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Sun Feb 24, 2013, 10:15 AM

The false notion that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."



That just about says it all.

52 replies, 7064 views

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Arrow 52 replies Author Time Post
Reply The false notion that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." (Original post)
MattSh Feb 2013 OP
grantcart Feb 2013 #1
liberalmike27 Feb 2013 #11
Baitball Blogger Feb 2013 #2
kardonb Feb 2013 #15
lindysalsagal Feb 2013 #23
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #28
lindysalsagal Feb 2013 #37
Duppers Feb 2013 #41
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #43
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #52
tblue37 Feb 2013 #26
a la izquierda Feb 2013 #34
patrice Feb 2013 #3
A HERETIC I AM Feb 2013 #4
patrice Feb 2013 #5
Archae Feb 2013 #6
Make7 Feb 2013 #7
Lucky Luciano Feb 2013 #45
reformist2 Feb 2013 #8
The Wizard Feb 2013 #17
garthranzz Feb 2013 #9
tblue37 Feb 2013 #27
jazzimov Feb 2013 #33
Jerry442 Feb 2013 #10
Ino Feb 2013 #12
tabasco Feb 2013 #13
hfojvt Feb 2013 #14
ck4829 Feb 2013 #16
Yavin4 Feb 2013 #18
Igel Feb 2013 #24
Cary Feb 2013 #29
Yavin4 Feb 2013 #38
Jamaal510 Feb 2013 #19
AnotherMcIntosh Feb 2013 #20
ashling Feb 2013 #21
Populist_Prole Feb 2013 #22
Poiuyt Feb 2013 #25
TeamPooka Feb 2013 #30
MineralMan Feb 2013 #31
jazzimov Feb 2013 #36
smirkymonkey Feb 2013 #32
riderinthestorm Feb 2013 #35
pampango Feb 2013 #39
MyshkinCommaPrince Feb 2013 #40
Demeter Feb 2013 #42
MattSh Feb 2013 #50
FreeBC Feb 2013 #44
ZombieHorde Feb 2013 #46
Festivito Feb 2013 #47
Phlem Feb 2013 #48
defacto7 Feb 2013 #49
DeSwiss Feb 2013 #51

Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 10:16 AM

1. Love it

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Response to grantcart (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:33 AM

11. I call it

"I'm stupid, and proud of it!!"

Been using that phrase for the new FOX promoted repeater-ism for some time now.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 10:25 AM

2. We are batting them out of the ballpark today!

Yes! And there is a correlation between intellectualism and good public stewardship. If leaders are not intellectually honest it forms the basis for a corrupt society.

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Response to Baitball Blogger (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:45 AM

15. ballpark

it shows very early in the over-emphasis on sports achievement in high school and college , but hardly any mention of academic achievement . SO sad .

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Response to kardonb (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:14 PM

23. The anti-intellectualism is to blame for some of the Obama hating: a.k.a Harvard.

I truly believe he would have fewer haters if he were not a brilliant black man who graduated from and taught at Harvard.

Had he been from a state school, I think he'd be wearing that flag continuously.

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #23)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:46 PM

28. I graduated from a fabulous state university and consider myself an

intellectual. Surely you didn't mean that to be a nasty swipe against our VERY DEMOCRATIC public universities?????????????????

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #28)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:57 PM

37. OK you can take everything as an insult if that makes you happy.

Have a wonderful life.

I got my first master's from a public university, but nothing has the ability to annoy stupid people ( you can decide whether or not you would include yourself in that group) like Harvard. And if your public university can top harvard, well, good for you!

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #37)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:27 PM

41. Geo. W. Bush has a Harvard degree !

Top that.

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Response to Duppers (Reply #41)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 08:14 PM

43. +10000! :)

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Response to lindysalsagal (Reply #37)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:26 AM

52. Of course my public university tops Harvard.

They have never yet graduated the likes of Dubya or any other major RW politician. They have no use for dead weight in their lecture halls.

But feel free to continue with your hate and insults.

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Response to kardonb (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:10 PM

26. Other countries think we are insane to pass out

so many full-ride college scholarships to those who are merely talented athletes, even if they have an inadequate education to prepare for college level work--and no interest in college except as a showcase for their talent in hopes of getting a pro contract. Meanwhile those who are excellent students must forego college or else go tens of thousands of dollars into debt to attend.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #26)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:17 PM

34. That would be me.

$$$$$ in debt because I'm smart, but my parents made enough to block grants, yet not enough to contribute to my education...

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 10:51 AM

3. ". . . . and if you don't agree that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge, I have a gun

, or some other form of fascistic coercion, like ridicule, cliques, propaganda meme-bots, divide and conquer politics, emotional blackmail, financial punishment, bullying etc. . . . to convince you."

