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Wed Feb 20, 2013, 11:54 AM

More on Tesla v. New York Times: CNBC & CNN reran Broder's test drive.

And both of them made it with miles & juice to spare. Amazing what happens when you give the car a proper charge and don't drive around in circles to deliberately drain the battery, so you can write a hatchet-piece.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/19/1188392/-CNBC-CNN-put-Tesla-to-the-Test-NY-Times-Fails

For those who have not been following the Tesla Model S saga here's a primer. A week or so ago NY Times writer John M. Broder wrote a pretty scathing review called "Stalled Out on Tesla’s Electric Highway" with a devastating photo of the Tesla on a flat bed truck. The news hit like a brick and Tesla's stock price dropped over 3%.

Within hours Elon Musk CEO of Tesla Motors responded. He went on TV and made his case. In particular on CNBC where he went into some detail his concerns over the review and Mr. Broder.

A he said/he said ensued. Even here on Daily Kos.

Well since then other reporters have taken it upon themselves to recreate the DC to Boston trip including CNN Money and CNBC. Results are below

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Reply More on Tesla v. New York Times: CNBC & CNN reran Broder's test drive. (Original post)
backscatter712 Feb 2013 OP
CBGLuthier Feb 2013 #1
KharmaTrain Feb 2013 #7
gateley Feb 2013 #9
tarheelsunc Feb 2013 #2
Scuba Feb 2013 #3
zbdent Feb 2013 #5
KamaAina Feb 2013 #15
JI7 Feb 2013 #35
Blue_Tires Feb 2013 #16
frylock Feb 2013 #21
yardwork Feb 2013 #4
frylock Feb 2013 #22
backscatter712 Feb 2013 #31
godai Feb 2013 #6
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #12
msanthrope Feb 2013 #8
backscatter712 Feb 2013 #10
msanthrope Feb 2013 #11
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #14
FarCenter Feb 2013 #13
backscatter712 Feb 2013 #17
IDemo Feb 2013 #18
Schema Thing Feb 2013 #19
godai Feb 2013 #20
FarCenter Feb 2013 #23
godai Feb 2013 #25
jeff47 Feb 2013 #32
FarCenter Feb 2013 #38
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #36
Motown_Johnny Feb 2013 #24
godai Feb 2013 #26
godai Feb 2013 #27
Motown_Johnny Feb 2013 #29
dmallind Feb 2013 #33
Motown_Johnny Feb 2013 #39
FarCenter Feb 2013 #28
Motown_Johnny Feb 2013 #30
dmallind Feb 2013 #34
Motown_Johnny Feb 2013 #37

Response to backscatter712 (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 11:58 AM

1. The sub-niche of journalism that automobile writing is has always been corrupt.

Considering the power they have to wreck or drive sales is it any surprise.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:20 PM

7. We Called It "Vanity" Journalism...

...specialty articles, sections, supplements and radio and TV shows that are meant to attract bucks from the big corporates...in this case the automobile companies and suppliers. It's the same with computers, sporting equipment, fashions, record reviews...tailored to stroke the egos and hope to shake a couple sheckles loose. Any threat to the big guys or the status quo almost always are attacked or ignored.

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Response to KharmaTrain (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:28 PM

9. Oh! That makes sense! I didn't understand why this guy made the Model S sound like

it was fraught with perils, but I should have known -- it's always the money, isn't it? Thanks!

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Response to backscatter712 (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:01 PM

2. Broder SHOULD lose his job, but probably won't

It's plain as day that he operated the vehicle incorrectly and tried to make Tesla look bad. It's a good thing they kept telemetry data to expose this fraud for the anti-electric hack that he is. CNBC and CNN being able to successfully run the same test using proper procedures is even more evidence of the journalistic fraud he committed.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:04 PM

3. +1

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:16 PM

5. Remember how nutjobs went after NBC for "staging" an accident?

I also remember a lot of people calling for heads because "normal people don't make j-curves in a Jeep" ...

But since Broder is a stooge ... he's save, employment-wise.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:55 PM

15. And the Judith Miller Award goes to... David Broder!

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 05:42 PM

35. this is John Broder, David Broder died a couple years ago

pretty sure there is no relation.

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:04 PM

16. I think he will now...

At first the NYT brass backed him, now they're hanging him out to dry...

