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Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:26 PM

If Catholics stopped being welcome in the Democratic Party, rightst fundies would soon go unchecked.

Talk about a potent wedge issue for dividing the Democratic coalition - it don't get more effective than encouraging "progressives" to launch wholesale attacks on a church with many millions of Democratic voters within its ranks. And I am not talking about being critical of some church dogma or about being angry over some church scandals. But some use that as a mere jumping off point for being critical of ordinary Catholics for remaining Catholic as long as this or that is wrong with the Catholic Church as an institution or reflective of some of those who serve it.

And though saying that it is fine for someone to remain Catholic as long as they don't give a cent to ANYTHING organized by or through the Catholic Church could theoretically be said to represent a reasonable and respectful position towards practicing Catholics, in the real world it will not exactly win many friends or influence many people who do not already share that viewpoint and associated priorities. Most people don't like being told to give up their religious beliefs or practices (including donating to their religion) and react poorly to those who make that an acid test of who can be considered to have and practice positive social values.

I know there is a great deal of honest anger with aspects of the Cathlic Church, but sustained friendly fire within the Democratic Coalition is a trolls equivalent of a secular heaven.

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Reply If Catholics stopped being welcome in the Democratic Party, rightst fundies would soon go unchecked. (Original post)
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 OP
MellowDem Mar 2013 #1
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #21
Dragonfli Mar 2013 #29
MellowDem Mar 2013 #47
pnwmom Mar 2013 #48
Puzzledtraveller Mar 2013 #51
musical_soul Mar 2013 #55
life long demo Mar 2013 #82
Coyotl Mar 2013 #2
musical_soul Mar 2013 #56
sadbear Mar 2013 #3
etherealtruth Mar 2013 #5
Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #81
etherealtruth Mar 2013 #107
DevonRex Mar 2013 #11
sadbear Mar 2013 #12
DevonRex Mar 2013 #13
DevonRex Mar 2013 #14
sadbear Mar 2013 #17
LeftInTX Mar 2013 #18
DevonRex Mar 2013 #22
sadbear Mar 2013 #35
patrice Mar 2013 #24
arely staircase Mar 2013 #34
Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2013 #49
life long demo Mar 2013 #84
sadbear Mar 2013 #91
bluestate10 Mar 2013 #4
lunasun Mar 2013 #8
life long demo Mar 2013 #26
lunasun Mar 2013 #36
musical_soul Mar 2013 #57
Progressive dog Mar 2013 #78
ieoeja Mar 2013 #41
muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #46
Cleita Mar 2013 #6
libtodeath Mar 2013 #7
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #9
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #25
southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #33
Populist_Prole Mar 2013 #10
movonne Mar 2013 #16
Populist_Prole Mar 2013 #23
Pullo Mar 2013 #30
thucythucy Mar 2013 #105
The Straight Story Mar 2013 #15
Richardo Mar 2013 #32
musical_soul Mar 2013 #58
ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #19
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #37
ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #38
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #40
DirkGently Mar 2013 #62
onpatrol98 Mar 2013 #77
DirkGently Mar 2013 #86
onpatrol98 Mar 2013 #101
DirkGently Mar 2013 #108
TommyCelt Mar 2013 #106
etherealtruth Mar 2013 #20
still_one Mar 2013 #27
trotsky Mar 2013 #28
mountain grammy Mar 2013 #54
Richardo Mar 2013 #31
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #39
jeff47 Mar 2013 #42
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #43
jeff47 Mar 2013 #44
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #45
jeff47 Mar 2013 #50
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #67
jeff47 Mar 2013 #97
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #100
life long demo Mar 2013 #87
DirkGently Mar 2013 #60
jeff47 Mar 2013 #94
DirkGently Mar 2013 #109
Renew Deal Mar 2013 #52
jeff47 Mar 2013 #93
Renew Deal Mar 2013 #95
jeff47 Mar 2013 #98
corneliamcgillicutty Mar 2013 #53
progressoid Mar 2013 #61
DirkGently Mar 2013 #63
progressoid Mar 2013 #64
DirkGently Mar 2013 #66
progressoid Mar 2013 #71
corneliamcgillicutty Mar 2013 #65
progressoid Mar 2013 #68
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #69
progressoid Mar 2013 #70
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #73
corneliamcgillicutty Mar 2013 #79
DirkGently Mar 2013 #59
Orsino Mar 2013 #72
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #74
Orsino Mar 2013 #80
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #92
Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #83
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #88
hughee99 Mar 2013 #75
bowens43 Mar 2013 #76
Zoeisright Mar 2013 #85
LAGC Mar 2013 #89
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #90
DirkGently Mar 2013 #110
Dorian Gray Mar 2013 #96
Marrah_G Mar 2013 #99
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #102
TommyCelt Mar 2013 #103
DCBob Mar 2013 #104

Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:36 PM

1. DU is not the Democratic Party...

which, as a whole, is a lot more conservative than DU.

I don't see people saying Catholics can't be liberals, or part of the Democratic Party, or on DU, I just see people asking legitimate questions and criticizing people for associating and identifying with a homophobic and misogynist organization. Such criticism wouldn't cause any controversy on here if the organization was a secular one, but religion still gets special treatment.

It isn't friendly fire, or a purge, it's asking sincere and honest questions and making legitimate criticisms.

When an organization that discriminates against you and your friends, and lends monetary support to those who would take away yours and other's rights appoints a new leader, and there is a thread on DU congratulating members of that organization for their new leader, who holds the same bigoted beliefs, try to imagine how that feels. Just because it's a religion doesn't mean it or its members should get a pass.

