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Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:33 PM

"Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men…"

"Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men, we didn't have any kind of prison.

Because of this, we had no delinquents. Without a prison, there can be no delinquents.

We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves. When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket, he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift.

We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property. We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being was not determined by his wealth.

We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians, therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another.

We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society."


John (Fire) Lame Deer

http://quotationsbook.com/quote/46693/

122 replies, 17535 views

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Reply "Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men…" (Original post)
MrScorpio Feb 2013 OP
NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #1
KittyWampus Feb 2013 #27
Matariki Feb 2013 #51
Veri1138 Feb 2013 #81
Brigid Feb 2013 #2
malaise Feb 2013 #6
dsc Feb 2013 #3
white_wolf Feb 2013 #5
Warpy Feb 2013 #8
Dragonfli Feb 2013 #24
BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2013 #57
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #67
mikekohr Feb 2013 #110
Exultant Democracy Feb 2013 #4
Coyotl Feb 2013 #7
mikekohr Feb 2013 #116
Coyotl Feb 2013 #120
Octafish Feb 2013 #9
Beartracks Feb 2013 #19
treestar Feb 2013 #10
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #68
Bandit Feb 2013 #98
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #105
treestar Feb 2013 #104
dbackjon Feb 2013 #99
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #11
madokie Feb 2013 #12
AlbertCat Feb 2013 #15
zeemike Feb 2013 #32
Recursion Feb 2013 #34
zeemike Feb 2013 #36
Recursion Feb 2013 #39
zeemike Feb 2013 #52
cabot Feb 2013 #40
Javaman Feb 2013 #85
mikekohr Feb 2013 #111
Recursion Feb 2013 #35
Peter cotton Feb 2013 #43
Zorra Feb 2013 #62
Recursion Feb 2013 #64
madokie Feb 2013 #83
Recursion Feb 2013 #84
madokie Feb 2013 #88
mikekohr Feb 2013 #103
mikekohr Feb 2013 #86
Recursion Feb 2013 #87
mikekohr Feb 2013 #101
Recursion Feb 2013 #102
mikekohr Feb 2013 #106
savannah43 Feb 2013 #94
Recursion Feb 2013 #96
mikekohr Feb 2013 #107
Ikonoklast Feb 2013 #97
hobbit709 Feb 2013 #13
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #14
hobbit709 Feb 2013 #16
AlbertCat Feb 2013 #18
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #20
iamthebandfanman Feb 2013 #23
alterfurz Feb 2013 #89
AlbertCat Feb 2013 #17
gtar100 Feb 2013 #63
AlbertCat Feb 2013 #115
gtar100 Feb 2013 #117
cemaphonic Feb 2013 #74
Peter cotton Feb 2013 #21
cantbeserious Feb 2013 #22
Peter cotton Feb 2013 #41
cantbeserious Feb 2013 #59
Peter cotton Feb 2013 #78
cantbeserious Feb 2013 #80
msanthrope Feb 2013 #118
Peter cotton Feb 2013 #121
datasuspect Feb 2013 #79
Orsino Feb 2013 #93
lunamagica Feb 2013 #25
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #30
Recursion Feb 2013 #33
mikekohr Feb 2013 #108
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #71
KittyWampus Feb 2013 #26
jtuck004 Feb 2013 #28
Nye Bevan Feb 2013 #29
mikekohr Feb 2013 #109
Recursion Feb 2013 #31
X_Digger Feb 2013 #47
Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #37
Matariki Feb 2013 #50
mikekohr Feb 2013 #114
DeadEyeDyck Feb 2013 #38
moondust Feb 2013 #42
Peter cotton Feb 2013 #44
moondust Feb 2013 #54
ananda Feb 2013 #45
CBGLuthier Feb 2013 #46
Matariki Feb 2013 #49
Matariki Feb 2013 #48
ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #53
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #72
City of Mills Feb 2013 #55
Recursion Feb 2013 #56
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #70
Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #76
Matariki Feb 2013 #77
BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2013 #58
Nolimit Feb 2013 #60
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #73
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #61
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #65
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #75
struggle4progress Feb 2013 #100
alterfurz Feb 2013 #91
mikekohr Feb 2013 #113
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #66
quakerboy Feb 2013 #69
mikekohr Feb 2013 #82
Brickbat Feb 2013 #90
toby jo Feb 2013 #92
niyad Feb 2013 #95
mikekohr Feb 2013 #112
msanthrope Feb 2013 #119
mikekohr Feb 2013 #122

Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:35 PM

1. K/R. Also, there was not such thing as "property", as we know it.


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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:39 PM

27. There most certainly WAS property as we know it. It was owned, allocated and protected by the tribe.

And the tribe derived legal authority via religion.

There weren't any written papers documenting this though.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:56 PM

51. That's actually not true.

Here in the northwest, individuals had personal ownership of things such as mussel beds, productive patches of land, and other human beings as slaves. It's true.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:11 AM

81. And gold was considered to be useless...

 

... also referred to as "shit of the gods" until the White Man showed up.

Gold bugs and gold-backed money enthusiasts always tout the history of gold as a currency. Well, only in geographically connected areas outside of North and South America. Gold is a certain Euro-Asian-African mental affliction. A gold-based money is also easily manipulated - just ask what the French where doing to the dollar starting after 1968 that prompted Nixon to take the dollar off the gold standard.

It has certain industrial applications. You can't eat it.

Consider that one man has 100kg of gold and you have 100kg of food. The man is starving. You are not. How much could you sell 1kg of food for? All the gold of the fool.

It is bright and shiny. People like shinies. Much like babies like baubles.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:37 PM

2. So who's really the more "civilized" race?

Gotta love Native American wisdom.

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Response to Brigid (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:42 PM

6. You see

I'd say the one who was a part of the environment and not the one who dominated and destroyed everything in his path.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:37 PM

3. didn't the league of Iriquois predate the white man coming to America?

If so, then at least some native Americans had politicians.

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Response to dsc (Reply #3)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:40 PM

5. I think it did.

In fact I've heard some people say that the League influenced the U.S. founders when it came time to set up the government. Of course, they'd never admit to that so they claimed Rome as their main influence.