And while I realize nothing will be as precise as real-time telemetry, Broder's driving notes were shockingly sloppy and it's looking more and more like he 'staged' the battery failure to fit his narrative...

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Response to tarheelsunc (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:31 PM

21. yep. he has ZERO credibility..

the NYT retains him at their own peril, because I won't believe another word that hack ever types.

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Response to backscatter712 (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:11 PM

4. I read that Broder has ties to the oil and gas industry. Is this correct?

Was he paid to write the hatchet piece about the Tesla?

It's interesting that the car's namesake - the original Tesla - was also slandered and destroyed by the energy industry in his own time.

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Response to yardwork (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:32 PM

22. ooooooh! good catch!

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Response to yardwork (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 04:42 PM

31. I wouldn't be surprised.

Anyone have a link?

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Response to backscatter712 (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:19 PM

6. Broder was ignorant to not realize everything was tracked.

Musk: “Cruise control was never set to 54 m.p.h. as claimed in the article, nor did he limp along at 45 m.p.h. Broder in fact drove at speeds from 65 m.p.h. to 81 m.p.h. for a majority of the trip, and at an average cabin temperature setting of 72 F.”

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/that-tesla-data-what-it-says-and-what-it-doesnt/


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

EVs are here to stay, this time. Tesla is developing a lower cost model for 1-2 years from now. Part of Broder's test drive started at 0 degrees, with the car parked outside. Batteries performance is influenced by temperature. Heating the interior is a big battery draw also.

No doubt, range anxiety is an issue with EVs but the Tesla S pretty much removes that with up to 300 mile range. I have a Nissan Leaf, used for local travel. I've gone 65 miles one way, with a 5 hour (Level 2) charge at the other end, while I visited friends. Couldn't be happier with the leaf.

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Response to godai (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:39 PM

12. If I could put the EV charger in the condo

I would consider that for the city vehicle.

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Response to backscatter712 (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:27 PM

8. Tesla should sue. nt

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:30 PM

10. Considering all the hard data the car collected that directly contradicted Broder's claims,

I think Tesla may have enough evidence to sue Broder and the New York Times for libel, and win.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:35 PM

11. Exactly--this isn't a case of journalistic interpretation, or differing viewpoints

but cold, hard fact backed up by computer logs.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:48 PM

14. And they should do just that

 

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Response to backscatter712 (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:42 PM

13. It still seems limiting

First, driving 60-65 on I-95 is not what I'd typically do. Most of it is posted 65, but traffic moves at 70+.

CNN didn't take the NJTP, Washington Bridge route -- they took a longer route to avoid NYC traffic, almost certainly the GSP, Tappan Zee route. Once you are at the Tappan Zee, going back to I-95 to get to Milford, CT is suboptimal. Much better to take the Sawmill to I-684, to I-84, possibly using I-691 and I-91 and the Charter Oak Bridge to avoid going through Hartford. But there isn't a charger on this route.

45 minutes to an hour at a rest stop seems long. A restroom break and fast food don't take that long.

And if the Tesla's become more popular, what are the odds that the supercharger parking slots will be full when you arrive at the rest stop?

Lastly, these later trips were taken in quite a bit warmer weather. The comparison would have been better if they had driven at night when the temperatures were similar.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:20 PM

17. We're used to the limitations of gas powered cars.

Our infrastructure is built around them.

When electric cars become popular, there will be chargers at every corner gas station.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:25 PM

18. Buyers need to take expected usage into mind

If I live in deep snow country, I'm likely not going to buy a Honda Fit. Likewise, if my commute and/or other daily driving exceeds the capabilities of an electric vehicle, I'll opt for a hybrid or other energy-efficient vehicle.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:35 PM

19. :shock: :horror: LIMITS!!!!! Holy God, LIMITS!!!!

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:23 PM

20. Yes, however...enjoy paying $5 a gallon for gas.

EVs are not exact substitutes for ICE cars. But, most trips won't be anywhere near 300 miles and you would recharge overnight at home. Plug the car in just like you plug in your cellphone.

You point out valid issues with EVs but they work for a lot of people, especially in the small countries of Europe.

BTW, about $19k for a 2013 Leaf. 100 mile charge costs maybe $3.

edit - Tesla owners charge free at Tesla Superchargers.