DU is a great place of all to have these sorts of discussions. No, this isn't saying that the Democratic Party should begin a purge of purity. It's being able to have deep and relevant discussions on the issues that oftentimes is not possible anywhere else, because of the realities you cite.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:20 PM

21. To parse your words just a bit

"criticizing people for associating and identifying with a homophobic and misogynist organization" moves toward the territory of saying "Catholics can't be liberal" given what our pretty much consensus definition of what being a liberal involves. Not precisely I admit, but there are strong undertones of that type condemnation implied within that quote. Look, this all falls within the realm of subjective to an extent. Asking legitimate questions is a horse of a slightly different color including respectfully asking something like "How do you as a liberal in good conscience feel comfortable being in the Catholic Church?" if that question is sincere and not a set up for pouncing on someone no matter what they reply.

See, that is the personal part. I think most liberal Catholics are not offended about criticism of the Catholic Church in and of itself. And that includes the Pope and pedophile priests and current church dogma on priests having to be males etc. Plenty of Catholics are unhappy with many aspects of the Catholic Church, but they want the dignity of having their choice accepted or at least not attacked should they chose to remain in the Catholic Church for other reasons, or to fight for change from within it.

You know there is that ancient folklore saying that you can catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Asking Catholics to consider refraining from giving any financial support to the Church in any form comes across quite differently than condemning those who still do.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:46 PM

29. Not all the donnations go to the Pope, you have no idea what good

The organization Catholic Charities has done at least in Buffalo. They help those that the safety net spits out like a bad taste and work with and on behalf of people that would now be homeless without such help. They also make sure that those that need psychiatric help get access to it. They provide counseling to people reaching their end that would likely commit suicide if not helped in time. They provide food and hope to those that the great liberals of suburbia give only pity and condescension to. They do this without proselytizing if you mistakenly believe that to be the case.

Liberal Catholics believe in works as well as faith while most evangelicals feel that works matter not at all, only grace, and it shows in their Calvinistic attitude towards the poor and this odd belief that the wealthy are blessed by God and are his favorites.

I'm a goddamn witch and even I can see that nuns on a bus and the volunteers that give their time and money to help the poor are NOT THE FUCKING SAME as the Opus Dei freaks, Catholics where I grew up at least, are very liberal and the first to offer help to those that need it.

I have many issues with the church, many very serious issues, but not with the Catholics I know, The hatred towards my friendliest neighbors is really starting to piss me off.

Get to know your neighbors.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #21)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:28 PM

47. Not at all...

Criticizing liberals for associating with bigoted and conservative organizatoins is not saying "you can't be liberal", it's saying, "hey, you're liberal, so why are you part of these organizations?" It's pointing out cognitive dissonance or intellectual dishonesty. There are no strong undertones. I think many people on here are very sensitive and offended when it comes to criticism aimed at religion, but if it was a secular organization, there would be no controversy.

I'm guessing all Catholics would rather you criticize the Church heirarchy only and say "but yes, the people who choose to still be members, their A-OK". But that's just a great way to deflect the question and not deal with the fact that they are associating themsevles with that heirarchy.

Religious people have no more "right" to have their "dignity" protected by shutting up all relevant legitimate criticism of their association with a bigoted organization. And yes, they will be criticized for remaining part of an incredibly bigoted, top-down organization that has no way for these liberals to change it, even as this same institution actively discriminates and spouts bigotry of all sorts.

I'm sure people would never like to be criticized, but tip-toeing around such subjects to not hurt someone's percieved "dignity" is not required and not effective either. That's part of the problem of religion, it gets such a huge pass and is allowed to continue to do things with much less scrutiny than secular organizations get because of this privilege it has as somehow being above criticism. No, your personal religious beliefs are no more off-limits than your personal political beliefs.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:34 PM

48. It feels like a purge to Catholics here. n/t

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 10:05 AM

51. but Mellow, sooooo many DU'ers think this is the Demorcatis Party.

Not sarcasm, sadly. Great post btw, I think you nailed it.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:11 AM

55. I give to the RCC.

Somebody has to keep the lights on.

The RCC is also known for helping the poor. They usually have pretty good schools.

I don't consider myself to be giving money to those who want to hurt gays. It's not like the Pope gets a vote.

Let's put it another way. We're a big bulk of your party's votes. Through all the whining and complaining about the Democratic Party supposedly being bad for the church, a good chunk of Catholics voted that way. Just food for thought.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #1)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:30 PM

82. Flames, flames, flames

I know it's a few days after you posted your comment, I came back to read it again. I still feel the same insult. I am Catholic, I am Democratic, I am liberal. I have been all of those all my life, you can say I was born into it, it's in my genes. I'm 70, do you have a problem with me?

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:41 PM

2. If only true Christians were allowed in the Republican Party ....

there would be no Republican Party

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #2)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:12 AM

56. Not that I agree with social conservativism. I don't.....

but I really don't like to get into the one true scotsman idea.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:43 PM

3. We shouldn't compromise on reproductive issues and marriage equality to appeal Catholics, though.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:47 PM

5. I don't think liberal Catholics have asked for this or want this

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Response to etherealtruth (Reply #5)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:19 PM

81. And no one has called for Catholics to leave the Democratic Party, and yet here is this OP

pretending that is the case.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #81)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 06:18 PM

107. Of course not

Why would the party want to rid itself of good Democrats?

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:29 PM

11. Breaking News! Catholics use birth control and have abortions.

They don't pay any attention to their priests on those issues any more than southern women do to their nut job preachers and politicians. Ever looked at the rate of teen pregnancy and abortion in the South? Why the hell do you think the politicians are trying to get rid of abortion clinics there? Because they are utilized.

You have some research to do. There aren't that many Catholics in the South except for LA. Catholic women USE birth control. And need fewer abortions because of it.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:33 PM

12. I know they belong to another demographic,

but there are LOTS of Catholics in the South. And they don't have get abortions either; they just have very large families.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:44 PM

13. Not where I'm from.

Very, very few in fact. Two families in the entire county. Regular families. Two and three kids each.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:48 PM

14. Just curious. Another demographic? Italian? Irish? Mexican?

My husband is Italian. Catholic. We have two children. We used birth control. Any other comments about Catholics and demographics?

