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Tue Feb 19, 2013, 03:38 PM

'Checking out at the store,

the young cashier suggested to the much older woman, that she should bring her own grocery bags because plastic bags weren't good for the environment.

The woman apologized and explained, "We didn't have this 'green thing' back in my earlier days."

The young clerk responded, "That's our problem today. Your generation did not care enough to save our environment for future generations."

She was right -- our generation didn't have the 'green thing' in its day.

Back then, we returned milk bottles, soda bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles over and over. So they really were recycled.

But we didn't have the "green thing" back in our day.

Grocery

stores bagged our groceries in brown paper bags, that we reused for numerous things, most memorable besides household garbage bags, was the use of brown paper bags as book covers for our schoolbooks. This was to ensure that public property, (the books provided for our use by the school) was not defaced by our scribbling. Then we were able to personalize our books on the brown paper bags.

But too bad we didn't do the "green thing" back then.

We walked up stairs, because we didn't have an escalator in every store and office building. We walked to the grocery store and didn't climb into a 300-horsepower machine every time we had to go two blocks.

But she was right. We didn't have the "green thing" in our day.

Back then, we washed the baby's diapers because we

didn't have the throwaway kind. We dried clothes on a line, not in an energy-gobbling machine burning
up 220 volts -- wind and solar power really did dry our clothes back in our early days. Kids got hand-me-down clothes from their brothers or sisters, not always brand-new clothing.

But that young lady is right; we didn't have the "green thing" back in our day.

Back then, we had one TV, or radio, in the house -- not a TV in every room. And the TV had a small screen the size of a handkerchief (remember them?), not a screen the size of the state of Montana . In the kitchen, we blended and stirred by hand because we didn't have electric machines to do everything for us. When we packaged a fragile item to send in the mail, we used wadded up old newspapers to cushion it, not styrofoam or plastic bubble wrap. Back then, we didn't fire up an engine and burn gasoline just to cut the lawn. We used a push mower that ran on human power. We

exercised by working so we didn't need to go to a health club to run on treadmills that operate on electricity.

But she's right; we didn't have the "green thing" back then.

We drank from a fountain when we were thirsty instead of using a cup or a plastic bottle every time we had a drink of water. We refilled writing pens with ink instead of buying a new pen, and we replaced the razor blades in a razor instead of throwing away the whole razor just because the blade got dull.

But we didn't have the "green thing" back then.

Back then, people took the streetcar or a bus and kids rode their bikes to school or walked instead of turning their moms into a 24-hour taxi service in the family's $45,000 SUV or van, which cost what a whole house did before the "green thing." We had one electrical outlet in a room, not an entire bank of sockets to power a dozen appliances. And we didn't need a computerized gadget to receive a signal

beamed from
satellites 23,000 miles out in space in order to find the nearest burger joint.

But isn't it sad that the current generation laments how wasteful we old folks were just because we didn't have the "green thing" back then?

Please forward this on to another selfish old person who needs a lesson in conservation from a smartass young person...

We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off...especially from a smartass who can't make change without the cash register telling them how much.
The end !'

222 replies, 15676 views

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Reply 'Checking out at the store, (Original post)
elleng Feb 2013 OP
silverweb Feb 2013 #1
lobezen Feb 2013 #85
GiaGiovanni Feb 2013 #105
Raksha Feb 2013 #128
randr Feb 2013 #184
antigone382 Feb 2013 #2
TDale313 Feb 2013 #6
winter is coming Feb 2013 #20
HERVEPA Feb 2013 #9
HughBeaumont Feb 2013 #12
GiaGiovanni Feb 2013 #103
snort Feb 2013 #167
snooper2 Feb 2013 #193
Raksha Feb 2013 #131
marions ghost Feb 2013 #202
HughBeaumont Feb 2013 #209
marions ghost Feb 2013 #211
backtoblue Feb 2013 #19
elleng Feb 2013 #24
Phentex Feb 2013 #32
Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #33
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #35
elleng Feb 2013 #36
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #39
TDale313 Feb 2013 #38
antigone382 Feb 2013 #71
elleng Feb 2013 #74
druidity33 Feb 2013 #182
Art_from_Ark Feb 2013 #221
TDale313 Feb 2013 #25
backtoblue Feb 2013 #44
Blanks Feb 2013 #62
obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #42
GiaGiovanni Feb 2013 #101
progressoid Feb 2013 #59
backtoblue Feb 2013 #63
pengillian101 Feb 2013 #220
GiaGiovanni Feb 2013 #104
antigone382 Feb 2013 #107
GiaGiovanni Feb 2013 #109
progressoid Feb 2013 #133
llmart Feb 2013 #139
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jeff47 Feb 2013 #76
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elleng Feb 2013 #102
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Hissyspit Feb 2013 #136
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HiPointDem Feb 2013 #132
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love_katz Feb 2013 #161
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bike man Feb 2013 #172
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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 03:46 PM

