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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:00 AM

Is America in irreversible decline??

If so, when was the moment it began?

Some will say it began with Reagan or before. If America is truly in decline, I would say it began with the stolen election of 2000 and a comatose media at the time.

After all, we had recovered economically after Reagan and Bush I. We had balanced the budget and were on our way to paying down the national debt. It could be argued that the Reagan policies lived on after Clinton with Bush Jr and Cheney, especially the imperialistic military. But still, we had recovered from Reagan by the year 2000.

It was the stolen election that was accepted and those in power were no longer questioned about their motives. This was after the impeachment of Bill Clinton.

The media did not question our invasion of Iraq and the doubling of our national debt. They did not question the torture of fellow human beings. They did not question doing away with protections built into our financial system. They were asleep at the wheel.

If we are in irreversible decline, that is when it happened, in my opinion.

117 replies, 6327 views

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Arrow 117 replies Author Time Post
Reply Is America in irreversible decline?? (Original post)
kentuck Feb 2013 OP
raccoon Feb 2013 #1
hughee99 Feb 2013 #50
Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #57
Lochloosa Feb 2013 #90
TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #98
BlueJazz Feb 2013 #2
libodem Feb 2013 #43
watoos Feb 2013 #45
corkhead Feb 2013 #3
Spider Jerusalem Feb 2013 #4
Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2013 #7
Strelnikov_ Feb 2013 #22
CrispyQ Feb 2013 #28
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #33
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #34
Strelnikov_ Feb 2013 #44
customerserviceguy Feb 2013 #75
madville Feb 2013 #5
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #25
madville Feb 2013 #29
We People Feb 2013 #39
leveymg Feb 2013 #6
marions ghost Feb 2013 #76
steve2470 Feb 2013 #8
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #18
KG Feb 2013 #9
Dan Feb 2013 #105
Coyotl Feb 2013 #10
JaneyVee Feb 2013 #11
patricia92243 Feb 2013 #12
leveymg Feb 2013 #17
We People Feb 2013 #41
leveymg Feb 2013 #58
fadedrose Feb 2013 #13
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #19
Jumpin Jack Fletch Feb 2013 #14
cherokeeprogressive Feb 2013 #15
NRaleighLiberal Feb 2013 #16
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #20
NRaleighLiberal Feb 2013 #26
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #30
lunatica Feb 2013 #21
JVS Feb 2013 #23
Smll_Ax3 Feb 2013 #24
jsr Feb 2013 #27
MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #31
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #37
bvar22 Feb 2013 #68
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #86
truebluegreen Feb 2013 #32
jtuck004 Feb 2013 #35
mgardener Feb 2013 #36
eShirl Feb 2013 #46
CrispyQ Feb 2013 #38
truebluegreen Feb 2013 #52
CrispyQ Feb 2013 #104
marions ghost Feb 2013 #83
John2 Feb 2013 #40
Mockingjay Feb 2013 #42
HomerRamone Feb 2013 #47
truebluegreen Feb 2013 #53
kairos12 Feb 2013 #48
Snarkoleptic Feb 2013 #49
Livluvgrow Feb 2013 #51
think Feb 2013 #54
OceanEcosystem Feb 2013 #60
think Feb 2013 #64
OceanEcosystem Feb 2013 #55
H2O Man Feb 2013 #56
ronnie624 Feb 2013 #74
H2O Man Feb 2013 #87
ronnie624 Feb 2013 #88
H2O Man Feb 2013 #92
ronnie624 Feb 2013 #110
Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #59
Benton D Struckcheon Feb 2013 #61
OceanEcosystem Feb 2013 #62
Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #66
JEB Feb 2013 #79
treestar Feb 2013 #63
Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #65
bvar22 Feb 2013 #69
Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #73
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #67
Kalidurga Feb 2013 #70
ProfessionalLeftist Feb 2013 #71
CalFresh Feb 2013 #72
Quantess Feb 2013 #78
nebenaube Feb 2013 #109
hay rick Feb 2013 #108
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #77
bvar22 Feb 2013 #94
Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #95
Shankapotomus Feb 2013 #80
davidn3600 Feb 2013 #81
JEB Feb 2013 #82
Motown_Johnny Feb 2013 #84
Justpat Feb 2013 #85
ancianita Feb 2013 #89
Scuba Feb 2013 #91
datasuspect Feb 2013 #93
elzenmahn Mar 2013 #114
FarCenter Feb 2013 #96
lonestarnot Feb 2013 #97
moondust Feb 2013 #99
Fight2Win Feb 2013 #100
TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #101
OutNow Feb 2013 #102
IADEMO2004 Feb 2013 #103
ShadowLiberal Feb 2013 #106
stuntcat Feb 2013 #107
Skittles Feb 2013 #111
MrScorpio Feb 2013 #112
FreeJoe Feb 2013 #113
valiberal26 Mar 2013 #115
HiPointDem Mar 2013 #116
Amonester Mar 2013 #117

Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:05 AM

1. I would say it started with Reagan. But the 2000 stolen election was a serious blow. nt


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Response to raccoon (Reply #1)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:38 AM

50. So American was at it's height under Carter?

My recollection of the late 70's is a little fuzzy, but somehow, that doesn't sound right. I think perhaps the decline had started before then.

