HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » What they don't tell you ...

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 07:16 PM

What they don't tell you about FL sinkholes. In 2010 growers pumped a billion gallons a day

during the extended freezes here. They don't seem to be mentioning that at all. The Seffner sinkhole making the news is in the strawberry-growing area, only 10 miles from Plant City.

They don't mention that homeowners in 2010 were told to leave their homes because the strawberry growers were going to be pumping to spray their crops in the next few days. They were waiting on evaluations from their insurance. No changes have been made since 2010 that I can find.

Here are a bunch of links I accumulated in 2010, plus the personal story of a man who lost his home.

Homeowner loses home to sinkhole. Told to move out as strawberry fields start pumping again.

One homeowner has been waiting on their insurance to determine the status of their home. Last week the company that was supposed to analyze the depth of the sinkhole refused to go there because they feared their equipment would sink into the ground.

This week they heard from the Southwest Water Management District (SWIFTMUD) that they needed to vacate their house at once.

Why? The strawberry growers might start pumping the aquifer again.


More about that long freeze.

Plant City area strawberry growers pumped billions of gallons of water daily for 11 days.

BROOKSVILLE ó Farmers in Hillsborough and Polk counties pumped nearly 1 billion gallons of water a day out of the aquifer during the 11-day cold snap this month, causing 85 reported sinkholes in the region and about 700 complaints of dried-up or damaged residential wells, according to figures released Tuesday by the Southwest Florida Water Management District.

That 1 billion gallon figure is 16 times the normal average permitted quantity of 60 million gallons a day that the farmers can use. It's 10 times the combined 103 million gallons a day that St. Petersburg and Tampa residents use. It's enough water to fill up more than 15,000 Olympic swimming pools.


At that time in 2010 they knew more sinkholes were coming.

During that time Plant City alone declared 11 homes uninhabitable, and they were watching 35 others.

The Seffner sinkhole inside that home is tragic. But Florida officials know that sinkholes will keep happening. There is no indication they intend to stop one of the major causes.




93 replies, 15814 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 93 replies Author Time Post
Reply What they don't tell you about FL sinkholes. In 2010 growers pumped a billion gallons a day (Original post)
madfloridian Mar 2013 OP
DonCoquixote Mar 2013 #1
madfloridian Mar 2013 #2
hedgehog Mar 2013 #6
L0oniX Mar 2013 #63
madfloridian Mar 2013 #87
alp227 Mar 2013 #3
Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #4
TexasTowelie Mar 2013 #47
Heather MC Mar 2013 #53
KatyMan Mar 2013 #59
elehhhhna Mar 2013 #78
Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #5
Raine1967 Mar 2013 #7
KoKo Mar 2013 #8
madfloridian Mar 2013 #46
L0oniX Mar 2013 #65
Sancho Mar 2013 #9
L0oniX Mar 2013 #64
Sancho Mar 2013 #72
L0oniX Mar 2013 #75
paleotn Mar 2013 #70
Augiedog Mar 2013 #10
Mr.Bill Mar 2013 #13
Curmudgeoness Mar 2013 #11
Little Star Mar 2013 #18
Curmudgeoness Mar 2013 #24
CrispyQ Mar 2013 #58
paleotn Mar 2013 #74
quakerboy Mar 2013 #86
Tempest Mar 2013 #38
erronis Mar 2013 #88
niyad Mar 2013 #12
HiPointDem Mar 2013 #14
madfloridian Mar 2013 #20
HiPointDem Mar 2013 #21
HiPointDem Mar 2013 #29
DirkGently Mar 2013 #15
Little Star Mar 2013 #17
madfloridian Mar 2013 #26
Little Star Mar 2013 #32
mbperrin Mar 2013 #16
Catherine Vincent Mar 2013 #23
madfloridian Mar 2013 #39
Robb Mar 2013 #41
HiPointDem Mar 2013 #43
abelenkpe Mar 2013 #56
mbperrin Mar 2013 #61
RoccoR5955 Mar 2013 #81
L0oniX Mar 2013 #66
rhett o rick Mar 2013 #19
spanone Mar 2013 #22
gateley Mar 2013 #25
madfloridian Mar 2013 #27
okwmember Mar 2013 #28
madfloridian Mar 2013 #34
okwmember Mar 2013 #92
madfloridian Mar 2013 #93
annabanana Mar 2013 #30
DallasNE Mar 2013 #31
madfloridian Mar 2013 #33
LineReply .
blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #35
hay rick Mar 2013 #36
madfloridian Mar 2013 #37
ProSense Mar 2013 #40
madfloridian Mar 2013 #42
L0oniX Mar 2013 #67
Ligyron Mar 2013 #68
madfloridian Mar 2013 #44
dothemath Mar 2013 #45
onethatcares Mar 2013 #48
madfloridian Mar 2013 #54
onethatcares Mar 2013 #71
madfloridian Mar 2013 #83
malaise Mar 2013 #49
bike man Mar 2013 #50
madfloridian Mar 2013 #55
chervilant Mar 2013 #51
Maineman Mar 2013 #52
jsr Mar 2013 #57
JNelson6563 Mar 2013 #60
madfloridian Mar 2013 #69
L0oniX Mar 2013 #62
eppur_se_muova Mar 2013 #73
madfloridian Mar 2013 #77
cynzke Mar 2013 #76
Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #79
madfloridian Mar 2013 #80
WcoastO Mar 2013 #82
madfloridian Mar 2013 #84
Little Star Mar 2013 #89
OldHippieChick Mar 2013 #85
Scootaloo Mar 2013 #90
FarPoint Mar 2013 #91

Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 07:31 PM

1. Of course

I live IN this area, and I just came from the Strawberry Festival. I want the farmers to do well,because they are about the only thing keeping more wal marts and other sprawl here, but something needs to be done about this billion gallon pump they did.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #1)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 07:35 PM

2. 85 sinkholes in just a short time is a very high price to pay for strawberries.

Of course they are an important part of the economy, but all our livelihoods depend on the aquifer.

Everyone has rights, but homeowners' rights are being trampled in this case.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #2)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 07:51 PM

6. With all due respect to the local economy, people in Upstate New York

should not be eating fresh strawberries in Winter! I don't know about what's sold on the local market, but the Florida berries that get shipped here tend to be tasteless and hard, anyways. Good strawberries are a delicate fruit with a shelf life of maybe three or four days. My family gorges on fresh strawberries in the month of June when the local berries are in. They won't even look at them the rest of the year!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:54 AM

63. Loss of homes, high property insurance, high water bills are subsidizing the Fl strawberry economy.

We loose so they can profit. God bless the USA and free market enterprise. pffft

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to L0oniX (Reply #63)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 05:10 PM

87. Amen to that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 07:39 PM

3. K&R for scientific context n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 07:43 PM

4. Brownwood Subdivision in Baytown, TX was abandoned due to groundwater pumping

& subsidence and hurricanes. It is now the Baytown Nature Center.

http://www.ourbaytown.com/Around_Baytown1/target42.html

video from 1985 before all the houses were cleared:

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 06:49 AM

47. I remember going through that area back in the mid 70's.

My maternal grandparents lived near there.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Manifestor_of_Light (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 09:54 AM

53. Wow

you can tell these were once beautiful well cared for homes. What happened to the owners. I think i saw a boat in front of one of the houses. Did the owners have to flee suddenly?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Heather MC (Reply #53)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:17 AM

59. FEMA bought out

the subdivision in 1983, after Alicia. The area always flooded. Even now that is a nature reserve, it still had about 10-15 feet of floodwaters during/after Hurricane Ike in 2008.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Heather MC (Reply #53)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 03:05 PM

78. swampland, essentially

lotsa transplants have built on poor land in Texas -- the ground in ETX is called "gumbo".

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 07:45 PM

5. unreal

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:00 PM

7. Wow. This is eye opening.

I've been wondering about these sinkholes. This is a little scary. I never thought for a minute that this could be a reason.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:04 PM

8. Fascinating Info from you there! Thanks..it raises many questions

that MSM hasn't gotten to...and I hope your post will ask others to "QUESTION MORE."

