Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

MrScorpio

(73,610 posts)
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:33 PM Feb 2013

"Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men…"

"Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men, we didn't have any kind of prison.

Because of this, we had no delinquents. Without a prison, there can be no delinquents.

We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves. When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket, he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift.

We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property. We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being was not determined by his wealth.

We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians, therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another.

We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society."


John (Fire) Lame Deer

http://quotationsbook.com/quote/46693/

122 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
"Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men…" (Original Post) MrScorpio Feb 2013 OP
K/R. Also, there was not such thing as "property", as we know it. NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #1
There most certainly WAS property as we know it. It was owned, allocated and protected by the tribe. KittyWampus Feb 2013 #27
That's actually not true. Matariki Feb 2013 #51
And gold was considered to be useless... Veri1138 Feb 2013 #81
So who's really the more "civilized" race? Brigid Feb 2013 #2
You see malaise Feb 2013 #6
didn't the league of Iriquois predate the white man coming to America? dsc Feb 2013 #3
I think it did. white_wolf Feb 2013 #5
Old and wise men were their politicians Warpy Feb 2013 #8
They also had the wisdom to give representation to the 7th generation regarding all decisions Dragonfli Feb 2013 #24
you speak truth. BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2013 #57
kind of like every other pre-industrial culture. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #67
Yes, it remains the second oldest representative parliament in the World mikekohr Feb 2013 #110
Part true, for some groups of NA, lots of bullshit too. NA had slavery Exultant Democracy Feb 2013 #4
" there was not a thief, nor a vicious man, nor an adulteress, nor was a bad woman ..." Coyotl Feb 2013 #7
We Indians are Latin America's moral reserve. We act according to a universal law that consists of mikekohr Feb 2013 #116
Right on! Coyotl Feb 2013 #120
Talking to Owls and Butterflies Octafish Feb 2013 #9
Reminds me of "Black Elk Speaks." Beartracks Feb 2013 #19
True but they would have, eventually treestar Feb 2013 #10
not much advantage in being a thief when you depend on your tribe for everything, so you're HiPointDem Feb 2013 #68
So no other tribes were ever involved in one's life? Bandit Feb 2013 #98
what is your problem? i'm obviously talking about within one's own tribe. and. fyi. there are HiPointDem Feb 2013 #105
I got to visit Uluru treestar Feb 2013 #104
That part is total BS dbackjon Feb 2013 #99
Whatever did they do without Walmart? nm rhett o rick Feb 2013 #11
Of all the people thoughtout history the American Indian is my favorite madokie Feb 2013 #12
They lived their lives in tune with mother nature. AlbertCat Feb 2013 #15
Yes they had wars and conflict just like all humans do zeemike Feb 2013 #32
Counting coup was limited to a few Plains nations, and developed long after contact with whites Recursion Feb 2013 #34
"developed long after contact with whites" zeemike Feb 2013 #36
This book is a good start Recursion Feb 2013 #39
I am sure that is a good book zeemike Feb 2013 #52
Thank you! cabot Feb 2013 #40
Another tidbit that is often neglected to be mentioned is... Javaman Feb 2013 #85
Columbus noted in his journals that young girls of the ages 9 to 10 were the most desired by his men mikekohr Feb 2013 #111
They hunted every mammal larger than the bison to extinction Recursion Feb 2013 #35
Including horses... Peter cotton Feb 2013 #43
LOL! Killed off the dinosaurs too, I reckon. Maybe even caused the ice age with all those campfirea! Zorra Feb 2013 #62
No, the dinosaurs were 65 million years before humans Recursion Feb 2013 #64
I don't think you know what you're talking about madokie Feb 2013 #83
Really? Recursion Feb 2013 #84
Really madokie Feb 2013 #88
It is easier to justify the disposession and near extirmination of a People when you marginalize mikekohr Feb 2013 #103
Or perhaps massive climate change was the culprit, but let's blame the Indians anyway mikekohr Feb 2013 #86
The earliest evidence found is 18kya. Where are you getting 28k-38k? Recursion Feb 2013 #87
Monte Verde site in Chile may date to 33,000 BP mikekohr Feb 2013 #101
I love how you assume I haven't read Mann Recursion Feb 2013 #102
You asked for a source and now you turn the posting of the source mikekohr Feb 2013 #106
What animal, at that time, was bigger than a bison and savannah43 Feb 2013 #94
Bison are clearly not bigger than the bison Recursion Feb 2013 #96
Bison are far larger than Caribou, even Sarah Palin knows this mikekohr Feb 2013 #107
The megafauna of the North American continent included mammoths, giant ground sloths, mastodons... Ikonoklast Feb 2013 #97
Before the white man came, there were no horses. hobbit709 Feb 2013 #13
Well, that certainly makes the demise of the NA Indian all worthwhile, doesn't it? nt. OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #14
Just pointing out that horse were an invasive species, just like many others that came with them hobbit709 Feb 2013 #16
horse were an invasive species, AlbertCat Feb 2013 #18
Humans on the earth are like bacteria on the surface of an orange.... OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #20
par·a·site iamthebandfanman Feb 2013 #23
"The earth is an organism, and that organism has a skin; that skin has diseases... alterfurz Feb 2013 #89
Before the white man came, there were no horses. AlbertCat Feb 2013 #17
To put it that way, no. But there is a great deal of respect for their close relationship with gtar100 Feb 2013 #63
So don't lay out falsely narrow choices. AlbertCat Feb 2013 #115
Haha Like all Americans today are the same. gtar100 Feb 2013 #117
There were horses in NA until around the time that the natives crossed over from Siberia. cemaphonic Feb 2013 #74
Over-romanticized twaddle. Peter cotton Feb 2013 #21
Would One Want To Elaborate On The Profundity Of "Over-romanticized twaddle"? cantbeserious Feb 2013 #22
Over-romanticized twaddle lacks profundity by definition. Peter cotton Feb 2013 #41
A Recursive Definition - Not Very Illuminating cantbeserious Feb 2013 #59
On the contrary. Peter cotton Feb 2013 #78
We Will Have To Agree To Disagree cantbeserious Feb 2013 #80
Welcome to DU. I look forward to more of your posts. nt msanthrope Feb 2013 #118
Thanks! Peter cotton Feb 2013 #121
This message was self-deleted by its author datasuspect Feb 2013 #79
Couching some essential truths... Orsino Feb 2013 #93
Weren't there 500 nations? Did all of them have the same laws and way of life? Did all of them get lunamagica Feb 2013 #25
IIRC, most if not all Native American tribes were essentially matriarchal. kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #30
There were a few, but most were patriarchal and practiced a warrior cult Recursion Feb 2013 #33
PILGRIMS, PURITANS, CHRISTIANS, COLONISTS: mikekohr Feb 2013 #108
no such generalization can be made. there's a wide variation in time and space. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #71
Before individual property rights, property belonged to tribes. You'd no choice but adhere to tribal KittyWampus Feb 2013 #26
"Don't romantize tribal life." - Seems to work pretty well for the wealthy. n/t jtuck004 Feb 2013 #28
Did they have plumbing, sewerage and heating systems? Nye Bevan Feb 2013 #29
Yes, see Central Mexico circa 1400, as to the theft of Manhattan mikekohr Feb 2013 #109
The First Nations practiced genocidal warfare, slavery, and hunted species to extinction Recursion Feb 2013 #31
Shh, the noble savage, in perfect harmony with nature and each other shall not be questioned. X_Digger Feb 2013 #47
I like the drift of this Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #37
Ah, I read your post after writing my own Matariki Feb 2013 #50
Great Post. nt mikekohr Feb 2013 #114
Well I dated this beautiful Seminole, DeadEyeDyck Feb 2013 #38
A reminder moondust Feb 2013 #42
The Matrix? Peter cotton Feb 2013 #44
LOL moondust Feb 2013 #54
Thank you for this. ananda Feb 2013 #45
How to Write the Great American Indian Novel CBGLuthier Feb 2013 #46
Very nice. Matariki Feb 2013 #49
That's a very romanticized view. Matariki Feb 2013 #48
I don't romanticize Native Americans ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #53
most tribal societies are socialistic. it's kind of a feature. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #72
What I see in this thread City of Mills Feb 2013 #55
Lame Deer wasn't around at the time either Recursion Feb 2013 #56
I think it's ironic that you say so, considering that Lame Deer spent most of his life living HiPointDem Feb 2013 #70
Where, pray, would I find indian history but in books - written by "red", "white", "historian" and Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #76
I'm confused Matariki Feb 2013 #77
well, I'm getting an education from this thread. BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2013 #58
A lot of imperialist nostalgia here. Nolimit Feb 2013 #60
so true. white people just love indians -- now. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #73
They recieved their spiritual enlightenment from Aliens and Bigfoots Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #61
Desmond Tutu: "When the white man came, they had the Bible, and we had the land. And they said, struggle4progress Feb 2013 #65
not original to tutu. e.g. here's a book from 1976: HiPointDem Feb 2013 #75
thanx! struggle4progress Feb 2013 #100
Tecumseh on the white man's religion: alterfurz Feb 2013 #91
Tecumseh's Creed mikekohr Feb 2013 #113
absence of locks, private property, prisons, etc isn't specific to native americans; it's the usual HiPointDem Feb 2013 #66
I was once informed by an african immigrant quakerboy Feb 2013 #69
Ronald Reagan on Native Americans mikekohr Feb 2013 #82
Unless you belonged to another tribe. Brickbat Feb 2013 #90
The quote is romantic - a longing for a heritage that was torn, instead of let to evolve. toby jo Feb 2013 #92
thank you niyad Feb 2013 #95
This was posted By Randy Isbister, my Native friend from Saskatchewan, on my Facebook Page mikekohr Feb 2013 #112
This is the kind of sentimental tripe that appeals to people who didn't pay attention in their msanthrope Feb 2013 #119
You should read "Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions." from which the lead post was taken mikekohr Feb 2013 #122
 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
27. There most certainly WAS property as we know it. It was owned, allocated and protected by the tribe.
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:39 PM
Feb 2013