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #50)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:02 AM

57. In some ways, yes

Average working Americans enjoyed their highest ever real purchasing power in 1979. There was inflation, but it was worldwide, due to the rapid rise in oil prices after 1973, and there were cultural upheavals, but they didn't have that much effect on people's overall sense of economic security. We still had a strong industrial base and a higher standard of living than most of Europe.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #57)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 02:38 PM

90. And everyone forgets Ford's campaign slogan. "WIN" for....

Whip Inflation Now

Inflation was here well before Carter.

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Response to Lochloosa (Reply #90)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:38 PM

98. It was Orwellian double-speak for killing wages and little else.

Inflation for what wages buy has marched right on. The inflation that was being whipped was the growth in wages and winding down American production so cheaper imports could be substituted.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:05 AM

2. When the media was bought by the right-wing. Not for the purpose of informing the populace...

...but for the sole purpose of being a propaganda machine.

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:26 AM

43. Yep

The 4th estate is like the 4th leg of a table. A table will stand on three legs but it can be tipped over so easily. A well informed electorate, who can suss out bullshit and lies is so important.


Why were we ever stripped of the fairness doctrine???

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Response to BlueJazz (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:28 AM

45. Exactly,

6 multi-national corporations control the media. They didn't fail, they did the propaganda job they were paid to do. (Sweet Judy Miller) The biggest lie out there is that the media is liberal.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:06 AM

3. we will hopefully be saved by an astroid that can't come too soon...

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:06 AM

4. Answers, yes, and, 1970.

Why 1970? That's the year that American domestic oil production peaked, at about ten million barrels per day. The US economy requires oil; since 1970, an increasing percentage of that oil has been imported, resulting in an increasing amount of US GDP being exported to pay for oil imports. "Decline" as such has very little to do with the actions of politicians; they are symptoms, not the cause. (For historical comparison: the primary energy source for the British Empire was coal; UK coal production? Peaked in 1913.)

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:15 AM

7. ^this

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:41 AM

22. Yep

The heavy metal capitalism practiced in this country requires growth.

Assuming a static paradigm (living rooms on four wheels for personal transport, warehouses on wheels, four thousand mile Caesar salads, etc.) growth requires more energy or efficiency improvements. Problem with efficiency improvements, entropy always gets a vote.

In the end, until we abandon capitalism as currently practiced, develop a steady state, sustainable, economy, there will be a continued decline.

For me, my karma has ran over my dogma. Seems the vast majority want to go over the cliff, so what the hell. Just doing what I can for myself to be ready for a 10 gal. month gas ration (which could be as soon as next week).

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Response to Strelnikov_ (Reply #22)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:51 AM

28. "be ready for a 10 gal. month gas ration"

Do you really think they'll ration like that? I wonder.

I have my Mom's ration stamps from WWII. She was a little girl, but the books have her name on them, because everyone got a share. In today's America, I think rationing will be done via the wallet. If you can afford 100 gallons a week you will be able to buy it, if it's available. If you cannot afford any gas, tough shit.

I just don't see a fair & equitable rationing system being put in place. What do you think?

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:57 AM

33. I'm on rationing already! For years I used to just get ~10 gals at a time ... Now,

I only get ~$10 at a time. I don't know if that makes me use less gas, but somehow a full tank seems to make me drive more ...

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:00 AM

34. I agree.

There will still be rich pigs driving around in 12 mpg Suburbans to the very end, just because they can afford it. The concept of rationing has anchors in ideals such as fairness and sharing. Those ideals don't seem to be operative as driving forces in public policy any more.

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:27 AM

44. I admit, it is more my hope how things will be handled

In practice, you are probably correct, it will be "rationing by price".

Until the riots start, that is, and by then it will be too late . . because once the center is gone . .

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 12:41 PM

75. Well put. n/t

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:14 AM

5. All governments/systems peak and decline

It's inevitable. The real question is what will replace it?

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Response to madville (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:44 AM

25. It's going to be very good or very bad. My observation is that real change generally only

comes about after major catastrophes ... natural, political, etc. I have neither an idea of what that catalyst will be nor the aftermath, but it will happen. None can really think this goes on ad infinitum.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #25)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:52 AM

29. We will probably get a preview

Out of Europe before we go, sooner or later this financial house of cards will collapse.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #25)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:19 AM

39. I don't believe much good will come after major catastrophes...

If not all, at least a faction of the 1% has been successfully practicing Disaster Capitalism/Shock Doctrine for some time now. Austerity cuts are a similar tool that's being pushed here with these political "cliffs" and "crisis" deadlines.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:14 AM

6. Nixon killed the Liberal Era. Reagan killed the Great Society. Bush killed the Constit/Mid Class.

It's been a long downward fall in leaps and bounds with brief pauses to regain our footing in between.

But, really it's been the MIC and the optional wars from Vietnam War on that has bankrupted us.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #6)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 12:46 PM

76. Agreed

but like the OP I also see the Bush 43 Selection as when the avalanche began....

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:40 AM

8. yes

I think a major issue will be how to hold together a union composed of states with such different politics. Contrast California and Vermont versus Mississippi and Kansas. Can we avoid a balkanization of the country eventually ?

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Response to steve2470 (Reply #8)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:33 AM

18. My gut feeling is the US will regionalize to survive. The divides are too great, and as

populations increase in those divides the chasms will grow deeper. The model that one size fits all is getting pretty obsolete IMO. And I really think few in California and Vermont , for example, are going to let areas like Mississippi and Kansas drag their future down with them.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:47 AM

9. 1980 - when working class americans lost their collective minds and pulled the lever for reagan.