Sure sounds like something going on there that needs more investigation.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KoKo (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 01:37 AM

46. I agree KoKo. Much more then meets the eye here.

It's been such a non-issue, almost a coverup.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to KoKo (Reply #8)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:57 AM

65. I smell corporate political money ...and Adam Putnam. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:06 PM

9. not to mention the golf courses...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sancho (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:56 AM

64. OMG ...all the waste and polution ...for the rich assholes. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to L0oniX (Reply #64)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:54 PM

72. There are about a dozen golf courses in Pinellas County (Clearwater, St. Pete)...

the courses usually have their own wells and pump millions of gallons of water from underground, pump thousands of gallons of pesticides on the grass, and cause sinkholes and pollution. Pinellas County is a peninsula surround by water and barely above sea level. It's the most dense county in Florida. The home owners here get sucked into the sink holes with no insurance that will cover you most of time.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sancho (Reply #72)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 01:08 PM

75. I live there ...and know that ...seen the effects of the polution ...and high water bills. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Sancho (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:35 PM

70. Yea, one of, if not the....

...worst, most idiotic uses of good, arable land in human history. It's not just the land misuse and the waste of fresh water, but the noxious chemicals and C02 emissions necessary to keep such wide swaths looking like a well manicured ex-burb, front lawn. All so a bunch of old, fat white guys can knock a small white ball everywhere but where they want it to go. 2,000 years from now, it will be one of the hallmarks of consumer age, human stupidity.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:15 PM

10. Gone baby gone

They will not do anything about this until an entire Walmart disappears in a sink hole, oh wait, walmarts are economic sink holes.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Augiedog (Reply #10)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:22 PM

13. Or until it damages

a NASCAR track.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:18 PM

11. You are right. They didn't tell us.

I have wondered what the hell caused these sinkholes. I had figured it was just people building subdivisions in areas that were never suitable for buildings. But this is worse than that. This is preventable. When I saw this recent disaster, I realized that these houses are older and the neighborhoods established....this was not an area that was just recently populated.

I cannot believe that there is no one responsible when they pull water or allowed to pull water at those rates. So the homeowners are just screwed. Incredible. I am going to shoot out some letters to some MSM news and ask why this is not being reported.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Curmudgeoness (Reply #11)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:23 PM

18. Reminds me of the Oglalla Aquifer being drained...

which was referenced in Ken Burn's documentary Dust Bowl. Remember?

Corporate farming is not a good thing. The greed and disregard for consequences is astounding. What a world

edit to add: What are people going to drink if corporate farmers dry up all our aquifers? Blows my mind.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Little Star (Reply #18)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:33 PM

24. I do remember the Oglalla Aquifer,

another man-made problem that we are not hearing anything about. Crickets.

We have pushed the envelope and we (as mankind) will pay the consequences one day. I don't know the answer....we have gotten used to all the food grown this way. I don't know what people will drink in the future.....I suppose that the world should save up their money for desalination plants. Water will be the next gold. We have fracking up here in PA, using water in astronomical amounts too.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Curmudgeoness (Reply #24)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:04 AM

58. "Iíd like to share a revelation that Iíve had, during my time here."

"Iíd like to share a revelation that Iíve had, during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you arenít actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with its surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You are a plague, and we... are the cure." ~Agent Smith from The Matrix

DU is a progressive board, but don't dare mention that humanity needs to keep our numbers in check, that the number of children people have should be limited. You would not believe the number of people who think that we have no right to tell people how many children they can have. You will be accused of supporting eugenics.

If we're not willing to address these issues as a species, then we are in for a major smack down. Personally, I think we're beyond the point of no return & that smack down is coming no matter what we do. We cannot live outside of nature. We've raped, plundered & polluted our nest. Our planet can't support 7 billion people living the American dream. Our arrogance is about to catch up with us.

I think of all the humans that have ever lived in the history of Earth & I realize that I am truly in the 1% - one of the most fortunate of all humans to ever have lived. It's humbling.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CrispyQ (Reply #58)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 01:07 PM

74. I agree and get the same breathlessly hysterical responses...

....Fact is, the planet cannot support the % of homo sapiens living the consumer lifestyle we have now, much less another 2.5 billion Chinese and Indians.

Reminds me of the movie Independence Day. I doubt the makers had this in mind when they produced that mindless piece of entertainment, but WE are no better than the "aliens." WE are doing the same damn thing to our home planet. WE would do the same to other worlds as well, but fortunately for the galaxy we currently cannot get off this rock, except in very small numbers and even then, we can't travel terribly far.

I also agree that we will be one of the losers in the great, Anthropocene extinction, when the last two humans kill each other, fighting over the last barrel of oil. The jury is still out on whether human "intelligence" is a viable, evolutionary survival strategy, but so far it doesn't look good.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to CrispyQ (Reply #58)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 04:35 PM

86. With all due respect to Hugo Weaving

And the lines written for the charicter he was playing, that's bologna. Animal populations go through major boom and bust cycles, repuglarly. Animals will eat as much and expand their population as much as the resources/predation permit. As do plants.

