"90% of the guns in America are owned by White people in the suburbs."

[baldguy]

"What are these White people so afraid of in the suburbs? Do they think little red-headed, freckle-faced Jimmy down the street is going to kill them? Mug them? I don't think so. Are they afraid that the guy next door is going to break in and steal their TV? No, because they know the guy next door makes $50-60 thousand a year.

"Poverty & Racism. Most of our shootings are essentially coming from two groups: The poor, the group of poor people which we will not ever change, it seems and who find so much violence in their neighborhood. And then people who are just insane. In history we have always had insane people, as you just said. For the insane people we want to make it as hard as possible for them to get their hands on a gun, and if they get a gun, to fire as few bullets as possible

"For the group we never talk about, when we have these big shows after the school shootings. Most of the violence, where the people are dying are African-Americans, Hispanics and poor people. If we ever addressed that problem, if we ever made it so Chicago, East L.A., or Detroit were places that were thriving and where we had jobs, and people were paid a middle-class wage. What's the chance that you, walking home tonight in your middle-class neighborhood and being shot by somebody with a handgun? Very, very small."

----------------------------------

The very laws which allow 90% of the guns to be in the hands of middle-class, suburban White people allows the atrocities of urban violence to occur.

And to those suburban White gun owners whose lives are never threatened, but live in deathly fear anyway? The endless deaths of young Black & Hispanic children is a price they're willing to pay for their "freedom".

[hack89]

1. Moore pulled that number out of his ass

there is no way to determine who owns what guns.

[el_bryanto]

3. I agree that he most likely did pull that number out of his ass

But surely there are ways to make estimates.

Bryant

[hack89]

6. He needs to back up his claim.

is that such an unreasonable thing to expect?

[el_bryanto]

8. No it's not - he should back it up - it's possible he did get that nubmer somewhere

But it seems like a made up number to me. That said, the larger point he is trying to make seems firm.

[In_The_Wind]

137. I agree with you 90% seems like the wrong percentage.

[olddots]

50. back up your's

[hack89]

51. My claim that Moore did not present any evidence to back up his claim?

Simple - watch what he had to say. Notice the lack of any collaborating evidence or cites. Ask WTF.

[Brainstormy]

183. self reports by gun owners

show them to be predominantly white.
http://www.project.org/info.php?recordID=272


And while this doesn't completely answer the urban vs suburban question, a compilation of December Gallup polls showed that rural Americans — roughly one-sixth of the population — are more than twice as likely to have a gun in the home than those living in large cities.

My money's on Moore. He has done a lot of gun research. Recall Bowling for Columbine.

Frankly, I don't find the assertion even slightly surprising.

[hack89]

184. 46% of black respondents say they own a handgun

that's a pretty high ownership rate, wouldn't you think?

[morningfog]

118. We could answer this easily with a national registry.

[hack89]

130. Good to see you still have your dreams. nt

[morningfog]

131. One day! I think MM is probably right,

but without a registry it would be hard to prove. The white suburban gun hoarders tend to be among the most fearful and paranoid.

[baldguy]

4. Prove it.

Tell me why there's no way to know who owns guns.

[hack89]

5. He made the claim. He needs to prove it.

the reason we don't know is that there is no gun registration and background check information is not retained.

[baldguy]

16. No only that, but even *reasearch* is banned.

The domestic terrorists in the NRA and the pro-criminal lobby in the GOP have made compiling any information about gun violence or firearms ownership illegal.

But you know who DOES have this info? Weapons manufacturers and their advertising agencies. They certainly know who their customers are, and spend their ad money accordingly. Show me a firearm ad with a Black person in it.

[hack89]

17. So you agree that Moore cannot substantiate his claim?

because, as you point out, the information was not available to him?

[baldguy]

47. Show me a firearm ad with a Black person in it.

[hack89]

48. What does that have to do with his claim? nt

[baldguy]

53. You haven't been paying attention, have you? Try actually READING a bit .....

Weapons manufacturers and their advertising agencies (and weapons dealers) certainly know who their customers are, and spend their marketing dollars accordingly.

If you believe Michael Moore is wrong - that African-Americans are a large part of the gun owner community - it should be rather easy for you to refute his claim. Just find an ad for a firearm which is targeted toward the African-American consumer. Simple. Google is your friend.

Unless you're saying Capitalism doesn't work?

[hack89]

54. Why don't you simply show me that he is right?

a link to a study, some government statistics, perhaps an opinion poll. I can't believe that Michael Moore would not make such a claim with out some research behind it.

[baldguy]

55. You have no proof one way or the other that he is or he isn't.

But I've laid out a relative simple procedure to indicate if he isn't. Go ahead, find an ad.

[hack89]

56. That is pretty stupid logic

because by his own admission non-whites do own guns. That means that either there are ads out there (because no ads mean no guns purchased) or there are other means besides ads that non-whites use to decide to buy guns.

In the adult world, when people make outrageous claims we expect them to back them up with some facts. "Prove me wrong" is not the way it works.

[baldguy]

59. Well, the entire capitalist system for the entire world runs on stupid logic.

No great revelation there.

But, the thing is: it does seem to work, as far as it goes. If a business has a market for its product, that business will tend to advertise in that market. The more product sold in the market, the more will be spent on advertising.

If, as you insist, the "90% of gun are owned by Whites" comment is wrong, then - again, per your post - ads targeting non-Whites should be out there.

Where are they? All you need to do is find one ad. Just one.

Unfortunately for you, the opposite seems to work also: If a business can't sell its product in a particular market, that business will tend to steer their advertising away from that market. And the less of the product sold in that market, the fewer dollars will be spent on advertising.

Again: find just one ad. If you can't find it, that's a huge indication Michael Moore is correct.

Unless you're saying that capitalism doesn't work?

[GreenRanger]

186. what exactly

does an "ad" have to do with what race is buying weapons?

[laundry_queen]

197. Go read up on the science of marketing

and yes, it has become a science. Marketing basically studies and researches how many ways they can brainwash you into thinking you need/want something. A big part of marketing is choosing the right target market at which to direct your advertising dollars. This way you get more bang (pardon the pun) for your buck. If gun manufacturers are not targeting non-white markets, it's a pretty big indication that there is not a market to be had amongst non-whites, or at least not a significant enough of a market to warrant spending any advertising dollars on trying to sell guns to non-whites. It's pretty simple, actually. Marketing is ruthless in knowing their target market inside out, and boy do they know terrified white guys in the 'burbs - keep it in mind next time you see a gun ad. Watch who it is targeting. It's not urban black guys, that's for sure.