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Response to patrice (Reply #3)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 10:52 AM

4. Or the condemnation to hell. n/t

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Response to A HERETIC I AM (Reply #4)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 10:55 AM

5. Indeed, the most universally effective form of fascistic coercion there is! because all humans die.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:00 AM

6. You have to read his essay on this.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:05 AM

7. But my ignorance is unlimited...

... your knowledge is finite.

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Response to Make7 (Reply #7)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 10:09 PM

45. Haha! nt

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:06 AM

8. People are lazy. They want to voice opinions without having to back them up.

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Response to reformist2 (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 12:06 PM

17. When thought is akin to work

some people watch Pox News.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:20 AM

9. Brilliant man! Still an inspiration

and his books still read well.

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Response to garthranzz (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:11 PM

27. His science columns were even better than his books. nt

Last edited Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:43 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #27)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:16 PM

33. The most prolific writer who ever lived,

who proved that intelligence and wisdom could co-exist.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:31 AM

10. We now live in a bizarre world where...

...a person can sit in an airliner five miles above the earth's surface, hurtling along at 600 miles per hour, breathing pressurized air, and composing a letter on a laptop computer to be transmitted nearly instantaneously via the Internet to the other side of the world -- about how scientists are totally clueless about everything and should be ignored.

Always admired Asimov. I'm sorry I never got a chance to meet him.

p.s. What laptop is Asimov using in that pic? It's a bit bulky, but it does seem to have a built-in printer.

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Response to Jerry442 (Reply #10)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:37 AM

12. ROFL! (nt)

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:40 AM

13. When my brother was a wingnut, year ago,

he proudly proclaimed at a family dinner one night, "I haven't read a book in years!"

I could see the pain in my schoolteacher Mom's face.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:43 AM

14. it just about says "we are superior to the other tribe"

Which often seems to be all we have to say

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002199876#post2

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021925726#post17


There is also a cult of superciliousness.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:59 AM

16. It really is sad that science has to compete with "But we don't know for sure!!1!"

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 12:27 PM

18. America's Cult of Ignorance is sponsored by big Corporations

They pander and nurture our Cult of Ignorance in order to make the public look away from the rigid class structure that exists in America. Get the populace fighting over race while we steal money from the treasury.

Prime example: the housing collapse. Go back to late 2008 and see the litany of conservative commentators try to lay the blame on the Community Reinvestment Act for the financial crisis.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:22 PM

24. You've got to be kidding.

It's like blaming corporations for convincing us that we need food and saying we're still not sure why they've convinced us we need air--but there must be some advantage in it for them.

Ignorance is easy. It tells us what what we already think is true, and that whatever we need to believe at the moment is exactly correct.

And the "price" for this is the certainty that we're at least as good, moral, intelligent, and worthy as the next person. At least as much as the next person. Certainly more moral, intelligent, and worthy than most.

Our cult of ignorance predates big corporations' influence. We have found the problem and the problem is us.

As for the housing crisis, it's one of those things with lots of causes. Lots. Many of them were Congressional and NGO-related, but I lay the biggest (because earliest) cause not at the feet of the CRA but at the feet of the discussion around the CRA. There were a number of threats, explicit and implicit, that industry and regulators wanted to avoid. So the goals of those making threats were accomplished without the legislation, and without leaving their fingerprints on the debacle. I thought it a stupid debate when I was living in West LA in the mid '90s and read it in the local rag. Redlining was bad, but the prescription for "rectifying" the situation had little to do with rectitude and more to do with self-righteousness and politics.

Similarly, the CRA allowed a certain type of mortgage could easily clog the banks' books, and non-legislative pressure ensured that a lot of those mortgages were written. A quick change in regulations and a tweak to the law allowed, for all the right reasons, these books to be cleared and the mortgages to be securitized. Once legal and profitable, this practice spread to lots of other banks for a lot of other reasons. Fannie and Freddie led the way, but were later outpaced by larger organizations when others wanted in on the action. Tools find uses and uses find tools. There's a time gap between the CRA and the worst abuses. There's a time gap between securitization of mortgages and the worst abuses. Look not to effects and the end-stage of the situation, look to how the stage is set and what sets the first domino falling if you want to find cause. It's not the 90% of the problem that is responsible in the end, it's the first 10%: You can't look at summary stats if you want to chart the course of events and you can't "do" cause and effect without looking at the course of events.

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Response to Igel (Reply #24)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:46 PM

29. If you are ignorant what are you to do?

Either give up and cede everything to the intelligent, or attempt to celebrate your ignorance.

If they weren't ignorant they would choose the former, which of course is impossible.

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Response to Igel (Reply #24)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:21 PM

38. I do not dispute that our culture of ignorance predates Corp. sponsorship

I said that our major corporations sponsor ignorance.

