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Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:10 PM

Oh well no more vacations in Utah if this shit gets passed

Rep. John Mathis, R-Vernal, is sponsoring H.B. 76, which allows essentially any law-abiding citizen over the age of 21 in the state to carry a gun, openly or concealed.

Utah would effectively become a "constitutional carry" state if the measure is approved. That term refers to a state where carrying a concealed weapon isn't restricted by law.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=757&sid=23828129

I'd rather not get shot by some rethug with his metal penis. I really liked Moab but not with this fucking shit.

62 replies, 4281 views

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Arrow 62 replies Author Time Post
Reply Oh well no more vacations in Utah if this shit gets passed (Original post)
Union Label Feb 2013 OP
mokawanis Feb 2013 #1
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #4
Az_lefty Feb 2013 #2
Kolesar Feb 2013 #3
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #5
Union Label Feb 2013 #6
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #44
krispos42 Feb 2013 #7
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #8
krispos42 Feb 2013 #20
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #21
krispos42 Feb 2013 #24
madinmaryland Feb 2013 #9
EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #10
krispos42 Feb 2013 #23
CreekDog Feb 2013 #11
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #14
2theleft Feb 2013 #15
krispos42 Feb 2013 #22
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #30
krispos42 Feb 2013 #41
Hoyt Feb 2013 #31
krispos42 Feb 2013 #42
Hoyt Feb 2013 #45
krispos42 Feb 2013 #48
Hoyt Feb 2013 #50
krispos42 Feb 2013 #53
sikofit3 Feb 2013 #55
Shankapotomus Feb 2013 #46
krispos42 Feb 2013 #49
Shankapotomus Feb 2013 #51
krispos42 Feb 2013 #54
Shankapotomus Feb 2013 #60
Bandit Feb 2013 #52
krispos42 Feb 2013 #57
Scootaloo Feb 2013 #36
krispos42 Feb 2013 #43
GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #62
Skip Intro Feb 2013 #17
Kolesar Feb 2013 #37
Blue_In_AK Feb 2013 #12
GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #13
kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #19
GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #25
Hoyt Feb 2013 #32
aquart Feb 2013 #38
GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #59
nakocal Feb 2013 #16
GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #26
aquart Feb 2013 #39
sarisataka Feb 2013 #18
sad-cafe Feb 2013 #27
mwrguy Feb 2013 #33
lob1 Feb 2013 #34
Kolesar Feb 2013 #40
OceanEcosystem Feb 2013 #28
Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #35
Recursion Feb 2013 #29
hack89 Feb 2013 #47
JoePhilly Feb 2013 #56
hughee99 Feb 2013 #58
Taverner Feb 2013 #61

Response to Union Label (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:17 PM

1. My version of a Utah vacation

is to head into a wilderness area for 5 or 6 days and hope I don't encounter any humans (the most dangerous critters on the planet).

As for the proposed legislation - Mathis is an asshole, and a dangerous one at that. People who think like he does get other people killed.

Of course a lot of gun-nuts will heartily endorse his lethal stupidity.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:22 PM

4. I'm getting so I feel more comfortable the less humans, the most dangerous critters on the planet,

are around me.

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:18 PM

2. sorry to hear Utah is following Arizona

The state where I live under the ctazy party of Maricopa county

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:22 PM

3. That's how the gun industry expands their market for their gun

Utah has a low crime rate, you don't need a gun, but removing restrictions makes more people want to carry them.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:24 PM

5. Yep, it's all about $$$$$, guns and ammunition, big sellers. So sad a product to push. Frankly,

I think drugs are far less of a threat.

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Response to RKP5637 (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:41 PM

6. your right about that

I know drugs are lot less of a threat the only thing thats threatened when we smoke weed is my chip stash.

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Response to Union Label (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:26 AM

44. LOL

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:43 PM

7. If the sight of guns scares you that much...

...then you should probably not go. Your freakout may scare somebody and cause the exact situation you fear.

I mean, Utah's murder rate is 1.9, less than half the national average. But apparently the idea that people can be armed, and not be bloodthirsty psychopaths itching for a chance to legally kill somebody, is foreign to you.


Do you really think that in Utah, which already had a pretty permissive concealed-carry law, all of a sudden there is going to be a vast increase of people carrying concealed? And that they're all going to be Dirty Harry wannabes?