[GreenRanger]

199. honestly

I can't remember the last time I seen an ad on television about buying guns at all. Regardless of race.

[laundry_queen]

202. So?

read magazines? Look at flyers for those 'outdoorsy' type stores? The ads are there too. Not just television. Way to try to obfuscate.

[GreenRanger]

207. I wasn't trying to obfuscate

anything, I was merely trying to remember a television ad that I have seen referring to the selling of firearms, and I couldn't.

[davepc]

93. Youtube is full of them

Search for gangster rap music video....

http://www.complex.com/music/2012/11/50-photos-of-rappers-with-guns/

[baldguy]

97. Do you have any clue what an advertisement is? At all?

An advertisement is something produced & paid for by a manufacturer or a dealer for the purpose of enticing people do business with them and buy their product.

Do you live in America?

[davepc]

99. And do you have any idea about how modern advertising works?

Read about about the "Beats by Dre" headphone and how they're marketed.

You're the ignorant one if you think marketing and advertising only count of they're TV ads or glossy pages in magazines.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

102. By his logic bigotry can't spread because no corporate advertising firms

were paid to produce pro-bigotry ads.

[baldguy]

104. Product placement in various media works for cars, soft drinks & other consumer products.

But it's never, ever done all alone, all by itself. The target audience will lose the associative connections created with the product placement otherwise. The advertisers also need to ensure their contribution is acknowledged by the production, and they need to back it up with more traditional ads - print, billboards, radio, TV, etc.

So, yeah I know how "modern advertising" - as you call something that's been going on for at least 40yrs - works. So where are the ads?

[WinniSkipper]

191. I think you are

overestimating your abilities at understanding "modern advertising". What you said about "backing it up with....." is completely wrong.

[baldguy]

192. You're displaying your ignorance of WHY advertising works.

[WinniSkipper]

196. I understand why it works.

Almost everyone understands why it works. I am talking about you notions of product placements and the channels of the associated campaigns.

[olddots]

52. substantiate your claim about his claim

no need to ad lib stay on script

[Bay Boy]

108. So the weapons companies aren't trying to direct their advertising...

...at urban residents. Interesting comment.

[baldguy]

112. I've asked several people several times with no result so far.

Even if it was a small, but consistent sector of the gun manufacturers' business - you'd think they'd do some, but I haven't seen it.

[Bay Boy]

119. The booze companies

certainly direct their ads to urban areas.

[premium]

7. Because there's no national registry.

I would like to see Mr. Moore's proof of what he claims about 90% of gun owners being white, middle class suburban males, until then, I'll take what he says with a huge grain of salt.

[bike man]

9. Did everyone who has a/some gun/guns get them legally, with all paperwork completed

accurately? Could it be that some guns were acquired outside of the regulations?

That's why there's no way to know who owns guns.

[jberryhill]

15. Or bicycles

[snooper2]

21. 78.4% of gun violence is performed by gangs with stolen weapons

[cbrer]

91. Got a link? nt

[Bay Boy]

110. 89.1% of people don't need a link n/t

[Peter cotton]

34. Michael Moore...making stuff up about guns?

Say it isn't so!

[Lizzie Poppet]

35. A horrifying visual...but very probably true.

Nothing but an unsubtle attempt to portray gun owners as racist...kind of like a lot of posters here do. Whether from Moore or from a DUer, it's idiotic and slanderous.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

61. If we take Mr. Moore at his word are we to assume he employs racist bodyguards?

He probably employs them to keep those low-brow undesireables from bothering him.

[cherokeeprogressive]

82. You mean like this?

"'RKBA,' 'pro-2nd amendment,' 'pro gun rights' = right-wing code phrases for racism, sexism, homophobia, and hate. Defenders of use of said terms are enablers of - if not outright collaboraters with - those who traffic in racist, sexist, homophobic and otherwise hateful memes, period. It is that simple."

Hell some would have you believe gun owners are not only racists but homophobes, misogynists, and generally just haters of everyone.

That sig line makes me laugh every time I read it.

[Lizzie Poppet]

87. I've reported that slanderous, trolling nonsense multiple times.

Clearly the admins think it's okay...which massively eroded my respect for them, to be blunt. I have to wonder if the author would actually say something like that to someone's face (even me...and I'm 5'3", 110lbs...) or if it's just the sort of thing one says from behind the comfortable (assumed) anonymity of an online forum.

But I don't wonder for long. Persons of that sort of intellectual dishonesty seldom have any real backbone.

[Melon_Lord]

132. Wow.. seems like pedophilia and bestiality are missing as well...

[RZM]

144. That sig is slightly different everytime I see it

It's like a shitty Hollywood script. No matter how many times it's rewritten, it still sucks.

[olddots]

49. you pulled a number about a number Michael Moore quoted out your ass

easy huh ? now get on script .

[PotatoChip]

71. Why has no one else picked up on this?

OP left out an important word.

Michael said that 90% of guns are owned by white suburban and rural people. I'd say that his statistic is probable, and I'm sure he'd be willing to back it up if challenged to do so.

[spin]

84. I lived in the Tampa Bay Area of Florida for 37 years. ...

Most of the people I knew and my co-workers had firearms in their homes. A good number had concealed weapons permits. I knew a number of Blacks and Hispanics who were gun owners.

Now that I have moved to a more rural area of Florida, I find that almost everybody I encounter owns firearms. Hunting deer and feral hog is very popular in this area. I have met and formed friendships with many members of the Black community in my small town and many also own firearms although hunting is not as popular in their community.

Micheal Moore does not live in Florida. I believe that he lives in an exclusive neighborhood in Michigan. His perception of gun ownership is probably based on his own experience as is mine.

[morningfog]

69. Says the white guy guns in the suburbs. Lol.

[hack89]

70. So you can substantiate his claim?

no one else has been able to so far.

[morningfog]

114. LOL!

I don't know or care if he's right. He could have modified it a little to ensure accuracy: "90% of gun owners who play the victim and piss and moan about their guns are white men living in the suburbs."