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Response to dsc (Reply #3)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:45 PM

8. Old and wise men were their politicians

and they were wise enough to respect the Grandmother Lodge. The old and wise women had the final say on things like going to war against a neighboring tribe. It allowed them to stay a lot more peaceful than warring tribes and peace allowed them to become very prosperous.

Alcohol, disease and raging sexism were the great gifts Europeans brought to the west. Tobacco was how the tribes retaliated.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:19 PM

24. They also had the wisdom to give representation to the 7th generation regarding all decisions

The seventh generation represented the future tribe "7 generations out" at least. How something was going to effect these future tribes-people was not only considered, but given a proxy vote.

If we were as wise perhaps we would not have traded our children's environment for immediate profit and comfort, perhaps we would then not now be facing extinction by our own hand.

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Response to Dragonfli (Reply #24)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 08:20 PM

57. you speak truth.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #8)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:29 AM

67. kind of like every other pre-industrial culture.

 

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Response to dsc (Reply #3)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:09 PM

110. Yes, it remains the second oldest representative parliament in the World

The constitution of the United States is based in part on "The Great Binding Law," of the League of Iroquois, 6). 19).which was formed sometime around the years 1090 and 1150 AD. The Haudenosaunee parliament is the second oldest representative parliament in the world second only to Iceland's, Althing, founded in 930 AD.75).

The first person to propose a union of the original colonies was the Iroquois leader, Canassatego, at an Indian-British convention in Pennsylvania in July of 1744. 6).

In 1754 the gathering of founding fathers that wrote the Albany plan, was held in Albany at the request of the Iroquois Grand Council. Forty-two members of the Grand Council were in attendance to act as advisors to the founding fathers in founding a confederacy. 6). 19).

The English Proclamation of 1763 was a primary reason that the Colonists choose to over throw the yoke of British rule. The proclamation forbid further land grants to settlers in the areas west of the Allegany Mountains. Having access to Indian land cut off by the proclamation infuriated many colonists.1).
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/interestingfacts.html

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:40 PM

4. Part true, for some groups of NA, lots of bullshit too. NA had slavery

had currency and had tons of politicians in fact. Some of my favorite NA mythology is about politicians.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:45 PM

7. " there was not a thief, nor a vicious man, nor an adulteress, nor was a bad woman ..."

In Cuzco on Sept. 18, 1589, the last survivor of the original conquerors of Peru, Don Mancio Serra de Leguisamo, wrote in the preamble of his will the following in parts:

"e found these kingdoms in such good order, and the said Incas governed them in such wise that throughout them there was not a thief, nor a vicious man, nor an adulteress, nor was a bad woman admitted among them, nor were there immoral people. The men had honest and useful occupations. The lands, forests, mines, pastures, houses and all kinds of products were regulated and distributed in such sort that each one knew his property without any other person seizing it or occupying it, nor were there law suits respecting it...

"...the motive which obliges me to make this statement is the discharge of my conscience, as I find myself guilty. For we have destroyed by our evil example, the people who had such a government as was enjoyed by these natives. They were so free from the committal of crimes or excesses, as well men as women, that the Indian who had 100,000 pesos worth of gold or silver in his house, left it open merely placing a small stick against the door, as a sign that its master was out. With that, according to their custom, no one could enter or take anything that was there. When they saw that we put locks and keys on our doors, they supposed that it was from fear of them, that they might not kill us, but not because they believed that anyone would steal the property of another. So that when they found that we had thieves among us, and men who sought to make their daughters commit sin, they despised us." (Markham 300)

According to Spanish records the 'number of souls under their jurisdiction' fell from about 1.5 million in 1561 to 600,000 in 1796 (including European descendants). Prior to 1561 it is estimated more than 75% of the native population perished due to small pox, measles and influenzas introduced by the Europeans. Famines also took their toll due to the disruptions of economic and social life. In some provinces fully two-thirds of the population was conscripted to work in silver mines, where most perished. By 1800, the population was reduced to one-tenth the aboriginal level, if not far less.


Tupac Amaru,
The Life, Times, and Execution of the Last Inca
http://jqjacobs.net/andes/tupac_amaru.html

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #7)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:01 PM

116. We Indians are Latin America's moral reserve. We act according to a universal law that consists of

three basic principles: do not steal, do not lie and do not be idle.
~ Evo Morales

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Response to mikekohr (Reply #116)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 12:26 PM

120. Right on!

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:53 PM

9. Talking to Owls and Butterflies

EXCERPT...

That’s where you fooled yourselves. You have not only altered, declawed and malformed your winged and four-legged cousins; you have done it to yourselves. You have changed men into chairmen of boards, into office workers, into time-clock punchers. You have changed women into housewives, truly fearful creatures. I was once invited into the home of such a one.

"Watch the ashes, don't smoke, you stain the curtains. Watch the goldfish bowl, don't breathe on the parakeet, don't lean your head against the wallpaper; your hair may be greasy. Don't spill liquor on that table: it has a delicate finish. You should have wiped your boots; the floor was just varnished. Don't, don't, don't..." That is crazy. We weren't made to endure this. You live in prisons which you have built for yourselves, calling them "homes", offices, factories. We have a new joke on the reservation:
"What is cultural deprivation?" Answer: "Being an upper-middle-class white kid living in a split-level suburban home with a color TV."

http://hengruh.livejournal.com/189020.html

Infinite thanks for this thread, Mr. Scorpio!

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Response to Octafish (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:19 PM

19. Reminds me of "Black Elk Speaks."

Thanks for the link.

===================

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:57 PM

10. True but they would have, eventually

There are advantages to the organization of society. No need pretending there aren't.

Hard to believe there were no thieves. We are talking about humans, aren't we? Tribes shared all things, so did white tribes in their time most likely.

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Response to treestar (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:33 AM

68. not much advantage in being a thief when you depend on your tribe for everything, so you're

 

basically stealing from yourself. in a small group not much advantage in stealing, being lazy, trying to 'get over' -- everyone knows you and your reputation is everything.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #68)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:07 PM

98. So no other tribes were ever involved in one's life?

Tribes used to raid other tribes for their women and for their valuables all the time.. To say they did not is just an out and out LIE.