Humans just have found ways to stave off the population crash end of things, while increasing lifespan and basically eliminating predation. For the time being, anyhow. Just means any die off will likely be that much more dramatic assuming that eventually we completely run out our resources.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Little Star (Reply #18)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:08 PM

38. Same with the Salton Sea here in California

Completely drained and no longer holds water.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Little Star (Reply #18)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 05:28 PM

88. What are people going to drink?

Bottled water from Walmart.

Next stop - how to poison the free air around us and sell us some corporate "pure-air". To overuse the meme --- Oh, wait.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:21 PM

12. k and r--thank you for this information.

years ago, I was visiting friends near clearwater. one day, as I was driving down to tampa, we were detoured because of a large sinkhole that suddenly appeared in the southbound lanes of US 19. made for some very interesting driving.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:22 PM

14. i wondered about that. i read something not so long ago about another giant (much bigger

 

than this, & continually growing) sinkhole in florida -- linked to business activity (van't remember which) -- & then i dug into the players & found a prominent family...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HiPointDem (Reply #14)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:24 PM

20. Citrus or strawberry or other?

Big prominent families connected with all types which use water to keep plants from freezing. They answer to no one, especially homeowners.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #20)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:25 PM

21. it doesn't seem like it was either of those, something more industrial. it was huge, i'll try to

 

find the article again.

the information on families i got by looking into the company named.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #20)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:08 PM

29. here it is. not florida, louisiana. corporation = texas brine company

 

A nearly 400-foot deep sinkhole in Louisiana has swallowed all of the trees in its area and enacted a mandatory evacuation order for about 150 residences for fear of potential radiation and explosions.



The gaping hole has a diameter of 372 feet. It is in Assumption Parish, La., about 50 miles south of Baton Rouge. The sinkhole sits in the middle of a heavily wooded space where it has consumed all of the soaring cypress trees that had been there. Flyover photos show some of the treetops still visible through the mud.

Authorities enacted a mandatory evacuation for between 100 and 150 homes in the area, but most people have chosen to stay, according to the Mayor's Office of Emergency Preparedness. If any of the dangers seem to become more imminent, the order will be escalated to a forced evacuation. While officials are not certain what caused the massive sinkhole, they believe it may be have ben caused by a nearby salt cavern owned by the Texas Brine Company.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/mysterious-louisiana-sinkhole-raises-concerns-explosions-radiation/story?id=16978072

Texas Brine Company, LLC is the largest independent brine producer in the United States.
Brine is water, fully saturated with sodium chloride - common table salt - and is the sole raw material used in the manufacture of chlorine and caustic soda (chloralkali). The production of brine in industrial quantities to meet the needs of U.S. industries requires a substantial investment of capital and expertise, and Texas Brine is a leader in this field.

Texas Brine is a family-owned business based in Houston, with a proud heritage in salt-related businesses since 1926. Texas Brine pioneered the commercial production of brine through solution mining in Texas salt domes, developing its first well in 1946...

http://www.texasbrine.com/company.html


Texas Brine is owned by a family that also own United Salt, a major salt producer, also Houston-based, and both are subsidiaries of the holding co. "Texas United". They all have the same personnel:

Texas United and United Salt are companies in the business of mining, manufacturing, and selling salt and related activities. Texas United is a holding company with six shareholders, and United Salt is its wholly owned subsidiary. Webre is a 24% shareholder in Texas United, and he serves on the boards of directors of both companies. Sneed is the President and CEO of Texas United, Tichenor is the Senior Vice President of Texas United and also serves on the board of directors for United Salt, Wolgel is the General Counsel of both United Salt and Texas United, and O'Donnell is the President and CEO of United Salt. The individual appellees also serve as officers for various related companies. Sneed, Wolgel, and Tichenor are officers of a company referred to by the parties as "Texas Brine," and Sneed is an officer of Texas Brine CompanyóSaltville, LLC. Although Texas United and United Salt hold separate board meetings, the same people serve on the board of directors for both companies: Lloyd Webre (appellant); his siblings Camille (Webre) Tichenor, Roberta (Webre) Rude, Mary I. Webre; and spouses and unrelated people, James Tichenor, Arnold J. Webre, and Robert D. Duboise.

http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=In%20TXCO%2020110728738.xml&docbase=CSLWAR3-2007-CURR



A sister company of Texas Brine Corp., United Salt Corp. owns the six-floor office tower at 4800 San Felipe and employs about 225 people...