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Response to KG (Reply #9)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:40 PM

105. I couldn't agree more...

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:48 AM

10. no

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:49 AM

11. It started with Reagan, election 2000 was the final nail in the coffin.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:01 AM

12. Whoever made the first "free trade" deal. Don't know who it was, but that was the beginning of

the end.

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Response to patricia92243 (Reply #12)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:28 AM

17. Nixon's Ambassador to China, George H.W. Bush, was the point man.

If there is any one figure one can point to and say he was the key figure whose personal efforts led to the massive offshoring and deindustrialization of America, it was Poppy Bush.

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Response to leveymg (Reply #17)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:26 AM

41. I've thought about this topic and I do trace some of it back to that

At the time, it didn't seem to be that damaging, and most of the dialogue about it at the time centered around the capitalism vs. communism topic. It's easier now to look back and put the damaging pieces together, but when some of these events and policies mentioned in this thread were initially emerging, it was hard to foresee how it would affect this country's future.

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Response to We People (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:02 AM

58. What's not so difficult to believe is how successful it was. Mission Accomplished.

Last edited Sat Feb 23, 2013, 03:39 PM - Edit history (2)

The outcome was predictable, given the support of elites in both countries. You take a nation of then 225 million with the highest real wages in the world and offshore its industrial infrastructure to China, which has five times as many workers making 1/20 of the real wages then enjoyed by Americans. Implant a desire for the country of over a billion for an American lifestyle - "To get rich is glorious." Give that two to three decades to gestate.

Nothing surprising about the outcome.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:08 AM

13. Interest rates are too low

People who can't afford any type of mortgage won't be affected by a higher interest rate, but folks who try to save a bit are the real losers.

Less than 1% interest on savings doesn't help the way 5-6% helped when it came to buying something for the house after interest was paid. Then they went crazy and paid 10% or more on CD's, and them that had really made out, more than with a tax decrease or increase.

Interest rates should benefit savings and not just mortgage/car payments.

The real tragedy is the rate charged by stores for purchases. It hinders me from buying more than I can pay in one month. Buying stuff on sale saves money eaten up by the interest rate.

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Response to fadedrose (Reply #13)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:35 AM

19. Interest rates for savings are so low it's not even worth trying to save anything. And the banks are

making out like bandits.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:18 AM

14. No

 

But, since the Republicans have blocked/will block any helpful measures, the answer may as well be Yes.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:22 AM

15. Nnnnnnope

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:25 AM

16. yes. blame entropy...all things go to disorder.

It takes energy (money, will) to delay it.

I hated Physical Chemistry when I took it in college and grad school, but one principle that made an impression is the concept of entropy - and the evidence of it is everywhere around us (why our homes get messy, our relationships get messy, our yards) - unless energy is put in, things just go to disorder.

In political terms, I suppose (coffee hasn't quite kicked in), all empires fall - the lack of input energy shows itself in political squabbling, greed at the top (so infrastructure crumbles, poverty grows) - I suspect we peaked somewhere along the line, but if you look at today's approaches and political disharmony, entropy is definitely kicking in.

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #16)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:39 AM

20. Thank you for posting this. Often I have tried to explain to people (off DU) that

the net entropy of the universe is always increasing and hence reordering disorder is really not possible in terms of probabilities. All I get is a deer in the headlight look.

Yes, IMO, you are quite correct!

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #20)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:49 AM

26. my chemistry PhD is worth something at last!



actually, I did do chemistry in the Pharma industry for a dozen years, but it has now gotten dusty...I am now a garden writer and lecturer!

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Response to NRaleighLiberal (Reply #26)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:53 AM

30. My background in physics helps me to understand! Now, I mostly take care of my cat!

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:40 AM

21. It may be a good thing to be a country in decline

Because what makes us a Superpower is the death we bring to the world, either through endlessly fighting wars or selling arms to countries so they can fight each other, and at some point us.

This country won't end any more than other world powers ended. It'll just change. Let's hope into something better for the world.

We have great potential.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:41 AM

23. it's not irreversible, but it won't be reversed

Errors can't be fixed by continuing them.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:44 AM

24. I tend to think that way too

President Gore, had he taken office, would have lead the country in an opposite direction than shrub did

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:49 AM

27. Yes. Reagan.

It's too late to reverse, because we're so very fucking broke.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:53 AM

31. No more than it was in the late 1920s, IMO.

I'd say that the decline started in the late 1970s as real median income began to decline as skirmishes took place against the 99%. The war began in earnest on Jan 20, 1981. While the economy recovered to some degree under Clinton, as you say, much was unsustainable due to offshoring, etc which caused various economic bubbles. And median income continued to stay pretty flat. And the war against the 99% continued.

If this mess does turn out to be irreversable, the start of the death spiral will be Jan 20, 2001.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #31)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:09 AM

37. I would also say that the fundamental decline continued through the Clinton years

but was masked by temporary booms & bubbles. The tech bubble, the rapid advance of the Internet and the economic consequences of it, etc. All that liquid cash floating around fueled the real estate market, setting us up for that bubble as well. Remember that offshoring, bank deregulation, NAFTA, welfare reform, the prison boom, and many other economic perversities were either started or accelerated while Clinton was in office.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #37)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:50 AM

68. I agree.

The irreversible decline began when the Democratic Party abdicated its role of protecting the Working Class under Bill Clinton and the "Centrists".