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Response to Bandit (Reply #98)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:48 PM

105. what is your problem? i'm obviously talking about within one's own tribe. and. fyi. there are

 

plenty of tribal groups that didn't raid other tribes 'all the time'.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #68)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:42 PM

104. I got to visit Uluru

and we learned from the guides about the Aboriginal tribe there - they shared everything. One of the formations on the rock was about the story children learn that if you hunt an animal, you must share it. If you don't, then others will come after you. It was a lesson about greed.

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Response to treestar (Reply #10)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:19 PM

99. That part is total BS

Tribes raided and enslaved each other all the time.

Navajo and Hopis still are mortal enemies.


Native Americans are humans, like the rest of us - same strengths and weaknesses as anyone else.

There are good Natives, and very evil ones, no different than any other race.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:01 PM

11. Whatever did they do without Walmart? nm

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:01 PM

12. Of all the people thoughtout history the American Indian is my favorite

They lived their lives in tune with mother nature.

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Response to madokie (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:13 PM

15. They lived their lives in tune with mother nature.

No they didn't!

They effected their environments plenty.

And Native Americans include Incas and Aztecs and their huge civilization.... there were politicians, thieves,.... canibalism... "total war".... in North America too.

It wasn't all a big bed of warm fuzzy roses. This "noble savage" myth is just that.... a myth.

I don't have anything against Native Americans or their civilizations, and the White men were just awful... but both were humans, y'know.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:00 PM

32. Yes they had wars and conflict just like all humans do

But the difference is remarkable in that in a war with a neighboring tribe the war was won by who counted the most coup....and to count cope all you needed to do was touch our enemy...a really big war was one where one man was killed.
And it was the introduction of horses that started the Indian wars....it was like our cold war, the race was on to get the most horses.
The difference was dramatic, and tragic for them.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #32)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:04 PM

34. Counting coup was limited to a few Plains nations, and developed long after contact with whites

It's a practice that was pretty much limited to cavalry (and so was necessarily post-Columbian), and the biggest coup was to steal your enemy's horse.

Eastern seaboard and southern woodlands nations practiced total war (kill all the men and enslave all the women and children). Not exactly pretty stuff.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #34)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:14 PM

36. "developed long after contact with whites"

What is your source for that?
There is no written record so you must have gotten it from speculation.
The objective was to sneak up on your enemy and touch him...and it is pretty hard to sneak up on a horse.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #39)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:58 PM

52. I am sure that is a good book

But it only covers 150 years...horses came to this continent in the early 17th century.
My point is that it is more likely that counting coup was more useful without horses and may have been used before them and adapted to horse warfare not invented for it.

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:19 PM

40. Thank you!

You're right. And like all humans, Native Americans had their assholes, too. I'm so sick of the "noble savage" myth.

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Response to cabot (Reply #40)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:06 AM

85. Another tidbit that is often neglected to be mentioned is...

while the Europeans gave the Native Americans smallpox, the Native Americans gave the Europeans Syphilis.

tit for tat.

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Response to Javaman (Reply #85)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:17 PM

111. Columbus noted in his journals that young girls of the ages 9 to 10 were the most desired by his men

Taino People were levied taxes of food, cotton, and forced sex. Columbus would casually note in his journals that young girls of the ages 9 to 10 were the most desired by his men. 1) A story recorded by Michele de Cuneo is frightening proof of this abomination. After Columbus and his men fought a battle on Santa Cruz with a small band of Native People, Columbus presented Michele de Cuneo with a captured Taino girl that de Cuneo described as, "....most beautiful." The young maiden was taken by de Cuneo to his cabin where the young woman defended herself so fiercely that de Cuneo wrote, "...I wished I had never started. But to tell you the end of it, I seized a rope and beat her well. She cried out in such a way that you would not believe it! Finally we reached an agreement...." 40)

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#Christopher Columbus

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Response to madokie (Reply #12)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:05 PM

35. They hunted every mammal larger than the bison to extinction

and clear-cut huge sections of forest (there are more trees in the US today than in 1620).

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Response to Recursion (Reply #35)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:31 PM

43. Including horses...

 

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Response to Recursion (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:02 AM

62. LOL! Killed off the dinosaurs too, I reckon. Maybe even caused the ice age with all those campfirea!

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Response to Zorra (Reply #62)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:15 AM

64. No, the dinosaurs were 65 million years before humans

Though there is in fact some evidence that the deforestation of north America by the first nations had a pretty significant impact on world climate

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Response to Recursion (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:56 AM

83. I don't think you know what you're talking about

You going to make statements as this I want to see some proof
Hunted the animals to extinction and clear cut the forest, LOL

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Response to Recursion (Reply #84)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:19 AM

88. Really

From the first link: 'The real answer is that scientists do not know for sure' concerning the hunting to extinction

Second link is bull too. They built big dams too didn't they. What a crock

you believe what you want

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Response to madokie (Reply #83)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:42 PM

103. It is easier to justify the disposession and near extirmination of a People when you marginalize

and debase them. Tactics like this are as old as mankind itself. Tune in Rush Limbuagh for thirty seconds for a quick, albeit nauseating course on how to demonize the powerless and weak.

1492

Christopher Columbus:
"So tractable, so peaceable, are these people that I swear to your Majesties there is not in the world a better nation. They love their neighbors as themselves, and their discourse is ever sweet and gentle, and accompanied with a smile; and though it is true that they are naked, yet their manners are decorous and praiseworthy." 1)

"The King observes such a wonderful estate in such a dignified manner that it is a pleasure to see. Neither better people nor land can there be. The houses and villages are so pretty. They love their neighbors as themselves and they have the sweetest speech in the world and they are gentle and they are always laughing" 1) -The Old Navigator, Christopher Columbus-


When Columbus left Hispaniola he rewarded the Taino people by kidnaping 25 of them, and selling the handful of survivors into slavery. 1). 40).

"In the name of the Holy Trinity, we can send from here all the slaves and brazil wood which could be sold."
-Christopher Columbus, 1496, in a letter to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella - 1)

On Columbus's second voyage, he returned with 17 heavily armed ships 1500 men, cannon, guns, crossbows, and attack dogs. All of which he used to fulfill his wishes of conquest of these "Children of God." After his attempts of conquest and enslavement were met with resistance his descriptions of these people became less complementary. 39) 1) 64)

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#Christopher Columbus

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Response to Recursion (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:11 AM

86. Or perhaps massive climate change was the culprit, but let's blame the Indians anyway

Native People were here 28,000 to 38,0000 years ago. The massive die off of large mammals did not occur until about 17,000 years ago when the climate dramatically and suddenly (in geological terms) changed.

