36 AM

59. Remember during the buildup to Iraq, when we all screamed , there's no WMD!!'...

And when none was found, the rw said ' well NOBODY could have seen THIS coming'....that's how this feels...there were a few of us who saw that this movement was close to going off the rails from the beginning. As this continues, and more shit like throwing condoms at catholic school girls, or hitting cops with bricks, get attributed to OWS, then the movement becomes more and more of a net loss for our side.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #59)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:03 PM

144. So what exactly are YOU doing?

What are you doing besides wailing on an Internet message forum?

I understand all your points, I've made them myself in the past, but the truth is that people doing dopey things will always be with us, and when they're not the other side really does have ratfuckers to pick up the slack. You have to fight against that, but when stuff like that happens crying about doom does absolutely jack.

So do you do jack, Joe, or do you do something real?

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Response to NewEngland4Obama (Reply #49)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:37 AM

62. +1000! nt

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Response to NewEngland4Obama (Reply #49)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:20 PM

95. That's *exactly* what he's doing.

He's been doing it from the beginning.

It's all been explained to him (and others playing the exact same game) numerous times. Joe's "ignorance" is wilful.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:32 AM

52. OWS has inspired many spin-off movements.

So even if all the original encampments pack up and go home, people have been activated for a generation, and they can carry on for the next 50 years without being called OWS.

Anyways it's not dead yet.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:32 AM

54. OWS LIVES. And still upstages Teabagger rhetoric.

 

Since 1%, 99% is on the tip of everyones tongue, and income inequality is the topic enduring, whether folks get cold or not is rather moot.

I for one am glad we dont have a flock of OWS candidates. Teh teabaggers were ill prepared. ANd largely a laughing stock.

I also am glad they didnt make ridiculous, impossible to live up to claims of their vitality, entrenchment in society and longevity.

The fact that OWS has ALWAYS been met with bombs and blackwater zeal, gives those not violent back, cover from those that are.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:36 AM

61. "The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." Mark Twain

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:37 AM

63. The picture of them burning the flag last week

was the nail in the coffin. It may not be important to some on DU but it does matter to the vast majority of the middle class. If you don't have the support from the middle class you are dead. You all can blame some outside agitators if you want, but I haven't seen anyone from the OWS movement refuting it.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #63)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:41 AM

68. Yet, actions have continued across the country.

Campaigns are still being held, classes are still be held, changes are still being made.

In cities and towns across the country, they care much more about the positive and active impact Occupy is having on their lives than the public image. Occupy is not a monolith national organization. There is essentially no connection in local Occupy movements and what happened in Oakland. Participants and recipients of Occupy help and support understand this.

Setting that aside, I haven't seen the flag-burning get much play or notice outside the blogosphere.

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Response to morningfog (Reply #68)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:49 AM

76. I agree with you about the flag burning.

It doesn't seem to have gotten much attention anywhere else.

But that's the problem with no leadership -no one can step up and say this action, or any of the other negative actions, should not be associated with OWS.

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Response to doc03 (Reply #63)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:49 AM

77. OWS is not a middle class movement and they are not running for public office.


If the movement wanted to burn flags to make a statement, they would be doing it on Wall Street, not in some corner of Oakland.

What do you want movement people to tell you? That people are not angry? Sorry, they are angry.



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Response to doc03 (Reply #63)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:10 PM

151. Yeah that huge middle class huh

 

there must be hundreds of them out there

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Response to doc03 (Reply #63)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:55 PM

165. The Corporate Media certainly won't allow anyone from OWS to refute it.

At least not on corporate-owned airwaves.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:37 AM

64. LOL. The group GREW, it didn't shrivel, after the first eviction.

And despite what you think, a national movement WAS based around horizontality. Actually, it's global not just national.



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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:37 AM

65. ah yes - the old "must have leaders" mantra ...

... never any lack of authoritarians around here to sing that song. As if "leaders" had a particular good track record for not eagerly joining the 1% as soon as the Oligarchs dangled some goodies they're way.

As for the poster seeming to imply that Koch bros funded OWS - eh? wot? because they were not singing hosannah's for Obama?

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Response to bread_and_roses (Reply #65)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:51 AM

79. Sorry I was being sarcastic about Koch Industries. My bad for the misunderstanding

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:42 AM

69. In Spring, flowers emerge

The Daffodils
by William Wordsworth

I wandered lonely as a cloud
That floats on high o'er vales and hills,
When all at once I saw a crowd,
A host, of golden daffodils;
Beside the lake, beneath the trees,
Fluttering and dancing in the breeze.