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #68)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:15 PM

86. Of course you do.

You, Manny, certain others we could both name, and I usually seem to be reliable members of the Pony-Deprived Brigade who are always whining about the advent of the Sensible Centrists.

I trust that in this crowd I don't need the sarcasm thingie, to which I have a long-standing cognitive allergy.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:56 AM

32. I'd say the peak of our accomplishments was the moon landing

Last edited Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:44 AM - Edit history (1)

but the real moral decay set in when Ford pardoned Nixon, ending the rule of law for the powerful.

Economic decay began with deregulation (Carter and the airlines were first, I think) and the uncoupling of wages from productivity (Raygun). Clinton certainly didn't help, no matter how prosperous the 90s seemed. I disagree that "we had recovered economically"; we certainly didn't return to a condition where a single income could support the average household, or a student could put him/herself through school waiting tables, as was true in the sixties.

Yes, we are a long way down the road in decline, and I doubt if we will make it back.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:02 AM

35. The day the first Native American was killed so we could live on their land? n/t

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:05 AM

36. I'd go back further and say

It began when we did not impeach Nixon.
We allowed that man, a sitting POTUS to lie, and try to sway an election.
And the republican have the nerve to complain about election fraud.

I think letting Nixon get away with what he did, allowed the republicans to feel that they were so powerful, they could get away with anything. We see that in regan and the Iran contra , and Bush, election 2000 and the Iraq war.
We NEVER hold republicans responsible for their actions.

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Response to mgardener (Reply #36)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:29 AM

46. Only reason Nixon wasn't impeached was he resigned first.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:12 AM

38. Yes.

It started when they took out JFK, MLK & RFK. Four decades later, they are perpetrating Shock Doctrine state by state. Even if these dictatorial governors get voted out of office, how long to undo the damage done by the likes of Scott, Snyder, & Walker? When will gerrymandered districts be redrawn fairly?

The system is corrupt & compromised. The very people who can fix are beneficiaries of the status quo & therefore will not fix it. Also, too many of the People are either apathetic or ignorant.

Someone advocating on behalf of the 2nd amendment called our house the other day asking for donations. I told him the real amendments that are in jeopardy are the 4th & 5th & asked if he had heard of the NDAA. I told him the 2nd is mostly a distraction to keep the focus off of what is happening to your most basic rights as a person. He hung up on me.

Truth hurts & people don't want to hear it.


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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #38)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:51 AM

52. I've thought the same thing.

Something was lost in the heart of this country when those 3 were killed. It seems we have been fighting, and losing, a defensive battle ever since.

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Response to truebluegreen (Reply #52)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:35 PM

104. It was a "trifecta."

The irony. That I quote a puppet, who was not legally voted into the Presidency, where he did so much damage,

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Response to CrispyQ (Reply #38)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:11 PM

83. You forgot

Gov Untrasound McDonnell VA and the ALEC candidate, McCrory NC.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:24 AM

40. I have a different view

 

of this supposedly decline. My view is holistic. America is evolving and going through growing pains. There are forces that are fighting these changes but are losing the battle. I compare this to what President Lincoln eventually came to grips with during the Civil War. They are natural forces no person has control over. Years after your generation is gone, this will not be an America recognized by your generation just like generations before us. Even the Civil War was a seismic event that bought about changes and it was painful.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:26 AM

42. For me it was the day

Kennedy was assinated. I was in the eight grade.....and felt something was terribly wrong with this country. I did not believe that just one man...alone could have done such a terrible deed. There were lies and more lies taking over the country and you could feel this dark omen taking root from that day forward.

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Response to HomerRamone (Reply #47)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:52 AM

53. +100 nt

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:32 AM

48. Ronnie Raygun doubling the national debt

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:35 AM

49. I'm with Hunter S. Thompson in thinking that Nixon killed the American dream.

Or at least woke us up from it.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:49 AM

51. This started

with the death of Kennedy. We have been on a downward trajectory ever since.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:59 AM

54. America still has the capacity to do great things

including:

Restoring the constitution
Ending the war on drugs
Declaring hemp a victory crop
Reducing the world's largest prison population
Ending our dependence on fossil fuels
Ending the never ending war on terror
Bringing military spending back to reality
Adopting single payer healthcare
Breaking the banking monopoly
Open sourcing learning
And respecting the rights and freedoms of all individuals both here and across the globe


What can I say? I'm an optimist and this is a democratic forum....

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Response to think (Reply #54)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:06 AM

60. American certainly has the capacity, but not the willpower.

 

Technically almost any nation has the capability to do great things, but just not the willpower, unity or inspiration to do so.

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Response to OceanEcosystem (Reply #60)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:25 AM

64. I remain optimistic that the tide is turning

but respect your opinion.

And I've been wrong many times before. But sometimes stubborn optimism pay smalls rewards that only come through determination to see the whole dream awaken.....

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 10:59 AM

55. America is in irreversible decline just like the Roman Empire.

 

"Bread and circuses."


As for when the decline started, I'd actually say it started after the end of World War II. That was the apex of American power relative to the rest of the world.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:01 AM

56. No.

It is in probable irreversible decline, though. Everything organic, from the tiniest creatures on earth, to the largest living things, do have a life-cycle: they must either grow, or decay. And as human history proves, empires fit into that cycle ....they grow and then decay. The seeds for their self-destruction are always found within, just as surely as a plant contains its seeds.

