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Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:56 AM

This is hard...

It sucks that I have to leave DU. I don't want to leave DU. I really don't. But there is no other choice. It's been made fairly clear here that if you're Catholic, you're a supporter of pedophilia and basically, you're not welcomed here. Not that I would ever feel welcomed in a place that considers me a pedophilia enabler, so, even if they're not openly saying, "go!", the attitude toward Catholics is pretty blatant in its implication.

I'm gone. You've won. I will not continue posting on a message board that looks at me with such contempt. Like I said, I don't want to leave DU. I've been a member here, in a couple incarnations, since it opened in 2001. I've met some great people - some I hope to keep in contact with online (and I'm thankful for places like Facebook which will allow me to do so). But sometimes it becomes clear when it's time to move on and this is that time.

To be fair, there are some amazing people here and I respect a whole helluva lot of 'em, even if we've butted heads in the past. But I can't be myself knowing so many of you look at me as some monster because of my faith. That's not fair to me. It just isn't. It's also not worth the hurt I receive reading each thread that not only bashes my religion, which I can tolerate, but also bashes its members - those include the living and the dead ... John, Bobby and Ted Kennedy, our vice-president Joe Biden, our Secretary of State John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi, Tip O'Neill, Al Smith, Geraldine Ferraro, Dorothy Day, Mario Cuomo, Jennifer Granholm, Martin O'Malley, Sonia Sotomayor, Marcy Kaptur, Dennis Kucinich, Dick Durbin, Daniel Patrick Moynihan and the list goes on.

These people were not, and are not, pedophilia enablers. Many have been great Americans - many are great Americans. They were instrumental in building not only this country - but our party - into what it is today. The Democratic Party only became a political force because it was the first party to openly welcome Catholics. For so long, when the Irish and the Italians, emigrated over to the U.S., they were discriminated against because of their ethnicity and their faith. It was Franklin Roosevelt who reached out to the Catholics and brought them fully into the party and they have remained a part of Democratic politics since.

You can dismiss us. You can ridicule us. But we are the Democratic Party. Sure, the O'Malleys are now the Martinezes, but the force of this faith remains one of the most important aspects of Democratic politics. You can't win without the Catholics. Just remember that when you demonize us as enablers to horrific crime.

Obama would not be president today had it not been for many ardent Catholic voters. Many of whom have remained with the Democratic Party, even though their church has vilified them at times for what they believe. Think about that for a second - many members remain liberal and progressive, even though they belong to a church that in the past has told them they're not upstanding members of that faith because of their politics. John Kerry didn't abandon the Democratic Party when there was talk of his being refused communion because of his pro-choice views. Nor did he ever compromise those views - and neither did Ted Kennedy or Joe Biden.

The backbone of the liberal movement - from the fight against poverty and the support of unions, was created by many hardworking Catholic emigrants. Mary Harris Jones, or as you may know her by, Mother Jones, and Dorothy Day were two women who devoted their lives to the labor movement. They were also Catholic.

The Church is not flawless. God knows I fight every day with my faith. But I also know that it has a hundred million, certainly more, great members. Members like my grandparents - my grandmother, who graduated from Saint Mary-of-the-Wasatch, a Catholic college here in Utah, then went on to become a social worker advocating and helping the poor and displaced and my grandfather, who fought in World War II, on the beaches of Normandy, then came home and taught in the Salt Lake City School District for 30 years. He was a beloved high school biology teacher - and a proud American who served his country and then came home and served his community. They were both devout Catholics. They were also Democrats. My grandfather voted Republican once in his life - when he voted Eisenhower the first go around. He voted Stevenson four years later. My grandma cast her first vote for Harry Truman in 1948 and voted straight Democratic until her death in 2003.

Both my parents were Catholics. Both were Democrats. Both hardworking, loving, and tough, individuals. Mom is still a Catholic and the eternal optimist. The first person she called when it was announced we had a new Pope was me and she was in tears. She's pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, and probably a bit more liberal than myself on a few issues - as are all her sisters, sans one, the one who left the Catholic Church in the 1990s.

These are the people I've grown up with. They are my rock. They always have been. They are good people, who've worked all their lives so that maybe their kids could have a bit more than they did. It wasn't always easy, or perfect, but they were my heroes. Every single one of 'em. And when you tell me they're enabling these crimes, it breaks my heart. It makes me cry. It hurts. It feels like a thousand knives to the heart because they're family - and they're Catholic. And there are millions of them in this country. They live their lives no different than you do. They support the same causes you do. They fight the same fights as you do. They are your allies.

And some of you are content with just tossing 'em aside like they don't matter - like they're the enemy. I hate to tell you, we're not your enemy. We've never been your enemy. So, don't treat us like we are. We are in the trenches with you. We are fighting with you. We are working for social justice and change and a society that truly is great. Our faith, what church we call home, does not change that. It never will.

Just remember that. Remember that we're on your side and we've always been on your side - no matter what you say and how hurtful your words are. But don't expect us to share your hatred or your rhetoric. I might be leaving DU, but I am not leaving my beliefs. I am a proud a liberal and a proud Democrat. I'm also a Catholic and I embrace my religion because it's who I am and where I come from.

I hope maybe one day I can return and the attitude here will be more accepting. But if that day doesn't come, good luck to those who really are fighting the good fight.

Maybe I'll see you around one day.

329 replies, 42288 views

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Reply This is hard... (Original post)
Drunken Irishman Mar 2013 OP
snappyturtle Mar 2013 #1
Leslie Valley Mar 2013 #2
2pooped2pop Mar 2013 #83
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #152
monmouth3 Mar 2013 #99
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #151
Avalux Mar 2013 #195
kestrel91316 Mar 2013 #234
mahina Mar 2013 #270
proud2BlibKansan Mar 2013 #272
Grateful for Hope Mar 2013 #296
Bake Mar 2013 #325
brush Mar 2013 #327
TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #3
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #4
olddots Mar 2013 #5
Union Scribe Mar 2013 #6
steve2470 Mar 2013 #13
TDale313 Mar 2013 #94
CAG Mar 2013 #138
hfojvt Mar 2013 #7
arely staircase Mar 2013 #220
hfojvt Mar 2013 #225
arely staircase Mar 2013 #229
meadowlark5 Mar 2013 #251
DevonRex Mar 2013 #8
Journeyman Mar 2013 #9
Fumesucker Mar 2013 #10
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #14
Fumesucker Mar 2013 #17
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #19
socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #108
OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #130
LuvNewcastle Mar 2013 #78
Sherman A1 Mar 2013 #154
LanternWaste Mar 2013 #283
Fumesucker Mar 2013 #286
Prism Mar 2013 #11
freshwest Mar 2013 #211
pnwmom Mar 2013 #295
Sadiedog Mar 2013 #12
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #15
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #16
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #29
Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #41
socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #111
kwassa Mar 2013 #119
socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #122
jsr Mar 2013 #143
hunter Mar 2013 #136
socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #142
Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #203
Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #183
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #188
Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #192
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #287
Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #299
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #309
Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #310
sir pball Mar 2013 #126
mulsh Mar 2013 #124
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #179
knitter4democracy Mar 2013 #139
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #159
knitter4democracy Mar 2013 #162
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #180
knitter4democracy Mar 2013 #210
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #288
knitter4democracy Mar 2013 #293
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #298
LanternWaste Mar 2013 #284
skepticscott Apr 2013 #328
olddots Mar 2013 #20
BainsBane Mar 2013 #21
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #32
Summer Hathaway Mar 2013 #56
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #165
patrice Mar 2013 #60
nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #65
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #155
BainsBane Mar 2013 #157
BainsBane Mar 2013 #314
idwiyo Mar 2013 #316
BainsBane Mar 2013 #317
idwiyo Mar 2013 #318
BainsBane Mar 2013 #319
idwiyo Mar 2013 #324
BainsBane Mar 2013 #320
idwiyo Mar 2013 #323
Squinch Mar 2013 #76
Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #49
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #167
Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #185
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #193
Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #71
enlightenment Mar 2013 #112
Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #172
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #175
Warren Stupidity Mar 2013 #259
sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #100
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #178
sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #271
Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #169
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #181
Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #236
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #246
Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #262
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #290
idwiyo Mar 2013 #265
Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #18
Maraya1969 Mar 2013 #22
jsr Mar 2013 #23
LittleBlue Mar 2013 #24
AsahinaKimi Mar 2013 #128
struggle4progress Mar 2013 #25
monmouth3 Mar 2013 #102
jsr Mar 2013 #114
Bobbie Jo Mar 2013 #121
great white snark Mar 2013 #131
Bobbie Jo Mar 2013 #133
DevonRex Mar 2013 #191
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #156
freshwest Mar 2013 #212
Hekate Mar 2013 #313
okieinpain Mar 2013 #26
Rhiannon12866 Mar 2013 #27
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #31
Rhiannon12866 Mar 2013 #50
greatauntoftriplets Mar 2013 #103
Rhiannon12866 Mar 2013 #107
greatauntoftriplets Mar 2013 #113
bluesbassman Mar 2013 #28
world wide wally Mar 2013 #30
BainsBane Mar 2013 #33
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #158
BainsBane Mar 2013 #197
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #198
BainsBane Mar 2013 #204
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #205
freshwest Mar 2013 #214
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #216
freshwest Mar 2013 #218
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #219
defacto7 Mar 2013 #34
Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #35
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #37
Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #42
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #44
Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #47
Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #118
BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #275
The Straight Story Mar 2013 #77
Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #82
The Straight Story Mar 2013 #84
Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #96
LineReply .
patrice Mar 2013 #36
KT2000 Mar 2013 #38
Notafraidtoo Mar 2013 #39
King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #40
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #43
chervilant Mar 2013 #116
CAG Mar 2013 #150
freshwest Mar 2013 #227
King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #261
LeftInTX Mar 2013 #45
JI7 Mar 2013 #46
Rider3 Mar 2013 #48
LeftishBrit Mar 2013 #51
Scootaloo Mar 2013 #52
TexasTowelie Mar 2013 #53
diane in sf Mar 2013 #54
cali Mar 2013 #55
Cha Mar 2013 #57
daybranch Mar 2013 #58
freshwest Mar 2013 #230
Cali_Democrat Mar 2013 #59
nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #61
patrice Mar 2013 #62
freshwest Mar 2013 #217
patrice Mar 2013 #222
freshwest Mar 2013 #223
patrice Mar 2013 #224
ReRe Mar 2013 #63
steve2470 Mar 2013 #64
glowing Mar 2013 #66
Bonobo Mar 2013 #67
graham4anything Mar 2013 #68
freshwest Mar 2013 #228
RFKHumphreyObama Mar 2013 #69
Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #70
HiPointDem Mar 2013 #72
newfie11 Mar 2013 #73
JNelson6563 Mar 2013 #74
Th1onein Mar 2013 #75
bigtree Mar 2013 #79
Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #80
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #161
Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #163
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #164
Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #166
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #168
kwassa Mar 2013 #173
Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #182
DevonRex Mar 2013 #322
kdmorris Mar 2013 #81
2pooped2pop Mar 2013 #85
JanMichael Mar 2013 #86
Ms. Toad Mar 2013 #88
JanMichael Mar 2013 #89
Ms. Toad Mar 2013 #97
MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #87
trocar Mar 2013 #90
xfundy Mar 2013 #91
msanthrope Mar 2013 #92
LAGC Mar 2013 #93
Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #125
Puglover Mar 2013 #149
MellowDem Mar 2013 #201
spanone Mar 2013 #95
undeterred Mar 2013 #98
Norbert Mar 2013 #101
BainsBane Mar 2013 #207
Dragonfli Mar 2013 #104
MadrasT Mar 2013 #105
greatauntoftriplets Mar 2013 #106
Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #109
a kennedy Mar 2013 #110
99Forever Mar 2013 #115
Paladin Mar 2013 #117
kwassa Mar 2013 #120
Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #123
Bluzmann57 Mar 2013 #127
lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #129
mulsh Mar 2013 #132
WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #134
hlthe2b Mar 2013 #206
stevenleser Mar 2013 #243
Union Scribe Mar 2013 #264
JanMichael Mar 2013 #267
Hekate Mar 2013 #315
rustydog Mar 2013 #135
Denzil_DC Mar 2013 #137
Apophis Mar 2013 #140
Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #177
MellowDem Mar 2013 #202
Apophis Mar 2013 #209
Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #237
MellowDem Mar 2013 #308
knitter4democracy Mar 2013 #141
jsr Mar 2013 #144
knitter4democracy Mar 2013 #145
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #146
Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #186
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #213
bettyellen Mar 2013 #196
knitter4democracy Mar 2013 #300
datasuspect Mar 2013 #147
siligut Mar 2013 #279
slackmaster Mar 2013 #148
BeyondGeography Mar 2013 #153
cbayer Mar 2013 #160
Rex Mar 2013 #170
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #171
Demonaut Mar 2013 #174
JVS Mar 2013 #176
Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #184
bettyellen Mar 2013 #187
Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #189
bettyellen Mar 2013 #190
Humanist_Activist Mar 2013 #194
DevonRex Mar 2013 #199
Avalux Mar 2013 #200
blogslut Mar 2013 #208
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #215
libodem Mar 2013 #221
shenmue Mar 2013 #226
richmwill Mar 2013 #231
jsr Mar 2013 #233
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #240
AnotherDreamWeaver Mar 2013 #232
timdog44 Mar 2013 #235
Cleita Mar 2013 #238
life long demo Mar 2013 #239
klook Mar 2013 #241
stevenleser Mar 2013 #242
seabeyond Mar 2013 #244
Festivito Mar 2013 #245
harris8 Mar 2013 #247
liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #249
OffWithTheirHeads Mar 2013 #258
Samantha Mar 2013 #248
Bobbie Jo Mar 2013 #250
michigandem58 Mar 2013 #252
Evoman Mar 2013 #253
limpyhobbler Mar 2013 #254
meadowlark5 Mar 2013 #255
mike_c Mar 2013 #256
Union Scribe Mar 2013 #263
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #277
Special Prosciuto Mar 2013 #257
mahina Mar 2013 #260
BlueCollar Mar 2013 #266
Rowdyboy Mar 2013 #268
Iggo Mar 2013 #269
AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #273
Wait Wut Mar 2013 #274
Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #276
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #278
ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #291
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #292
Catherina Mar 2013 #280
amuse bouche Mar 2013 #281
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #301
amuse bouche Mar 2013 #302
hrmjustin Mar 2013 #303
LanternWaste Mar 2013 #282
demwing Mar 2013 #285
ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #289
WillyT Mar 2013 #294
David Zephyr Mar 2013 #307
BlueCheese Mar 2013 #297
Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #304
duffyduff Mar 2013 #305
skepticscott Apr 2013 #329
David Zephyr Mar 2013 #306
merh Mar 2013 #311
Hekate Mar 2013 #312
Rosa Luxemburg Mar 2013 #321
Rider3 Mar 2013 #326

Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:01 AM

1. Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022520989

I couldn't have said it better.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:02 AM

2. But will anyone hold the door for you on the way out?

 

n/t

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:20 AM

83. lol

ok, with the abundance of open door posts lately, this one is the best.

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Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #83)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:41 PM

152. I don't see it as the best but as very sad.

Drunken Irishman is a beloved member her that has been driven out by mean spirited people. NOT FUNNY AT ALL!

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:33 AM

99. Unrec...He's a valued DUer and I'm sad to see him go. When did you get here?

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:37 PM

151. SHAME ON YOU!

Drunken Irishman is a valued member of this community and you should keep you snark to yourself please.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:45 PM

195. Do you think you're funny?

You're new around here I see. Are you a smart ass in real life too? Get a clue.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:19 PM

234. You are REALLY a horrible person. We don't need your snark at

a valued long-term DUer here, newbie.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 11:00 AM

270. rude

Person.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 11:30 AM

272. How sad that you would find humor in this

A valued DUer who has been here much longer than most of us, especially you, is being pushed away. And you find that funny.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 07:39 PM

296. This was a very nasty thing to say

There is no way you could know who this member is, let alone what his value is to DU. I hope you think about what you posted.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 03:19 PM

325. Here's a thought. Drunken Irishman, STAY, and YOU leave.

Newbie.