Native people did indeed manage the forests and grasslands which produced an environment that supported massive numbers of wildlife. That balanced eco-system was wiped away in large part within a few hundred years of the arrival of Europeans.

There were an estimated 40-60 million bison in the United States when Columbus was rescuded by the Taino People in 1492 after wrecking his flagship, the Santa Maria. By the early 1800's the estimated 20 million bison east of the Mississippi were extirminated. The remaining 20-40 million bison west of the Mississippi were reduced to about 250 by 1890.

There was also an estimated 18 to 22 million Native People living in what is now the United States. By 1900 approx. 250,000 remained.

Ceratinly between 1492 and 1890 something very evil happened. What could that have possibly have been?


from the webpage: "Your Heroes Are Not Our Heroes."
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#GENERAL PHILLIP SHERIDAN:
GENERAL WILLIAM T. SHERMAN:
In a telegram to President U.S. Grant, "First kill off the buffalo, then kill off the Indian. We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, men, women, and children."

Ever the ruthless soldier and never one that could be mistaken as an "Indian lover," Sherman, never-the-less, was also quoted in his astute observation when he described a reservation as, "...a parcel of land inhabited by Indians and surrounded by thieves."

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Response to mikekohr (Reply #86)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:14 AM

87. The earliest evidence found is 18kya. Where are you getting 28k-38k?

I've never seen anything earlier than 18kya, what have you seen suggesting earlier migration? For that matter, other than a few coprolites here and there the extinction pattern is the main thing that human expansion patterns within the continent are dated by.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #87)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:32 PM

101. Monte Verde site in Chile may date to 33,000 BP

source for that is the excellent work "The First Americans," by J.M. Adovasio and Jake Page published by Modern Library out of NY, NY. This book destroys the "Clovis First Theory," and lays waste to a century of calcified science that denys the obvious, that the human presence in the Western Hemisphere is far longer and more varied than previously postulated.

You would be well served if you also read "1491, New Revelations of the America's Before Columbus," written by Charles C. Mann, published by Vantage Press a division of Random House Inc..

The extinctions that occurred here, approx. 11,000 to 17,000 AFTER the arrival of man, also occurred simultaneously across the globe and coincided with the end of the last ice age and rapid climate change. Did man play some role in that extinction? Certainly. But the in ability of the mega fauna to adapt to that climate change most likely played a far larger role.

Look to Wrangle Island. There, undisturbed by human hunters, mammoths survived until 4,000 years or so ago. They mutated into miniature versions of their ice age cousins in response to limited forage but in the end went extinct anyway.

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Response to mikekohr (Reply #101)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:38 PM

102. I love how you assume I haven't read Mann

I'll look at Adovasio & Page, but every few years somebody comes up with a crackpot theory that puts humans in the Americas much earlier than any physical evidence suggests they were.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #102)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:49 PM

106. You asked for a source and now you turn the posting of the source

into a personal attack on yourself and of course dish out an unsourced attack on the material in question. You should read their work again. Hrdlicka would be so proud of you.

For one so quick to smear so many others with so broad a brush you take a punch quite poorly.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:26 PM

94. What animal, at that time, was bigger than a bison and

on the American continent? And if bison were hunted to extinction, why are they still here? Huh? As Bugs would say, what a maroon!

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Response to savannah43 (Reply #94)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:50 PM

96. Bison are clearly not bigger than the bison

The ground sloth, mammoth, and several of the caribou.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #96)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:55 PM

107. Bison are far larger than Caribou, even Sarah Palin knows this

The females usually measure 162–205 cm (64–81 in) in length and weigh 80–120 kg (180–260 lb). The males (or "bulls") are typically larger (although the extent to which varies in the different subspecies), measuring 180–214 cm (71–84 in) in length and usually weighing 159–182 kg (350–400 lb), though exceptionally large males have weighed as much as 318 kg (700 lb). Shoulder height typically measure from 85 to 150 cm (33 to 59 in), and the tail is 14 to 20 cm (5.5 to 7.9 in) long. The subspecies R. t. platyrhynchus from Svalbard island is very small compared to other subspecies (a phenomenon known as insular dwarfism), with females having a length of approximately 150 cm (59 in), and a weight around 53 kg (120 lb) in the spring and 70 kg (150 lb) in the autumn. Males are approximately 160 cm (63 in) long, and weigh around 65 kg (140 lb) in the spring and 90 kg (200 lb) in the autumn. The reindeer from Svalbard are also relatively short-legged and may have a shoulder height of as little as 80 cm (31 in), thereby following Allen's rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reindeer

Bison bulls routinely reach weights in excess of 2,000 pounds and can reach up to 2,500 pounds.

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Response to savannah43 (Reply #94)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:51 PM

97. The megafauna of the North American continent included mammoths, giant ground sloths, mastodons...

Lots of animals much bigger than bison.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/end-big-beasts.html

Interesting hypotheses as to what may have happened.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:02 PM

13. Before the white man came, there were no horses.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #13)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:12 PM

14. Well, that certainly makes the demise of the NA Indian all worthwhile, doesn't it? nt.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:14 PM

16. Just pointing out that horse were an invasive species, just like many others that came with them

If you want to twist it into that then go ahead.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #16)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:19 PM

18. horse were an invasive species,

So was man...for that matter

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:32 PM

20. Humans on the earth are like bacteria on the surface of an orange....

....They spread just as fast and are just as damaging.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #20)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:18 PM

23. par·a·site

par·a·site
Show IPA

noun
1.
an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #20)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:33 AM

89. "The earth is an organism, and that organism has a skin; that skin has diseases...

...and one of these diseases is man." -- Nietzsche

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #13)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:18 PM

17. Before the white man came, there were no horses.

Or small pox!


But seriously, do people really believe in that "noble savage" stuff these days?

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #17)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:13 AM

63. To put it that way, no. But there is a great deal of respect for their close relationship with

nature. It's indisputable that the rivers ran cleaner, the air was cleaner and their overall impact on the land was miniscule compared to Europeans. It's disingenuous to dismiss that respect because of shortcomings and cruelties that are unfortunately common to pretty much all people. There was no utopia here but our culture could learn some very important lessons from them. We have no excuse but basic human greed and ignorance for over-running and destroying the lives and cultures that existed here prior to the European takeover of the Americas. So don't lay out falsely narrow choices.