However, when there are seeds within decay, there is also the chance for rebirth and further growth. Hence, the United States as it has been, and is now, cannot possible continue to grow in a healthy, meaningful way. But the basic principles, if the organic matter ("people") were to reach a higher moral, spiritual, and intellectual plain, could definitely grow into something far more beautiful than what America has been to date.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #56)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 12:40 PM

74. I would exclude the 'spiritual' part.

It's inconsistent with secularism, and some of us are atheists, anyway.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #74)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:18 PM

87. You would; I wouldn't.

Atheists can be as spiritual as anyone else.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #87)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:49 PM

88. You are mistaken.

Human society needs now, more than ever, to move in a direction guided by logic, reason and a sense of cooperation, which would preclude 'spirituality', a primary foundation for human conflict.

spirituality:

1: something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2: clergy
3: sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4: the quality or state of being spiritual

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spirituality

Atheists, by definition, cannot possibly be 'spiritual', and neither can a secular society.

I will not reply to any additional nonsense.

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Response to ronnie624 (Reply #88)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 04:53 PM

92. Spirituality does not

form any stumbling block to atheism. Ignorance can be be stumbling blocks to either, as you have so kindly illustrated.

I don't care if you respond or not. I wasn't the one who initiated a conversation between us.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #92)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 12:48 AM

110. I can't accuse you of ignorance, as I have read many of your posts,

but for some reason, you feel such a strong need to be 'right', that you are prone to making some very stupid comments.

Good day to you, Mr Waterman.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:04 AM

59. SOME people had recovered from Reagan by 2000

It was in the 1990s that I first encountered people who had lost their jobs after age 50 and never worked full-time again. Already wages were failing to keep up with inflation, and the housing bubble had started, placing home ownership out of the reach of more and more people unless they fell for stupid bankster tricks like interest-only mortgages.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:11 AM

61. Not irreversible

I have this table in my head:

Dem cycle Rep cycle
===============
FDR..............Reagan
Truman.........Bush the First
Eisenhower....Clinton
JFK/LBJ.........Bush the 2nd
Nixon...........Obama
Carter..........(Some Republican???)

Carter himself was a Democratic Hoover (although a much much better President), in that he was the last in the cycle of Democratic Presidents that started with FDR.
Obama is much like Nixon in that Nixon, even though we don't think of him that way, was moderate for a Republican. Remember, he was the one who proposed to Ted Kennedy an employer mandate for health care. Teddy, wanting single-payer, rejected it. He came to regret rejecting that proposal. It would have been much better than Obamacare.
Obama, I think we can all agree, is a moderate, not really a liberal. He appears that way now to his right wing opponents, but only because they're so over-the-top crazy.
Point being, after the next Republican president, I'm thinking we finally get a modern version of FDR in the White House. I have no idea who that will be, but it will begin a new cycle of regeneration for this country.
So while I think we're in decline, I don't think it's irreversible.

Is there an easier way to put a table together here? Doesn't seem to take vb or html tags for a table. (This place doesn't seem to take much of any vb tags or html tags actually. Very hit or miss.)

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:14 AM

62. The main reason for America's decline is attitude, not circumstances.

 

It's the "entitlement" attitude - "I deserve this," "I deserve that."

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Response to OceanEcosystem (Reply #62)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:29 AM

66. The Banksters and hedge fund managers and CEOs are the worst offenders

Agree?

Or are you talking about "welfare mothers"?

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Response to OceanEcosystem (Reply #62)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:02 PM

79. American exceptioalism is

the mass delusion that keeps so many from seeing the truth. How can we put things back together if we are blind?

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:14 AM

63. No, but a rough patch

Basically caused due to the Bush selection, leading him to be President on 911.

911 would have caused problems regardless, but with the neocons having popular support due to their new Pearl Harbor, it was bad luck and increased the problems tenfold.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:26 AM

65. We would need three things to stop declining or at least to decline in a way that

didn't hurt a lot of people:

1) An aware populace Good luck with that unless things get really bad, because hey, there's a football game on, and after that, channels and channels of reality shows and "news" channels that treat showbiz gossip as being of earthshaking importance. Talk about "opiate of the people"! And that's among the people who DON'T patronize right-wing media. One of my Facebook friends who used to live in Spain has posted reports from the Spanish press about really massive demonstrations and public suicides taking place to protest austerity measures, as well as solidarity among different classes of workers. So far, these reports have been either ignored or minimized in other countries. Don't want to give the proles ideas, you know.

2) Leadership. Various movements start up but fade for lack of organization and leadership, not to mention lack of networking and PR smarts. Oh, and then there's the infighting among leftist groups. "I can't work with those people because everyone knows that the Truth is X, and they think the Truth is X'." Sometimes the entire Left seems like that scene in Life of Brian with the Judean People's Liberation Front and the People's Front for the Liberation of Judea.

3)Political parties need to get out of the way. The Republican (of course!) and Democratic (sad to say) political establishments are afraid of real change that would upset the corporate contributors, remove themselves from political power, or modify "the way we've always done things." If you believe that "all we need is to elect more Democrats," boy, are you naive. We need to elect a different kind of Democrat and not be all caught up in party labels instead of action. Your parents may have told you, "Believe what people do, not what they say." That's good advice in politics as well as in interpersonal relationships.

National and state Democrats may sabotage or refuse to endorse candidates with real grassroots support in favor of some advocate of conventional wisdom.