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #14)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:50 PM

17. 1st and 2nd generation Mexican-Americans.

Of course, our definition of 'the South' may not be the same.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:01 PM

18. Many that vote have smaller families

I live in an area that is 70% Mexican-American.

I also worked in the maternity ward.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:21 PM

22. Ah, so you think Americans of Mexican descent all have 10 kids.

My first years were spent in Texas. That was not even true back then, much less now. It's not true for Italians or the Irish or any other Catholic demographic you can name, as long as they have access to birth control. Like everyone else on the planet, access to health care is the issue - not religion. You've made some disturbing generalizations.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #22)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:02 PM

35. I never said 10 children.

I just said large families, which relative to Anglo families, is true.

Of course, access to BC vs. religious prohibition of it is an issue. I don't think it's quite as clear cut as you make it, though.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:24 PM

24. Though it has been politcally bastardized in a gambit to own SCOTUS more completely, Pro-Life

teachings in their original form were about a more complete gestalt of social and economic justice, in which anti-War and anti-Capital Punishment were NOT optional.

One aspect of Pro-CHOICE that is kind of glossed over is whether people are authentically making a choice . If there's only one thing to choose, abortion, there's no choice. Are people free enough to choose one or the other, motherhood or abortion, or are their decisions coerced by overt or covert factors that are, intentionally or otherwise, being ignored?, such as economic justice, or social injustices like the oppression of sexual orientation, which mitigate in favor of pregnancy above all else. Obviously, absolute freedom is extremely rare, because freedom is not a zero-sum commodity, but there are real questions about the extent, the degree, to which any given decision is the result of oppression of one kind or another, compared to the degree to which it is sourced in a free un-coerced volition.

Though I may disagree with how any given woman makes that kind of decision/"choice", I WILL defend the freedom of ALL women to make their own CHOICES, pro- or anti- pregnancy, as freely and honestly as possible in their own circumstances, because right or wrong, it is that call to mature responsibility in whatever one decides, and the freedom to engage that responsibility fully on one's own terms, that will result in the happiest people (women, children, mothers, parents, families, non-families) all around, because it makes it possible for individual people to learn from their own lives, from what they get right and what they get wrong, and it is that personalized learning that makes authentic change/life possible.

With the exception that LGBTQ do not choose to be whom they are, most of these points about social and economic justice also apply to them in a similar manner, because, though (like women) they are who/what they are, there are also choices to be made about how they live their own truths and those choices are affected by social and economic justice.

Fundamentally related social and economic principles are inherent in the original Pro-Life teachings which recognized how pregnancy, war, and criminality are affected by the facts of social and economic in/justice. Much of that was reinforced, subsequently, by Vatican II.

The RC church has been trying to FORGET Vatican II for at least the last 30 years as they PROSTITUTED their original Pro-life/Pro-Social-and-Economic-Justice principles for political payoffs, which, I personally believe, achieved their culmination in the AMERICAN RC church's tacit (and covert though quite strong) support of the War on Iraq, which was supposed to earn George Bush the political capital #1. to privatize Social Security (in order to insure the protection of the banks in the financial crisis that they all knew was headed our way) and #2. to nominate an appropriately anti-Choice, and likely RC church picked, justice to SCOTUS in order to over-turn Roe v. Wade.

I guess what I'm trying to tell you, sadbear, (in a rather too quick sketch I'm sorry to say) is that there indeed forces within the RC church about whom your concerns are justified. There are also authentically Catholic forces within the RC church who are your OLDEST and deepest allies against oppression and that includes, most especially, royal religious political oppression of women, children, and our LGBT brothers and sisters.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:17 PM

34. and we have never had to; most american catholics completely ignore that edic.

at elast the reproductive side of it. i haven't really seen stats, on polls on rank and file catholics on marirage equality, but i be they are much more for equality than their churches leadership.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:39 PM

49. But seldom can disagreement be expressed without it degenerating into vilification. n/t

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:37 PM

84. I have not heard one Catholic on DU EVER ask for compromise

on reproductive issues and marriage equality. May I ask who the "we" is that you are referring to?

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Response to life long demo (Reply #84)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:05 PM

91. I'm not referring to Catholics on DU.

I'm pretty sure they're priorities are in order. I'm talking about Catholics not on DU.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:44 PM

4. What is this over wrought stuff? Catholics make up parts of both major parties.

With the exception of Hispanics, there are more Catholics calling themselves republican and voting with republicans, including the hard right fundies. I know one Catholic on the US Supreme Court that I wished would retire and not be there. I was in a cemetery earlier today and saw a headstone that read "Scalia", I apologize to the family of the person buried there and to God for the terribly evil thought that momentarily crossed my mind, one should never wish another person dead.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:55 PM

8. Clarence Thomas, Alito and Roberts are Catholic too

I myself (and I know it means nothing but I myself) only know Catholics that are repugs
no dems
Now it' s a party of people that can not say anything that offends Catholics??
Seems Catholics are offended by a lot of things that are none of their biz IMO

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Response to lunasun (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:45 PM

26. I found your comment very surprising. I grew up in a very blue collar

town in PA. The majority was Catholic of various ethnic groups. The majority of the town was Democratic. There was a time I use to think all Catholics were Democrats. It is different now, yes. I find the more fundamental Catholics tend to be republicans. And Social justice Catholics tend to be Democratic. I am loosely generalizing here, but it's pretty close. And no, not all Democrats are Catholic, just in case someone misunderstands what I'm stating.

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Response to life long demo (Reply #26)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:38 PM

36. yes fundy like & not blue collar at all but republicans for sure -signs and bumper stickers say so

The church here is anti choice pro adam and eve that much I know from declarations on their sign outside
I do not have any close friends that are present day Catholic, just folks I know from the community, neighbourhood, that belong to the RCC.
and yes that's why I said I know it is just my experience but also it is not just Scalia that is Catholic in conservative SCOTUS either!