Continuous as the stars that shine
And twinkle on the Milky Way,
They stretched in never-ending line
Along the margin of a bay:
Ten thousand saw I at a glance,
Tossing their heads in sprightly dance.

The waves beside them danced, but they
Out-did the sparkling leaves in glee:
A Poet could not but be gay,
In such a jocund company:
I gazed—and gazed—but little thought
What wealth the show to me had brought:

For oft, when on my couch I lie
In vacant or in pensive mood,
They flash upon that inward eye
Which is the bliss of solitude;
And then my heart with pleasure fills,
And dances with the daffodils.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:44 AM

72. Your concern is very moving

.........

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:50 AM

78. sorry... we are not dead

but you keep saying that.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:54 AM

80. OWS has already succeeded

A year ago, during the worst jobs crisis in decades, the only thing Washington and the media wanted to talk about was the deficit, and how the only solution was to get the poor and middle class to sacrifice more.

Now -- thanks to the success of OWS in the fall -- we are going to spend the rest of the year talking about issues like income inequality and tax fairness.

This year's election is going to be about REAL economic issues and how to improve life for the 99% in this country. Regardless of what happens with OWS going forward, we have them to thank for changing the conversation.

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Response to EarlG (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:02 PM

84. +1000

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Response to EarlG (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:03 PM

85. Agree.

I wish OWS could reach its full potential and go far beyond 'changing the conversation'. But right now, that seems like a pipe dream.

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Response to EarlG (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:08 PM

89. Well stated /nt

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Response to EarlG (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:36 PM

100. Well said EarlG

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Response to EarlG (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:48 PM

104. Exactly!

OWS changed the dynamic of the upcoming election from the repub talking points on debt and deficit to REAL issues affecting the majority of the public.

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Response to EarlG (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:01 PM

109. But but but

it is DEAD...cuz I say so and I am the Ruler of 5 other worlds including a water world and a pony world! Series!!!

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Response to Rex (Reply #109)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:45 PM

202. Bill Oreilly rules another 5 worlds

Remember he said the movement was dead way last year on his stupid show.

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Response to EarlG (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:02 PM

113. +99%

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Response to EarlG (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 06:12 PM

190. +1

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:56 AM

81. This week's false reports of famous deaths include Eddie Murphy, Drake and OWS

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:58 AM

82. great idea-poor execution but......

every movement should learn from their mistakes. this movement needs to refocus their mission and make sure they identify the provocateurs.

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Response to madrchsod (Reply #82)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:01 PM

83. And denouncing the provocateurs is also a must.

But that requires someone to be in charge.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:03 PM

86. You could not be more wrong.

Just this morning I listened to a panel discussing the Susan Komen mistakes of the past week and the resulting public relations mess. The panel members were referring to the fact they had to soften/change their position because they were "Occupied".

When something drops into conversation and common usage and everyone knows the reference - THEY WIN.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:04 PM

87. Crazy talk, wait till spring is here

OWS is just getting started

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #87)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:06 PM

88. Why wait for spring, when winter is mild....that shouldn't matter either, because OWS...

...promised their naysayers they would remain strong through whatever weather, blizzards or heat waves.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #88)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:13 PM

92. Rather than repeat it all or add to it...

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #88)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:17 PM

94. 40 degrees is still pretty cold to be camping out

70 is different


and if you have not noticed many OWS camps are still there, just not in the same numbers as they will be in a few months


and then when the collage kids get out of school for the summer......




OWS is just getting started

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:10 PM

90. I don't think that OWS is dead, but I also don't think 2012 will be a big year for it

 

And that's not really because of anything OWS has or hasn't done. It's because of the presidential election.

The election is going to suck up a lot of the oxygen in the room. It will be hard for a non-partisan movement to gain more traction in a year when partisan politics will be at the forefront from now until November.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:14 PM

93. unrec for ridiculousness

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)


Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #97)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:45 PM

103. Thank you for your concern.

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #97)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:56 PM

143. Shame you buy the propaganda.

 



How many of the people that have 'shit all over the place' or committed actual acts of vandalism have been arrested?