[hack89]

129. "Facts are irrelevant as long as it is anti-gun"

is that an accurate paraphrase?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

177. Nailed it. n/t

[yellowcanine]

213. It is where he gets most of his numbers.

He is a gadfly. It's what gadflies do. But is the basic premise correct? And if it is, does it matter? That is probably what we should focus on.

[hack89]

214. It would matter if that 90% of guns was responsible for 90% of gun violence

it is clearly not.

[pipoman]

2. Numbers and percetages mean something

if they are factual...if they are made up fabrications they corrupt the cause they are presented to bolster..

[socialindependocrat]

10. Look at all the daily shootings from gangs

Maybe my view is skewed because I live so close to Phila.
but with all the gang shootings I'd say they have a fair number
of guns in their possession.

Maybe they only have data on legally acquired guns...

How come, whenever I see a news report about gangs they
never show a white gang? There must be some white gangs out there...

[baldguy]

24. And just where do you think those "gangs" get their guns?

From "responsible gun owners", of course.

[Niceguy1]

26. most likely

the get them from straw purchases... not normal run of the mill owners or the ones who are not convicted felons buy them. It isn't illegal for a gang member to buy a firearm.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

60. How come the neighborhoods of the alleged suppliers isn't as violence-wracked as

the neighborhoods of the gangs they allegedly supply?

[baldguy]

62. Ask Tony Montana.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

68. I never saw Scarface so I had to google Tony Montana

Even still, I'm not sure what the point is or why a fictitous movie offers any answer to the unfounded assertion that inner cities are only violent because someone else not in the inner city bought a gun.

If all these non-inner city dwellers are illegally supplying guns to the inner city why aren't the illegal suppliers exeperiencing the same, if not worse, level of violence?

[baldguy]

72. Illegal gun owners get their guns from legal gun owners. Every time.

Unless you believe guns are born illegal? No. They are legally manufactured, legally sold to legal distributors, then sold to legal gun owners. At that point they are transferred to the illegal gun market one way or another. And the legal owner is almost always negligent in some way; either they willingly participated in the transfer, or they didn't secure it properly.

Shouldn't gun owners be responsible? And if they haven't been able to be responsible over the last 30 yrs, isn't it reasonable to force them to be? The majority of Americans believes it is.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

75. So by that logic legal pharmaceutical drug users are negligient and wholly responsible

for illegal/destructive pharmacetical drug use. Every legal alcohol imbiber was legal until they weren't.

Abuse does not abolish the use.

[baldguy]

77. But pharmaceutical and alcohol dealers work as much as they can to ensure abuse is at a minimum

WEAPONS MANUFACTURERS, DEALERS AND OWNERS DO NOT! They work to ensure the abuse is maximized as much as possible.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

101. You know that is absolutely false. Firearm manufacturers and dealers are federally licensed.

As are pharmaceutical companies, distilleries, drug stores, pharmacies and liquor stores. I doubt your zeal for ending underaged drinking is as strong even in light of the fact that 4,700 deaths annually.

That's 4.5 Sandy Hooks EVERY WEEK. Your rage seems misplaced.

[cherokeeprogressive]

105. Every. Time.

Fucking bullshit.

[baldguy]

106. Where do you think they come from then?

Is there an illegal gun fairy that drops them off?

[cherokeeprogressive]

121. So if a Punk gets a piece from another Punk, and that gun is TEN TIMES REMOVED from

its original "legal" sale, that qualifies as getting their gun from a legal gun owner EVERY TIME?

Simplistic, JINGOISTIC, bullshit.

[baldguy]

122. It had to get into the illegal market somehow.

There are only two options for it being there: the original legal owner was negligent in either allowing it to be stolen, or misplacing it, or the original legal owner was culpable in transferring it to the illegal market.

And ... jingoistic? seriously?

[cherokeeprogressive]

124. Why don't you go back, and look at the subject line I replied to originally.

I'll repeat it for you here...

Illegal gun owners get their guns from legal gun owners. Every time (emphasis mine).

And you're right; I used one word too many, and the word I used was used out of context. Forgive me for that.

Your subject line was overly simplistic, and as such rendered everything you typed in the body of your post irrelevant.

[baldguy]

125. You have given no evidence that any given illegal gun can't be traced back to a legal gun owner.

And you can't, either.

[Recursion]

142. It's like immigration. Very few "illegal immigrants" (I hate that phrase) actually crossed illegally

That is, the whole notion of sneaking across the Rio Grande is a right-wing fantasy; most just overstayed their visa.

Similarly, many illegal guns were not illegal when the person bought them: he could legally have a gun before, and now he can't.

[Jenoch]

128. A lot of people who own guns illegally got their guns

from other people who owned their guns illegally (straw purchases). Only 10 to 15% of guns used in crimes are stolen from people who owned the guns legally.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html

[baldguy]

134. Every illegal gun can be traced back to a legal gun owner

There are only two options for that happening: the original legal owner was negligent in either allowing it to be stolen, or misplacing it, or the original legal owner was culpable in transferring it to the illegal market.

[Jenoch]

161. You are correct to a certain extent.

A straw purchase is when someone buys a gun for someone who cannot legally buy a gun. While that is a legal sale, it is an illegal purchase. The seller is not always culpable.

My brother has an 800 pound safe that holds guns. The safe is always locked when he is not standing in front of it with the door open. If someone breaks into his house and steals the safe, how is he negligent?

[Jenoch]

163. By the way,

contrary to Michael Moore's opinion, I do not own a single firearm that I purchased out of fear.

[npk]

198. You do know that a lot of illegal guns are brought into this country illegally right? n/t

[DollarBillHines]

78. The 'bangers don't go to gun shows, the prices are way too high

A friend of mine does intervention in Oakland. He told me that he could buy an AR 15 for two or three hundred bucks on the street.

[Romulox]

11. Absolute made up tripe from Michael. Once again, I invite him to visit DETROIT,

and explain to all the black victims of gun violence how it is really white people who are victimizing their neighborhoods (with LEGAL guns, no less!)

Needless to say, "Mr. Michigan" Michael Moore doesn't spend too much time in Detroit.

[Zoeisright]

66. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!

And you, in your infinite wisdom, have all the research at your fingertips, huh? What a laugh. I'll believe an award-winning documentary film maker over you, dear.

[Romulox]

159. All gibberish and smilies. nt

[cali]

12. like everyone else who's posted in this thread, I'm calling bullshit

Making "facts" up to support your pov or agenda or whatever is despicable no matter who is doing it.