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Response to lunasun (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:15 AM

57. And Joe Biden.

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Response to lunasun (Reply #8)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:53 PM

78. the entire RW majority on the SCOTUS are Catholic

as is Sotomayor.

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Response to bluestate10 (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 10:54 AM

41. Where do you get the idea that White, Non-Latino Catholics mostly support Republicans?


And when did that change? Catholics were pretty strongly Democratic for most of my life. I did not realize that had changed. They certainly still dominate the 100% Democratic Chicago. And I believe they represent a significant portion of the Democratic base in most major Northeastern cities.

Then there is the Bible Belt where Catholics tend to vote Democratic in response to the hatred aimed their way by the majority.


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Response to ieoeja (Reply #41)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 02:06 PM

46. The idea comes from the presidential exit polls for this century

The white Catholic vote:
2000: Gore 45%, Bush 52%
2004: Kerry 43%, Bush 56%
2008: Obama 47%, McCain 52%
2012: Obama 40%, Romney 59%

http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/How-the-Faithful-Voted-2012-Preliminary-Exit-Poll-Analysis.aspx

So, yeah, it would be nice if they had supported the Democratic candidate more than the Republican some time in the last 13 years, but they haven't. Even when the Dem was a white Catholic himself. And it was the worst of all in 2012.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:47 PM

6. I thought that's what atheists were for.

However, since many Catholics of immigrant backgrounds like Irish and Italian are also working class and union members. Democrats can't afford to lose union members.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:53 PM

7. We shouldnt pander to any one group for political purposes

the democratic party needs to be looking out for all that are under the boot heel of the 1%.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:08 PM

9. I don't think it's anyone's business to tell a catholic which party to join. We don't need anyone's

 

approval because it is our right as free americans to vote. Now to me this is silly talk and laughable. I have always been a catholic from birth and since I have been able to vote I always vote dem.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:31 PM

25. Of course it isn't. Who suggests that it might be?

There are Catholics in every political party for the same reasons that there are maembers of every religion in every Party, and non-beievers too. However if there were a significant shift in the future of Democrats staying home or voting Republican instead of Democratic on election days - that would make it much more difficult for Democrats to win many national and state elections.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:04 PM

33. Well lets hope they will vote for the Dems because republicans are still riding the crazy train.

 

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:19 PM

10. I dunno: a couple of catholics I know left the democratic party anyway

They're still as overtly "catholic" as they ever were ( based on the stuff they say ) but turned suddenly into hard right bigots and now vote repub.

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Response to Populist_Prole (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:50 PM

16. The Catholics I know are very liberal and one of

them use to be a nun...

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Response to movonne (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:23 PM

23. Wish that were the case with my friends but it aint.

They were more center-left before a black man ran for president. Disgusting.

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Response to movonne (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:50 PM

30. My mother often joins a prayer group filled with very progressive nuns

I know it sounds strange, but they advocate all sorts of progressive causes. Back during the Iraq war, they were involved in many anti-war protests. They also promote sustainable farming practices.

I think it would be foolish to exclude people based on religious preferences. It would be undemocratic IMO.

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Response to Pullo (Reply #30)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:16 PM

105. Historically, there have been many courageously progressive

Catholics, and I don't see why it should be any different today.

In the US we had Bob and Ted Kennedy and the Berrigan Brothers, to cite only a few of the more famous examples.

In Latin America we had the whole liberation theology movement, which was instrumental in overthrowing Somoza.

The idea of purging Catholics or making progressive Catholics unwelcome in the Democratic Party is not only intolerant, it's absurd.

I'm glad this OP is here.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:49 PM

15. I am more worried about women leaving if we keep holding open doors for them

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:00 PM

32. !!

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #15)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:16 AM

58. I guess Catholics are reproducing without women. lol.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:02 PM

19. If you disagree with the Church why not just leave?

I did.

It's not like you have to stop being Christian either. I didn't.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 10:19 AM

37. That works well for some. It is a real option for many

There is also a long proud tradition in of Americans who became expats because they no longer felt they could remain a part of a nation and society with the faults that this nation had/has. I honor that choice by those who make it if that is right for them. And while emmigration to some nations is difficult, there are many options and those hurdles have not stopped many people of conscience from abandoning life inside the United States of America for principled reasons. But I will never tell anyone who acknowledges faults in the United States of America to "love it or leave it", and I will not say that to a liberal Catholic either.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #37)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 10:26 AM

38. Leaving the Catholic Church is far easier than emigrating

I left it before I was even in high school. And doing so was far easier than getting into college. It didn't require any effort at all. I just told my mom I would not associate with the church anymore, wouldn't participate and if she took me to Mass I wouldn't take communion. My mom was fine, especially since she then started taking us to the Lutheran church nearby more often.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #38)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 10:50 AM

40. I agree with you on that for most

For one thing, it is an analogy, and analogies are never perfect because different situations are never totally analogous. I agree that for most people leaving their homeland may be harder than leaving their religion - for logistical reasons if for no others. But that doesn't drain all meaning from the analogy. I think is still conveys an element of truth, even if the scale of the comparison differs. And while I agree with you regarding most people, I do not think that holds true for all. We humans differ among ourselves on how intrinsic and central our religion (if we have one) is to our personal identity and understanding of the world. For many leaving one's religion can be a deep and profound uprooting - more so than moving from one location to another physically. The reasons for that vary from one person to another, and like you point to in your own life, for some it is no big deal. My basic point is I am extremely reluctant to tell anyone else that their choice in life is confined to "love it or leave it".

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #19)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:23 AM

62. Christianity is full of horrific ideas too.


Slavery, child murder, animal sacrifice. All horrendous, immoral bullshit.