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:47 PM

8. Nope, sorry

The exact situation the poster fears can ONLY be caused by someone with a gun. You guys are really going to have to start owning your fetish; quit blaming the rest of us for wanting a peaceful, less threatening, less lethal world.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:07 AM

20. Well, that's pretty obvious

The poster fears, allegedly, he'll be shot by some knuckle-dragging redneck dreaming about shooting somebody legally. That exact situation requires a gun. If he was fearful of drowning, that situation would logically require water of some sort.

The question is "how rational is that fear?" It's not very rational. It's like the people who are afraid to fly, so they drive. You and I both know that car travel is far more dangerous per mile traveled than air travel.


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Response to krispos42 (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:12 AM

21. No, actually the question is one of causality

You kind of made it that way in your hypothetical when you said the other poster would be the cause of such an event. Let's just mix all our metaphors and cliches and say it thusly: it takes two to tango, but you can't start a fire without a spark, or a shooting without a gun.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:19 AM

24. It's why Florida doesn't have any snowmobile fatalities

And why Minnesota's shark-attack rate is zero.

I understand that.

But, you can't create the conditions for no shootings in Utah, or any state, because all states have and will continue to have guns.

Furthermore, a shooting can be good or bad. Self-defense or criminal offense both can involve gunplay.

Finally, we must remember that guns are not the motive for killing, they are the tool.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:20 PM

9. No. The sight of incompetent idiots running around with their guns hanging out of their

pants scares me. Incompetent idiots like Wayne LaPierre.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:23 PM

10. If the murder rate is that low, then they sure as hell don't need their tool of paranoia...

 

On them at all times.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:15 AM

23. Hmmm....

...so if the crime rate is low, nobody needs to carry concealed because there is no threat. And if the crime rate is high, nobody can carry concealed because we have to staunch the flow of stolen guns to the criminals.

Nice.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:28 PM

11. the murder rate in my city is 1.6

and we aren't loosening gun laws here.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:33 PM

14. Skip the lecture, please....

....the more people who run around armed, concealed or not, the greater the chances become that one of them is going to be a whack-job wanting to gain a reputation for the most people killed in a single day.

There's a reason why municipalities in the Wild West passed laws prohibiting guns inside the town limits...can you guess why that was?

There's also a reason why the military keeps their weapons locked-up in armories when they're not in combat situations....can you guess why that is?

And no, as a veteran, guns don't scare me, but whack-jobs who can easily get one at a gun show or under the table REALLY worry me. People who aren't concerned about that worry me even more.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #14)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:40 PM

15. + 1,000,000

Not a veteran, but grew up around hunters who all had plenty of guns and am not scared of them in general. Agree with everything you said.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:14 AM

22. The numbers do not bear our your assumption.

Concealed carry has steadily climbed the last twenty years or so. The homicide rate has fallen. The trend line for single and multiple-victim homicides is showing a decline.

Trying to limit the small segment of the population that routinely carries guns in order to prevent spree shootings is a fallacy. Spree shootings are done by people that get their guns from home, drive to a location, and start shooting. They are NOT done by people that routinely carry who, all of a sudden, decide to slaughter a busload of nuns because their expresso wasn't hot enough.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:41 AM

30. What numbers? You haven't presented any. nt.

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:21 AM

41. now you know how I feel

After all, neither have you.






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Response to krispos42 (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:26 AM

31. Carrying guns in most public areas is proof enough of little concern for others/society.

Honestly, do we really to pollute public places with armed citizens?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:23 AM

42. Not as much as doing drugs

After all, people that use pot, cocaine, and crystal meth are contributing far more to American death and destruction than those legally carrying concealed.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #42)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:48 AM

45. Don't know what drugs have to do with it, but you guys certainly have creative excuses to keep

yourselves in guns.

Is that why you carry and promote more guns in more places?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #45)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 08:55 AM

48. Really?

So all the dead bodies from drug gangs have nothing to do with drug users?

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:57 AM

50. Do you need your guns because you often interact with drug gangs?

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #50)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:44 AM

53. Are you going to judge whether I need guns or not? n/t

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #50)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:49 AM

55. Please

Lets not entertain this thinking.... ignore him. They can't see the rationality of it all and never will... if no one ever gave gun defenders a second of their time, their threads would drop to nothing and they would go away or be delegated to one way comments....

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #42)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:55 AM

46. How do you propse

to win this argument when criminals get their guns either legally themselves or by stealing them from law-abiding citizens like Adam Lanza's mother?

No matter how you look at it, the LEGAL access to assault weapons (all firearms really) is eventually what puts guns in the hands of bad guys. The supply chain always leads back to a legal purchase. Even weapons criminals steal or buy illegally on the underground black market are available because somewhere they were first legally purchased by an individual or gun shop owner. You don't get a lot of criminals knocking over armories or gun factories.