[Skip Intro]

13. I once respected MM, thought of him as some kind of hero for F9*11.

Now I just see some buffoon yammering nonsensically.

90% of gun owners are $50K+ (rich I guess) Whites in nice houses in suburbs, he says.

And abracadabra, gun ownership is racist.

MM, I don't need you to tell me how I may and may not protect myself. I don't need you to tell me what group and sub-group you'd create and place me in, making wild assumptions about me based on your categorizing. I just realized, MM, that I don't need you at all.

[marions ghost]

14. Moore is right in the point that

Suburbanites & rich Republicons who resist any reasonable gun controls DO contribute to the issues of people on the bottom rung killing each other in ghettos.

(Leaving out your rural gun happy folks for the moment).

It's a generalization but it has truth.

[The Straight Story]

18. Then perhaps we need to work on ending poverty

Which is harder work but would solve two problems at once.

[marions ghost]

19. They go together

the Rich Republicon (urban & suburban) answer is just to let the bottom rung kill each other off out of despair.

Much more sane--and humane in every way--to regulate the flow of guns.

Guns Galore has to be over. You know what I mean I'm sure.

[baldguy]

40. Your allies in the NRA and the Tea Party are working against that happening.

[The Straight Story]

43. How cute

Using a word like 'allies'

It just chaps some people that there are progressives who don't agree with them on every topic. And the tactic of calling people allies or nra stooges, etc simply tells me they have no real argument.

[baldguy]

46. Same way you think Michael Moore shouldn't be heard - because he's fat.

Or Bloomberg can't be allowed to have an opinion - because he's rich.

Or John Kerry can't be taken seriously - because some troll thought he looked goofy carrying a shotgun.

Or that residents of urban areas being victimized by gun violence can't be trusted - because they're residents of urban areas.


If you don't like being tainted with the mud kicked up by your NRA & Tea Party pals you should stop hanging with them.

[ellisonz]

181. +1

[marions ghost]

182. ---

[guardian]

20. Wrong

Doesn't anybody know how to use a search engine any more? These stats are easy to find. But then again the antigunners aren't big on facts.

http://www.norc.org/Research/Projects/Pages/general-social-survey.aspx
http://www.people-press.org/2013/03/12/section-3-gun-ownership-trends-and-demographics/


White household gun ownership is only 46%, not the 90% that Mr. Moore claimed.
Suburban household gun ownership is only 36%, compared to 28% urban and 59% rural.


Some more
http://www.statisticbrain.com/gun-ownership-statistics-demographics/

[baldguy]

23. Really.

Tragedy underscores multiple gun-ownership trend in U.S.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/19/tragedy-stresses-multiple-gun-ownership-trend-in-us/1781285/

Please note: Michael Moore said "90% of the guns in America", not "90% of the Whites in America". He's talking about the numbers of guns, not the numbers of gun owners.

Gun owners are more likely to be white, more likely to be suburban & rural - the group least likely to be victims of violent crime. Yet these same people are more likely to own 4 or more firearms.

[joeglow3]

33. Who is more likely to hunt?

I personally don't hunt or own a gun. But, I know a number of people who own multiple guns who spend some of their leisure time hunting. These aren't people who are afraid of some bogeyman breaking into their home.

[baldguy]

36. All these White people aren't lining up to buy hunting rifles.

Unless you think an AR-15 with a 30-round mag is a "hunting rifle"

[joeglow3]

42. So, you have no real proof

2 pictures of people in line and you suddenly know the type of gun people are buying as it relates to the stats mentioned in this thread?

[friendly_iconoclast]

38. So if they aren't usually a problem, what's your beef?

[baldguy]

39. Because illegal gun owners get their guns from legal gun owners.

Every time.

[dsc]

45. If you are going to lecture on stats try knowing what you are talking about

What Moore said is that 90 percent of the guns are owned by whites in the suburbs, not 90 percent of white suburbanites are gun owners. Your stats do nothing to show him to be right or wrong since we don't know how many guns are owned by the people in the poll. I will admit, that I find his stat hard to believe and likely wrong, but you haven't offered any proof.

[Recursion]

57. This says 46% of whites are gun owners, not 46% of guns are owned by whites

That would be an interesting data set to have, but I can't seem to find it.

Anecdotally, some of the exurban white people who own guns own quite a few of them (I did when I was an exurban white person, for instance).

[morningfog]

115. I guess you need an refresher on how to use a search engine.

[Hoyt]

22. Does not surprise me a bit. Bigots arm up out of fear. NRA membership stats confirm.

Here's a long line of yahoos up early just one week after Sandy Hook drooling over a chance at an assault weapon:






And here's some Michigan Militia yahoos out for weekend training:





Go to just about any gun show/store, and look for signs of diversity.


We can argue all day over the exact percentage, but Moore's point is hard to dispute.

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. Amen, Brother Hoyt! Who needs research when you've got unquestioning faith?

[baldguy]

32. Look at all those not-White people lining up to git ther gunz!

[friendly_iconoclast]

37. Like these "non-white" people?

See, class- we can *all* use anecdotes!

[Hoyt]

41. I'd trust any of those old guys with guns, before the yahoos above from Michigan Militia/Bigots

or the young yahoos arming up like they are in the TBag Militia or something.


Here's some more "responsible" gun owning bigots out for maneuvers:

[Eleanors38]

80. Gun control? Nah, it dat white trash. That who it is.

The above quote is a peer-reviewed and approved from the M & M School of Advanced Studies in Prohibition Caricatures, whose central belief is:

"The best enemy incurs the least risk."

[Hoyt]

88. I hope someday you won't think in terms of "enemy." Citizens are not the gun

cultists' enemy.

[friendly_iconoclast]

86. It bugs you that there is no political test for gun ownership, doesn't it?

[Hoyt]

92. Nope. Rules should apply to almost every one.

The right wingers of guns (whatever they call themselves), are just the biggest concern because they are just perpetuating something that needs drastic change long term.

Other than guns, Love you guys.

