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Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:26 PM

As a white christian male I don't feel privileged by any means

It is often astonishing that people can make such broad assumptions, but I suppose it is human nature to assume the grass is greener on the other side. Most people when I talk to don't even know I was born and raised as a Christian. People don't treat me differently if I point it out frankly, because they know me Harmony Blue first and foremost not that I am Christian. My father was white and my mother is white, and yet I grew up in a very diverse part of southern Los Angeles county. So, diverse I would say that I was only a handful of students that was white at the elementrary school I attended. My classmates didn't treat me differently as I was Harmony Blue their good friend and classmate. Whether in class or the playground, us kids simply didn't see it as one having privilege over another or being discriminated against based on race or gender. As a child I grew up in a environment where being white I was a minority, so when I discovered that was not so it was a culture shock from my view. Still, I was aware that discrimination was real as I pretty much lived, and witnessed the L.A. riots. But to my friends I was still Harmony blue and my friends were friends. My age group is the first wave of millennials where we don't see gender or race/ethnicity differences. My age group (I was born in 83) also is sadly called "Reagan babies" which doesn't feel like a privilege at all! Anyways, my age group saw the transition our world made with the fall of Berlin Wall, the live footage of Apache's firing Hellfire's with Desert Storm and the coming of age of the Internet.

In high school most of my class mates in honors classes were female and we often worked on many projects (stock market buying and selling) and I didn't think less of my classmates because of gender. I didn't feel more privileged over my female colleagues in class as we all earned the same grade on the assignments we worked on. With regards to tests I didn't always fair better than my female class mates. It was simply on merit and ideas.

Both my parents worked, as did my grand parents. In my family, and culture, traditional gender roles were not so clear as my grandmother was often tasked with raising and culling the farm animals while my grandfather was the one who did the farming and gathering. My mother worked just as many hours as my father did, and as a result,traditional gender roles I never grew up with. Sometimes, my mother cooked and sometimes my father did the cooking. If my mother was at work my father would do the cleaning and vice versa. It was a team effort, and it wasn't about gender roles as I was taught to do all the tasks (cleaning dishes, vacuuming, yard work). My parents taught me to be as gender neutral as possible because my father's parents were this way. My mother was raised only by her mother. But my mother's mom pretty much had to take on both gender roles of going to work multiple jobs and work at home which is what many single parents face.

Advocacy right groups lecturing/talking down to us or pointing out some type of privilege one group has over another simply doesn't resonate with my age group or the younger millennials. It is almost futile as they grew up with a world enlightened by the internet where gender, race, ethnicity, or even disability, is almost impossible to discern. These advocacy groups were forged in different times, but with the internet I think they are having a hard time adapting or understanding how connected the younger generation is to the internet. Basically, what matters is the ideas, merits and words spewed on the net, and that equality is more important to achieve than preaching about advocacy or perceived privilege (Millennials are turned off by religion so if it comes off as preachy forget about it lol). The internet already gives a glimpse of what equality looks like, so from our view being inclusively in favor of equality is what it is all about. Advocacy about some system holding down a minority or privilege of a majority simply misses the mark with anyone 30 years or younger. If you want to beat that drum, you can, but it isn't having the effect desired as we are after all in a brave new world with the internet.

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Arrow 152 replies Author Time Post
Reply As a white christian male I don't feel privileged by any means (Original post)
Harmony Blue Mar 2013 OP
we can do it Mar 2013 #1
NYC_SKP Mar 2013 #2
Warpy Mar 2013 #5
LiberalLoner Apr 2013 #84
CreekDog Mar 2013 #8
NYC_SKP Mar 2013 #11
hfojvt Apr 2013 #56
CreekDog Apr 2013 #64
hfojvt Apr 2013 #86
CreekDog Apr 2013 #102
hfojvt Apr 2013 #131
CreekDog Apr 2013 #147
hfojvt Apr 2013 #149
CreekDog Apr 2013 #150
ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #91
Purplehazed Apr 2013 #132
Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #140
Iris Mar 2013 #3
Harmony Blue Mar 2013 #9
FreeState Mar 2013 #28
Harmony Blue Apr 2013 #74
kwassa Apr 2013 #108
Kali Mar 2013 #31
Happyhippychick Mar 2013 #4
Warpy Mar 2013 #6
Comrade Grumpy Mar 2013 #12
Warpy Mar 2013 #14
Comrade Grumpy Mar 2013 #15
Gormy Cuss Apr 2013 #43
MattBaggins Apr 2013 #69
Gormy Cuss Apr 2013 #73
MattBaggins Apr 2013 #77
Gormy Cuss Apr 2013 #79
dsc Mar 2013 #7
Harmony Blue Mar 2013 #13
dsc Mar 2013 #18
Squinch Mar 2013 #29
NCTraveler Apr 2013 #70
Harmony Blue Apr 2013 #75
NCTraveler Apr 2013 #80
CreekDog Mar 2013 #10
Harmony Blue Mar 2013 #16
CreekDog Mar 2013 #19
bettyellen Mar 2013 #20
intheflow Mar 2013 #24
cali Apr 2013 #60
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #17
brush Mar 2013 #37
antigone382 Apr 2013 #109
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #112
Harmony Blue Apr 2013 #121
kwassa Apr 2013 #123
magellan Mar 2013 #21
frazzled Apr 2013 #42
magellan Apr 2013 #47
Harmony Blue Apr 2013 #78
frazzled Apr 2013 #81
Tree-Hugger Apr 2013 #83
4 t 4 Apr 2013 #116
Robb Mar 2013 #22
JI7 Mar 2013 #23
Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #25
jazzimov Mar 2013 #26
noamnety Mar 2013 #27
FightForMichigan Mar 2013 #30
Exultant Democracy Mar 2013 #32
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #33
Heidi Apr 2013 #72
liberal_at_heart Apr 2013 #133
SheilaT Mar 2013 #34
dionysus Mar 2013 #38
eridani Apr 2013 #51
Sheldon Cooper Apr 2013 #58
SheilaT Apr 2013 #87
Major Nikon Apr 2013 #118
Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #35
Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #36
KarenS Apr 2013 #40
frazzled Apr 2013 #39
Iggo Apr 2013 #41
Scootaloo Apr 2013 #44
liberal_at_heart Apr 2013 #45
Comrade_McKenzie Apr 2013 #55
treestar Apr 2013 #66
Harmony Blue Apr 2013 #120
kwassa Apr 2013 #127
caraher Apr 2013 #145
liberal_at_heart Apr 2013 #134
lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #135
GaYellowDawg Apr 2013 #46
raccoon Apr 2013 #63
treestar Apr 2013 #67
Matariki Apr 2013 #94
kestrel91316 Apr 2013 #48
smirkymonkey Apr 2013 #117
blackspade Apr 2013 #49
FuzzyRabbit Apr 2013 #50
taught_me_patience Apr 2013 #52
Heidi Apr 2013 #53
Kalidurga Apr 2013 #54
sibelian Apr 2013 #57
quinnox Apr 2013 #61
Matariki Apr 2013 #95
Humanist_Activist Apr 2013 #59
Egalitarian Thug Apr 2013 #62
treestar Apr 2013 #65
Matariki Apr 2013 #96
el_bryanto Apr 2013 #68
NCTraveler Apr 2013 #71
Heidi Apr 2013 #88
NCTraveler Apr 2013 #89
kwassa Apr 2013 #105
NCTraveler Apr 2013 #107
kwassa Apr 2013 #110
NCTraveler Apr 2013 #114
Harmony Blue Apr 2013 #119
kwassa Apr 2013 #125
NCTraveler Apr 2013 #126
Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #136
Sheldon Cooper Apr 2013 #90
LanternWaste Apr 2013 #76
brewens Apr 2013 #82
steve2470 Apr 2013 #85
Matariki Apr 2013 #92
ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #93
Recursion Apr 2013 #97
octothorpe Apr 2013 #98
Heidi Apr 2013 #100
octothorpe Apr 2013 #101
gollygee Apr 2013 #103
Apophis Apr 2013 #99
Demit Apr 2013 #104
Algebra Palin Apr 2013 #106
Orsino Apr 2013 #111
LittleBlue Apr 2013 #113
Harmony Blue Apr 2013 #122
kwassa Apr 2013 #124
Rex Apr 2013 #115
Skip Intro Apr 2013 #128
MrSlayer Apr 2013 #129
Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #137
MrSlayer Apr 2013 #139
Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #141
MrSlayer Apr 2013 #142
Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #143
MrSlayer Apr 2013 #144
YoungDemCA Apr 2013 #130
Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #138
markpkessinger Apr 2013 #146
arely staircase Apr 2013 #148
dawg Apr 2013 #151
ChairmanAgnostic Apr 2013 #152

Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:27 PM

1. Well of course not.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:28 PM

2. In the end, we are all victims of the 1%. We are all in this together. (nt)

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:34 PM

5. Absolutely, but while it's more comfortable to cling to the fiction

that there is no gender, color, religious, ethnic, or even class entitlement, there is in all areas and we need to respect the fact that those people who fall outside any or even all of those areas have never experienced the entitlement we take for granted.