And the tribe derived legal authority via religion.

There weren't any written papers documenting this though.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
51. That's actually not true.
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:56 PM
Feb 2013

Here in the northwest, individuals had personal ownership of things such as mussel beds, productive patches of land, and other human beings as slaves. It's true.

 

Veri1138

(61 posts)
81. And gold was considered to be useless...
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:11 AM
Feb 2013

... also referred to as "shit of the gods" until the White Man showed up.

Gold bugs and gold-backed money enthusiasts always tout the history of gold as a currency. Well, only in geographically connected areas outside of North and South America. Gold is a certain Euro-Asian-African mental affliction. A gold-based money is also easily manipulated - just ask what the French where doing to the dollar starting after 1968 that prompted Nixon to take the dollar off the gold standard.

It has certain industrial applications. You can't eat it.

Consider that one man has 100kg of gold and you have 100kg of food. The man is starving. You are not. How much could you sell 1kg of food for? All the gold of the fool.

It is bright and shiny. People like shinies. Much like babies like baubles.

malaise

(267,461 posts)
6. You see
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:42 PM
Feb 2013

I'd say the one who was a part of the environment and not the one who dominated and destroyed everything in his path.

dsc

(52,117 posts)
3. didn't the league of Iriquois predate the white man coming to America?
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:37 PM
Feb 2013

If so, then at least some native Americans had politicians.

white_wolf

(6,238 posts)
5. I think it did.
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:40 PM
Feb 2013

In fact I've heard some people say that the League influenced the U.S. founders when it came time to set up the government. Of course, they'd never admit to that so they claimed Rome as their main influence.

Warpy

(110,746 posts)
8. Old and wise men were their politicians
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:45 PM
Feb 2013

and they were wise enough to respect the Grandmother Lodge. The old and wise women had the final say on things like going to war against a neighboring tribe. It allowed them to stay a lot more peaceful than warring tribes and peace allowed them to become very prosperous.

Alcohol, disease and raging sexism were the great gifts Europeans brought to the west. Tobacco was how the tribes retaliated.

Dragonfli

(10,622 posts)
24. They also had the wisdom to give representation to the 7th generation regarding all decisions
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:19 PM
Feb 2013

The seventh generation represented the future tribe "7 generations out" at least. How something was going to effect these future tribes-people was not only considered, but given a proxy vote.

If we were as wise perhaps we would not have traded our children's environment for immediate profit and comfort, perhaps we would then not now be facing extinction by our own hand.

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
110. Yes, it remains the second oldest representative parliament in the World
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:09 PM
Feb 2013

The constitution of the United States is based in part on "The Great Binding Law," of the League of Iroquois, 6). 19).which was formed sometime around the years 1090 and 1150 AD. The Haudenosaunee parliament is the second oldest representative parliament in the world second only to Iceland's, Althing, founded in 930 AD.75).

The first person to propose a union of the original colonies was the Iroquois leader, Canassatego, at an Indian-British convention in Pennsylvania in July of 1744. 6).

In 1754 the gathering of founding fathers that wrote the Albany plan, was held in Albany at the request of the Iroquois Grand Council. Forty-two members of the Grand Council were in attendance to act as advisors to the founding fathers in founding a confederacy. 6). 19).