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Response to gtar100 (Reply #63)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:35 PM

115. So don't lay out falsely narrow choices.

You mean like all Native Americans were the same?

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Response to AlbertCat (Reply #115)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:40 AM

117. Haha Like all Americans today are the same.

Agreed. One size never fits all.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:14 AM

74. There were horses in NA until around the time that the natives crossed over from Siberia.

The cause of their extinction isn't known, but the timing is awfully suggestive.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:37 PM

21. Over-romanticized twaddle.

 

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Response to Peter cotton (Reply #21)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:41 PM

22. Would One Want To Elaborate On The Profundity Of "Over-romanticized twaddle"?

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #22)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:24 PM

41. Over-romanticized twaddle lacks profundity by definition.

 

Hence my characterization of it as such.

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Response to Peter cotton (Reply #41)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:03 PM

59. A Recursive Definition - Not Very Illuminating

eom

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Response to cantbeserious (Reply #59)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 06:13 AM

78. On the contrary.

 

You asked me to elaborate on the profundity of something that I described as over-romanticized twaddle...but my description of it as such means I'm asserting that it lacks profundity. Why would I discuss at length the characteristics of something that I've just pointed out doesn't exist?

You could have asked me why I called it twaddle in the first place, but that would be a different question entirely.

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Response to Peter cotton (Reply #78)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:24 AM

80. We Will Have To Agree To Disagree

eom

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Response to Peter cotton (Reply #78)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 08:47 AM

118. Welcome to DU. I look forward to more of your posts. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #118)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 01:38 PM

121. Thanks!

 

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Response to Peter cotton (Reply #41)


Response to Peter cotton (Reply #21)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:21 PM

93. Couching some essential truths...

...but yes, twaddle in part.

It is utterly ridiculous to suppose that cheating and swindling didn't exist before written laws, or that Native Americans didn't have laws or property. Or that every tribe or nation's culture was identical to every other's.

To romanticize a people into something else is to dehumanize them.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:33 PM

25. Weren't there 500 nations? Did all of them have the same laws and way of life? Did all of them get

along?

And how were women treated by the tribes?

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Response to lunamagica (Reply #25)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:55 PM

30. IIRC, most if not all Native American tribes were essentially matriarchal.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:01 PM

33. There were a few, but most were patriarchal and practiced a warrior cult

When the Puritans arrived in Massachusetts, they joined an already-existing genocidal war between the Pequot and Narragansett.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:59 PM

108. PILGRIMS, PURITANS, CHRISTIANS, COLONISTS:


In 1636, eager to appropriate land belonging to the Pequot people, an alliance was formed with the Narragansett People. Surrounding a Peqout village on the site of present day Mystic, Connecticut, this force promptly set fire to the village and put to the sword all those that attempted escape. In an hours time seven were taken captive, seven escaped and between 600 to 700 lay dead. 31). 77).

William Bradford described the slaughter in these words, "It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying in the fire, and the streams of blood quenching the same, and horrible was the stink and stench thereof; but the victory seemed a sweet sacrifice and they gave praise thereof to God." 1)

The Narragansetts were mortified at the slaughter and pleaded in vain to Captain John Underhill, "It is naught, it is naught, because it is too furious and slays too many men." 1) The humanitarian concerns of the Narragansetts were rebuked. And in their witnessing the slaughter of the Pequot, the Narragansetts saw a portent and vision of what would befall their people in a few short years at the hands of the rapidly expanding colonies.

Underhill would later justify the killing of women and children by quoting the Holy Bible, "Sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents." 31)

It was not enough to merely slaughter the Pequot people . Hoping to wipe their memory from history, laws were passed making it a crime to even utter the word Pequot. These efforts to shape history have only been partially successful. There are those that remember and are aware.

On December 19th 1675, six days before the celebration of Christmas, an armed force was lead into battle against the once friendly Wampanoag people, at the place that was to become known as, "The Great Swamp Massacre."

The Wampanoags, .were no longer willing to yield land to the rapidly growing colonies. This transgression would be dealt with forcefully. In the early morning hours this army attacked a sleeping village of mostly women, children, and old people. Setting fire to the village homes, and burning the Wampanoag people to death. Over 2000 Wampanoag People were slaughtered at this place.

One Christian soldier, sickened by the stench of burning flesh and horrified by the screams of the dying,, asked of his commander, "Is burning alive, men, women, and children, consistent with the benevolent principles of the Gospel?" 12).

Increase Mather rejoiced in his writing, that when survivors of this massacre "....came to see the ashes of their friends, mingled with the ashes of their fort.... where the English had been doing a good day's work, they Howl'd, they Roar'd, they Stamp'd, they tore their hair,.... and were the pictures of so many Devils in Desperation." 31)

The leader of the Wampanoag, Metacomet, a man the colonists called King Phillip, was killed shortly afterward. The body of Metacomet was drawn and quartered. Metacomet's severed head, was impaled on a iron spike which was driven into the ramparts of a bridge. This ghastly trophy remained upon the bridge for the next twenty years, a warning to those that might oppose the will and wishes of the Colonists. 12)

Those Wampanoag, unfortunate to be captured alive, were placed on a slave ship bound for the Bahama's and sold into slavery, yielding a handsome profit for the colonies. Metacomet's wife and children were among those sent into slavery. They were never to see their homeland again.

Many rationalize the wars between the colonists and their Native neighbors as conflicts that resulted from two cultures that did not understand one another. This thinking is often stated along with the idea that if the Native People would have just adapted to the "superior" culture of the European people then all conflict would have been mitigated. Examination of the "Blue Laws," refutes this thinking.

The "Blue Laws" were designed not to "elevate" the Native People to the European concept of civilization but rather to reduce Native People to a level less than human. Among the various "Blue Laws" were statutes whose intent was to reduce social association of White and Native People.