Are you saying it's possible to affiliate with a group with a huge history of bad ideas and ongoing corruption without being a part of that yourself?

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #62)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:39 PM

77. Hmm...

America has been full of slavery, child murder, animal sacrifice and all kinds of horrendous stuff.

You haven't left America.

Is it possible to affiliate with a group with a large history of bad ideas and ongoing corruption without being a part of that yourself?

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Response to onpatrol98 (Reply #77)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:52 PM

86. My point exactly. Which I guess you missed?


The Christian told the Catholics they should quit because the Church holds bad beliefs. I questioned why the Christian didn't quit that group as well.

I take it you read too quickly and missed that.





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Response to DirkGently (Reply #86)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:02 PM

101. Yep

Yep. I was too quick on the draw. My bad. This place gets a little weird sometimes. I've no doubt I add to that factor daily.

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Response to onpatrol98 (Reply #101)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 08:26 PM

108. Happens to me too.

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #19)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:53 PM

106. Speaking for myself...

as a Catholic Christian and a professed Secular Franciscan, I don't leave because the Church is MY home. Dysfunctional family though it may be, it's the faith and the faithful I was brought up in and grew to love, LONG before I knew what politics were.

And on the basis of politics, I will not be run out of MY home.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:06 PM

20. As many before me have posted

DU is not representative of anything but DU ... there is no lack of welcome for catholics within the Democratic party.

Think Joe Biden, John Kerry ... in many ways the Kennedy's were Democratic Party "royalty" for a generation.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:48 PM

27. If many Catholics truly believed the Church doctrine regarding a woman's right to choose, or gay

Marriage, they would all be republicans, and that simply isn't the case, nor is the fact that the Democratic Party, is not an exclusionary party

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:49 PM

28. In the middle of the last century, the Democratic party took a stand.

It cost them quite a bit - so much, in fact, that there's still a large portion of the country they rarely win any elections in.

But it was a stand worth taking.

When Catholics threaten damage to the Democratic Party if they get upset enough to leave (from what exactly, I'm not sure - posts on an anonymous Internet message board?), it reminds me of how abusers talk. "Don't make me hit you again!"

I'm an atheist, and despite what Democrats have said about atheists and/or atheism, both in real life AND on DU, I'm not abandoning the party. My values and ideals are stronger than that. Apparently they aren't for Catholics.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #28)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:05 AM

54. Agree, good post, trotsky!

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:58 PM

31. Hear hear

Excellent post.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 10:28 AM

39. A clarification to this OP Subject line

I wanted to write "if Catholics stopped feeling welcome in..." rather than "being welcome in" but that used more letters than the subject window allowed so I crimped. And I was referring to the electoral balence of power between the Democratic and Republican parties. From where things stand now, just a 5% shift of Catholic voter identification from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party would swing a number of key national and state elections to Republicans. That would, among other things, contribute to significant setbacks for the GLBT cause and for women's reproductive rights.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 12:16 PM

42. Sorry, not willing to compromise on pro-choice

pro-gay-rights, anti-pedophilia.

Plus I'm dead set against catholics being able to force their religion on others via this newfound objection to health insurance paying for birth control.

If you want to claim that means I'm against catholic people, you're welcome to that erroneous position. But I'm also not going to shut up about what the church has been doing.

If you don't like the positions your religion is taking, it's up to you to reform your religion.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #42)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 12:32 PM

43. It's not my religion, but that doesn't matter

I would never presume you are against Catholic people unless you said something that directly indicated that you were. Being adamently against policies of the Catholic Church, including elements of dogma, would not, for me anyway, by itself make me think you were antii-Catholics. I will say this though. The Catholic Church is not pedophelic though there clearly have been and most likely still are pedophiles within the Church. On top of that you will get no argument from me that major elements of the Church leadership, reaching up to the papacy, were complicit in enabling pedophiles to continue to victimize children.

Still I make that distinction because it was never the teaching of that Church to condone pedophilia as we now understand it anyway (lots of people used to marry as young teens in days of old - both of my grandmothers did in fact). Those leaders of the Church who enabled pedophiles or even were pedophiles themselves can only be viewed harshly, at the mildest end of the spectrum ,depending on their level of complicity. They subverted both the teachings and the responsibility of the Church to minister to its members and protect them from predators. Those elements must be uprooted from participation and influence within the Catholic Church, but it should be noted that ultimately they will only be uprooted by Catholics of good faith and morals who remain within the Church to confront them

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #43)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 12:39 PM

44. The problem is the "Catholic people" have failed to do so.

It's their church. Yet they've done little to nothing to pressure the church to reform.

You, and they, keep trying to split hairs by separating Catholics from their church. It's their church. It's their responsibility to demand reform. Not just keep babbling, "Oh, yeah, we just ignore those parts. We're good people. But we couldn't possibly confront our church over those parts".

While the Catholic people bear less responsibility than the church hierarchy, the Catholic people have also refused to pressure that hierarchy into entering the 19th century. As a result, they should still bear some of the blame for the church's problems.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #44)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 12:58 PM

45. The American people didn't stop George W. bush from invading Iraq or being re-installed after he did

And we have more tools at our disposal for changing our governments policies and practices relatively quickly than do members of most large organized religions, let alone the Catholic Church wit a couple of centuries worth of inertia behind it. None of can usually say with any real knowledge what an individual Catholic has or has not done to press their disagreement with anything that goes on in their own parish or the whole Catholic Church. At the very least I think it wrong to presume that many Catholics who remain in the Church do not actively work toward social justice both inside and outside of their Church in ways that they feel able to. It could also be said that everyone who voted against George W. Bush could have done more to stop him if they were not willing to committ acts of civil disobedience against his war also, for example.