The English Proclamation of 1763 was a primary reason that the Colonists choose to over throw the yoke of British rule. The proclamation forbid further land grants to settlers in the areas west of the Allegany Mountains. Having access to Indian land cut off by the proclamation infuriated many colonists.1).
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/interestingfacts.html

Exultant Democracy

(6,594 posts)
4. Part true, for some groups of NA, lots of bullshit too. NA had slavery
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:40 PM
Feb 2013

had currency and had tons of politicians in fact. Some of my favorite NA mythology is about politicians.

 

Coyotl

(15,262 posts)
7. " there was not a thief, nor a vicious man, nor an adulteress, nor was a bad woman ..."
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:45 PM
Feb 2013

In Cuzco on Sept. 18, 1589, the last survivor of the original conquerors of Peru, Don Mancio Serra de Leguisamo, wrote in the preamble of his will the following in parts:

"[W]e found these kingdoms in such good order, and the said Incas governed them in such wise that throughout them there was not a thief, nor a vicious man, nor an adulteress, nor was a bad woman admitted among them, nor were there immoral people. The men had honest and useful occupations. The lands, forests, mines, pastures, houses and all kinds of products were regulated and distributed in such sort that each one knew his property without any other person seizing it or occupying it, nor were there law suits respecting it...

"...the motive which obliges me to make this statement is the discharge of my conscience, as I find myself guilty. For we have destroyed by our evil example, the people who had such a government as was enjoyed by these natives. They were so free from the committal of crimes or excesses, as well men as women, that the Indian who had 100,000 pesos worth of gold or silver in his house, left it open merely placing a small stick against the door, as a sign that its master was out. With that, according to their custom, no one could enter or take anything that was there. When they saw that we put locks and keys on our doors, they supposed that it was from fear of them, that they might not kill us, but not because they believed that anyone would steal the property of another. So that when they found that we had thieves among us, and men who sought to make their daughters commit sin, they despised us." (Markham 300)

According to Spanish records the 'number of souls under their jurisdiction' fell from about 1.5 million in 1561 to 600,000 in 1796 (including European descendants). Prior to 1561 it is estimated more than 75% of the native population perished due to small pox, measles and influenzas introduced by the Europeans. Famines also took their toll due to the disruptions of economic and social life. In some provinces fully two-thirds of the population was conscripted to work in silver mines, where most perished. By 1800, the population was reduced to one-tenth the aboriginal level, if not far less.


Tupac Amaru,
The Life, Times, and Execution of the Last Inca
http://jqjacobs.net/andes/tupac_amaru.html

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
116. We Indians are Latin America's moral reserve. We act according to a universal law that consists of
Tue Feb 26, 2013, 12:01 AM
Feb 2013

three basic principles: do not steal, do not lie and do not be idle.
~ Evo Morales

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
9. Talking to Owls and Butterflies
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:53 PM
Feb 2013

EXCERPT...

That’s where you fooled yourselves. You have not only altered, declawed and malformed your winged and four-legged cousins; you have done it to yourselves. You have changed men into chairmen of boards, into office workers, into time-clock punchers. You have changed women into housewives, truly fearful creatures. I was once invited into the home of such a one.

"Watch the ashes, don't smoke, you stain the curtains. Watch the goldfish bowl, don't breathe on the parakeet, don't lean your head against the wallpaper; your hair may be greasy. Don't spill liquor on that table: it has a delicate finish. You should have wiped your boots; the floor was just varnished. Don't, don't, don't..." That is crazy. We weren't made to endure this. You live in prisons which you have built for yourselves, calling them "homes", offices, factories. We have a new joke on the reservation:
"What is cultural deprivation?" Answer: "Being an upper-middle-class white kid living in a split-level suburban home with a color TV."

http://hengruh.livejournal.com/189020.html

Infinite thanks for this thread, Mr. Scorpio!

treestar

(82,383 posts)
10. True but they would have, eventually
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:57 PM
Feb 2013

There are advantages to the organization of society. No need pretending there aren't.

Hard to believe there were no thieves. We are talking about humans, aren't we? Tribes shared all things, so did white tribes in their time most likely.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
68. not much advantage in being a thief when you depend on your tribe for everything, so you're
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:33 AM
Feb 2013

basically stealing from yourself. in a small group not much advantage in stealing, being lazy, trying to 'get over' -- everyone knows you and your reputation is everything.

Bandit

(21,475 posts)
98. So no other tribes were ever involved in one's life?
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:07 PM
Feb 2013

Tribes used to raid other tribes for their women and for their valuables all the time.. To say they did not is just an out and out LIE.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
105. what is your problem? i'm obviously talking about within one's own tribe. and. fyi. there are
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:48 PM
Feb 2013

plenty of tribal groups that didn't raid other tribes 'all the time'.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
104. I got to visit Uluru
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:42 PM
Feb 2013

and we learned from the guides about the Aboriginal tribe there - they shared everything. One of the formations on the rock was about the story children learn that if you hunt an animal, you must share it. If you don't, then others will come after you. It was a lesson about greed.

 

dbackjon

(6,578 posts)
99. That part is total BS
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:19 PM
Feb 2013

Tribes raided and enslaved each other all the time.

Navajo and Hopis still are mortal enemies.


Native Americans are humans, like the rest of us - same strengths and weaknesses as anyone else.

There are good Natives, and very evil ones, no different than any other race.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
12. Of all the people thoughtout history the American Indian is my favorite
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:01 PM
Feb 2013

They lived their lives in tune with mother nature.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
15. They lived their lives in tune with mother nature.
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:13 PM
Feb 2013

No they didn't!

They effected their environments plenty.

And Native Americans include Incas and Aztecs and their huge civilization.... there were politicians, thieves,.... canibalism... "total war".... in North America too.

It wasn't all a big bed of warm fuzzy roses. This "noble savage" myth is just that.... a myth.

I don't have anything against Native Americans or their civilizations, and the White men were just awful... but both were humans, y'know.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
32. Yes they had wars and conflict just like all humans do
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:00 PM
Feb 2013

But the difference is remarkable in that in a war with a neighboring tribe the war was won by who counted the most coup....and to count cope all you needed to do was touch our enemy...a really big war was one where one man was killed.
And it was the introduction of horses that started the Indian wars....it was like our cold war, the race was on to get the most horses.
The difference was dramatic, and tragic for them.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
34. Counting coup was limited to a few Plains nations, and developed long after contact with whites
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:04 PM
Feb 2013

It's a practice that was pretty much limited to cavalry (and so was necessarily post-Columbian), and the biggest coup was to steal your enemy's horse.