The CRA had nothing whatsoever to do with the housing/financial collapse. Nothing. See the UNC study linked below and the Minneapolis Fed study as well. CRA backed loans were a small percentage of overall loans.

https://www.ncsha.org/blog/unc-center-study-debunks-role-cra-housing-crisis


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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 12:36 PM

19. It's the fault of most of our media for giving

both sides of an argument the same amount of credibility, despite only one side being correct typically. False equivalence would be a great example of this.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 12:38 PM

20. K&R

 

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 12:57 PM

21. Proactive ignorance

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:17 PM

22. K&R for making this open discourse. I'm seeing so so much of it now; it's getting worse

I really notice a lot of what 'Patrice' says. It's like they give nary a shite about the actual validity of what they say and whether it really passes the smell test. To them it's all about "marketing" really: By sounding more confident, being louder and more insistent, intimidating, stubborn, or even using the soft soap angle, they quite literally believe they can steamroll right over a prosaic logical rational argument. They think they've "won". That or, more and more, to my rational argument, I'll hear Well I'm just sayin', which is basically their way of saying "Yeah I'm clearly letting my mouth write a check my brain can't cash and i don't care what you say...SO THERE"

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:10 PM

25. The nice thing about science is that it's true whether you believe it or not.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:52 PM

30. says it all

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:03 PM

31. I grew up reading that man's books.

All of them, from his science fiction to his history and books about anything and everything. In my early teens, I read every Asimov book I could find, and benefited from each and every one in some way.

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Response to MineralMan (Reply #31)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:24 PM

36. Me too! That man changed my life.

Opened my eyes and mind to many, many different things.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:13 PM

32. +1000

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 04:22 PM

35. Yup, says it all. One of my favorite authors nt

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:32 PM

39. Book review: What makes the brains of anti-scientists tick.

The Heretics: Adventures with the Enemies of Science by Will Storr

Science is one of humanity's greatest cultural achievements. By testing ideas against evidence, our species has been able to trace the course of evolution, to devise medicines that prolong lives, and even to glimpse the first microseconds of the universe. For all its success, though, there remains no shortage of people who doubt science's insights and achievements, sometimes preferring bizarre beliefs that count as unproven or disproved under its lens. Even the most compelling evidence cannot always dent the popularity of attractive but groundless stories.

This human reluctance to spurn a tall tale that we would like to be true is worth understanding, and the project on which Will Storr embarks in The Heretics: Adventures with the Enemies of Science is therefore an admirable one. In seeking out creationists and homeopaths, Holocaust-deniers and past-life regression therapists, he seeks not to mock strange convictions, but to get inside the minds of those who hold them.

...the great strength of the scientific approach is its recognition of these weaknesses of human thinking, and its attempts, albeit partial and imperfect, to erect defences against them.
This is why randomised controlled trials, statistical significance and fair experimental design matter. They help us to avoid seeing only that which we find invigorating.

It is all very well to approach weird beliefs with an open mind, but as the aphorism goes, you must be careful not to leave it so open that your brains fall out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/feb/17/heretics-adventures-science-storr-review

The anti-scientific mind - thy name is "republican". 'Facts? We don't need no stinking facts. We love "seeing only that which we find invigorating"'.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:57 PM

40. The full essay

The full essay from which this quote is drawn can be found (in somewhat dodgy scanned pdf form) here:

http://wist.info/asimov-isaac/19937/

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:59 PM

42. Hey Matt!

Don't be such a stranger!

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Response to Demeter (Reply #42)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:03 AM

50. Yeah, I can be like that sometimes...

Not saying that's a good thing though...

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 09:17 PM

44. I just found my standard reply to every conservative email I will ever receive.

 

After I verify the quote of course

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 10:42 PM

46. I like the sentiment, but that is a subjective statement.

Objectively speaking, ignorance and knowledge are equal.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:33 PM

47. Does that imply Citizens United as a good model?

That my greater intellect should have an unfettered greater voice over your lesser, ignorant position. Maybe even to the degree that someday even your vote should not count as much as mine.

After all, why should my knowledge be equal to your ignorance?

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:46 AM

48. Recycled but not enough

always contemporary. This should be in the back of every denominational bill we print.

I can't hear it enough.



-p

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:46 AM

49. At least we are beginning to have discourse

on the subject of America's decline of it's intelligent populous and the increase of misinformation entertainment. It's been discarded and mocked just long enough for it to be beyond the reach of reversal for at least... say.. 2 more generation IF things change now.

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Response to MattSh (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 02:39 AM

51. Ignorance is natural to everyone at one point in their lives.....

...but it can be overcome with facts and patience. Arrogance on the other hand, is learned ignorance and springs from a sense of non-existent superiority. The arrogant devalue people without knowing a damned thing about them.

- And caring even less....

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