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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:02 AM

49. The bad guys are bad guys independent of armaments.

The motives for committing crimes are independent of weapons available. Only a third of armed robberies, for example, are committed with guns.

We can do things to limit access of guns to criminals, which will help somewhat, but let's face it; if I gave you a sack full of Glocks, you're not going to decided to start robbing 7-Elevens.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #49)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:15 AM

51. "...which will help somewhat..."

That's all that really counts in this debate, afaic. Robberies are not the issue. It's about preventing deaths from guns. If nobody can get high capacity guns, pardon my language, you're damn right it will help.

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Response to Shankapotomus (Reply #51)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:45 AM

54. Then can I count on your support for a nationwide 5mph speed limit?

Are you going to deny that limiting cars to 5mph will save tens of thousands of lives a year?

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #54)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:29 PM

60. You are talking to an environmental and clean energy advocate

Sure. If you make it more realistic, you can count on my support for a gasoline engine vehicle ban for the mass of drivers (except for emergency and large shipment vehicles) and a little over horse and buggy top speed limit in the remaining electric and clean fuel vehicles. There's no reason, except for emergency personal vehicles and government officials, for the mass of private vehicles to be capable of the speeds they can reach. If you have to get to work that fast, work closer to home. If there aren't enough jobs closer to home, the government needs to promote self-sufficient living models and technology. No reason people have to die for a car ride. It's the wage slave dependent, borrow and charge economy that promotes our maddening life-style. The whole reason we are driving so much is because we can't afford to live on this earth because our individual futures have been hijacked to pay for houses, rents and cars. If the government was doing its job in all these areas, which is organizing a more efficient self-sufficient society, we wouldn't have these multi-layered and interrelated problems.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #49)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:32 AM

52. You are constantly talking about gun crimes.....how about accidents?

I belioeve there are just as many if not more gun related injuries and deaths from accidents than from robberies gone bad or gang shoot-outs... The more guns there are in more public places the higher the odds tha accidents will occur...Pretty Basic...

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Response to Bandit (Reply #52)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:24 PM

57. CDC says otherwise.

There are a couple of hundred truly accidental fatalities a year. That's it.


And again, we're taking about an increase in honest people carrying guns. People that are not career criminals. Concealed carry has been expanded steadily for the last 20-25 years, and the homicide and accident rates have dropped steadily.

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:23 AM

36. Global temperatures have risen, while acts of piracy have fallen

It's kismet, I tells ya!

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #36)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:26 AM

43. We need to import more lemons from Mexico

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:44 PM

62. What makes you think such a whack-job will obey your gun laws?

He is about to commit lots of murders - that's the ultimate in illegality. Yet you think such a person will be detered because it is illegal to carry a gun?

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:17 PM

17. +100. nt

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Response to krispos42 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:11 AM

37. "You're scared" says Mr. Macho ... eom

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:29 PM

12. Stay away from Alaska, too.

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:32 PM

13. Too bad. You will miss one of the most beautiful states in the nation.

I have been fortunate enough to have travelled across across all 48 continous states, multiple times, in all seasons. (Former long haul 18-wheeler driver) Utah is one of the tops for natural beauty.

Law-abiding people who carry guns are not a threat to you, unless you are planning on doing something criminal and violent.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:43 PM

19. Virtually every mass killing I can think of was done by some

supposedly law abiding person - until the very bad day when they weren't. I'll stay far away from a state where paranoid but law-abiding folks pack heat and expect trouble around every corner. Because they sure are going to find it sooner or later, and probably be the cause of it.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:27 AM

25. Rampage shooters are extremely rare.

All but a very few murders are done by the ones and twos, and almost all of those are by people with prior violent criminal records.

law-abiding folks pack heat and expect trouble around every corner. Because they sure are going to find it sooner or later, and probably be the cause of it. That is easily proved to be false. There are about ten million people with CCWs in the nation. We have a little under 10,000 gun murders. It would take 1,000 years to reach ten million murders. Almost all murderers, with the exception of rampage killers, already have criminal records. Here are some statistics for you: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/rsd/chl/reports/convrates.htm
Texas keeps records of all CHLers who commit murder or manslaughter. In 2011 there were 525,000+ CHLs and only 6 were convicted of murder/manslaughter. In the same year there were over 600 convictions for manslaughter/murder. Here is a chart that compares the CHL conviction rate to the general population for all violent crimes, even those that don't involve a gun. It is proof that we are far safer than the average person on the street.