And yes, we are all victims of the 1%, our wages robbed for the last 40 years and then our jobs robbed to make them richer and richer.

That's the important thing to focus on. Still, recognizing the lack of entitlement for some groups is important.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #5)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:50 AM

84. +1 but my biggest hope is for us all to be allies and kind to each other

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:40 PM

8. for some reason, a number of white people, often male think that it's all equal now

that because they themselves have difficulties, face poverty, etc., that they are suddenly as disadvantaged as black people, who were not seen as viable for the presidency less than a decade ago, who were not allowed to marry the person of their choice just over 40 years ago, who were not allowed to be seen as full human beings just a half century ago in many parts of the USA.

or Native Americans who our own government sought to eliminate as an identifiable ethnic group just over 50 years ago.

or women who still make almost one third less than a male on average.

or non Christians who were tracked by the US government, sometimes imprisoned without trial --for not being Christian and for being Muslim.

of course it's all equal. once we passed some civil rights laws, all the non white people magically become equal to white people and we can now be angry whenever any non white person claims that society is slanted against them, especially against them. because white people are victims right?

who believes such crap?

you know who? people who don't know squat about their country's history.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:42 PM

11. It's not equal, never has been, never will be.

While we must never give up the fight for each and every injustice, we must also not let it distract us from what binds us together.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #8)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:33 AM

56. does anybody say it is equal?

When I say that there is no such thing as "white privilege" I do not by that mean that there is no such thing as discrimination.

My point is that discrimination against you does not thereby translate into privileges for me.

For one thing, it is rather absurd, isn't it, to call "not being discriminated against" a "privilege".

And for another thing, it does not materially make my own five mile slog any easier. Suppose I am walking five miles to school and back every day, and that there is also a black kid who walks the same five miles. Only he often gets stopped and frisked by racist cops on his way to school. Now we can be allies if he complains "man, I have to put up with some bullsh*t on my way to school every day." And any sensible person is gonna say "you sure do, that ain't right" and join the fight to end it.

But if the same person (or more likely his supposed advocates) points at me and says "you are privileged because you don't have to put up with the same bullsh*t that the black kids do", then I just became a non-ally. First of all, because you have not even relayed to me what sort of bullsh*t that that kid faces, you have just made an accusation about me, like I am doing something wrong by walking to school. Second of all, because I still have a long frigging walk every day which is hardly a picnic or some sort of joyride, and yet this business of "privilege" makes it sound like a limo takes me to school every day - which is clearly nonsense, but sure as hell would come much closer to fitting a reasonable definition of "privilege" than walking to school does. And third, I can see some black kids whose parents do give them a ride to school every day, and yet I am supposed to believe I have the privileges while I fugging walk?

So, with one, two, three, I am calling this nonsensical shibboleth of "white privilege" out on strikes and it needs to go back to the dugout and let the beloved community have a crack at the plate. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022244131

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #56)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:32 AM

64. they say there's no privilege so that's saying things are equal, is this herculian logic for you?



you either believe there is generally speaking, privilege of some sort or amount based on skin color.

or you believe that there isn't.

you're attempting to say there's no privilege, yet black folks are subject to more discrimination. those two ideas are not compatible.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #64)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:16 PM

86. Does Mr. Ware have a privilege?

His right leg got broken in an accident.

But since he is better off than the dog who got his two front paws cut off, he is actually privileged to only have one broken leg.


Just as my Herculean logic would say that it is absurd to tell somebody with a broken leg that they are "privileged" so it is absurd to tell lower class white people who are living in poverty or near poverty or with the threat of poverty that they are "privileged".

Especially since people do not live their lives "in general" any more than the per capita GDP of the USA makes me rich. "On average" household income is higher for WNH households than it is for black households, but some black households are well above the average and some WNH households are well below the average.

Again, it is absurd, and insulting, to call such people "privileged".

I don't know why that is so hard to understand.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #86)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 02:12 PM

102. you keep posting as if there's an even playing field regardless of race or gender and that's wrong

it doesn't mean all white people are employed, rich or whatever, but would their lot be worse if their circumstances were the same but they were nonwhite? There's a pretty good chance, statistically of exactly that.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #102)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 12:56 AM

131. I didn't say anthing about the playing field

I said that just because things are unequal, for example the inequality between a guy with one broken leg and a guy with two, that it is rather absurd to call a guy who has just broken his leg, privileged. Even though there is inequality, it would be absurd to tell a guy at a huge disadvantage that he is privileged.

As for an even playing field, of course there is not, but the un-evenness is far more economic than it is racial or especially gender. Consider the daughter of my graduate school roommate. She was born in India, and therefore is an immigrant, black and female. Yet as a Princeton graduate, I will be really surprised if she is not economically better off than any of my white nephews. Their supposed male and white privileges will be easily trumped by her economic ones. But what the heck, let's call them the privileged ones.

"Would their lot be worse?"

So they might have two broken legs instead of just one.

What a privilege it is to have a broken leg.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #131)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 11:07 PM

147. if everyone of a certain race had one less broken leg, it would be a privilege to be the other

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #147)

Wed Apr 3, 2013, 10:05 AM

149. "if everyone"

Once again you are in the absurd position of saying that a part time janitor is "privileged" and Tiger Woods and Oprah and Ellen Degeneres are not. But I only have to look at my black co-worker to see a black man who is better off than me, even though he too, works as a part-time janitor.

And I still would not consider having a broken leg to be a privilege.

But most of the people touting this notion of "privilege" are probably above the median income and working high status jobs.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #149)

Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:17 AM

150. No, that each has privilege of lacks it based on race

And when Tiger was an infant and the future janitor was an infant, who had the greater privilege based on race? Not Tiger.

Did Jackie Robinson have a racial disadvantage compared to poor white people? He sure did.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #56)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:08 PM

91. You actually say that?

Wow.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #56)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 12:59 AM

132. Well said! nt

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #8)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 01:28 AM

140. What white males need to do, to understand their privileged status is close their eyes....

and imagine....

Instead of being born as he was, he was born a dark skinned black baby - a girl. His parents are dark skinned black people. This means his parents experienced segregation, probably.

So the black baby...grows up in a household with parents who maybe have a grudge against society or whites.

The black baby goes to school. His grades are automatically lower...black children are graded differently. Also, girls get lower grades for the same papers as boys.

So we have a black child who has lower grades in elementary and junior high school. Same boy as the OP, only he's a black girl.

During puberty, walking to school, he is yelled at...called "cunt," "big titties," "woo woo," "hey, wanna good time?"

He graduates high school (again, for the same work, she now has lower grades). She will get into colleges, though, because of affirmative action...if her grades are decent enough. She is encouraged to focus on school counselor, education, or the like, for a career. She is not encouraged to go for the jobs that pay a lot of money.

When she graduates and applies for jobs, white HR people may seem uncomfortable around her sometimes. Still, she gets a job. She will automatically get paid slightly less, unless it's a union job. And she will think she is lucky to get the job, and not be aware she's paid less. She has been raised to be appreciative of anything she gets.