Eastern seaboard and southern woodlands nations practiced total war (kill all the men and enslave all the women and children). Not exactly pretty stuff.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
36. "developed long after contact with whites"
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:14 PM
Feb 2013

What is your source for that?
There is no written record so you must have gotten it from speculation.
The objective was to sneak up on your enemy and touch him...and it is pretty hard to sneak up on a horse.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
52. I am sure that is a good book
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:58 PM
Feb 2013

But it only covers 150 years...horses came to this continent in the early 17th century.
My point is that it is more likely that counting coup was more useful without horses and may have been used before them and adapted to horse warfare not invented for it.

cabot

(724 posts)
40. Thank you!
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:19 PM
Feb 2013

You're right. And like all humans, Native Americans had their assholes, too. I'm so sick of the "noble savage" myth.

Javaman

(62,394 posts)
85. Another tidbit that is often neglected to be mentioned is...
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:06 AM
Feb 2013

while the Europeans gave the Native Americans smallpox, the Native Americans gave the Europeans Syphilis.

tit for tat.

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
111. Columbus noted in his journals that young girls of the ages 9 to 10 were the most desired by his men
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:17 PM
Feb 2013

Taino People were levied taxes of food, cotton, and forced sex. Columbus would casually note in his journals that young girls of the ages 9 to 10 were the most desired by his men. 1) A story recorded by Michele de Cuneo is frightening proof of this abomination. After Columbus and his men fought a battle on Santa Cruz with a small band of Native People, Columbus presented Michele de Cuneo with a captured Taino girl that de Cuneo described as, "....most beautiful." The young maiden was taken by de Cuneo to his cabin where the young woman defended herself so fiercely that de Cuneo wrote, "...I wished I had never started. But to tell you the end of it, I seized a rope and beat her well. She cried out in such a way that you would not believe it! Finally we reached an agreement...." 40)

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#Christopher Columbus

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
35. They hunted every mammal larger than the bison to extinction
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:05 PM
Feb 2013

and clear-cut huge sections of forest (there are more trees in the US today than in 1620).

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
62. LOL! Killed off the dinosaurs too, I reckon. Maybe even caused the ice age with all those campfirea!
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:02 AM
Feb 2013

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
64. No, the dinosaurs were 65 million years before humans
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:15 AM
Feb 2013

Though there is in fact some evidence that the deforestation of north America by the first nations had a pretty significant impact on world climate

madokie

(51,076 posts)
83. I don't think you know what you're talking about
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:56 AM
Feb 2013

You going to make statements as this I want to see some proof
Hunted the animals to extinction and clear cut the forest, LOL

madokie

(51,076 posts)
88. Really
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:19 AM
Feb 2013

From the first link: 'The real answer is that scientists do not know for sure' concerning the hunting to extinction

Second link is bull too. They built big dams too didn't they. What a crock

you believe what you want

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
103. It is easier to justify the disposession and near extirmination of a People when you marginalize
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:42 PM
Feb 2013

and debase them. Tactics like this are as old as mankind itself. Tune in Rush Limbuagh for thirty seconds for a quick, albeit nauseating course on how to demonize the powerless and weak.

1492

Christopher Columbus:
"So tractable, so peaceable, are these people that I swear to your Majesties there is not in the world a better nation. They love their neighbors as themselves, and their discourse is ever sweet and gentle, and accompanied with a smile; and though it is true that they are naked, yet their manners are decorous and praiseworthy." 1)

"The King [the leader or "chief"] observes such a wonderful estate in such a dignified manner that it is a pleasure to see. Neither better people nor land can there be. The houses and villages are so pretty. They love their neighbors as themselves and they have the sweetest speech in the world and they are gentle and they are always laughing" 1) -The Old Navigator, Christopher Columbus-


When Columbus left Hispaniola he rewarded the Taino people by kidnaping 25 of them, and selling the handful of survivors into slavery. 1). 40).

"In the name of the Holy Trinity, we can send from here all the slaves and brazil wood which could be sold."
-Christopher Columbus, 1496, in a letter to King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella - 1)

On Columbus's second voyage, he returned with 17 heavily armed ships 1500 men, cannon, guns, crossbows, and attack dogs. All of which he used to fulfill his wishes of conquest of these "Children of God." After his attempts of conquest and enslavement were met with resistance his descriptions of these people became less complementary. 39) 1) 64)

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#Christopher Columbus

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
86. Or perhaps massive climate change was the culprit, but let's blame the Indians anyway
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:11 AM
Feb 2013

Native People were here 28,000 to 38,0000 years ago. The massive die off of large mammals did not occur until about 17,000 years ago when the climate dramatically and suddenly (in geological terms) changed.

Native people did indeed manage the forests and grasslands which produced an environment that supported massive numbers of wildlife. That balanced eco-system was wiped away in large part within a few hundred years of the arrival of Europeans.

There were an estimated 40-60 million bison in the United States when Columbus was rescuded by the Taino People in 1492 after wrecking his flagship, the Santa Maria. By the early 1800's the estimated 20 million bison east of the Mississippi were extirminated. The remaining 20-40 million bison west of the Mississippi were reduced to about 250 by 1890.

There was also an estimated 18 to 22 million Native People living in what is now the United States. By 1900 approx. 250,000 remained.

Ceratinly between 1492 and 1890 something very evil happened. What could that have possibly have been?


from the webpage: "Your Heroes Are Not Our Heroes."
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#GENERAL PHILLIP SHERIDAN:
GENERAL WILLIAM T. SHERMAN:
In a telegram to President U.S. Grant, "First kill off the buffalo, then kill off the Indian. We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sioux, men, women, and children."

Ever the ruthless soldier and never one that could be mistaken as an "Indian lover," Sherman, never-the-less, was also quoted in his astute observation when he described a reservation as, "...a parcel of land inhabited by Indians and surrounded by thieves."

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
87. The earliest evidence found is 18kya. Where are you getting 28k-38k?
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:14 AM
Feb 2013

I've never seen anything earlier than 18kya, what have you seen suggesting earlier migration? For that matter, other than a few coprolites here and there the extinction pattern is the main thing that human expansion patterns within the continent are dated by.

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
101. Monte Verde site in Chile may date to 33,000 BP
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:32 PM
Feb 2013

source for that is the excellent work "The First Americans," by J.M. Adovasio and Jake Page published by Modern Library out of NY, NY. This book destroys the "Clovis First Theory," and lays waste to a century of calcified science that denys the obvious, that the human presence in the Western Hemisphere is far longer and more varied than previously postulated.

You would be well served if you also read "1491, New Revelations of the America's Before Columbus," written by Charles C. Mann, published by Vantage Press a division of Random House Inc..

The extinctions that occurred here, approx. 11,000 to 17,000 AFTER the arrival of man, also occurred simultaneously across the globe and coincided with the end of the last ice age and rapid climate change. Did man play some role in that extinction? Certainly. But the in ability of the mega fauna to adapt to that climate change most likely played a far larger role.