United Salt Corp. began with the salt mine In Hockley. A salt dome was discovered there by Texas Co., an oil firm, when drilling on Warren Ranch in 1916. The company hit salt, but never oil, and entrepreneur Lloyd Webre Sr. acquired the mine. Webre family involvement can be linked back to Camille "C.J." Webre, who was a mine manager. A third-generation member of the Webre family now owns United Salt Corp., and though they don't manage the company, family members continue to sit on the board.

While the average Houstonian probably is only vaguely aware of the salt industry in Texas, geophysicists are keenly interested in salt. Where there's a salt dome, there's a strong likelihood of hydrocarbons, which translate to oil... United Salt Corp. is the fourth largest salt producer in the country, which actually means its the smallest salt producer in the nation...

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/stories/1999/10/04/story2.html?page=all



and there's some kind of oil connection. Lloyd webre senior was in the oil business and a bigshot in the houston republican party...


Latest:

Nightmare Sinkhole Out of Control, Cave-ins Continue at Bayou Corne



Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:27 PM

15. KNR. How is this getting reported without reference to this issue?


You'd never get this idea reading the "crazy sinkhole out of nowhere" stories on this event.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DirkGently (Reply #15)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:12 PM

17. John Zarrella who is CNNís Miami correspondent reported this last night on

AC360.

This is John Zarrella:


He point blank laid it out, that most of those sink holes in FL are caused by farming taking all that water out of the ground. To bad others fall far short of what the public needs/should know.

I always like John Zarella's reporting. He tells things like they are when given the opportunity.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Little Star (Reply #17)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:01 PM

26. Good for him. In 2010 the local stations reported a little, then they backed away.

And we have not heard much. The guy that lost his home was almost too emotional to speak when we talked to him. It was like his world was falling apart.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #26)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:42 PM

32. His pain was so raw and visible on tv last night I couldn't get it out of my mind all day today....

There are just no words to explain how visible the pain was for him. I'm not overly religious but I prayed for him last night and will continue to for a while. I don't know how he will make it through this but there is nothing anyone can do for his pain except pray. sigh

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 08:30 PM

16. Fracking in Texas will do the same. Simple oil removal has already resulted in

sinkholes here in west Texas, like the Wink sink, home of Roy Orbison:



The "Wink Sink' sinkhole formed almost overnight. It is located near Wink and Kermit, Texas.

Yes, that is a large drilling rig in the picture as well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mbperrin (Reply #16)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:27 PM

23. Wow. That looks scarey.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mbperrin (Reply #16)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:08 PM

39. Wow, I just showed that to my son home from TX for visit.

He was really surprised. That's huge. And deep.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #39)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:16 PM

41. It's pretty interesting.

The entire displaced volume underground was a huge salt bed. A nearby oil well operated with zero problems, pumped out all the oil, then capped the hole.

But rainwater seeped into the capped borehole, and essentially washed away the salt in solution over a few years. When enough was gone, the surface collapsed.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Robb (Reply #41)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:38 PM

43. oil & salt often found together.

 

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mbperrin (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 10:47 AM

56. Somehow

I doubt solar panels or wind farms would cause the same kind of destruction.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to abelenkpe (Reply #56)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:44 AM

61. Well, abelenkpe, I agree with you.

But everyone knows I'm just one step away from being a Communist or terrorist or something...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mbperrin (Reply #61)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 03:38 PM

81. I AM a Socialist...

Communist, whatever you want to call me. And I am proud of it!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to mbperrin (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:02 PM

66. My bet is that the fracking/gas corporations are invested in clean water resources as well.

You know ...one hand feeding the other. How long will it be before the people rise up against the corporations who profit from greed and destruction?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:24 PM

19. k&r

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:27 PM

22. k&r...

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 09:57 PM

25. Thanks, madfloridian! I just heard another blip about it on the car radio while

driving home from work, and I wondered HOW did this happen? What caused this? But not a word.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:05 PM

27. More details. Caused 60 ft drop in aquifer which went up 50 ft in a few days.

"The extensive pumping caused a drop of 60 feet in the aquifer in the Dover area. Within days of the weather warming up, the water level had gone back up by 50 feet. That triggered a series of sinkholes in the region.

"When we go below 30 feet, that's when we start seeing problems," Moore said.

Of the 85 sinkholes reported, 24 involved damage to the area's roads, deputy executive director Richard Owen told the agency's board. One affected an elementary school. Another swallowed a mobile home.

Rep. Richard "Rich" Glorioso, R-Plant City, told the board that five homes in his district had been condemned because of sinkholes, and Plant City officials must find $2 million to pay for sinkhole damage to city property. He contended that some farmers left their sprinklers on far longer than they needed to and that their excess water use contributed to the disaster."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/environment/water/during-record-cold-farmers-used-1-billion-gallons-of-water-daily-causing/1068208

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:08 PM

28. They followed up allowing the pumping with a change to insurance rules

that require homeowners to buy sinkhole insurance separate from their regular policies the way we do hurricane or flood insurance.
But the kicker is that unlike hurricane or flood insurance, the insurance companies don't actually have to offer you a sinkhole policy if you ask for one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to okwmember (Reply #28)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:44 PM

34. State Farm dropped sinkhole coverage, but said we could pay for a survey and then get it.

Which we did. Turns out the cost of the survey was split $25 each with them, and the coverage only added a hundred dollars a year.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #34)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 07:43 PM

92. Lucky you.

State Farm dropped us like a hot potato when we made the move from WPB to Tampa. Our new insurance, which I'm grateful is not yet Citizens would not even consider sinkhole based on our zip code.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to okwmember (Reply #92)

Tue Mar 5, 2013, 10:15 AM

93. Because of your zip code?

I did not know they were doing that. West Palm is close to the water also, I would have thought just as close as Tampa?

So sorry about that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:09 PM

30. I had NO idea! Our media exists to keep us

OUT OF THE LOOP!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:14 PM

31. Blaming Man For These Sinkholes Is Like Blaming

Man for global warming. The evidence is overwhelming but not completely conclusive so those with a special interest will deny the causal relationship so what we are seeing is exactly what would be expected.

What is needed here is a limit on the number of wells permitted and to meter the wells in use with shut-off valves when a pre-determined limit has been hit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to DallasNE (Reply #31)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:43 PM

33. I blame man for using resources irresponsibly. I think homeowners have a right to know...

when their state is not protecting them from such lack of accountability.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 10:54 PM

35. .

.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:01 PM

36. I learned about this from the msm.

That's the madfloridian-stream media. Thanks for posting this.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to hay rick (Reply #36)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:04 PM

37. Ha..

That was funny and nice.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:11 PM

40. Given full knowledge of

the state's strata, why on earth would this practice be allowed? Seems like pure madness.

Sinkholes

Sinkholes are a common feature of Florida's landscape. They are only one of many kinds of karst landforms, which include caves, disappearing streams, springs, and underground drainage systems, all of which occur in Florida. Karst is a generic term which refers to the characteristic terrain produced by erosional processes associated with the chemical weathering and dissolution of limestone or dolomite, the two most common carbonate rocks in Florida. Dissolution of carbonate rocks begins when they are exposed to acidic water. Most rainwater is slightly acidic and usually becomes more acidic as it moves through decaying plant debris.

Limestones in Florida are porous, allowing the acidic water to percolate through their strata, dissolving some limestone and carrying it away in solution. Over eons of time, this persistent erosional process has created extensive underground voids and drainage systems in much of the carbonate rocks throughout the state. Collapse of overlying sediments into the underground cavities produces sinkholes.

When groundwater discharges from an underground drainage system, it is a spring, such as Wakulla Springs, Silver Springs, or Rainbow Springs. Sinkholes can occur in the beds of streams, sometimes taking all of the stream's flow, creating a disappearing stream. Dry caves are parts of karst drainage systems that are above the water table, such as Marianna Caverns.

Other subterranean events can cause holes, depressions or subsidence of the land surface that may mimic sinkhole activity. These include subsurface expansive clay or organic layers which compress as water is removed, collapsed or broken sewer and drain pipes or broken septic tanks, improperly compacted soil after excavation work, and even buried trash, logs and other debris. Often a depression is not verified by a licensed professional geologist or engineer to be a true sinkhole, and the cause of subsidence is not known. Such events are called subsidence incidents.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/geology/geologictopics/sinkhole.htm

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to ProSense (Reply #40)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:32 PM

42. Florida is known for such madness in some areas.

This is one of them.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #42)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:05 PM

67. The USA Corporation is known for its madness all over the world. n/t

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #42)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:14 PM

68. The madness seems to be everywhere in all areas

Agricultural and farming interests are granted permits to pump ridiculous amounts of groundwater up onto their over fertilized fields whereupon nearby springs such as Silver, Weiki, Rainbow, etc. eventually start pumping out this now phosphate laden H2O thus turning these once pristine, crystal clear springs into algae swamps. Flow rates of these first magnitude, world-class treasures are decreasing every year too.

Yeah, there's been a drought here like many other places in the US, (huh, wonder why?) but when you've seen entire lakes disappear into a crack in the ground over the past few years leaving people's once lakeside docks now high and dry, ya really gotta wonder how much more of a visual is needed for educational purposes.

With it's huge and growing population dependent on little else but this vanishing resource for it's drinking water, something has gotta give - and it will apparently be the ground under people's houses well before any kind of restriction on water usage by corporate/agricultural interests.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sat Mar 2, 2013, 11:41 PM

44. Sinkhole politics: Who Gets Heard. Excellent article from Brandon Courier

Another article from 2010 before all the media hushed up and went silent.

Sinkhole politics. Who gets heard?

Midday on Friday, Gov. Charlie Crist toured a citrus grove in Polk County, noted the "incredible damage" caused by days of freezing temperatures and signed a letter asking for federal disaster relief for Florida's farmers.

That same afternoon, Sergio Plaza stood quietly, a protective arm around his 7-year-old daughter, staring at his condemned house. His driveway and front yard are no more, consumed by a 35- to 40-foot sinkhole Wednesday. The Plant City home he bought in 1991 on a friendly residential cul-de-sac now teeters on the edge of a pit.

...Strawberry city

Living with misery and anxiety breeds resentment, even in the small town of Plant City, the strawberriest place on Earth. With its berry-bedecked downtown decor, its annual strawberry festival and the crowning of wholesome strawberry queens, the city owes much to its farmers.

..But Plant City residents are starting to grumble that everyone from the mayor to the governor care far more about the farmers than the little guy.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:52 AM

45. I wish I had paid more attention.

 

I think it was on NPR. As I recall, a man calling himself a 'sinkhole consultant' and with a company called 'sinkhole consulting' gave an interview and pretty much blamed sinkholes on everything but creating vast hollowed-out spaces not far under infrastructure of all kinds by pumping water out of the ground. REPEAT, I said RECALL Save your 'got it wrong' comments, please.
It might be on public radio website(s). Check it out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 08:09 AM

48. sinkhole "expert" on baynews 9 says

when asked what caused this, "there is a layer of clay on top of the limestone and when the clay is gone, a sinkhole is formed".



I've only been here for about 35 years and haven't found much clay on the surface, how about you native guys?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to onethatcares (Reply #48)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 10:17 AM

54. Clay? Really? I know some N.Florida areas have red clay like GA....

But I am a lifelong Floridian and never saw any clay anywhere else. Spin and propaganda.

I'd like to think BayNews9 would be more honest. But it seems to be evolving into part of the spin machine.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #54)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:40 PM

71. no, it's another faux lite

sometime watch al ruchel (?), you'll see what I mean.

back to the original, Seffner doesn't have a clay layer, as you said it's just spin. We wouldn't want the Strawberry Festival, which is in swing right now, to be blamed for anything.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to onethatcares (Reply #71)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 04:20 PM

83. I have wondered about Al for a while.

Seems recently, or at least I maybe just noticed, his interviews have been skewed to the right quite a bit. I had to look him up to check spelling. He's been annoying me lately.

http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/about/bios/al-ruechel.html

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 08:20 AM

49. Freaking wow!!

Rec

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 08:30 AM

50. "They" do tell us about this. There are numerous discussions about water use vs sinkholes

 

at many of the public meetings with Santa Fe WMD, Suwannee WMD, et al throughout the year.

Many of the complaints involve the use of vast amount of water by the large/corporate dairies/farms while at the same time smaller users (residences and smaller farms) are encouraged to limit water use, often with mandatory restrictions placed on that usage.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to bike man (Reply #50)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 10:35 AM

55. Yes, home users are limited always. Mandatory restrictions.

The irony of all that is too obvious.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 09:20 AM

51. No stopping them ...

Because Agri-businesses are members of that exclusive club of corporate megalomaniacs who own and control the majority of our planets' resources. To them, profit (and the commiserate power) is the sole pinnacle.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 09:49 AM

52. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" have become anti-abortion, anti-government, and the

pursuit of wealth.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 10:48 AM

57. This is a must read

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:31 AM

60. Great OP, great thread!

Good to see you MF! How are you these days my old friend?