Again, I am not Catholic and I have trouble with all organized religions. But it is central to almost all religions that prayer of some sort can change the course of history, on both the personal and global scale. I myself chose to be a political activist active on the material plane, so to speak, but when one discusses the faithful - and that includeds the majoirity of human beings on this planet, work on a spiritual plane is thought meaningful also. There are millions of Catholics who pray for changes in the Catholic Church along lines you would likely favor. I'm not saying that is all they do, but they attempt to appeal to God itself that justice may prevail on this earth, over the heads of Church leaders if need be. Personally I have no problem with anyone urging practicing Catholics to fight hard against injustice within the Church itself - I draw the line on presuming individual catholics are complicit with injustice if they do not leave that Church.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #45)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 10:02 AM

50. The American people tried

The fact that the media did not cover the anti-war protests doesn't mean such protests didn't happen. In addition, W barely won re-election. A "popular war president" should have crushed Kerry, not won by single digits.

But the big difference is people tried to change course.

The solution for Catholics seems to be to just ignore the parts they don't like without trying to change anything.

You should be able to see the difference between those two.

At the very least I think it wrong to presume that many Catholics who remain in the Church do not actively work toward social justice both inside and outside of their Church in ways that they feel able to.

So we should just assume they're doing something really, really, really quiet but also super-effective?

Bullshit.

There are millions of Catholics who pray for changes in the Catholic Church along lines you would likely favor. I'm not saying that is all they do,

Actually, you are. You're also saying they keep such prayers secret so nobody else will ever find out they actually give a damn about the church's problems.

I draw the line on presuming individual catholics are complicit with injustice if they do not leave that Church.

Phew! Good thing you destroyed that very dangerous strawman!

You'll note I never required them to leave the church. I required them to try to pressure the church. That pressure does not have to succeed.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #50)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:38 AM

67. First an observation

You responded to an OP I posted which is fine, great, glad you did etc. But because your reply was the context of this thread not everything I said in my reply was directed at your words only. You say I raised a strawman argument about people wanting people to leave the Church because of things the Church has done or proclaims as dogma (and I use the term "want" instead of requir intentionally) - that is not a strawman in my opinion. Such sentiments have been posted muliple times on DU this week, along the lines of if you oppose what the Church is doing you should not paticipate in an organization that violates the values you profess to have. By all means not all opponents of the Catholic Church on DU have gone there, but some had. Some have given the opinion that not leaving the Church makes one complicit with the sins of the Church. I never suggested that you personally wanted Catholics to leave the Church - I was stating where I drew the line, not saying that you had crossed it. If I was unclear about that I apologize for leaving that impression.

"doing something really really quiet..." Huh? Haven't you been reading this board at all? Plenty of Catholics here have openly spoken out in defiance of current Church teachings in several areas, and expressed outrage over the enabling of pedophile priests etc. Not just this week, but regularly. This is just one BB, but it is a large one and liberal Ctholics write letters to the editors of newpapers, take part in Yahoo forums etc also. I focus on DU because that is where we are. Many Catholic politicians openly go against the Catholic Church in defending a woman's right to choose. John Kerry ran for President and did so. Andrew Cuomo fought to get Gay marriage legalized in New York State against the will of the Catholic bishops, and those are just two quick examples off the tip of my tongue.

When the last two Popes came to America they met with Catholic groups that were organized to fight for the victims of pedophila by priests, including many abuse survivors. They organized and lobbied the Church internally to get that face time with the Pope. You indirectly ridicule praor, but for believers prayor is a powerful force, that is one reason why we always see prayor vigils spring up when ever there is a mass shooting. We see people noting that they are praying for DU members who are ill all of the time on this very liberal forum.

If the media doesn't cover acts of protest against an American war by American citizens you certainly aren't likely to hear about what is happening at the parish level in the Catholic Church. It's been a long time since I had contact with the gay Catholics who formed Dignity to oppose Church teachings on homosexuality - but I very much doubt they have given up and gone away.

What percentage of Democrats do you figure did anything on a public enough level that anyone other than their close friends and family would know that they opposed the Iraq war beyond voting against George W. Bush? What percentage of Democratic voters wrote letters to the editor or marched in the streets? What percentage risked jail through civil disobediance to stop the War Machine? Yes many did one or more of those things but the vast majority did not. Does that mean they didn't try to stop the war? Do you hold them in low esteem as well?

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #67)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:53 PM

97. I can no more defend the position of others

than the "we just ignore that" group can defend their church.

I really don't care that others are making extreme demands.

Remember - those Theses were only nailed to one door in Germany. They were not intended to change the world, but to voice objections. They ended up changing the Christian world a great deal.

i'm saying drop a note in the collection plate. Or make a minor fuss when you talk to your priest. I'm not requiring a large-scale organized protest outside the Vatican.

I am not requiring such Catholics to defend their hierarchy, and as such I see no reason I should defend the "you must abandon your church" crowd.

Plenty of Catholics here have openly spoken out in defiance of current Church teachings in several areas, and expressed outrage over the enabling of pedophile priests etc.

They've spoken to exactly the people that don't matter. Speaking out to DU will not reform the church. In fact, the church will never hear of it.

When the last two Popes came to America they met with Catholic groups that were organized to fight for the victims of pedophila by priests, including many abuse survivors. They organized and lobbied the Church internally to get that face time with the Pope.


And they aren't who I am talking about.

You indirectly ridicule praor, but for believers prayor is a powerful force, that is one reason why we always see prayor vigils spring up when ever there is a mass shooting.

The vigils are a public display. It doesn't matter if they're praying or not. The point is the display. Private prayer will do nothing to reform the church.

It's been a long time since I had contact with the gay Catholics who formed Dignity to oppose Church teachings on homosexuality - but I very much doubt they have given up and gone away.

Hey look, it's another example of those who have already done what I was talking about.

Again, the protest does not have to be successful nor loud. It just has to be directed at the right people.

What percentage of Democrats do you figure did anything on a public enough level that anyone other than their close friends and family would know that they opposed the Iraq war beyond voting against George W. Bush?