Many within colonial communities, found the Native way of life more desirable than that of their own. These "converts" lived with and adopted the dress and life-ways of their Native neighbors. To eliminate this threat from within, the "Blue Laws" forbade the wearing of Native dress, they forbade the practice of Native spiritual belief by both White AND Native Peoples, it was forbidden to wear ones hair long in the fashion of the Native People. Those that were convicted of violating these laws could expect the death penalty. 31) 1)

But perhaps most telling of all, in part as a result of the legacy of the "Blue Laws", the Massachusetts legislature in 1789 passed a law that forbade the teaching of reading and writing to the Native People. Violators of this law were also subject to the penalty of death. 1)

Today America recoils in horror as it examines the religious extremism and intolerance of the Taliban legacy in Afghanistan. But we forget that we once had a Taliban in America, they were called Pilgrims, Puritans, and Colonists, and we honor and feast their memory each year at the holiday of Thanksgiving.

It is an ironic facet of the American Myth that the Pilgrims and Puritans are popularly held forth as an example of a people setting out in search of religious tolerance and cultural freedom. In truth these Europeans set out for a place were they would ultimately enforce their own version of religious, cultural and political correctness upon others.

While there was a degree of cultural misunderstanding between the colonists and their Native benefactors, the understanding that did exist was far more complete than many would have us believe. But one conclusion is inescapable. The colonists understood that Native People stood in the way of their appropriation of land needed for expansion of the growing colonies. The Pilgrims, the Puritans, and their compatriots, like the other European people that followed them to America, would use any excuse, any method conceivable to take the land they desired.
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#The Pilgrims

reprinted here with permission of author, Mike Kohr

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #30)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:05 AM

71. no such generalization can be made. there's a wide variation in time and space.

 

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:36 PM

26. Before individual property rights, property belonged to tribes. You'd no choice but adhere to tribal

law. That included laws on who you could marry. And all tribal law predicates upon religion.

There are pluses and minuses on both sides of this divide.

Don't romantize tribal life.

Edit to add- but it is great to gather information and learn from others. And appreciate the differences. See what we can learn from each other.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #26)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:40 PM

28. "Don't romantize tribal life." - Seems to work pretty well for the wealthy. n/t

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:41 PM

29. Did they have plumbing, sewerage and heating systems?

Like the ancient Romans?

And if they didn't believe in private property, how come they sold the island of Manhattan?

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:02 PM

109. Yes, see Central Mexico circa 1400, as to the theft of Manhattan

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2013, 05:44 PM - Edit history (1)

PETER MINUIT: Hailed by history as the man who bought Manhattan Island for 24 dollars worth of beads and trinkets. The actual story is somewhat different.
Minuit approached the residents of Manhattan island, the Weckquaesgeeks, and explained to them that the Dutch wished to buy their homeland .The Weckquaesgeeks were not willing to sell. This did not deter the determined and intrepid Minuit. Minuit then went before the Canarsees, a neighboring tribe, and offered them payment for the homeland of the Weckquaesgeeks.

The concept of land ownership was foreign to Native People and it is unclear if the Canarsees understood that accepting payment for their neighbor's land would give the Dutch the rationalization they were looking for to forcibly remove the Weckquaesgeeks from their ancestral homeland. It is clear however, that the Dutch knowingly defrauded the Weckquaesgeeks out of their homeland and then waged warfare against them to complete the fraud.

Today the "sale" of Manhattan to the Dutch for twenty-four dollars worth of beads and trinkets is humorously put forth as "evidence" of the naiveté of Native People. History seldom mentions the fraudulent actions of the Dutch and even less frequently mentions that the original inhabitants of Manhattan, the Weckquaesgeeks, were forcibly removed from their homelands by the Dutch. 1)

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#PETER MINUIT

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:59 PM

31. The First Nations practiced genocidal warfare, slavery, and hunted species to extinction

Also, there were no horses in America before the Europeans came

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Response to Recursion (Reply #31)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:49 PM

47. Shh, the noble savage, in perfect harmony with nature and each other shall not be questioned.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:20 PM

37. I like the drift of this

Unfortunately, most of it is not true. Kind of ironic that a Rousseauian construct (the "noble savage") would go on to become a central element in native american self-perception.

Study the Iroquois - the conclusion will be that they were not fundamentally different. Their story is the story of the evolution of all humankind in all places through all ages, the same challenges, problems, stories of success and defeat... For me, that makes the way they lived even more remarkable: yes, they had their equivalent of criminals, etc. and their ways of dealing with them are quite enlightening...

As with all human societies - there's many things to be envious of from today's perspective, but there's also lots of terrible shit that none of us minds living without.

They do not have to be mythical, romantic superheros in order to warrant our interest and admiration. They deserve it as those whom they were: Fragile human beings like us taking the wild ride of life and trying to make something out of it.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #37)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:53 PM

50. Ah, I read your post after writing my own

You put it so much better.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #37)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:05 PM

114. Great Post. nt

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:46 PM

38. Well I dated this beautiful Seminole,

and she delivered a flaming case of clap to this German born, black man.
kind of makes me think she was selling redemption.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:28 PM

42. A reminder

that the Matrix is not some natural, God-given order but an authoritarian construct created by men largely to enrich themselves. Manifest Destiny lives on in the world view of neocons/PNAC/Republicans.

K/R

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Response to moondust (Reply #42)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:36 PM

44. The Matrix?

 

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Response to Peter cotton (Reply #44)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:28 PM

54. LOL

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:39 PM

45. Thank you for this.

I just posted it on my FB wall.

Oh my, how the truth hits home sometimes!

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:44 PM

46. How to Write the Great American Indian Novel

All of the Indians must have tragic features: tragic noses, eyes, and arms.
Their hands and fingers must be tragic when they reach for tragic food.

The hero must be a half-breed, half white and half Indian, preferably
from a horse culture. He should often weep alone. That is mandatory.

If the hero is an Indian woman, she is beautiful. She must be slender
and in love with a white man. But if she loves an Indian man

then he must be a half-breed, preferably from a horse culture.
If the Indian woman loves a white man, then he has to be so white

that we can see the blue veins running through his skin like rivers.
When the Indian woman steps out of her dress, the white man gasps

at the endless beauty of her brown skin. She should be compared to nature:
brown hills, mountains, fertile valleys, dewy grass, wind, and clear water.

If she is compared to murky water, however, then she must have a secret.
Indians always have secrets, which are carefully and slowly revealed.

