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Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:25 PM

A man in PA shoots 2 family dogs who wander onto his sheep farm

I hope, if any good can come from this, it will highlight the psycho gun-worshiper-nuts and how insane they, and the gun laws are, and common sense laws will prevail.

Chester County Man Kills Neighbors’ Dogs For Chasing His Sheep
February 21, 2013 9:44 AM

By Diana Rocco, Jim Melwert

CHESTER SPRINGS, Pa. (CBS) — A Chester County family is mourning the loss of their two dogs, both shot and killed by a neighbor. But, under a Pennsylvania law, that neighbor won’t face charges.

Two-year-old Argus and one-year-old Fiona were Bernese Mountain dogs, a breed similar to Saint Bernards, and natural herding animals.

But when the pair escaped from their Chester Springs yard last week, a neighbor found them chasing his sheep, and shot the two dogs in the head.

(more at link...)




http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/02/21/chester-county-man-kills-neighbors-dogs-for-chasing-his-sheep/

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Reply A man in PA shoots 2 family dogs who wander onto his sheep farm (Original post)
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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:33 PM

1. Anyone that lets their pet go free-range should not expect to keep it long.

That may be a harsh thing to say but it is true.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:36 PM

4. Dogs get out by accident

and they were obviously his neighbor's dogs. Obviously family pets . . . is this really justified? Necessary?

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:55 PM

29. Yes, justified. Yes, necessary.

Why should someone have to accept a real threat to their livelihood because their neighbor is irresponsible.

Americans have gone totally insane about the value of their pets. But, if you value them, you damn well better keep them at home.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #29)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:07 PM

35. No

What's insane is that this yahoo knew these dogs belonged to his neighbor and he chose to corner one and pump a bullet into it's head. I think he got off on it, actually. Dogs get out accidentally, so it's okay to shoot them??? They were chasing the sheep, they're herding dogs. This psycho wanted to use that gun.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #29)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:08 PM

36. What part of they escaped don't you get?

Did this happen often? NO! It happened one phucking time...and the scum farmer over-reacted...so phuck your hate of pets.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #36)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:11 PM

44. Interesting that you draw the conclusion that this was a ONE time occurance...

Do you know something we don't, because the article did not mention this.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #44)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:12 PM

47. Interesting that you think this was a continual problem..

If it had been, that would have been more likely to be in the story. the farmer was wrong...end of discussion.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #44)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:30 PM

78. An article mentioned in the story refers to this being a one-time occurrence.

That article has more detail.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #44)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:00 PM

96. I love my lab, but I also know that no ones dog should chase my livestock

And the farmer was totally within his rights to shoot animals that were harrassing his livestock. I adore my lab, but it is MY responsibility to make sure he is on MY property.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #96)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:04 PM

98. the farmer is inhumane fucking scum

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Response to frylock (Reply #98)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:10 PM

105. Do you live in the country? Do you have livestock? Dogs chasing sheep can cause them to abort.

Farmers livelihoods depend on their livestock. I love dogs, but I understand that it is the owners responsibility to keep their animal from harrassing the farmers livestock.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #105)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:30 PM

122. This didn't take place inthe "country."

It took place in a housing development. He shot 2 neighborhood dogs, possibly within 450 feet of other residences, which is against the law in PA.

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Response to yewberry (Reply #122)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:41 PM

129. Sorry, but the law protects livestock from harrassment by dogs. And that is a good thing.

I love dogs, BUT my dog has no business chasing someone elses livestock. Dogs can chase animals for "fun", but to the animals being chased it can cause heart attack, abortion, or just damage from running into the barbed wire fence.....

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Response to peacebird (Reply #129)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:59 PM

140. This may or may not have been legal. Shooting up a neighborhood is generally frowned upon, though.

I'm not arguing that this is, by definition, wrong; I'm arguing that that's not, by definition, right.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #129)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:23 PM

308. I have four dogs, two are australian cattle dogs, natural herders

There's a big difference between two Maltese getting out of the yard and running around someone's yard and two medium to large (in the case of Bernese Mountain Dogs) herding dogs getting loose and chasing livestock. I've seen Cattle Dogs working sheep that scared me, they were so rough. They can be quite rough on livestock. I can understand how a farmer would shoot a dog that appeared to be attacking his sheep.

I live in the country. I have seen packs of dogs roaming and one pack attacked a small male stray that we ended up rescuing and rehoming. I've also know of at least one case of a pack of dogs running a horse into the ground. The old farmer who lives behind me keeps a pistol on his tractor because he's been threatened by packs of dogs a couple times in the past. He's never actually shot a dog, but I can see how he might.

I love my dogs and if someone shot one of my dogs I'd be devastated. I had a guy shoot at one of my dogs who got out of the fenced yard one night and I thought we'd lost her. I was panicked and bent over double in the middle of the road when she came running up to me. We do everything we can to protect them and to keep them in the yard but stuff happens.

But if someone shot one of my dogs for what appeared to be an attack on his livestock there would be nothing I could do. It's understandable and the guy is within his rights to protect his livestock.

That being said, I'm going to walk the fence line this weekend and make sure we're secure.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #105)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:36 PM

162. Please look at the pics of those dogs. He didn't have to shoot them.

And if someone just up and shot my little dogs, their face would get to say hello to a fucking ballbat. Period. I would understand if the dogs were rabid and dangerous looking. But these ones were not. Animal control exists for this sort of thing.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #105)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:23 PM

338. I grew up on a farm. Shotgun with pepper was used.

I don't know the technical details because I never got involved with guns myself. I think it was what would be called buckshot, laced with pepper. The idea was to inflict non-mortal pain on the dog so it would stay away in the future. It was a neighbor that did that and some people thought it was "awful" BUT it is better than killing the dogs.

I don't remember EVER hearing about anyone's dog being shot dead for being loose. I was a kid and may not have heard. But I think I would have.

Just commenting about my experience.

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Response to frylock (Reply #98)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:59 PM

313. you know him?

He probably treats his kids nice...

Refinished a tricycle for the toddler down the road...

Always helps out with donating free food around Xmas....



You should be nice life is to short to be hateful

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Response to peacebird (Reply #96)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:48 PM

132. Yes he was

I have friends that had 10 sheep killed or so badly injured they had to be put down. This was done by a neighbors 2 dogs.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #29)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:03 PM

97. what threat was posed by fucking herd dogs?!

they weren't fucking wolves. people like you scare the fucking shit out of me.

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Response to frylock (Reply #97)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:28 PM

120. so they weren't wolves,

as if sheep wouldn't be frightened beyond what little wit they have.

how much of your salary will you sacrifice for a neighbor's pet?
seriously, what percentage of your annual income will you give for your neighbor's negligence?

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Response to loves_dulcinea (Reply #120)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:46 PM

131. So profit is more important than a family member?

The dogs should have been shot dead so the sheep didn't abort? That's some twisted logic a Teatard would come up with.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #131)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:53 PM

137. No. It is a family livelihood as opposed to a family pet.

Farmers need to protect their livestock in order to support their families.

Families that value their pets should make sure their pets are not harrassing livestock.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #137)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:06 PM

144. Right, I get that. I grew up on a farm. But he shot them both in the head.

Which probably means they weren't "chasing" anything and this dick just wanted to use his gun. Besides, if you know anything about the breed you'd know how sweet and obedient they are. They weren't going to kill anything. It would have been easy to bring them to heel and get them back to their family.

Irrespective of any of that, I still say a family member comes before profit.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #144)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:13 PM

149. Having been "treed" by so called "friendly family" dogs who changed personality when in a pack

of three, I think we may have to agree to disagree here.

Not only have I personally been attacked, my livestock have been attacked and slaughtered "for fun" by a pack of family dogs.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #149)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:53 PM

170. Must have been frightening, I'm sure. But here's the thing...

Last edited Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:36 PM - Edit history (1)

This isnt the same situation by any stretch, at least not from what I've now read. The guy isn't a "farmer" he keeps sheep as lawn mowers. He has his "farm" on 2 acres, when local law doesn't allow you to farm on less than 10; the police are clearly disturbed at how the dogs were killed, one was shot while he was looking at the "farmer" then shot the younger one when she was cowering against a fence. And guess what? This guy has done this before! Lastly, he called another neighbor to brag about it, and the neigbor turned the tape over to the police.

So while you may be a farmer, this dick isnt. He killed those dogs because he's a piece of shit.

http://chestercountyramblings.wordpress.com/

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #170)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:01 PM

201. Yup

These trigger-happy dicks will keep the gun issue front and center and passion high to pressure Congress. It's these trigger-happy gun nuts prove we need to change the laws to protect the populace.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #170)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:21 PM

212. Thank you for clarifying things.

Your post brought much clearer perspective.

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Response to Adsos Letter (Reply #212)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:39 PM

224. You're welcome!

I needed to dig deeper because something about this story didn't make sense. The digger I deep, the worse it gets. And get this...the so-called farmer admitted he didn't even try and yell at the dogs to get off his property, just shot them. "shoot first, ask questions later" is what he said. Yes, he's that much of a dick.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #224)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:50 PM

228. Likely emboldened by the gun nut apologist culture that's lost it's mind

and creating fear in woodchucks like him.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #224)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:52 PM

230. I did exactly what you did (if I can be so bold as to assume)

After reading your post I went and actually read the story linked to in the OP, then followed that to further articles and news video (something we would all be better off doing in the case of emotionally charged issues).

According to the facebook page established for the support of the family, the mother stated that Pilotti may have let the dogs into the sheep pen in order to justify killing them, and that authorities are not discounting it.

Now, there is one interview in one of the news videos in which the guy's roommate can be heard saying that they had "five sheep and a llama" killed recently (I assume by some type of canine, but I'm only assuming). Still, everything I've read or listened to about this guy suggests that he is nothing more than an ornery old ass who took pleasure in killing these dogs.

Edit for punctuation....

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Response to Adsos Letter (Reply #230)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:01 AM

234. Sick, isn't it.

I can't believe people...especially people HERE...would just spout off about a case they don't know SHIT about. Isnt that what RWNJs do, jump to conclusions without checking out the facts? And even after people have linked to stories etc people still keep saying "it was the dog owners fault" (look down thread, there have probably been 5 more since you and I typed our messages) without looking at the facts. I would hate to have any of them on a jury, that's for damned sure.

Tonight has pissed me off enough that I don't want to come here anymore.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #234)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:04 AM

235. Some, many, people hate to admit they're wrong

They would rather defend the indefensible. It does indeed remind me of Wingnuts. I thought we Dems went by facts.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #234)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:06 AM

237. Yeah, the facts need to be weighed in context.

Just for the record: I grew up with guns, learned to handle them safely, hunted, and i still own a couple, although I no longer hunt. And I understand farmers/ranchers and their right to protect their animals, and I support that.

That just doesn't quite seem to be all there is to it in this case.

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Response to Adsos Letter (Reply #237)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:13 AM

243. Same here

Although a few accidental shootings of local kids growing up scared me off guns for life. I come from a big sporting family, and grew up on a farm (horses mainly--trotters). But every time Ive known a neighbor to have to shoot a dog for scaring their animals, they did so after numerous encounters with the dog and their owners. Then the farmers were scarred over it. I understand how truly irresponsible dog owners are a liability. But someone even defended this "farmer" because he's afraid of big dogs? Seriously? Grow up!

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Response to Adsos Letter (Reply #230)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:18 PM

295. I Wondered Myself

how these big dogs got into a sheep pen.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #170)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:08 AM

239. nice work!

this asshole is no farmer.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #170)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:15 PM

294. Nobody on Chester Springs

Last edited Fri Feb 22, 2013, 03:07 PM - Edit history (1)

makes their livelihood sheep farming, thanks for posting this. Not to mention the fact - Bernese Mountain dogs? No one could confuse them with some vicious breed.

For those who want to exercise their "right" to shoot anything on their property, ever hear of human kindness? Grace? And yes, I live in the country. People's animals cross bounderies, it happens. Thankfully, in my area everybody doesn't just shoot everything that isn't obeying the law.

How ugly some of these posts are.

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Response to RobinA (Reply #294)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:35 PM

311. "vicious Bernese Mountain Dogs"...said no person ever.

And I agree on all other points.

Regarding the ugly posts, i have to tell you how disappointed I am. I was a many year lurker and only joined last year. I always admired the respect people had for each other, even when they disagreed. Guess that's over with.

But the WORST part? The fact that numerous people on DU have the opinion that if an animal was interfering in their livelihood, it was a-okay to shoot a dog. The whole "money trumps all" attitude caught me square in the jaw. I am an independent business woman, come from a long line of entrepreneurs and I know the value of hard work, but NO WAY would I put my profits ahead of a life. And this whole piss and moan "that's bread on their table" bullshit is just that. Even taking that piece of propaganda at its face, I'd let my family miss a meal if it meant avoiding the killing of a family member.

Human kindness seems to be a rarity these days. Alas, there seems to be no shortage of gun-fuckery though.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #170)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:29 PM

339. Thank you very much for including the context.

Also, growing up on a farm, I wondered first about whether he had a well maintained fence. I guess the dogs could get in anyway - dogs are good at that - but it really seems very unnecessary to have killed them. Even before reading the stuff you added.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #137)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:54 PM

302. What if my daughter in a fit of naughtiness was out chasing the livestock? Would you

have her shot as well?

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Response to loves_dulcinea (Reply #120)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:36 AM

285. the sheep were lawn mowers, not a business........

 

your whole argument is flawed. Go learn to read then talk.

loser.

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Response to kooljerk666 (Reply #285)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 03:04 PM

315. This Educational Video Was Developed for You



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Response to frylock (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:58 AM

261. herd dogs love to 'chase' livestock, untrained and no human direction..they are a threat.

But this farmer got close enogh to the pets to shoot them in the head, they were not a threat at that time. The dogs probably came up to him a *very friendly dog breed* and he shot them.

The farmer was an ass, he should have kept the dogs, called the law and made the neighbors pay any damages. Doesn't sound like the dogs caused any harm the farmer couldn't have worked out with his neighbor.