[badtoworse]

25. People in the cities should have the same RKBA as people in the suburbs

[sarisataka]

27. 75.6% of all statistics are made up...

now it is 75.7%

[Fla_Democrat]

30. Yes but that's true only 49.67% of the time

[bighart]

28. Source: Gallup Inc, Gun Owners of America

National Gun Ownership (2010) 39 %
Sex
Male 43 %
Female 35 %
Race
White 44 %
Non White 27 %
Black 27 %
Age
18 – 29 31 %
30 – 49 40 %
50 – 64 45 %
50 + 42 %
65+ 38 %
Education
College Post Graduate 30 %
College Graduate 37 %
Some College 41 %
High School Graduate or Less 42 %
Income
$75,000 47 %
$50,000 49 %
$30,000 44 %
Region
East 22 %
Midwest 39 %
South 50 %
West 37 %
Politics
Republican 49 %
Democrat 35 %
Independant 35 %
Ideology
Conservative 49 %
Moderate 37 %
Liberal 22 %

http://www.statisticbrain.com/gun-ownership-statistics-demographics/

[baldguy]

31. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2563751

[morningfog]

117. That has no stat on the numbers of guns owned.

[apocalypsehow]

44. Spot-on. The "RKBA enthusiast" movement is largely a racist movement, with its roots in the

resentment and backlash many white right-wingers felt (and still feel) over the triumph of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s & 70s. It's racist rage that drives much of the pro-NRA agenda and the gun lobby, and it's focus on being able to strut through Wal Mart with a pistol perched in their pants, or an military-style assault rifle slung over their shoulders.

Excellent commentary. Kick, Rec.

[guardian]

58. Horseshit

Gun ownership and sporting is not racist. Only crazies see everything as racist. Next you'll be telling me tennis is racist because tennis balls are yellow.

[Quantess]

63. That's an extreme point of view you are holding.

Broad brush, also. Calling gun nuts racist?

[Eleanors38]

81. There you have it: He wants more culture war. Right here. nt

[Skip Intro]

120. You're well on your way to being famously full of shit.

Congrats!

[kudzu22]

64. If we accept Moore's assertion that 90% of guns are in white suburbs,

then why aren't white suburbs running red with blood? More guns = more death, right?

[Zoeisright]

67. You win for the stupidest post of the century.

See, there is this study called statistics. It looks at actual numbers and extrapolates (big word, I know) to determine numbers and trends. Which is not the same thing as your ignorant summary of lies.

[Throd]

73. I make up shit too. I invented helium!

[baldguy]

74. Prove that he's wrong.

[Throd]

76. For that percentage to pan out, all white suburbanites would have vast hoards of firearms.

Non-whites, city dwellers, and rural folk make up the other 10 percent? No matter how much you want it to be true, the math isn't there.

[baldguy]

79. The number of the "vast quantities" you're looking for is *4*.

Out of 10 Americans, 4 will own guns. 1 is non-White and owns 1 gun, 1 is White and owns 1 gun, and 2 are White and own 4 guns each.

90% of guns owned by Whites. And I can tell you didn't even bother to watch the video.

[Throd]

89. Non-whites only get one gun? Who knew?

I'm a white guy living in the suburbs. This place doesn't seem to have any more or less guns than other places I have lived.

If Michael Moore's face were on a nickel, Sean Hannity's would be on the other side.

[NaturalHigh]

94. "If Michael Moore's face were on a nickel, Sean Hannity's would be on the other side."

Line of the night, sir!

I'm a white guy living in (sort of anyway) an exurb. I haven't noticed many gun nuts in my neighborhood, and I personally only own two guns. None of those scary-looking "assault weapons" either.

[baldguy]

95. The actual percentages are listed in Reply # 20.

And my 13yr old niece could do the math.

[NaturalHigh]

113. Make some more. We're running low.

Seriously, have you bought a helium balloon lately?

[NaturalHigh]

83. Michael Moore is a self-promoting ass.

He's pretty much faded into oblivion.

[baldguy]

85. He's fat too! You forgot to mention that!

And the ad hominem indicates that he's got a point - an annoying & accurate point, for you - and you know it.

[NaturalHigh]

90. If he actually quoted a fact, he might have a point.

Any blowhard can throw out a statistic, but when he doesn't back it up with some sort of verification, he doesn't come across very well with his "point."

As for fat, I don't think he's much fatter than me, and he certainly has a fuller head of hair. His appearance is not my concern. His playing fast and loose with the truth bothers me, though.

[Hoyt]

98. You guys can't deny the hypothesis. If the percentage is 70%, MM has a point.

[NaturalHigh]

100. Who are "you guys"?

The ones who don't believe the statistic Michael Moore put forth?

The ones who are against useless gun control laws that only favor the criminals who don't care about the law to begin with?

The ones who don't like Michael Moore?

Okay - I'm in all three of the above groups. I'm against most of the gun-control proposals that have come out lately, and I think Michael Moore is a liar. Frankly, I think the caricature of him in Team America: World Police was pretty much spot on.

I will also say that I think it would be nearly impossible to get an accurate survey of who owns the majority of guns in this country, since there are so many guns in the hands of criminals who aren't legally allowed to possess them. It's not like they are going to hold up their hands when we ask "okay, who here has guns?"

[Hoyt]

103. Go to gun show, ask all the white gun accumulators where they live.

You don't need to be precise in a political decussion be right. MM is right on this even if it's just 70%.

[NaturalHigh]

107. First of all, I SERIOUSLY doubt that the number is even close to 70%.

Second, I'm not going to a gun show. Just because I support the 2nd Amendment and the right to keep and bear arms doesn't mean that I want to spend my weekend hanging out with people who have such different interests than I. The hunting videos alone would drive me crazy.

[Hoyt]

109. Unfortunately there are a lot of those gun cultists.

To keep folks like you happy, we kust sit back and watch their ranks grow.

[NaturalHigh]

111. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem...

Fair enough. I just don't think your side has the solution. I think the gun-control "cultists" will only cause new problems.

[baldguy]

123. You're using the PeeWee Herman defense?

"I know you are, but what am I?", is not part of any reasonable, rational, mature solution. OTOH, the proposals of the "gun control cultists" actually work in every other industrialized democracy on the planet.

Like Michael says in the video: We've tried it YOUR way, RWers. Your way has failed - [i[spectacularly. Everything is much, much worse now than it was 30 yrs ago. You should step aside & let serious people work to solve these problems that you've created.

[NaturalHigh]

126. The only thing I know about PeeWee Herman is the theater incident.

Please tell the residents of Chicago and D.C., with the strictest gun laws in the nation, how well your solutions work.