BTW - Virtually every rampage killing that I can think of was done in a "gun free" zone. Rampage killers like places where they can find unarmed victims who can't fight back.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #25)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:33 AM

32. Yeah but yahoos walking around with guns in public is becoming too common with help

of gun promoters.

Another few million George Zimmermans - or gun toters like one who settled argument in a Chuck E Cheese - on streets are not in our best interests.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:15 AM

38. Like Reeva Steenkamp?

Real impressed by that vapid boilerplate argument.

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Response to aquart (Reply #38)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:18 PM

59. That happened in a foreign country, under their laws, not relevant to the U.S.

He also beat her in the head with a cricket bat, so she would have been dead even if he had not had a gun.

South African gun laws are much stricter than ours and he still had both a machine gun and a pistol. http://world.time.com/2013/02/15/oscar-pistorius-shooting-how-strict-are-south-africas-gun-laws/

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:15 PM

16. This proves that Utah does not have many Christians

Real Christians are not so afraid that they must have a gun everywhere they go.

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Response to nakocal (Reply #16)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:30 AM

26. Some of Jesus' disciples carried swords with them.

Peter did.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:17 AM

39. How many do you figure he could have killed with that sword?

In, say, ten minutes?

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:24 PM

18. Would you consider

a vacation in Vermont?

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:32 AM

27. what is there to do in Utah anyway?

 

never really had a desire to go there except to include it in our 50 state tour

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Response to sad-cafe (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:46 AM

33. hoard food, wear magic panties

and now tote a gun like a paranoid lunatic.

I think that about covers Utah activities.

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Response to sad-cafe (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:50 AM

34. Some of the best scenery in the world. Zion Canyon, Bryce Canyon,

North rim of the Grand Canyon, Capitol Reef, Arches, Canyonlands, Monument Valley, all in Southern Utah. It's a photographers paradise. No big cities.

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Response to sad-cafe (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:20 AM

40. Skiing, mountain biking, ...

The topology of the Vermilion Cliffs and the Pink Cliffs is what I like to see. Bryce Canyon and Zion Canyon are amazing.

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:37 AM

28. I think the more rural a state is, the more concealed carry makes sense.

 

Especially states like Alaska or Montana, for instance - if you're out in the wilderness, 911 will take a very long time to get to you, whether you're being attacked by a bear or a criminal.

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Response to OceanEcosystem (Reply #28)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:01 AM

35. Utah is not rural...

It's ranked as the 8th most urbanized state in the union. Roughly 90% of the state's population lives in an urban center - with almost all that being the Wasatch Front. We have rural areas, most certainly, but we're definitely not Montana or Alaska.

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:38 AM

29. Isn't that how Vermont is too?

Will you also cancel your vacations to there?

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 08:25 AM

47. That attitude will keep you out of 38 states

States that Allow Open Carrying of Handguns on the Person or In a Vehicle No Permit or License Required

On the Person:
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
California (If unloaded)11
Colorado
Delaware
Georgia12
Idaho
Kansas
Kentucky
Louisiana
Maine
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nebraska
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Mexico
North Carolina
North Dakota (If unloaded, and only during the day)13
Ohio
Oklahoma14
Oregon
Pennsylvania15
South Dakota
Utah (If unloaded).16
Vermont
Virginia (Open carrying of certain loaded handguns is prohibited in select cities)17
Washington
West Virginia
Wisconsin
Wyoming


http://smartgunlaws.org/open-carrying-policy-summary/

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:59 AM

56. I don't trust strangers to act responsibly, period.

When I drive, and I come to an intersection, if I see a car coming on the cross street, with their turn signal on such that I could go, I don't just immediately GO. I wait and make sure that the person is actually going to turn.

When I come to an intersection where I have the right of way, and the cross street has stop signs, I do not assume that the car approaching the stop sign will actually stop.

I've avoided numerous accidents by simply not trusting other drivers to act responsibly.

I don't trust strangers with guns. Unless they are a law enforcement professional, dressed as such, I don't trust them. I simply have no idea what level of training they have, if any. For all I know, the person has anger management issues, or is just a show off, or clumsy, or forgot to make sure there is no bullet in the chamber.

I won't spend any time around a person with a gun unless I know them very very well.

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:30 PM

58. Exactly, better to go somewhere safe like Chicago, DC or Detroit

where you won't have to worry about some rethug with a metal penis.

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Response to Union Label (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:30 PM

61. I can just see "stand your ground" defense in fender benders...

 

Yet another reason not to go to the cesspool that is Utah

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