It is scarey that so many would shoot first and these knee-jerk shooters are, our neighbors.

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Response to frylock (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:48 AM

288. Herding is one of the ways wolves hunt animals.

That instinct is part of the reason herding dogs are herding dogs. They're trained to use those natural herding skills to benefit people, while wolves are not. Untrained herding breeds can be deadly to sheep. It happens a lot in sheep-raising areas, and sheep farmers routinely kill stray dogs that harass their sheep.

That doesn't mean that the family of these dogs isn't devastated by this. It just means that sheep farmers react badly when herding breeds that are not trained in safe herding start working their sheep. Dead sheep are often the result.

In this particular case, it appears that the person with the sheep isn't actually a sheep farmer, but someone who just has a couple of sheep. That clouds the issue considerably, and I think he should have behaved in a different way. For an actual sheep farmer, though, stray dogs are a constant worry.

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Response to frylock (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:37 PM

312. We spent a few hundred dollars on a stray that was attacked by a pack of dogs

I actually recognized some of the dogs, including a big black lab from down the road. Dogs change when they go into pack mentality. Dogs are not wolves, but they will do things that are outside their normal persona, including attacking animals and people, and chasing livestock.

I have two Australian Cattle Dogs. You're right, they are not wolves but I've seen both of them work sheep and they can be quite rough, to the point where blood was drawn. It can be quite scary and mine were under the supervision of a trainer. Herd drive is very strong and a dog, or pack of dogs, can literally run livestock into the ground if unsupervised.

I've had dogs for many years and four of them were herding dogs. They're quite intelligent but very strong, very hard headed, and very driven. As owners we have a responsibility to ensure that the livestock are not harmed. And a farmer has the right to protect his livestock, just like we, as dog owners, have the right to protect our pets.

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Response to auburngrad82 (Reply #312)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:41 PM

332. Excellent post. A must-read for everyone on this thread!

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #29)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:23 PM

115. Bernese Mountain Dogs pose a threat to noone.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #115)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:00 PM

291. except mayors in a tree

LOL, a good friend of mine had a Bernese Mountain Dog, a big mushball whose biggest fault was covering you with slobber licking you if you got too close to him. One night we had a local political meeting at our friend's house and the Mayor took a shortcut through the back yard to the house, saw the dog (which he'd never seen before) and climbed a tree trying to get away from him. He was yelling "help" and we laughed all night.

On another note though, a few times the dog got out and due to his tremendous size scared the bejeebus out of the local school down the block to the extent that they had a "lockdown" while cops looked for him. So a cop car pulls up next to him, the cop opens the door and the dog jumped right into the car, all the time covering the cop with licks, cop laughing, so funny. These dogs are terrific around people but I can see where their size would intimidate those not familiar with them.

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Response to Jersey Devil (Reply #291)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:02 PM

336. nice.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #29)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:41 PM

165. here's why: fuck their livelihood.

 

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #29)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:47 AM

277. My pets = my children.

Americans have gone totally insane about the value of their pets. But, if you value them, you damn well better keep them at home.

Animals give you unconditional love. I certainly like them better then some people! What gives you the right to judge people?
Funny I bet you wouldn't say this about someones kids would you?


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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #4)


Response to slackmaster (Reply #55)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:18 PM

62. Or when a kid leaves a door ajar in the home

That's not negligence, that's life. Mistakes happen, that's why extreme laws don't always cut it.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #55)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:04 PM

99. what a shock you would take such a stance

fucking authoritarians.

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Response to frylock (Reply #99)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:01 PM

303. NO kidding.

Thou shalt not make a mistake or your dog will be shot on sight.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #55)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:40 PM

128. Dogs occassionally get loose from responsible owners. That doesn't mean they should be shot.

I live in rural PA, I have had chickens, and pigs and do have ducks and geese. I have also found dogs running loose on my property. I put them in my fenced in dog yard and call neighbors until I can locate their owner. My neighbors have done the same when one of mine got loose.

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Response to appleannie1 (Reply #128)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:18 AM

263. I can speak from authority here

I AM a responsible owner and my beloved Buddy Guy got out the front door once...only once...while I was answering the door.5 seconds later he was dead.

Shooting those dogs was an asshole thing to do in the extreme.Burmese are almost identical in nature to my Bernard baby.They wouldn't hurt a flea.

The guy...I refuse to call someone using sheep as lawnmowers a farmer...needs to lose the right to own a gun FOREVER and spend some time in jail too.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #55)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:09 PM

146. or when a FUCKING BRANCH FALLS AND BREAKS A FENCE

The dogs were properly secured by responsible owners. Not negligence. Deal with it.

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Response to 0rganism (Reply #146)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:19 PM

153. U mad?

 

You sound mad.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #153)


Response to slackmaster (Reply #153)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:15 AM

245. U wrong?

It appears U R

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #55)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:07 PM

292. Nonsense, it's not always negligencew

I have a 5 year old Wheaten Terrier and a completely fenced in yard. Last summer, for the first time ever, the dog began digging holes under the fence. It took me at least a few weeks to figure out how to stop him (I stapled chicken wire to the bottom of the wood fence all around that extended a foot onto the lawn where the grass eventually covered over it). Before that he had gotten out twice when I forgot to shut the gate after mowing the lawn and I caught up to him a few blocks away. I suppose that is what you would call "negligence", but should my dog have been shot for it?

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Response to Jersey Devil (Reply #292)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:12 PM

293. "I forgot to shut the gate" = negligence

 

So is not noticing that your dog is digging holes under the fence.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:28 PM

76. If it were the first time, it it would not be justified.........

If this was the sort of thing that happens repeatedly then.....
The farmer is trying to make a living. If his live stock were threatened AND he had made the neighbors know that it was a problem AND the neighbors didn't take action to prevent it then he was just protecting his critters.
Yes, I know a lot of ands, ifs and butts, still pets are pets and wild dogs are wild dogs.

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Response to wandy (Reply #76)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:05 PM

100. it was a one-time event..

that has been established.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:18 PM

152. Dogs kill sheep, that is a fact and I am sure he told the owners

that he could not have them running his sheep. This was the dog owners fault

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Response to larkrake (Reply #152)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:22 AM

249. You are sure are you?

Conjecture much?

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Response to larkrake (Reply #152)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:38 PM

297. I'll second that. I've seen it done.

In our case it was goats,but much the same. Neighbors' dogs on the loose, mauling the goats, many expensive trips to the vet to patch the poor goats up, many warnings to the neighbors, eventually dead goats. Several over a short period. Then dead dogs, much regretted, but someone else's property, which they refused to properly police, were killing our property ON our property. It can only be borne so long.

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Response to montanto (Reply #297)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:32 PM

330. I know of a case in which a miniature horse was killed by roaming "family dogs"

I don't really understand why someone would deny that these dogs *might* have posed a threat to the sheep since they were loose and were already chasing the sheep. Anyone who knows about livestock would understand that the sheep were utterly terrified, and the owner has a technical right to protect his livestock from roaming animals.

I don't remember the breed of the dogs in the miniature horse case. The pair were also family pets that had gotten out of their house and were roaming the local area and killed a miniature horse that was out in a small, fenced-in field (the horse happened to belong to a child). The dogs also killed a neighborhood cat in the process.

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Response to alphafemale (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:41 AM

287. you did not read article..........

 

or need to follow up w/ a neurologist (senility or TBI, please check it out.

Dog were not free range. This area has lots of traffic & any dog running lose would be run over quick.

I have not seen a dog loose near here in 10-15 years (I live down the street from this guy).

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:34 PM

2. Congratulations on your failure....

The dogs where chasing his sheep! He was in the right.

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Response to whistler162 (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:38 PM

8. No, they were his neighbor's family pets

not strays. You really think it's okay to just pump a bullet into their heads? That's insane and very extreme way to look at it.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:58 PM

31. A dog is a pet. The sheep were the neighbors' life and dinner on the table.

I cannot even fathom why anyone would consider that act unjustified.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #31)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:09 PM

39. Maybe they can because they're not assholes

If this was a continual problem, it would have been justified...it was not in any phucking way justiifed...suck on that.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #39)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:53 PM

90. It's not okay for someone's dogs to endanger a neighbor's sheep even the 1st time it happened

Your dogs endanger my livestock and I can't get them to stop… I have every right to shoot them.

J

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #90)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:06 PM

101. how were the sheep endangered?

how does this guy herd his sheep?

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Response to frylock (Reply #101)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:17 PM

111. Sheep know the dogs that herd them, these were dogs chasing and harrassing them....

You clearly know NOTHING of rural life.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #111)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:19 PM

112. naw, i'm just some dumb fuck city slicker..

I come from farm people from NoDak, but I do appreciate the condescension. truly.

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Response to frylock (Reply #112)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:24 PM

117. I'm a former city slicker, but I understand and appreciate the "rules" of country life

If my dog chased a neighbors livestock, I would understand if he were killed. I have had neighbors who did not control their dogs and those dogs killed some of our livestock.

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Response to peacebird (Reply #117)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:07 AM

238. you may want to read further the details of this story..

this fucker EXECUTED these dogs. fucking executed them. I hope to hell the authorities get to the bottom of this and that this shitlump sees the inside of a jail. then maybe he'll have a real understanding of fear.

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Response to frylock (Reply #112)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 03:09 PM

316. REALLY! can you sing too? Nodaka

Righteous!



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Response to peacebird (Reply #111)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:40 PM

331. Sheep and goats are killed by wandering dogs in rural areas

It happens (and not infrequently) -- this is one of the reasons so many farmers have these weapons in the first place, to protect their livestock from wild animals (coyote or wolves etc.) and dogs that are on the loose and in packs. You may think this man did not behave properly in this case but to pretend that this never happens is just not true.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #31)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:13 PM

50. Well, there are those of us who don't get our kicks from murdering animals

But I understand that you can in no way fathom such a thing.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #50)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:54 PM

91. There are a lot of DU'ers who only get their food from grocery stores and have never lived

in a rural area.

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Response to KittyWampus (Reply #91)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:26 PM

119. What? I suppose you are a subsistence farmer?

Give me a break

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #119)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:12 AM

241. the condescension in this thread would be laughable if not for the nature of the OP

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:10 AM

240. nonsense..

this guy was NOT a farmer. this was NOT his livelihood.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:45 PM

289. Sheep in my state are a past time and not a livelihood. Cows are the livelihood in this state.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #31)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:35 PM

340. Er, um, you may want to check further into the context of this incident,

as posted elsewhere in this thread.

The guy didn't need to kill the dogs, and the sheep aren't his "life and dinner", and apparently aren't legal. (Although I wonder, if that is true, why he doesn't get shut down and possibly sued. This is the second incident of this nature.)

Under some circumstances you would be correct. This one does not seem to rise to that level.

And, as a kid growing up on a farm, I don't recall people finding they had to kill stray dogs to protect their property. There were plenty of "issues" with it but I don't recall ever that family pets ended up being killed. And in those days in that place, most dogs did run loose.

So, don't just think it's automatically o.k. just because it might be in some case that you can imagine.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #31)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:43 PM

341. He has been charged, because "attack was not in progress"

Read the details here:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-02-23/news/37244142_1_older-dog-state-dog-law-sheep-owner

Context is a good thing.

Also, keep in mind that there is always potential lawsuit, or just good neighbor behavior that if the dogs harmed the sheep, the dog owner should have paid restitution - and most people actually will do that. He could have "shot" them with a camera for evidence for the lawsuit if he thought that was going to be needed.

Even if it was a case where shooting might have been "justified", it wouldn't necessarily be the RIGHT thing to do, and the guy could still be an asshole for doing it. In this case it wasn't even justified or legal, it appears, so that would make the guy unquestionably an asshole.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #8)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:14 PM

52. It's not insane. It just doesn't conform to urban and suburban sensibilities.

Chasing cattle is a serious problem. So much so that not only does the farmer have the legal right to shoot the dogs, but he also has the right to have the state shoot the dogs.

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Response to JVS (Reply #52)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:06 PM

102. Bingo! I live in the country and have a lab that I adore, but I know that it is my job to make sure

My lab remains on my property, and IF he were chasing/harrassing a neighbors livestock then he could be (justifiably) shot.

I feel the same about dogs who come on my property and harrass my livestock. If I can chase them off, I will. If not, then I would have to place my critters lives above the aggressor.

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Response to JVS (Reply #52)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:14 PM

108. Yep...

city folks don't realize that livestock are money. I bet they like their lamb chops, though.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #108)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:16 PM

181. Indeed

I live out here in cattle country and the ranchers are always bitching about wolves and coyotes but the reality is that more livestock are killed and damaged by dogs, feral AND pets in this country on an annual basis than by wolves and other wildlife. It happens rather often out here and if the livestock producer has found dogs, of any breed or belonging to anyone (including his own) on his property running his livestock, in most places the producer has the right to kill the offending animals... period.

It is unproductive to denigrate someone's personality because something happened that you don't like. Regardless of who was at fault, the situation was handled legally. This was probably not a gun nut story though it appears that some people think any use of a gun is a gun nut story, I don't get that part. I don't see where this use equates to someone salivating over a chance to use their gun. And if you are going to kill something, best do it quickly to avoid suffering, as it appears this sheep rancher did... he probably wasn't happy about it but felt it was necessary. Try to take a few steps in his shoes maybe. Dogs that go about running livestock are likely to repeat the activity.

Life isn't a Bambi movie and those who are all upset at this need to get a grip and save that energy for something more important, like getting on your congressperson's shit about this stupid sequester nonsense.

So the family lost their dogs because their dogs were in the wrong place at the wrong time doing something unacceptable the family has now learned, the hard way, that they made a mistake. The livestock producer maybe could have gone about it differently but he didn't and he acted within his rights. I don't condone the actions of the producer but it happened and getting all fired up about this when it happens more often than you might imagine is a shameful waste of your energy.