[baldguy]

133. The guns from Chicago and D.C. don't come from Chicago and D.C.

And so you've just proven the need for national gun control legislation.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

165. According to Bloomberg that makes MM a drain on the system.

[baldguy]

170. If you have no clue about the issues you should refrain from commenting.

Here's a hint: Stop taking RW propaganda as the gods' honest truth. It isn't.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

172. What RW propaganda? You mentioned MM's weight. I noted Bloomberg says obesity drains the system.

[cbrer]

96. Moore was successful at stimulating this discussion

Among others I'm quite sure.

Even if the percentage is incorrect, inaccurate, unprovable, pushing an agenda, racist...

Millions of Americans, hell TENS of millions of Americans, won't be giving up their guns until this society has moved closer to practicing the golden rule.

The biblical one. Not Gordon Gekko's version.

[morningfog]

116. It was successful at tickling the easy to tickle suburban white guys with guns.

Never a quicker group to leap to play the victim.

[cbrer]

127. Shooting fish in a barrel yes...

But notice how a fairly broad spread of Liberals/Progressives joined in.

[Puglover]

135. It is so weird.

I am at my home in Ecuador and yesterday was out running some errands with my favorite cab driver and Spanish teacher Jorge. The subject turned to guns. After I told him about the gun problems in the US and about Sandy Hook (no he had not heard) he just looked at me and said, "But Jeffrey it's so simple, get rid of the guns. We don't have them here, yes bad people get them but eventually they are put in jail." "Why would people in such a beautiful country like the United States need guns?"

Outside of our nutty country people just don't get it. One of the big reasons I am down here.

[baldguy]

136. Gun owners love their guns more than they love their children.

Gun owners especially love their guns more than they love other people's children.

[Lizzie Poppet]

171. Congratulations: that's the most egregious example of false dichotomy I've encountered in years.

Please tell me you knew that and were just "firing for effect."

[baldguy]

179. Actually, given the posts I've seen by the gun nuts on DU, I'm spot on.

Children get murdered; the NRA, their murder-friendly pro-criminal RW allies and the extremist gun nuts say nothing can be done, other than to get more guns in circulation.

This insane policy has been in place way for decades: After every massacre and every time people wake up and realize the truth about the on-going massacre, the RW Death Lobby has risen in opposition to any rational gun control, and has monkey-wrenched any practical legislation that has passed in spite of their best efforts. The result has been: more deaths, more massacres, and more children in body bags. In response the RW Death Lobby has only insisted that more guns and less regulation is the ONLY answer. And the average gun owner has been duped into believing their lies.

Well, the RW Death Lobby has failed - Everything is much, much worse now than it was 30 yrs ago, and it's getting worse. This RW Death Lobby should step aside & let serious people work to solve these problems that they've created.

[Lizzie Poppet]

180. You're moving the goalposts.

You just went from "gun owners" to "the NRA, their murder-friendly pro-criminal RW allies and the extremist gun nuts." You do recognize that the latter is a tiny subset of the former, right? The majority of gun owners (of my acquaintance AND as reflected in national polls) support many reasonable regulations like expanded background checks, stiff penalties for traffickers and straw purchasers, and so forth.

[baldguy]

187. They are the same.

At least until the "simple gun owners" - especially those who claim to be any sort of liberal - show some light between their position and that of the crazy RW contingent, beyond mere rhetoric.

These "simple gun owners" say they "support" reasonable regulations. At least until those regulations actually come up for a vote. These "simple gun owners" say responsibility is important, but have no care when gun owners act irresponsibly, and they howl in protest when the majority wakes up and requires laws to force gun owners to act responsibly. These "simple gun owners" claim that they're not racist, but go on to complain about the "gang bangers", "urban youths" and "druggies", in short anyone they can cast as The Other whom they blame for all the urban gun violence America endures, at the same time they mock the people that must suffer through the same urban gun violence, whom they also can cast as The Other. These "simple gun owners" refuse to acknowledge the obvious connection between the ease of which they can access guns and the outrageous number of guns in circulation, with the prevalence of gun violence. These "simple gun owners" repeat the propaganda, misinformation and outright lies of the extremist RW crazies as Gospel Truth and endlessly defend it, in spite of the massive amounts of evidence proving those RW lies to be false. And when someone stands up to point out just how insane America's gun laws are, these "simple gun owners" attack that person, whether it's Michael Moore, or Rachel Maddow, or Andrew Cuomo, or Michael Bloomberg, or Diane Feinstein - or me.

For proof of any or all of this, just look at the responses in this thread.

[Lizzie Poppet]

190. Except they very clearly and demonstrably are NOT the same.

As I previously pointed out, polling indicates very clearly that a majority of gun owners support expanded background checks and cracking down on traffickers and straw purchasers, two name but two proposals getting a lot of attention recently. Not just liberal gun owners like me...a majority of all gun owners. The hardcore NRA fringe are outliers, and that renders your claim of broad equivalency null, You're simply wrong about that.

As far as gang-related urban gun violence goes, it is a statistically-verifiable fact that a very high percentage of gun-related violence is indeed gang-related. Pointing that out isn't racist (unless accompanied by some sort of claim that it indicates racial inferiority or a propensity towards criminal behavior or some such horseshit). Sticking our collective head in the sand in response to that fact is not just counterproductive, I'd assert that it is itself a somewhat racist response. Is access to firearms a component of this horrifying level of "urban" violence. Undoubtedly so. Is it the sole reason (or even a primary factor)? Pretty damned unlikely, IMO.

[baldguy]

193. I won't hold my breath for these mythical "simple gun owners" to show their progressive creds by

Defending rational arguments in favor gun control (which are supported by the overwhelming majority of Americans) against the RW extremist Death Lobby.

[Lizzie Poppet]

194. You needn't. It's already been done countless times.

Lose the blinders...

[baldguy]

195. When? Where?

Here? No.

[hughee99]

209. Exactly, gun owners are all a bunch of fucking NRA extremists.

He must have gotten the Secretary of State job because of all the NRA influence.


http://www.ontheissues.org/2004/John_Kerry_Gun_Control.htm
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/01/sen_john_kerry_co-sponsors_gun.html

[Nuclear Unicorn]

212. "the NRA, their murder-friendly pro-criminal RW"

If they advocate criminal behavior why would new laws stop them?

When was the last time a drug cartel lobbied against stricter drug laws?