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #97)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:08 PM

148. Thanks, Bill! Give us a shout-out on the next Factor.

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Response to greytdemocrat (Reply #97)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:03 PM

167. I've been down at Occupy DC a number of times

bringing food, water and supplies.

I have not seen any evidence of pissing and crapping on the streets, as you so sweetly put it.

Your source of information is questionable, to say the least.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:32 PM

98. Thanks for your concern

Your JAQing* really helps the anti-OWS cause. Bunches.

*Just Asking Questions - Like did Glenn Beck rape and kill a woman in 1990? Keep JAQing.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:35 PM

99. Not that I agree with this OP's premise, but.......

the Occupy movement MIGHT eventually die. I don't think that it IS dead yet, but it possible. We'll just happen to see what happens when the weather (and the political conversation) warms up later this year. Remember that masses haven't turned their full attention to political thought yet.

What WON'T die however is the cry for economic justice and democracy. IF the Occupy movement dies, I fully expect it to be replaced by a MUCH more radical and stronger (and ACTUAL) anticapitalist movement. The ONLY way this replacement for Occupy is not inevitable is if the capitalists change their MO and that ain't happening. Capitalists (and for that matter capitalism) CAN'T change it's MO because inequalty is inherent in the capitalist system.

So to stay relavent, Occupy will have to become more overtly anticapitalist or it WILL die. To be replaced by a more truly anticapitalist grouping.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:42 PM

101. Your concern is noted (again)

and promptly ignored.



RL

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:44 PM

102. Thank you for your concern.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:54 PM

105. Some people just can NOT let it go.

I find it amusing.

If OWS was really dead,
or insignificant,
or ineffective,
then WHY the daily obsession?

OWS has clearly had a deep and frightening impact on your personal psyche,
to the point where you and a handful of other Deniers would spend their Sunday morning
obsessing about something they insist is "dead" or "insignificant".

The paradox is that
if you really believed what you stated in your OP,
you wouldn't bother wasting your time composing the OP.

The harder and more frequently you DENY the relevance of OWS
the clearer it becomes that OWS is very important,
AND very frightening to you.


Keep posting this phony bluster,
but others who are actually THERE are laughing at your futile protestations.









The biggest mistake (intentional?) is your transparent and failed attempt to equate OWS with the Occupy Encampments.
That is but one aspect of a varied and widespread movement.

As you, and EVERYONE else can plainly see from the photos posted above,
OWS is NOT "dead".

At this point,
it would be much better if you would post a humble acknowledgment that your predictions were wrong,
and then let the matter drop. To continually post these denials only damages your credibility,
but does give most of us a good Sunday Morning laugh.



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #105)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:57 PM

107. I've seen people post their own personal fantasy

on what they would like see happen to OWS...thankfully we live in the real world and not their sad fantasies.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #105)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:54 PM

141. Nailage +1

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #105)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:07 PM

169. +100000000000000000000000000 eom

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Response to tledford (Reply #169)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:08 PM

171. Gesundeit!

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 12:56 PM

106. Your post is your own fantasy and nothing more.

OWS is a bigger success then Kim K.

Sadly, people like you cannot deal with it.

Oh well...endure on.

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Response to Rex (Reply #106)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:01 PM

110. What is a 'people like me'?

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #110)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:02 PM

112. Someone that wanted OWS to fail from the beginning.

Have fun with failure.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)


Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:07 PM

116. Thanks for your help.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:08 PM

117. If it's so dead, then why do the police keep arresting them?

I'll tell you why. Occupy is being very effective and the powers that be are afraid of it so they have become hard fisted. That's why. It's far from dead. Come back and post when you have some facts.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #117)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:10 PM

119. Being arrested for protesting public camping rules?

Being arrested for trying to take over a public building for their own use?

That's what OWS is all about?

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Response to randome (Reply #119)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:16 PM

123. If they were just homeless people squatting someplace because they have no where to go,

no one would pay attention to them. They are effectively making their point and that's why all the intimidating tactics, including arrests, are being used against them.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #123)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:18 PM

124. Outside a few corners of the blogosphere...

...most media groups and personalities AREN'T paying them any attention. Where is Stewart, Colbert, Maddow, Olberman? There is a reason they pay scant attention to OWS.

What point is OWS trying to make when they try to equate living in a public park with protesting economic inequality?

