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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhy do people defend the actions of infiltrators?
Okay, so two things I learned this week:
1. People who take stuff they don't own and burn it are malevolent infiltrators and provacateurs.
2. Taking stuff and burning it is perfectly fine because:
(a) it is protected by the First Amenment, and/or
(b) other people have done bad things.
So, if it was okay to take a flag from City Hall and burn it, why blame provocateurs?
Is the claim here "people are infiltrating OWS and doing stuff we support"?
dionysus
(26,467 posts)time to
it's funny, isn't it? some of the folks who always accuse people of "blindly cheerleading" something... seem to be blindly cheerleading something...
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)I guess all politics is local, right down to the grudges.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)...and add butter.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)but the people who are riding it to the funeral they've planned for the movement are. That's my claim.
SammyWinstonJack
(44,129 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)And maybe I'm conflating things, but there seems to be a logical disconnect.
I'm not asking if the people who did it were "anti-OWS". It just seems that if it was a defensible and legitimate thing to do, then why blame it on some "anti-OWS" infiltrators.
a simple pattern
(608 posts)It can be both defensible and legitimate, and be a stunt likely to be pulled by infiltrators because it does not play well in Peoria.
(and by "in Peoria" I mean "with idiots who care more about the destruction of a symbol than about the destruction of the thing symbolized."
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I mean, idiots get all upset over cross burnings too.
a simple pattern
(608 posts)They love them some Jesus, too. What's your point?
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I come here to exchange ideas. Some of them are pointless.
The First Amendment allows you to burn a flag, burn a cross, make and buy pornography, wear a Nazi uniform, cuss, and engage in all sorts of things that are guaranteed to piss people off.
That one can do these things is not, by itself, a reason to do them.
a simple pattern
(608 posts)I don't think these things are all equivalent, though. Burning a flag can have different meanings; burning a cross means one thing only. Nobody lights up one of those things to protest the sorry state of religion these days.
I am still not convinced that the Occupiers burned the flag. There was a great big show of kettling and mass arrests, but the cops stand there and watch these guys and don't arrest them? Very suspicious.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)They came and told everyone to leave and everyone left. That was well into the event. I don't know why people keep making this claim.
a simple pattern
(608 posts)then the people who had just vandalized City Hall were asked to leave.
Makes sense to me.
pintobean
(18,101 posts)I think they were given invitations to the Policeman's Ball.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)renie408
(9,854 posts)Why would this past weekend kill the movement? I mean, even if it turned out that it really was OWS people who stole the flag and burned it, that wouldn't change the fact that I support the movement. It just makes me think that a few people got carried away and did something they shouldn't have. There are thousands and thousands of people involved in this protest. Even if you take all of the Oakland Occupy movement, it is just a small part of the whole.
And why would anybody HERE want to end OWS? I am not trying to be naive, I just don't get that whole sentiment. I just don't think people should steal, trespass or vandalize to make a point.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)it's framed somehow as obama vs OWS, even though it isn't.
so it somehow twists into DU inside baseball of obama supoporters must be against OWS and vice versa...
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)I try not to pigeonhole people.
Some people approach a discussion for the purpose of simply categorizing others as some "type" of person. I find very few people to be a "type", and most folks tend to be individuals with all sorts of mixes of experiences, opinions, and points of view.
The problem with lumping everyone else in with some category or another is really not useful. It is a way of avoiding engagement rather than engaging them - of ending conversations instead of finding any benefit to them.
2pooped2pop
(5,420 posts)I don't think we need to continue to explain the existance of provacatuers to the naysayers any longer. They either understand about them and are just trying to stir shit up, or they are dumber than shit themselves. Provacatuers are not a new thing. We know the intentions of Occupy and we know it is an advantage to those who would like to see Occupy fail, to make it appear violent.
Tough fucking shit to any who are anti Occupy. I consider them anti-American.
Not you Union, but those who look for anythig shitty to post about it. I'm sure they will start correcting the grammar of the Occupiers soon too. Nit picky little brats.
For me, Occupy will have to burn down the whole damned city to make me take a stand against them. They are standing against those who have more or less burnt down this whole damned country. They get a shit load of leeway from me.
(not that I want to see any shit, just that shit won't shoo me away)
So if Occupiers burned the flag, so fucking what? Once Palin wrapped herself in one, it needed a good cleaning by fire.
If provacatuers burned the flag, status quo.
randome
(34,845 posts)But there are quite a few 'anti-stupid-stunt' people.
Stupid stunts like bragging to the Oakland police that they going to take over a building.
Way to fight the Establishment!
Rex
(65,616 posts)Sad to watch.
renie408
(9,854 posts)steal and vandalize stuff. I wasn't about to point out that some people are covering both sides of the argument.
ScreamingMeemie
(68,918 posts)I do not support the desecration, or stealing of, private property or monuments of public pride in the name of the movement. We recently visited Dallas as a side trip to dropping my dad off at the airport. It brought tears to my eyes to see writing (what appears to be permanent because I could not wipe or wash it off) on the base of the JFK Memorial. That said, I believe it is a small number of people and not the movement on a whole.
renie408
(9,854 posts)Texasgal
(17,029 posts)whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)People who don't claim it was infiltrators and don't care that a flag was burned either way. It's a tempest in a tea pot. Let's keep our eyes on the prize and get back to business.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Some other dude did it, but it needed to be done.....
apocalypsehow
(12,751 posts)something wrong, or criminal, or just plain stupid must be an "provocateur" or "infiltrator." During the French Revolution, they kept the guillotines humming on just such suppositions, and with just as flimsy or non-existent of evidence as is bouncing around DU now about some kind of "cointelpro" being behind anything someone associated with OWS might be doing that looks bad, like burning American flags.
sudopod
(5,019 posts)Christians 9001
Athiests 0
The Bible is true because it says so right in it!
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)And if they are infiltrators, because I defend their protected speech, I'm not showing any sort of double standard.
uncle ray
(3,153 posts)i call for the same punishment of the flag burners as the pepper-spray cop.
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid