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Tue Feb 26, 2013, 04:38 AM

 

Energy Dept announces plan to allow use of radioactive metal in consumer products

In something of a stealth maneuver during the 2012 holiday season, the U.S. Department of Energy set about to give every American a little more radiation exposure, and for some a lot, by allowing manufacturers to use radioactive metals in their consumer products – such as zippers, spoons, jewelry, belt buckles, toys, pots, pans, furnishings, bicycles, jungle gyms, medical implants, or any other metal or partly-metal product.

The Energy Dept. announced its plan in the Federal Register on Dec. 12 and invited comment for 30 days, through Jan.11. Citing its need to address environmental concerns under the National Environmental Protection Act (NEPA), the agency said, in part, that its plan was: “to delegate authority to manage radiological clearance and release of scrap metal from radiological areas to each Under Secretary for sites under his or her cognizance. …

“ This Draft PEA for the Recycling of Scrap Metals Originating from Radiological Areas analyzes the potential environmental impacts associated with resuming the clearance of scrap metal, originating from DOE radiological areas, for recycling pursuant to improved procedures designed to assure that clearance for release is limited to metals meeting stringent criteria.”

Translated from the bureaucratese, this is a proposal to lift a ban on recycling radioactive metals left over from American bomb-making and other nuclear activities and allow them to be used commercially with “stringent” but largely unenforceable criteria for their use. The initial ban was ordered in 2000, by then Secretary of Energy Bill Richardson.

Largely ignored by mainstream media, the plan caught the attention of an alert member of Congress, Rep. Edward Markey, D-Massachusetts, who wrote a three-page letter to Energy Secretary Steven Chu on Jan. 11, beginning:

“I write to convey my grave concerns regarding your December 2012 proposal to rescind the agency-wide suspension of the release of radioactively contaminated scrap metal from Department of Energy (DOE) facilities for purposes of recycling it into consumer products that could ultimately by utilized by pregnant women, children or other vulnerable populations. This proposal is unwise, and should be immediately abandoned.”

http://consortiumnews.com/2013/02/04/recycling-radioactive-metals-disputed/

47 replies, 3039 views

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Reply Energy Dept announces plan to allow use of radioactive metal in consumer products (Original post)
HiPointDem Feb 2013 OP
newfie11 Feb 2013 #1
global1 Feb 2013 #3
newfie11 Feb 2013 #21
TDale313 Feb 2013 #2
triplepoint Feb 2013 #4
Journeyman Feb 2013 #5
MadHound Feb 2013 #7
Rain Mcloud Feb 2013 #8
Divernan Feb 2013 #9
colorado_ufo Feb 2013 #6
quaker bill Feb 2013 #10
leftyohiolib Feb 2013 #15
quaker bill Feb 2013 #30
newfie11 Feb 2013 #22
quaker bill Feb 2013 #29
newfie11 Feb 2013 #32
Divernan Feb 2013 #42
quaker bill Feb 2013 #44
Hubert Flottz Feb 2013 #11
timdog44 Feb 2013 #12
Downwinder Feb 2013 #13
newfie11 Feb 2013 #23
formercia Feb 2013 #33
Downwinder Feb 2013 #38
Divernan Feb 2013 #14
FogerRox Feb 2013 #17
Divernan Feb 2013 #19
KoKo Feb 2013 #35
KoKo Feb 2013 #36
Divernan Feb 2013 #41
Baitball Blogger Feb 2013 #16
ThomThom Feb 2013 #18
JaneyVee Feb 2013 #20
newfie11 Feb 2013 #24
Nay Feb 2013 #27
newfie11 Feb 2013 #34
woo me with science Feb 2013 #40
KoKo Feb 2013 #47
Ilsa Feb 2013 #25
RobertEarl Feb 2013 #39
Divernan Feb 2013 #43
HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #26
Jasana Feb 2013 #28
forestpath Feb 2013 #31
KoKo Feb 2013 #37
KoKo Feb 2013 #45
DearHeart Feb 2013 #46

Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 05:10 AM

1. What a country

Recycling radioactive metals into consumer products, additives in our food, pesticides that are known to affect humans.
And no one knows why we have so much cancer and autoimmune illnesses.

Thanks a lot!

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 05:29 AM

3. Not To Worry....

We have an Affordable Care Act. (sarcasm)

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Response to global1 (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:21 PM

21. Oh yeah TG. Ng

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 05:15 AM

2. What could possibly go wrong?

Wow, just wow.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 05:41 AM

4. asshole chu's parting gift

 

Don't say he never gave us anything..that definitely causes cancer; the "gift" that keeps on giving....until you die....and then some...

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 05:51 AM

5. Serves us right--We debated and debated where to put this garbage, and couldn't arrive at consensus…

and now the corporate interests have swooped in with a plan to get rid of it by hiding it in our dresser drawers, closets and garages, and by letting our children play with it (because children are, after all, notorious for losing things).

Forty years ago, while working in the military for these trash burners and garbage stuffers, I realized with a start that we may have already gone beyond the tipping point. And here we are, almost perpendicular.


If I should remark that in the Pacific depths
bubbles trickle ominously through concrete boxes,
what would you answer?


~Evan S. Connell, Points for a Compass Rose (1973)

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 06:24 AM

7. Nice, way to blame the future victims.

 

There was a reason why a consensus couldn't be reached, because there is no good way to dispose of the waste, period. Which is one big reason why we shouldn't have continued with our nuclear program. But instead, we did, and now everybody gets to pay the price.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 06:39 AM

8. But wait.......

 

there is a boatload of money to be made.

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #5)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:05 AM

9. We elected Obama to block this kind of crap, not enable it!

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 06:15 AM

6. Time to be outraged - yet again!

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:16 AM

10. Almost everything in nature is radioactive to some level

The question is what level are they talking about and what is the difference between it an new metals mined from the ground?

At any of these nuke facilities they are likely to have metal scrap that is very little if any different in radioactive content than metal from any scrapyard, and of course, other materials that glow in the dark. What are the standards for re-use and who enforces them?

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Response to quaker bill (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:03 AM

15. well then let's add it to our cereal

 

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Response to leftyohiolib (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:39 PM

30. Your cereal is radioactive already, get used to it - in fact you already are.

The elements that compose your body are radioactive at some level, so you pretty much can't escape it. Cosmic rays pass through your body in huge numbers every second, all the time, from conception to complete decomposition.

The question is how radioactive is it? BTW, "natural" and "organic" radiation is not measurably different than "arificial" radiation, this is because they are the precisely the same thing. The question is only how much.

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Response to quaker bill (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:27 PM

22. Cobalt 60 and cesium 137

Are not you everyday background level radiation.

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:31 PM

29. True, but are these proposed for re-use as anything other than a radiation source?

IThat is all these isotopes are used for. Cesium 137 for instance is the gamma source for nuclear density gages. I am guessing you have not used one. I rather doubt they will be open recycling the components for a dirty bomb....

I am guessing the dim response is related to the fact that I am correct, and you know it. Yes, I do in fact understand nuclear chemistry, have taken the courses, and actually cleaned up sites with chemical and radioactive contamination for a living at one point earlier in life.

Everything is in fact somewhat radioactive, the question is how much.

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Response to quaker bill (Reply #29)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:25 AM

32. Sure there is radiation AND then there is RADIATION


I am familiar with the medical forms of cobalt and have experienced what happens to someone exposed to cesium 137. While working in Rapid City SD an entire family was contaminated by cesium 137 due to it leaking into their well from nearby Ellsworth AFB. I am not going to say the results but will say they were still being followed up, Mom Dad and children when I retired 3 years later.

I am a now retired x-ray tech/my husband a Radiation Therapy/Nuclear medicine tech, and also did nuclear physics while in the navy.

This is what was listed in the article:
“In 2006 in Texas, for example, a recycling facility inadvertently created 500,000 pounds of radioactive steel byproducts after melting metal contaminated with Cesium-137, according to U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission records.

“The discovery of a radioactive cheese grater led to an investigation that found thousands of additional consumer products to be contaminated. The source is recycled metals tainted with Cobalt-60, a radioactive isotope that can cause cancer with prolonged exposure.”

Neither one of these are anything I want near me.

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 02:40 PM

42. We do our best to educate Quaker Bill -

If he'll just read all the information provided in this thread, complete with links.

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 06:05 PM

44. Neither one of these are anything I want near me.

I agree. Accidents do happen. This does not mean that re-use and recycling cannot be done safely, just that sometimes it hasn't.

I do understand the risks scientifically.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:24 AM

11. That would make some great stuff to

make the republicans campaign badges out of!

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:24 AM

12. So "they" get to put this

corruption into my everyday products, but when I sell my house, I have to have it checked for radon. "They" want it one way and "they" want it the other. Hidden agenda? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:43 AM

13. Worked so well on the Navajo Reservation.

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:28 PM

23. Yep I am a downwinders too

Ambrosia Lake NM

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Response to Downwinder (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:29 AM

33. Kerr McGee got the Uranium

and the Indians got the Shaft.

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Response to formercia (Reply #33)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 12:04 PM

38. They got all of that nice construction material

that DOE is talking about selling.

As I remember that nuclear waste did not make good road fill in Mo. either.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:46 AM

14. The EU's Restriction of Hazardous Substances Directive.

The US was already lethally behind the EU in protecting citizens/residents from exposure to toxic substances. Now we add radioactive materials to our products? What is this? A new Obama anti-science policy? You don't recycle radioactive!

The Obama administration is moving in the opposite direction, and against scientific knowledge in regard to protecting citizens from exposure to hazardous materials! Absolutely inexcusable and unacceptable!

While taking a train in Ireland about 6 years ago, I sat next to an American woman who was a computer salesperson assigned to the UK. She explained to me that computers and other equipment her company sold had to meet higher safety standards in all developed countries, except the US, in regard to dangerous components. I am NOT relying on a single source of information. Below are chapter and verse links to data backing up what she told me.

http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/environment/air_pollution/l28035_en.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive
The EU's restriction of hazardous substances (ROHS) is often referred to as the lead-free directive, but it restricts the use of the following six substances:

Lead (Pb)
Mercury (Hg)
Cadmium (Cd)
Hexavalent chromium (Cr6+)
Polybrominated biphenyls (PBB)
Polybrominated diphenyl ether (PBDE)

The directive applies to equipment as defined by a section of the WEEE directive. The following numeric categories apply:

Large household appliances.
Small household appliances.
IT & Telecommunications equipment
Consumer equipment.
Lighting equipment—including light bulbs.
Electronic and electrical tools.
Toys, leisure, and sports equipment.
Medical devices (exemption removed in July, 2011)
Monitoring and control instruments (exemption removed in July, 2011)
Automatic dispensers.
Semiconductor devices

RoHS restricted substances have been used in a broad array of consumer electronics products. Examples of leaded components include:

paints and pigments
PVC (vinyl) cables as a stabilizer (e.g., power cords, USB cables)
solders
printed circuit board finishes, leads, internal and external interconnects
glass in television and photographic products (e.g., CRT television screens and camera lenses)
metal parts
lamps and bulbs
batteries
Hazardous materials and the high-tech trash problem

RoHS and other efforts to reduce hazardous materials in electronics are motivated in part to address the global issue of consumer electronics waste. As newer technology arrives at an ever increasing rate, consumers are discarding their obsolete products sooner than ever. This waste ends up in landfills and in countries like China to be "recycled."http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es071873x

"In the fashion-conscious mobile market, 98 million U.S. cell phones took their last call in 2005. All told, the EPA estimates that in the U.S. that year, between 1.5 and 1.9 million tons of computers, TVs, VCRs, monitors, cell phones, and other equipment were discarded. If all sources of electronic waste are tallied, it could total 50 million tons a year worldwide, according to the UN Environment Programme."
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/01/high-tech-trash/carroll-text

American electronics sent offshore to countries like Ghana in West Africa under the guise of recycling may be doing more harm than good. Not only are adult and child workers in these jobs being poisoned by heavy metals, but these metals are returning to the U.S. "The U.S. right now is shipping large quantities of leaded materials to China, and China is the world's major manufacturing center," Dr. Jeffrey Weidenhamer says, a chemistry professor at Ashland University in Ohio. "It's not all that surprising things are coming full circle and now we're getting contaminated products back."http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-9919304-54.html?tag=nefd.lede
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/15/science/earth/15obrecy.html?ref=technology

Now we can add radioactive poison to all the other hazardous materials we inflict upon our own citizens and ship to 3rd world countries! A new version of American Exceptionalism!

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Response to Divernan (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:15 PM

17. Holy cow Batman, excellent comment

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Response to FogerRox (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:43 PM

19. Thanks for taking the time to read through it.

I put a lot of effort into it. I think this thread should have been featured on DU's home page. It certainly would have been and gotten hundreds of "likes" if this had happened during a Bush administration.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 09:35 AM

35. Thanks for this post, Divernan. It's an important read to go along with OP..

There was an article about Bed, Bath & Beyond having a problem with some product they sold with high levels of radiation. It was from China and the article talked about how we are sending our recycling over there and now it comes back in even "high end" products. I hate to think what's in the cheap stuff sold in Dollar Stores or Walmart.

There was another article a couple of years ago about high radiation found in a shipping container from China in California. It was considered a "mystery" and I think it was a customs inspector who found it by accident.

I'll see if I have time if I can find those two articles and post in the thread later. But, I do worry that the problem may have been so great with Chinese imports that the stores complained they wouldn't have any products to sell unless the government reduced the standards for radiation. So the Govt. (Chu) decided to give the stores the go ahead to keep commerce flowing. No matter that store employees and millions of consumers end up with a house full of radioactive products. It's not just a zipper or a cheese grater it would be the accumulation of radioactive products in your home that would give constant exposure and that would seem to be a health hazard that needs to be addressed.

Edited: for "BB&B" and not "Pottery Barn" which I had in original article.

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Response to Divernan (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 09:59 AM

36. Nuclear Risks at Bed, Bath & Beyond Show Dangers of Scrap


Nuclear Risks at Bed, Bath & Beyond Show Dangers of Scrap
By Jonathan Tirone & Andrew MacAskill - Mar 20, 2012 2:23 AM ET

Going shopping? Don’t forget your wallet and credit card. Or Geiger counter.

The discovery of radioactive tissue boxes at Bed, Bath & Beyond Inc. (BBBY) stores in January raised alarms among nuclear security officials and company executives over the growing global threat of contaminated scrap metal.

While the U.S. home-furnishing retailer recalled the boutique boxes from 200 stores nationwide without any reports of injury, the incident highlighted one of the topics drawing world leaders to a nuclear security meeting in Seoul on March 26-27. The bi-annual summit, convened by President Barack Obama for the first time in 2010, seeks to stem the flow of atomic material that has been lost, stolen or discarded as trash.

As U.S. and European leaders tackle the proliferation of weapons-grade uranium or plutonium in countries like Iran and North Korea, industries are confronting the impact of loose nuclear material in an international scrap-metal market worth at least $140 billion, according to the Brussels-based Bureau of International Recycling. Radioactive items used to power medical, military and industrial hardware are melted down and used in goods, driving up company costs as they withdraw tainted products and threatening the public’s health.
‘Major Risk’

“The major risk we face in our industry is radiation,” said Paul de Bruin, radiation-safety chief for Jewometaal Stainless Processing BV, one of the world’s biggest stainless- steel scrap yards. “You can talk about security all you want, but I’ve found weapons-grade uranium in scrap. Where was the security?”

More than 120 shipments of contaminated goods including cutlery, buckles and work tools like hammers and screwdrivers were denied U.S. entry between 2003 and 2008 after customs and the Department of Homeland Security boosted radiation monitoring at borders. The department declined to provide updated figures or comment on how the metal tissue boxes at Bed, Bath & Beyond, tainted with melted cobalt-60 used in medical instruments to diagnose and treat cancer, evaded detection.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-03-19/nuclear-risks-at-bed-bath-beyond-show-hidden-danger-of-scrap.html

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Response to KoKo (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 02:34 PM

41. Bed,BathTissue boxes tainted with melted cobalt-60 used in medical instruments!

Thanks for this article, KoKo - Weapons grade uranium found in scrap metal?!?!? This is even worse than I thought, and I can now understand what Chu/Obama were up to - raising the level of allowable amounts of radiation to benefit manufacturers/$$$ - keep those campaign donations coming!

The totally insane aspect of this is that all of us suffer from this cumulative exposure - the 1 percenters, the 47 percenters, the anti-regulation tea partiers, lobbyists, the bought and paid for politicians, and their children and grandchildren - yes, Mr. President, your daughters as well. I will be circulating this information as much as possible - if the low information folks can drag themselves away from NASCAR crashes and "reality" fantasy shows.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:44 AM

16. They have been wanting to reuse the carbon in radiation plants for years, putting them

in batteries.

Since the nineties.

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Response to Baitball Blogger (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 02:25 PM

18. also in the concrete and paving materials that we build with

you are right this not new

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 07:45 PM

20. WTF IS GOING ON WITH THIS COUNTRY?!

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:30 PM

24. I say this many times a day

But have no answers

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Response to newfie11 (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:20 PM

27. Me, too. Frankly, I'm glad I'm old. I weep for my grandson. nt

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Response to Nay (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:49 AM

34. I know the feeling

I worry about my 4 grandchildren and this screwy world.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 02:31 PM

40. We used to have a Democratic Party that stood in opposition to corporatist, predatory policies.

Now both parties are corporatist, and there is no opposition.

That is why circling the wagons and blaming everything only on Republicans is so malignant. It ensures that the country will never be able to unite against what is being done to us, because we are always reluctant to hold our side accountable.

We have a systemic problem of corporate money guiding policy in BOTH parties. It is time to acknowledge that and stand up together as Americans to GET THE CORPORATE MONEY OUT OF OUR GOVERNMENT.

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Response to woo me with science (Reply #40)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:39 PM

47. I think we thought we did...and it ended with Carter...so...

I hear ya' ...it's just that we didn't know. We thought we were fighting with Army "A" and it morphed into Army "B" for Compromise with Reagen and then Clinton...(who was much more the Promise...than Obama) for us older ones..but, since Clinton didn't succeed and it went to Bush II....we Dems got ourselves into splits....

Well...it goes on... I won't give links because folks don't have time to read or care, really.

Whatever...you probably might understand what I said simply.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:46 PM

25. I do believe it's time to buy a Geiger Counter. nt

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 01:03 PM

39. Not so easy to detect rads

At the link below is a pretty rich list of the different counters and processes to measure rads.

http://www.remm.nlm.gov/civilian.htm

I think supplying people with rad measuring tools could be the next booming industry.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #39)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 03:07 PM

43. I just FB'd to my kids that this is what I want for Mother's Day

Since one of my kids works on nuclear plant safety for FEMA, I think she'll follow through.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:00 PM

26. Because it worked out so well before?

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:26 PM

28. Sadly I thought you were joking in the header message...

and then I clicked...and oh Holy Shit! Are they insane? This thread should be tacked somewhere with the words READ ME in red. (Perhaps glowing red would be most appropriate.)

Hopefully bumping it back up to the top of GD will get more people to read it.

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 10:54 PM

31. Which Obama crony will get even richer off of this?

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 10:58 AM

37. Thousands of consumer products found to contain low levels of radiation

Thousands of consumer products found to contain low levels of radiation


One of the most conservative estimates comes from the U.S. Government Accountability Office, which put the number of radioactively contaminated metal objects unaccounted for in the United States in 2005 at 500,000. Others suggest the amount is far higher. The most recent NRC estimate - made a decade ago - is 20 million pounds of contaminated waste.

What is known is that the NRC's national Nuclear Material Events Database has documented 18,740 cases involving radioactive material in consumer products, metal intended for their manufacture and other inadvertent exposures to the public, the vast majority since 1990. State environmental reports - obtained under state freedom of information requests - also reveal dozens of others.

A recent example emerged last summer, when a Flint, Mich., scrap plant discovered a beat-up kitchen cheese grater that was radioactive. The China-made grater bearing the well-known EKCO brand name was laced with the isotope cobalt-60. Tests showed the gadget to be giving off the equivalent of a chest X-ray over 36 hours of use, according to NRC documents.

Estimated to have been in circulation for as long as a decade, the grater likely was four to five times more radioactive when it was new. EKCO's parent company, World Kitchen, of Rosemont, Ill., described the incident as isolated and found no need to issue a recall, spokesman Bryan Glancy said.

It was not the only cheese grater found. NRC documents show that another cobalt-60-tainted grater had turned up in Jacksonville, Fla., in 2006. The reports do not indicate what brand of grater it was or if it was related to the one that surfaced in Michigan.

cobalt-60 also tainted a 430,000-pound shipment of metal from Brazil in 1998. Part of that load found its way to Michigan and then Indiana, where it was used to make brackets for 1,000 La-Z-Boy recliners.

The contamination was detected by a radiation monitor when scrap leftover from the brackets job was shipped to the Butler, Ind., steel recycler Steel Dynamics, according to NRC documents.

The cobalt-60 tainted Reclina-Rocker chairs, which would have given off a chest X-ray's worth of radiation every 1,000 hours, were still in warehouses when the contamination was discovered, and never made it to stores or living rooms, according to Rex Bowser, director of the Indoor Air and Radiological Health Emergency Response Program of the Indiana State Department of Health.

The recliners' radiation levels were "enough above background to be a concern for people sitting in La-Z-Boy chairs," Bowser said.

http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/forum/218/thousands-consumer-products-found-contain-low-levels-radiation.2012-07-15

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 07:29 PM

45. K&R...it's a good discussion from OP and the Rest of it.."in our times."

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Response to HiPointDem (Original post)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 07:43 PM

46. WTF?? Unfreakinbelievable!!

WHAT NEXT?? Radiation in our cereal, milk, shampoos & soaps???

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