When she speaks, she is likely to be interrupted by a male. Until she reaches an expert level at something, her opinions are listened to but not highly regarded. Studies have shown that white males are listened to more often and more intently, and their ideas are more highly thought of.

She will not get certain jobs because she doesn't fit in. The workers there need someone they feel comfortable with...someone who will be one of the guys. One of them.

She retires. She gets less Social Security because she has been working for less money for 40 years than if she had been born a white male.

It's not the big things that went on in the past. It's the little things. People don't listen to you. Waiters don't seem to want to wait on you. You have to work harder than your co-worker white males to prove yourself. You are just.....not as important as a white male.

But there's a funny skit that Eddie Murphy did about this. I'll see if I can find it.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:31 PM

3. The difference between you and your friends who are not white and even you and the girls in your

group is that you could leave LA county and go pretty much anywhere you wanted without even thinking about it.

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Response to Iris (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:40 PM

9. Actually no, because

my parents were unable to move until they generated enough income to do so and we only moved under most dire of circumstances. Despite both parents working I was raised in a low middle class (just above poverty line) family.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:26 PM

28. I dont think the poster was talking about moving

but rather going, as in going to parts of town and being treated differently because visually you are white.

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Response to FreeState (Reply #28)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:53 AM

74. I lived in various parts of Los Angeles County (four areas)

and in all instances it was not true at all that me or my family had preferential treatment. At the same time we were not treated poorly because we were white either. When I was kid tensions were (and still are) high with the LAPD though with miniority communities but there were also a lot of gang activity in south central LA where I used to live.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #74)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:40 PM

108. Did you ever get pulled over for driving while black?

Many young black men I knew in Los Angeles were frequently pulled over by police, just to check them out. It was a common phenomenon. I read of one man joking that he knew he was getting old when the police stopped pulling him over.

You actually don't understand the concept of white privilege:

Here is what white people can expect, that minorities can't, from the famous Pegggy McIntosh piece.

ed.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html


1. I can, if I wish, arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area that I can afford and in which I would want to live.

3. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

4. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

5. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

6. When I am told about our national heritage or about civilization, I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

7. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

8. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

9. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods that fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can deal with my hair.

10. Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

11. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

12. I can swear, or dress in second-hand clothes or not answer letters without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.

13. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

14. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

15. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

16. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color, who constitute the worlds' majority, without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

17. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

18. I can be sure that if I ask to talk to "the person in charge" I will be facing a person of my race.

19. If a traffic cop pulls me over, or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

20. I can easily buy posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

21. I can go home from most meetings or organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in rather than isolated, out of place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance, or feared.

22. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having coworkers on the job suspect that I got it because of race.

23. I can choose public accommodations without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

24. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help my race will not work against me.

25. If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it has racial overtones.

26. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in flesh color that more or less matches my skin.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:30 PM

31. you totally missed the point

how old are you?

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:34 PM

4. I'm a white woman and I see my privelege all the time, because I open my eyes.

If you don't see it, open yours.

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Response to Happyhippychick (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:37 PM

6. Every time I tell a sales clerk a person of color was there first

that person of color looks so surprised that I have to notice I've done something unusual. That's called recognizing one's entitlement.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:45 PM

12. Does this happen to you often?

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:46 PM

14. More often than you might think

even here in NM, where white folks are just another minority.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #14)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:51 PM

15. I don't think that's the case here in the multicultural San Francisco Bay area.

It sounds like a 1950s sensibility.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #15)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:18 AM

43. Here's a story from ten years ago in that same multicultural Bay area.

At the farmer's market, an uber WASPy-looking guy was at the same stand as me at the farmer's market. He was looking at some overripe tomatoes and asked the farmer what he'd do with them. The farmer said he'd make a nice spaghetti sauce. WASPy guy says, "Huh. I've never known a Latino who made pasta sauce." The farmer stared at him and said "I'm Filipino."

It happens here too, just not as often as in other parts of the country.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #43)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:58 AM

69. WASPY eh?

way to be as racist as the guy in your story

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #69)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:52 AM

73. WASPy isn't racist.

Prejudicial perhaps, but only if one is not a member of the group.

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Response to Gormy Cuss (Reply #73)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:03 AM

77. What does the W stand for

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Response to MattBaggins (Reply #77)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:11 AM

79. The most privileged race in our culture

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:38 PM

7. just curious

Did you happen to notice a difference in the make up of your honors classes vis a vis your non honors ones. I would be more than a little surprised if you didn't.

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Response to dsc (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:45 PM

13. Indeed

In my few non honor classes I took there was a lot more males in the class. But in my honor classes most of the students that excelled were female and not necessarily white. I went to a high school where female students were encouraged to go into the IB and Medical program (Palm Harbor University High School).

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #13)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:02 PM

18. I would be amazed if there weren't a pretty large racial difference as well

I teach in a school which is majority minority but my AP classes are majority white. I agree that there tends to be more females as well, except calc where the males still tend to rule, but the racial discrepancy is very hard not to see.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #13)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:27 PM

29. And yet those women will still be paid less for the same job than the men.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #13)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:15 AM

70. I am extremely familiar with Palm Harbor University High School.

When you say "not necessarily white", you mean that there is a minority enrolled into the program every now and then. I know many people from that school, graduates and current teachers.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #70)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:59 AM

75. It has changed since I graduated a decade ago

because most of the white families used to send their children to CCC (Clearwater Central Catholic). We also had a lot of students that we siphoned from South Pinellas away from Boga Ciega, St Pete High, Seminole, etc. So, at the time my honor classes were vey diverse multi culturally. I hear that more families living in the school zone (Palm Harbor was the first area I ever lived in where there were so many whites in one area) now are sending their children there and Palm Harbor High is not as diverse as it used to be.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #75)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:13 AM

80. As I said, I am very familiar with that school.

The stats have not had the dramatic change you state.

Male 1116
Female 1209
Total 2325

Students by Race

Race
Count
%

American Indian - Alaskan
6
0.26

Asian - Pacific Islander
106
4.56

Black
78
3.35

Hispanic
73
3.14

White
2062
88.69

There is a reason you don't understand your privilege. Would you like to post the stats from 10 years ago or should I. The makeup was not that much different.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:42 PM

10. Just because you don't know yours or your country's history doesn't make it any less true

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:53 PM

16. My age group is well aware of history

but the word history also implies it should stay in the past so progress can be made forward. If you want to dwell about the past you can do so at your own devices.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:02 PM

19. if you think that being white in a non-white neighborhood erases your privilege

you just don't understand the topic you are writing about.

i live in such a neighborhood, i grew up in it as well.

how you could think that in a small corner of the world one's privilege is erased at the same time in the entire country the statistics are reversed and by your logic not erased there.

your own logic suggests white privilege and if anything, you are saying that your experience is the exception to the rule.

ironic that you proved the opposite of what you are saying.



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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:04 PM

20. ignoring history is how the women's movement lost so much ground in the last 30 years. no thank you.

young people often feel "too cool" for this shit, and love easy answers. that younger Dems could rally around Obama and not think to show up for the midterms show they are just as facile in views and complacent as your average middle american.




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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:10 PM

24. Have you ever heard the phrase "past is prologue"?

You really don't know what you're talking about if you think history is not alive in the present. If you truly believed that, you wouldn't have cited your family history or some of the events of your youth in the OP. History is alive in you and in us all; your OP proves you are living at least partly in the past.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #16)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 06:18 AM

60. YOU may be well aware of history, but that doesn't signify that your age group

is. Nor does the word history mean that the past should or does stay in the past. As you're so aware of history you're undoubtedly aware of what Santayana said about it.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 10:59 PM

17. The concept of white privilege is easy to defend.

It's really pretty unambiguous. By any metric, people of color suffer greater injustice. They are less likely to graduate, less likely to go to college, will die young, are more likely to suffer drug addiction or be victims of (and incarcerated for) crimes.

Just like men in that regard.

White privilege is real. Male privilege is bullshit.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:56 PM

37. Agree with 99% of your post

I'd just like to add the this to this sentence of yours:

"By any metric, people of color suffer greater injustice" and aren't afforded the opportunities that whites get who sometimes don't even seem to know they are getting.