Yet Indian secrets can be disclosed suddenly, like a storm.
Indian men, of course, are storms. The should destroy the lives

of any white women who choose to love them. All white women love
Indian men. That is always the case. White women feign disgust

at the savage in blue jeans and T-shirt, but secretly lust after him.
White women dream about half-breed Indian men from horse cultures.

Indian men are horses, smelling wild and gamey. When the Indian man
unbuttons his pants, the white woman should think of topsoil.

There must be one murder, one suicide, one attempted rape.
Alcohol should be consumed. Cars must be driven at high speeds.

Indians must see visions. White people can have the same visions
if they are in love with Indians. If a white person loves an Indian

then the white person is Indian by proximity. White people must carry
an Indian deep inside themselves. Those interior Indians are half-breed

and obviously from horse cultures. If the interior Indian is male
then he must be a warrior, especially if he is inside a white man.

If the interior Indian is female, then she must be a healer, especially if she is inside
a white woman. Sometimes there are complications.

An Indian man can be hidden inside a white woman. An Indian woman
can be hidden inside a white man. In these rare instances,

everybody is a half-breed struggling to learn more about his or her horse culture.
There must be redemption, of course, and sins must be forgiven.

For this, we need children. A white child and an Indian child, gender
not important, should express deep affection in a childlike way.

In the Great American Indian novel, when it is finally written,
all of the white people will be Indians and all of the Indians will be ghosts.


Sherman Alexie

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #46)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:51 PM

49. Very nice.

Sherman Alexie is an awesome writer!

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:49 PM

48. That's a very romanticized view.

I kind of doubt that things were all that idyllic. Any much more so than European culture, people being what they are, wherever they are.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:17 PM

53. I don't romanticize Native Americans

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:21 AM - Edit history (1)

But I do wonder what would to them have happened if allowed to develop without genocide. It doesn't necessarily follow that they would have gone the way of the West or East, with its massive conquering warfare. Many bands had developed a type of socialism already. They had crafts, orchards, many skills of course. More importantly they're religions weren't religions as we know them---religions of submission and fear. Even the word religion doesn't necessarily apply

Many bands had tribal councils rather than a single leader. Women, had a political voice in many bands.

One thing to remember is we are talking about many diverse peoples with ways of their own. What white people did, besides wholesale murder, was kill off a potential culture that might have looked very different than what we have today, a more egalitarian way of life and governing if Native Americans had been allowed to develop and grow.

We'll never know now. There is a band in the northwest-- the Duwamish people, who were first to greet the whites and welcome them when the ship hit the shore. To this day they are denied recognition as a tribe. The attempts genocide continues with a thousand cuts in the legal system.t

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #53)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:07 AM

72. most tribal societies are socialistic. it's kind of a feature.

 

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:33 PM

55. What I see in this thread

Quite a few people who read Lame Deer's words but missed the message.

Quite a few people who dismiss this quote (from a tribal member) as a 'romanticized' view of Indian culture, while they themselves were not around at the time and get their 'information' from books written by white people and 'historians'.

I find it interesting how many people have responded to this thread.

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Response to City of Mills (Reply #55)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 08:13 PM

56. Lame Deer wasn't around at the time either

I'm not sure why a group's traditions about itself should take priority over actual historians' research, either.

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Response to City of Mills (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:02 AM

70. I think it's ironic that you say so, considering that Lame Deer spent most of his life living

 

'white' until the 60s, at which time he turned into an Indian shaman type and met up with an Austrian writer at MLK's March on Washington and collaborated with him to write some books.

An assignment for Life in 1967 took Erdoes to the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation for the first time, and marked the beginning of the work for which he would be best known. Erdoes was fascinated by Native American culture, outraged at the conditions on the reservation and deeply moved by the struggle for civil rights that was raging at the time. He wrote histories, collections of Native American stories and myths, and developed profound editor/collaborator creative partnerships with such voices of the Native American Renaissance as Leonard and Mary Crow Dog and John Fire Lame Deer. The Erdoes' New York City apartment was a well known hub of the American Indian Movement (AIM) in the early 1970s and he became involved in the legal defense of several AIM members. In 1975 the family moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico where Erdoes continued to write and remained active in the movement for Native American civil rights

"Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions" came out 4 years after Carlos Castenada's first book.

There is no way to separate the authentic from the romantized at such a time, in such a climate.

Great sioux reservation was created in 1868; rosebud was a division of that, in 1889. Lame deer never experienced the pre-contact, pre-reservation life he talked about.



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Response to City of Mills (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:35 AM

76. Where, pray, would I find indian history but in books - written by "red", "white", "historian" and

layman?

Pray tell us what other esoteric source of knowledge there is that is insightful enough to allow for snarky comments`?

All of us who have studied the issue merely relying on books are dying to know!

"Romanticized" has a concrete, non-perjorative meaning in this context. It is not used to denigrate anyone. The "noble savage" is an invention of white "historians" (social philosophers such as Rousseau and others) and should be regarderd as nothing more than that: Romance.

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Response to City of Mills (Reply #55)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:43 AM

77. I'm confused

Is 'information' in quotes the kind you *don't* pull out of your ass?

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 08:38 PM

58. well, I'm getting an education from this thread.

Great thread!

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:48 PM

60. A lot of imperialist nostalgia here.

nt.

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Response to Nolimit (Reply #60)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:08 AM

73. so true. white people just love indians -- now.

 

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:59 PM

61. They recieved their spiritual enlightenment from Aliens and Bigfoots

 

I mean, as long as we are just making shit up, I figure we aught to go all out.

Or maybe, and this is just a thought, but maybe we should put aside ALL the faerie tales -- including the Disney Native Americans who lived in peace and harmony with the universe -- and instead focus on making this world a better place.

We don't need imaginary Native Americans to tell us that we shouldn't allow a few to own everything. We know this already. We know we should take care of one another. We know we should stop killing ourselves and the planet. We know we should value educating and knowlege. We know we should put aside the magical thinking.

As Gandolf the Wizard so famously said, "Use the force Harry!"

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:16 AM

65. Desmond Tutu: "When the white man came, they had the Bible, and we had the land. And they said,

Let us pray. So we closed our eyes and prayed. And when we opened our eyes, we had the Bible, and they had the land"

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #75)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:31 PM

100. thanx!