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Response to godai (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:40 PM

23. I'm not sure why a plug-in hybrid isn't superior to an all-electric

You get the benefits of plugging in at home and using electricity for all your short commutes and errands, while preserving the flexibility on longer trips. The ICE motor and generator do incur a weight penalty, but so do the extra batteries needed to get a 200+ mile range.

Overnight recharging of the hybrid is easily done on a 220 volt, 30 amp circuit as would be used for an electric clothes dryer or electric range.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #23)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:55 PM

25. Fine, but hybrids retain all the ICE issues.

Engine maintenance and repairs, $5 a gallon gas, catalytic convertor and exhaust (repairs), 1000's more parts to wear out. But, plug in hybrids work on battery only, as you say, for short trips. No range anxiety. That's the only advantage that I see.

I charge my Leaf on 110 V, overnight.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #23)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 05:18 PM

32. Cost, weight, complexity

Two engines add a lot to cost, weight and complexity of the vehicle - a 10+ gallon tank of gas plus an engine with enough power to drive the vehicle is a lot more weight than the larger battery pack. I'm still puzzled why hybrids drive the wheels with the ICE instead of using the ICE to turn a generator like diesel locomotives do. Doing that would let them use a much smaller and more efficient ICE.

Anyway, full electric isn't going to work for everyone. But a BMW Z4 doesn't work for everyone either.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 06:51 PM

38. Yes, I'd think that having the ICE only run the generator would be the way to go

You could then use the ICE at constant rpm and make it very efficient and well matched to the generator. And there is no complicated transmission like the Hybrids use.

You could have the driver select "short trip" and not engage the ICE. Or the driver could select "long trip" and the ICE would start up as soon as the battery dropped to 80% or so. That way the ICE could run continuously and use the battery to buffer the engine from high power demands for hills, high-speed, passing, etc.

I think that is the way that the GE hybrid diesel electric locomotives with their new battery technology work.

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #23)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 06:17 PM

36. Drive them for what they are meant

I would not, in the wildest dreams, take the Honda hybrid to the fire line...let alone an all EV vehicle. There are many reasons for that...

But to the supermarket, or even work for hubby...more than good enough.

I expect to see hybrids join the fire dept in 10 years or so though.

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Response to godai (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:53 PM

24. Got a link for that $19K number? I see it starting at $28,800

You can only get to 18,800 if you include all the possible tax incentives and live in California.

*Edit to add, the EV Focus and Volt both qualify for tax credits also, this post is misleading the way it is phrased. The starting price of ~39,000 should be compared to the 28,800 number, not the 18,800.*

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15/nissan-leaf-japanese-auto_n_2478185.html

^snip^

The 2013 Leaf will start at $28,800, which is $6,000 lower than the previous model, company executives said Monday at the Detroit auto show. When combined with the federal electric-vehicle tax credit of $7,500 and other state and local tax incentives, the price could fall as low as $18,800 in California. That would make it comparable to gas-powered and hybrid cars of its size like the Toyota Prius. It would also be far lower than the electric Ford Focus or Chevrolet Volt, which both start around $39,000.





I think they had no choice but to drop the price. The EV Focus is (IMO) an nicer vehicle. If Ford ever matches the price of the Leaf on this vehicle then the Leaf will go the way of the Edsel. One of the main problems is that they put the charging port in the center of the front grill. Every other vehicle with a plug that I have looked at (and I have tried to look at them all) have the port on the side. If you pull into your garage and try to plug it in you will need to crawl around in front of the car, between the back wall of your garage and the car. Then to unplug it you need to do the same thing.


I love EVs, honestly.. I Love Them! The Leaf was revolutionary and I need to give Nissan some credit for making that leap. Unfortunately The Leaf needs serious improvements to stay competitive. I think that in the near future we are going to see hybrids like the Volt and the new Fusion Energi and C-Max Energi be more popular. The infrastructure does not exist for pure EVs right now. Unless you want to keep one vehicle for short trips and another for longer ones a pure Electric does not fit into most people's lifestyles as of yet.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:57 PM

26. That's of course, with the tax credits. Can't expect a Leaf for $12k after tax credits! n/t

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 03:00 PM

27. About the Leaf plug...

Works fine in my garage. I easily walk in front of the Leaf..plug is on the wall and cable easily goes from wall to Leaf.