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Response to randome (Reply #124)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:32 PM

130. Stewart and Colbert are comedians and will comment on what is funny.

Last edited Sun Feb 5, 2012, 08:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Keith Olbermann always starts his show about Occupy when he's there. He has been sick for the last two weeks so his show has had fill in hosts that don't pay attention to it. But if you are talking about the MSM, and Rachel unfortunately has joined that team, they seem to ignore what are inconvenient truths to them, like for instance, the genocide going on in Syria now, or the civil war erupting in Iraq, which we left in a mess, or the melting of ice caps in Antarctica that are calving mega ice bergs due to global warming. Those events are getting first priority news coverage across the world but not here. So whether the media covers it or not really doesn't matter because they are nothing but propaganda for the industrialists and Wall Street any way.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #130)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:50 PM

203. Well said Cleita

The Internet is the media, as far I'm concerned.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #123)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:33 PM

131. Hahahahahahahahahahanahahahahaha

Sorry that was obnoxious of me, but that's really fucking funny.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #131)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:36 PM

134. My pleasure. Do laugh. Here's something else for you to laugh at.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #123)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:07 PM

170. You go, Cleita!

+100!

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Response to Cleita (Reply #117)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:47 PM

177. Zombies.

I can't think of any other explanation without getting my post deleted.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:23 PM

126. Gee, Joe

I would have thought you were one of the biggest OWS supporters on DU.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #126)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:39 PM

135. I do have that kind of swagger sometimes..




I don't hate OWS, I hate what it's become and the fact that some here don't want to have a real conversation about its failure to get to the next level.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #135)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:50 PM

138. Not living up to your timetable is not 'failure'.

 

The only chance of OWS 'dying' is if the paradigm changes dramatically and the ultra-wealthy give up their control of the Government and the Media.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #138)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:05 PM

145. So you're saying, in effect, that nothing will ever change?

First of all, the 1% are not afraid of OWS. They are all sitting on their beach front properties sipping margaritas.

Secondly, the 1% will NEVER give up their control. The ONLY means of righting the economic wrongs in this country are in the hands of our legislators since they make the laws that enable loopholes and fraud to thrive.

I know many with OWS say the legislators are only puppets but, what the hell, does anyone really think the 1% will stop playing with their puppets because OWS told them to 'behave better'?

Nothing will change until we force the legislators to change the system. They are the only strategic target.

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Response to randome (Reply #145)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:23 PM

160. You still don't know what OWS is, do you?

 


Let's put it this way: Things will escalate until there is profound change.

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Response to randome (Reply #145)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:51 PM

164. "Nothing will change until we force the legislators to change the system"

And how do we do this? When all, or most, of the legislators are under the thumb of the corporate class? When DLC Democrats install Blue Dog and DINO candidates to run in elections? How has this strategy worked out so far?

Hey, I've got an idea. Why not start a grassroots movement where we start to change the conversation to FORCE those legislators to eventually address the inequalities and corruption? Be persistent enough that they even start using our language? And have it be leaderless so it can't be brought down by personal attacks or scandal?

We could call it the Repossession Movement or something like that.

Or do you have any better ideas?

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Response to LiberalLovinLug (Reply #164)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:05 PM

168. Again, you think telling everyone to 'behave better' is going to FORCE them to listen?

I don't see that happening.

The recent Internet blackout had a profound, direct effect. The outrage over the Komen foundation had a profound, direct effect.

Maybe OWS needs to go much MORE underground and use the Internet more effectively.

I don't have all the answers. All I know is that squabbling over 'camping rights' and side issues like that are not going to change anything other than 'the conversation' -all well and good but not nearly enough to trigger systemic change.

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again: it isn't stealing when the legislators say, 'Here. Take what you want.'

They are still the key to changing the system, like it or not.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:27 PM

128. "How Swedes and Norwegians Broke the Power of the '1 Percent'"

I thought was interesting ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002268088

"Scandinavian workers realized that, electoral “democracy” was stacked against them, so nonviolent direct action was needed to exert the power for change."

"While many of us are working to ensure that the Occupy movement will have a lasting impact, it’s worthwhile to consider other countries where masses of people succeeded in nonviolently bringing about a high degree of democracy and economic justice. Sweden and Norway, for example, both experienced a major power shift in the 1930s after prolonged nonviolent struggle. They “fired” the top 1 percent of people who set the direction for society and created the basis for something different."

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #128)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:30 PM

129. Now there's food for thought.

Thanks for posting.