Bake

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Response to Leslie Valley (Reply #2)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 04:43 PM

327. WTF do you mean?

I didn't open any of the religious themed posts in the last couple of weeks because I just wasn't interested. Now that I see what's been going on I'm appalled and disgusted that there is this huge back and forth between Catholic bashers and Catholics. We all should be better than that.

Anyone's religion or non-religion is nobody's business but their own. And you religion bashers, for SHAME!
Blame the ones responsible for the abuses, not the Catholic faithful.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:05 AM

3. I've learned to ignore it, mostly. There are so many Catholic Democrats, a few

people on DU with a permanent axe to grind about the Church don't matter much in the grand scheme.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:06 AM

4. Just please know that not everybody are bigots

Not everybody claims that all Catholics are bad or that the entire religion of Catholicism is bad, and I hope you do return. I have left DU before too. I am a liberal who is not afraid to criticize democrats when they don't govern well and yes, gasp, I have even criticized Obama. but I have never accused everyone who supports democrats or Obama as complicit in bombing small children or killing sick people for not legalizing marijuana or for not using executive order to implement single payer health care. Just because people have died does not mean democratic citizens are responsible for their deaths. And you and other Catholics are not responsible for the abuse perpetrated by authorities in the church. There are many, many, many people out there that realize there are good Catholics out there and we will go on treating Catholics with respect and love. And even though I have come across some hateful atheists on this board I know there are good atheists because my beautiful children are atheists and they are very respectful and loving. So, I will go on treating atheists with respect also. Hope to see you back here again soon.

As someone who did join the Catholic church while on my spiritual journey but later settled on Buddhism just let me say: Peace Be With You

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:07 AM

5. Please don't leave ,I'm an atheist and please don't leave .

You shouldn't care what anybody types here we get bogged down in bullshit high school debating garbage and try to be clever in cyber space . i'm gonna say it again WE have to watch this no fear of repercusions because we are safe on the net and say shit thats much meaner than we would in person .DON"T leave !

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:17 AM

6. I rec everything you say except the goodbye part.

You should stay and put the bigots on ignore; let them talk to each other forever. I haven't always agreed with you but you're a good guy and a good Democrat, and this site can't afford to lose either.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:40 AM

13. I agree with you here

Trash thread and Ignore would work wonders.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:57 AM

94. +1

So sad to see you leaving. Please reconsider.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #6)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:26 PM

138. +1

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:21 AM

7. Happy St. Patrick's Day



There is no "a place".

"I would ever feel welcomed in a place that considers me a pedophilia enabler,"

the "place" does not consider anything or believe anything. There are 47 star members who have me on ignore and 49 blocking PMs from me, and yet "the place" does not have me on ignore - only many of the members do. Some members say some things and they may even get dozens of recs for saying it, but that is not a statement from "the place". Just an opinion of some of the people who post here.

The place does not agree 100% on anything.

Except maybe that the Jets still suck. There IS widespread, nearly unanimous agreement on that.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:59 PM

220. "47 star members who have me on ignore and 49 blocking PM"

kind of an accomplishment, really.

how do i check who has me on ignore? i alerted on a post and it said it would go to admin. i assume i am on that person's jury blacklist, which is cool cuz that person is on mine.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #220)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:19 PM

225. not an accomplishment I am proud of or happy about

naturally I would love for everybody to benefit from the vast wisdom of my written words, but alas, some are not destined to read these words of wit, and some, apparently can't handle the truth.

If you click on your own profile, and then hit the tab "transparency" it will say "your transparency page is not displayed ... click here to see your transparency page." And if you click on the "here" it will tell you how many people are ignoring you. There is seemingly no way to find out WHO those people are, unless you can bribe Elad or Skinner (I think EarlG is out of the loop (as he hides from the wrath of EarlG :hide) Sometimes though, they will tell you something like "FU, I am putting you on ignore" and in that way you may find out about some of them. At least if they are true to their word.

At least it has been 230 days since my last deleted post (which may have something to do with the people ignoring me, not alerting on my posts (hmmm...))

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #225)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:28 PM

229. holy crap

i have 19 star members blocking me

and 416 days without a hidden post - but like you said it may be because everyone who would alert on me has denied themselves my bon mottes.

thanks

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #225)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:57 PM

251. This is hilarious!

I barely post and have never, ever even been in a conversation/debate on a thread where I've posted more than a comment I wanted to make and that was it. And I've got a person block/ignoring me

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:21 AM

8. I'll see you on

Facebook, dear DI. I'm not long behind you, I fear. I am so very sorry this has happened. You didn't deserve it. None of you does.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:25 AM

9. I will miss your posts. I'll miss you. . . .

Too many people with too little knowledge of history and society are only too eager to share what they don't know and too set to see another vision. I'll leave it at that.

I hope you'll reconsider.

Peace on your hand and health to all who shake it.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:29 AM

10. As a sixtysomething white male Southerner I don't feel at all welcome on DU

As an atheist I don't feel at all welcome in the deep South where I live.

Come down off that cross, we need the wood.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:40 AM

14. yes but how many people on DU have told you because you don't leave the south

you are responsible for all the atrocities that southerners commit? Are you responsible for a southerner who beats a gay person or calls a black person the n word. I grew up in Texas. I did leave. One of the reasons I will never again live in the south is because I don't want my autistic son called retard. Should I hold you responsible for southerners who call autistic people retard? No, of course not. I'm not saying the hateful talk will ever end. This is after all an internet message board. All message boards have mean, childish people who say hateful things. But we can certainly make sure those hurt by their hatred know that not all people are like that and encourage them to stay.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #14)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:49 AM

17. I've heard that sort of thing quite a few times on DU

There are constant calls here to kick the South out of the Union and anyone who isn't a Republican Fundie is told they are just out of luck.

I can't tell you how many times I've posted that map of Purple America when someone starts bashing the South and Southerners.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:53 AM

19. I have seen some of the southern bashing

it is a shame people can't distinguish between southern republicans and southern democrats. I lived in Texas. I grew up around some pretty racist, sexist, bigots. but I also grew up around some very decent, good southern people. I am sorry there are idiots who can't tell the difference.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:00 AM

108. Yeah, I've seen the bashing of southerners too........

even liberal southerners. Hell, I'm a left communist southerner and I still feel tarred by some of those posts that bash the whole population of the region. It doesn't matter though. It's a message board. Shit's going to happen and I'm not going to voluntarily leave a message board because of a few folks who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. (Is THAT a southern enough expression for you?)

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:46 AM

130. Pisses me off every time I read a South-bashing post....

...the stupid is strong in those folks, and I don't think they will ever change. In my opinion, those people are as bad or worse than the people they criticize. I expect better from DU posters and I'm often disappointed.

Am I saying there are not groups and individuals in the South who are hateful bigoted people? Absolutely not. But there are millions of Democrats and progressives who live in the South and we are not to blame for the beliefs and opinions held by the haters.





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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:03 AM

78. DU pisses off each one of us at some point.

Some of us argue their way through it. Some, like myself, avoid the site for a while. It's bound to happen on a political discussion board. Just like life as a whole, you can't let a few jerks ruin the entire experience.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:46 PM

154. +1

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #10)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 04:32 PM

283. Really, really glad you're not a blind, idiotic, vulgar, petulant caricature.

"Come down off that cross, we need the wood..."

That should be put on a Hallmark card. Seriously... no idiot would ever imply that feeling unwelcome is the same as martyrdom, and I'm glad you're not that idiot who would think of being so self-absorbed as to trivialize the hurt others go through. Really, really glad you're not a blind, idiotic, vulgar, petulant caricature.

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #283)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 04:47 PM

286. When someone has a genuine tragedy in their life I'm supportive and sensitive

A few morans saying ignorant stuff about you on an internet forum does not remotely rise to the level of tragedy, it cheapens actual tragedy to even think about making the comparison.

I haven't even joined in the Catholic bashing, you're welcome to search my posts.





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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:32 AM

11. I have never agreed with you

But you are speaking 100% truth here.

I'm an ex-Catholic, but the hatred on display the past week has given me serious pause as to the empathetic quality of some people here.

I don't know if I want to keep reading this kind of hate anymore. This past week has shown some serious ugly. For the first time, I'm questioning whether or not this is a worthwhile use of my time.

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Response to Prism (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:35 PM

211. I hear you. There are many I disagree with here, but I know hate when I read it

Too much wanting to offend and attack, to no purpose I can see. My time here is limited, although I post a lot.

This place can be refreshing, sorrowful, angry, joyful or oppressive at times. I can be polite to all and amend my speech if it is hurtful. I don't know everyone's life story or their pain, and don't want to add to whatever burden they carry.

I self-censor everything I say, no matter how neutral I word it, waiting for the inevitable attack. My stomach gets in knots at times, why continue to come and be in the midst of such hostility?

Fewer people will bother, it's not fun or even educational when it gets to that.


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Response to Prism (Reply #11)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 07:29 PM

295. +1. n/t

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:39 AM

12. Oh my, this is so sad!

As a Democrat and a Catholic myself I understand what you are saying but wish you would reconsider and stay on. I also thank you for reminding all about the many wonderful Catholics that have made and make the Party better. You write so well, and although I am fairly new here I can tell that you are a thoughtful contributor to this site.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:43 AM

15. Dear OP,

 

The Catholic Church has admitted that 4392 priests were accused of abuse, or about 4% of the priests serving in the United States during this period. That's the Church's numbers.

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops commissioned the John Jay College of Criminal Justice to conduct a comprehensive study based on surveys completed by the Roman Catholic dioceses in the United States. The product of the study, titled the John Jay Report indicated that some 11,000 allegations had been made against 4,392 priests in the USA. This number constituted approximately 4% of the priests who had served during the period covered by the survey (1950Ė2002). (1)


However, it takes a incredible leap of faith to accept that this number represents the real total. This is the number of priests that they admit had allegations made against them. How many additional cases or allegations are they aware of but are not mentioning here? How many never progressed beyond the local level? How many victims reported the abuse but were pressured or physically abused into recanting their allegations?

How many victims never reported the abuse at all? That last is something we can look at. Approximately 54% of rapes against ADULT women go unreported in the united states. In the case of CHILDREN the numbers are even worse. Approximately 90% of all sexual abuse cases against children are unreported, only one in ten incidences of abuse reach the attention of authorities -- and this includes reports coming from teachers and medical workers who generate a large portion of these complaints.

A far smaller percentage is reported by the child directly. We don't know the number, obviously, but it is lower than one in ten.

In the case of the church, many parents felt as if they HAD reported the crime when they took it to their church. The crime was reported, and in those cases in which church authorities were unable to use their religious authority and assumed morality to silence the parents and children, church leadership assured these parents that the church had it's own methods for dealing with monster priests -- a method most parents no-doubt assumed were medieval in their brutality and effectiveness. Even in cases where the abuse was so horrific that the police became involved, the church employed the same methods, and they additionally moved the priest out of the jurisdiction, ending the matter.

So how many Catholic Church officials were raping children in America?

Based upon the church's own numbers and the percentage of these crimes that go unreported, it is reasonable to conclude that one out of every TWO or THREE Church officials were directly involved in abusing children. Given this, it is almost impossible to imagine that there was a Catholic Priest or official anywhere in American who wasn't either abusing children himself, or well aware that it was going on.

It wasn't a fluke, it wasn't the rare abuser, it was NORMAL. More Priests were raping kids than having affairs with adult parishioners. That's how systemic it was.

And again, that's right here in America. Here they got into the kid rape thing and mostly left it at that. Elsewhere in the world the things these monsters were doing was WORSE. Think torture, sexual mutilation, forced castration, slavery, you name it.

That's the horrific reality.

You probably did not know these numbers. You likely took the Church at itís word when they said it was just a tiny number of rogue priests. I understand. But now you know. Thatís just one of the many many horrific crimes your church has been engaged in.

Itís up to YOU to decide what you want to do about it.


(1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_United_States

(2) http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

(3) http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1863650,00.html?xid=rss-mostpopular

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:46 AM

16. so, are you one of the ones who think if he doesn't leave the church

he is responsible for those who commit those crimes? I would just like to know that way I know if you should go on my ignore list.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:16 AM

29. The criminals who committed these crimes are responsible for them....

 

I am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and assuming he did not know. I am assuming he took the church at its word and looked no further. But now he knows. It's up to the OP to decide what he wants to do with this information.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #29)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:57 AM

41. The OP doesn't live in a vacuum

He is well aware of the sins of the church.

He is also aware that his religion is a belief held in the mind and heart, and is separate and apart from the hierarchy of 'the Church' - those who bring disgrace upon that religion through their behavior, those who enable that behavior through silence, and those who cover-up the behavior of the worst among them.

The Catholic Church, as an organization, is corrupt - and pretty much always has been. The Catholic faith, which is based upon the teachings and example of a rather extraordinary human being (divine or otherwise), is pure in its realization, and pristine in its goals.

The fact that you are incapable of discerning one from the other (the dictates of The Catholic Church v the followers of the Catholic faith) is demonstrative of your ignorance.

I am going to give you the 'benefit of the doubt', and assume that you will educate yourself as to the difference between Catholicism as a religious belief and the political agenda that has always guided the Catholic Church as what it is now and ever shall be an organization bent on political influence and the generation of financial revenue cloaked in the name of Catholicism. One clearly has nothing to do with the other.

Now that you have THAT information - information that has been available for centuries and is widely known - it's up to you what to do with that information.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #41)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:14 AM

111. Now wait a minute.......

I've not bashed a single Catholic on a single thread, BUT I do understand the frustration that some feel about this situation. Catholicism is a hierarchical religion with the economic. social and political power wielded from the top down. If you are a Catholic, you must accept this hierarchy OR YOU AREN'T A CATHOLIC! That's something that the Church itself says.

I don't hold with bashing anybody because of their religion or lack of same, but if you agree to be a Catholic, you must bear a little responsibility for the leadership of the Church because the Church says the leadership IS due obedience. I don't bash individuals because, just as you said, individual Catholics don't have to obey or even believe in some of the more outmoded dogma of the Church. But that probably makes you a BAD or lapsed Catholic in the eyes of the Church.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #111)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:12 AM

119. Actually, no. You don't get to make the rules, either.

There are many who call themselves Catholic that don't accept the hierarchy. Many if not most, at least in the US>

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Response to kwassa (Reply #119)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:19 AM

122. So are you saying the Pope or you local priest would still consider you.....

a "good" Catholic if you believed in birth control, choice, were homosexual and did NOT believe in Papal infallibility?

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #122)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:43 PM

143. I don't think they keep track of people at all

They don't have a list of who's good and bad, who's having an abortion or using birth control, who's eligible for communion and who's not. They don't even care if you contribute, since contributions are not required for attendance. Catholics in my family have little to zero interaction with the clerics, except on the big occasions - baptisms, weddings, funerals. It is a rather casual relationship. However, Catholics are very proud of their identity.



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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #111)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:09 PM

136. We're heretics in our house.

Most Catholics are. Look around at Mass, so many people with only one or two kids, and it's not because they are practicing "natural" family planning or abstaining from sex.

That's just one issue.

Catholics are also notorious for withholding funds from the collection plate slush funds and giving their "church" money directly to charitable organizations that help the community, services for the homeless, for example, .

Yes, there are places in the USA where the Church is very similar to, say, The Mormons or various Fundamentalist sects, and in those places actually seem to be competing with those other churches to be the most bad ass right wing homophobic misogynist anti-abortion authoritarians in town, but the vast majority of Catholic parishes are not like that. In most of the USA the Catholic Church is liberal.

If they kicked all your "BAD or lapsed" Catholics out there would be nobody there.

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Response to hunter (Reply #136)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:41 PM

142. Oh I recognize that fer sure........

Which is why I don't get down on any individual Catholic, especially one that posts on this forum. But if you're going to call yourself a Catholic, that's a voluntary identification and part of it is taking, and acknowledging, the good with the bad with that self identification. And also acknowledging that, per the dogma you've accepted, you are not a GOOD Catholic.