They may co-opt or defuse popular movements. I recently spoke to someone who was active in the Wisconsin protests last year. He said that there was a huge momentum building for a general strike, but not only did the national Dems not support the idea but the state Dems instituted the "Recall Walker" campaign, which sapped energy from the main activities and, of course, failed. (That's one person's account, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true, given what I've observed in the past.)

We have to get over the "team sport" view of politics.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #65)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:57 AM

69. DURec for Post #65 by Lydia Leftcoast!

Under #2 "Leadership"
I would add that TPTB have become adept at decapitating Leadership of the Opposition through marginalization, expulsion, or assassination.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #69)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 12:03 PM

73. That too, and we've seen all of those in our lifetimes

It's bad enough when Republicans ridicule or vilify some of our best Dems, but it's infuriating when Dem Establishment types join in the pile-on--as we have often seen on DU.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:34 AM

67. Being an empire is a hard act to perform. We're getting booed off the stage. That's showbiz.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:59 AM

70. No we have the tools to change...

But, I believe the change is going to have to come from millions, a large percent of our population becoming more aware of their own personal well being.

My take on what has to change is a bit different. In order to change we need a healthier population. Right now many of us are sick and coping. Most are sick without ever really realizing it they have just learned to live with not being totally healthy.

We need to keep the pressure on making GMOs illegal. The practice of milking cows that have been treated with antibiotics and putting that crap in the dairy supply. Current methods of factory farming have to go, it is not a sustainable way of life. People need to look a lot harder at what they are eating and I don't mean looking at it and evaluating it in terms of what was healthy 40 years ago. They need to look at how the food is produced and where it comes from.

I read somewhere that 66% of Americans are overweight. That doesn't mean all of them are unhealthy, but if you are putting on weight it's a good time to make sure that isn't a symptom of some other kind of problem like low metabolism or depression or any number of issues that will cause you to want to eat more. It could just be a symptom of eating food that has been highly processed and simply (ha ha like this is easy) eliminating a lot of processed foods can reverse the weight back to normal. Of course if you are like me and have become obese then it's a lot harder, but hopefully I can get my health issues under control. In any case I think obesity is a symptom of a lot deeper issues, it's not the cause of anything.

So, hopefully we have more people picking up the torch for living a healthier lifestyle including not eating a lot of processed foods, meat that has been treated with growth hormones, soybeans that have been genetically modified, and getting rid of our factory farm system.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:59 AM

71. IMO yes. Started in the 1970s or at the latest 1980s. n/t

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 12:01 PM

72. It started when

 

the TV came into our homes. I say the late 50s.

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Response to CalFresh (Reply #72)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 12:55 PM

78. It started when teenagers started going to co-ed dances

and got introduced to reefer.

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Response to Quantess (Reply #78)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:21 PM

109. bullshit.

 

It started when Prescott Bush decided he wanted his money back.

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Response to CalFresh (Reply #72)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:20 PM

108. I think TV's a bigger factor than most suppose.

Americans started thinking like consumers. Instead of being citizens in a collective enterprise, they became atomistic consumers, looking for bargains and looking out for themselves. Political parties and special interests also started thinking about the people as consumers- of propaganda.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 12:47 PM

77. I blame Reagan. We've never totally recovered from the blows he dealt us.

I don't think it HAS to be irreversible. But the RW is sure working overtime to make sure it is.

After all, they want to return us to the Dark Ages, and as they say, Rome wasn't built in a day.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #77)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 05:12 PM

94. We "could" have recovered from Reagan easily...

..if the Democratic Party had not abandoned the Working Class and Organized LABOR
to the new gods of "Free Trade" and the myth of the "Invisible Hand".

I have many problems with the "Centrist" Clinton Administration,
but I was most disappointed by what he DID NOT do,
which was work to repair the damage done under Reagan.

On Day ONE, Bill Clinton should have:
*put Carter's Solar Hot Water Panels BACK on the roof of the White House,
and
*fired the SCAB Air Traffic Controllers and replaced them with UNION workers.

The Centrist Democrats have proved that America is not big enough for another Republican Party.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone


photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #94)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:14 PM

95. Ha, during the Reagan administration,

I was frozen out of my local county Dem organization (in Oregon) for proposing a resolution condenming the interventions in Central America. This was before the Internet, and suddenly I no longer got their monthly newsletter or invitations to events. When I met officers of the organization on the street and asked them how come I wasn't getting mailings, they'd say, "You must have d forgotten to give us your new address when you moved." Only I had NOT moved, and when I said this, they just shrugged. I never got back on the mailing list.
The leaders must have been DLC types, because Al Gore, Sam Nunn, and others were Contra supporters.
This was about 1988, and I did not participate actively in Dem politics until the Kucinich campaign in 2004.
I wonder how many other people have been frozen out of the Dems by the damned "moderates."

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:05 PM

80. If you let Conservative ideology

stand for America, then yes, America is in decline with Conservative who are dragging it down with them. If you can manage to amputate America from the conservatives, then no, I think our better half, namely Liberals and Democrats, will save America.

I think the majority of Democrats in government are generally good and want to change America for the better. Republicans and the periodic election threats they pose through their idiot constituents are just in our way. We need a sane second party to replace Republicanism.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:06 PM

81. NAFTA, and failure in the 1970s and 80s for an energy policy

It looks like we did well in the 1990s but much of that was the result of the Soviet collapse as well as the dot-com bubble.

But the two big things I think has really hurt this country is free trade and energy. Treaties like NAFTA has led to the loss of millions of manufacturing jobs. And we are now reliant on foreign sources of energy.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:07 PM

82. When women

got the vote.