My word, people.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #181)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:48 PM

191. The modern city dweller...

has a serious disconnect as to where their food comes from. The only thing most notice is the price changes but have no idea what factors can cause the change.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #191)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:59 PM

198. Well

I wouldn't go so far as to categorize all city dwelling folks that way but I am certain that few appear to know much about raising livestock and what dangers are present or what is legal in protecting them. I'm not real thrilled about stuff like this but it seems some of the folks on this thread are way out there in emotional la-la-land about this. Yes it was an awful event for all parties involved but assuming someone's character from a news article is getting a little off the leash.

Out here in cattle country, where there are as many sheep as cows, people can be shot on sight if they are inside a fence on your property if they have so much as a rope in hand. Predators, pets or not, are no exception when running livestock... even real good dogs are sometimes guilty, and some of them get shot. there was a sheep rancher out in Wyoming recently who lost a large number of sheep in one night, on his property, by a pack of "pet" dogs who got to roam free at night.

It's to bad this happened, and it's also too bad some people get all riled up about it and jump on the character assassination wagon without much thought about the facts. Not sure who's worse, the guy that shot the dogs or the ranting posters.

That's all I have to say about it.

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Response to whistler162 (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:39 PM

10. Can I kill his sheep is they get out and wander on my property? n-t

Last edited Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:14 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to Logical (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:59 PM

32. You chose "Logical" as your nick?

Intentional irony? Unintentional?

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #32)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:09 PM

40. Serious question. Answer it. n-t

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Response to Logical (Reply #40)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:13 PM

107. dogs are predators

sheep aren't, although they can cause damage to property if they get loose... dogs are pets, sheep are agricultural livestock and most often a person's livelihood... no easy answers to your question but overall the threat from dogs is much more common and dire than that of sheep being loose.

In the past I have lost sheep (and chickens) to neighbor's dogs and if I had been a gun owner I would have shot the dogs without hesitation. I have seen domestic dogs kill, chase both domestic and wild animals until the chased animal dies, I have been bitten by domestic dogs as have my kids, who are runners (chased and bitten when running on the road).

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Response to handmade34 (Reply #107)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:25 AM

251. Don't be so sure

I seem to recall a documentary, lemme see if I can find it.....








http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0779982/


An experiment in genetic engineering turns harmless sheep into blood-thirsty killers that terrorize a sprawling New Zealand farm.





Ok, maybe it wasn't exactly a documentary.







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Response to handmade34 (Reply #107)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:07 PM

305. What if the sheep

wander into your delicate organic lettuce crop that is your livelihood and start eating and trampling it? I suppose you would be obligated to shoot them all to protect your livelihood according to this logic.

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Response to laundry_queen (Reply #305)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 03:39 PM

320. quite possibly

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:49 PM

290. Sheep can get loose. I have found a pair of horses in my yard and once I found a goat. Fencing

for livestock is usually not as sturdy as for a small dog enclosure because it would be too expensive.

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Response to Logical (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:30 PM

77. If you can prove that they are a hazard to you or your property, yes.

If your neighbors sheep escaped, entered your property, and began consuming the flowers on your daffodil farm, you could legally shoot them to protect your crop.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #77)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:34 PM

80. If they broke my fence I guess I could shoot them. n-t

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Response to Logical (Reply #80)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:40 PM

82. Nope.

Once your fence is broken, the damage is done. You can't demonstrate that the sheep are an ongoing threat.

If the sheep wander over and start munching on your daffodil crop, they are continuing to do damage. Legally, in that situation, you could shoot them.

Basically, you have to be able to prove that you're protecting something.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #82)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:42 PM

83. LOL, you realize if they broke my fence getting IN they could break another place getting out?? n-t

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Response to Logical (Reply #83)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:47 PM

88. I guess you could make that argument to the sheriff.

I wouldn't expect it to get you very far though. It wouldn't serve as much of a defense when the owner took you to court either.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #88)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:54 PM

92. Really, the animal he let escape broke my fence and was going to break more stuff....

and I killed it to stop the damage and you think I would lose the lawsuit? What was I supposed to do? Let it just tear stuff up? Break all my fence?

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Response to Logical (Reply #92)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:07 PM

103. Theoretical vs. real danger.

As I said downthread, I've had to shoot dogs before. It was legal because they were actively trying to maim my horses. There was an active attack that had to be stopped. If your neighbors sheep wander onto your property and start eating your daffodil crop, the same situation exists.

On the other hand, if some dogs just wandered into my pasture and were sitting around not doing much of anything, it would AT LEAST be a civil offense, and probably a criminal one, to shoot them. I could make the argument that they "could have" attacked my horses, but if they weren't doing so, the shooting would probably not be considered "justified". You can shoot dogs that are chasing livestock, but you can't just shoot random dogs that happen to be on your property. The standard, even on agricultural land, usually requires the shooter to demonstrate an active danger to crops or livestock, and not just a theoretical one.

You can't shoot the sheep just for being there, even if they "may become" a threat.

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Response to Logical (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:33 PM

124. If his sheep are damaging your crops,

you are within your right.

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Response to loves_dulcinea (Reply #124)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:36 PM

125. Interesting. Makes sense I guess. Thanks! n-t

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Response to whistler162 (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:52 PM

136. And if the sheep get out and shit in my yard?

Welcome to ignore. Have a nice life.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:34 PM

3. Piece of shit

The dogs owners should now be able to shot this man on sight. It seems only an eye for an eye is going to make this idiots think twice before they do something morally and legally wrong.

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Response to Drale (Reply #3)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:01 PM

33. Nice - is 1 person worth 1 dog, or 2? Fucking gun owners say shit like this. Sorry - humans

get a little special ranking compared to animals. Even family pets.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #33)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:10 PM

41. Nice animal hating logic...

If this were a continual problem, you'd have a point, but you don't...the dogs escaped, the fucking farmer shot them because they did it ONCE.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #41)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:18 PM

60. I know I know - I get it, so feel free to just shoot the guy!

And I thought gun owners could be sick fucks.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #60)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:19 PM

65. Yeah, we're talking about shooting him..way to bring that in

Again, try some logic...it might be your friend.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #65)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:20 PM

69. Oh I'm sorry - did you miss this? "The dogs owners should now be able to shot this man on sight."

Cause THAT is what I was referring to. How about you?

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #69)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:21 PM

70. DId I post that? Sorry, I guess I did becauswe I use

different DU names.

DID YOU MISS THAT?

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #70)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:25 PM

74. Of course I know you didn't say that. But your response was to my response

where I took issue with 'shooting a guy on sight' because he killed 2 dogs.
So, you see - that is what "we're talking about".

Sorry - not a good trade, even if I did hate animals, or even dogs (which I don't).

We the people have decided along time ago humans get a little extra consideration when being shot is concerned.



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Response to jmg257 (Reply #33)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:14 PM

53. I think 1 dog is worth more than 1 gun nut n/t

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #53)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:18 PM

64. I'm sure you do. So just take 'em out and we'll need less gun control.

Nice.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #64)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:33 AM

284. Fargo style would be nice............./NT

 

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:37 PM

5. Cattlemen will shoot your dogs to.

I lived in open range country for about 10 years and was always warned that my dogs would be shot if they bothered the cattle on the cattleman's land. They claim that life is so dangerous they have to shoot coyotes who eat their free range chickens. They've killed all the bears but a few. The shoot bobcats and wild pigs.
They just have to shoot things. I lived there as long as I did without shooting anything and not locking my doors at night.
It is a mentality that they are brought up with that gives them the gotta shoot things paradigm.
On edit: no you don't have to shoot someone's dogs. You go talk to them like the cattlemen did to me.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:42 PM

14. Well, this a small farm in PA

where homes and land are much closer together and that attitude won't fly here. People are enraged and will demand the laws to be more common sense to protect us from the gun yahoos.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #5)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:08 PM

104. yep. some people are just itching for an excuse to kill something..

anything.

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Response to frylock (Reply #104)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:50 PM

229. Huh

"yep. some people are just itching for an excuse to kill something.." or someone.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022410618#post3

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:38 PM

6. He could have handled things differently

but he chose to be an asshole, and unfortunately it looks like the law is on his side. Why didn't the guy just call the owners of the dogs and demand they keep them off his property?

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:38 PM

9. That would require logic

I'm thinking the farmer isn't too logical.

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Response to mokawanis (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:25 PM

155. When two large dogs are chasing your animals - LONG & PROFANE

Excuse the profanity - this really PISSES me off. It only takes a few minutes for a dog to take down a sheep, goat, or foal. Dogs should not be allowed to run loose. One of my dogs once killed one of our goats. It took us longer to get the dog to let loose of the dead goat than it took the dog to kill it. That dog got re-homed to a place with no livestock and no children. My other choice was to shoot it then and there.

When dogs are chasing your animals, you don't have TIME to call the asshole owners who didn't keep them fastened up, if you even know who the hell owns them.

I've been in that situation, with dogs that were allowed to roam free chasing my mares and foals. I couldn't go out and try to catch the damned dogs because of my bad knees. I didn't know who owned the dogs - I'd never seen them before and don't know many of the neighbors around me. Oh, even if I'd been able to catch them, the dogs had no collars or tags.

Then the dogs came up to my house and attacked my husband's elderly cat who had been asleep in the sun on my front porch. I went out to yell at the dogs and they became people aggressive, running at me with their hackles raised and fangs bared. I managed to grab a hoe and beat the shit out of the lead dog hard enough he gave up the attack on me and the cat and left with his buddy. I had no time to take my gun out of the safe, retrieve the bullets from where they are hidden, load the gun and try to shoot the dogs. The cat would have been torn to pieces by the time I did that.

Animal control was no help - they wouldn't even canvas the neighborhood to find out who owned the dogs. When I finally found out who the owners were, they disclaimed any possibility the dogs were theirs, said their dogs were boarded while they were out of town - and that even if the dogs had been home they NEVER got out of their yard. I told them the next time the dogs showed up and harassed my horses, my cat or me, I would shoot them. For the next few weeks, I violated my rules and kept my gun loaded and handy just in case.

The next time the dogs showed up, I called the owners. The owners came over, caught their dogs can took them home. Over the next two weeks the dogs showed up, or the owners showed up looking for their dogs at least a half dozen times. Yeah, their dogs NEVER got out before?! When the owners found out that I had given permission to everyone who has legal access to my property to shoot their aggressive dogs, the dogs stopped showing up.

Or it may have helped that another neighbor's dog showed up here and I tracked down the owners and called them. When they got here to collect their dog, the dog came running across the pasture, followed by my horses. It really looked as though the horses were chasing the dog, trying to kill it. I made no effort to disabuse them of this notion. I'm sure that neighbor let it be known that I had "killer" horses, and it was safer for the dog owners to keep their dogs OFF my property!

In the past I have had canine aggressive mares who would try to stomp a dog/fox/coyote when they had a foal at side. One of my own mares literally ran over me to try to kill our dog, who she normally didn't mind out in the pasture but she had a two day old foal. I've watched my mares try to run down a Rotweiller - after 10-15 minutes the dog ducked under the fence, thinking he was safe. But the colts had been watching their Moms chase the dog and decided it was a fun game and took it up. The dog was lucky to make it out alive - or maybe it didn't.

Not long after, "Lost Dog" posters showed up with pictures of that dog. My mares could have stomped it to death. I wouldn't give a shit - the dog was not supposed to be loose in my pastures. If the owner cared about their dog they would have kept it fastened up. I had warned her that my mares were dog aggressive and that I encouraged it. I'd rather my mares kill the dogs and/or coyotes than me have to get out and try to shoot the trespassing canines.

I expect to get flamed and I don't care. I keep my horses where they belong and I expect the dog owners to keep their dogs where they are supposed to be. But if someone else's dogs show up on my property chasing my horses or my cats, I have the right to shoot them, especially if the dogs turn on me when I intervene.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #155)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:01 PM

200. waller, tex. my friend lost 2 calves and several young show cattle shreaded ears to pet dog packs

This past 6 months alone! Usually about 3-4 strays start chasing the livestock a smaller dog that gets hyped up as the livestocks panics and starts running. Then the dogs start biting. They shread ears and even de-tail the cattle sometimes. No more show cattle with ruined ears and tails.

Cattle have been run into fencing and fence tore down in their panic to get away. One dead calf with a small dog and 2 labs hanging around it. no collars. an older cow, more a pet due to her age had so much wire fence damage she had to be shot to stop suffering.

They called animal control and were told it's the state law, they are allowed to shoot the dogs. Even then they in person visited,contacted every home within 2 miles of their place and noone said it was their dogs. They saw a lot of unfenced pets hanging around those homes.

One of their hands is an excellent shot, they set catch em live traps and caught a few strays. both lab type dogs in good condition, no collars, turned them over to animal control and noone clamed them. The pack with the smaller dog came back and were shot with the smaller dog on top of another dead calf. no collars on those dogs. so far 15 dogs either caught in the trap turned over to animal control or shot in the pastures. no collars on any of them.

I'm just outside Houston and surrounded by suburbs. I didn't see the strays kill my hens but came home to 40 hens dead in their 2 acre pasture. Hens are easy for dogs to kill really fast. I can't even have hens anymore around here because of the stray dog problems. I have chain link fence too, except strays will dig under to get to livestock. The only way I can have hens is buy a trained livestock dog bonded with chickens that kills dogs.

Just in the past month I've seen several stray dogs looked in good condition loose on the streets. rescued a jack russel and a dachund who were in the street. Found their owners who lived close. Dogs got out, dachund was an unnutered male w/ a collar who got out or their yard. Took in one stray that was very thin and my postman remembered what house she came from. Went there, the people moved out and had left their dogs in the yard. 2 old dogs were starving to death in the back yard. Had to call animal control to help catch them they were so unsocialised. I kept the one that found me, shes a sweetie but sure cost plenty for Vet care.

sorry this is so long but stray dogs are such a problem around here because people leave their pets unattended in their yards or even worse uncared for totally, dumped like garbage.