I'm a southerner and I get lumped in with Tea Party types all the time on here just because of the accident of my birth. I'm also a commie, albeit of a left or Trotskyist variety, but I still get lumped in with the Stalinists because of the ignorance of most Americans about the difference tendencies in Marxism. The first grouping is not something I'll take any responsibility for because it wasn't something I had anything to do with. The second is self identification, which means that I must take SOME responsibility for what the early Communists became under Stalin EVEN THOUGH TROTSKY AND HIS GROUPING FOUGHT STALIN'S PERVERSIONS FROM THE BEGINNING. Because we didn't succeed, we still must acknowledge the mistakes made and take some responsibility for it even if it's only acknowledging our failure to stop it. I can be lumped in with Stalinists, but I am a BAD Stalinist.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #142)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:03 PM

203. Catholicism is based on

the teachings of Christ, and following his example as a human being.

The Catholic Church is a man-made organization which has proven itself throughout history as political in nature, at times having its own military and waging war to increase its wealth and its assets - things which have nothing to do with dogma.

Identifying oneself as an adherent of the Catholic faith is not an automatic identification with 'the Church' as an organization.

Being a 'good Catholic' is a matter of one's practice of the faith - and the labels affixed by 'the Church', i.e. bad Catholic, lapsed Catholic, or even excommunicated Catholic - are of little concern to those who realize that the tenets of their religion have little to do with what a group of over-dressed, self-serving old men have to say about anything.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #111)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:27 PM

183. ...

Catholicism is not a hierarchical religion - the Catholic Church is a hierarchical organization.

The 'faith' and 'The Church' are two distinct things - and, as history has proven over and over, 'The Church' is often completely at odds with what 'the faith' is all about.

Millions of people consider themselves Catholic because they embrace the faith, and couldn't care less whether 'The Church' views them as bad or lapsed Catholics. And why would they? If you don't believe that the organization that calls itself 'The Catholic Church' has anything to do with your faith in Catholicism, you're not the least bit concerned with their opinions about anything.



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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #183)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:32 PM

188. Arguably true, but then why take offense at criticism of the Church? n/t

 

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #188)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:40 PM

192. From what I've seen

in various threads on the subject, many are taking offense at being called pedophile enablers, misogyny defenders, etc. because they identify themselves as being of the Catholic faith.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #192)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 05:30 PM

287. I am not responsible for the things other people post, but I will respond to the idea... (cont)

 

It is up to the individual to decide whether or not they accept what they feel is an insult, as well as how they choose to respond to it. I get accused of things all the time -- often without cause. You can see it in this thread in fact. Some people demand universal approval and unchallenging environment. They post ideas and opinions which they often cannot defend, then become offended when people disagree or even question them. They aren't here for discussion and debate, but validation, so they tend to use features like "ignore" to run away from debate.

I do not.

I don't mind that people disagree with me on ANY topic. I am greatfull when people take the time to respond and challenge. I would rather have one reply that challenges my position and makes me think, even if they are "mean" about it, than twenty replies telling me how awesome I am.

As for this topic: it is up to individual Catholics to decide whether or not they want to continue to support this organization. It is ther obligation to educate themselves and to discover what exactly it is that they are supporting. The criticism is only valid when an individual refuses to do this. In this case, that's exactly what most seem to have done. They do not know the facts about what their church is doing, they refuse to learn, they are taking the word of admitted criminals over the cries of their victims, and they become offended when people challenge them for it.

If the OP chooses to run away, that's on him, but it says more about him than it does about the Church's critics. They are coming armed with valid criticism and facts, and if an opponent cannot respond then he really aught to reconsider his opinion.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #287)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:42 PM

299. I have explained to you

that Catholicism is a religion and the RCC is an organization. I don't know why you persist in conflating the two. Criticizing the Church is NOT the same as criticizing those individuals who adhere to the tenets of their faith. In fact, you'll find some of the most scathing criticisms of the RCC from Catholics themselves.

You also keep bringing up this notion that Catholics need to "educate themselves and to discover what exactly it is that they are supporting. The criticism is only valid when an individual refuses to do this. In this case, that's exactly what most seem to have done. They do not know the facts about what their church is doing."

Do you seriously think that the average Catholic is not fully aware of what's been happening re pedophilia, and the cover-ups of same? Do you honestly believe that this is news to any Catholic? Have you any idea how many Catholic churches have been forced to close their doors over the past decade or so because their revenues from parishioners have dried up, due to people not wanting the money they put in the collection plate to be used for legal fees defending guilty priests, or court ordered payouts to victims who have sued the Church over their abuse and won?

I don't know what bubble you live in, where you think Catholics are unaware of the crimes, the cover-ups, the transfers of known abusers to new parishes without any warning about their past behavior? Catholics read newspapers, watch TV, participate on message boards, use the internet - ya know, all that new-fangled stuff that everyone else has access to.

So if you think you are 'educating' anyone, or disclosing something that isn't already widely known - well, sorry, but that horse was out of the barn eons ago.

"If the OP chooses to run away, that's on him, but it says more about him than it does about the Church's critics. They are coming armed with valid criticism and facts, and if an opponent cannot respond then he really aught to reconsider his opinion."

There is a vast difference between criticizing the Church and criticizing individuals who adhere to the Catholic faith. Exactly how does one respond to being belittled because of their religion - more to the point, why should they respond? What is the appropriate response to being told you're a pedophile enabler because you believe in the tenets of a particular faith?

The OP didn't 'run away'. He left a site where he no longer feels welcome. Would you suggest that if DU was full of homophobic tirades, gays and lesbians should just stick around for the abuse? In that circumstance, would gays/lesbians who left the site as a result of the constant bashing of their sexual orientation be 'running away'? Wouldn't it actually be a case of, "Fuck this, I don't need this shit"?

I find your arrogance in believing you are 'educating' Catholics to be absurd, and the idea of someone needing to "reconsider his opinion" about his faith because of posters on a message board to be beyond laughable. Religious faith is not 'an opinion'. It is something much deeper and more profound than that - and maybe you 'aught' to think about that.



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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #299)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:38 PM

309. Some who was a Catholic but rejected the Catholic church would have no complaint

 

Right? Or are we to believe that these are non-Catholic Catholics who no longer support the Church for these and other reasons, yet still feel compelled to self-identify with that Church and take offense at criticisms leveled against it?

In other words, you are being silly.

In any case, as much as I enjoy a good debate this one has swerved dangerously close to discussing posters here rather than the church in general. I believe the later is appropriate and the former is definately not. So I am waving farewell to this topic and moving on.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #309)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:51 PM

310. Yes, perhaps it's best if you do.

You seem to be intellectually incapable of understanding that Catholicism is a religion, and the RCC is an organization - despite my having explained it to you repeatedly.

Millions of Catholics adhere to the tenets of the Catholic faith and DO NOT self-identify with the RCC.

I haven't seen anyone here taking offense at criticism of the RCC - but they have taken offense, and rightly so, at people criticizing their religious beliefs.

I'm sorry you think that pointing out the blatantly obvious to you is 'silly'. Perhaps it's best if you move on to 'educating' all of those ignorant Catholics who never knew of the scandals in the RCC until you came along to enlighten them.

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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #41)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:27 AM

126. The Church is arguably cleaner and more respectable now

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #29)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:25 AM

124. The OP is addressing bigoted attitudes of fellow DU'ers not

the church's culpability in crimes.

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Response to mulsh (Reply #124)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:22 PM

179. You are no doubt aware that the two are related n/t

 

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #29)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:30 PM

139. There are a lot of assumptions there.

Do you normally do that, make massive assumptions about people you don't know, post overwhelming amounts of data, and then sit back, smug in the "knowledge" that you educated someone?

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Response to knitter4democracy (Reply #139)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:35 PM

159. Which assumptions to you challenge, and on what grounds?

 

I gave you the numbers and proposed reasonable conclusions. You are welcome to dispute them.

Do you perhaps believe that the victims of Catholic rape are MORE likely to report these crimes than, for example, the victims of similar crimes perpetrated by a swim coach or scoutmaster? If so why? And given the wholesale denial even today -- when we KNOW by the Church's own admission that these crimes did take place -- do you believe that these reports were more or less likely to be believed? Again, even today many Catholics refuse to believe that this was really going on.

The REALITY is that is requires an astonishing leap of faith, and trust the Church has demonstrated it is undeserving of, to believe that this was anything less than what I have posted. This was not a few bad apples, it was systemic. We are literally talking about an organization with hundreds of thousands of leaders, all either knowing of or participating in the abuse of children.

Are you aware that in the Netherlands the Catholic Church CASTRATED boys who reported these crimes?

This evil was not an American tale. It went on world wide, and it is almost certainly still going on today. There is nothing so foul that you can dream up -- slavery, sexual abuse, the wholesale torture of children, you name it -- that this organization was not doing somewhere.

And now some are unhappy that people are pointing it out. We should just be quiet about it and focus on the pure righteous goodness of these ghouls. It's like saying, "Jeff Dahmer might have been a canibal, but he was great with kids."

http://tswi.org/english/article/forced-castrations-reportedly-found-roman-catholic-care
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/19/dutch-church-castrated-treatment-homosexuality_n_1365725.html

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #159)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:43 PM

162. Yes, I am aware of all of that and other stories you haven't posted.

1. You assumed the OP didn't know these things. You didn't ask, just as you didn't ask me before posting the most prurient stories you could find. I know worse ones, by the way, having taught in Catholic schools and being Eastern Orthodox. See, you assumed I didn't know those stories.

2. You assumed the OP hadn't ever done anything about it. That's not a safe assumption given what he posted.

3. You seem to assume that the worst crimes are only within the RCC. You'd be amazed at what's been done to children in other faiths and organizations, all swept under the rug.

4. You assumed that the OP was just unhappy that people are pointing out the crimes. I saw that nowhere in the post. Instead, it was the demonization of regular Catholics he was reacting to, something you seem to be contributing to. Please correct me if I am wrong there.

Why assume that people don't know? Trust me, the vast majority of Catholics know and know far more than what you've posted. That's why tithes are down to the point of closing schools and churches. That's why attendance rates are way down. They know, and they're furious.

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Response to knitter4democracy (Reply #162)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:24 PM

180. I too know far worse. But I appreciate you conceding the point n/t

 

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #180)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:24 PM

210. Of course I concede that crimes have been committed.

I thank God I'm not in charge or they'd all be burning in Hell for eternity regardless of confession or anything. I cannot forgive them just yet, and most Catholics I know feel the same way. Why assume they don't?

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Response to knitter4democracy (Reply #210)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 06:06 PM

288. Simple: their actions

 

If you discover your babysitter is abusing your kids, saying you are bothered by this while you write a check for the next month's service really doesn't get it, and no one would accept the "I said I was bothered" excuse when you offered it.

The reality is this: The Church has never come clean about any of this, and the horrors continue to be discovered -- each more despicable than the last. Not only are they not coming clean, the Church is still defending it. And I am not just talking about the wholesale child rape that was going on here in America.

Their members don't want to know. They don't want to hear about it, they don't want people talking about it, they accept the lies of admitted criminals and close their eyes when presented with reality. They were and are offering blanket forgiveness -- and they don't know or care what or how many crimes they are actually forgiving.

Are you aware that up until 1996 the Catholic church kept as many as 30,000 women as SLAVES in Ireland alone? Not 1796.. 1996! Slaves, and it wasn't just Ireland. Are you aware that while they generally were just raping children here in America, elsewhere they engaing in the wholesale physical torture of children? I am talking here about tens of thousand of children brutalized and often killed. They were castrated, given electro shock, flogged with bullwhips, they had their legs plunged into boiling water, they were tortured with red hot pokers, they were used as forced labor, they were sexually assaulted... the most disgusting twisted perversions imaginable were going on all across the world.

I could go on posting this stuff all day, but the people who SHOULD care the most clearly do not. But those of us who do care aren't going to pretend none of this is happening just to spare the feelings of the Church supporters.


http://americablog.com/2013/02/magdalen-laundries-catholic-ireland-irish-apology.html
http://www.vaticancrimes.us/2012/07/catholic-church-scandal-torture-orphans.html
http://www.freedommag.org/english/press/page07.htm
http://vorige.nrc.nl/international/article2530647.ece/Catholic_nuns_also_abused_children
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/116007.stm

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #288)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 07:05 PM

293. The RCC is too monolithic to make those kinds of assumptions.

Many have spoken out. Many have made sure the bishop knew and then did something about it. Many have banded together to fight. The reason you know all of that is because Catholics have spoken out, come forward, corroborated stories, kept stories being told so they weren't covered up, etc. Many times, victims would have been silenced but for brave believers taking their side.

Yes, what too damn many in the church has done is evil and sin. Yes, too damn many have looked the other way. Same could be said for any organization anywhere. Thanks to brave believers, more of the truth is coming out--don't assume they're all silent.

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Response to knitter4democracy (Reply #293)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:10 PM

298. Nice post. I will let you have the last word my friend n/t

 

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 04:35 PM

284. I imagine our guilt-by-association is relevant not merely to churches, but to nations also.

I imagine our guilt-by-association is relevant not merely to churches, but to nations also. I imagine that to criticize the associations of another, we ourselves would have to be pretty damned innocent to make that indictment.

So which blameless nation do you call home?

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Response to LanternWaste (Reply #284)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 10:41 AM

328. It is not "guilt by association"

It is complicity and shared responsibility for those who continue to financially and otherwise support the Catholic Church and to practice endless spin and apologetics in its defense, even knowing what they claim to know about it, and knowing that it's homophobic and sexist practices will continue unashamedly for the foreseeable future.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:00 AM

20. you I wouldn't care about leaving ....

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:01 AM

21. What are you doing about it?

What power do you imagine he has that you don't have?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:19 AM

32. He has the power to choose what organizations he supports n/t

 

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:30 AM

56. And he has the power to choose

what religious philosophy he supports, in mind and in spirit - which has nothing to do with an 'organization', and everything to do with the faith he adheres to.

Just because YOU don't know the difference between the two doesn't mean that others are equally ignorant.



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Response to Summer Hathaway (Reply #56)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:49 PM

165. He is free to support any organization or faith he prefers

 

He is also free to feel 'persecuted' when people point out exactly what he is supporting. He's free to feel that way, but his feelings in no way alter reality. You can support Hezbollah based upon their many charitable works, but do not act surprised and offended when people point out their other activities.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:41 AM

60. I think you have very limited rigid notions about what behavior can be & what it can mean, which,

I suspect, is driven by fascistic power motives. It's really pretty shocking to see such broad absolute assumptions being made about the nearly infinite number of behavioral memes of the millions of people you are referring to. Aren't you even slightly uncomfortable maintaining that position? It's odd, really!

I project that your response to my hypothesis will be something like "behavior means what I, and the cohort with which I identify, say it means", which is true for you, but what can make that attitude the heart and soul of the fascist will to power is that somehow, though everyone is to respect your behavioral semantics BECAUSE of YOUR right as an individual to think what you wish, that is, they are to respect what you think Catholic behavior means because YOU, an individual person with the right to do so, think it, somehow that maxim never applies to any individual who would have the gall to think the opposite of what you say OTHER people's behaviors mean.

A big problem with fascists is that they have no respect for the sorts of things that kept the love of freedom alive in the hearts and minds of slaves for almost 300 years, before a majority of them got an opportunity to do something more to live free in their world or elsewhere if they chose to. Your tidy little fascistic categorizations are based on the assumption that no one can learn anything worthwhile in less than ideal circumstances, so circumstances have to be changed before people can change and, yet, somehow these people who have not changed are supposed to produce changed circumstances, including organizations like the RC church.

You negate all but a zero sum symbiosis, which isn't characteristic of human learning at all and learning is the foundation of change, not the force that you assume.

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Response to patrice (Reply #60)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:16 AM

65. Excellent post! "Fascistic" is a bit strong, but I think otherwise you're dead on.

I'm not a practicing Catholic myself, although I guess I'd consider myself "culturally Catholic" in the sense that I was raised and educated (up through high school) in the Church - analogous, I suppose, to being a non-observant Jew. But lately, around here, I've seen a hell of a lot of people in glass houses throwing stones, or maybe Molotov cocktails in this case. I certainly don't think that non-Catholic Americans are in any position to condemn their Catholic countrymen for "enabling evil" and so forth.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:15 PM

155. Some people choose to stay and change the church from within.

I left but I applaud those who stayed to try to make the church a better and safer place. Are you saying all Roman Catholics should give up their faith?