[baldguy]

216. Because they have people like you to support them.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

217. That doesn't even make sense.

Me:

If they advocate criminal behavior why would new laws stop them?

You:

Because they have people like you to support them.

What you're essentially saying is that the only thing stopping them from breaking the laws you want to see passed would be my presumed support. The NRA and I have no history together but even if we did I doubt they would take their legal cues from l'il ol' me.

[baldguy]

218. The extremist RW has a long history of giving terrorist groups political power

& the influence that goes with it.



The gun nut Death Lobby headed by the NRA is just one more.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

219. Gee, a picture. Well, that pretty much makes it irrefutable. Here's a more recent one --

Dasterdly Klanner?

That still doesn't answer my question -- false associations aside -- you asserted the NRA fosters criminal activity to its benefit. If that were the case then why would more laws serve as a remedy? If they're criminals then they already ignore laws and if criminal activity is profitable for them then what you propose will correspondingly increase their profits just as anti-drug laws profit the drug cartels.

But apparently my support for the NRA -- despite my absolute lack of history with them -- will turn them from their wicked ways or something.

[hack89]

139. Considering Ecuador's gun homicide rate is higher than America's

and their murder rate is three times that of America's, I am not sure that Ecuador is the best example to hold up if you are advocating gun control.


http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/ecuador

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[Puglover]

166. LOL I live here Hack.

You have your cute little blue links and an agenda. The next time someone in Ecuador busts into a classroom and takes out 20 7 year olds you can feel free to PM me and gloat.

Nice try though.

And even though I don't actually read your posts because when I see your name it is a foregone conclusion what they advocate for;

welcome to ignore.

[hack89]

167. Those "cute blue links" are called facts. nt

[Lizzie Poppet]

174. Facts: perhaps you've heard of them.

Ecuador rate of gun homicides per 100k (2008): 12.7 (source: UNODC. 2011. Homicide in 207 Countries)
US rate of gun homicides per 100k (2008): 4.01 (same source)

Derp.

[Puglover]

188. Same offer goes to you as to

your buddy. When someone in Ecuador blows away 20 seven year olds in a classroom you can email me and gloat.

You can join him on my ignore lizzy. You two can play with your guns together.

Funny this is I am not even "anti gun" It's just so darned cute watching you people come unglued when anyone even questions the gun crazed culture of the US.

[Lizzie Poppet]

189. Ah, so four times the gun-related murder rate is unimportant to you.

Apparently OH GOD, THINK OF THE CHILDREN is all that matters. A four-times-higher murder rate is irrelevant...because hey, it's just a bunch of brown (adult) people, right?

By all means please ignore me. Attempting rational conversation with the hysterical is a waste of my time.

[Marengo]

200. Do you reject the statistic stated in Lizzie's Post?

Do you have something to counter it?

[Lizzie Poppet]

210. Easier, apparently, to employ the "ostrich defense" and ignore anything inconvenient.

Shouldn't have wasted my time...

[laundry_queen]

201. And you know what?

Like Canada, a good portion of the gun deaths in these countries are caused by guns that COME FROM THE US!! They are purchased legally in the US by some criminal (who just hasn't been caught yet so doesn't have a record) who then ships them out. Gun stores in the US are not held responsible for it either - even when they suspect what is going on. A huge part of Canada's problem with guns is because we don't have enough manpower to stop illegal shipments at the border. It's not that OUR gun control isn't working - it's that YOU have NONE.

[hack89]

205. Cracking down on the illegal gun trade should be a top priority

you will not get any argument from me on the need to stop the flow of illegal guns.

[laundry_queen]

208. The problem being

The NRA is trying to stop anyone from getting information about 'bulk buys' from a lot of these gun shops. The NRA *knows* some of these guns are going to end up in criminal's hands but don't want to do anything about it. It took the CBC documentary to expose one gun shop owner, who finally had the state step in, no thanks to the NRA who was trying to help cover it up.

[hack89]

211. The NRA is wrong

hopefully we can find a way around them to fix the problem.

[In_The_Wind]

138. Laws need to be changed. Think about a psychiatric evaluation before allowing a gun purchase.

[hack89]

140. How would that work?

how long an exam? What criteria for evaluation? What criteria for denial? What process for appeal?

[In_The_Wind]

141. The new gun owner will need to prove that he or she is sane.

Let the law maker work out the details.

[hack89]

143. That would be extremely low bar

anyone with a mental issue that precluded gun ownership would have been identified well before they were old enough to buy a gun. They would have a history of treatment or a criminal record or both. The idea that someone with no prior history of mental illness is going to be deemed not sane enough to buy a gun is ludicrous.

The real solution is single payer healthcare with mental health coverage. Lets identify dangerous people well before they are old enough to buy a gun.

[In_The_Wind]

145. Not necessarily. Some adult gun owners have lost_it due to stress in everyday life.

How do we deal with them.
I suggest reevaluation of current gun owners also.

[hack89]

146. Mental health professionals cannot tell the future

it is impossible to tell how a person will react to future stress. Yes - if someone says "I am so stressed I want to kill someone." then that person should not have a gun. But who is going to say that when the purpose of the exam is to buy a gun?

Everyone has stress in their lives at some time - are you suggesting that they should not have guns?

[In_The_Wind]

147. No. Not at all. However: If someone has been institutionalized with suicidal mental issues ...

do you think they should be a gun owner.


I don't.

[hack89]

149. That is already illegal under federal law

(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—

(4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution;

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

This site has every state's law on regulating guns and the mentally ill.

http://www.ncsl.org/issues-research/justice/possession-of-a-firearm-by-the-mentally-ill.aspx

Perhaps you should learn our current laws before proposing new ones.

[In_The_Wind]

153. Until now ... there was no reason for me to read these things. Thank you!

[hack89]

154. You're welcome. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

162. There aren't enough psychiatrists in America to give that many tests per year.

In 2012 there were 19,592,303 NICS checks by FFLs. You would need that many psych exams per year.

[In_The_Wind]

164. Oh crap!

[Mr Dixon]

148. SMH

No surprised, but I’m puzzled why some people are so fearful, I watch Vanguard last nite and they were addressing the “ Stand your Ground Law and training” all old white people except for a few younger lone wolf types. I thought it was pretty clear that these so called gun trainers were profiting off of fear, the old ladies looked scared to deaf. Also I noticed that these people were being trained to shoot people in the back when the so-called preps were leaving (no shots fired until they turned they backs?)