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Response to randome (Reply #129)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 05:54 PM

189. The worst (I think) OWS faces is MSM ... how to get around the biased 1% reporting

by MSM ... that IMO is a real problem. Too many people come home and just flip the Tee Vee onto whatever news source and often it's going to be corporate media. ... and they will often show OWS in the worst way possible. MSM certainly doesn't want OWS to be successful.

We did have a chance with MSNBC at one time, but with Comcast running the show now, I think it's going to be biased against OWS ... as much as they can without losing the liberal/progressive viewers ... and some have already left.

And some democrats I know think OWS is all about riots. ... but that's what they get from the Tee Vee.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #189)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 06:45 PM

194. 'If it bleeds, it leads'.

That's why OWS needs leaders. Without them, it will forever be marginalized by MSM. Some say they don't want or need MSM coverage but then turn around and decry the coverage.

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Response to randome (Reply #194)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:02 PM

195. I agree! It's the perception by the masses that needs to be managed.

We live in a hierarchical society. Although I would like to see it different, the majority in this country are used to that, leadership ... without that, they see it as unfocused, no matter how focused in reality OWS might be. It's all about perception management. MSM will exploit that weakness.

I haven't read in detail other than the article I sent on how the Swedes and Norwegians managed the leadership ... but my gut feeling is they had focused leadership ... otherwise IMO organizations/movements fracture in different directions. Certainly MLK used focused leadership, for example.

Perhaps a term is "focused collective leadership." Now, that may well be going on, but that needs to somehow get out on MSM. Maybe in the spring it will.


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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:35 PM

132. I know "occupy" is a still a big hobby for some people around here.

But for 99% of us, it has been over for months.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #132)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:52 PM

140. "But for 99% of us, it has been over for months." Please feel free to explain /nt

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Response to think (Reply #140)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:09 PM

149. Not much to explain.

No one is really paying attention. I would venture to guess to that most people would be quite surprised to learn that the whole occupy thing is still "ongoing"

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #149)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:13 PM

152. I agree. With the help of the MSM most are oblivious to the reality around them.

But everyone following OWS knows that winter has slowed things down and spring is near...

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #149)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 08:00 PM

204. That's ridiculous

I watch corporate media every day, and every day on some show there is reference to the Occupy Movement. Your reality doesn't match the country's, even with a biased media.

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Response to tritsofme (Reply #132)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:54 PM

142. So you are a self elected spokesman for the 99%?

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Response to L0oniX (Reply #142)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:06 PM

147. Me purporting to speak for 99% of us is no more silly than you doing the same.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 01:45 PM

137. Profound ignorance of what OWS is

 

is the only explanation for making such a ridiculous statement.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:15 PM

153. You...

wish.

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Response to The Midway Rebel (Reply #153)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:21 PM

158. spot on /nt

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:18 PM

154. OWS will come out of hibernation in the spring stronger than ever.

Mostly just to piss you off.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:20 PM

157. "I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block..

"I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: 'I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action'; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a 'more convenient season.' Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

- Martin Luther King, Jr, "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:23 PM

159. TY. Outstanding!

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:27 PM

161. And that's what commies say about "liberals".........

Some people will mouth the phrases, but when push comes to shove, they're MORE invested in the current system (and "order") than in justice and democracy.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #161)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:00 PM

166. That analogy doesn't work. We've seen Marxism exist in several countries and don't like it.

We dont like it because rather than create justice and democracy, it seems worse than what we have now.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #166)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 10:54 PM

209. We've seen STALINISM exist in several countries........

We haven't seen anything close to real Marxism since the early 20s in Russia.

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:45 PM

176. I cannot recommend this post enough.

In fact I cannot recommend it at all. Too bad. Great reply.

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:52 PM

179. Centrists, moderates, incrementalists, sensible woodchucks... take note

This is truth.

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:57 PM

180. As much as OWS doesn't want to be co-opted, it somehow becomes okay...

...to co-opt the civil rights movement for OWS.

They are 2 totally separate things and I think it does a disservice to the civil rights movement to say OWS is comparable.

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Response to randome (Reply #180)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 04:34 PM

187. MLK did not see these as separate issues.

Our nation's adjustment to a new mode of thinking will be facilitated if we realize that for nearly forty years two groups in our society have already been enjoying a guaranteed income. Indeed, it is a symptom of our confused social values that these two groups turn out to be the richest and the poorest. The wealthy who own securities have always had an assured income; and their polar opposite, the relief client, has been guaranteed an income, however miniscule, through welfare benefits.