Again, the protest does not have to be successful nor loud. It just has to be directed at the right people.

What percentage of Democratic voters wrote letters to the editor or marched in the streets?

Again, the protest does not have to be successful nor loud. It just has to be directed at the right people. Editors are not the right people. Random passers-by on the streets are not the right people. People asking for donations are the right people.

What percentage risked jail through civil disobediance to stop the War Machine?

How many more times would you like me to repeat myself? Or do you want to continue assaulting your strawman?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #97)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:00 PM

100. OK I'm clearer on what you want. I have no problem with you advocationg for Catholics to...

engage in that activity. Peace. (and yes I am retiring from this thread but we had a long discussion and it feels right to end with closure).

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #45)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:56 PM

87. Tom, yours in the last comment I can read here

I have never seen such prejudice here at DU. We are Democrats, we have a big tent, but the feeling here lately is there is a "unwelcome" mat out. Although I have a low post count, I've been here for a few years. Always felt I was among my fellow Dems - Liberals. The sane people. Now it feels like there is a litmus test. Sad, very sad.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #44)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:21 AM

60. You condemn Muslims, Mormons, Jews, Protestants, & Democrats equally, right?


We all belong to corrupt organizations. When you're talking about a religion, which is much a matter of identity, family, and tradition, you have less ground to stand on than you do with, say, a political party that hasn't stopped drone strikes.

A lot of people need to take the log out of their eyes before pointing out the speck in someone else's.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #60)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:41 PM

94. The difference is what you do about that corruption

Quietly putting your tithe in the collection plate and saying "we just ignore that" isn't ok. Putting a note in the collection plate about giving your tithe to "nuns on the bus" instead is. Even if it doesn't end up changing the policy.

One's protest doesn't have to be successful. But one must protest, even unsuccessfully, instead of "just ignoring that".

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #94)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 08:29 PM

109. Except you have no idea who tithes or protests, do you?


You sound a lot like the wingers who demand American muslims fill the streets decrying terrorism.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #42)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 10:30 AM

52. Did you vote for Obama in 2008?

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #52)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:39 PM

93. Relevance? (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #93)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:43 PM

95. You're obviously willing to compromise a little bit on "pro-gay rights."

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #95)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:55 PM

98. No, I explicitly told the people calling for donations that they wouldn't get any.

Due to this issue. I told them where their money was going instead.

Again, the protest does not have to be loud, nor effective. You just have to direct it to the people that matter.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 10:48 AM

53. May I bring up an important point that I personally

have not seen on DU. No one is more outraged and concerned about the pedophilia within the Catholic church than the parents of those children who have been victims of this horrendous evil, children who are most likely Catholic as are their parents.

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Response to corneliamcgillicutty (Reply #53)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:22 AM

61. How do you know this?

Is there some statistic to back up your statement or is this just a guess?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #61)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:25 AM

63. Really? We should assume Catholic parents want their children raped?


There's a lot of fallacies flying around in this little spate of Cathlo-bashing, but yours may take the cake.

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #63)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:29 AM

64. Huh?

I simply asked if there was data to back up a claim. I said nothing about Catholic parents wanting their children raped.



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Response to progressoid (Reply #64)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:33 AM

66. Oh please. You demand proof Catholics whose children were the victims


of the Church's child sex abuse are the most outraged? That's coy at best, don't you think?

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #66)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:57 AM

71. No,

that's not what I'm "demanding".

I think there is some mis-communication. I should have been more specific. I don't doubt that the victims are the most outraged. That seems obvious.

But I apparently misunderstood corneliamcgillicutty's post to mean that they remained Catholics after such abuses. I was wondering if there were any statistics to back up such a statement.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #61)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:32 AM

65. You can't be serious! How about

using an increasingly difficult to find power of discernment called "common sense".

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Response to corneliamcgillicutty (Reply #65)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:40 AM

68. Maybe I'm just not understanding your post...

"No one is more outraged and concerned about the pedophilia within the Catholic church than the parents of those children who have been victims of this horrendous evil, children who are most likely Catholic as are their parents."

Seriously, I'm not trying to be confrontational - just looking for clarification. Are you saying that the children and their parents are still Catholics after such abuses? If so, how do you know this?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #68)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:49 AM

69. Catholic victims who remained inside the Church, and their families

sought and received audiances with the Pope in America over the issue of child sex abuse by priests and Church coverups of that behavior. Do some google searches if you are interested.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #69)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:56 AM

70. Not what I'm asking.

Do the Catholic victims of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church remain members of the Catholic Church? Are there statistics for that?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #70)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:03 PM

73. Some have, some haven't

All I have tyuned into are some accounts from those who fall into both categories. I don't know of any statistical studies but I haven't looked. I suspect the division is not overwhelmingly lopsided in either direction, butI admit I do not know. But as a rule of thumg, victims of abuse by any institution - even one where such abuse is way outside the norm, tend to pull away from that institution in larger numbers than those who never were victims. That gets down to the level of henceforth avoiding hospitals where some error occurred during treatment - even if that mistake is no less likely to happen at other hospitals etc.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #68)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:54 PM

79. The point I am trying to make, obviously unsuccessfully,

is that it is most likely Catholic children who attend Catholiic school and/or partake in sports, religious activities, etc. sponsored by the Catholic school/church with which they are affiliated who would be the most likely victims of pedophile priests due to their alliance with/proximity to the pedophile(s).

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:16 AM

59. Yes. Catholics are the same or more liberal than most on many issues.


http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/god-and-country/2009/03/30/gallup-poll-catholics-the-same-or-more-liberal-than-others-on-moral-issues

Gallup parceled out committed Catholics and found, surprisingly, that "a slim majority seem to be at odds with the church's positions on premarital sex, embryonic stem-cell research, divorce, and the death penalty."