And one other thing. Do you really think that male privilege is bullshit?

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:41 PM

109. Asserting that "male privilege is bullshit" is bullshit. n/t

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #109)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 04:03 PM

112. You're welcome to your opinion.

Even if it's bullshit.

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Response to lumberjack_jeff (Reply #17)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:18 PM

121. Well, statistically in 20-30 years

whites will no longer be the majority so the perceived white privilege will have little bearing. But if there is still an inequality as you state by then, with the majority of the population being Latino, that is more worrisome.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #121)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:52 PM

123. White privilege doesn't always depend on numbers

They can still hold all the levers of power.

When I moved to LA in 1979 there were no Hispanics on the City Council, or the LA County Board of Supervisors, and there were few stories about them in the local media. At that time Hispanics were just under 50% of the city population. There is still relatively small representation for them.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:05 PM

21. You aren't the "white Christian male" being referenced

On top of that, have you seriously looked at the representatives being elected elsewhere in the country and the legislation they pass? If you think there's no ongoing battle for equality at many levels that affects REAL PEOPLE in the REAL WORLD, then I suggest you unplug yourself from the internet. Virtual equality is nice but it isn't yet the great equalizer you make it out to be.

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Response to magellan (Reply #21)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:18 AM

42. Yes, he is

He's white, so when he gets into an elevator in a building, people probably aren't going to have that uncomfortable look on their face that would most likely be there if a young black male walked into the elevator.

He's male, so he's probably not going to get whistled at or be the object of remarks such as, "hey honey, wanna come over here"?

He's Christian, so on Easter, it won't seem weird if he's walking around with a headscarf on and not eating ham.

Being privileged doesn't mean you're bad; it doesn't mean you're trying to lord it over anyone else. You are privileged because you are accepted as normal, and neither suspicious nor subject to ridicule.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #42)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:14 AM

47. You're right

The privilege you describe is something I'm sensitive to, but the OP got me thinking in terms of the pejorative White Christian Male as opposed to himself. I missed an important component of what he wrote by going off track that way. Thanks for straightening me out.

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Response to frazzled (Reply #42)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:08 AM

78. When I don't shave and I wear my USF cap (thanks Bill Oreily haha)

people assume that I am some Arab guy from the mid east. You should see the dagger looks I am able to garner. o.O After September 11 attacks I was pulled over three times in one day on the 12th. Obviously it is nothing like DWB, but it is a close as it comes. It isn't I am oblivious that discrimination exists, but this favoritism or privilege that white males enjoy is pretty much a fabrication from my view. If one wants to define privilege as leading a normal life, that is an interesting argument, but equality is a right not a privilege so that is where I disagree with that argument! Privilege implies it can be taken away (Driver's License) while a right is something that can't be taken away.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #78)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:14 AM

81. I'm not defining the concept of privilege this way: that's what it IS

And the very fact that you could interpret it as "leading a normal life" is proof that you're still not understanding the concept. Privilege is what the institutional societal powers that be DEEM as normal. Everybody's normal.

You just don't understand the amount of privilege you walk around with. Sorry, but your complaints about being pegged as privileged are just whining. We should call you a whambulance.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #78)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:34 AM

83. Yes, but

You have the option to shave and remove your baseball cap to return to your white self. Real Arabs don't have that option.

FWIW - my husband is often mistaken for someone of Middle Eastern descent, especially when he doesn't shave. And, yes, he was given a hard time after Sept 11. However, he does not deny that white male privilege exists. You seem to mistake your personal feelings with those of our society as a whole. Mistake.

Oh, and since you know what it's like to be an Arab, can you tell me how many people stand outside your church with picket signs, flags and bullhorns shouting that you're a terrorist?

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #78)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 04:59 PM

116. I understand 100% what you are describing/saying

you were very clear and articulate and I agree. Most of the comments that came after your post seem to be from their point of view, I trust in your opinion you are the future I also get how you are saying chores are gender neutral when it really comes down to it. you are very refreshing to me!

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:07 PM

22. Whoosh.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:07 PM

23. i'm privileged as an american female of south asian descent compared to non american females of

south asian descent. that doesn't mean i'm well off or there aren't south asian females who are better off than me.

the white male privilege thing isn't about saying ALL white men have it well.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:11 PM

25. I'm 23 and the spectre of privilege is a reality, not opinion (and it does not turn me off).

You are a white, Christian, male and you have more privilege than almost anyone on Earth. Open your eyes and you will see.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:14 PM

26. I never felt "privileged", BUT

I was never denied a job, education, a place to live, etc because of my race or gender.

It's a sad statement about our society when people who are not discriminated against are considered "privileged". We must do everything we can to end discrimination and give everyone an even playing field.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:17 PM

27. Privilege is the default setting for many people.

If you take for granted that you are allowed to get married to someone you love, if you take it for granted that you were in the honors classes because you earned it (and more importantly others took that for granted too throughout your life), if you took it for granted that you could get to and from school without being sexually harassed, and you made it to this point in your life without being raped, that's great, and it's how life should be for everyone.

If your impression is that the internet has brought equality, and you've never had to think about choosing a gender neutral or masculine name online to avoid harassment and you've never had to shut down a blog because of threats of sexual violence, or read graphic descriptions on some stranger's blog of sexualized violence against you personally as a result of something you've posted on DU (I've had that joy), you aren't seeing the full picture.

I'm just saying there are things that are invisible to people who don't experience them.

Even in my small world, I work in a school that is very diverse and embraces that. One of our teachers recently transferred to another school in a neighboring town. He was shocked to see how open and acceptable racism and homophobia are among his students, and I was equally shocked to hear the comments his students have been making. If I don't see things myself, it's easy to believe they aren't happening anymore, at least in my community. When we aren't exposed to things, and we believe they shouldn't be happening, they become invisible to us.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:30 PM

30. Privilege is real

I'm a white woman in a relationship with a black woman. A few weeks ago, we were on a vacation in New Orleans. On the day we were packing up to leave, I was waiting in the courtyard with our bags, while she was still inside our room making sure we didn't leave anything behind. Our door was open. The door to the room across the small courtyard from us opened up, and the guest (white and male) emerged. He saw my girlfriend inside our room and announced, "You can do my room now, I'm done."

I don't know that my jaw ever dropped before, but it did then. And I regret it, because in the moment it took me to fully understand what had happened, he had gone. He deserved to hear something about what just happened.

And then, on reflection, I was embarrassed again -- because there's nothing wrong with working in hotel housekeeping, either.

It was a bad moment all around.

Years ago, I used to think that talk about privilege was nonsense, too. Sometimes it takes seeing the world through the eyes of another to make you understand.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:30 PM

32. How often are you harased by cops?

I traded in my BMW for a Prius because I was tied of getting pulled over every week for no reason. I am two years older then you and I sure as hell see how privileged all of my white friends are. Things like being subscribed painkillers when they have seriously painful injuries, things like not being afraid of going to jail just because someone in the general area is breaking the law, things like not being called a dirty nigger by your high school girlfriends racist father... you know the little things.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:37 PM

33. I don't see you as privelidged but there probably things you won't have to worry about that others

will have to worry about. If you are walking down the side of the street and an African American male is walking down the opposite side of the street, the African American is much more likely to be arrested. And let's say both of you were arrested you would likely get a lighter sentence than an African American. This is not of your doing. You are not doing anything wrong. You are not responsible for how others treat you. You are responsible for how you treat others, and if you treat others with respect then you are doing good. The question is what do we do about the fact that others are being mistreated. That is when we all join together and fight for others equality. I doubt anyone would kick you out of a demonstration for equality because you are a white Christian. You don't need to carry the burden of all white Christians. Just carry the burden of being a good person and fighting for all people's equality.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #33)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:51 AM

72. Oh, but it is of our doing.

Last edited Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:46 PM - Edit history (1)

If we turn a blind eye to injustice when we see it, and if we enjoy privilege at the peril of others -- most especially when we can do something about it -- we are responsible. The unjust treatment of the disenfranchised in our country throughout history did not occur in a vacuum; it was enabled. Unjust treatment of the disenfranchised is not continuing in a vacuum, either; it is being enabled.