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:23 PM

157. What organization do you think he supports?

And why haven't you chosen to stop funding the US govt that has killed hundreds of thousands if not millions of people around the world?

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #32)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:34 AM

314. and he has made that choice

He will no longer be associating with ignorant bigots who make DU suck.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #314)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 07:04 AM

316. And he will keep associating with organisation that promotes homophobia, mysoginism and protection

of pedophiles. OP made a great choice' good for him!

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #316)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 01:37 PM

317. an organization that is the largest provider

of charitable services to the poor in the US.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #317)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 06:24 PM

318. But of course! Homophobia, mysoginism, and pedophilia is nothing to compare to charity work!



At last we see where the priorities are.

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #318)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 11:57 PM

319. What evidence do you have

that his parish priest or local church is in anyway engaged in any of those ills? It's highly unlikely that is the case. You would be hard pressed to find many Catholics who have heard their parish priest condemn homosexuality.

It is possible to recognize that an institution can be both homophobic and charitable toward the poor. To imagine all the 1.2 billion Catholics on earth are the same is incredibly absurd. I can't even get inside the kind of mind that would imagine they are, or that he thinks it appropriate to judge 1/3 of the human race because of what he sees on TV.

I'm sorry that feeding the poor and providing shelter and medical care for the homeless are not priorities for you. Everyone can't be born into privilege. A lot of people struggle to survive in this country. That so many consider that unimportant goes a long way toward explaining why we have one of the greatest disparities of wealth in the world.

MANY Protestant churches are far more intolerant of homosexuality than the Catholic church. I guess that doesn't count since they aren't on your TV as much. After all, TV is what really counts.

There are also more women in positions of leadership within the Catholic church than in the US government or corporate America, but don't let any information muddle your head.

I get that you're heavily invested in cultivating hatred. I'm sorry for that. I thought you had the capacity to distinguish between the Vatican and the Council of Bishops and your neighbors. I clearly misjudged you. I have now learned my lesson.

FYI: "mysoginism" is not even a word.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #319)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 11:59 AM

324. Charity work doesn't compensate for preaching hatred against members of LGBTQ community.

And hatred against women, and protecting pedophiles. And shit load of other stuff. The harm it does far out weights whatever good feeding poor might accomplish.

I have no idea what individual parish priests tell their congregation but unless they openly condemn Vatican for preaching hatred they don't get a pass either. Silence on this matter is as bad as what Vatican and lot of bishops spew openly, every time they get a chance.

I was under impression that helping the poor and preaching equality at the same time is possible. There are at least 3 religious orgs in UK who do just that. They definitely get my respect because they deserve it.

The topic of this thread is RCC hence I am talking about RCC. Start one about any other religion and I will be happy to tell you exactly the same thing about them, unless they are a few of those who preach equality.

BTW, what gave an idea I got my info from TV? I do have one but its hooked up to the PS3 and Nintendo Wii for game playing. Do you get your news from TV? Is that why you assumed I do too?

P.S. thank you for letting me know there is no such word as "misoginism" in English. Being ESL, I do get mixed up a lot. I am guessing that correct word to use would be misogyny. Please, do correct me if I am wrong.

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Response to idwiyo (Reply #318)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 12:00 AM

320. God forbid

poverty should be a priority for anyone in America, the land of unbridled greed and obscene corporate profits.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #320)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 11:00 AM

323. Ah, of course. It's either poverty or that other stuff. And charity of course beats that other stuff

Because that other stuff is icky and really shouldn't be talked about in a polite society. Charity work with poor on the other hand is perfectly acceptable topic of conversation for young ladies.



Well, don't know about you but I'd sooner fucking starve than accept handouts from homophobes, misogynysts and child molesters. I can say that because I know how it feels to be hungry for days on the end. And I never accepted help from a religious charity and never will, unless its one of the few who treat everyone the same.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:45 AM

76. +1

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:10 AM

49. You cannot make such sweeping predictions with statistics.

That's not how they are designed to work. If you were attempting to argue this point to a researcher, they would not be amused and would probably never ask you to do such research ever again.

The only way to know the prevalence of non-reporting for sexual abuse by priests is to further investigate sexual abuse by priests.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #49)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:56 PM

167. Feel free to offer your conclusions.

 

We do know the percentage of unreported crimes against children in general. In the case of the Church, I conclude that the percentages are similar (and they could easily be worse), and I have offered my reasons why this would be.

You are free to offer other conclusions. What percentage would you like to go with, and what do you base this upon?

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #167)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:29 PM

185. My conclusion is that we can't make up such figures...

In order to truly know the incidence of non-reporting for sexual abuse from priests, we would have to do more research on the subject.

I'm not saying your figures are wrong. I'm saying we simply cannot know unless we investigate further. So it's not wise to try and make the claim that you know 1 in 4 priests were committing abuse. That's not something you could possibly be sure on.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #185)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:42 PM

193. Of course we can :)

 

You would like us to assume that abuse allegations involving the church are reported significantly more often than abuse allegations against anyone else. I suspect that the opposite is true, and that these numbers under-state the problem by a significant amount. I have offered my reasons why I believe this.

But I didn't go there. I avoided my suspicions and used the Church's own numbers and the known reporting rate. I invite you to seriously consider what these numbers actually mean. Go ahead and insert any reporting rate you like, then think it through. I guarantee you will be appalled at what the numbers mean.

In any case, I have some work to do. Be back later.


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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:01 AM

71. Your facts have nothing to do with being a member of a large religion.

You don't understand Catholicism or Catholics. You are, in effect, attacking the OP as being in favor of pedophilia if he remains in his religion, which is ridiculous. It's not like joining the Boy Scouts.

You don't "join" the Catholic Church. You ARE Catholic. You are Catholic, even though you get divorced, use birth control, swear, get an abortion....all things which are sins according to the rules of Catholicism.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #71)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:17 AM

112. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen in print.

"You ARE Catholic?"

Why then, do you have to be baptized INTO the religion? Why do you have to attend classes to teach you the doctrine? Why do you have to do penance for breaking the rules, if you simply ARE Catholic? Just because most Catholics are born to Catholic parents who choose to indoctrinate their children into the religion does not mean the children don't join the Church.

Good grief.

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #112)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:02 PM

172. i have to agree.

 

it's a fact that the vast majority of humanity dies in the same religion they were born and indoctrinated into, but that doesn't make it an identifying characteristic, just a tribute the power of indoctrination. as an nonbeliever i know the analogy of 'coming out atheist' is just that.. *analogous* to coming out in the rainbow LGBTQ, but *not* the same.. because religious belief or lack thereof is learned behavior, not innate. it only gets 'special' treatment because of the history of religious warfare led to the wall of separation. it's handled with kid gloves, IOW, not like the fundamental rights of an individual in the face of discrimination against them for an inalterable trait like race, gender, etc.

nobody just IS any religion. it's a learned behavior when you're a kid, and a choice when you're an adult.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #71)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:07 PM

175. Actually... no. Not exactly.

 

The OP is complaining that he feels persecuted for his beliefs. I am pointing out one (of many) reasons why some people are criticizing the organization he is a member of.

After that it's on him. He doesn't have to care what they have done or are doing. He can decide that the good he sees outweights the bad. That's entirely up to him.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #71)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:58 PM

259. My dad was born into a catholic family, raised catholic, went to catholic school

And quit the church after ww2 and was no longer a catholic. It is a choice, not a genetic condition. We are responsible for the choices we make, every day, day after day, until we die.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:34 AM

100. The US Government has committed atrocities, and still is doing so, beyond belief

and has yet to even admit, let alone hold anyone responsible for them. Millions have been slaughtered and more raped and tortured, not to mention the sodomy of children.

I would post links and photos, but the number of cases is so huge it would be impossible to even begin to do justice to the extent of the problem and to the sheer numbers of victims.

If Americans oppose these policies they can always leave the country and go elsewhere in order to avoid supporting them even under duress.

Or, they could remain an attempt to change those horrific policies, work towards one day forcing some accountability from their government and some justice for the victims.

What do you think people should do when they are misrepresented by leadership, either of a country or an organization?

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #100)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:20 PM

178. Fair and excellent question!

 

The answer is that everyone must decide for themselves what their breaking point is. They would weight the attrocities versus the good, and factor in the cost (or possibility) of leaving.

For example, the Boy Scouts undoubtedly do some good things. An individual would have to decide for themselves whether or not the bad -- the child molestation scandal, the position on gays and atheists, and what not -- warrant their departure. Leaving is a simple as can be, one simply stops attending the meetings or sending in money. If one chooses to continue to participate then they have made their choice.

It changes a bit when we are talking about a nation. Leaving requires an entirely different level of committment and sacrifice, and it might not even be possible.

Anyone in America can change their church at will. Assuming it's not a cult, they can join and quit ten churchs a day if they want.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #178)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 11:27 AM

271. Well, millions of people have left their countries and are still doing so throughout

history. It was not and is not easy for them, any more than it would be for an American. If your government reaches a point where it no longer represents your core beliefs and you, by paying taxes, are supporting invasions and torture etc, you do have a decision to make. You can either turn a blind eye and try to focus on the good your country does, leave, or stay and try to change things.

I like option 3. Nothing changes when all the good people leave. The Catholic Church has more members world wide than this country. It has huge power to do good in the world, and like this country, many of its members have done a great deal of good. And like any large grouping of people, there are bad people who make bad decisions. Some of them in positions of power, just like this country.

I am a Liberal eg, because of my Catholic upbringing. I suppose the same is true of the Kennedys, Kerry and many other Democratic leaders. I learned that we are supposed to look out for the 'least among us' as the actual founder of the Church preached. I learned how he cured the sick, and didn't send them a bill, gave to the poor and didn't tell them to 'pull themselves up by their bootstraps', how he warned the rich that it would be 'more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle'. I made myself a promise that if I ever got rich, I would try to make sure I used that wealth for the benefit of others as well as myself.

We know that there are criminals within the Church as there are within every large, and sometimes small organizations. But we don't demand that everyone bail out when these criminals are discovered, we ask that THEY be removed, from our Governments, from our Churches etc. And when they are not (see Dick Cheney/Bush, Wall Street Criminals etc) it doesn't mean we should give up. We keep trying to make it a better country. Same goes for people who belong to any other organization that has the power to do good.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:59 PM

169. Casually multiplying the evidence by ten is ridiculous and contemptible. NT

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #169)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:26 PM

181. What number would you prefer, and why?

 

I am willing to consider any numbers you care to suggest, but be prepared to support them.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #181)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:24 PM

236. I wouldn't.

When one produces a number, it gives the reader an impression one has some evidence for that number. There is no evidence for a number in this case, and so we should avoid giving the false impression that we have some, and stick to quoting the number of accusations, for which we do have evidence.

If you *are* going to make up a number, the only sensible number to make up is "one". That doesn't take into account either cases where no accusation was made, or false accusations, but it's less silly than any other number one might make up.

And "ten" is a number so vast as to be utterly risible.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #236)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:13 PM

246. Nonsense :)

 

We KNOW what percentage of these crimes are reported to authorities. That is not open to debate, or at least no one here has chosen to question it. The only thing they have challenged is:

1. Whether we should talk about it at all. It seems that this is the position most Church defenders are taking. No one has even attempted to challenge any of the facts I presented or attempted to defend the church in other ways. They would just prefer we not talk about it. I consider this abhorent, and believe the victims deserve better.

2. Whether or not this percentage -- which is accepted everywhere else -- applies when it comes to the Church. As I have said repeatedly, I am willing to entertain any numbers someone cares to offer provided they justify them in some rational way. But so far no one seems interested in doing this. And the reason is obvious-- there is absolutely no reason to believe that these crimes are reported more frequently when the abuser is a priest.

Just the opposite in fact.

And this goes to the heart of the entire matter. No one wants to believe this happened, no one wants to talk about it, and the defenders of the church in particular would rather do anything than consider the true scope of this nightmare and what it really means about the organization they support.

I have done nothing in this thread except post facts and links to back them up, and I was nice enough to concede from the beginning that the OP was no-doubt unaware of the true scope of this crime. I still believe that this is true, and I believe most of the people responding to me STILL are not thinking this all the way through, or allowing themselves to really consider what these numbers actually mean.

For this I have been roundly attacked and criticized, I have even been called a fascist. Not because I am DEFENDING an organization of child predators, but because I am doing the opposite. The OP is complaining that people are picking on him and his faith but it certainly isn't evident in this thread.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #246)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 05:14 AM

262. What am I then, scotch mist?

When you say "know", I suspect that what you mean is "read a study somewhere that tentatively suggested, without strong evidence to back it up, and used that to convince yourself that what you want to be true is evidence-based rather than guesswork".

I can't authoritatively challenge your figure - it seems absurdly high, but I don't have better information than you. But your use of words like "know" and "accepted everywhere else" is simply factually wrong.

I'm not calling you a fascist. I am, however, calling you a grade A example of conformation bias, with no grasp of how to assess evidence, and guilty of (probably deliberately and knowingly) overrepresenting the strength of the evidence for your position in the hope of cowing others into accepting it, despite the fact that it's absurd.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #262)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 06:13 PM

290. I have provided numbers and links. I can provide more.

 

It should be very simple for you to challenge these numbers if they are considered inaccurate. You might note, however, that so far NO ONE has done so. You can bet they have tried.

I suggest you spend fifteen minutes and find out what the accepted reporting rate for abuse against children actually is, since that's the only number even in question. Come up with your own number and see what conclusions that leads you to.

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Response to Demo_Chris (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 06:34 AM

265. K&R. Terrific post. Thank you. I am afraid though that it will fall on deaf ears. People who

should be reading this and running away from RCC don't wan to hear these facts. It's too painful, to disturbing. They'd prefer to talk about "bigotry against RCC" instead. And charity works done by RCC. Because it makes it all better, somehow. Or so they claim.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:51 AM

18. GBCW

 


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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:05 AM

22. Please don't leave. There are jerks everywhere and there are also really good people

everywhere. People get all whipped up and say stupid things all the time. We need people like you to educate them.

That being said I am truly sorry that people have been mean to you because of your religion.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:06 AM

23. Beautiful post. Pearls before swine.

Unfortunately.

The ugliness is getting out of hand.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:07 AM

24. I'm an atheist too, and I don't want you to leave

The anti-Catholic bashing is appalling. Every religion probably has some objectionable tenets or behavior by their hierarchy, it doesn't reflect at all on 99.9% of Catholics.

This is the same mentality who think all Muslims are terrorists and beat their wives.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #24)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:36 AM

128. I agree..

Even if I am non Christian..what makes up this country is its diversity, the same diversity that makes up DU. We are all in this together and if there are any "enemies" it should be those who are against democratic ideals..like equality.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:08 AM

25. This place needs a big dose of Troll-B-Gone

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:37 AM

102. Nailed it!..

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:24 AM

114. "Gang Members Intimidate Neighbor"

is what this reminds me of.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:18 AM

121. Thugs, etc...

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #121)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:52 AM

131. Waaaay too many thugs.

I hope every day gets a little better after your loss Bobbie Jo.

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Response to great white snark (Reply #131)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:54 AM

133. Thank you

for remembering.

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #121)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:40 PM

191. Amen to that.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:18 PM

156. +1000

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #25)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:36 PM

212. Truly. And it's not always ideology, it's behavior.

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #25)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:29 AM

313. Yes it does.

Finally, a worthwhile sub-thread!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:12 AM

26. I would not leave. I would just look at

some of the crazy posts as the evolution of DU. LOL I have actually been put on ignore by some people.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:13 AM

27. I hope you realize that those saying this are not the majority.

Liberals, including myself, are traditionally known for their tolerance, even of beliefs they don't share. I'm not particularly religious, myself, but more power to those who do have faith. Most of my relatives are of Irish descent and also Catholic, and I'm offended by these accusations, too.