John Kenneth Galbraith has estimated that $20 billion a year would effect a guaranteed income, which he describes as "not much more than we will spend the next fiscal year to rescue freedom and democracy and religious liberty as these are defined by 'experts' in Vietnam."

The contemporary tendency in our society is to base our distribution on scarcity, which has vanished, and to compress our abundance into the overfed mouths of the middle and upper classes until they gag with superfluity. If democracy is to have breadth of meaning, it is necessary to adjust this inequity. It is not only moral, but it is also intelligent. We are wasting and degrading human life by clinging to archaic thinking.

The curse of poverty has no justification in our age. It is socially as cruel and blind as the practice of cannibalism at the dawn of civilization, when men ate each other because they had not yet learned to take food from the soil or to consume the abundant animal life around them. The time has come for us to civilize ourselves by the total, direct and immediate abolition of poverty.
--The Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 04:02 PM

183. MLK, Jr., nails it yet again. n/t

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:04 PM

197. Excellent!!! n/t

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 10:46 PM

208. Wow

 

I read "Letters" in the early '70s, had forgotten about them. This is so relevaant and powerful. Excuse me while I pick my jaw up off the floor, I seem th have dropped it.

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 04:27 AM

215. Hear hear. nt.

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Response to dana_b (Reply #157)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 09:01 AM

221. it's almost as if it was written today,

about the many who claim to love what OWS stands for, but, gee, it's failed.
what a perfect quote.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 02:30 PM

162. If you think they just went away, you are not paying attention

Many of the camps have now rented larger space to hold meetings and use as a base. It is quieter now, but growing. And in the spring, all hell breaketh loose, I suspect.

I believe the ouster has helped them. Kept them safer and warm. Meanwhile, they have been networking and planning which is easier inside.

I wouldn't write that obit yet.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 03:58 PM

181. Well it's a damn shame you aren't out there

to tell them all how it's done!

If they had only had you for a leader OWS could have been something... It could have been a contender.


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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 04:00 PM

182. Hardly

OWS is quite alive and isn't going away.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 04:05 PM

184. No offense, but I think wishful thinking should be kept separate from reality

Let's see how dead OWS is come Summertime...

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 04:20 PM

185. the movement has not committed suicide.

if it had, it would be dead.

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Response to barbtries (Reply #185)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 04:28 PM

186. Subtlety is a lost art I guess.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Reply #186)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 08:34 AM

220. hyperbole however

is apparently alive and well.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 06:44 PM

193. Good luck with that

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 07:03 PM

196. ........




The anti-OWS barrage is getting lamer and lamer.


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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 08:24 PM

205. Complete and utter horseshit. Quit pushing MSM lies.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 10:34 PM

207. It is telling

 

...that the Smithsonian has requested the "Tent of Dreams" and other objects from Occupy D.C.. Enjoy your time on the wrong side of history, Joe, and that goes for the rest of the Occupy detractors.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Sun Feb 5, 2012, 11:40 PM

212. Oh get a grip.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 04:23 AM

214. Ari Fleischer called...

... he wants to know if you're available to assist him in guiding Komen in for a nice crash and burn landing -- I told him you were busy counseling the OWS movement right now, but you'll get back to him when you can.

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Response to Mr_Jefferson_24 (Reply #214)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 07:20 AM

219. !

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 05:50 AM

216. Again with this "leader" stuff...



<sigh>

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 10:57 AM

223. We often interpret a thing as to better fit our own opinion of that thing.

We often interpret a thing as to better fit our own opinions of that thing.
I'm sure Mr. Twain has no comment about the early exaggeration of a death.


"that there (sic) message was convoluted..."
I suppose those things which are obvious, easy and stark to open eyes may indeed seem convoluted to a dogmatic and intractable opinion.

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Response to Joe the Revelator (Original post)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 11:10 AM

224. Even though you're assumption has no merit,

I did get a laugh at how you cleverly added the "It's a shame". Personally I'm glad to see that there exists fear of the OWS movement, and it's consequences to the PTB. As long as I keep seeing posts such as this, I will know that OWS is effective.

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Response to NorthCarolina (Reply #224)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 10:19 PM

227. The only fear I have is that they get there stink onto democrats this cycle....

Face it, because of their tactics, the average independent voter has not embraced occupy. And that is a shame.

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