And let's say both of you were arrested you would likely get a lighter sentence than an African American. This is not of your doing. You are not doing anything wrong. You are not responsible for how others treat you.

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Response to Heidi (Reply #72)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 01:03 AM

133. I never said he should stand by and not do anything. I said he should fight for justice.

he should stand up for equality, but he does not need to blame himself for what others do. That is what is sounds like others expect him to do, and I don't find it necessary at all.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:41 PM

34. Every time I hear some white male say that there's no such

thing as white male privilege, I suggest he take a look again at all of the CEO's of major corporations, as well as photographs of all who serve in Congress, and all of our Presidents.

The white male privilege does not imply that no white male ever has struggles or faces challenges himself. But most of the time the privilege is totally invisible to him.

I actually have been experiencing a curious older lady privilege in recent years. I'm over sixty, my hair is totally gray and so whenever I get pulled over by a cop, I look like mom, or grandma if he's young enough, and I always get a nice warning. I don't go out of my way to abuse this, but I've occasionally been caught speeding, once not quite stopping properly at a stop sign. It helps that I'm always very polite and apologetic, but I'm certain that my two sons would get a ticket in similar circumstances. Come to think of it, they have.

I also want to say that more than forty years ago I had a co-worker who was a black man, who'd retired from a career as a non-commissioned soldier in the army. He really understood what the feminist movement was all about.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #34)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:58 PM

38. good post

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #34)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 02:12 AM

51. That old white lady privilege sure comes in handy with traffic stops

It's as close to 100% guarantee as you'll ever get that the worst that will happen to you is getting a ticket. We're the demographic most likely to be rated as "mostly harmless." Now if only those 1% assholes and their lackeys would stop trying to cut Social Security...

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #34)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 05:34 AM

58. I know what you mean about being pulled over and given a warning.

I'm white and 55 years old, although I don't look my age. I live in a very white and middle-class area. I've been pulled over twice in the last year for minor traffic violations, and even thought they were inadvertent, in reality I was guilty of both. Each time as soon as the cops (both young and white) looked at my ID, they let me go with a warning. Being polite, and genuinely bewildered each time, also helped. I told my daughter that I think it's because they think I could be their mother or something and they just couldn't bear to give me a ticket. It's weird, and I'm quite sure that if I was younger I'd have been given the ticket.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #58)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:47 PM

87. I'm just slightly concerned that some day

I'll be stopped by a cop who truly hates his mother or grandmother and then will gleefully give me a ticket.

Here in Santa Fe, where I live, most of the police officers are Hispanic, and it's a culture that tends to respect the older women, so that helps.

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Response to SheilaT (Reply #34)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:07 PM

118. "White male privilege" does not exist

The page "White male privilege" does not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=white+male+privilege&go=Go

So anyone who told you that is correct. Conflating "male privilege" with "white privilege" is nothing more than intellectual dishonesty.

How many CEOs, Presidents, and members of congress have a penis is a function of outcomes rather than privilege. People who like to point out those facts seem to choose to ignore that most people in prison also have a penis, same as people who die on the job, those who have HIV/AIDS, those who die from cancer, drug addicts, alcoholics, people who don't graduate high school, and those who commit suicide. It's kinda hard to feel the privilege when you get the shit end of the stick for most social statistics. If my privilege is a greater chance to be President for which I get to die earlier, then you can have it.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:47 PM

35. I know folks in your age group who feel quite differently.

Racism and sexism didn't drop out of existence with the internet.

http://www.care2.com/causes/dont-call-them-post-racial-the-millennial-generation-speaks-out-about-race.html



<snip>

* A large majority of millennials assert that race continues to matter. When asked in the abstract if race is still a significant factor, a minority of millennials initially say that they don’t believe race still matters — and some young people clearly believe that money or class matter more than race. But when asked to discuss the impact, or lack thereof, that race and racism have within various systems, a large majority assert that race continues to matter. Our focus group sessions concentrated on the criminal justice system, public school system, employment, healthcare system, housing and the immigration system.

*Millennials are not monolithic. There are differences in how young people of different races and ethnicities view the extent and continued significance of racism in various systems of society. The fact that most millennials believe race still matters should not mask the very real differences of opinion both across and within racial groups about the extent to which they believe race and racism impact outcomes, and in which of society’s major systems. Our study reveals that issues like employment and criminal justice typically garner cross-racial agreement that racism continues to play a significant role, whereas on the topics of education, housing, health and immigration, different races and/or ethnicities emerge as majorities in the “race still matters” camp. Our study also finds that young people of color are more likely to bring up issues of race, access and resources when discussing these systems, while young white millennials are less likely to make connections across systems.

*Like most Americans, the majority of young people have difficulty defining present-day racism when initially asked and typically fall back upon generic terms of interpersonal racism. After an initial stumped silence or stumbling for words that greets a simple question of how to define present-day racism, the most common responses, both oral and written, are generic terms like “discrimination based upon race or color,” “stereotypes,” etc. Most white young people think about racism as something intentional and typically as something that occurs between individuals. On the other hand, while many young people of color similarly fall back on generic definitions of interpersonal racism when initially asked, most have little problem labeling an entire system as racist, given their personal and community experiences and the racial patterns of resources they see across systems. Moreover, young people with social or racial justice organizing experience and those who have taken courses in race and ethnicity tend to describe racism in institutional or systemic terms.


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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Sun Mar 31, 2013, 11:54 PM

36. clearly you don't understand..

 

.. the phenomenon of privilege then.

your feelings don't matter. what matters is the reality of the situation as it plays out across an intersection of demographic groups in a democratic republic such as ours.

in other words, it's about both power and justice. about what 'liberty' means when times get hard.

if you can't get that, if you can't come to see it, then what you really said to me..

..what i heard..

..is that you don't give a shit.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #36)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:12 AM

40. yes, very well stated. +1 n/t

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:01 AM

39. But do you get stopped just for "driving while white"?

Do you ever get harrassed at your job or leered at with lewd comments on the street just because you are a man?

Do people look at you weirdly or suspiciously because you wear a Muslim hajib, a Sikh turban, or a Jewish yarmulke?

And if you're straight (I'm not assuming anything here), does anyone whisper or look away or say vile things when you give your girlfriend a kiss in public?

If you answered no to any or all of these questions, then you are privileged.

I understand what you're saying here, and admire your background and values. But privilege doesn't mean just economic privilege or gender equality. I think you may be misreading the notion of privilege. Being the norm, simply being accepted as the standard, is the definition of privilege.

I'm a straight white Jewish woman, and I consider myself privileged in this society. Yet it's funny. Today, we drove six hours from Columbus, OH to our home in Chicago. We were hungry half way through the trip, and the only place to stop was a breakfast-type chain restaurant. The waitresses were all dressed in bunny costumes, which was cute and great, and everyone in this small town was there for Easter brunch. We ordered eggs with hash browns, and when the waitress asked me if I wanted a biscuit, toast, or English muffin, I said I didn't care for the bread. My husband also declined the bread (it's Passover). The waitress said, "so neither of you is going to eat bread today"? My husband said, no, it's a holiday for us and we don't eat bread. You'd have thought we said we were from Mars. She sent at least three other waitresses over during the course of the meal to make comments such as "no bread?" and "you're the people not ordering bread?" Just a little hint of a peek at what it feels like to be not "standard" in large swaths of the country.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:16 AM

41. Yeah, I know.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:19 AM

44. I don't "feel" privileged, either...

This is because that as a white, straight male (albeit not christian, three out of four, I guess) I accept my privileged status as "normal." It doesn't "feel" like I'm in a special place, because it's all I've known, it's the totality of my experience, and frankly any deviance from this makes me feel disadvantaged. I know it shouldn't, but hey, this is how it is.