When I think of Catholic, I don't think of rogue priests, or even the pope, but of my Dad's much older cousin, Margaret. She was truly a woman of faith, a retired teacher who spent her retirement years making and repairing dolls for children. She just loved people, especially children, and kept in touch with many of her beloved former students for the rest of her life. She was small, with white hair, who still adored her "handsome hero" of a husband, waited to marry him until he returned from WWII. She liked to pass out cards with Irish sayings, and was a regular church goer. I can still picture her in church, head bowed, with her rosary beads. She finally left this life at 91, went to her wake, also held in her beloved church.

So when I read these insults, I find myself thinking of Margaret, and I'm offended, too. I think this has become a discussion here on DU right now because of the news about the new pope. I've also been here for a very long time and know that this, too, shall pass. I hope that you decide to stick around.

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #27)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:18 AM

31. I want to thank all who are giving accounts of great Catholics that you know

It is only through getting to know people on a one on one, personal basis as one human to another that these stereotypes and prejudices die. These are lovely stories of great Catholics. Please keep them coming.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:13 AM

50. Thank you and I completely agree.

This is just one member of my family, but hardly the only one who's worthy of my admiration. And they're all loyal Democrats, too.

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #27)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:39 AM

103. You make an excellent point about the lack of tolerance here.

It is truly sad to see. Disappointing as well, because -- like you -- I thought that liberals were tolerant people.

Signed, a recovering Catholic.

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Response to greatauntoftriplets (Reply #103)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:54 AM

107. It's kind of shocking, to tell you the truth

Especially since most Catholics are reliable Democrats, at least my relatives are. When I worked for my congressman's campaign, I was tickled to find actual relatives of mine on my GOTV list. And, as recent polls have shown, the majority of Catholics embrace Democratic principles, even those which go against Church teachings. We need to embrace fellow Democrats, not look for ways to insult them.

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #107)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:22 AM

113. It is shocking...

especially when you consider that many Irish came to this country to escape (among other things) religious intolerance and the fact that their faith essentially made them second-class citizens in their own country. And then, they encountered discrimination, partly in the form of the Know Nothings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:14 AM

28. It's shameful the way Catholics have been treated on this board for the past couple of years.

But it's a cheap trick that some posters use to avoid discussion. They cast their opponent as an "(insert group here) enabler" in order to shut down any discussion of the issues from someone else's perspective and they get to continue attacking as their opponent has to defend the "enabler" charge.

I understand you frustration with this current environment, and I can't blame you one bit for wanting to put it behind you. Perhaps a short period away from DU would do some good. Whatever you decide, I wish you well.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:18 AM

30. Well, that sucks. I for one like to read your posts and replies to other posts. Stick around!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:35 AM

33. There is a long history of anti-Catholic

sentiment in this country, and this is just the latest manifestation of it. I hope you've read some of Skinner's responses in ATA and know that he doesn't agree with the bigots here. Papism has always been the heart of bigotry against Catholicism and it still is. Charges of papism were levied at JFK when he ran for president, and used to justify the Klan's burning crosses on the lawns of Catholics like my grandmother. Anti-Catholic views have a long history in this country and are a manifestation of racism, first against the Irish, who were not seen as white in the 19th century, and now Latinos. People always find reasons to justify their bigotry. That's what bigots do. But really like all forms of bigotry it's about ignorance and hatred. You'll notice that some of those most hateful of Catholics are also the most uneducated posters on the board, who know nothing about history and the people they so despise.

I completely understand how you feel. Even though I'm not a practicing Catholic, I come from a Catholic family. The idea that ignorant people would call my grandmother a "criminal" infuriates me. Like your family, she voted Catholic in every election since the passage of women's suffrage. The inability of some DUers to distinguish pedophiles and the church hierarchy from good, liberal Democratic Catholics is a function of their own limited understanding. Ironically, these same people steadfastly deny their own complicity in the actions of the US government, while blaming Catholics for something they have no control over. While I wish you would not leave, I certainly cannot deny that you have very good reasons for doing so. I will just add that when it comes to sexism or anti-Catholicism, I myself have decided that I will not let the bigots drive me away.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #33)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:31 PM

158. Read this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/123013689
This one complains because the owner of this site had the gall to congratulate the Roman Catholic members of this site because they had a new pope. How dare he do a horrible thing like that. Just unbelievable!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1259668 And it looks like a another valued member feels the need to leave DU for a time.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #158)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:52 PM

197. Wow, that's really bad

I think it's time for the administrators to do something about bigotry before the site is left with only the most narrow minded people.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #197)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:54 PM

198. I was in shock that they were really angry about this.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #198)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:04 PM

204. And Will leaving

He's an institution around here. So sad.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #204)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:06 PM

205. Well he reponded to this thread if you scroll down so maybe he may decide to stay.

I hope he stays!

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #158)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:48 PM

214. That's why I have trashed many groups. I don't need that echo chamber.

And this last week or so... Has made me question a lot about myself. I've told you I'm not into religion anymore.

But I still love many Christians and miss their company. The Interfaith group and other places have shown more empathy than I see at DU now.

I have tried to speak up for all persons of faith or not, as a matter of dignity and freedom. The unintended consequence of these many words is that they have literally driven me back to church.

I will be spending more real world time with them, less listening to this place. It's all good for me in my offline life, but I'm sorry to see good people run off.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #214)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:51 PM

216. Thank you for your post. I know it was heartfelt.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #216)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:55 PM

218. Ah, you made me cry. I have a lot of respect for your opinion, sir.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #218)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:58 PM

219. And I yours!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:40 AM

34. Please don't leave.

You are a highly respected and an asset to this community. Fight for your position and defend it and when the going gets too crazy just take a break away from that conflict. But just leaving is not helpful to your cause or the education we all seek. I should know. I left last week, then realized how useless it was to just disappear. I sucked it up, decided to try seek changes to my own manner and jumped back in.. a little egg on face but that doesn't matter.

You belong here as much as anyone and I sure we all want your input to make this place the microcosm of America that it is.

I'm an atheist. That compels me to be as straightforward and honest as I can be, which also means I need to stand firm on issues that have reasonable facts to back it up. But it also compels me to change my mind if the information changes. So... change my mind.

Don't take people's opinion personally even if you feel it is personal. You opinion still counts and is worth as much or more than the manipulative comments you perceive. If the reason in an argument fails, it will eventually crash... as it should.

Stick around. Make this place better by giving us you and allowing others to be as well...

...no matter how ugly it seems at times.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:41 AM

35. You do realize that there are TENS of THOUSANDS of DUers

and that only a handful have taken the stance you describe. You're leaving DU because you're focusing on them and not the TENS of THOUSANDS who don't carry this POV nor posted anything derogatory about Catholics (the Pope is fair game). If you want to leave DU, that's your decision, but be honest about the reason at least.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #35)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:45 AM

37. hate is hurtful even if the people doing it are not the majority

There are millions of people who would never dream of calling a black person the n word or a gay person the f word or someone with a mental disability the r word, but it still hurts when even just one person does it.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:57 AM

42. But you have to weigh those accusations

with reality. Is the OP a pedophile? A misogynist? If the answer is "no" to both of those questions, and I'm sure they are, then the value of the accusations are nil.

I have a weird sense of humor that often doesn't come off well on DU. I've been accused of being a misogynist (though I'm a lifelong feminist), a racist (though my family has looked like the U.N. since the early 1960's) and there are/were e-mails going around, to which I have been privy, telling others not to pay attention to anything I have to say because I'm crazy -- as in mentally disturbed. The point is that *I* know I am none of those things and if I were to have left DU (as I've sometimes considered) I would have handed over to those with false accusations MY power to speak freely.

Look, there are always going to be people out there who thrive, literally, on raining on other peoples' parades. They think it makes them feel better about themselves. You can choose to give those people and their words credence or you can choose not to give them credence. It's up to you.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #42)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:01 AM

44. I have to admit I'm pretty sensitive to it. It is usually best if I put people like that on ignore

or trash the thread that way I can't get my feelings hurt.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #44)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:10 AM

47. Stay strong, my friend. (Goes for the OP as well.)

Life is too short to be dealing with assbites. Ignore and Trash Thread are there for a reason. I've no problem using both regularly.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:06 AM

118. But how then do you deal with the Pope saying gay people are of Satan and such?

He is not just some DUer, he is the Holy Father, Vicar of Christ. Hate is hurtful. It seems that some empathy might be in order, as well as perspective. If one or two DUers making a comment is reason to wail a goodby to DU, then what of the Pope and others who constantly attack gay people? Should there not be sympathy for those who don't care for that instead of 'hey, it's not all of us'? You say that even if it is not the majority, it hurts. Same goes for shit said by RCC leadership. How can one take a general offense to DU because of a few, but also demand that others take each RCC case individually? If what the Pope says is not the view of all Catholics, then why is it that what one DUers says is held against all of DU? Is there any reason or consistency?
It seems to me that what you are saying is that when folks speak of A Catholic such as Francis, they speak of all Catholics, but when the shoe is non the other foot, A Catholic says shit about gay people, instantly the reaction is 'that's just him, not us!'
If it is him, not them, then they should not be offended when I say fuck Francis for insulting my family in horrible terms, on the world stage, using a God mask to steal divine authority.
One can not say 'To insult the Pope is to insult us all, but none of us are responsible for the hate the Pope speaks' and be taken seriously.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #118)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 02:18 PM

275. I was asking myself the same question while reading this thread

The answer to how can they support the atrocities and active misogyny and bigotry of the church is always, "We're changing it from within!" But they can't take even a hint of criticism or they're out of here? Wow, it's almost stunning.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #35)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:51 AM

77. I am sure the OP does. His point is there are 1.2 Billion catholics, and we focus on a few

of them and act as if they represent them all.

What is good for the goose they say...

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #77)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:15 AM

82. And by the same token,

there are tens of thousands of DUers and the OP is focusing "on a few of them and act(s) as if they represent them all" (in this case, DUers.) It's the same point.

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Response to Le Taz Hot (Reply #82)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:22 AM

84. Perhpaps then we should ask ourselves

How many of the majority here speak out note the same thing on threads about catholics/etc?

Is silence a form acceptance? Do we see more people vocally (well written/typed) bashing a group and less calling them on it?

If someone came on here and regularly bashed jews I am guessing such posts would be hidden and there would be more people on the thread defending them than attacking. That it is the opposite in the case of catholics perhaps sends a message that it is more accepted here.

Example - I had a thread I posted last night hidden that bashing an imam for calling for violence. The source was from apparently a rw source (was a new source to me, I found it doing a google news source) - someone actually took the time to research the site and focus more on the site than the article (I reposted and it was not hidden).

You can bash catholics and no one will look into such things.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #84)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:16 AM

96. I think we can

choose to interpret silence in whatever way we want, but that doesn't make the interpretation valid. The reader really has no idea why other posters may or may not choose to be silent on any particular topic. The silence may be assent, but then again, it may be something as incidental as lack of time (ever read posts on the go and want to respond but you're not in a position to?). It may be (as in my case) a complete lack of interest in the subject and so people just aren't even opening the threads. In the first example, there is active assent represented by silence. In the latter two examples, the silence is passive. Don't make the mistake of equating all forms of silence as being assent. They aren't.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:43 AM

36. .



Please don't go.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:49 AM

38. Huh? There are always

extreme ideas posted here but why give them so much power?
Why brand the thousands of members with the ideas of a few?

I know that some of my posts attract industry troll types who have been at best nasty and given to personal insults. So what? That just gives me another opportunity to set the record straight!

Sleep on it and give it all a bigger perspective. If you really do like DU, you will realize that a couple of comments do not the whole of DU make.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:49 AM

39. I hope you choose to stay.

And even though i worry that the church does a poor job regulating their priest and could do better i would never think of you as a enabler, I don't think anyone is for child abuse and we would all like to see the leadership come up with something that is better then what they are doing.

Catholics are my favorite sect of Christan religion and do much good in the world,but i think its ok to criticize the bad and ask for it to change if only because we would like those that do good works to only do good works.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:51 AM

40. Don't give up D.I.

Persevere through the B.S.; you're not alone.

I'm an Irish Catholic, too. People who believe in God
are accused of being self-righteous and are talked down to
all the time. Granted, some "religious" folk are just that,
but Atheists are the most self-righteous lot there is.

But they can't be accepted into the GOP, so they end up in places
like DU where everyone is accepted.... except Catholics and trolls.

Shake the dust from your sandal and march on brother!

Pax Cristi

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Response to King_Klonopin (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:58 AM

43. self righteousness is one of my pet peeves

whether it is religious people being self righteous or non-religious people being self righteous. It makes my blood boil and I usually end up letting my anger get the best of me and end up getting in arguments with people when I should just ignore them. I have decided to start putting people on ignore and trashing threads where the hate mongers hang out. I think it is much better for my health and my peace of mind.

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Response to King_Klonopin (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:26 AM

116. hmm...

Not all atheists are self-righteous ...

(Your post illustrates how often we humans make judgmental assertions, without necessarily being a 'bad person.')

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Response to King_Klonopin (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:31 PM

150. +1

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Response to King_Klonopin (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:23 PM

227. +1

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Response to King_Klonopin (Reply #40)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 03:42 AM

261. Sorry D.I.; I take it all back. The nasty is too much. I GIVE UP!!!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:02 AM

45. Your post made my cry

And I don't cry easy.

The Catholic church was once the backbone of the Democratic party. Although some have switched to Republican, I think the majority of Catholics are still Democrats. We don't all vote anti-abortion candidates. Abortion is only one issue. The church has its teachings about abortion, but they are moral teachings and not political teachings.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:05 AM

46. don't go, whensome of us criticize the Catholic church it's more towards the official church and

leadership and not everyone. similar to when we criticize a country . but i know there will be some that go beyond and make it more personal.

maybe just take a break from DU for a while. but please come back later.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:10 AM

48. I'm Catholic and I just don't see what you see

Good luck to you.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:15 AM

51. Now, I usually don't make 'please don't leave' posts, but in your case I'll make an exception!

I am a devout atheist whose oldest friend is a left-wing Catholic, and who dislikes any broadbrushing of any ethnic or religious group.

I don't care for much of the Catholic hierarchy but don't think it should be taken out on ordinary Catholics.

As an ethnic Jew, I have seen - even on DU - Jews everywhere blamed for all the actions of the Israeli government. I have seen - even on DU, and a lot elsewhere- Muslims everywhere blamed for 9-11 and for the theocratic governments of Saudi Arabia and Iran. I don't think any of this is fair.

Of course, some people see it as anti-Catholic hatred, if anyone criticizes the Pope or disagrees with Catholic beliefs. That is also unfair. But broadbrushing all Catholics is not acceptable. However, most people don't. It's just coming up now because of the recent Papal election; just as antisemitism and Islamophobia seem to increase at times of conflict in the Middle East.

I find your posts interesting, and hope you do not leave.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:16 AM

52. If only people could get so upset over racism and misogyny on DU...

As they do about people not liking their ideas about how to interpret bronze-age philosophy.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:20 AM

53. I hope that you change your mind and stay with us.

I don't fall for this guilt by association crap that occurs here. We are supposed to be an online community supporting, not constantly antagonizing each other because we belong to group A or group B.

I haven't interacted with you frequently, but I've enjoyed a number of your posts and FWIW I don't believe you are pedophile believer or anything other than Drunken Irishman.

I-rish you stay with DU, DI. Happy St. Patrick's Day!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:22 AM

54. Please don't leave.

I don't like the broad brush that people are painting Catholics with. It's disgustingly prejudiced.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:29 AM

55. We have a problem here, but don't go. You haven't left the church even though

you see its faults and sorry to compare the DU community with the church, but in a minor kind of way, it is the same thing.

Stay. I for one will make a commitment to have your back.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:32 AM

57. Hi DIrish.. sorry, you've had to go through this and

for all the other people too. Please, consider taking a break and come back when you've had some time to step away.

Consider the source of those who would have "contempt" for you because of your faith.

You know I will miss you on this board..you've helped me and others through a few uber important Elections and oh, the bushshyster years.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:34 AM

58. It seems to me that many on DU and others in the news trash religion of all sorts

I am not catholic, I am a born again Christian. I have many of the same humanistic values atheists and agnostics have, and I do not believe in slandering religion in general or a particular religion or lack there of specifically. This site is Democratic Underground. To be democratic we have to respect the rights of others to have the faith of their choice or not have faith at all.
I say, recognize that those who do the attacks must not win. You must fight back with the truth and I for one will help you. Have a blessed day.