1. One change I'd make.

It's wrong to refer to "selfish old people," who are probably not aware of the corporate-driven profit motive in disposables.

It would be better to point out to older generations that they were doing it right back then -- until corporations realized they could make more money producing disposables that need constant replacing.

Put the blame where it belongs -- on profit seekers, not elderly customers who really had no choice in the matter.

Otherwise, the examples of "old-time green thing" are excellent.

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Response to silverweb (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:21 PM

85. My thoughts EXACTLY!

and while we're at it enough with the generational warfare! I find it refreshing that so many people have noticed it and called it out for what it is, nonsense. The value of the message gets totally lost when one presents it in such a preachy & combative tone.

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Response to silverweb (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:20 PM

105. +100

 

Great points

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Response to silverweb (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:01 PM

128. Not aware of the profit motive in disposables? Really?

Some of us allegedly "selfish old people" are only too aware that to the corporatocracy, WE are "disposables"! So those of us with half a brain are acutely aware of it and don't need convincing.

I have an online friend about my age, a native Southerner, who still uses cloth napkins even for everyday meals. I guess that's what her mother did, and my friend saw no reason to change. She does however have a washer and dryer and can wash them whenever they need it.

As for me--I admit to using paper napkins, because that's what my mother did.

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Response to silverweb (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:38 AM

184. People buy water in plastic bottles

No one is forcing it on us.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 03:52 PM

2. I really don't understand the point of this oft-repeated e-mail forward.

The first time I ever saw it, it was spread around by one of the biggest right wingers I know, a young guy himself, who had found an ice way to dismiss all modern environmental activists as "smartass young people." The reality is, the young environmentalists I know acknowledge quite readily that older generations did things in a more ecologically sane way, and are eager to learn those skills. I don't know any young person who thinks our environmental crises are due to older ladies buying groceries. It is due to an entire ideology of endless growth and the conception of a planet that is capable of providing endless resources and absorbing endless amounts of waste

At the same time, there are problems in our cultural perspective as far as the supremacy of consumption in our value system, and that's something that young people didn't create even if we haven't rejected it. It came before us and generations before us bought into it, so it is up to those generations to acknowledge it as much as anyone else.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 03:59 PM

6. +1

I find this pretty unproductive. Generational warfare that tries to pit different segments that care about the environment against each other. And not surprised that rwers would love this.

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:13 PM

20. +1. The minute the generational warfare crap starts up, I check out. n/t

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:02 PM

9. Very well stated.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:04 PM

12. It's divide-and-conquer crap.

I mean, I can easily come back with this and say "Riiiiiiiiiight, praise be the "Boomers" and the "Greatest" and all that. By the way, who was it that put 32 straight years of Republicans in the White House and Congress in the 80s-00s, many of whom handed the USA keys to the environment-destroying wealthy and the ever-wasteful MIC? Who elected and re-elected Reagan, giving him a 49-state majority? Can you explain the rationale behind the Bushes, especially his obviously unqualified and incompetent son? Was the Carter/Clinton hatred worth it? Sure wasn't MY 'smug' ass who did that." . . . . but I won't.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:18 PM

103. I don't think so. I think there's genuine annoyance there and for a good reason.

 

If you're a 70 or 80-year-old woman who used to hang your clothes on the line out back, bring your Coke bottles back to the gas station to be reused, leave your empty milk bottles on the step for the milkman (which he took and reused after leaving you two new half gallons in glass), and walked to church 5 or 6 blocks away on a Sunday, then you might resent this little girl who incessantly texts on her cell phone, relies on a car to get everywhere, and drinks water out of lots of (petroleum-based) plastic bottles.