Like you and almost every other white guy, I don't get carted around on my very own sedan chair nor hand-fed grapes, or any other silly shit. I work, I have bad days and right now I could really use a little dental work. "lolprivilege?" No, because I realize that someone else, with hte exact same situations and conditions as myself, with only a change of skin tone, facial features, genitals, or orientation, would have it worse.

Privilege isn't about being on the top of the heap - most of us aren't. Privilege is about the fact that someone, in the same boat as you but with different characteristics, would generally be worse off than you.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:21 AM

45. so it's not enough to alienate the feminists on this board, now we have to move on to

alienating white Christian males too huh? My comment is not aimed at you Harmony Blue. My comment is more directed towards those who insist you bow down and admit your privilege.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #45)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:20 AM

55. I walk down the street and people literally hand me $100 bills for being white.

 

"That's a nice shade of white you got there. Have a Franklin!"

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Response to Comrade_McKenzie (Reply #55)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:45 AM

66. If you were black that would not happen

And in fact if you walk down the street while black, you are more likely to have the cops look into what you might be doing. They don't ignore you as much as they do white people. When you go into a store while black, it is more likely the clerks will watch you closely in case you steal something.

It's not all that hard to understand.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #45)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:13 PM

120. It is argued that if I forfeit some perceived privilege that inequality can be addressed.

In reality, to achieve equality you have to recognize that it is a collective effort. Martin Luther King Jr. didn't argue that whites were privileged but rather that everyone should have equal rights. If you haven't noticed most of the lines drawn in the sand on a variety of topics is often about privilege vs equality.

I side with equality, because frankly that is where we can obtain rights. Republicans have no problem giving the privilege of gay couples civil unions, etc. But when equal marriage is demanded Republicans start to worry because they know with equality comes rights, and that is not something that can be taken away so easily.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #120)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:12 PM

127. This is a false analysis, privilege vs. equality.

Those who developed the theory of white privilege did so to aid the struggle for equality. You haven't read the theory, so you are arguing against a subject whose theory you have no knowledge of.

None. Zero. Zip.

If you want to really argue on it, you need to study it first.

http://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White%20Priviledge%20Unpacking%20the%20Invisible%20Knapsack.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

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Response to kwassa (Reply #127)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 04:42 PM

145. So true

The OP basically says, "I don't see or feel my so-called 'privilege,' so whoever has it is not me."

But if you actually study the concept, that's no argument against its existence at all. In fact, were it visible, it would be something else.

So the people who simply say, "Just open your eyes" - that's a non-starter. Privilege is invisible.

But just like the air - which is also invisible - it is pervasive and real.

- a white male who had read just enough on the topic to know better

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #120)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 01:05 AM

134. I agree with you Harmony Blue.

Too often we fight against something when what we should be doing is fighting for something. It accomplishes so much more.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #120)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 01:10 AM

135. I'm not sure I agree.

A poster elsewhere observed that his inability to marry was an injustice - he wasn't looking for privilege, but equality.

In that sense, eliminating the inequality of opposite-sex-only marriage simultaneously eliminates privilege (enjoyed by straights) and rectifies injustice. In this, I don't surrender any privilege, or at least not any privilege I want.

I suppose this is the kind of solution I can get my guy-brain around. It isn't enough to just identify problems, one must also try to fix them.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:03 AM

46. I'm a white Christian male, and I have privilege.

I can prove it very easily.

All I have to do is to drive my old, crappy car into a rich neighborhood. I can drive around and look at all the houses. I've done it before. Passed by cop cars. Nod and a wave, no problem. I like looking at nice houses, even if I'll never be able to afford one.

One time, I told a friend about this. He laughed and said to try it with him in the passenger seat. So I did. I got pulled over by the very first cop car I saw and was grilled about what I was doing there, etc. The cop was taken aback when, in addition to my driver's license, I showed him my university I.D. and told him I was a grad student, thanks, and took a drive because it was cheaper than a movie. Then I told him my friend was another student there, and would he like to see his university I.D., too? Oh no, no problem now. You'll surely not be shocked to hear my friend is black. When it was over, I turned to him and said, "What the hell was that all about with that cop?" He said, "Welcome to my world." Lesson learned.

Privilege is something that's easily missed, because it's not something that automatically allows you a wonderful life. But it does deflect a lot of small, crappy things that happen on a daily basis to minorities (like "driving while black") and women (like having a mechanic try to rip you off simply because you're female). My favorite science fiction author said that if life was a video game, "white male" would be the easy setting. I can't help but think it's true.

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #46)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 07:07 AM

63. Great post. nt

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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #46)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:47 AM

67. Great post

Good story. Reminds me of Chris Rock's routine about the police. He says before you get in the car with your friend, ask him if he has warrants or drugs on him. Though, better yet, take a white friend. Then you will avoid the problems!



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Response to GaYellowDawg (Reply #46)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:24 PM

94. Thank you. This is so much harder to explain than it should be. You did it well.

I think the problem is partly that the word 'priviledge' is misleading - people often seem to think it means an automatic financial advantage or something. The video game analogy is good.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:33 AM

48. You are a white male. You are automatically presumed to be worth

paying a higher salary than a white female, or anybody else for that matter.

You were born with full rights. You never had to fight for any.

I'll leave it at that.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #48)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 08:25 PM

117. Someone needs to be beaten with a clue stick.

Sheesh. What a self centered post.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:43 AM

49. Whether you feel privleged or not is irrelevant.

You are a member of a privileged social group within this country - white christian males.
This group controls the fast amount of wealth in this county and regardless of your feelings, you are part of it.
A multitude of doors in life are open to you that are sealed to your former class mates.
It is impossible to fight against something without understanding the nature of the problem.
To deny that a problem exists is to perpetuate it.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:58 AM

50. Being white is awesome

Harmony Blue, being white is awesome because:

I can go anywhere I want to and assume the police won't stop me for no apparent reason.

When I go into stores, store security never follows me around.

I can rent or buy any home I can afford, anywhere in the country.

White males have always had affirmative action in getting jobs.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture. If you were black, none of these things would apply to you.


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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 02:23 AM

52. If you work in a corporation, take a look at senior management...

notice something?... yeah... that's white male privilege.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 02:43 AM

53. Your subject line perfectly diagnoses the problem. (nt)

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:01 AM

54. So try this...

Go for a month or so acting effeminate and wear a Buddhist symbol around your neck or wear a Yakima or something of that nature. If you want to go all out wear a skirt. Go apply for a job see how fast they try to steer you away from even making an application.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 05:04 AM

57. You're not. The entire concept is a fucking chimera.


It makes my blood boil.

I've been thinking about this for several months and observing conversations on this site regarding the concept of privilege getting steadily angrier and angrier and waiting for someone who supports the concept to say anything meaningful about it. They can't. The only thing chimera "privilege" seems to be able to do is assert itself and dance about saying "oooh, you don't believe in me, that proves I exist," which is just the most babyish, clumsy piece of manipulation I've ever seen. The concept has no qualities beyond a kind of "stuff being got" scorecard, as if a person's life is definable in terms of what they GET and a series of loopy avoidance mechanisms to cope with its criticism.

What other conceptual system would we allow to stand that assumed criticism of it was evidence for it? Why are those supporting it incapable of talking about IT? What, in fact IS it?

Any attempts to extract any kind of meaningful structure from those supporting the concept result in the silliest tropes imaginable, "it's a ying, yang thing" I was told the last time this garbage came up. What the FUCK? When did conceptual models of human relations become immune to criticism?

I've been gay all my life. I am fucking DAMNED if I'm going to go to all my straight friends and tell them they're "privileged". I refuse to adopt a clumsy linguistic trick that explicitly condemns me to a power relationship with my friends, I will NOT exchange the heirarchically neutral term "enfranchisement" for the explicitly heirarchical and obscurant "privilege" so that a bunch of straight white middle class liberals can lounge about on couches with their hands stapled to their foreheads saying "Ooooooh! I feel so PRIVILEGED. I am so aware of my PRIVILEGE. You over there. Think about your PRIVILEGE. I'm thinking about mine. See what a lovely person I am? I must be because I understand how privileged I am."