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Response to daybranch (Reply #58)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:33 PM

230. And brave to say so here. I was too, but have moved away from it. I respect the heart and empathy.

I have stood up for believers, despite my own changes of heart and mind. I use the Ignore, Trash this thead, Trash this forum functions a good deal.

I'm also a firm believer that involvement in government is the peaceful and just that way we as moral individuals can solve problems. And that compromise is no crime of conscience just because of religion or ideology, so long as the goals we share, enshrined in the Democratic platform are enabled.

Glad to meet you here.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:35 AM

59. Please don't leave

Your contributions to DU are appreciated by many including myself. When I first joined in 2008, you were one of the posters I enjoyed reading on a regular basis.

I urge you to reconsider your decision.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:06 AM

61. I'm not a significant member here. I post pretty sporadically.

But as someone who was raised and educated Catholic - baptized, first Communion, first Confession, skipped Confirmation by choice - albeit who has never particularly believed in or practiced the faith, I've sat back and watched the recent storm of vitriol with something between puzzlement and mild dismay. I guess everyone needs a scapegoat...

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:14 AM

62. There are some people around who need to review what it means to be a reactionary.

Reactionaries can only react, usually to some form of perceived authority or a power position. Not everyone who is anti-authoritarian is also a reactionary, but reactionary behaviors depend upon anti-authoritarian traits associated with either the repudiation or acquisition of power. Reactionaries are blind to, or at least not motivate by, potentialities that are non- or a-authoritarian. For them, just about everything is about authority and power, so references to inverted organizational processes don't have any meaning to reactionaries, or they are pointless.

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Response to patrice (Reply #62)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:54 PM

217. Always eloquent. I just call 'em knee jerkers. Dumbassery despite claims of superior intellect.

I've found that most intelligent people are respectful, nuanced and humble. When one can see how much more there is to learn, it's humbling, and not a place to yell down at others from. Always upward, in word and deed.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #217)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:10 PM

222. It's a sad thing, because others agree with them in significant ways, but refuse to support

the right thing for the wrong reasons, or the wrong thing for the right reasons. However, even those problems can be dealt with if ALL of us are honest and strong enough to admit all of it.

Both means and ends are vitally important.

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Response to patrice (Reply #222)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:13 PM

223. It sounds soft, but I find an examination of the heart is needed at times.

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Response to freshwest (Reply #223)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:15 PM

224. The heart and the mind are much more strongly connected than we pretend they are, so . . .

freshwest!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:15 AM

63. I hope you will reconsider...

... I rue the day when politics and religion were conjoined, which I myself noticed in the early 1990s. My brother-in-law and I (Catholic family) really locked horns over it, he a Republican and myself a Democrat. I knew mixing politics and religion would come to no good, being a staunch believer in the separation of church and state. But I had no idea that it would lead to so much hate & incivility. Will miss your words and posts and points of view. DU needs you, Drunk Irishman. I ask you to please reconsider.
Best wishes always and ever!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:15 AM

64. Don't leave

I can't say anything new that others have not already said. I would liberally use Ignore and Trash Thread on anything even remotely touching on religion and the Catholic Church. You won't be missing anything that you have not been exposed to previously. Best wishes to you.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:20 AM

66. The Catholic Church is apart of history and continues on

today. It's an organized religion that is just as part and partial to power and with it scandal.

If it wasn't for their power, they would not have been able to do some of the great atrocities that they have been able to do.

It's similar to the United States of America. We pay our taxes and live under a system that has done lots of good, but lots of evil... And it's done in our names, with our enabling.

But what do many on DU do besides post information, banter around opinions and ideas? Most try to do the part in changing the bad.

I would think most Catjolics would be demanding the changes that they think should be implemented within their faith and religion so that the good shines bright, and the demons are put to bed.

Everyone's got a handful of tea Baggers awaiting marching orders in their back pocket that make it harder to change; keeps the corruption alive and well. And unlike the country, many people here aren't Catholic, so it's not going to have a round robin appeal for help to fix the problems within the religion that you practice and have faith in.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)


Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:33 AM

68. Hope you reconsider. As a heavy not so young Jewish person I know the feeling

 

Seems like if one is Jewish they are blamed for all the Bankers, all the Wall Street, all the foreign problems, all the wars, etc.

All the similiar type code words
AIPAC, etc.

Wish you wouldn't leave, but there is also an ageism thing here.
(much like in the working world too).

The older one gets, the more snide jokes there are.

Same with trying to talk to the "kiddies" about wellness and the jokes about obesity.

Along with all the other racisms and all that are day to day as the Beatles sang "here there and everywhere"

Let alone all the anti-women stuff. WTF how many threads on boobs are there going to be?

Let alone the anti-Gay stuff.

Let alone all the covert real meanings of some of the anti-President stuff.

Seems like some forget what the democratic party is made up of, then and now, and in the future. If you take out all the groups mentioned,think one is down to less than 10% of the party.

As you said,
Imagine a Democratic party without Ted Kennedy and his entire family.
It would be IMPOSSIBLE to do.

If you don't come back, be safe and be well.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #68)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:28 PM

228. +1

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:52 AM

69. I understand how you feel, DI

Some of the religious-bashing here is really vile and despicable and -particularly if you happen to be Catholic or Islamic -I can only imagine what you must feel coming on here sometimes. There are lots of good, open-minded, tolerant people on here but so often they get drowned out by the hateful and hurtful comments, jeers and insults of more than a few.

It's sad that, on a liberal/progressive forums, the hatred is driving you away. It seems that sometimes we have more in common with our Freeper "friends" than we think.

In all your incarnations here, you've been an asset to DU and I've learned much from you. I hope you either reconsider and things get better on here. But the forum will be the worse for having lost you if you do permanently

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:56 AM

70. Many here do not feel that way about Catholics. I don't. We voted to hide an anti-Catholic post.

Don't listen to the few who are rabid anti-Catholics. Most here are not anti-Catholic and certainly accepting of any and all religions, and atheists.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:07 AM

72. oh, for heaven's sake, don't go just because of nasty posters. then they win. why would you

 

want the acceptance of bigots?

so not worth leaving over.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:12 AM

73. So in this day and age we are still fighting over religion

I am appalled that folks can't live and let live. We haven't come very far in the freedom of religious persecution aspect.
It is Muslims, Catholic's, Jews, and who knows what the flavor will be next.

Yes there are bad people in all religions not just the Catholic religion.

No I am not Catholic but have been to Catholic school, mass with Catholic friends, and so forth.
I have 2 Jewish brother in laws that I think the world of.

People need to chill the fuck out and let the courts handle the abuse cases.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:38 AM

74. Ignore their ignorance.

Hey DI, just ignore it. They have no clue...

I grew up Catholic and it was a happy experience for me. I never felt like I was a part of the big machine that is Rome. I simply believed the tenets of the faith (most of them) and practiced as I saw fit. It's remarkably easy to not even give a thought to the hierarchy and to happily go along in the world of belief as the RCC teaches without feeling connected (much less responsible) for what the guys at the top are doing.

But of course many do not realize that and have no interest in figuring it out. Many DUers have their "rosebud", as it were, where the very utterance of the word causes them to morph into hate-spewing zealots on the spot. For some here, "rosebud" is "Catholic church". Poor sods.

You are too good to pay any heed to the likes of those.

Julie


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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:39 AM

75. Don't you dare leave!

A lot of people disagree with me and my opinions here. But it is important for all of us to have opinions and to share them with others. The ones who disagree and who are loud and ugly about it don't matter. The ones on the fence do.

You're important. STAY.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:06 AM

79. we've had our differences

. . . not on your faith or religious choice, though.

Don't let anyone spoil DU for you. Stick around. Hit the ignore button until the board looks like you want it to (I'm probably posting this to myself, lol).

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:07 AM

80. Really?!?! Egotistical much? I doubt this was very hard for you...

boo hoo, people criticize your religion, grow a thicker hide.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #80)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:37 PM

161. Drunken Irishman is a valued member of this community. You can tell by most of the responses.

It is very hard for him to have to say this and if you don't know that you have not been paying attention.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #161)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:44 PM

163. Bleh, just another religious person who values their god above people. n/t

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #163)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:47 PM

164. I put God before people? Please explain Humanist_Activist.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #164)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:50 PM

166. I don't know if you do, personally, I know your religion(assuming you are Christian) demands it...

but perhaps I should have said that DI values what the Church thinks of him more than he does his fellow man. That's probably articulated better.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #166)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:57 PM

168. You and i can argue about religion all day and get nowhere. But where I think you are wrong is that

you said this was not hard for Drunken Irishman. He has always loved being a member of this community and it is very hard for him to leave here. He is a valued member and I hate to see him go.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #166)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:04 PM

173. Even articulated better, this is nothing but projection on your part.

You have no idea how he arrives at his values.

And, I think you really go out of your way to be unpleasant. I have trouble seeing the humanism in that.

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Response to kwassa (Reply #173)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:27 PM

182. Didn't say I was perfect, now did I? As far as the projection, I don't care, I'm more dismissive...

as I am of you.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #163)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 02:38 AM

322. You know absolutely NOTHING about DI.

That's quite obvious. Either that or you don't care about him as a person. Everyone here knows all about him and how he has struggled to take care of his widowed mother. He's a young man - too young to have shouldered that burden but he did it. We know all about his father's difficult life after Vietnam and the effect it had on the family. In spite of it all they loved his dad dearly and his dad loved them. They stayed together and worked through it all as a family, a loving family. DI has shared family photos with us all. We could see both the heartbreak of PTSD and the great love they had for each other.

So don't you EVER say this wonderful young man cares more for his god than he does for people. He has more humanity in his little toe than you've shown here, that's for certain. At least have the decency to feel some shame.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:11 AM

81. You do realize that is a small sub-set of DU, right?

Just like any "flavor of the day", this too will pass. Some times it's sexism, sometimes it's homophobia. We have lost good people because a MINORITY of people on DU are real assholes and post vile stuff. Try to ignore it and hide the threads so that these people do not win.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:22 AM

85. just sit back and read DU for awhile til ur ready to wade back in.

U know some on DU will fight about almost anything that is said. Try to ignore it coz there is still a lot of good info from this site.

Good luck, and hope to see you back.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:23 AM

86. I haven't seen a post yet that directly "attacks" the Catholic

posters. I have seen posts that attack the hierarchy of the Church; and I have seen posts that attack anyone with religious/spiritual beliefs.

I don't care for the hierarchy of the Church; however, I have been told by at least 5 members that somehow that is a "personal attack."

Frankly, I think that's beyond ridiculous. I hope you don't leave.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #86)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:39 AM

88. Here -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2520819

I was on the jury for this one, which was let stand 4-2 (Juror #1).

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Response to Ms. Toad (Reply #88)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:41 AM

89. Thanks. Interesting-

I had not seen that one. My wife and I know several of the Sisters of Mercy nuns in NC who would disagree with this one. Damn.

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Response to JanMichael (Reply #89)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:19 AM

97. I've seen others along that line, as well.

That is just the one I knew I could find quickly, since the jury result was in my inbox.

I could probably troll MIRT for more . . . but I think you may be missing some of the most offensive things which are both said, and left standing.

And - even though I am not Catholic, every year we donate to two groups of Sisters - since my spouse is a recovering Catholic and knows that the nuns who taught her are really struggling to care for their retired members.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:36 AM

87. Civility is in short supply these days, on DU as elsewhere

A couple of days ago, I posted a suggestion that we stop beating each other up. Ironically, it was locked.

Religion is a source of both profound good and profound evil. We should respect that people can be striving for the former even though a handful of church members live in the latter. The same can be said for cold rationality, as well. Any powerful tool can help or harm.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:43 AM

90. Please, no

Don't leave on account of fools. I'll miss your posts and they way you can push through the BS, please stay

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:47 AM

91. Get over yourself.

No one has attacked you or your faith.

Many have rightfully pointed out that your church, like all of them, is guilty of hiding some pretty sick shit. I doubt you directly had anything to do with that.

And speaking as someone who grew up in a religion and finally realized it was nothing more than a means of control, well, your mileage may vary. But it's not about you. It never was.

Also, I haven't posted here in probably more than a month, so haven't been "persecuting" you. My feelings on religion are my own, and apply to my own life. I realize that some of us had it shoved so deeply down our throats we can't ever look at it from another perspective, yet for you to claim that any realistic discussion of it is all about you is completely irrational.

Good day, drama queen.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:49 AM

92. Please, please, do not leave. Just a break, maybe for a week. Please do not leave. nt

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:52 AM

93. I don't get it.

You're willing to leave an online community you've been part of for years because some minority of its members are critical of some other community you identify with.

Yet you're more than willing to stick with your other community even though some minority of its members commit and cover-up sex abuse against children, discriminate against gays and women, etc.



Well, good bye, I guess...

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Response to LAGC (Reply #93)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:27 AM

125. My impression exactly.

nt

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Response to LAGC (Reply #93)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:23 PM

149. Normally I don't respond to GBCW op's.

But your post is spot on. And frankly, the OP has leveled his share of nastiness towards folks who have criticised President Obama and some of his policies.

That said, I hate to see any long time DUer leave. We fight, we disagree. There are trolls which don't deserve the time of day. I hope the OP will just use his ignore list and stick around.

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Response to LAGC (Reply #93)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:58 PM

201. Exactly....

I couldn't have said it any better. The level of hypocrisy and intellectual dishonesty is hard to take.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:04 AM

95. this place has almost had me out the door several times....if you leave, best wishes.

intolerance isn't only a republican trait

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:23 AM

98. i'm sorry

The intolerance of the left is just as ugly as the intolerance of the right.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:35 AM

101. I feel like we are turning the clock back some 80 years.

I am a Catholic and proud of it. We are getting it here from the left and I am getting it from a few conservative Christians on Facebook. One 'friend' goes as far as me being an apologist for the Spanish Inquisition as well. He has been very quickly been 'unfriended'.

The Catholic faith is where I first learned to help the poor. It may have just been pennies in the classroom coffee can for "the missions' but it was an important learning step. The first presidential election I remember was when John F Kennedy defeated Richard Nixon to become the first Roman Catholic president. I was proud of that. I laughed at some of the nuns at my grade school but other nuns were incredibly fine teachers.

In the 1970s I became inactive as for a little while my life was party central. But after that I married the love of my life who is a devout Catholic and I was back in the fold again. Our pastor is a good man. Although we are a little apart on the right to life issue he is not too rigid in his beliefs to listen to you. I've even considered joining the choir. It is one of the best around, the music director knows what he is doing and some of the music is beautiful. We have a new pope now and I'm happy and very interested to see how he will lead the Church and what direction it will take.

Do I draw the curtain on the petophile priests and ex-priests? Absolutely not. I want accountability as quickly as humanly possible. Until these rogue priests are purged and brought to justice and the victims compensated the Church will never fully put this behind them. Other issues I have come at odds with the Church but it is my church warts and all. I am a member of another organization which is non-religious. They never seems to miss a chance to shoot themselves in the foot but I remain with this organization as well.

Barack Obama won two terms as president. In both elections he carried the Catholic vote. It is an important pieces of the puzzle on the road to the White House. In short, Obama could not have won the election without the Catholic vote. Yes, Rick Santorum is a Catholic but so is John Kerry and Joe Biden. Name me an organization, company or group that doesn't have a nut like Santorum. The list would be short.

With the Obama presidency it was my hope that racial, ethnic and religious bigotry would be on the wane. It's sad to say my optimism has been dampened with the events in life, on the news and on DU and Facebook. I do feel like in a way we have turned back the clock some 80 years. I am also sorry for some that have a problem with my Catholic faith. I can't change because I don't want to change.

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Response to Norbert (Reply #101)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:20 PM

207. Well said

Thank you.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:41 AM

104. Fuck them !! I'm Wiccan but was raised Catholic grew up aground Catholics

Even went to three separate Catholic schools. Some of the best and morally developed people I know are Catholic.