I think the younger generation really needs to find out how their grandparents and great-grandparents lived. If they could go back to that low use of petroleum based energy and products, THAT would be green.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #103)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:40 AM

167. +1

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #103)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 11:38 AM

193. All while dumping toxic chemicals in the back yard LOL

Dump the rest of that lye down the drain in the street honey!

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:13 PM

131. Well, it definitely wasn't me, even if I am an early-vintage Baby Boomer.

Re "By the way, who was it that put 32 straight years of Republicans in the White House and Congress in the 80s-00s, many of whom handed the USA keys to the environment-destroying wealthy and the ever-wasteful MIC?"

I'm also from a family of blue-collar Jewish supporters of organized labor, an unreconstructed hippie myself and an early opponent of the Vietnm war. I am proud to say that I'm one of the people Nixon and Reagan loved to hate, and I never voted for either one of 'em.

All Baby Boomers were not created equal, so please don't generalize about us.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:53 PM

202. Bush 43

was not elected.

Important point.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #202)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:12 PM

209. Enough non-thinking idiots voted for him so that the theft could commence.

And yes, I have more than a few relatives in the "non-thinking idiot" category on that one.

2000 and 2004, in any civilized industrial nation, should have been blowout laughers. How anyone thought this dry drunk know-nothing was the Second Coming of St. Ronnie is beyond my comprehension. He wasn't even the Second Coming of Poppy, for chrissakes.

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Response to HughBeaumont (Reply #209)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:21 PM

211. Corruption won

I stand my ground. Lots of elections are won by a small margin that election thieves know just how to manipulate.

The Boomers as a whole do not deserve the blame for the Selection of Dumbya. Sorry.


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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:11 PM

19. I think the point is that younger folks can learn how to do "green" things from their elders.

Environmental problems are definitely multi-generational, so why not share this information with the younger crowd? How many 10 year olds know that there is a lawn mower that doesn't use gas, fits into most spaces, and is kinda fun to use? I'm just afraid that our knowledge of how to do things without dependency on electricity, etc. is being lost.

Teach skills and pass them on because it's not part of our educational system anymore.

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Response to backtoblue (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:20 PM

24. Thanks, backtoblue.

Of COURSE the point is younger folks can learn a few things. HOPE that will include DUers. Must say I'm not happy with all the negativity in replies here!

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Response to elleng (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:34 PM

32. I think if your original had stated it was a chain email...

you may have had a different response.

I think the real point is that there's good and bad lifestyle choices in EVERY generation. One isn't better than another. Seat belts save lives. Do we want to go back to a time when they weren't available? Toilets are low flush now. Washers are high efficiency, etc.

I think it's the tone of the email that emits negativity.

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Response to elleng (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:35 PM

33. "especially from a smartass who can't make change"... perhaps the negative replies are in response

to a negative post.

"We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off...especially from a smartass who can't make change without the cash register telling them how much."

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Response to elleng (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:35 PM

35. It's DU, elleng...

the nit-pickers will always make their presence known.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #35)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:37 PM

36. THANKS, Daughter!

That DOES help!!!

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Response to elleng (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:39 PM

39. You're welcome...

What are friends for?

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Response to elleng (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:39 PM

38. I'm sorry if my responses

Were kinda harsh, and there are definitely things about the original post that are true. I just think the kind of "us vs them" tone the story takes tends to shut down actual productive conversation. Ymmv.

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Response to elleng (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:00 PM

71. I'm sorry if I came off as negative towards you, elleng

I admit that my interpretation of the story might be colored by the fact that I first saw it posted by a RWer on facebook who was trying to discredit people like me.

I do agree with others though, that the story itself is worded quite negatively. Surely you can understand that as a young person who cares quite a bit about environmental problems and believes that major cultural and economic changes are necessary to address those problems, I balk a bit at perceiving myself described as a "young smartass."

I have had the good fortune of learning a lot of traditional skills from older people and that is something I value quite highly; I think you and I would agree on most things. I just dislike the way this particular story makes that case. It just strikes me as unnecessarily divisive and combative.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #71)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:04 PM

74. Thanks for the explanation, antigone.

I suspect many miss the in much of the piece, but I may be mistaken.