Please don't leave your dogs unattended in their yard if there is even a slight chance your fence won't hold them or a gate can be opened by anyone. They can get into a lot of troubles when stray.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #200)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:17 PM

210. Strays are a problem all over the place

When our last dog had to be put to sleep because of old age, I decided to no longer own dogs. When we had no neighbors and we were spending all day every day working on the farm, our dogs stayed close. But even fourteen years ago when we lost our last dog, we had too many neighbors and we were not spending all our time outside working.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #210)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:44 PM

225. How sad, no companion dogs? I always will have companion dogs in my life.


Even my own pets some who would chase the hens if they had the chance our very secure chain-link fence always was enough to keep them seperate.

Those hens were not safe from strays who dug up, even pulled the chainlink fabric out from the 6 inch bury, to kill my hens.



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Response to Sunlei (Reply #225)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:59 PM

233. No, no more dogs for me and it was a good decision.

Just before we had to put our old dog to sleep, I messed up my back bad. A couple of years later, my first knee went bad. Then I spent twelve years getting various operations and not being able to walk much.

I just got both knees replaced last year but I am out of the habit of having dogs. I just can't guarantee that I can take proper care of one and make sure it gets enough exercise and attention. That is not fair to the dog so I won't have another. The people who take care of the farm for me have dogs and I can play with them when they visit.

I'm more of a cat person anyway. We only have one cat now and he's finally mellowing out at eleven years old. He's kinda feral and kind of vicious. Until he's gone, we're not adopting another cat but when we are ready, we will adopt two cats that will get along and be indoor only cats. As crazy as my cat is, he still gives me lots of pleasure.

And I still have a few horses, even if they are just pasture ornaments and I can't take care of them. But they do not need the same attention and interaction that a dog or cat does.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #233)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:30 AM

252. kitties and horses are good pets

I have one of those 'big dogs' too worry about stray dogs chasing my mare, she loves dogs but once kicked the crap out of a pitbull that chased us when out riding. She spent her first couple years in the wilds of nevada and she has 'natural skills' to protect herself from attacks. she loved my hens, I so wish I could have a farm again out here. If not for the stray dog city problem.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #252)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 03:07 AM

269. Nice horse!

True blacks are so rare.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #252)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:44 PM

333. what a pretty girl!

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:38 PM

7. As much as it pains me to say it

the farmer had a right to shoot dogs that were chasing his livestock. It isn't something I would ever do and I think it is horrible he didn't try any other alternate means to stop the dogs from chasing the sheep. Bernese Mountain dogs are great pets and I feel for the family - but people need to learn to control their dogs.

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Response to cabot (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:41 PM

11. Dogs get out accidentally

When my kids were younger their friends left our front door ajar and our dog would bolt. It didn't happen a lot, but it happens. It seems like a real extreme attitude to off them when they're obviously your neighbor's pets.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #11)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:44 PM

17. I agree

Dogs do get out accidentally...and if they wander into a psycho's yard and mess with his livestock, the psycho is going to shoot the dog.

As I said, I would never kill an animal unless it was threatening me, my family, or - if I had any - my livestock. Bernese Mountain dogs are very docile. I don't condone what the farmer did but it is his right.

Anyone with half a brain would have realized the dogs were family pets.

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Response to cabot (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:48 PM

21. I didn't think you were condoning it.

I'm addressing the points in your post referring to the gun nuts who abuse that law. What I'm hoping, and as I said in the OP, when more and more people see this, people will demand the laws to become more balanced to take into account these extreme "bring it on" types.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #21)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:50 PM

22. Oh...we both agree on that point

I don't understand the "shoot first" mentality that permeates parts of US society. And I truly feel for the family. I love dogs - I'm a dog lover...I've always had dogs. I could never hurt one, let alone shoot it.

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Response to cabot (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:42 PM

12. It doesn't pain you. Don't bullshit us.

I know your kind.

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Response to upaloopa (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:45 PM

19. You don't know me

So don't fucking assume you do. Legally, the guy had the right to kill the dogs.

And shove the "I know your type" up your ass.

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Response to cabot (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:50 PM

23. Yes it is sad.

Also the term "natural herder" thrown out there as if that makes it OK that they were chasing the sheep.

A natural herder needs painstaking training to herd in a way that does not panic the animals or run them into barbed wire.

Pregnant ewes can miscarry if panicked too much. They may have been breed at this time of year.

And I really doubt this was the FIRST time the dogs escaped.

If the animal escapes it is time to strengthen and reinforce against that.

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Response to cabot (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:54 PM

27. Legally, he can do this - not rare in rural areas, or even not-so-rural when livestock are involved

Should he have done this? I'd say no.

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Response to hatrack (Reply #27)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:19 PM

66. Sad but true..

My uncle had his likes-to-wander dog shot by neighbor in the 90s...And that was in a suburban neighborhood, not a farm with livestock...My uncle couldn't do much about it (not that he'd wanted to, because the neighbor was a trigger-happy sociopath)...Not long after that he and his family moved to another state.

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Response to cabot (Reply #7)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:11 PM

43. No, he didn't

Had it been a continual problem, yes, but there's no evidence of that...the farmer was int he wrong...100%

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:42 PM

13. Just about anyone who has livestock will shoot a dog that is harassing them.

Last edited Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Those are large dogs and can do a lot of damage, they might be of the herding breed but I doubt they were trained herding dogs. I don't blame the sheep farmer. I would have done the same thing.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:43 PM

15. Wow, you're a sicko

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #15)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:44 PM

18. Not a sicko at all. Dogs can do a lot of damage to smaller livestock.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #18)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:51 PM

24. You said you'd do the same thing

knowing these dogs were family pets. That's incredibly cold, sick, extreme, laws or not. This just highlights for sane people that laws must change, and I hope this evil incident will be the straw.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:55 PM

30. And while the farmer goes and looks for the owners of the dogs

for them to come and control their dogs how many of his livestock could be killed or injured? A lot.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #30)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:09 PM

38. You're justifying murdering family pets

The dogs weren't hurting his sheep, they were chasing them. This guy had killed other pets. Sick. What is it about guns that people lose their common sense?

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #38)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:41 PM

166. For all the man knew, the dogs were going to kill his sheep

And since it's been said that this man is not a "farmer" since he only has four acres, those sheep are his pets just as much as the trespassing dogs were the pets of the family that didn't keep them confined.

As I said before, one of my dogs killed one of my goats. The dog had never shown any sign aggression to the goats before, but that day something triggered his aggression and he grabbed one of the goats and killed it in seconds. There was nothing we could have done to stop the dog, even if I had a gun in my hand, I couldn't have shot my dog fast enough to save the goat.

After that, the dog was not reliable to have on a farm. I had to get rid of him or put him down. We were expecting our mares to start foaling and I could not afford to let a dog who had proven he would kill unpredictably to stay on my farm. I found a family who had a secure location with no livestock nearby and no children and they adopted the dog.

"Pet" dogs kill a lot of livestock. Unattended dogs allowed to wander tend to build packs and hunt. Dogs trained to herd are raised with their livestock and they consider the herd part of their pack. Untrained dogs, no matter what their breeding, are not going to "herd" livestock that is not part of their pack.

I've had "pet" dogs that are perfectly behaved with their owners turn aggressive to my horses, cats, and to me when I've tried to get them away from my animals. My territory is not theirs and the dogs get extremely defensive because they KNOW they are invading my territory. I'm too old to try to deal with an 80 pound Labradoodle and his buddy or a 120 pound Rotweiler when they are chasing (or being chased by) my horses or attacking my cats. And I am definitely too old to let dogs that have tried to attack me come back on my property.

Don't tell me to not do what I can to defend my animals or myself - when one of those dogs gets on my porch and tries to tear my 18 year old cat apart, if I can grab a weapon and KILL the fuckers, I will.

Now think about what you would do when the adrenalin gets pumping because some asshole lets their dogs run loose on your property. Would you stand back and try to find the dogs owner while they rip your animals apart. I doubt it.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #30)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:16 PM

58. Really, domesticated dogs? Natural herders?

What phucking bullshit to justify your obvious hatred of pets.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #58)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:33 PM

79. I didn't call them natural herders, the article stated that.

And that is why I said I doubted they were trained. As for hating pets, mine are very spoiled and I love them very much. And they don't roam beyond their boundaries. Training will teach them that. My Australian Shepard will not step foot into the pasture when chasing a rabbit unless I am with her.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #58)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:36 PM

163. An untrained "natural herder" can do plenty of damage.

Should he have waited until panicked sheep ran into the sides of buildings, trampled each other or strangled themselves in fencing?

It's a tragedy, but I can't blame the farmer for what happened.

The animals may have been pets, but in that situation they were still dangerous to those sheep.

A trained dog does NOT chase sheep. A trained dog makes them think it was their idea to go somewhere in the first place.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #58)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:00 PM

199. Dude, go out and take a walk or something.

"Your obvious hatred of pets" is just a teensy bit over the top, don't you think?

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Response to Autumn (Reply #18)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:11 PM

45. Is trhere evidence they did that?

Or are you making shit up?

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #15)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:23 PM

73. I think it's very inappropriate for you to stoop to name-calling here, Sugarcoated.

 

Argumentum ad hominem is an automatic default in any kind of debate.

Your attitude here is small-minded. You have made no effort to see the point of view of the farmer.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:43 PM

16. ...and if these dogs had killed or injured his livestock?

Who's responsible if the dogs had returned home after killing or injuring the farmer's livestock?

The farmer.

The cold hard truth to this story is: mistake or not; control your pets.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:45 PM

20. Then take it to court

What the hell? Boom Boom! Shoot em up, right?

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:53 PM

25. So now the the farmer has to incur lawyer fees too...?

If noone saw the dogs kill or maim livestock, how well do you think that holds up in court.

The article also fails to state how many times these dogs have accidentally chased his livestock either...

Look, I don't exactly agree with shooting the dogs right on site; no warning; most farmers don't.

There may me much more to this than we know...

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:55 PM

28. if they were chasing his livestock

they the farmer had every right to stop the threat to his animals. This is established lw thatgos back to the founding of this nation. The concept is probably out of reach of city dwellers.

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:13 PM

49. I'm not a city dweller, I come from a small town in upstate NY

and I understand the firearm need, just not shooting someone's family pets. It's not so black and white. He knew what he was doing and chose to go the extreme route.

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:14 PM

54. Screw your stupid post...

You are assuing these dogs did hgarmn...that's not in the article..was this more than a one-time occurrence...wouldn't that be in the article? "city dwellers"?? Is that code?

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Response to Niceguy1 (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:42 PM

84. You know this was in a residential neighborhood, right?

And that the shooter was discharging a weapon within 450 feet of other residences?

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:23 PM

116. Why do the dogs get to live and the sheep have to die?

What makes a dogs life more valuable than a sheep's life? Why do you think that a sheep should have to suffer being brutally ripped apart by another animal, while the dog doing the ripping should be spared?

Ultimately the lives of all animals are equal in value. We humans, as their owners, assign them relative "values". If the owner of the sheep considered them to be more "valuable" than the dog, why should the dog owners opinions get to trump his?

Let me switch this up. Your dog is being attacked by another more vicious dog on your front porch. You have an axe in your hand and can kill the attacking dog with it. If you swing it, the viscous dog dies and your dog survives. If you don't, the viscous dog lives, and your dog gets mauled to death. What would you do? Which animal is more worthy of being saved? Why?

That's the decision that farmers and ranchers face when their animals are being attacked. One of the animals is going to die, and they're simply making sure that it isn't theirs.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #20)


Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 06:53 PM

26. Poor dogs, poor family!

Berners are such beautiful animals. What a tragedy!

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:03 PM

34. Control your pets

I'm a responsible pet owner and would not shoot a dog myself unless it was physically threatening me or a family member but I don't blame the farmer for protecting his livestock.

The situation is no different than if it had been two coyotes chasing his sheep. Canines are predators and it is not going to matter to the sheep whether it's killed by a coyote or a dog, the end result is the same. Not reasonable to expect the farmer to stand there and watch some of his sheep get killed. Expecting him to hold out a milkbone and escort the dogs off his property is probably an unrealistic expectation.

Some interesting information at this link;

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/sheep/facts/02-029.htm

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #34)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:15 PM

56. I'm a responsible pet owner

but if my dog escapes, I would be mortified if someone shot here. Here people look at the tag and call the person whose dog they find. The farmer could have done the same. He killed because he wanted to kill.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #56)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:47 PM

87. Do you have a crystal ball?

Kind of presumptuous to believe you know his motivation. On the face of things, he killed the dogs because they were harming his livestock. I'd be upset if my dog was shot too but if there was a legitimate reason, such as killing livestock or attacking the child next door, I'd have to live with it. Again, the person at fault here is the owner that did not adequately contain his pets. It's a sad story but the farmer has the right to protect his livestock, end of story.

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #87)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:47 PM

89. I highly doubt it

The story didn't say his sheep were hurt.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #89)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:00 PM

94. Getting chased

They didn't have to be physically injured at the time, getting chased by dogs can have negative impacts later on, the link that I posted mentioned that being chased by dogs can cause spontaneous abortion or prevent future pregnancy in ewes, both of which can have an economic impact for the farmer but which would be almost impossible to collect damages for in a civil action.

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Response to Crepuscular (Reply #94)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:48 PM

133. if someone killed my dog

That would be the end of me. Pets are far more than commodities. They are family members.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #56)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:01 PM

172. have you ever tried to stop a dog in a frenzy?

Even if it's your own dog, it's almost impossible to stop a dog. if it is a dog you don't know, it's really hard - times four for two dogs.

I tried to stop my own dog from killing one of my goats and couldn't. This was a dog that I would never have expected to become livestock aggressive. As soon as his target was dead, he reverted back to his normal, agreeable personality. If I had not seen him kill the goat, I would not have believed it. In the middle of his frenzy, he was trying to attack any of the four humans attempting to get him to let go of the goat.

I've had to stop stray dogs from attacking my cats on my porch and had the dogs turn on me. If I had my gun handy, I would have shot them and been justified. There was not time and no way for me to try to look for tags - which the dogs didn't have since they had no collars. I would have been seriously injured if I had tried to do that. As it was, it took two weeks for me to find out who the owners were and another two weeks before they admitted that their dogs were getting loose regularly (after they retrieved them from my property a half dozen times.