Look to Wrangle Island. There, undisturbed by human hunters, mammoths survived until 4,000 years or so ago. They mutated into miniature versions of their ice age cousins in response to limited forage but in the end went extinct anyway.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
102. I love how you assume I haven't read Mann
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:38 PM
Feb 2013

I'll look at Adovasio & Page, but every few years somebody comes up with a crackpot theory that puts humans in the Americas much earlier than any physical evidence suggests they were.

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
106. You asked for a source and now you turn the posting of the source
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:49 PM
Feb 2013

into a personal attack on yourself and of course dish out an unsourced attack on the material in question. You should read their work again. Hrdlicka would be so proud of you.

For one so quick to smear so many others with so broad a brush you take a punch quite poorly.

savannah43

(575 posts)
94. What animal, at that time, was bigger than a bison and
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:26 PM
Feb 2013

on the American continent? And if bison were hunted to extinction, why are they still here? Huh? As Bugs would say, what a maroon!

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
107. Bison are far larger than Caribou, even Sarah Palin knows this
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:55 PM
Feb 2013

The females usually measure 162–205 cm (64–81 in) in length and weigh 80–120 kg (180–260 lb).[16] The males (or "bulls&quot are typically larger (although the extent to which varies in the different subspecies), measuring 180–214 cm (71–84 in) in length and usually weighing 159–182 kg (350–400 lb),[16] though exceptionally large males have weighed as much as 318 kg (700 lb).[16] Shoulder height typically measure from 85 to 150 cm (33 to 59 in), and the tail is 14 to 20 cm (5.5 to 7.9 in) long. The subspecies R. t. platyrhynchus from Svalbard island is very small compared to other subspecies (a phenomenon known as insular dwarfism), with females having a length of approximately 150 cm (59 in), and a weight around 53 kg (120 lb) in the spring and 70 kg (150 lb) in the autumn.[17] Males are approximately 160 cm (63 in) long, and weigh around 65 kg (140 lb) in the spring and 90 kg (200 lb) in the autumn.[17] The reindeer from Svalbard are also relatively short-legged and may have a shoulder height of as little as 80 cm (31 in),[17] thereby following Allen's rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reindeer

Bison bulls routinely reach weights in excess of 2,000 pounds and can reach up to 2,500 pounds.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
97. The megafauna of the North American continent included mammoths, giant ground sloths, mastodons...
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:51 PM
Feb 2013

Lots of animals much bigger than bison.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/end-big-beasts.html

Interesting hypotheses as to what may have happened.

hobbit709

(41,694 posts)
16. Just pointing out that horse were an invasive species, just like many others that came with them
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:14 PM
Feb 2013

If you want to twist it into that then go ahead.

OldDem2012

(3,526 posts)
20. Humans on the earth are like bacteria on the surface of an orange....
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:32 PM
Feb 2013

....They spread just as fast and are just as damaging.

iamthebandfanman

(8,127 posts)
23. par·a·site
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:18 PM
Feb 2013

par·a·site
[par-uh-sahyt] Show IPA

noun
1.
an organism that lives on or in an organism of another species, known as the host, from the body of which it obtains nutriment.

alterfurz

(2,466 posts)
89. "The earth is an organism, and that organism has a skin; that skin has diseases...
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:33 AM
Feb 2013

...and one of these diseases is man." -- Nietzsche

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
17. Before the white man came, there were no horses.
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:18 PM
Feb 2013

Or small pox!


But seriously, do people really believe in that "noble savage" stuff these days?

gtar100

(4,192 posts)
63. To put it that way, no. But there is a great deal of respect for their close relationship with
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:13 AM
Feb 2013

nature. It's indisputable that the rivers ran cleaner, the air was cleaner and their overall impact on the land was miniscule compared to Europeans. It's disingenuous to dismiss that respect because of shortcomings and cruelties that are unfortunately common to pretty much all people. There was no utopia here but our culture could learn some very important lessons from them. We have no excuse but basic human greed and ignorance for over-running and destroying the lives and cultures that existed here prior to the European takeover of the Americas. So don't lay out falsely narrow choices.

cemaphonic

(4,138 posts)
74. There were horses in NA until around the time that the natives crossed over from Siberia.
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 05:14 AM
Feb 2013

The cause of their extinction isn't known, but the timing is awfully suggestive.

 

Peter cotton

(380 posts)
78. On the contrary.
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:13 AM
Feb 2013

You asked me to elaborate on the profundity of something that I described as over-romanticized twaddle...but my description of it as such means I'm asserting that it lacks profundity. Why would I discuss at length the characteristics of something that I've just pointed out doesn't exist?

You could have asked me why I called it twaddle in the first place, but that would be a different question entirely.

Response to Peter cotton (Reply #41)

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
93. Couching some essential truths...
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:21 PM
Feb 2013

...but yes, twaddle in part.

It is utterly ridiculous to suppose that cheating and swindling didn't exist before written laws, or that Native Americans didn't have laws or property. Or that every tribe or nation's culture was identical to every other's.

To romanticize a people into something else is to dehumanize them.

lunamagica

(9,967 posts)
25. Weren't there 500 nations? Did all of them have the same laws and way of life? Did all of them get
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:33 PM
Feb 2013

along?

And how were women treated by the tribes?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
33. There were a few, but most were patriarchal and practiced a warrior cult
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:01 PM
Feb 2013

When the Puritans arrived in Massachusetts, they joined an already-existing genocidal war between the Pequot and Narragansett.

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
108. PILGRIMS, PURITANS, CHRISTIANS, COLONISTS:
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:59 PM
Feb 2013

In 1636, eager to appropriate land belonging to the Pequot people, an alliance was formed with the Narragansett People. Surrounding a Peqout village on the site of present day Mystic, Connecticut, this force promptly set fire to the village and put to the sword all those that attempted escape. In an hours time seven were taken captive, seven escaped and between 600 to 700 lay dead. 31). 77).

William Bradford described the slaughter in these words, "It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying in the fire, and the streams of blood quenching the same, and horrible was the stink and stench thereof; but the victory seemed a sweet sacrifice and they gave praise thereof to God." 1)

The Narragansetts were mortified at the slaughter and pleaded in vain to Captain John Underhill, "It is naught, it is naught, because it is too furious and slays too many men." 1) The humanitarian concerns of the Narragansetts were rebuked. And in their witnessing the slaughter of the Pequot, the Narragansetts saw a portent and vision of what would befall their people in a few short years at the hands of the rapidly expanding colonies.

Underhill would later justify the killing of women and children by quoting the Holy Bible, "Sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents." 31)

It was not enough to merely slaughter the Pequot people . Hoping to wipe their memory from history, laws were passed making it a crime to even utter the word Pequot. These efforts to shape history have only been partially successful. There are those that remember and are aware.

On December 19th 1675, six days before the celebration of Christmas, an armed force was lead into battle against the once friendly Wampanoag people, at the place that was to become known as, "The Great Swamp Massacre."