These scandals are just as prevalent among the self righteous born again crowd, and in both cases it is not the will nor the inclination of the faithful, it is always about a FEW douchenozzles that because of their douchenozzlry are drawn to power positions and corruption, I was an attractive little boy in a class of all boys and we were guided well and protected by our branch RC church, so much for the epidemic of pedophilia.

Just fuck them, they are wrong!!
If you turn out to be an asshole then you are an asshole, your being Catholic has nothing to do with it!!!

I am a bit of an asshole, most assuredly a prick sometimes, but not because I practice Wicca or was trained initially as a Catholic. It's all me and that is all I will take credit and/or blame for.

We all should judge ourselves by our own actions and how they affect others, those that feel so superior as to judge you or your faith should stop projecting and judge what they see in a mirror.

FUCK THEM
Muslims are not terrorists, a minuscule number of Muslims are terrorists perhaps, but so few as to be negligible.
The same is true across the board if one simply observes truth without prejudice.

The biggest assholes of all are invariably pointing fingers at others in misdirected outrage while ignoring the stench of moral feces that clings to their robes of self righteousness.

Oh. did i mention FUCK THEM? Well just in case I forgot to mention it ..ahem..FUCK THEM!!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:45 AM

105. I'm sorry this happened to you.

I am an atheist but my grandmother was Catholic and I spent time in the church when I was younger. I am fully capable of differentiating the power structure of the church from the everyday good folks who are Catholic.

DU has been very nasty and unwelcoming to Catholics and it has made me feel sad.

It isn't right.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:54 AM

106. I hope that you come back, DI.

I find irony in the fact that some who are overly quick to criticize Catholics for their faith will likely raise a jar or two to celebrate St.(!!!!!) Patrick's Day today.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:07 AM

109. The vast majority of DU wants you here, values you here, respects you here

The vst majority of DUers honor the decisions people make in their personal life, their faith, their lack of faith, whatever, as long as people strive to do good in this world - even when sometimes some of us disagree about what doing good always looks like.

I am reminded on the paradox liberals have always faced around the First Amendment and free speech - how it often ends up that it is leftists belonging to the ACLU that ends up having to defend the rights of American Nazis to parade through our neighborhoods. In some ways the passion that drives those who are strongest in their sweeping condemnation of the Catholic Church rivals that felt by N.R.A. supporters. I say that not to compare the relative morality of those two viewpoints - simply as a matter of fact.

The Catholic Church is capable of evil, just as is ANY institution made up of humans. For those who fail to see that aspect of the Church predominant today then just look back to the Inquisition etc. Recent popes, speaking with what sounds like true grace to my ear, have profoundly apologized for some former mistakes of the Church. No doubt there will be more apologies in the future. Those who feel burnt by what they feel is unforgivable injustice at the hands of the Church are unlikely to be silent, or even polite. But genuine as their viewpoint may be, no one owns the total truth.

You speak elequently about another face of the Catholic Church. Your "free speech" is essential here for all of us who seek deeper understanding - and that is something all of us should seek. I have a thread up now about my own experience working for the Catholic Church. I have met some who work in its name who have moved me beyond words by the awesom beauty of their mission, their courage, and the almost unfathonable to me depth of their convction to serving the least among us. They too are the Catholic Church So are you, and you are one of us.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:13 AM

110. DI, I will miss you very, very much.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:24 AM

115. Do what you've got to do.

You think Catholics are the only ones that get grief on this forum?

Try being an actual Leftist Liberal.

Best to you, friend.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:27 AM

117. Sorry, DI. If You Don't Reconsider, Best Wishes To You. (nt)

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:15 AM

120. Ignore the assholes, and stick around. We need your viewpoint.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:25 AM

123. For comparison, here is the shit gay people endure here, under the guise of 'faith':

Thread title: "Big drop in those who say being gay's a sin, study says."
Here is what A DUer posted:
"Stll consider it a sin. in a certain form
But as one Black pastor pointed out on CNN or one of those.. if one is a Red letter Christian of which I am. Jesus never actually went there. So knowing that the Old Book is a history book and nothing more. Since it's the new book we are to follow. Can't say this out loud much more. Such as I've been told looking at nude significant others isn't an actual sin if neither person is married (gets tricky if she is and she's doing it anyway) (this from a college Professor at a rather right leaning Lutheran college. ) And they considered that less of a sin than being Gay. Many of whom I think are more BI than Gay. Although this seems to be the case more in females than males. (seems to be.. ie only Elton John do I know to be Bisexual. )"

Got anything even close to that about Catholics? Not about Popes, but about regular people? This DU says it is a sin to be me. The post was not hidden, the poster is active.
Anyone say being Catholic is a sin? Of course not.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014364722

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:35 AM

127. Ok. See ya.

Personally, I didn't even know (or care) that you were catholic. You have a cool handle though. "Drunken Irishman". Love it!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:39 AM

129. I'm an agnostic/atheist and I fully agree with everything you said.

The broad brushes used against christians, police officers and men are counterproductive.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:53 AM

132. Please recosider, we need your voice and posts.

I've have also been around DU since 2001 in a couple of different incarnations. I am also Irish Catholic. I view the multitude of bigoted posts as a helpful in identifying members to avoid, or at best be wary of.

Even in this thread the argumentative and bigoted posters don't address the nasty strain of bigotry apparent in some members. They merely pile on addition accusations against the church, its clerics and their actions. Valid issues but more appropriate in threads about the church rather than a thread about the bigoted attitudes of some of DU's members.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 11:54 AM

134. I would like to offer a heartfelt "Go Fuck Yourself"

to everyone on this thread making light of this fine, long-time DUers departure.

You make DU suck.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #134)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:16 PM

206. ++++++ And, I hope every DU Catholic knows they have support here...

I will always do what I can to fight the intolerant, ugly, bigoted faction on DU--no matter their current "shiny" target.

Blaming an individual for an institution's faults is ridiculous.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #134)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:28 PM

243. + 10^10^100 nt

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #134)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 06:00 AM

264. +1

They are exactly the people making DU suck.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #134)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:46 AM

267. Kind of interesting: Go read what you wrote about

Pope Benedict in April of 2005. You pretty much wrote "oh well, he is old." Why the big change in tone?

Yes, I know you are Catholic...but, the only change I have seen over the past 7-8 years is that the pedophile stuff has come to light.... which seems to be gettig cleared up now.

btw...I know you refuse to believe this- but, the only thing I meant by my thread is that I am sorry-- I hate to see a new hard right Pope-- I hope he lays off the Sisters of Mercy, the non-heteros, etc...but, I have my doubts.

Not sure why your tone has changed so much though....you had real, honest questions and concerns then-- now you just seem to be writing that you think anyone who questions this decision is somehow blasting DU Catholic members. I had not seen that (until someone pointed it out to me in this thread), but I sure as hell wasn't.

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Response to WilliamPitt (Reply #134)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:39 AM

315. Seconded, Will

Scorpion pit, these days.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:01 PM

135. Yours is a very impassioned post, but I am one of those who question embracing a religion

that has , for decades, shuffled priests from parish to parish because they can't stop impregnating the flock or they can't keep their hands off of children...The church you so deeply love does not remove the priests, the church does not report them to the police, they hide them within the very church that preaches rape, adultery, and bearing false witness is a sin...
How does one so strongly support ongoing heinous crimes against women and children within the church?

Wouldn't you want to direct your impassioned firmly-held Catholic belief and publicly fight to unearth these vile people and clean up the church that preaches the loving word of God while abusing innocent children rather than leaving DU?

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:22 PM

137. I would be sad to see you go.

Please reconsider.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:37 PM

140. I would never continue to support an organization if I found out

 

that the organization knowingly covered up child sex abuse or any abuse. I would never join an organization that spoke out against women, homosexuals, or contraception. They would never get a dime of my money. Any decent person would do the same.

Why get so upset if anyone says that?

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Response to Apophis (Reply #140)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:11 PM

177. That you choose the word "organisation" makes it obvious that you haven't thought this through, N.T.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #177)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:00 PM

202. It's an organization...

and you have a choice to leave it. Religion doesn't get a pass, but some people are so used to the historically privileged status of religion on here I guess.

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #202)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:23 PM

209. +1

 

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Response to MellowDem (Reply #202)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:31 PM

237. Yes, and no, respectively.

Yes, the catholic church *is* an organisation. But that's entirely irrelevant. What matters when judging the actions of catholics is not what you or I believe, but what they believe.

Most catholics believe that the catholic church is God's representative on earth; the most important thing in the world. I don't know how widely believed "extra ecclesiam nulli salas" is nowadays - I think not very - or whether it's an official doctrive, but certainly most catholics believe that they are ordered by the supreme being to remain in the church, no matter how temporally corrupt it becomes.

One should always separate judgements of ethics from judgements of fact. I don't share catholic belief about matters of fact, but I think it's utterly obvious that if those factual teachings *were* correct then there would be an overwhelming moral obligation to stay in, support and try to reform the catholic church, no matter what.

Talking about the catholic church as organisation makes it clear that you're talking about what you think catholics should do if they weren't actually catholics, rather than thinking about what actual catholics who believe god might think.

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Response to Donald Ian Rankin (Reply #237)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:18 PM

308. No, I'm talking about what people should do...

and for one, IMHO nobody should be involved with a bigoted organization that says it's the representative of a perfect, unproven, unproveable being simply BECAUSE. They should question things. They should use critical thinking skills. Otherwise, yes, I'll question why they are still a member of such an organization, and if the reason they give is, "just because", I can criticize the way they come to conclusions. It's a discussion board. Religion doesn't get a free pass.

I mean really, what a horribly dangerous set up. You're indoctrinated from birth into an organization that you can never leave? I can criticize this way of thinking, and it's not bigotry.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:38 PM

141. I'm Eastern Orthodox and have almost quit several times.

I stopped hanging out in the religion forum because the attacks got so personal and nasty. I mostly lurk these days after so many trolls have posted so much venom and poison here day in, day out. Teachers are attacked, those of faith are attacked, our LGBTQ sisters and brothers are attacked, women are attacked...the list goes on and on, and it's disgusting.

I've tried telling myself that it's because there are some here who are paid right-wing trolls or just plain right-wing trolls, but that doesn't make their poison any less dangerous. I remember the days when we were fairly united in trying to stop the wars, trying to get Bush out of the White House, trying anything to change the direction our country is headed in, but those days are gone. Now, it's Dem against Dem as some think the direction we're headed in is just fine as long as a Dem is at the wheel while the rest of us see too many parallels to Bush and what we marched and protested against.

When it gets bad, I walk away for days, coming back to lurk only and get my news. It's definitely not a safe place anymore.

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Response to knitter4democracy (Reply #141)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:54 PM

144. Things have changed around here.

It's Animal Farm now.

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Response to jsr (Reply #144)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:56 PM

145. Apt metaphor.

Some here really are more equal than others. *sighs*

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Response to jsr (Reply #144)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:00 PM

146. people have become completely intolerant of anyone different than they are

It is as much on display here on DU as anywhere. We like to claim we are more tolerant than the republicans, but really we aren't. We're just intolerant of different things, and we use the same tactics republicans use. We become bullies because we think we can make people think and do what we want. It is really sad.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #146)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:31 PM

186. We are intolerant of racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. I see nothing wrong with that. n/t

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #186)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:43 PM

213. I'm not getting in an argument with you. I've seen some of your posts. I think I'm just going

to put you on ignore.

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Response to jsr (Reply #144)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:50 PM

196. things in general have changed in people attitudes towards the Catholic Church

I felt mildly negative when I was a kid because I know they keep women from reproductive freedom, more so later- when they condemned gays.
These days, I shake my head that the membership is not completely up in arms, demanding change after the pedophillia scandals broke. It;s an awful time for the church- and it should be. That is what is reflected here.
I WISH I was seeing that they are, and would feel better about it if I thought there was any movement to force change.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #196)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:46 PM

300. Most are up in arms.

They tend to keep in in the doors of the church and not discuss it openly, though some do. Most Catholics I know are entirely furious and can barely talk about it without yelling.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:02 PM

147. so why the missive?

 

it's just a fucking website.

in the big scheme of things, no one really cares.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #147)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 03:15 PM

279. And in 100,000 years no one will even remember

But in the meantime, we do care and DU is one of the best websites around.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:03 PM

148. Just ignore the fuckhead bigots, DI.

 

It works for me.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:41 PM

153. Hey buddy, I'm Catholic as well and I've been appalled by this board lately

Lots of raw hatred bereft of insight; the opposite of what you have always brought to the table. Take a break, we'll be bearable again for you, hopefully. Your posts have always been a breath of fresh air; rational, perceptive and soulful. I'll miss you.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:37 PM

160. Check out the new Interfaith group - a sanctuary for the discussion of religious issues.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:02 PM

170. No no no...you fail to understand what is going on

META was closed down and now all the people with huge outrage issues had to come to GD to post. I know, embarrassing to say the least, but that was why the forum was hidden from public eyes. You are just an innocent victim in all this, don't believe that they speak for the majority of DUers, cuz they don't.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:02 PM

171. Please do not go!

We need your voice here and I would hate to see you leave.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:06 PM

174. Well, if you been here that long then you know we have our fair share of assholes too

so quitting is never a solution (unless it's a vice like smoking, drinking excessively, etc)

forums and message boards require a thick skin and open mind

If you still have either.............stay

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:10 PM

176. "I've been a member here, in a couple incarnations, since it opened in 2001."

Are you saying that you've been banned in the past?

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Response to JVS (Reply #176)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:28 PM

184. I know I was, during the great LGBT purge, wait, are we supposed to talk about that yet?

I changed usernames, and IP addresses in that time.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #184)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:31 PM

187. I'm glad you're back! - and glad I missed that bit of ugly.

We lost a lot of great liberal Dems. A very sad time for DU.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #187)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:33 PM

189. The thing that sucked was becoming a noob again.

Oh well. Live and learn.

I'm still fiery and controversial, so that hasn't changed, LOL.

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Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #189)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:35 PM

190. I bet I liked you just as much back then, as I do now.

just a guess!

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #190)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:43 PM

194. LOL, I'm not here to make friends, that's just a bonus side effect.

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Response to JVS (Reply #176)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:54 PM

199. Remember the name change after the 08 election? nt

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:55 PM

200. I'm sorry. There's a lot of hysterical nonsense around here these days.

I'm still here but not much these days, seems intelligent conversation isn't very popular. The sad part of it is - people like you, and me, and the other long timers, have drifted because the level of discourse on DU has devolved. I suppose it's only the natural state of things as DU grew in numbers and became more lax with allowing posts which, in my opinion, never would have been acceptable in the past.

I was raised Catholic although I don't go to church anymore, and my family is Catholic. It hurts me too to read what people have been saying here. It's the same black and white thinking that the other side employs.

I will miss reading your posts. Take care.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:22 PM

208. Don't go

Please?

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 04:50 PM

215. Some of the anti catholic postings here have been beyond the pale

I, and more than a few others, have said it.

Some folks need an education.

Keep in touch man.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:04 PM

221. I love the drunken Irish

Don't leave us on St. Pattie's day.
I don't care for any religion it is not just Catholics.
Sorry this place has been unfriendly of late. It will die down.
I don't think it was meant to be personal.

Don't leave. Please.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:23 PM

226. I am sorry.

I grew up Catholic as well. I am sad to see you've made this decision.

I've been struggling with a lot of these ideas myself. I am trying to stay, to keep the conversation full of variety. But, if you think you have to do something, that is up to you.

Again, sorry. Peace to you.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:08 PM

231. I hope you decide to stay. The anti-Catholic bigotry is disgusting.

And I'm not even Catholic. But I was disgusted how threads started by Catholics excited over the new Pope turned into "Nice- You support that kidnapper?". Yes, I believe in speaking out when Catholics or any other group do wrong, but why would the selection of a new Pope cause such seething hatred and bigotry? Sad to say, but I've always sort of noticed an anti-religion vibe from a very vocal group here. Come here on Christmas and see all the "Lol- Stupid Christians celebrate the birth of their zombie today" threads. I also believe there's some sort of divide-and-conquer going on with this board recently. The controversy about holding doors, and now posting threads to make Catholics feel unwelcome. I notice it. Just- stay here, keep your voice. Do not let them win.