The Catholic bashing is a lot of hypocritical bullshit for the most part.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:03 PM

72. Good thing that's not happening.

One shouldn't confuse a small subset of DU with DU itself, much less try to extrapolate into some party-wide schism.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #72)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:10 PM

74. I actually agree with you

And I like everyone else here am only engaging in a discussion, it's not like I'm trying to lobby the Democratic National Committee to allocate funds for a media campaign against Catholic bashing or whatever. But there is always some wisdom about speaking up when you see something that bothers you where you are at, and I spend time here at DU. There is a reason why "to nip something in the bud" is a common expression widely used - there is sound logic to it

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #74)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:59 PM

80. Yes. I think of rank-and-file Catholics...

...the way I do rank-and-file Republicans. They are not my enemies; they are my fellow victims, and they are uniquely placed to make a difference...if I manage not to piss 'em off too bad.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #80)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:13 PM

92. I can respect that stance, well stated. And now I think I will retire from this thread...

Just speaking for myself I think this DU debate is reaching the point of diminishing returns. Far as I can see, everyone has pretty much made their points whatever they are. Rehashing and rehashing it much more only becomes a general clusterfxck more fhan anything else

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Reply #74)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:36 PM

83. And yet it does not bother you when the Pope says gay folks are the work of the devil?

I agree, there is wisdom in speaking up when something bothers you. But you seem to be telling others to shut up and let the Pope slam us as Satanic out of respect for his followers, who don't believe a word he says, but get offended if he is not honored openly.
Francis is a homophobic bigot. Why don't you want to nip THAT in the bud? In your nation, and mine, most States allow for open discrimination against gay people, none toward any religious group. Where are your posts about that?
Someone said the Pope is a bigot, and you are very upset. Pope says gays are satan's work, you are understanding of him, calling for more kindness toward him.
Church paid for Prop 8. Am I allowed to oppose that if the Church supports it?

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #83)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 02:50 PM

88. I would appreciate it if you more carefully read what I have posted

I've posted a lot about this Catholic related stuff over the last few days. Show me one post where I have in any way been upset about anyone at DU being upset with the Pope. There isn't one. And there won't be one either It is possible I might feel moved at some point in the future to refute an outright lie if told about him or anyone else without a factual basis, but that's about it. My comments have never objected to people being angry with policies of the Church or its leaders. I'll leave it at that because I've already made several attempts on this thread and others to explain what I do and don't object to - I honestly don't think I am capable of saying it any clearer.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:14 PM

75. It's weird that states with higher percentages of catholics also tend to be solid blue

during election season.

If Catholics explicitly weren't welcome in the Democratic party, you might have a tough time winning RI (63%), Penn (53%), MA (44%), NJ (39%), CA (37%), and NY (36%).

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 12:20 PM

76. all religions are equally vile, Catholicism just happens to be in the news because the new pope...

all deity based religions promote ignorance, bigotry and hatred.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:39 PM

85. Why are religious people so incredibly sensitive?

For god's sake, grow a thicker skin. I am sick to death of believers being so knee-jerk sensitive that they get their knickers in a twist when their religion is criticized. If telling them that their church enables and protects pedophiles makes them vote for a repuke, then I say don't let the door hit you where evolution split you.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #85)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:01 PM

89. You make Baby Jesus cry.



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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #85)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:04 PM

90. The vast majority of lay Catholics know and agree that far too often

the Church has enabled and protected pedophiles (I only say "far too often" as a conditioner because not every Bishop at the dioscese level has been guilty of that - but I agree that the protection of pedophiles has gone on up to and including the highest levels of the Vatican). So the vast majority of liberal Catholics at least - and there are millions of them - already know it and agree with you. There is nothing upsetting about hearing or seeing that charge made. What is upsetting to all of us is the pedophilia, and the enabling and protection of it. That is not controversial with Catholics on DU. I haven't seen Catholics here, or those, like me, who while not Catholics have been drawn into this discussion, object to the type of charges you are making here unless you were to claim that all priests and nuns and deacons etc. were OK with it.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #85)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 09:11 PM

110. That's ludicrous straw argument. People have gone way past that.


The cutesy, nasty, bigotry-flirting little conceit is that anyone, anywhere, who identifies as Catholic is supporting whatever bad the Catholic church has ever done or any dogma it lays down. Despite the fact we know religion is culture and identity much more than a group you "join." Despite the fact that polls that show American Catholics are more supportive of gay rights than the rest of the American public, including atheists, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims.

Grab you own knickers and pearls and hankies, why don't you, for getting so "sick to death" of people not taking intellectually dishonest personal insults lying down.



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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:46 PM

96. Catholics

will always be welcome in the Democratic Party. Just because some people are vocalizing dislike for the organization doesn't mean that Catholics aren't welcome.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 03:57 PM

99. I haven't seen anyone saying Catholics are not welcome

I do see quite alot of people speaking out against the corrupt and criminal leadership of the Catholic church.

There is a big difference.

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #99)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:08 PM

102. I agree with your distinction and it is big. I haven't seen anyone say Cataholics are unwelcome

as Democrats. I have seen some comments that Catholics should leave the Church or at least not donate any money to any of its aspects if they have progressive opinions at odds with Church leaders- and rarer comments that imply that anyone who remains a practicing Catholic has to share in complicity for the wrongs of the Church - and that can be alienating - we have already seen that here. Peace

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:13 PM

103. ENOUGH with the persecution complex...

Yes, there will always be Catholics in the Democratic Party. And there will always be DUers who will post noise against the Church hierarchy and equate their actions to those of us in the pews. We have a new Pope. Upswing in the nasty posts. Disappointing, of course. Surprising? Not in the least.

WE know it's not true. We'll still vote our consciences as progressives, yes? Get over it already.

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Response to Tom Rinaldo (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:14 PM

104. I wish those criticising the Catholic church would be more civil about it.

Bashing someone for being a member of a religion is not cool.

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