The Wampanoags, .were no longer willing to yield land to the rapidly growing colonies. This transgression would be dealt with forcefully. In the early morning hours this army attacked a sleeping village of mostly women, children, and old people. Setting fire to the village homes, and burning the Wampanoag people to death. Over 2000 Wampanoag People were slaughtered at this place.

One Christian soldier, sickened by the stench of burning flesh and horrified by the screams of the dying,, asked of his commander, "Is burning alive, men, women, and children, consistent with the benevolent principles of the Gospel?" 12).

Increase Mather rejoiced in his writing, that when survivors of this massacre "....came to see the ashes of their friends, mingled with the ashes of their fort.... where the English had been doing a good day's work, they Howl'd, they Roar'd, they Stamp'd, they tore their hair,.... and were the pictures of so many Devils in Desperation." 31)

The leader of the Wampanoag, Metacomet, a man the colonists called King Phillip, was killed shortly afterward. The body of Metacomet was drawn and quartered. Metacomet's severed head, was impaled on a iron spike which was driven into the ramparts of a bridge. This ghastly trophy remained upon the bridge for the next twenty years, a warning to those that might oppose the will and wishes of the Colonists. 12)

Those Wampanoag, unfortunate to be captured alive, were placed on a slave ship bound for the Bahama's and sold into slavery, yielding a handsome profit for the colonies. Metacomet's wife and children were among those sent into slavery. They were never to see their homeland again.

Many rationalize the wars between the colonists and their Native neighbors as conflicts that resulted from two cultures that did not understand one another. This thinking is often stated along with the idea that if the Native People would have just adapted to the "superior" culture of the European people then all conflict would have been mitigated. Examination of the "Blue Laws," refutes this thinking.

The "Blue Laws" were designed not to "elevate" the Native People to the European concept of civilization but rather to reduce Native People to a level less than human. Among the various "Blue Laws" were statutes whose intent was to reduce social association of White and Native People.

Many within colonial communities, found the Native way of life more desirable than that of their own. These "converts" lived with and adopted the dress and life-ways of their Native neighbors. To eliminate this threat from within, the "Blue Laws" forbade the wearing of Native dress, they forbade the practice of Native spiritual belief by both White AND Native Peoples, it was forbidden to wear ones hair long in the fashion of the Native People. Those that were convicted of violating these laws could expect the death penalty. 31) 1)

But perhaps most telling of all, in part as a result of the legacy of the "Blue Laws", the Massachusetts legislature in 1789 passed a law that forbade the teaching of reading and writing to the Native People. Violators of this law were also subject to the penalty of death. 1)

Today America recoils in horror as it examines the religious extremism and intolerance of the Taliban legacy in Afghanistan. But we forget that we once had a Taliban in America, they were called Pilgrims, Puritans, and Colonists, and we honor and feast their memory each year at the holiday of Thanksgiving.

It is an ironic facet of the American Myth that the Pilgrims and Puritans are popularly held forth as an example of a people setting out in search of religious tolerance and cultural freedom. In truth these Europeans set out for a place were they would ultimately enforce their own version of religious, cultural and political correctness upon others.

While there was a degree of cultural misunderstanding between the colonists and their Native benefactors, the understanding that did exist was far more complete than many would have us believe. But one conclusion is inescapable. The colonists understood that Native People stood in the way of their appropriation of land needed for expansion of the growing colonies. The Pilgrims, the Puritans, and their compatriots, like the other European people that followed them to America, would use any excuse, any method conceivable to take the land they desired.
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#The Pilgrims

reprinted here with permission of author, Mike Kohr
 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
26. Before individual property rights, property belonged to tribes. You'd no choice but adhere to tribal
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:36 PM
Feb 2013

law. That included laws on who you could marry. And all tribal law predicates upon religion.

There are pluses and minuses on both sides of this divide.

Don't romantize tribal life.

Edit to add- but it is great to gather information and learn from others. And appreciate the differences. See what we can learn from each other.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
29. Did they have plumbing, sewerage and heating systems?
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:41 PM
Feb 2013

Like the ancient Romans?

And if they didn't believe in private property, how come they sold the island of Manhattan?

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
109. Yes, see Central Mexico circa 1400, as to the theft of Manhattan
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:02 PM
Feb 2013

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2013, 06:44 PM - Edit history (1)

PETER MINUIT: Hailed by history as the man who bought Manhattan Island for 24 dollars worth of beads and trinkets. The actual story is somewhat different.
Minuit approached the residents of Manhattan island, the Weckquaesgeeks, and explained to them that the Dutch wished to buy their homeland .The Weckquaesgeeks were not willing to sell. This did not deter the determined and intrepid Minuit. Minuit then went before the Canarsees, a neighboring tribe, and offered them payment for the homeland of the Weckquaesgeeks.

The concept of land ownership was foreign to Native People and it is unclear if the Canarsees understood that accepting payment for their neighbor's land would give the Dutch the rationalization they were looking for to forcibly remove the Weckquaesgeeks from their ancestral homeland. It is clear however, that the Dutch knowingly defrauded the Weckquaesgeeks out of their homeland and then waged warfare against them to complete the fraud.

Today the "sale" of Manhattan to the Dutch for twenty-four dollars worth of beads and trinkets is humorously put forth as "evidence" of the naiveté of Native People. History seldom mentions the fraudulent actions of the Dutch and even less frequently mentions that the original inhabitants of Manhattan, the Weckquaesgeeks, were forcibly removed from their homelands by the Dutch. 1)

http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#PETER MINUIT

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
31. The First Nations practiced genocidal warfare, slavery, and hunted species to extinction
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:59 PM
Feb 2013

Also, there were no horses in America before the Europeans came

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
37. I like the drift of this
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:20 PM
Feb 2013

Unfortunately, most of it is not true. Kind of ironic that a Rousseauian construct (the "noble savage&quot would go on to become a central element in native american self-perception.

Study the Iroquois - the conclusion will be that they were not fundamentally different. Their story is the story of the evolution of all humankind in all places through all ages, the same challenges, problems, stories of success and defeat... For me, that makes the way they lived even more remarkable: yes, they had their equivalent of criminals, etc. and their ways of dealing with them are quite enlightening...

As with all human societies - there's many things to be envious of from today's perspective, but there's also lots of terrible shit that none of us minds living without.

They do not have to be mythical, romantic superheros in order to warrant our interest and admiration. They deserve it as those whom they were: Fragile human beings like us taking the wild ride of life and trying to make something out of it.

DeadEyeDyck

(1,504 posts)
38. Well I dated this beautiful Seminole,
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:46 PM
Feb 2013

and she delivered a flaming case of clap to this German born, black man.
kind of makes me think she was selling redemption.

moondust

(19,896 posts)
42. A reminder
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:28 PM
Feb 2013

that the Matrix is not some natural, God-given order but an authoritarian construct created by men largely to enrich themselves. Manifest Destiny lives on in the world view of neocons/PNAC/Republicans.