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Response to godai (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 03:06 PM

29. I just wonder why they did that. All other plugs are on the side.


I do like the 360 degree video screens in the car. I think we will see that catching on.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #29)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 05:29 PM

33. I think the reverse - I wonder why they all didn't do that

Not everybody has a side of the garage near the plug that works well. There may be obstacles on that side like stairs or shelves. There may not be a plug outlet on that side. But everybody with a garage can go into it front first, even if they would otherwise prefer to back in, and it gives you much more flexibility on where to plug in or install an EVSE. It would even allow one EVSE to service two cars in the same garage, which side plugs do not. As for crawling around that would take very poor parking or very small garage. The leaf is under 15' long. Garages are normally 20+

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Response to dmallind (Reply #33)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 06:51 PM

39. I think you are just used to the plug being where it is.

I know a couple people who drive Volts, and am even in their garages once in a while. Having the plug on the side is very easy to deal with.

These people have kids so their garages are pretty full of bikes and toys, besides lawnmowers and other garden needs.

I suppose it is possible to arrange things so that you can get to the front of the car easily but it seems like a hassle. Having it near the driver's door makes the most sense to me.

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 03:06 PM

28. Despite selling 50k Leafs worldwide, Nissan CEO scales back sales expecations

Nissan recently hit the 50,000 global sales mark for the Leaf electric car, and with the obstacles the car has faced, that’s quite a big number. Nissan-Renault boss, Carlos Ghosn, is even saying that sales of pure electric cars could become 10 percent of the markets where the Leaf is sold by 2020. Since the Leaf is the most popular pure electric car in the world, you would expect Ghosn to know what he’s talking about. But this hasn’t always been his position. Back in 2009, Ghosn said that this 10 percent would be a global figure, and that this would mean upward of six million pure electrics on the road by 2019. That figure now seems unlikely, and his amendment, as told to the French news outlet La Tribune, will make for a total number much lower than his original estimate.


Read more: http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/despite-selling-50k-leafs-worldwide-nissan-ceo-scales-back-sales-expecations

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Response to FarCenter (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 03:24 PM

30. The Leaf didn't really have any competition for a while there.

All other EVs were more like golf carts than cars.

Now that other vehicles are starting to come online The Leaf needs to improve on what it has been or it is going to be in trouble.


For one thing the new Focus EV gets about 80 miles a charge while The Leaf gets about 72.


Yes, the Leaf is priced much lower this year but this is the first year for the EV Focus. I expect that price to drop.

The rumor is (I live in Detroit) that Ford's marketing scheme is to keep all these high mileage vehicles priced extremely low so that they can meet the required MPG for their fleet. In effect this means that vehicles like the F-150 will be subsidizing the EVs and plug in hybrids.

Nissan is at a disadvantage here. They do have vehicles like The Frontier, The Tundra and The Titan but the sales are not so large as to be able to subsidize the price of The Leaf to any large extent.


http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2012/12/november-2012-top-15-pickup-truck-sales.html

^snips^

Ford F-Series +11.6% November 2012 56,299 +17.9%
576,529

Nissan Frontier +12.3% November 2012 3,882 -10.2%
51,747

Nissan Titan +0.7% November 2012 1,750 -18.5%
19,738

Ford Ranger * -70.0% November 2012 28 -99.6%
19,248 (no longer in production but still being sold)

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Response to Motown_Johnny (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 05:35 PM

34. The average daily commute is well within the Leaf's worst case range.

There is a reason cars average 12k a year not 75k. The latter exist, but EVs really do fit into most peoples' actual needs. Just not their perceived ones (no if you have a 90 mile each way commute that does not disprove this - look at average miles driven).

I do have multiple cars (as do most families) but were I a single person with one car, I would still save more than enough from paying 3c a mile instead of 15 or so, plus oil changes etc, for my normal usage to rent a very nice car undeed the few times I need to go beyond Leaf range (after a a year with the Leaf I have gone beyond its range just three times - and all three were for fun rather than need).

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Response to dmallind (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 06:46 PM

37. I agree it is fine for everyday needs

and if you can always know ahead of time then renting a car for longer trips is an option.

I am a big EV fan but I do recognize their limitations. I think that in the short term, until the infrastructure for EVs catches up, that plug in hybrids are going to be more popular.

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