The concept has nothing to do with enfranchising the oppressed. What does it do? It exhorts the free to mangle their perceptions of themselves. It places the free at the centre of the narrative instead of the chained.

Just because you can imagine a structure doesn't mean it exists. Remember the "gay agenda"?

It's self-absorbed DRIVEL.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #57)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 06:21 AM

61. + a million

 

Candidate for post of the year.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #57)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:32 PM

95. Maybe the word is wrong, but the thing it's describing is very very real.

Maybe the word you're suggesting is better. Don't know. Still there are many people who will deny the very existence of the (usually invisible to them) social advantage they enjoy no matter what anyone calls it.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 06:09 AM

59. "Most people when I talk to don't even know I was born and raised as a Christian." Where were you...

born?

Uhm, most people assumed you were born and raised a Christian if born in the United States, pretty much everywhere around the United States. In some cases, they may assume you are a certain denomination due to location, but still Christian. Where in this country would you NOT be assumed to have been born or raised a Christian?

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 06:26 AM

62. Dude, please have someone with a clue read this post and explain it to you.

 


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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:38 AM

65. This post is all about you, and not about society and its previous class distinctions.

You are trying to make yourself an exception.

I am white but I do know what my privileges were. Growing up in the middle class, parents who could afford my college education with some help from student loans, which were of reasonable amount and interest rate back then. They had college educations themselves, and thus my father had a job that paid a decent amount. Mom stayed home to take care of the kids, as it was back then, but she was able to work from time to time in a job that made use of her college education. Having been born to that family, though it was not the Rockefellers, still meant I would have an easier time going to and paying for college than someone born to a black family whose parents jobs were blue collar or couldn't find a job or suffered discrimination.

But then I grew up getting taught what limits I supposedly had as a female.

Everyone else wants equality, not a bunch of excuses from every white man about why he's exceptional and his family worked hard, etc. We know they worked hard. That's not the point.



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Response to treestar (Reply #65)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:34 PM

96. Well said!

Everyone else wants equality, not a bunch of excuses from every white man about why he's exceptional and his family worked hard, etc. We know they worked hard. That's not the point.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:53 AM

68. Everybody's experience is valid to a certain extent

But - there are doors that are opened to white guys that aren't open to other races or genders. Doors are left open longer for white guys as well. In many places a black person or a woman can make fewer mistakes than a white guy before they are in trouble. It's a matter of empathy and people find it easier to empathize with people like them.

To pretend that the Internet gets rid of this is to be in a very rarefied situation - I can assure you most American workers still have to worry about how they come across face to face.

Bryant

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:27 AM

71. You went to Palm Harbor University High School....

and don't understand your privilege. Amazing High School by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Harbor_University_High_School

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #71)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 12:53 PM

88. I would have been privileged to attend that school.

Last edited Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:51 PM - Edit history (1)

Instead, I was schooled in a very affluent district (due to having an Oklahoma Gas & Electric plant on our side of the Arkansas River) where more than 70 percent of students were decidedly unprivileged (enrolled in free breakfast/lunch program). I was STILL privileged, as the adopted daughter of two white, well-educated (one MS parent and one MA parent), upwardly-mobile parents.

I seriously do not understand why so many (so-called) progressives are unwilling to acknowledge white privilege and white male privilege. Maybe it's because acknowledging these privileges would, ethically, require them to cede a bit of (ill-gotten) power.

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Response to Heidi (Reply #88)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:04 PM

89. I don't get it either.

I am very familiar with that school and it is the epitome of white privilege. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the school itself, even if it sounds like I am. It is an amazing school. But the op literally used this school to bolster their creds as to not understanding white privilege. After I called them on it, they then said the make-up of the school was different ten years ago when they were there. It was not.

This is the school in question. They claim it is diverse.

Male 1116
Female 1209
Total 2325

Students by Race

Race
Count
%

American Indian - Alaskan
6
0.26

Asian - Pacific Islander
106
4.56

Black
78
3.35

Hispanic
73
3.14

White
2062
88.69

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #89)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:23 PM

105. I don't know any school in this region that is this un-diverse. 89% white is diverse?

It is not uncommon to have students from as many as 90 different nations in our local schools, not only from all racial groups, in quantity.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #105)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:30 PM

107. There are actually a few in the area that are less diverse.

The op, using this school to show their diverse background, is complete bs. If one is not going to be honest on the internet, they should leave out things that some people might recognize.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #107)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:52 PM

110. Excuse me for not understanding something ....

Palm Harbor University High is in Florida. I though Harmony said he grew up in Los Angeles. Is there someplace he said that he attended Palm Harbor?

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Response to kwassa (Reply #110)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 04:30 PM

114. They went to Palm Harbor University.

"In my few non honor classes I took there was a lot more males in the class. But in my honor classes most of the students that excelled were female and not necessarily white. I went to a high school where female students were encouraged to go into the IB and Medical program (Palm Harbor University High School)."

That is from one of their posts. The "not necessarily white" part was what I found to be interesting.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #107)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:08 PM

119. My honors classes were indeed diverse

a lot of students outside of the 2 mile radius of the school zone were bused in from Largo, Seminole, St Pete, Clearwater etc for the two Magnet program (IB and Medical). A lot of these classmate of mine in these honor classes were minority students and female, but in normal classes as I posted yesterday, were mainly white students. But a lot of white families in Palm Harbor area at the onset of the Unversity opening chose to send their kids to CCC. Also, the two mile radius is tiny for Palm Harbor, so a lot of eligible students had to go to East Lake or Tarpon High as a result.

We often had the discussion about how siphoning bright young minority students from their minority schools can drastically alter test scores on FCAT, which obviously impacts funding, etc. You can ask MadFloridian for more details about how this inequality is created as a result.



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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #119)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:06 PM

125. What were the percentages of minorities in your honors classes?

the numbers NCTraveler has posted show there were very few in your school altogether.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #119)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:08 PM

126. You are not being honest. That is the most polite way I can put it.

Madfloridian is one of my favorite posters. It is weak that you brought her into this. I have backed up my thoughts with statistics. You tried to use something inaccurate to back up your op and posts. It was highly inaccurate. Once again, that was backed up by facts.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #119)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 01:14 AM

136. Everything in my life has demonstrated that honors courses are less diverse.

Not even by a little. By a lot. That begins in elementary school and only becomes more drastic until you reach college when the honors courses are almost exclusively white students.

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Response to Heidi (Reply #88)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:04 PM

90. Some people are incapable of thinking in the abstract, or looking

beyond the end point of their nose. They become defensive and angry when it's pointed out to them. You can call yourself progressive, but if you can't even acknowledge the ways in which benefit from privilege, you are not at all progressive.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:02 AM

76. Most fish don't feel the water in which they are surrounded.

Most fish don't feel, acknowledge, or concern themselves with the water in which they are surrounded.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:18 AM

82. The best black beer driver/salesman in the country could have applied for

the job I got in 1987, and I still would have gotten the job. There's no question about it. My bosses would have rationalized it by telling themselves that our rural customers just wouldn't accept a black driver. In some cases they may have been correct.

That would probably still be the case here in Idaho where I live. If the racism alone wasn't enough, the guys doing the hiring would likely have someones buddy or relative already in mind. I know of no minority route drivers working for distributors in my area. Every single one of them is a white male. Beer, pop, bread and chip drivers.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:54 AM

85. I'm a white very liberal Christian male and yes I'm privileged

Exhibit A: I've been out walking in the middle of the night (insomnia) and I have NEVER been stopped by police asking me who I am, for ID, what I'm doing, etc etc.

I think that proves it.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:16 PM

92. I don't think you understand what people mean when they talk about privilege

It doesn't mean that you have 'more' than other people or are 'better off'. But it does mean that you live in a culture/environment that is created more for the benefit and ease of your demographic than it is for people outside that demographic.

The sad thing is that most people like yourself don't even recognize that this is so - because you are seemingly unable to imagine what other people outside your demographic have to deal with on an almost daily basis.

