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Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:45 AM

Gay Man Attacked On New York City Subway, Onlookers Do Nothing


A gay man was attacked on a New York City subway on Monday, and onlookers did nothing to try and stop it, according to local reports.

Urena Morel Frankelly, 23, and his partner were riding the 2 train when a woman snapped a photo of them, the New York Daily News reports. Her friend then began to hurl insults at them and use the slur "faggot," the outlet notes. An argument erupted and then the two women, along with four others, reportedly attacked Frankelly.

"They started beating him up," Lucas Cruz, Frankelly's partner, told New York's WABC of the incident, which happened after they boarded the southbound subway at 125th Street. "They started beating him up like crazy, hitting the floor, kicking his face." .........................(more)

The complete piece is at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/21/gay-man-attacked-new-york-city-subway-hate-crime_n_2733441.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009



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Arrow 54 replies Author Time Post
Reply Gay Man Attacked On New York City Subway, Onlookers Do Nothing (Original post)
marmar Feb 2013 OP
datasuspect Feb 2013 #1
BeyondGeography Feb 2013 #3
Arcanetrance Feb 2013 #4
datasuspect Feb 2013 #5
Dorian Gray Feb 2013 #7
Arcanetrance Feb 2013 #9
Renew Deal Feb 2013 #10
ProgressiveProfessor Feb 2013 #12
datasuspect Feb 2013 #14
NYC Liberal Feb 2013 #15
datasuspect Feb 2013 #16
NYC Liberal Feb 2013 #17
datasuspect Feb 2013 #18
NYC Liberal Feb 2013 #20
datasuspect Feb 2013 #22
NYC Liberal Feb 2013 #24
datasuspect Feb 2013 #19
NYC Liberal Feb 2013 #21
datasuspect Feb 2013 #23
marions ghost Feb 2013 #31
NYC Liberal Feb 2013 #33
marions ghost Feb 2013 #37
Recursion Feb 2013 #45
Mariana Feb 2013 #46
leftynyc Feb 2013 #25
datasuspect Feb 2013 #26
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #28
datasuspect Feb 2013 #29
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #30
datasuspect Feb 2013 #34
11 Bravo Feb 2013 #47
datasuspect Feb 2013 #48
EOTE Feb 2013 #38
Chorophyll Feb 2013 #27
Orrex Feb 2013 #32
datasuspect Feb 2013 #35
Orrex Feb 2013 #36
datasuspect Feb 2013 #39
Orrex Feb 2013 #40
datasuspect Feb 2013 #41
Orrex Feb 2013 #42
datasuspect Feb 2013 #43
xchrom Feb 2013 #2
Marrah_G Feb 2013 #6
Dorian Gray Feb 2013 #8
cate94 Feb 2013 #11
Bake Feb 2013 #13
smirkymonkey Feb 2013 #54
cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #44
quinnox Feb 2013 #49
DeadEyeDyck Feb 2013 #52
quinnox Feb 2013 #53
Marr Feb 2013 #50
stevenleser Feb 2013 #51

Response to marmar (Original post)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:17 AM

3. An unfortunate post by you

Cherry picking incidents five decades apart to slur the entire city is lame. The article itself provides an answer to your "question":

The attack comes just days after a gay man confronted a street preacher delivering anti-gay messages on another New York City subway line. The gay man's response -- "I'm a gay man and Jesus loves me!" -- was met with a round of applause from fellow riders.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:34 AM

4. As a resident of this sewer my entire life I ask that you rethink and edit that comment

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Response to Arcanetrance (Reply #4)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:58 AM

7. Arcanetrance

didn't seem the least bit outraged. Just concerned over the ignorance that your post seemed to portray.



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Response to datasuspect (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 08:13 AM

9. I'm far from outraged I just think labeling an entire place a sewer is rude

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 09:14 AM

10. That "sewer" is probably more liberal than the dump you reside in

Hav you ever been to NY? Either way, please don't visit.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #10)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 11:41 AM

12. How could it be such a liberal haven when it is ruled by decree by a 1%er (Bloomberg)

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Response to ProgressiveProfessor (Reply #12)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 06:22 AM

15. I don't think a comparison to Kitty Genovese is accurate at all.

In the case of Kitty Genovese, the witnesses were watching safely from afar from within their homes. All had the ability to call the police discreetly.

This attack took place in a very tightly enclosed space (a subway car) where people would have been inches or a feet away from the attackers and no way to get away easily. And being underground, there is no way to call 911. There was no way for people to know if the attackers had knives, guns, or some other deadly weapons.

It's a horrible situation all around. I can't guess what the mindset of the witnesses was; however, there was significantly more risk in taking action here than there was in the Kitty Genovese murder.

As for living here - there are very few other places in the world I'd ever want to live.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #15)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #16)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 06:33 AM

17. What if an onlooker was an 85 year old man?

Or a pregnant woman?