K/R

CBGLuthier

(12,723 posts)
46. How to Write the Great American Indian Novel
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:44 PM
Feb 2013

All of the Indians must have tragic features: tragic noses, eyes, and arms.
Their hands and fingers must be tragic when they reach for tragic food.

The hero must be a half-breed, half white and half Indian, preferably
from a horse culture. He should often weep alone. That is mandatory.

If the hero is an Indian woman, she is beautiful. She must be slender
and in love with a white man. But if she loves an Indian man

then he must be a half-breed, preferably from a horse culture.
If the Indian woman loves a white man, then he has to be so white

that we can see the blue veins running through his skin like rivers.
When the Indian woman steps out of her dress, the white man gasps

at the endless beauty of her brown skin. She should be compared to nature:
brown hills, mountains, fertile valleys, dewy grass, wind, and clear water.

If she is compared to murky water, however, then she must have a secret.
Indians always have secrets, which are carefully and slowly revealed.

Yet Indian secrets can be disclosed suddenly, like a storm.
Indian men, of course, are storms. The should destroy the lives

of any white women who choose to love them. All white women love
Indian men. That is always the case. White women feign disgust

at the savage in blue jeans and T-shirt, but secretly lust after him.
White women dream about half-breed Indian men from horse cultures.

Indian men are horses, smelling wild and gamey. When the Indian man
unbuttons his pants, the white woman should think of topsoil.

There must be one murder, one suicide, one attempted rape.
Alcohol should be consumed. Cars must be driven at high speeds.

Indians must see visions. White people can have the same visions
if they are in love with Indians. If a white person loves an Indian

then the white person is Indian by proximity. White people must carry
an Indian deep inside themselves. Those interior Indians are half-breed

and obviously from horse cultures. If the interior Indian is male
then he must be a warrior, especially if he is inside a white man.

If the interior Indian is female, then she must be a healer, especially if she is inside
a white woman. Sometimes there are complications.

An Indian man can be hidden inside a white woman. An Indian woman
can be hidden inside a white man. In these rare instances,

everybody is a half-breed struggling to learn more about his or her horse culture.
There must be redemption, of course, and sins must be forgiven.

For this, we need children. A white child and an Indian child, gender
not important, should express deep affection in a childlike way.

In the Great American Indian novel, when it is finally written,
all of the white people will be Indians and all of the Indians will be ghosts.


Sherman Alexie

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
48. That's a very romanticized view.
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:49 PM
Feb 2013

I kind of doubt that things were all that idyllic. Any much more so than European culture, people being what they are, wherever they are.

ismnotwasm

(41,885 posts)
53. I don't romanticize Native Americans
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:17 PM
Feb 2013

Last edited Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:21 AM - Edit history (1)

But I do wonder what would to them have happened if allowed to develop without genocide. It doesn't necessarily follow that they would have gone the way of the West or East, with its massive conquering warfare. Many bands had developed a type of socialism already. They had crafts, orchards, many skills of course. More importantly they're religions weren't religions as we know them---religions of submission and fear. Even the word religion doesn't necessarily apply

Many bands had tribal councils rather than a single leader. Women, had a political voice in many bands.

One thing to remember is we are talking about many diverse peoples with ways of their own. What white people did, besides wholesale murder, was kill off a potential culture that might have looked very different than what we have today, a more egalitarian way of life and governing if Native Americans had been allowed to develop and grow.

We'll never know now. There is a band in the northwest-- the Duwamish people, who were first to greet the whites and welcome them when the ship hit the shore. To this day they are denied recognition as a tribe. The attempts genocide continues with a thousand cuts in the legal system.t

City of Mills

(2,880 posts)
55. What I see in this thread
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 08:33 PM
Feb 2013

Quite a few people who read Lame Deer's words but missed the message.

Quite a few people who dismiss this quote (from a tribal member) as a 'romanticized' view of Indian culture, while they themselves were not around at the time and get their 'information' from books written by white people and 'historians'.

I find it interesting how many people have responded to this thread.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
56. Lame Deer wasn't around at the time either
Sun Feb 24, 2013, 09:13 PM
Feb 2013

I'm not sure why a group's traditions about itself should take priority over actual historians' research, either.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
70. I think it's ironic that you say so, considering that Lame Deer spent most of his life living
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 05:02 AM
Feb 2013

'white' until the 60s, at which time he turned into an Indian shaman type and met up with an Austrian writer at MLK's March on Washington and collaborated with him to write some books.

An assignment for Life in 1967 took Erdoes to the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation for the first time, and marked the beginning of the work for which he would be best known. Erdoes was fascinated by Native American culture, outraged at the conditions on the reservation and deeply moved by the struggle for civil rights that was raging at the time. He wrote histories, collections of Native American stories and myths, and developed profound editor/collaborator creative partnerships with such voices of the Native American Renaissance as Leonard and Mary Crow Dog and John Fire Lame Deer.[6] The Erdoes' New York City apartment was a well known hub of the American Indian Movement (AIM) in the early 1970s and he became involved in the legal defense of several AIM members. In 1975 the family moved to Santa Fe, New Mexico where Erdoes continued to write and remained active in the movement for Native American civil rights

"Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions" came out 4 years after Carlos Castenada's first book.

There is no way to separate the authentic from the romantized at such a time, in such a climate.

Great sioux reservation was created in 1868; rosebud was a division of that, in 1889. Lame deer never experienced the pre-contact, pre-reservation life he talked about.



Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
76. Where, pray, would I find indian history but in books - written by "red", "white", "historian" and
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 05:35 AM
Feb 2013

layman?

Pray tell us what other esoteric source of knowledge there is that is insightful enough to allow for snarky comments`?

All of us who have studied the issue merely relying on books are dying to know!

"Romanticized" has a concrete, non-perjorative meaning in this context. It is not used to denigrate anyone. The "noble savage" is an invention of white "historians" (social philosophers such as Rousseau and others) and should be regarderd as nothing more than that: Romance.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
61. They recieved their spiritual enlightenment from Aliens and Bigfoots
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:59 AM
Feb 2013

I mean, as long as we are just making shit up, I figure we aught to go all out.

Or maybe, and this is just a thought, but maybe we should put aside ALL the faerie tales -- including the Disney Native Americans who lived in peace and harmony with the universe -- and instead focus on making this world a better place.

We don't need imaginary Native Americans to tell us that we shouldn't allow a few to own everything. We know this already. We know we should take care of one another. We know we should stop killing ourselves and the planet. We know we should value educating and knowlege. We know we should put aside the magical thinking.