----sarcasm----

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:12 PM

84. The country never recovered from Reagan, not even close.

When he took office the top tax rate was 70%. When he left it was 28%. Now the fact that we moved the rate from 35% to 39% for people over $400K a year (instead of $250 like before) means that "More Tax Increases Are OFF THE TABLE!".

This is just one example of the damage done during those 8 years. The union busting of the Republican party being institutionalized is another. The cuts to public education that have already damaged the lives of two generations and is well on it's way to damaging two more is among the worst.

The debt problem also was created under Reagan, now the interest on that debt is one of the biggest drivers of the debt, it is a vicious spiral downward.

Arming Bin Laden, illegally arming Iran... the list goes on and on.



I don't think it is irreversible but IMO it began the moment Reagan was elected.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:13 PM

85. It began in the sixties


when JFK, RFK and MLK were assassinated.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 02:18 PM

89. I'm inclined to agree that it was the Sixties. Noam Chomsky reminds us that "historical amnesia"

opens the door to further aggression.

He says, in Power Systems: "Historical amnesia is a dangerous henomenon, not only because it undermines moral and intellectual integrity, but also because it lays the groundwork for cromes tht still lie ahead...that this year is the 50th anniversary of John F. Kennedy's decision to launch the war against South Vietnam. Forgetting that this was the launching of one of the major atrocities in post-WWII history, he says, is a pretty severe example of our "historical amnesia."

I think our decline began with our leadership's immoral judgment, and slowly metastasized toward the rest of the MIC and their once-unknowing and innocent participants. It is hard for a people to learn that organized propaganda has duped them -- so much that entire jingoist cultures now abound -- but we have been duped.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 03:09 PM

91. Dallas, November 22, 1963.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 05:01 PM

93. not comatose media

 

COMPLICIT media.

bought and paid for media.

propaganda organ of the 1% media.

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Response to datasuspect (Reply #93)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 09:16 PM

114. Agreed...

...and it got even worse with the end of the Fairness Doctrine. That, and the Telecommunications Act of 1996 (Thank you, Bubba! )

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:29 PM

96. After WW II we had the world's only intact industry and all the gold in Fort Knox

There was huge disparity in wealth between nations during the '50s, with the US far ahead of everyone else, since the other major industrial nations had either had their industries destroyed or had dissapated their capital paying for arms.

The disparity between nations could not last, so the US is in decline relative to others.

Since the global population cannot all live at US GDP/capita levels without destroying the earth's environment, the disparity between nations will be replaced by greater disparity within nations.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:29 PM

97. Yes.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 06:53 PM

99. Probably.

Reagan & Co. cut any remaining restraints on sociopathic greed and selfishness and began the public demonization of the things capable of tempering inequality--government and unions.

However, as late as 2000 the place was still salvageable thanks to Clinton/Gore balancing the federal budget during the good years of tech boom and healthy tax revenues. It's possible that offshoring and automation would have continued to devastate the job market during a Gore administration, but at least there wouldn't have been so much warmaking or foolish tax cuts making matters much worse.

It may be capitalism that is in "irreversible decline." It doesn't seem to work that well in fully developed markets where most of the growth has already been realized, after which it can become cannibalistic and predatory.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:00 PM

100. we can fix it just as easily as they fucked it up,by doing the exact opposite

 

Remember Clinton? I know he wasn't perfect, but things were a lot better back then

But we need to undo some things he did like 'free' trade, and consolidating the media.

We need to demand Republicans follow real conservatives like Eisenhower.

They need to pay for their damn wars and big government, so raise income tax on the highest earners until it is paid off.

Then we cut the pentagon budget. Bush doubled it, Obama kept it there why?

Let's reduce it to lower levels than when Bush took office and demand audits WTF!

We need to eliminate Homeland Security, total BS, why is Obama continuing it and again it is unable to be audited.

We need to fight, not just welcome feelings of learned helplessness.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:17 PM

101. Yes to in decline, it was on the march by the 70's, and no it isn't actually irreversible

Abut there the will is not there and it is all but impossible under the current paradigm.

What I am saying is declining is not our superpower status (I'm just flat not addressing that here, one way or the other) but rather America as a nation of self determination, a democracy, where civil liberties are real, where justice even has a chance, where there is opportunity and broad upward mobility and the rule of law is at least the rule.

We can do better.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:17 PM

102. Name the date - August 15, 1971

If we can attribute the WWII and post WWII era as the pinnacle of American power, economic supremacy, etc. then we can also identity the date when it began its decline: August 15, 1971. On that date the USA cancelled the Bretton Woods agreement. There are other events that matter of course, as we chart our slow (and sometimes not so slow) decline including the NAFTA accord, the elimination of the Glass-Steagall Act, etc.

Can we reverse the decline? Probably not. OTOH, are we sure that we want to reverse the decline? Do we really want to rule the world, overthrow governments that we don't like, produce more pollution than any other nation? I don't.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:33 PM

103. Bluto/Animal House "Nothing is over until we decide it is!



" Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

"Whats all this lying around shit"

"Lets Go"

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:06 PM

106. Different parts of our decline started at different times

To me there's several parts of our decline that occurred decades apart that are causing our decline today.

Reason #1: We switched from having a bare bone military to the largest full time military ever.