It says there were six attackers. Six. And we have no idea how many onlookers were there (unless I missed something; I read the HuffPost article and the original Daily News article).

It's easy to say from the safety of your home on your computer what people should do. When you find yourself in that situation, people don't always the morally ideal thing. Intervening in something like this can mean having the attack turned onto you and suffering horrific injuries - or even dying. Yes there are incredible people who WILL risk it; but they are extraordinary precisely because it is a very difficult thing to do.

Again, there's also the unique circumstance of not being able to call the police. If you see an attack happening on the street, anyone can quickly and discreetly turn the corner and call the police. That is not possible on the subway.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #17)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 06:47 AM

20. Easy for you to tell the 85 year old man who can barely walk

that he should intervene in a six-person attack and possibly get himself killed. How about a 13 year old kid? What should they do?

There is a big difference between what is right in an ideal sense, and what is right in the reality of the real world. Perhaps in an ideal world everyone would unflinchingly risk their lives at a moment's notice to stop an attack like this. In the real world, we are human beings. Risking our lives is an extraordinary act that takes bravery, guts, and an ability to put aside the crippling fear that takes over in that situation. It's not as simple as "If you don't risk your life then you're a terrible person", no matter how much you may want to look at it in black and white.

Tell me how you'd intervene in this:



I'd love to know.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #20)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #22)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:37 AM

24. This isn't about me or what I'd do.

I'm a young, healthy, able-bodied person, and I hope I'd do something if I were in that situation.

What I'm saying is that you can't go around looking at everything in black and white. Are you going to condemn that 85 year old as a terrible person if they don't get physically involved? Come on.

Is getting involved and risking your own safety the right thing to do? Yes, maybe it is. But we are all human. Like it or not, people do get afraid. People aren't always selfless to the point of risking their lives. People think about their spouse or their kids or their loved ones when they're confronted with a choice to run into danger or away.

It's not about being "paralyzed by fear 24/7"; it's about being human. There's a difference between someone who turns a blind eye because they don't care (or worse, support the attackers), and someone who freezes in a moment of weakness in the face of danger.

Deputies: Man who intervened in fist fight dies days later
College student killed in street fight after intervening to help a 'troubled' friend
Montgomery County man killed while intervening in bar fight
City man killed intervening in fight
19-year-old Bronx man shot dead trying to break up fight
Police: Good Samaritan stabbed to death after intervening in argument
Teen stands up for girl's honour, killed by goons
Woman killed intervening in fight
Mt. Carmel student killed intervening in Indiana beach fight

Yes those are incredibly brave people. Heroes. But they are called heroes precisely because what they do is so difficult.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #15)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #19)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 06:48 AM

21. Compare:

People watching from afar from their homes with access to phones to immediately call the police.

People sitting or standing inches away from the attackers in a confined space with no ability to get away to get help, and no ability to call the police.

No, it's not similar at all. Not even remotely.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #21)


Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:41 AM

31. You make good points

--not everyone is cut out to be a hero. In a claustrophobic situation like that, with people going berserk, I'd probably plaster myself up at the other end of the car.

I'm sure the witnesses were shocked and horrified. No need for others here to imply that they just ignored it. I seriously doubt they were not scared witless.

The trains probably need some sort of emergency call system.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #31)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:00 AM

33. Yeah, I'm not praising them or anything. I'm not saying their reaction was "good"...

just that it was human and until we know more about who these onlookers were, it's hard to be too judgmental. No they're not heroes and don't deserve praise, but on the flip side I don't think they should necessarily be condemned as terrible people, at least until we learn more about the situation.

The newer trains do have an emergency intercom to reach the conductor but I've *never* seen anyone use it; I have no idea how how well it works or even how many people even realize it's there (it's a red button at the end of the car).

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #33)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:14 AM

37. absolutely

not enough facts to make a judgment.

New Yorkers are not any more callous than anyone else in this country. Probably there was no one in the car who felt confident enough to intervene.

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Response to NYC Liberal (Reply #15)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:03 AM

45. More to the point, several people did call the police when she was in the courtyard

The calls kept coming until Genovese crawled into the foyer and was attacked again, where nobody could see or hear.

The reporting on that story turned out to be appallingly wrong.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #45)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:49 AM

46. Some people prefer to believe the lies

and will continue to do so no matter how much evidence you show them.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:46 AM

25. With all due respect

NY is one of the most gay-friendly cities in the entire world so kindly go fuck yourself.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #25)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #26)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:14 AM

28. If I call wherever you live a sewer, should I expect you not to react?

Of course, I would never do that. I'm sure wherever you live is lovely, and filled with lovely sunshine-people like yourself.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #28)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:33 AM

30. You might have noticed that places are made up of the people who live in them.

So when people start threads on DU denigrating "the south," for example, I don't join in.

But hey, you're the grownup.