[Hoyt]

152. It really is obvious what is going on, to everyone but those steeped in guns.

[Robb]

150. 0% of people who hate Michael Moore are progressives.

The vitriol is wholly transparent. A wharrgarble of gun-cuddling protestations, logical fallacies not worthy of a 4 year old.

Predictable as sunrise.

[RZM]

158. Nope

I know somebody who was a member of an organization that sponsored a Michael Moore talk at a university. He and many others left with a very negative impression of Moore on a personal level. The person who told me this is a solid progressive - that's why Moore was brought there in the first place. Apparently he was very rude to everybody and acted like a diva. I wasn't there so I can't say for sure that was the case. But the source had no reason to lie at all. He's very liberal . . . he just thought Moore is an ass.

I've heard the same thing here on DU about Dennis Kucinich. Apparently there are more than a few veterans of Ohio Democratic politics who just don't like the guy.

Whether or not Moore is a nice guy, his strong suit is domestic economic issues. I think he's at his best when talking about that. He's much less effective talking about anything else. It's not that he's always wrong, it's just that he's not nearly as good when working outside of his specialty. I've found his work on guns and foreign policy to be of much lower quality than his work about income inequality, etc. He's not a man for all seasons, but one who does only one particular thing pretty well.

[Robb]

160. Heh. Well, there is a difference between disagreeing with his position on a matter

...and choosing to dismiss his work on those opinions as "poor quality."

For the record, I suppose I'd characterize most people I disagree with as having not thought out things well enough.

[Bluenorthwest]

151. The 'quote' from Moore in the OP title is not complete and I think intentionally so. Unfair to the

issue at hand as well as to Moore and to DUers.
"“Did you realize that over 90% of the guns in this country are owned by white people in the suburbs and in rural areas?"

Gallup long term polling tells us this:
Further, more than half of those living in rural areas (56%) own a gun, compared with 40% of suburbanites and 29% of those living in urban areas.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/14509/americans-guns-danger-defense.aspx

So Moore is basically correct when one counts suburbs and rural ownership, rural people being by far the most likely to own a gun or guns. If it is as the OP claims 'the suburbs' only, the figure would be very incorrect.
It is possible that the editing of the quote, still presented as a quote with quotation marks and a period added after 'suburbs' which does not belong in that place, was done to make for argument rather than accurate discussion.

[hack89]

155. Now show us the racial composition of the suburbs and rural areas

so we have the complete picture.

[Bluenorthwest]

156. How is that my job? I'm talking about what Moore actually said as opposed to what the OP typed.

I tend to agree with Mike and I really dislike the tactic of editing or changing what a person said when repeating it. Moore did not say 90% are owned by whites in the suburbs, but that is exactly what the OP types as a quote.
It is never fair to edit a quote and claim that it is the full quote, it is simply dishonest and in this case it seriously changes what Moore said. So instead of discussing Moore's actual words in this thread, folks are arguing with the OP. People should skip the OP entirely and stick with what Moore actually said, use the Google and see that Mike is correct. The title of the OP is not correct, and it is not a quote from Michale Moore. Both things are about exploiting the issue for argument fodder. And that does no good for anyone.

[hack89]

157. I agree the OP was inaccurate. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

204. And that was my point along with the fact that the inaccuracy is intentional.

It misuses Moore, lies to DU, craps on the facts and seems to do so in order to create argument rather than discussion. I don't give a shit if a person playing such games 'agrees with me' or not, I will never approve of such tactics. It is morally absent to edit out part of a quote and foist the part as if it were the whole. To do so about such important subject mater indicates to me that the OP is more interested in exploiting the issue than exploring the issue.

[hack89]

206. I agree with you. nt

[britaphilter]

168. Moore pulled a Bachmann

Unsubstantiated stat.

[Xithras]

169. 36% of suburban homes have firearms. 26% of urban homes have firearms. 1 in 6 black homes have one.

Pew Research Survey, December 2012.

The real numbers were just a 30 second Google away, if anyone cared to look. Based off that, I'm fairly sure that Moore's "statistic" was BS he made up on the fly.

[baldguy]

173. Actually, they have.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2563751

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022563342#post79

But then, if you're complaining about the ratio of households to guns - which Michael Moore is not talking about - rather than the ratio of guns to people - which he is - that indicates to me that your reading comprehension skills are, shall we say, less than perfect.

[Xithras]

176. Ultimately, the number of actual guns is a distraction from the real issue.

If someone is mentally fit and capable of owning a gun, only an idiot would argue that he's more of a risk because he owns two of them. Either you're capable or you're not. Either you're a threat or you're not.

The important issue is the WHO, not the HOW MANY.

[baldguy]

178. The REAL issue is that there are too many god damned guns in circulation.

Any gun of any type in circulation is a threat to public safety. Most aren't used for hunting or protection. They are merely dangerous toys and status symbols. The reasonable policy would be to remove the great majority of them from circulation. But in doing so some RW extremist gun nuts would - with the support of a large part of the gun nut community - actually start shooting officers doing their duty & other innocents who happened to get in the way. This probable violent reaction of the extremist gun nut community DEFINES them as being a threat to public safety, along with their guns.

Unfortunately, America continues to labor under this threat from RW extremist gun nuts - and they have political power. So we can only pass more restrictive gun control laws on a national basis, and allow the number of guns to be reduced by attrition. It's not the best way; it's not the simplest way; it's not the most reasonable way. But it's the only way that's left open to us.

[Jenoch]

185. You are correct when you write

"Most aren't used for hunting or protection." Most guns are just sitting in people's houses doing nothing, endangering nobody, and are just objects. My father is 81 years old. He bought his first gun when he was 12. It was a 12 gauge shotgun and he still has it. His father hated guns. Actually, the first gun my dad got was a bb gun and his father broke it over his knee. When my dad bought his shotgun he hid it in the barn so his dad wouldn't not break it. When my father started to bring home wild game that he shot, then he no longer had to keep the gun hidden from my grandfather.

You are at one extreme end of the gun-control discussion. There are others who want the gun laws we already have relaxed, and then there is the vast majority in the middle who may or may not own guns, but they mostly keep to themselves, as do their guns.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

215. If a nationwide confiscation would spark a violent resistance why promote a nationwide confiscation?

All you have to do is not pick a fight.