The story such as it is, only tells one side of the event. There is nothing from the sheep owner's side. The dog owners claim this was a one time thing - the owners of the dogs that attacked my cat and me claimed their dogs had never been out of their yard. I saw the dogs in my pastures numerous times before I could locate who the owners were and a half dozen times after they had been notified their dogs were wandering the neighborhood being aggressive. If I had shot those dogs, they would have claimed I had no justification. Two 80 pound dogs attacking my cat and me is plenty of justification for trying to kill the damn dogs.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #172)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:18 PM

182. only when my dog gets into spats

with her friends. I wouldn't really call it a frenzy. Dogs vary a great deal in their aggression levels. Mine is very passive. My brother's German Shepard is an entirely other matter.

It looks to me like this rancher responded to the possibility of harm rather than it's actual execution. Obviously we don't know all the details, but a dog is highly unlikely to want to kill and eat a sheep. They are far too big. A cat is another matter. They are small and look like rabbits and squirrels. My dog now knows they are not a food group, but it took some training. She's now great friends with the neighbor cat.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #182)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:32 PM

186. Check out the link another DUer posted

Maybe dogs don't kill sheep (but they do) they just "play" with them. Like a cat plays with a mouse. And it can do a lot of damage to the sheep that can end up killing them.

As I said in another post, I SAW my own dog kill one of my goats adn there was not a damn thing I could do about it. There were four of us there and we could not stop the goat's death. That goat was not a lot smaller than a sheep - or a foal. Since my business was breeding horses, I had to get rid of that dog. Lucky for the dog, we found it a new home with no livestock, no kids.
Dogs play with sheep, they chase them and bite them—sometimes ripping the flesh away to expose tendons and bones—and before finishing off the sheep, the dog will leave because it's bored or hungry and go home for a bowl of Puppy Chow in the kitchen. Playful dogs kill sheep slowly; their victims are eaten alive by fly larva, death in the warm Summer months comes in about 3 days. "Where is Puff, Spot?"
http://www.catskill-merino.com/blog/the-crying-game-iii

The dead coyote didn't do this—no coyote did—this was done by a neighborhood dog last September. (see The Crying Game II) A coyote would have taken this ewe by the neck and killed her in seconds to eat her liver; this carnage is from a humanized dog, a pet dog; judging by the number and extent of her injuries, my guess is that the attack lasted almost a half hour; the dog chased her round and round (as the flock watched) and bit her repeatedly in the hind quarters (the mark of a dog attack) Tiring, she finally gave up and went down. knowing she was going to die, but domestic dogs rarely kill, they play with their prey. They play at being wild; this is their nature. (I see it in Poem, I work with it, I train her to use her nature for me, to herd sheep with just the threat of her teeth, safely, proudly.) Down but alive—the play-crazed dog gnawed on her left leg—she lost wool, she lost skin, she lost blood, the flesh was gone, the will to live was going... Why did the dog stop? Probably because the ewe stopped struggling, as she had resigned herself to die. Bored, the dog left; but it will come back.
http://www.catskill-merino.com/blog/The%20Crying%20Game


Take a look at the injuries to that guy's sheep and read about his experiences with "pet" dogs.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #186)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:37 PM

189. What if he had killed your cats?

How would you feel?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #189)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:56 PM

197. Which dog? Mine? Or the neighbor's dogs that attacked the cats?

I would have been ready to kill the dogs, whether mine or someone else's. When the dog comes onto my property, it had better be under someone's control.

My dog that killed the goat was my responsibility. If I had not been able to find a home for it where I thought he would be no danger, I would have had him put down. He had proven he was dangerous under the right circumstances.

The neighbors' dogs that came on my property and attacked my cats (more than one neighbor, more than one cat, more than one dog, multiple incidents), I was ready to kill if I had not been able to stop them. The Rotweiller, fortunately, was well trained and stopped as soon as I gave him commands.

The Labradoodles who did not respond to commands or being hit, and turned to attack me - I was ready to shoot and kill both of them. Those dogs were/are dangerous. They became aggressive to humans and they are big enough to do a lot of damage. With two of them, they were acting as pack animals and not acting like domesticated pets.

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Response to csziggy (Reply #197)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:24 PM

214. If they behaved badly

that was your doing. Dogs are only poorly behaved because the owner didn't train them properly. Based on your views of your animals, I'm not surprised they don't listen to you. The relationship between person and dog depends on a bond where the dog wants to please her owner. Mine won't leave the yard without me, even if the gate is open. If I start walking, she automatically follows me without being called.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #214)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:38 PM

223. The dog that killed the goat had been perfectly behaved

Until that day when something about the goats triggered his kill instinct. We'd had him about a month - adopted from the animal shelter - and had been working to train him around the livestock. He was trained to obey people and had that down pat. But we obviously did not have him trained to behave around livestock. I didn't dare take a chance on that dog with new foals expected so soon.

Our other dogs that we had for years, especially the last dog, were never a problem. They understood that the horses and the cats were part of our herd and recognized my husband and I were the "pack leaders". They stayed close to home and with us as we worked around the farm. One was found living off road kill and the other was given to us when he lost his home to a divorce. Both those dogs obeyed us and anyone that came to the farm. Neither ever was agressive to humans or livestock, though the little guy that had lived off road kill was death to squirrels and armadillos.

The other dogs that behaved badly and that attacked my cats were not my dogs. They were strays that belonged to people that allowed them to roam free illegally. It was their owners who didn't train them properly. It's not my responsibility to train a stray dog that is being aggressive to my animals and to me.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:09 PM

37. If you live in a rural area and your dog chases your

neighbor's livestock, the chances are that your dog will be shot. That's the way it has always been.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:11 PM

42. Maybe in Arkansas

but not here in PA. Not gonna fly.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #42)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:16 PM

57. Have you ever lived in a rural setting? Have you evet

raised livestock? Dogs who threaten livestock usually wind up dead and that's not just in Arkansas. It's pretty universal.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #57)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:08 PM

306. I Live

in a rural setting, we have outdoor animals, we've had outdoor animals killed by dogs. We've had outdoor animals killed by foxes and by hawks. Never by the occasional family pet dog who wandered onto the property. We've managed not to shoot anything. Maybe a rat a couple times.

We don't make a living with our animals and neither did this pathetic individual. And frankly, if you want to get economical about it, a Bermese Mountain dog is worth more than a sheep, so the dog gets the benefit of the doubt in a dog vs sheep weigh-in. Same reason we don't kill foxes who get our chickens. If my animal gets loose and does damage on your property, send me the bill, don't shoot the animal. Chester Springs ain't the wild west. Actually, it's about as far as you can get from the wild west and still see a tree.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #42)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:18 PM

63. It would fly in Virginia

Virginia Code 3.2-6552 - Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry.
Virginia Code > Title 3.2 > Chapter 65 > § 3.2-6552 - Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry.

Current as of: 2011
Check for updates
2008 version

§ 3.2-6552. Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry.

It shall be the duty of any animal control officer or other officer who may find a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock or poultry to kill such dog forthwith whether such dog bears a tag or not. Any person finding a dog committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section shall have the right to kill such dog on sight as shall any owner of livestock or his agent finding a dog chasing livestock on land utilized by the livestock when the circumstances show that such chasing is harmful to the livestock. Any court shall have the power to order the animal control officer or other officer to kill any dog known to be a confirmed livestock or poultry killer, and any dog killing poultry for the third time shall be considered a confirmed poultry killer. The court, through its contempt powers, may compel the owner, custodian, or harborer of the dog to produce the dog.

Any animal control officer who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock or poultry shall be empowered to seize such dog solely for the purpose of examining such dog in order to determine whether it committed any of the depredations mentioned herein. Any animal control officer or other person who has reason to believe that any dog is killing livestock, or committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section, shall apply to a magistrate serving the locality wherein the dog may be, who shall issue a warrant requiring the owner or custodian, if known, to appear before a general district court at a time and place named therein, at which time evidence shall be heard. If it shall appear that the dog is a livestock killer, or has committed any of the depredations mentioned in this section, the district court shall order that the dog be: (i) killed immediately by the animal control officer or other officer designated by the court; or (ii) removed to another state that does not border on the Commonwealth and prohibited from returning to the Commonwealth. Any dog ordered removed from the Commonwealth that is later found in the Commonwealth shall be ordered by a court to be killed immediately.

(1984, c. 492, § 29-213.85; 1985, c. 385; 1987, c. 488, § 3.1-796.116; 1990, c. 222; 1993, c. 977; 1998, c. 817; 2008, cc. 551, 691, 860.)

http://www.lawserver.com/law/state/virginia/va-code/virginia_code_3-2-6552

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #42)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:25 PM

75. Legal in PA. It would be OK in most parts of California as well.

 

Depredation.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #75)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:43 PM

167. Not legal in PA

to discharge a weapon within 450 feet of other domiciles. Looks like that's exactly what he did.

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Response to yewberry (Reply #167)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:14 PM

206. Oh, he's in deep caca

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Response to yewberry (Reply #167)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 10:41 AM

281. Did you bother to read the article cited in the OP?

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #281)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 04:09 PM

322. Yes, along with some other articles about it.

Apparently you did not.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #281)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:52 PM

343. More details here:

http://articles.philly.com/2013-02-23/news/37244142_1_older-dog-state-dog-law-sheep-owner

Posted elsewhere in the thread, but in case you didn't see it.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #42)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:28 PM

184. Legal in Rhode Island

4-13-18. Destruction of dogs in defense of person or livestock. --

Any person may kill any dog that suddenly assaults him or her or any person of his or her family or in his or her company, while the person assaulted is out of the enclosure of the owner or keeper of that dog and any person may kill any dog found out of the enclosure of its owner or keeper, assaulting, wounding, or killing any cattle, sheep, lamb, horse, hog, or fowl, not the property of its owner.

G.L. 1896, ch. 111, § 6; G.L. 1909, ch. 135, § 6; G.L. 1923, ch. 136, § 6; G.L. 1938, ch. 639, § 6; G.L. 1956, § 4-13-18; P.L. 1981, ch. 374, § 1.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #42)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:48 PM

192. It'll happen in Calif

maybe not the first time but don't expect them to live long if they survive the automobiles.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:12 PM

48. That's a shame

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:17 PM

59. Well, since it's always been that way, it's ok...

The farmer was an asshole...

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:19 PM

67. That's not the way it's always been. This is a very recent trend

In the entire history of domesticated animals, it's only been very recently--since the invention and adoption of guns by people who like to shoot things--that it was even possible to execute others' pets with a gun.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #67)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:18 PM

151. Actually, most state codes have sections relating to just this circumstance. See the post a few up..

for the Virginia code.

And most of these codes go back 100-150 years. It's only recently (last 75 years) that pets > livestock.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/free-books/dog-book/chapter9-2.html

A farmer or rancher doesn't have to wait until a dog has sunk its teeth into a calf or lamb; most laws allow killing a dog that is chasing or preparing to attack livestock, or fleeing after an attack. In Kentucky, for example, any dog that is "pursuing or wounding any livestock" can be killed. (Ky. Rev. Stat. § 258.235.) The dog must, however, be caught in the act. As one court put it, "it is not the dog's predatory habits, nor his past transgressions, nor his reputation, however bad, but the doctrine of self-defense, whether of person or property, that gives the right to kill." (State v. Smith, 156 N.C. 628, 72 S.E. 321 (1911).)


Note the date on that case (1911).

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #151)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:43 PM

168. My point was that

Guns haven't been around nearly as long as domesticated livestock and pets. The inference was that surely there's some other way to scare dogs off, something short of killing them.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #168)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:31 PM

185. If you think that back in antiquity, other means weren't used to kill roaming dogs..

.. then I can't help you. Shepherd's crooks often had a heavy end that not only fit around sheep or goats' necks, but also served as a blunt object.

http://woolshed1.blogspot.com/2008/08/shepherds-crook-brief-history.html

Back in antiquity, livestock meant LIFE, much moreso than today.

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #185)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:34 PM

187. Yes, but did shepherds on occasion resort to just scaring them off on occasion?

One would think so. I was not attempting to solicit help from you, by the way, so there's no need to worry about your not being able to help me. Thanks.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #187)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:02 PM

202. I would expect that the goal would be to stop the attacking dog. If it were killed, so be it. n/t

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #202)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:07 PM

203. Yes, be it so. I've made my point; you've made yours. n/t

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #67)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:13 PM

205. You ought to talk to some of the ranchers in West County.

It is the way it's always been. It's not about somebody's pet; it's about animals that are threatening their livestock. If you dog starts chasing their cattle, it's going to be a dead dog.

I watched one of those ranchers have to put down a calf after a pit bull got it by the nose and wouldn't let go. The dog's owner eventually got the dog off, but the calf was fucked.

We found a nice home for the pit bull. His owners live in West County, too, and they keep him securely fenced. And as farmers themselves, they understand what'll happen to him if he goes after somebody's cows again.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #205)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:26 PM

215. Admittedly, I've always been a city dweller, whether SR or elsewhere

And I'd like to think I academically understand the potential need to shoot a dog. But city rube or not, it would be nice to see other methods tried first, if and when possible. If the story you related had ended with the dog being shot, I might have understood that more easily than the story in the OP, since the dogs in the OP didn't sound like they did any harm. But forget my hypothetical--I think it's great you were able to find a home for the dog.

On a local note, it's looking like it will be a great weekend to get outside--hope you enjoy yours.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #67)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:28 PM

218. Slings were used to protect livestock long before guns..

Slings were much cheaper to make than bows and arrows, ammo was simply smooth stones, and easier to carry than bows and arrows. With practice a shepard could become deadly accurate with one. There are written accounts of slings being used by shepards thousands of years ago.

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Response to GreenStormCloud (Reply #218)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:37 PM

222. Thanks for that

Dumb question: obviously, a rock could kill or it could just bruise, depending on where it hits. The only thing I know of slings is an image I have from a childhood bible story book of David and Goliath. In other words, I know nothing about slings. So here's the question: were they going for a kill, or trying to just scare the animals off? Either way, if I were the dog in the equation, I'd rather take my chances with the rock rather than the bullet. Thank you.

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Response to Arkansas Granny (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:46 PM

86. This wasn't in a rural area.

?w=584&h=260

Housing development with one-acre lots.

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Response to yewberry (Reply #86)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:46 PM

190. I don't mean to sound harsh but

if it's rural enough to keep sheep, in plurality, and pasture them then it's at least semi-rural. No matter if it is, if dogs are running his sheep, whether it's accepted by everyone or not, he had the right to shoot them. It happens and like many have explained above, just because the dogs were shot does not imply that the guy was salivating over the chance to kill someone's pets. Pets or no, the dogs were harassing his sheep and once dogs get into that kind of activity, the chances are real good that they'll do it again. Just because someone loves them a lot doesn't mean they will behave and stay in the yard. It's a sad event but calling the guy a gun nut over it is a little presumptuous don't you think?


What if you did something unpopular with your friends and neighbors, would you think it okay that people who only know what some newspaper hack wrote about it started condemning you for life and make such assumptions about you? No matter what it was about?

Not every incident involving a gun means that a psychopath is on the loose.

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Response to 2naSalit (Reply #190)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:11 PM

307. This incident does, in fact, involve an unbalanced individual on the loose with a gun

The shooter has been charged with a crime. His sheep were not being threatened--they were in a pen. He shot one dog in the face, and the other as it ran away. He murdered two dogs.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:12 PM

46. Not cool shooting dogs...

 

But I bet there are some here who would change there tune if it was a pit bull terrier breed looking dog......just saying....

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:13 PM

51. You must not get out in the country much, Sugarcoated.

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #51)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:18 PM

61. Doesn't mean she/he is not right...

The asshat farmer probably could have chased them off...and the article doesn't say this happened a lot...the faremr is scum...end of discussion.

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Response to joeybee12 (Reply #61)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:20 PM

211. He cornered one of the dogs as it cowered

and shot it point blank, in the head. He probably got a thrill from it, and judging from the sick VM message he left to for the owners, he has issues.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #211)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:17 AM

246. the truth of what happened will surface and a lot of posters supporting this..

will look like idiots. this asshole executed these dogs.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #51)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:12 PM

106. you fucking live in san diego, country joe.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:19 PM

68. The only real question, for me, is whether the rancher knew that the dogs belonged to a neighbor.

If he did, and she shot them anyway, then he needs an ass kicking.

Unfortunately, as someone who has had to shoot a few dogs myself when I lived in the country, I can't blame him much if he DIDN'T know whose dogs they were. This is an almost daily occurrence in rural areas of the country.

This is really a problem created by city dwellers themselves (ourselves? I no longer live in the country). People dump their dogs in the countryside on an almost constant basis, those dogs go wild or start to starve, and start attacking just about anything that moves. A rancher watching a wild dog go after his livestock faces a grim reality...no matter what he does, an animal is going to suffer and die. The ranchers only input is to choose WHICH of the animal dies, and they'll usually pick the intruder.

The last time I killed a pair of dogs, they were chasing my horses. Three of them had walked into the pasture and were chasing my wifes horse and a yearling around, nipping at them the entire time. Those horses were just as much "family" to me as those dogs may have been to someone else. It's always a sad thing when you have to shoot an animal, but you can't ask someone to just standby and watch as their own animals are maimed or killed, just to "protect" someone else's pet. If that rancher didn't know who the dogs belonged to, he had little choice....he had to defend the animals in his care from two apparent predators.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #68)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:22 PM

72. Thank you for this much needed perspective on the situation... n/t

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Response to Xithras (Reply #68)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:30 PM

121. Bernese mountain Dogs are extremely gentle.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #121)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:38 PM

126. While that may be so...

... how was the farmer to know that? I'd personally never heard of the breed before opening this thread. Other than my daughters Labradoodle (which technically aren't a "breed"), all of my dogs have been lovable mutts

When you look out and see two dogs chasing down your animals, you don't have time to identify the breed on Wikipedia and look up it's temperment characteristics.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #126)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:11 PM

177. And gentle dogs can be aggressive to other people than their owners

The most people aggressive dogs I have had to deal with were Labradoodles. They chased my horses, attacked my 18 year old cat (ON my front porch) and when I tried to chase them off the cat, they turned aggressive to me. Even on a different day with no cat around, the dogs became aggressive towards me with no provocation.

ANY breed of dog can be aggressive. And even a well trained dog can be aggressive to animals that are not part of their own pack. A Rotweiller that used to show up here apparently was perfectly fine with his family's cats, but he attacked one of ours when he was allowed to stray onto our farm. Fortunately, unlike the Labradoodles, the Rotweiller was well trained. As soon as I told him to stop and sit, he obeyed, even in the middle of his attack. While he was aggressive to our horses and cats, he was never people aggressive.

In any case, if a dog or dogs are being aggressive to my animals on my property, I am not taking the time to try to check their tags and call their owners.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #126)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:05 PM

337. They are sheep herding dogs. A sheep farmer would probably know that. especially if they live next

door. Sheep dogs, bernese, these are all sheep herders. they do not hurt sheep.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #121)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:30 PM

158. as a dog groomer, I am qualified

to argue they are not gentle. They are big and inbred and many are anxious and twitchy.

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Response to larkrake (Reply #158)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:14 PM

178. A lot of dogs hate groomers, so you're not really qualified, no.

My best friend is a dog groomer, she gets bit all the time. They're afraid.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #68)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:03 PM

174. Thank you!

Most people, including dog owners, do not understand the interaction of dogs with livestock.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:22 PM

71. Neighbor's dogs killed our chickens

We came home and caught them in the act. They were two beagles who were clearly having fun chasing and killing the chickens, not trying to get something to eat. They were friendly and came to us when we called them. It took us a day find the owner, who lived more than a mile away. She apologized and promptly paid for the chickens. We warned her that if it happened again the dogs would be shot, as a second instance would have to be considered a pattern for the dogs.

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Response to snpsmom (Reply #71)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:59 PM

93. Sorry about the lose of your chickens. A guy move here w/ a pack of huskies he allowed to roam free

They killed chickens, goats, rabbits. Until finally someone shot them. It's the damned owners most often who deserve the punishment.

When it's an accident and a pet dog gets out… then it's definitely a tragedy.

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Response to snpsmom (Reply #71)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:14 PM

109. you handled the situation in the best possible fashion..

some people are perfectly content to exercise their right by engaging in a revenge killing.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 07:37 PM

81. Owners of sheep and cattle herds will have guns.

There can and are animal and human threats to herds, and, as a daughter of the countryside, I don't begrudge reasonable people reasonable firearms, so long as they have complied with all applicable laws in obtaining and using such firearms.

However, these folks are utter and complete ignoramuses and assholes, with absolutely no love in their malignant hearts whatsoever, and I hope that the Higher Power, if he, she or it exists, will duly note these people's transgressions on the hearts of these wonderful animals and their humans with their heinous and vile actions.

I have yet to find a legal method to ban such humans, as much as I would like.

That being said, I say with complete conviction that these dogs are waiting safely at the rainbow bridge for their humans, will continue to wait no matter how long it takes.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)


Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:00 PM

95. So far, I don't see any real reason to be mad at the farmer.

Maybe there are some links I am missing, but there isn't a thing in the article that says the farmer knew the dogs were harmless.

The owner of the dogs said that in his opinion, the dogs were no danger to the sheep (how many times have we heard pitbull owners say that their dog wouldn't hurt a fly?..after it attacked someone). The owner of the dog also says that it's his belief that the dogs were just standing there when they were killed, and not running. His "belief" does not equal fact.

The farmer gives no comment in the article.

Based on the article, the dog's owners screwed up and the dogs escaped, went on to the farmer's property, and were shot.

We don't know that the farmer knew they were harmless family pets. We don't know that this only happened once

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Response to Captain Stern (Reply #95)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:17 PM

110. they were both shot in the head..

not too much of a stretch to think that he probably executed the animals.

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Response to Captain Stern (Reply #95)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:24 PM

118. The shooter was just being a sadistic creep

There a more than a few sadistic creeps out there. I cannot believe the supporters he has on this forum.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #118)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:43 AM

266. What makes you think he was being a sadistic creep?

Am I missing something from the article? Perhaps there's info that I haven't seen.

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Response to Captain Stern (Reply #266)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:44 PM

299. The owner claims he shot them while they were standing in front of him not running.

that is execution not protection.

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Response to Captain Stern (Reply #95)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:30 PM

123. I have a small farm and raise dairy goats.

I also have dogs..Australian shepherds, which are herding dogs. My dogs are pets and I love them, but I do not let them run. I also love my goats...I love each and every one of them every bit as much as I love my dogs. If you have ever raised goats or sheep or horses, you know you would do whatever you must to protect them from danger. The number one threat to goats and sheep is the domestic dog. A dog chasing...just chasing a goat can cause it's death, miscarriage, shock, and they will panic and run into fences, etc. I know that it is my job to protect my dogs from their natural tendency to herd and chase animals and because I know that if they run onto other farms and chase animals that they will be shot. I know it is my responsibility to protect them from the danger that natural tendency and I do it because I understand the danger that they do not comprehend. Right now I have two ten day old baby goats. I adore them and love them every bit as much as any pet I have ever had and when they look up at you with their trusting big eyes, I know I would shoot any dog that came onto my property and started chasing them...and no, I would not take the time to try to round up the dog, determine if it was someones pet, try to find it's owner, etc. I will protect my goats first. If my dogs get out by accident and go onto someone elses land and chase their goats or sheep or horses and are shot and killed, I will be very sad that it happened, but I do understand that it was my responsibility to have prevented that loss.

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Response to murray hill farm (Reply #123)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:44 AM

268. thank you

for posting a rational and reasonable comment!

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Response to Captain Stern (Reply #95)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:57 PM

344. More details here; read and you will see.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:21 PM

113. shot the two dogs in the head..

must've been a crack shot to cap these two dogs in the head at a full run.

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Response to frylock (Reply #113)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:40 PM

127. That's precisely what's raising the red flag for me over this.

The article doesn't have anything about the circumstances of the shooting (the dogs' owner uses the term "just standing there," but nothing about him being an actual witness). It doesn't mention the weapon used, either. But the fact that they were head shots tells me these were shots taken at stationary targets. Head shots on running animals is more a Hollywood thing than something that happens in real life, regardless of weapon. Shotgunners hit moving targets all the time...but not moving head shots. I'm an avid target shooter, and fairly successful in competition (long range rifle stuff, though...), and no way I'd expect to make a head shot on something the size of a dog's head moving at "sheep chasing" speed.

Sure sounds like he shot dogs that were simply standing there...not actively chasing sheep. I have a problem with that...

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #127)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:34 AM

256. evidently he shot one in the face, the other was cowering in a corner..

and people are defending this. he executed the dogs, and speculation is he lured the dogs into the sheep pen to do it.

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Response to frylock (Reply #256)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 08:59 PM

327. Oh, wow.

Yeah, it that's how it went down, I can only condemn the killings. Without immediate threat to his own animals, there's no justification, IMO.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:21 PM

114. There is nothing sweeter than a Bernese. gentle. sweet.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:43 PM

130. good people and neighbors

A good person, gun owner or not, will always try to find non-deadly means to accomplish their goals. The farmer could have probably found another way, if he was a good person. Bad people choose to use deadly force, even when other options are available- because they have the right to use deadly force, they will ignore the options that don't end with a smoking gun and a dead body. Some bad people own guns. They use the guns to help them accomplish thier goals. Sometimes the goal is to cause pain and suffering to other people. Seems to me that the farmer caused a good deal of pain and suffering- but hey! It was his right, right?

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:50 PM

134. Facebook group -- Justice for Argus and Fiona

http://www.facebook.com/groups/422960501123824/

If I was a local merchant, I would refuse service to Gabriel Pilotti.

I doubt if the dogs were actually chasing the sheep when he killed them. He had moved right up on the dogs and shot them at close range. Pilotti's neighbors hate him.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20130221_Killing_of_neighbors_dogs_in_sheep_pen_sparks_uproar.html

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:51 PM

135. Good, the god dam dog should have been shot

And if you had ever seen what a dog or two will do to sheep you'd agree. Just think about blood soaked carcasses, sometimes still bleeting animals, and while you're at it consider the economic loss to the owner of the sheep. Yeah, I'd have shot the god damned dog in a heartbeat.

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Response to 1-Old-Man (Reply #135)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:59 PM

139. Spare us the drama. The dogs were not killing the sheep

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Response to 1-Old-Man (Reply #135)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:01 PM

142. apparently, this guy shot them after getting them to stand still

he could have put a leash or a harness on 'em and given them back to his neighbors with a stern warning
but instead he executed them.

Sure, he has a right to do it, that doesn't mean he was right to do it.

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Response to 1-Old-Man (Reply #135)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:24 AM

250. you ever seen what a zombie does to a sheep?

your fantasy tale notwithstanding, this asshole executed these dogs, point fucking blank.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:57 PM

138. This may be an ignorant question, but...

 

Were the dogs chasing the sheep with relatively harmless intent (i.e., dogs just like to chase animals,) or with intent to maim and kill?


Because if the dogs were chasing the sheep in order to kill them, then the owner of the sheep would be well justified in shooting the dogs.


Obviously, it could be very difficult for the sheep owner to tell what the dog's intentions were, but I'm just asking.

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Response to OceanEcosystem (Reply #138)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:01 PM

141. Despite the fact that Pilotti told police the dogs made no contact with his sheep, ...

Despite the fact that Pilotti told police the dogs made no contact with his sheep, authorities had no choice but to determine that the shooting was legal because the dogs were attempting to herd the sheep.

http://mainlinemedianews.com/articles/2013/02/21/region/doc5126b5ac9dca0980396351.txt?viewmode=2

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:04 PM

143. It'd be a shame if somebody burned down that motherfucker's house

Fuck with my dogs, asshole, and you will pay.

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Response to tabasco (Reply #143)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:11 PM

147. Wow...Is that with him and his family inside or not?

Not that it matters, cause - not sure about PA, but in NY preventing arson is a justifiable use of deadly physical force. See..they value human life and the notion that someone may be inside.

Seems silly to die for a couple dogs, no matter how beloved they may be.

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Response to jmg257 (Reply #147)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:50 PM

301. Apparently it is now ok to advocate arson and attempted murder here now,

As long as you have a good reason.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:08 PM

145. Mrs. Bock thinks Pilotti let the dogs into the sheep pen so that he could kill them

There was a hole in Bock's fence that explains how the dogs got out.

However, there is no explanation for how they got over a different tall fence into Pilotti's "sheep pen". It is likely that the sadistic neighbor let them inside so that he could corner them and so that he could shoot them and make a claim that the dogs were harassing his sheep. This is from Mrs. Bock's facebook report.

There are many questions about what happened that are not out there because they are theories that can not be proven. Like how my dogs got into Mr. pilotti's sheep pen area. The fence was high and the dogs had never jumped a fence before. Our male definitely had the physical ability to jump it so its possible, but the female did not. The police said that from how they found the bodies, Argus was staring him in the face when Gabe shot him point blank from close range. If Argus was standing looking at Gabe, how could he be pursuing the sheep. As Gabe reloaded the gun, Fiona tried to run and was ultimately executed cowering up against the fence, according to the police. If she so easily jumped in the pen, why didn't she jump out to escape? The speculation from many, including authorities is that Gabe opened the gate to let them in so that it was "legal for him to kill them" He was well aware of the law and stated it to the police as soon as they arrived. Then, if you heard the message, called a neighbor to brag about it.

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #145)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:27 PM

156. That's heartbreaking.

Those poor pups, the little one cowering no less. I would be a mess if someone hurt my 2 mutts. God help the so-called farmer if they can prove these allegations.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #156)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 04:16 AM

271. No one help this sick bastard if these allegations can be proved. I won't type what I am thinking.

And anyone defending this sick bastard's execution of these family pets............

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #145)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:32 PM

160. The people defending this sicko should be ashamed of themselves.

I can't believe anybody thinks this is ok.

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #160)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:36 PM

161. And every 15 minutes, another defender shows up on this thread...eom

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #161)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:05 PM

175. It's either out of ignorance of the details of this particular case...

Or we have some sick fucks on DU. This guy has killed dogs before, doesn't earn money from his sheep (they keep his grass mowed), has 2 acres in a residential area (not enough to legally do keep livestock on), and called another neighbor and left a voicemail BRAGGING about it (it's on YouTube, but my iPad won't let me copy the link--) in which he says "hey Bob, it's Gene...2 shots, 2 more dogs".

And this guy is worth defending?

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #175)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:39 AM

279. Nope. He gives all livestock owners a bad rep.

The last thing I want to do is shoot somebody's dog. I have all kinds of animals here; sheep, goats, cows, chickens, ducks. I have had to stop many predators from making a meal out of them. Sometimes that means getting the 12G out. The one thing we do around here is follow the 3S rules.

Shoot. Shovel. Shut up.

Bragging about killing someone's pet is what makes this wrong on so many levels.

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Response to smokey nj (Reply #160)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:15 PM

180. The usual "Democratic" gunfuckers.

They should be careful - that orgasm's a doozy!

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #180)


Response to backscatter712 (Reply #180)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 05:49 AM

274. Poseur gungeoneers claiming to be livestock farmers

I need a bigger memo pad than the "ignore list" to keep track of these guys.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:11 PM

148. whatever his legal rationale may be...

Mr Pilotti now has much bigger problems than a couple of runaway dogs standing near his sheep pen.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:16 PM

150. Neighbor dogs are # 1 predators of sheep and goats.

In most places a farmer has the right and I think duty to eliminate dogs that are harrying their stock. Sheep and goats are completely vulnerable to dog attracts. Sheep carrying heavy wool prior to sheering more so.

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Response to TexasProgresive (Reply #150)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:27 PM

157. Which is way counter to all of the information on this thread

nobody's sheep was "attacked"

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #157)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:14 PM

179. I raise dairy goats that are protected by livestock guard dogs.

Some producers of small ruminants use Great Pyrenees, Anatolian Shepherds, Maremas and other similar breeds. The dogs are raised as puppies with the beasts they will protect. They become one with the herd and view strange dogs, coyotes,wolves, big cats and bears as the enemy. They will attempt to kill the intruders or die trying.

Some farmers use donkeys for the same thing. A young donkey raised with sheep or goats becomes one with the herd and will stomp and kick intruders to death.

Would this be more acceptable to you?

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:31 PM

159. I sympathize with the rancher

Last edited Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:18 PM - Edit history (1)

I had a neighbor whose Dachshunds (yeah, cute little Wiener dogs) got out multiple times over a 2 year period and killed over a dozen of my chickens. I caught them in the act several times and it only took minutes for them to kill and injure multiple birds. My property is fenced. My animals were on my property. My neighbor never offered to pay for any of my animals that their dogs killed. The only reason those dogs are alive today is that I ran immediately outside to stop the attacks rather than go to my gun safe to get a shotgun. I would have killed them in a minute if I caught them in the act and I had a gun in my hand. I killed a raccoon that got into my coop several times and killed 4 chickens over a one week period and I would kill a dog on my property chasing my chickens with no reservations. I don't think most people understand how protective and attached farmers and ranchers are of their livestock.

Do a search for dog maims sheep and look at some of the pictures and read the stories.





Any family pet has the capability of attacking and killing livestock. It is in a dog's nature to hunt and kill, we have just reduced the impulse by removing the need to hunt to eat. Dogs who have never seen livestock are most likely to have their chase instincts kick in. The rancher doesn't have to wait for the dogs to start killing his sheep to act.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:39 PM

164. happens every day where i live.

 

every single day. my ex's dog was shot twice. rancher said he'd 'shoot any dog i see' period. it was hard not to hurt him.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:49 PM

169. If only the dogs had been armed

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 09:57 PM

171. Here is a blog from a sheep rancher's perspective

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Response to Mortos (Reply #171)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:09 PM

176. This was not a "rancher."

This was a guy in a housing development with one-acre lots. Unfenced. So, effectively, a guy with a big yard without a fence, shooting his gun off dangerously close to other homes.

No sheep were harmed. He shot two dogs in the head, dogs he knew were not strays. Then he called a neighbor and left a voicemail: "Two shots, two more dogs." I can just feel the remorse for shooting his neighbors pet dogs, can't you?

Yes, dogs chasing and harming cattle is a problem and must be addressed. In this case, however, it's starting to look like the guy was just a huge asshole.

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Response to yewberry (Reply #176)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:22 PM

183. Some people are making a lot of assumptions about this story

The satellite view of the houses in this area look much larger than 1 acre lots. I live on 8 acres and the overhead shot looks much more like 5 acre lots than 1 acre. If it is legal for the guy to keep sheep there, it is zoned rural or farming. That usually requires lots at least 2 acres and more likely 5. The story talks about pens and fences so I don't know where you got unfenced from.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Man-Shoots-Kills-Neighbors-Dogs-But-Wont-be-Charged-Cops-192185311.html

"The 2- and 1-year-old dogs escaped from their fenced backyard last week and wound up inside a neighbor’s fence where they came face to face with a group of sheep."

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Response to Mortos (Reply #183)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:38 AM

258. the police investigating this are making a lot of assumptions as well, but here are some facts..

one dog shot point blank in the face. cops say he was looking at this asshole when he killed him. the other dog? cowering in the corner of the pen. these were REVENGE killings. executions. he may have even lured the dogs into the pen for justification. these sheep were lawnmowers and this asshole was not a farmer or a rancher.

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Response to Mortos (Reply #183)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:00 AM

262. I'm not making assumptions.

Dude in question owns 4 acres in a one-acre lot development (4 lots). Not a farmer, not a rancher. The area is zoned residential. The legality of keeping sheep here is questionable.


Unfenced:


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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)


Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:36 PM

188. I hope this highlights the importance of keeping your dogs penned

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Response to proud2BlibKansan (Reply #188)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:49 PM

194. A tree limb fell and BROKE THE FENCE

Does anyone read before commenting?

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #194)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:05 AM

280. Well then let's all make sure we keep our trees trimmed.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:49 PM

193. One dog might be called off; two or more dogs generally exhibit hunting pack behavior

In a pack, they are out to kill, and sheep are pretty defenseless animals.

The farmer was right.

Dogs on the loose also pack up and kill deer. Game wardens shoot them.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #193)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:52 PM

195. He wasn't a farmer and he wasn't right.

Based on more evidence that's come to light, charges will likely be made against the "farmer" tomorrow. Why not familiarize yourself with the case before commenting?

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #195)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:14 PM

207. I've looked up both addresses

The owner of the dogs is in a McMansion (800 to 900 K property) on a cul de sac in the development

The owner of the sheep is on a different road not in the development. There is an old house with a barn and fenced pasture across the road.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #207)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:24 PM

213. Just cause someone doesn't live in a McMansion doesn't mean they're a farmer. Just like

being born in barn doesn't make you a horse.

Apparently the real farmers in the area are insulted that he's being labeled as one of them.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:55 PM

196. A rural/suburbanite conflict.

 

If you are moving out into any place that is within a mile of any sort of livestock operation, you have to insure that you control your dogs. Otherwise you are asking for them to be shot. Dogs are the number one killer of livestock, and anybody who owns livestock is going to shoot at any dog that they see harassing their animals. A dog doesn't have to actually attack an animal to kill it, getting it to run in panic will do the trick just fine, what with running into fences, shock, etc., especially young animals.

If that doesn't seem fair to you, think if you had a neighbor's dog coming over to your place regularly and ripping up five hundred, a thousand dollars of yours(or more) and leaving the scraps in your front yard. That is essentially what is going on, not to mention that farmers get quite attached to many of their animals.

I live in the country, and have four dogs. I have a solid fenced yard, and I rarely leave my dogs outside for a long time unless I'm out there with them. That's because I have a neighbor across the road who raises cattle, and another who raises horses. They both have had to deal with idiotic neighbors who let their dogs run loose, and have suffered some serious losses. Good luck trying to get money from those folks to compensate for the loss of their livestock. They don't like to do it, but they have both had to shoot dogs that are getting into their livestock because otherwise they would be losing some serious money, and small farmers simply can't afford to do that.

As far as the merits of this case go, I can't comment on it, simply because there really isn't enough information. We have what the dog owners are saying, and what various neighbors, both pro and con, are saying. I would like to see where this goes as more information comes in before making a judgment on it.

But if you are moving from the city to the country, like I said, anywhere within a mile of livestock, you have to make sure that your dogs are under control. Otherwise there is going to be a tragedy.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:10 PM

204. Blame the dog owners -

- not the sheep owner. It is their responsibility to keep the dogs on their own property. Sheep are an investment and a business and there is no room on a farm for dogs chasing and possibly injuring or killing livestock. Expect any animal threatening livestock to be dispatched quickly on a farm.

Sad situation but can't blame the farmer for protecting his livestock.

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Response to lynne (Reply #204)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:27 PM

216. Read the article. A tree branch broke the fence. The dogs had NEVER been off the property before.

None of your thoughtful analysis fits this situation.

Family member trumps "investment" any day.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #216)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:31 AM

255. The article linked in the OP doesn't reference a fence -

- but I did find a link that does talk about the fence coming down. It also mentions something else -

"Bock also spoke about the neighbor, Gabriel Pilotti, who told police he killed the dogs because they entered an enclosure housing his sheep."

According to this, the sheep weren't just over the other side of the downed fence, they were several houses away. The linked article states that the dogs managed to enter the sheep pen, which puts a different light on the story. The dogs didn't just escape a downed fence - they also forced their way into the sheep enclosure.

PA as well as other states have laws protecting livestock from such situations which is why this guy isn't being charged. Now, if those dogs were not in the sheep enclosure and were separated from the sheep by a fence, then IMO this guy was wrong and should be charged as the dogs weren't a threat to the sheep. If it's true that the dogs got into the sheep pen, then this guy was within his rights to dispatch them. No warning shots needed as that just scares them off and allows them to come back later.

A sad situation but not an unusual one for farming/rural communities.

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/02/21/news/doc512640f077e83398311935.txt?viewmode=fullstory

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Response to lynne (Reply #204)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 03:02 PM

314. On the Farm

I live on we call the trespassing animal's owner and say, Hey, your _____ is over here, and they come and get it. Shooting pets? We don't do that. One time we found a horse. I guess we could have shot it (if we had a gun) because we have horses and this strange horse might have had a disease or something, but we went around to all the places near us we didn't know who looked like they might have a horse to see if they were missing a horse. I suppose it wasn't the macho thing to do, but hey, we're girls. It's called being civilized.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:15 PM

208. My dog ran into one of those kind of fuckwits when I was 5. Said he had chickens. Didn't.

30 days in Yavapai county jail. Not for killing my dog, but for shooting a firearm inside the city limits. He didn't kill Fritz by shooting him, he was suffering so badly we had to put him down. Poor guy layed on the patio like that until we discovered him. There were no fenced yards back in the day in that county.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #208)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:30 AM

254. So sorry

I can't even imagine how your little mind coped with that. My dogs have always meant the world to me.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #254)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:34 AM

257. Bent it for sure.

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Response to lonestarnot (Reply #257)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:41 AM

260. Hugs to you {{{{lonestarnot}}}}

I'm sure the old bastard that shot him reaped his reward somehow. They always do.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:15 PM

209. legal to shoot dogs in your pasture yes, but what an ass if the dogs were catchable and he knew whos

dogs they were.

We have to live with our neighbors and both parties could have settled any damages without killing the pets.