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Response to Chorophyll (Reply #30)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 12:27 PM

47. Yeah, 8 posts hidden in the last 90 days makes it clear that you're the poster child for civility.

You slammed an entire city by going for the cheap one-liner, and now you display neither the wisdom nor the grace to apologize. Then you doubled down faster than Ted Cruz accusing the Harvard faculty of being a bunch of Commies.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Reply #47)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #29)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:16 AM

38. No, you just insulted MILLIONS of people

By making a ignorant and jackassed comment. I can guarantee the bulk of them are more educated and cultured than you. But you're probably better at making stupid, anonymous comments on the internet.

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Response to leftynyc (Reply #25)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:12 AM

27. +100,000

I'm sure violence against gays NEVER happens in the non-"sewer" portions of the United States, right?

Unbelievable.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #1)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 08:42 AM

32. Aside from your "me first!" soundbyte, how does this resemble the Genovese story?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #32)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #35)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:14 AM

36. So you simply like to have people watch you masturbate

Got it.

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Response to Orrex (Reply #36)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #39)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:28 AM

40. Well, think of the victims

Sure, it's a good time for you, but how do the rest of us feel about it?

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Response to Orrex (Reply #40)


Response to datasuspect (Reply #41)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 09:34 AM

42. Wait. Are we still talking about your masturbation?

i was the one who was told to go fuck myself.


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Response to Orrex (Reply #42)


Response to marmar (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:00 AM

2. Du rec. Nt

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:55 AM

6. sigh

Maybe someday we will no longer have to hear about these acts of violence because they will no longer happen.

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 07:59 AM

8. Very upsetting that something like this

would happen in our city. There are people who stand up to wrongs every day here. When they don't, it's extremely disturbing.

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 09:48 AM

11. What the hell is the matter with people?

How insecure do you have to be to be this intolerant?

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:17 PM

13. Was it because the victim was gay, or because they didn't want to get involved?

I suspect it was the latter. I'm not sure I'd want to get physically involved in the middle of a street fight; you never know what's going to happen.

Bake

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Response to Bake (Reply #13)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 07:44 PM

54. I agree. I have been on the NYC subway when fights have broken out.

Even minor fights can be terrifying and mostly you are just shocked and your instinct is just to get away from the mayhem. You don't think to get involved, you just want to get away from it as quickly as possible because you never know how violent is is going to get.

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 10:59 AM

44. I try not to get involved.

Sure, there are some circumstances where I would, if there was a kid getting beat up or something, but you never know when somebody's going to pull a gun on you nowadays. I would def have called police though and given a statement and tried to take pictures of the attackers.

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:27 PM

49. its usually not wise to get involved in violence, so that is not surprising

 

I don't think it is a wise thing to jump in like Superman in the middle of violence, you could end up getting seriously hurt or killed if the attackers have other weapons.

I don't blame any of those people for not wanting to get involved in that way. Playing the hero is only harmless and always comes out to a happy ending in movies.

The best thing to do would have been to contact the police by cell phone from a safe distance.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #49)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:17 PM

52. What if you saw a child in a burning building or

drowning? When it does not involve violence, how much risk would you take
?

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Response to DeadEyeDyck (Reply #52)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 03:21 PM

53. I don't know

 

some things you really can't say unless faced with the situation in reality, those scenarios sound like one of those.

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:38 PM

50. I have a hard time condemning the onlookers.

A situation like that can be very confusing. I once jumped into a situation like that and ended up feeling quite the ass for it. Turned out the guy I stepped in to defend had really provoked the beating he was then taking, right down to hitting first. But I didn't know that.

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Response to marmar (Original post)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 01:43 PM

51. I take the subways here in NYC to and from work every day

I've seen lots of LGBT couples holding hands and such on the trains and have never seen attacks.

Intervening in a dispute between 3+ people on one side and 2+ people on the other is a dicey proposition. Fortunately it rarely happens. I've been back in NYC since 2003, riding the subway every day and since then have never seen a physical fight on the subway. That wasnt true when I was here in the 1980s, but NYC has changed a lot since then. NYC is a very safe place in general now.

Still, I cannot say for sure what I would have done in this case. If I had been close enough to see the whole thing from the beginning and determined it was about gay bashing, I would have at least yelled at the attackers to try and get them to stop and if I determined that there was a good chance I could do so safely, I would have attempted to interpose myself physically between them and the folks they were attacking. Like others have said though, if you happen to be in a subway car with violent people, its a scary thing. There is literally nowhere to run.

The subway line we are talking about, the 2 and 3 heading downtown from 125th street, is an express. The NY Post article says the person attacked got off at 96th street after the attack. The 2 and 3 trains stop at 110th and Lenox and before stopping at 96th and Broadway. In practice, this trip takes about 5-8 minutes because of the two curves the route takes. That is a long time to be stuck in a train car with someone who might be vicious and possibly armed.

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