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Response to richmwill (Reply #231)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:17 PM

233. What is disturbing

is the lazy guilt-by-association nonsense, and the crazy demands that Catholic DUers leave their church. And yes, there is a strategy behind it.

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Response to jsr (Reply #233)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:14 PM

240. Yes I could not find the right words. Guilt-by-association is what has been happening here.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:13 PM

232. I will often click on a post just because I see you have put it up.

As another Irishman I hate to hear you are going... Please reconsider.

Hope your Saint Patrick's day is better than yesterday was.
ADW

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:19 PM

235. Have not been in the same threads

with you before. But you sound genuine and are not the intelligent kind of person who should be leaving. I do understand though. There are a couple of insensitive patronizing assholes in this thread that I can see who are the cause. I guess what they say is not enough for them to be ousted because we need them here to remind the rest what we do not want to be. So if you leave, here is hoping it is not for long and if it is, do not take their rude and insensitive manners to heart for very long.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:35 PM

238. Hey Irish. Take DU break if you must,

but you will be here longer than those who are rude to and insulting to you. My ignore list usually grows at the time of certain issues. I find within months that those who made me put them on the list are no longer on DU, posting privileges revoked status. So take a break and check back.

Happy St. Paddy's Day, regardless.

Have a pint for me.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:55 PM

239. Please don't leave. I'm with you 100%

If I can repost a sentence from your comment?

I am a proud a liberal and a proud Democrat. I'm also a Catholic and I embrace my religion because it's who I am and where I come from.

I need you.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:24 PM

241. Is there still room for Catholics among rank-and-file Dems?

Of course there is.

I hope you reconsider.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:27 PM

242. Don't leave, most of us don't see it that way. nt

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 07:52 PM

244. i am sorry drunken irish that civility does not have a fore front on du. i do not like the

ugliness of anti religion. the ugliness of anti gun. the ugliness of anti feminism.

it seems that the popular or larger number rules, and others are crushed in the ugliness.

i am not catholic. i am not religious. i get the issues on both sides and there is good and right on bother sides. it should be in respect.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:12 PM

245. I notice that you mention ignore ZERO times.

If free speech offends you, you have the right to ignore it.

Otherwise,

Where will you go? Where will there be no bad people?

Nowhere on earth!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:13 PM

247. Don't leave. Just use "Ignore". A lot, if necessary. n/t

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Response to harris8 (Reply #247)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:18 PM

249. I seem to spend half my time trashing threads, but hey if it keeps my blood pressure

under control and keeps me happy then I'll use the trash and ignore buttons as much as necessary. It makes me sad to think there are so many angry, hateful people in the world and even right here on DU, but hey that's life I guess. The best I can do is ignore the hate and try to foster love.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #249)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:40 PM

258. Exactly! You think being a Catholic here is difficult? Try being someone who likes his guns!

Ignore and trash are the only way to keep your sanity here. Once upon a time, DU was a place for rational discussion of various issues. Since then, the number of posters/members, has grown quite large. You need to filter out the assholes. Many people here are so pc police that I think they may really be trolls. Some of them sound so crazy left that they sound like freepers do.

Look, I'm an athiest but if you find comfort in a form of spirituality I respect that. My wife considers herself a Christian. I'm O.K. With that. Have been for about 27 years. If you have any grasp on the vastness of this universe, you are a fool to think that nothing is going on out there that we don't understand.

I guess what I'm saying is, don't leave. Just use ignore and trash more often. Not everybody has an opinion that matters, and, frankly, some people here are just fucking with us.

I've been here a long time. I've made some good friends. I've also put a lot of assholes on ignore. One of the things I love about this place is that, with a couple of clicks, you can remove assholes from your reality. Wish it was that easy in real life!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:15 PM

248. I don't think you should let anyone run you off -- or any group of people

If all the Catholics leave just as you plan to do, who will be left to defend the church? I heard someone say on cable today that the problem that is the limelight for discussion does not apply to many in the church. They adhere to their vows. This sentence is not repeated often enough.

Just about every church has problems. I know mine did and to a certain extent still does. But I am not part of the problem. I did leave for awhile, but now I am going back. There are a lot of people in my denomination that are not associated with the problem, and that is what I hold on to.

I think it is noble when one can stick up for his or her church in face of so much adversity.

Your tenure here alone should convince you to stay. I hope you reconsider. Please reconsider.

Sam

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 08:42 PM

250. Hey DI

Take a break, we need you here.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:02 PM

252. Spare us the drama

 

You'll be back, and you know it.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:03 PM

253. I like you and don't want you to leave, but...

We choose what we support. In this case, could you as easily stay at DU and instead leave the catholic church? If not, why? Because members of DU have done a lot less horrible things than the Church has, yet you have no problems criticizing all of us and leaving. What makes your church, that has actually commited crimes and not just snarked, different?

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:41 PM

254. Sorry this happened to you.

I don't know you at all but do hate to see people run off over this. I can totally relate to everything you just said. I don't even know what your politics are but it's nuts to run Catholics off of DU.

Apparently some people think a religion is something you can just drop anytime you want just because it has major problems. They don't realize that Church is part of what connects us to our families and communities. And it's part of who we are.

People don't always just abandon their community because they don't like some things about it.

Consider then Senator Obama's remarks on why he wouldn't disavow Rev. Jeremiah Wright

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy... Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely ó just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed... I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother ó a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe. These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.


I think Obama did a good job of explaining that. Church, Catholic church is a center of family and community life for millions of people, good bad and ugly. It's where we go for funerals. I hope people will criticize on issues but not get personal against other DUers. At the same time I understand some people who aren't Catholic simply can't understand the apparent hypocrisy of of attending a church that is against gay people and abortion, while claiming to be a liberal. And so we have something of a tragedy here.




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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:50 PM

255. I think taking a break is a better idea

I've been posting on message boards since around 2000. I mostly frequent a private board that was a spin off of a public board. It used to have much more political talk than it does now, however. It was a board that had repubs and dems, so some of the discussions/debates could get pretty lively and at times insulting. Sometimes I just had to take a break. Sometimes I just lost my posting mojo and didn't feel like going on the board. Other times I would be so disgusted by a conversation, I would stay away for awhile.

I don't know you but have seen your name often. You say you have friends here, so I think you should simply take a breather. Things are pretty volatile right now in so many areas of our society. Maybe when things calm down a little or when summer comes and people become less crabby and overall happier with sunshine and fun, it will be more agreeable for you here. This whole country needs an attitude adjustment, IMO.

I always hate to see people leave message boards or feel they are being driven away.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:10 PM

256. I'm sorry to see you leave, but to be frank...

...I have no use for religion of any sort, so if you view Catholicism as your most important defining characteristic, then I'll likely call you on that someday. Stay if you want to have conversations with like-minded liberals. Good riddance if you want us to accept your religious delusions without question or challenge.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #256)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 05:57 AM

263. Classy.

Another for the ignore wastebin.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #256)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 02:27 PM

277. Wow, just wow!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 10:21 PM

257. No Need To Leave

Hello DI

Been to an Irish wake or wedding lately?

But seriously. I am a newbie here, humble and certainly with no OP's to boast of. I'm too shy for that.

But YOUR posts have often roused me to circling a waved fist high above my head.

There is always, everywhere, dissent against any and all religion.

Illegitimi non carborundum.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 02:06 AM

260. I'm Catholic,

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 11:13 AM - Edit history (1)

Who gives a care what those smug jerks think? They have no power or right to judge. Come on, man, shake it off and hang around. We need you. You are part of what is good about DU. Dont let them divide and conquer.

Aloha DI

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:35 AM

266. Don't leave...

I don't believe all Catholics are a "supporter of pedophilia" nor are all DUers anti-Catholic bigots.

Please re-consider

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 10:41 AM

268. Man I'm a southern white Christian male....Some have gunned for me for 11 years now....

Who gives a fuck? Giving up = they win. In my case they will never win because I really don't give a shit what they think or say. Look me up when you come back-we'll be waiting.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 10:54 AM

269. Don't paint yourself into a corner, man.

Take a break and come back siwnging.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 11:41 AM

273. I certainly have been negative toward some Catholic dogma and the upper leadership of the church

but I'm sure as hell not going to attack YOU. Anything I've said about the new Pope based on his statements prior to being elected, to the previous as well as current church dogma, isn't aimed at individuals here at DU. I am fully aware you may not share some of the church dogma around contraception, gay marriage, etc.

I'll rhetorically savage only those that deserve it. Those that have earned it. I have no fight with you. I hope you reconsider leaving. I'm sorry that the alert/mod system has allowed personal attacks that make you personally feel attacked, stand. They shouldn't.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 12:11 PM

274. wth

I hope you reconsider. You're loved here. The majority of DUers, even the nonreligionists, do NOT support the bigotry that has been rampant here. Please, reconsider.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 02:21 PM

276. We're not saying you are our enemy.

We're saying that your Church leadership is our enemy. And they are. The recently testified in front of the U.S. Congress to limit contraception. As a woman, I take that very personally.

I don't understand why some DU Catholics don't get that we are angry at the policies the leadership is pushing, and has pushed, for decades and centuries.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #276)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 02:31 PM

278. They do get angry and I think they fight to change the church from within.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #278)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 06:44 PM

291. Fat chance of that happening

Sorry but I just see it as hopeless. Best to just leave as I did. Didn't you once say that you also left yourself?

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Response to ButterflyBlood (Reply #291)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 06:47 PM

292. I left at 18 years old but it was more that I found an episcopal parish that I liked.

If people want to stay and work within the church I say more power to them.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 03:39 PM

280. DI, you and I have been at odds for years

DI, you and I have been at odds for years ever since Candidate Obama's FISA vote however, I implore you not to leave DU over this latest ugliness.

Catholics consistently get shat on here but we're not usually the "group du jour" for demonization. This week it's been our turn in the #1 slot. If anything, we should be grateful to be reminded what it feels like.

Ignore the haters. Use your ignore list and trash thread liberally.

The majority of people making the vile comments were already on my ignore list for trolling other subjects, especially the Trayvon Martin threads, and being nasty beyond belief. This week their new target is Catholics because that's where the attention they so desperately crave is. Give them no importance. Give them no attention except to alert for their bigotry.

There are plenty of honest, decent Liberals here, Catholics included, criticizing the Church and more power to them for demanding accountability. Now those other fellas who crawl out of some slimy woodwork, that no one has ever seen in the many threads of social justice or political accountability that make DU, are meaningless nothings. Would you really let such assholes get to you?

I've actually had to log out, to read DU unfiltered by my ignore list, to see the hate. It was appalling but what I noted is that the overwhelming majority of the assholes making comments like "If you tithe to the Catholic Church, you support pedophilia" were ignored troll assholes before any of this ever came up.

Make liberal use of the ignore list and don't let a few loud pesky ignorant jerks drive you away.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 04:06 PM

281. As a fellow Irishman and ex-catholic

All I can say is...time to rethink religion and become an atheist

It's the only honest way

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Response to amuse bouche (Reply #281)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:50 PM

301. The only honest way I think not.

This post is very insulting.

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Response to hrmjustin (Reply #301)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:56 PM

302. Oh I disagree

Supporting a group that hides pedophiles, is anti equality for gays and women?

Now that's insulting and criminal and bigoted and pure hypocrisy for a Dem

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Response to amuse bouche (Reply #302)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:58 PM

303. Are you saying that remaining a Roman Catholic you are not a real democrat or liberal?

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 04:23 PM

282. It's as though we've decided to force a benign host to adapt to the vulgar parasites.

Watching the old-timers walk away due to the conscious incivility of many members is depressing. It's as though we've decided to force a benign host to adapt to the vulgar parasites.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 04:40 PM

285. Dude, just use your Trash Thread button

and your Ignore List - you'll be surprised at how much more fun DU becomes (and It's therapeutic to trash a thread)...

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 06:09 PM

289. I hope you don't leave

I think something DU Catholics have to consider is that there are some people who were in the church, were deeply hurt by it, and are now so disgusted the thought of being a part of it just turns their stomach. At least that's how I feel. That can manifest itself in ugly ways, but it's important to try hard to understand each other, since we can be on completely different wavelengths.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 07:11 PM

294. Don't Let The Jerks Get You Down... Stay.






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Response to WillyT (Reply #294)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:09 PM

307. Yeah! Listen to WillyT!

Well said!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 07:55 PM

297. I'm sorry to see you leave, but I don't blame you.

I've been startled at the almost gleeful vehemence with which people have attacked the Catholic church and Catholics themselves this last week, and the disrespect they've shown toward individual DU members.

Almost all of us are part of some imperfect organization or another-- our church, the Boy Scouts, the Democratic Party, the U.S. military, the federal government. We've donated to and voted for candidates whose positions we didn't always agree with. We do so because we thought that the organization at its core is well-intentioned, and that it will try to improve itself over time.

For some reason, though, some imperfect groups are okay, and others are not. It was okay to vote for Obama in 2008 even though he said God didn't support gay marriage, and to support the Democratic Party despite this. However, it's apparently not okay to belong to a church whose leadership has the same opinion.

I understand that everyone will have their own way of deciding whether they think the good outweighs the bad in any group. But there's respectful debate, and there's simply derogatory shouting. Things have just gotten way out of hand.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:00 PM

304. When I mentioned Biden's Catholicism here, one response was:

"I wonder how much the rest of his brain is also wacko"

and another response was that Biden is "giving religion the lip service it takes to get elected..... You've got tons of unwashed masses who believe in sky beings...sometimes folks just have to play along to get votes".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2505954

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2506336

I fully understand how DU makes Catholics uncomfortable. Obviously Joe Biden for one would not stick around here.



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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:01 PM

305. Anti-religious bigotry is disgusting and unacceptable. n/t

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Response to duffyduff (Reply #305)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 10:46 AM

329. So are child rape and the enabling of child rape

as well as rampant homophobia and sexism, and those who support and defend organizations that practice them.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:07 PM

306. What a loss! I'll always be a fan of yours, Drunken Irishman.

For what's it's worth, and just so you know, you made and make a difference in this world.

When I was backpacking through South America, I ran out of money and the Jesuits took me in for over a month and let me live there free and let me sit with them during meals. They lived their religion and I will always admire them and remember them with love until the day I die

Those Jesuits delivered babies, vacinated children, fed the poor, counseled couples, and took me on some of their trips in their jeeps. They had a poster of Che in their dining hall.

My favorite Governor ever, Jerry Brown, studied to be a Jesuit and later worked with Mother Teresa.

Hope you wil reconsider. I dropped off the map for a year because of the homophobia that thankfully was finally addressed.

I read some of the outrageous broad brush posts here and found them tragically pathetic and hardly "liberal" at all. I posted in several threads my support for my Catholic DU sisters and brothers including in one thread by William Pitt, another Catholic and a great guy, too.

Here's a very heartfelt hug for you.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 10:24 PM

311. What a dumb thing to do. Leave because some folks don't like you or your religion. Boo HOO!

Who cares what pixels on a screen think. I've been attacked for all sorts of things, there have been threads which insult my heritage, my sex, my religion, my upbringing, the part of the nation I live in and on and on and on.

All those intolerant idiots who stereotype folks and lump them together are just that idiots. They are not worth the trouble it took you to write the OP.

Do what you must, but leave behind your stapler. I may need it later.

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Tue Mar 19, 2013, 04:20 AM

312. DI, I am so sorry to read this. I keep fighting the bigots, but it's not working.

Every day that I come here I question all over again why I ever came back. It's exciting -- but so is a scorpion pit.

I know you and I will meet in a better place, so to speak, and I'm going to mosey on over there now... Until we meet again

Hekate

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 12:04 AM

321. Get back here now!

I've enjoyed your posts over the years especially around election time.

don't leave!

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Original post)

Wed Mar 20, 2013, 03:24 PM

326. This happens every day on every site!

You can go ahead and leave this site, which is one of the best sites, but you'll always run into people who do not agree with you. Works both ways, you know. People on the Internet can be mean and nasty. That's the human way these days (unfortunately). I've grown a thick skin. Anyway, good luck to you.

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