As Gandolf the Wizard so famously said, "Use the force Harry!"

struggle4progress

(117,949 posts)
65. Desmond Tutu: "When the white man came, they had the Bible, and we had the land. And they said,
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:16 AM
Feb 2013
Let us pray. So we closed our eyes and prayed. And when we opened our eyes, we had the Bible, and they had the land"

alterfurz

(2,466 posts)
91. Tecumseh on the white man's religion:
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:13 PM
Feb 2013

"When Jesus Christ came upon the Earth, you killed Him. The son of your own God.... And only after He was dead did you worship Him and start killing those who would not."

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
113. Tecumseh's Creed
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:40 PM
Feb 2013

"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and
demand that they respect yours.

Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek
to make your life long and it's purpose in the service of your people.
Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great
divide.

Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend,
even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and
bow to none.

When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the food and the joy of
living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself.

Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs
the spirit of it's vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those
whose hearts. Are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes
they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in
a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."

TECUMSEH -Shawnee-
http://www.brotherhooddays.com/TecumsehsCreed.html

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
66. absence of locks, private property, prisons, etc isn't specific to native americans; it's the usual
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:27 AM
Feb 2013

situation with a particular level of technology, population concentration, and economic surplus.

quakerboy

(13,893 posts)
69. I was once informed by an african immigrant
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 04:55 AM
Feb 2013

that his country had no mental illness, because the village elders wouldn't allow things to get that far.

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
82. Ronald Reagan on Native Americans
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:53 AM
Feb 2013

RONALD REAGAN: The Great Communicator:

While campaigning in South Dakota during the 1980 presidential campaign, candidate Reagan promised to uphold treaty law and to fulfill America's obligation to Native People. Reagan quickly broke these promises upon becoming President. As president, Reagan cut funding to Indian programs in unprecedented proportions.
Indian Appropriations accounted for .04% of the federal budget when Reagan took office In 1982 2.5% of all federal budget cuts came entirely from that meager .04% of the Federal budget. 77).

Reagan's Secretary of the Interior, James Watt, called Indians "social misfits" whose homelands were "examples of the failure of socialism." 31).

While visiting Russia, Reagan was questioned about the status of Native Americans. Reagan responded with the following paternalistic, insulting, and indefensible, display of ignorance and confusion:
"Let me tell you just a little something about the American Indian in our land. We have provided millions of acres for what are called preservations, or the reservations I should say. They from the beginning, announced that they wanted to maintain their way of life as they had always lived, there in the desert and the plains and so forth, and we set up these reservations so they could and had a Bureau of Indian Affairs to help take care of them, at the same time we provide education for them, schools on the reservations, and they are free, also, to leave the reservations and be American citizens among the rest of us, and many do. Some still prefer, however, that early way of life and we've done everything we can to meet their demands on how they want to live. Maybe we made a mistake. Maybe we should not have humored them in that wanting to stay in that kind of primitive lifestyle. Maybe we should have said, 'No, come join us, be citizens. "31).

In all fairness, Reagan was probably unaware of the level of understanding and concern for Native Americans by people outside our country's borders. He was obviously caught off-guard and un-prepared, which explains in part, the nearly incoherent syntax and bewildering logic of his answer. However, his lack of understanding of history, his insensitivity, his Euro-centric sense of superiority, his disdain for Native culture and Native People, was to our collective shame, a fair representation of the nation and the people he served as president.

From the webpage: "YOUR HEROES ARE NOT OUR HEROES" http://www.brotherhooddays.com/HEROES.html#RONALD REAGAN:

 

toby jo

(1,269 posts)
92. The quote is romantic - a longing for a heritage that was torn, instead of let to evolve.
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:13 PM
Feb 2013

These folks are free to live on their res any way they choose, but for lack of a will to recapture, or to be continent with the 'olde' ways, they too often simply shoot for a smug imperial attitude. I know an old Shaman from a NY res Chief Mike, who is the gentlest and kindest of souls. I listened to a recent recording he's made of a songfest they held 1/yr wherein all the shaman got together and prayed (sang) for 12 straight hours. It was just stunningly beautiful. It took my breath away.

I also dated an Indian from a res in NC who was a violent, alcoholic mess. He hated the res and the people on it - called them a bunch of drunks, wife-beaters, and child molesters.

They're human, like the rest of us.

European disease killed off the majority of Indians, but then, they might have had a disease that killed us off and we would have had to basically keep taking the shit of imperialists in the old country. Luck of the draw.

Another note - things would have gone alot more harmoniously if our own Shamanic culture of Paganism hadn't been conquered and demonized by the Christians. We would have had an insight in common with the redman.

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
112. This was posted By Randy Isbister, my Native friend from Saskatchewan, on my Facebook Page
Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:38 PM
Feb 2013

I can't stop thinking about the truth. the differences between my grandparents and yours. Some of your grand parents came to this country and had it rough and they still managed. This is the truth. And I hear some ask the question "My grandparents did it, why didn't yours?"

The truth is...My grand parents were not legally allowed to leave the reserve. My grand parents could not go out into the cities, so, that is part of the reason. My grand parents had to hand my parents over to a residential school and if they refused they were thrown in jail. It was the law back then. That is another part of the reason.

If your grand parents were treated this way HERE in this country, would things have turned out different for you? Women were allowed to vote before my Parents and Grand Parents were allowed to vote. There are many of you who can count in your language. There are people in my family who cannot count to 10 in their own native tongue. My Grand Parents were at a disadvantage that your grand parents never knew. This is why we are idle no more.

Randy had this to add: "My grandparents were forced to send my mother to residential school. The year I was born, my mother and grandparents still did not have the right to vote. Harper is attempting to rid the nation of the indian problem."
Idle No More

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
119. This is the kind of sentimental tripe that appeals to people who didn't pay attention in their
Tue Feb 26, 2013, 10:13 AM
Feb 2013

History classes, and accept without question a facile and glib interpretation of native culture. This non-contemporaneous account of tribal life is nostalgic only to those who have never bothered to read the actual histories of the first peoples in North America. Real people are far more complex--hell, read about the Lakota/Crow Wars and learn how our military took pointers.

Tribal life was repressive, bloody, and conformist. Inter-tribal relations were marked with indiscriminate killing, rape, slavery, and subjugation.

I get the political reasons why an AIM member from the 1970s might wish to write this propaganda that uses the "noble savage" meme as a critique of "white" culture, but this is bullshit.

What the US government did to the first peoples of this nation is horrific, and the injustice continues. But platitudes that romanticize complex social groups are what I would expect on the back of a Harlequin novel.

mikekohr

(2,312 posts)
122. You should read "Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions." from which the lead post was taken
Wed Feb 27, 2013, 08:59 AM
Feb 2013

The quote would make much more sense to you if you do. If you already have, read it again.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»"Before our white br...