Privilege is probably not the best word to explain this, it causes a lot of confusion. Especially to folks who are just trying to get by and don't feel like they have any special advantage. I think the reaction and resistance to the idea that privilege exists is that people like yourself think that someone is trying to take something away from you, when in fact all other people really want is to be treated fairly.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:22 PM

93. Ever been hungry?

Or have half the young men in your family in prison? Or hide a beloved undocumented sister and her children? Or are held to cultural standards from a different country?

Ever been pulled over because you drive a POS? Ever have people, stare and make rude comments because you're with your three children in the store and you pay for your purchases with food stamps or even cash?

Everybody has privilege. It's a matter of what and how much. If you think of privilege as a continuum, it might make better sense to you.

I wouldn't speak for 'all your age group' either. I think not everybody is in your reckoning.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:35 PM

97. it's when you feel it that it stops being privilege (nt)

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:46 PM

98. Here's my take on it, I'm sure many will disagree and perhaps be angry by words, but whatevs...

Being a white guy (not Christian though), I kinda get where you're coming from, because I know many minorities who are far more successful and seem to have it easier than me. But that's really just looking at it on the surface without really looking deeper into it. I work with a guy who is black and he is fucking awesome. He can do pretty much anything he wants and he's one of those upperly mobile people that I wish I could be. He got there because he's smarter, smells better, dresses better and is less of a fuck up than me. Now, had he been equally as dumb, smelled and dressed just as bad and been an all around screw up like me, then he would have had it harder than me. Despite my numerous flaws, I can still go out and get jobs and get by. He, however, would have to fight/work harder to achieve anything if we were at the same level of human awesomeness.

I guess my point is that there may be many minorities may have it better/easy than many non-minorities because they either start out in a better situation (wealthy family, better genetics ), but if you compare people on an equal playing field, the non-minority will often times have it easier.

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Response to octothorpe (Reply #98)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:55 PM

100. Which many minorities have had it better/easier than us white folks?

I'd really like to know. (And no, your post doesn't make me angry, nor do I disagree with it in general.)

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Response to Heidi (Reply #100)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 02:06 PM

101. I meant specific individuals who are a minority

Such as my co-worker/friend that I mentioned in my post above. I think individuals of any race can have it easier than a white guy born in shitty situation. A wealthy African American who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth is going to have more privilege than a white guy born into poverty. But if you have a white guy and a black guy with nothing 'special' about them both born in the same poor neighborhood, then black guy would have a more difficult time getting out of the situation for many of the reasons mentioned already in this thread.

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Response to octothorpe (Reply #98)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 02:13 PM

103. The Beyonce argument

The fact that there are some people of color/women who are doing better than some white men does not mean that as a group, white men have privilege over people of color/women.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 01:51 PM

99. Yeah. Okay.

 

Try living your life as a bisexual atheist black male then tell me you don't have privilege.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 02:26 PM

104. Fish have no concept of what water is, either, as was pointed out upthread.

They're just so used to swimming around in it, and breathing it in and out, and it's always been there, so it is invisible to them as a concept.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:26 PM

106. put on a hoodie and go out for a stroll. . .

that feeling of safety you have. . .yea, that's that privilege.
hehe.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 03:56 PM

111. Some white male privilege has evaporated, yes...

...as the white men in charge of everything have begun eating "their own" as well as keeping women and minorities down. Their hunger is that voracious.

Real privilege, however, persists.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 04:12 PM

113. Ugh, this shit again

You know the 1% are wanking themselves silly at how successful this strategy has become. They know as long as you're at each other's throats arguing about "white male privilege", their immense wealth is secure.

Keep at it! Just know that they're laughing at you while they rob you of your wealth.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #113)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 09:26 PM

122. I agree and so does

many of my age group and younger age groups when it comes to the inequality of the 1% has created vs the 99%. Unfortunately you can't force people to see a point of view. Best you can do is to stoke a discussion. Frankly I don't feel privileged and also I don't feel minorities are privileged either. We all are afterall citizens of this world.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Reply #122)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:04 PM

124. Whether you feel privileged has absolutely nothing to do with whether you are privileged.

and your economic background doesn't matter either, if you are white. You have privileges that minorities don't.

You literally don't see the privilege; that doesn't mean that it isn't there.

Read up on the subject and then get back to us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

Print this off, stick it on your wall, and read it over and over. This is the most famous modern piece on the subject.

"White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" by Peggy McIntosh.

http://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White%20Priviledge%20Unpacking%20the%20Invisible%20Knapsack.pdf

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 04:33 PM

115. It is actually white, heterosexual males that have the advantage.

You added a crutch when you added another discriminator - religious belief. I've seen it all my life, WMP - but then again I am very careful NOT to talk religion to co-workers or future employers.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:14 PM

128. Me either. nt

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:22 PM

129. I wish I could find a way to take advantage of this privilege I allegedly have.

 

Because if this is privilege it leaves a lot to be desired. Because I'm so "privileged" I can't even work in my industry. I'm still waiting to be called back to work after nearly two years while, because of quotas in the city, everyone that isn't a white male hasn't missed a paycheck. It doesn't matter that many (not all) of these workers aren't even close to my skill and experience level, all that matters is that the bean counters have the required amount of "other than white males" on the job site. And I'm in a union for fuck's sake.

I get that people were treated poorly in the past and that the struggle continues but none of that is my fault. It seems punitive that I have to miss prime earning years because European immigrants were assholes for a few centuries. I'm going to have to make up these years in my sixties if I'm lucky enough to make it there. Commercial/Industrial construction isn't kind to those on the far end of middle age.

I believe in equality and merit but neither of these things matter at all apparently.

And now everyone can tell me that I just don't get it and it's not about the individual and "How do you like it?" and all that other horseshit. Have at it but don't give me that privilege nonsense because it doesn't exist in my world. Or if it does, it's doing its level best to elude me.

I'm trying to find a Philippino ancestor somewhere so I can claim Pacific Islander status. I might have to invent one. I'd have a job instantly.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #129)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 01:16 AM

137. You take advantage of your privilege every day you are alive.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #137)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 01:24 AM

139. It should come with instructions.

 

Because I'm not doing something right. If I have something I should be able to use it.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #139)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 01:29 AM

141. You don't have to do anything to redeem it. It is everywhere.

The foundation of your very existence is constructed of privilege. It is so normalized for you that you don't recognize it.

Every human interaction you participate in is subject to fundamental power relationships of dominance and submissiveness.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #141)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 04:21 PM

142. It's too abstract then.

 

If I have advantages, I need to be able to use them in some tangible way. Otherwise they don't exist.

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Response to MrSlayer (Reply #142)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 04:32 PM

143. They do exist. You choose not to see them.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #143)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 04:34 PM

144. I don't know what I'm looking for.

 

I can't choose to not see something that isn't there. Please help me out here, at this point I at least need the illusion that something is going ok for me.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 11:42 PM

130. The internet didn't make people more "enlightened"...

Racism, sexism, and other forms of institutionalized discrimination did not go away with the advent of the internet.

It is astonishing to me that so many people just don't get it. They say privilege is often invisible to those who have it...

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #130)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 01:21 AM

138. It's not invisible. It's so normative that we are blind unless we choose to see.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Tue Apr 2, 2013, 04:45 PM

146. I think perhaps you need to expand your definition of "privilege' n/t

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Wed Apr 3, 2013, 12:02 AM

148. keeping the working class divided along racial lines is essential to the ruling class'

continued dominance.

I find a lot of the gender/racial identity politics to be an all to convenient distraction from how the 1 percent is fucking us all.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:21 AM

151. I'm as privileged as all hell, and I know it.

It shows itself a million different ways, and I see evidence of it nearly every day of my life.

I still have problems though. But I can't imagine any of them being any easier if I were a woman, or black, or gay, or a non-Christian.

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Response to Harmony Blue (Original post)

Wed Apr 3, 2013, 11:22 AM

152. Interesting. Grand dukes, kings and queens felt the same.

The majority of them viewed the crown as a burden, a task, a hard job, with responsibilities that few others could understand. They never viewed it as being privileged, with almost unlimited power over others.

Of course there were exceptions, where inbreeding, mental illness, and pure avarice was the driving force of their rule.

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