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #209)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:34 PM

221. Sadder still, from the time the dogs got out through a broken fence till...

time they were shot was 15 minutes, with their frantic owners looking for them everywhere. When the owner confronted the "farmer" the dickhead said he "shoots first, asks questions later". Then called a neighbor to brag about it.

And this is the fucking lunatic all these people are defending.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #221)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:45 PM

227. It's freaking amazing

the posters going on and on with some fantasy scenario that isn't factual. What a sad, tragic, unnecessary story. And I'm convinced that trigger-happy gun nuts like this woodchuck have been emboldened by the gun apologists. Anything gun, A-OK! No in-between, no compromise.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #227)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:05 AM

236. Un.fucking.believable.

I'm really rather shocked at the ignorance here. Do people just like to post, no matter if it's factual or not? Besides, if I really wanted to get in the weeds, lets talk about how fucking ruinous livestock farming is on the environment. Go farm fucking soy! Although then they'd start shooting Praying Mantises.

Edited for fat finger typo.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #236)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:13 AM

244. SENSIBLE GUN LAWS NOW!!!

I hope these poor sweet animals murder will not be in vain . . . this is really taking off here in SE PA.

I agree, the ignorance is just mind boggling. Dems roll with facts, or so I thought.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Reply #244)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:20 AM

248. Apparently not, Sugar. We're "old school" I guess!

For a few moments I thought I'd wandered into Freeper territory!

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #221)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:40 AM

259. fucking lunatics will always defend fucking lunatics

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:32 PM

219. As a livestock owner and a dog owner, I think the sheep owner had the right to kill the dogs.

The fault lies completely with the dog's owner. It is the LAW for a reason.

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Response to Redford (Reply #219)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:55 PM

232. Read post #226

Go by the facts. The dogs weren't attacking his sheep, read what actually happened.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:33 PM

220. I could NOT have shot those dogs for chasing my sheep.

I might have been able to had they attacked one or more, but for chasing them... not on my fucking life could I have shot them.

I had an Uncle in Idaho who raised sheep and had a beautiful Irish Setter. He lost a few sheep to what he thought was a dog or dogs. He never EVER suspected it was his Setter killing them. When he found out for certain, he didn't hesitate to put the dog down. At the time I was totally freaked out about it, but he calmly explained his reasoning and when he was done, I pretty much understood that once the dog had started killing the sheep, there as no way to stop it.

Maybe he should have done what Joe Biden suggested... pointed a 12 gauge in a random direction and pulled the trigger a couple of times.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:44 PM

226. y'all aren't reading the information

Last edited Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:21 AM - Edit history (1)

about this particular story. This wasn't a sheep ranch.

The guy shot one dog in the head that was standing there looking at him. The other one tried to run away and was cowering against the fence when he shot it. Then he called his buddy to brag that he got two dogs with just two shots.

They weren't chasing the sheep, they weren't inducing any abortions or heart attacks. The first one was looking at him and the second one was trying to get away from him.

The police asked him if the dogs growled or showed their teeth, he said no. They asked him if he yelled or anything at the dogs, he said no. He was quoting the law and saying he had a right to shoot them the minute the police showed up.

The conjecture is that he let the dogs in to the fence so that he could shoot them.

It sounds like he did lose a sheep and al paca to dogs a year ago, so he was waiting to kill any dog that showed up, and it happened to be these dogs.

This isn't suburban values running against rural values. This isn't somebody not taking care of the dogs. The fallen branch had broken the fence and the dogs were outside 15 minutes before he shot them.

The guy who owned the dogs asked him what he should tell his children about the dogs not coming back and the guy said "that I shoot first."

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Response to d_r (Reply #226)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:13 AM

242. Absolutely spot on. THIS^^^

As I posted up-thread: I was raised with guns from an early age, and what you might call a country outlook; learned gun safety, hunted, still own a couple of guns, although I no longer hunt.

I understand farmers/ranchers need to protect their livestock, with guns if necessary, and I support that.

This case just doesn't seem to fall into that category.

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Response to d_r (Reply #226)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:17 AM

247. THANK YOU!




Jesus Rollerskatin CHRIST I can't believe people are defending him.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #247)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:50 AM

267. +1

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #247)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 04:31 AM

272. I can't believe people are defending this POS either.

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Response to d_r (Reply #226)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 03:20 AM

270. None of that information was in the original article.

The article linked in the original post presented the situation as two loose dogs chasing down sheep on some sort of farm, and the rancher shooting them. That's an entirely justifiable thing to do.

Your information, if correct, is a very different scenario than the one suggested by the original post. If the dogs were not acting aggressively, then he had no legal right to shoot them. You can shoot an animal to DEFEND your pets or livestock, but you can't shoot an animal simply because it wandered onto your property. The guy should be prosecuted.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 11:53 PM

231. PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE YOU DEFEND THE "FARMER"

Last edited Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:45 AM - Edit history (1)

This is the creep you're all defending. You're welcome.


Breaking News
Killing of neighbors’ dogs in sheep pen sparks uproar
02/21/2013 10:05 PM
By Carolyn Davis
INQUIRER STAFF WRITER

To the Bock family of Chester Springs, Bernese mountain dogs Fiona and Argus were happy, loving pets. To neighbor Gabriel Pilotti, they were apparently pests.

And when he found them loose among his sheep last week, he shot them dead.

"It was just really vicious," said Mary Bock. The dogs hadn't touched the sheep.

Pilotti could not be reached for comment.

-snip-

Some time around 11:30 a.m., Pilotti saw the dogs near his sheep, pulled out the 20-gauge single-shot shotgun he legally owned, and fired, said West Vincent Police Chief Michael Swininger. Mary Bock said police told her Pilotti first fatally shot Argus in the face, then shot and killed Fiona.

-snip-

"We have gotten new information and are continuing to investigate," said First Assistant District Attorney Michael G. Noone, adding that a development in the case could come Friday.

Mary Bock said she and her husband were alarmed by what they saw as Pilotti's cavalier attitude. When William Bock asked Pilotti about the incident, his reply, according to the Bocks, was "I shoot first and ask questions later."

He told police he had not even yelled at the dogs to chase them away before shooting.

The Bocks were even more outraged when they got a phone-message recording from a neighbor whom Pilotti had called. On it, Pilotti says, "Hey, Bob, this is Gabe. Two shots, two more dogs."

-snip-


http://mobile.philly.com/news/?wss=%2Fphilly%2Fnews%2Fbreaking%2F&id=192395851&viewAll=y#more

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:22 AM

264. Jail the shooter, change the law, ban the guns

Throw this gun nut under the jail.

Change the law allowing nuts like him to shoot dogs that merely pursue a sheep. They're just playing.

Get rid of guns and this will be a non-issue.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:36 AM

265. My blood is boiling...

At the original story and also some of the responses that see nothing wrong with executing these two family pets who happened to get loose. So much so that I am finding it hard to really respond without just lashing out. This "farmer" had options, and he chose to kill these animals. May karma be as "kind" to him as he was to these dogs and their family.

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #265)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 04:41 AM

273. +1.

May karma be as "kind" to him as he was to these dogs and their family.

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #265)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:20 AM

275. + 2

May karma be as "kind" to him as he was to these dogs and their family.

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #265)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 07:44 PM

325. Same here. This story makes me feel VIOLENT and I don't like feeling that way.

I want to beat the shit out of this guy. I really wouldn't, but thats just my initial urge.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:24 AM

276. The Dogs were just being what they were, herding dogs following their instincts…

The neighbors were just being what they were, irresponsible owners for allowing their dogs to get loose.

The man who shot the dogs was just being who he was, an overreacting man who was scared for the safety of his animals.

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #276)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:52 AM

278. Pilotti let the dogs into his sheep pen so that he could shoot them at close range

He shot the first dog in the face when he called the dog up to him.
He shot the second dog while she was cowering in the corner of the sheep pen.
The guy's a psycho. He knew he was executing his neighbor's pets.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022410618#post145

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 10:52 AM

282. No Surprise That Our Resident Gun Enthusiasts Are Siding With The Farmer. (nt)

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Response to Paladin (Reply #282)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:38 AM

286. NO gun nutz should be a rule here........

 

if u love them, go GTFO.

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Response to Paladin (Reply #282)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:03 PM

328. Certainly not all of them

I'm as avid a shooter as any, and if the circumstances of the shooting are indeed what seems to be coming out (that is, that the guy shot dogs that were just standing there, not actually chasing sheep, and that he may even have lured them into the pen), I think the shooter should be brought up on charges.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)


Response to kooljerk666 (Reply #283)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:42 PM

298. What an erudite post. - nt

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Response to kooljerk666 (Reply #283)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 04:02 PM

321. Rather psychotic, eh? Nt

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:35 PM

296. This guy is an asshole who overreacted to dogs chasing his sheep.

They probably would have come to him if he called them but he chose to kill them and to be an asshole.
I would look for and wait for any legal provocation to eventually retaliate but I'm a mean SOB when innocent animals are hurt or killed.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:45 PM

300. Chesco sheep owner charged in killing of two dogs

"...cruelty to animals and recklessly endangering another person."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022414295

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:03 PM

304. My thoughts

People are claiming the guy isn't a farmer, that he just keeps the sheep as lawn mowers, that he's not legally allowed to farm in that area anyway because it's residential... but all that information is coming from claims - gossip, really, - made in the comments section of a website. The guy's neighbor - the one who turned over the answering machine message to police - has sheep and an alpaca himself, so it does seem like this area would be seen as somewhat rural by someone passing by. It's not as if this is one oddball keeping sheep in a suburban neighborhood.

Second, I don't think the dog owners are bad people but they did have the ultimate responsibility for keeping their dogs safe and secure and they failed in that responsibility. The dogs got out because a branch had fallen and broken part of the fence, and by their own admission that happened several days earlier than the dogs getting out. What if the dogs had escaped and been hit by a car? You couldn't undo that tragedy by arguing that it was the first time the dogs had ever gotten loose and it wasn't right for them to have been hit by a car. It's not good enough to be responsible 99% of the time, you have to do it 100% or be prepared to deal with the consequences. A farmer's right to shoot a livestock-chasing dog is not meant to be punitive but defensive.

If a person in PA (and I looked at the law and it doesn't specify that the person has to be a farmer) has the legal right to shoot a dog pursuing that person's domesticated animals, than the only question is whether these dogs were indeed pursuing this man's livestock. The dogs' owner conjectures that this man purposely allowed the dogs into the sheep enclosure to justify killing them, but that is not a proven fact. It's a fact that the dogs were on the man's property and a fact that they were near his sheep, and I haven't heard anyone claim that he lured them there with a steak or something. The police are looking into this, and I don't think it's going to be swept under the rug if it's found the man simply executed the dogs for being on his property.

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Response to Nine (Reply #304)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:32 PM

309. The DA has now charged Pilotti

"...with cruelty to animals and recklessly endangering another person."

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20130222_Chesco_sheep_owner_charged_in_killing_of_two_dogs.html

It's possible the DA is responding to local outrage about the story, but "West Vincent Township Police, however, concluded the dogs were not pursuing Pilotti's sheep at the time he fired... ."

Be interesting to see how this plays out.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 02:34 PM

310. I've worked on a number of sheep farms and EVERY ONE had signs posted...

...saying stray dogs on the property will be shot. Every single one. It's a common warning that the dog owners should heed.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #310)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:52 PM

334. I know. Why the lack of knowledge here concerning the threat posed to livestock?

Anyone who has been anywhere near sheep farms, chicken coops, horse farms, cattle ranches, etc. knows that packs of dogs -- even family pets that have escaped or were left out without a leash for whatever reason -- pose a real threat to these creatures.

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Response to anneboleyn (Reply #334)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:27 AM

335. You and Mr. Gun are being obtuse

It wasn't a sheep farm. Read the thread before typing out of your ASCII.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 03:12 PM

317. i would file a complaint with whatever local authorities there are in the area

for every minor violation of zoning codes on his property. I mean everything no matter how small.


from what i understand the township requires 10 acres for livestock,he only has 4. file a formal complaint.
keep filing complaints

makes his life a living hell

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Response to rdking647 (Reply #318)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 04:29 PM

323. 2 charges--the state could offer a plea bargain so he doesn't create a circus in a jury trial

That reckless endangering charge is going to F him up.

He was so stupid that he talked to the police without legal counsel. My inlaws from PA have an expression: "sucks to be you".

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Response to rdking647 (Reply #318)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 09:08 PM

329. So this jackass not only shot 2 dogs that weren't actually threatening his sheep...

...he also did so in a manner that endangered occupants of a nearby building. What an utter fuckwit.

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Response to Lizzie Poppet (Reply #329)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:46 PM

342. Yes, but also, in a way, a victim of the pro-gun culture.

It appears now he is "remorseful" over what happened. (Or maybe the remorse is just because he will have to pay a price.)

It would have been better for everyone all around if our culture had impressed on him the RIGHT way to handle such a situation.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 03:23 PM

319. now that hes been charged with reckless endangerment

a conviction means he loses his guns


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Response to rdking647 (Reply #319)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:58 PM

345. Good. Seems like he needs to learn alternative methods to handle these situations.

Clearly he can't be trusted with the responsibility of gun ownership.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 05:59 PM

324. There are some heartless NRA fanatics on here.

And before you accuse me of being a city slicker/suburbanite, I'm not. I work with dairy cows.
This dickhead sounds sadistic. He IS NOT a farmer, he obviously got a thrill by killing these dogs, and if you want to protect your livestock, get a couple of donkeys.

Frankly, I'm beginning to think more types of ammo and firearms need to be banned, AND everyone who wants a firearm needs to be licensed.
I used to enjoy a little target shooting, but the gun violence in this country is insane.
Maybe other countries should advise not traveling here.

I had a minor panic attack at a mall around X-mas over all these massacres.
I was looking around planning what to do if a madman started shooting.

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Response to Sugarcoated (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 08:31 PM

326. I'd make him sorry

I'm sure his murdering these defenseless pets was completely legal, our legal system is shit and you can do anything to pets you please.

I'm emotional where dogs are concerned. This country is such shit in so many ways. More are revealed every day.

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