Wow! WTF is going on in FLA?? I had no idea things were this bad. I learned much from the OP and the subsequent posts from others.

Threads like this are what made/make DU great.

Take care MF and watch out for those damn holes!



Julie

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to JNelson6563 (Reply #60)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:15 PM

69. Hi Julie. Yeh things are bad here in many ways.

Good to see you.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 11:50 AM

62. ...and we all here will be paying higher water bills so they can make money from strawberries.

So if I buy strawberries I am paying more for them than just the store price. I need water much more than an occasional strawberry desert. Who decides how much water the strawberry farmers get ...and does Adam Putnam or any other assholes get kick backs from these farmers? ...and are these farmers fronts for some corporation? If they are then that would explain the abuse of our natural resources quite well.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 12:56 PM

73. If it weren't for DU, and especially MF, I wouldn't know about this at all.

a DUgle ...

https://www.google.com/search?q=strawberry+sinkhole&sitesearch=democraticunderground.com

but I haven't read anything about this in the Money$treamMedia.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to eppur_se_muova (Reply #73)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 02:10 PM

77. I just did another search....nothing.

That one 2010 article I posted from the Tampa Bay Times

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 01:40 PM

76. Disaster in the making!

This reminds me of a recent three-part documentary I watched concerning the dust bowl. Because farmers in the central heartland plowed under the native grasses that kept the top soil in place; it created a massive environmental disaster that affected the entire economy of the US. The resulting devastation and environmental imbalance took close to a decade to recover from. Unbelievable what damage was done. Now we are on the way to completely destroying our natural aquifers from fracking and massive pumping.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 03:15 PM

79. Wow.

This is highly informative mad. I'll make sure to spread the word.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Starry Messenger (Reply #79)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 03:35 PM

80. Thanks.

It's really sad. For that guy we met to be told that he could not wait for the insurance assessment, just get out because we were going to have another freeze. The utter nerve.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 04:06 PM

82. Sinkholes are a natural part of the geology of Florida.

Karst topography is caused by groundwater flowing through limestone strata. Groundwater is naturally slightly acidic and over time, the acid dissolves the limestone. This creates random openings in the rock. Over the course of time, these openings get larger and become caverns. Carlsbad Caverns, Mammoth Caves, Lewis and Clark Cavern are three such features. If the caverns are close to the surface or become large enough, the top collapses and produces a sinkhole. The locations and timing of sinkhole events are relatively random and unpredictable. In the case of the Florida sinkholes and the aquifer fluctuations, a full aquifer will exert upward pressure that helps support overlying rock and structures, but that support is ultimately temporary. In true geologic fashion, the full aquifer patiently continues to dissolve the limestone, thinning and weakening the rock, inevitably resulting in a sinkhole. It is estimated that >90% of Florida lakes are filled in sinkholes.

http://coastal.er.usgs.gov/publications/ofr/00-180/intro/karst.html

http://webworldwonders.firn.edu/cameras/piney_z/sa/kid_web_projects/KathyG/index.html
1


Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to WcoastO (Reply #82)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 04:23 PM

84. Let's stop pretending. The aquifer is essential, and depleting it is stupid.

On my Kos post the spin has started, and it is ridiculous. Of course sinkholes happen, but it is just plain ignorant and stupid to pretend that depleted the aquifer is not making it worse.

That is just ridiculous spin.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Reply #84)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 05:47 PM

89. +100000000000000000000000000000000000000

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 04:24 PM

85. Sinkholes will become common in other areas

If we do not insist our natural resources are protected. To drill for oil and gas, they need water. Often what is available in the dusty regions where they drill for oil is the water from aquifers - some of them very deep. And they can drill horizontally for both. Eventually, water will become the new "oil", more valuable because of its scarcity as climate change dries out our planet.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 06:00 PM

90. You mean to tell me that pumping groundwater out of waterlogged land...

Might have an impact on the stability of the surface?!

Land management practices in the US are still stuck with the mentality that everywhere is central England.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to madfloridian (Original post)

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 06:52 AM

91. Excellent Post.

Now I know the rest of the story. This is what needs to make news!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink

Reply to this thread