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Response to struggle4progress (Reply #65)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:13 AM

91. Tecumseh on the white man's religion:

"When Jesus Christ came upon the Earth, you killed Him. The son of your own God.... And only after He was dead did you worship Him and start killing those who would not."

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Response to alterfurz (Reply #91)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:40 PM

113. Tecumseh's Creed

"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and
demand that they respect yours.

Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek
to make your life long and it's purpose in the service of your people.
Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great
divide.

Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend,
even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and
bow to none.

When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the food and the joy of
living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself.

Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs
the spirit of it's vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those
whose hearts. Are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes
they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in
a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."

TECUMSEH -Shawnee-
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/TecumsehsCreed.html

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:27 AM

66. absence of locks, private property, prisons, etc isn't specific to native americans; it's the usual

 

situation with a particular level of technology, population concentration, and economic surplus.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:55 AM

69. I was once informed by an african immigrant

that his country had no mental illness, because the village elders wouldn't allow things to get that far.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:53 AM

82. Ronald Reagan on Native Americans

RONALD REAGAN: The Great Communicator:

While campaigning in South Dakota during the 1980 presidential campaign, candidate Reagan promised to uphold treaty law and to fulfill America's obligation to Native People. Reagan quickly broke these promises upon becoming President. As president, Reagan cut funding to Indian programs in unprecedented proportions.
Indian Appropriations accounted for .04% of the federal budget when Reagan took office In 1982 2.5% of all federal budget cuts came entirely from that meager .04% of the Federal budget. 77).

Reagan's Secretary of the Interior, James Watt, called Indians "social misfits" whose homelands were "examples of the failure of socialism." 31).

While visiting Russia, Reagan was questioned about the status of Native Americans. Reagan responded with the following paternalistic, insulting, and indefensible, display of ignorance and confusion:
"Let me tell you just a little something about the American Indian in our land. We have provided millions of acres for what are called preservations, or the reservations I should say. They from the beginning, announced that they wanted to maintain their way of life as they had always lived, there in the desert and the plains and so forth, and we set up these reservations so they could and had a Bureau of Indian Affairs to help take care of them, at the same time we provide education for them, schools on the reservations, and they are free, also, to leave the reservations and be American citizens among the rest of us, and many do. Some still prefer, however, that early way of life and we've done everything we can to meet their demands on how they want to live. Maybe we made a mistake. Maybe we should not have humored them in that wanting to stay in that kind of primitive lifestyle. Maybe we should have said, 'No, come join us, be citizens. "31).

In all fairness, Reagan was probably unaware of the level of understanding and concern for Native Americans by people outside our country's borders. He was obviously caught off-guard and un-prepared, which explains in part, the nearly incoherent syntax and bewildering logic of his answer. However, his lack of understanding of history, his insensitivity, his Euro-centric sense of superiority, his disdain for Native culture and Native People, was to our collective shame, a fair representation of the nation and the people he served as president.

From the webpage: "YOUR HEROES ARE NOT OUR HEROES" http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#RONALD REAGAN:

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:55 AM

90. Unless you belonged to another tribe.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:13 AM

92. The quote is romantic - a longing for a heritage that was torn, instead of let to evolve.

These folks are free to live on their res any way they choose, but for lack of a will to recapture, or to be continent with the 'olde' ways, they too often simply shoot for a smug imperial attitude. I know an old Shaman from a NY res Chief Mike, who is the gentlest and kindest of souls. I listened to a recent recording he's made of a songfest they held 1/yr wherein all the shaman got together and prayed (sang) for 12 straight hours. It was just stunningly beautiful. It took my breath away.

I also dated an Indian from a res in NC who was a violent, alcoholic mess. He hated the res and the people on it - called them a bunch of drunks, wife-beaters, and child molesters.

They're human, like the rest of us.

European disease killed off the majority of Indians, but then, they might have had a disease that killed us off and we would have had to basically keep taking the shit of imperialists in the old country. Luck of the draw.

Another note - things would have gone alot more harmoniously if our own Shamanic culture of Paganism hadn't been conquered and demonized by the Christians. We would have had an insight in common with the redman.

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:39 PM

95. thank you

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:38 PM

112. This was posted By Randy Isbister, my Native friend from Saskatchewan, on my Facebook Page

I can't stop thinking about the truth. the differences between my grandparents and yours. Some of your grand parents came to this country and had it rough and they still managed. This is the truth. And I hear some ask the question "My grandparents did it, why didn't yours?"

The truth is...My grand parents were not legally allowed to leave the reserve. My grand parents could not go out into the cities, so, that is part of the reason. My grand parents had to hand my parents over to a residential school and if they refused they were thrown in jail. It was the law back then. That is another part of the reason.

If your grand parents were treated this way HERE in this country, would things have turned out different for you? Women were allowed to vote before my Parents and Grand Parents were allowed to vote. There are many of you who can count in your language. There are people in my family who cannot count to 10 in their own native tongue. My Grand Parents were at a disadvantage that your grand parents never knew. This is why we are idle no more.

Randy had this to add: "My grandparents were forced to send my mother to residential school. The year I was born, my mother and grandparents still did not have the right to vote. Harper is attempting to rid the nation of the indian problem."
Idle No More

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Response to MrScorpio (Original post)

Tue Feb 26, 2013, 09:13 AM

119. This is the kind of sentimental tripe that appeals to people who didn't pay attention in their

History classes, and accept without question a facile and glib interpretation of native culture. This non-contemporaneous account of tribal life is nostalgic only to those who have never bothered to read the actual histories of the first peoples in North America. Real people are far more complex--hell, read about the Lakota/Crow Wars and learn how our military took pointers.

Tribal life was repressive, bloody, and conformist. Inter-tribal relations were marked with indiscriminate killing, rape, slavery, and subjugation.

I get the political reasons why an AIM member from the 1970s might wish to write this propaganda that uses the "noble savage" meme as a critique of "white" culture, but this is bullshit.

What the US government did to the first peoples of this nation is horrific, and the injustice continues. But platitudes that romanticize complex social groups are what I would expect on the back of a Harlequin novel.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #119)

Wed Feb 27, 2013, 07:59 AM

122. You should read "Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions." from which the lead post was taken

The quote would make much more sense to you if you do. If you already have, read it again.

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