Before WW2, there were very few people who called themselves career military people. For every war till then we had enough career military people to do two things.
1) Train up lots (hundreds of thousands, or even millions) of new people as soon as a war started.
2) Start fighting the war ASAP till the new people were ready to join the battle.

This is a bit risky if you get invaded, or if most of your career military people are in a part of the nation that succeeds from the union (like in the Civil War), but MUCH cheaper. And since politicians have to institute a draft most of the time for a war, it makes them think through the consequences more from all the voters it'll anger who are drafted.

Reason #2: When it comes to paying off our national debt, we should have done something when it was close to/just passed the 1 trillion dollar mark in the 1980's under Reagan.

We passed a trillion dollars of debt under Reagan, and the national debt has gone up much faster ever since. In part it's from conservatives getting emboldened by Reagan being so successful and being convinced for a while that deficits don't matter. In part it's also the same kind of statistical reasons that of all the people who earn a 6 figure salary, over 30% of them earn between $100,000 to $199,999. As a business or an individual growing your income, the closer you are to breaking into the next digit (a million dollars in this case) the easier it is for you to climb above a 10th of that number (earning another $100,000 in this case), because you have more financial resources to bring in more money quicker as you get closer to breaking into 7 digit income.

The same thing applies for our debt. The more debt we have the more we keep paying out in interest on that debt each year, and the less we have to spend on everything else.

Reason #3: The hidden damage of the War on Terrorism.

The war on terrorism and all the other bad policies and stuff started under Bush in the name of it have caused a lot of damage to us.

1) It costs a hell a lot of money all those wars.
2) We've been burning a lot of our moral high ground, such as using torture, something we had NEVER done for over a century before then even when we knew our enemies were torturing our own captured soldiers (and we also tortured in violation of international law).
3) We've pissed a lot of people off and made a lot of enemies to with the war.

Reason #4: All the corporate and lobbyist cash corrupting things so much.

Seriously, as an example of this I'm going to use the pro-Intelliectual Property industry, but this applies to pretty much any industry that lobbies congress for legislation they want. If you read sites like techdirt, it's just disgusting how corrupt a lot of our government people have been by them and their lobbyists. I'm NOT just talking congress or presidents, I'm talking even Diplomats and Ambassadors have been corrupted by these people and their money. Diplomats and Ambassadors are basically doing the bidding of corporations by pushing for laws in other countries the lobbyists pay them to push for. Seriously, why can't they just hire lobbyists in those countries to get the laws passed they want instead of corrupting our diplomats and ambassadors?

Jack Abramoff even said in his book that the best tool to corrupt government officials that he used when he got jail time was offer people much higher paying jobs in a few years if they do their bidding in the government. Abramoff even said that at that point the corrupted aides and congressmen not only pass whatever the lobbyists want pass, they even come up with their own stuff to help the lobbyist that they didn't even ask for.

It was calculated somewhere what the return on investment of funding congressmen is, it was something absurd, well over a 10,000% return on investment on average, maybe even closer to 100,000% return on investment. You can't have a functioning government when just about everyone is corrupted by lobbyists or other people with lots of money.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:00 PM

107. All humanity is.

Not just saying junk, mark my word, this century will be a pathetic shame on our species.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 03:51 AM

111. it started with reagan

he made greed and idiocy fashionable and it pushed capitalism into its current extreme form of fucking everyone but the 1%

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:42 AM

112. Unless we can get the Republicans and the corporations under control and restart democracy…

Then the answer is an unequivocal YES!

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 06:43 AM

113. Definitely not

We will almost certainly face relative decline. After all, you can't expect to be the world's dominant economy, culture, and military power forever. We will face some tough times ahead as you cannot perpetually under tax or over spend. We will need to make a difficult transition away from heavily carbon based energy sources. Adjusting to a shrinking population and longer lifespans will bring challenges. I am still confident that standards of living will overall improve like that have been doing for hundreds of years.

I look at it this way. Spain, France, Turkey, Egypt, Rome, and Britain have all declined considerably relative to other countries since their peak power days, but their citizen s live much better lives than they did during those peak periods.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 10:21 PM

115. The decline isn't irrevisible.

 

Certain measures can be taken to rectify the situation; they are harsh measures and not for the weak of heart. But those measures can ensure that the situation would be corrected and true equality granted to the common man. I've written a manifesto on the subject; but this is not the place to post it.

A list of possible measures would include the abolition of the two-party system; ideally placing the Democratic Party in ultimate control; reducing the remaining parties to clusters of a few hundred members at best with no real voice. Reducing the individual states to geographical regions for census and financial purposes, stripping them of their remaining powers to create and enforce legislation. A reduction of the military to a standing force of 25,000 personnel and moving the Department of Defense to a division of the Department of State would remove a large burden on the budget; freeing up funding for other purposes. A shifting of the population to more concentrated urban areas would alleviate our need for fossil fuels, if done so with the creation of a mass public transit system; (less vehicles = less pollution).

In short our Republic needs a reformation from the inside out.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 10:26 PM

116. irreversible? no. but have the economic & political masters of the universe targeted it for

 

decline?

yes.

it's not irreversible, but may continue despite that fact.

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Response to kentuck (Original post)

Fri Mar 1, 2013, 10:37 PM

117. Since Katrina, and yes, a few years earlier....

But with this planet slowly, but surely morphing into a light clone of Venus, it's not just the US that is in decline, but the entire human race.

There's little comfort in that...

And since China's emissions are out-of-control ...

Get it while you can, if you can, I say.

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