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Response to elleng (Reply #74)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:42 AM

182. I think the piece asks genuine questions...

but also unfortunately plays the blame game. And yes, older folk have done all those things... but did they have any options? As soon as plastic bottles came around, they adopted them. Same with clothes-dryers and dishwashers. The "I walked 5 miles to school every morning" line my grandpa used to give me always ended with me saying, "Yeah but would you have used the car if you had one?"

I think it all comes down to some of us make conscious choices in our lives to do what we think is best for the environment. Some of us don't think about it. And some of us don't have the luxury of thinking about it. There are of course the people who have thought about it and just don't care... i have contempt for people like that.



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Response to druidity33 (Reply #182)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 12:16 AM

221. I, for one, didn't willingly "adopt" plastic bottles

Essentially they were forced upon us, because plastic is lighter than glass and does not break as easily. But I preferred the returnables, because they were reusable and usually didn't end up in landfills.

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Response to backtoblue (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:21 PM

25. Cause dismissing them all

As smart ass idiots is sure to get them to be receptive to the message...

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Response to TDale313 (Reply #25)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:45 PM

44. Yes, it could be worded softer but come on. It's not generational warfare as some are stating.

It's bringing to light a discussion of sharing information.


Unfortunately, with that comes obstacles and people getting pissed off at semantics.


Maybe you could re-write it less offensively and create something really positive. I hope someone does because there is so much that we can learn from our past generations.

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Response to backtoblue (Reply #44)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:37 PM

62. Good point.

When I first read this on Facebook; I thought that the older person was kind of a bitch.

What's the message here? Old people can be cranky without provocation and other old people will cheer them on.

There is a more positive way of making the same point. It was a conservative 'friend' that posted it on Facebook. I'm as environmentalist as you can get, but that hardly gives me the right to browbeat people who are just trying to do a little good for the environment.

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Response to backtoblue (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:42 PM

42. "The Greatest Geberation" were horrible polluters

Both personally and industrially.

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Response to obamanut2012 (Reply #42)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:11 PM

101. Not true personally. Industrially, yes, but they didn't have much choice about that.

 

Industry did what industry did.

But the way most people actually lived, they used much less fossil fuel.

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Response to backtoblue (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:31 PM

59. I would agree if it didn't have the snarky smartass comment at the end.

this is not an email to teach but to bitch about young wippersnappers.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #59)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:38 PM

63. a few changed words and this could be a great read.

It actually shows that older people don't get the going "green thing". Younger people don't get why their elders are so mean sometimes.

If someone could clean up the wording and turn it into a "let's put our heads together on this", inserting some of the younger folks' initiatives, then this could be a great article to pass on.


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Response to backtoblue (Reply #63)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 10:59 PM

220. +1

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Response to progressoid (Reply #59)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:20 PM

104. And no one on DU every makes a smart ass comment about the older generation?

 

Or wide-sweeping generalizations?

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #104)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:25 PM

107. Sure they do. And it's wrong then, too. n/t

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #107)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:29 PM

109. You've got an interesting OP there.

 

Don't let perceived snark take away from the message, which has validity.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #104)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:16 PM

133. Did I say that?

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #104)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:44 PM

139. Precisely.

How many times do we have to read "Get off my lawn" which we all know is code for old people who are cranky.

I think the older people on DU are much more tolerant of the younger ones than vice versa.

Besides, you never hear philosophers talking about the wisdom of youth

I thought this was just a fun thing for elleng to post in General Discussion, but once again, some DU'ers have to turn everything into a controversy. No wonder the conservatives talk about the left and their political correctness with disdain. Some people on here want to turn everything into a serious issue.

The wisdom of age gives some of us the ability to see what are really important issues to concern ourselves with and what we can have a bit of fun with.

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Response to llmart (Reply #139)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:05 PM

142. I'm glad you wrote that.

 

Thanks!

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Response to backtoblue (Reply #19)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:06 PM

76. From the elders that switched to "disposable everything"?

It's not like disposable diapers and Bic pens were invented for Gen-X or Millenials.

Yes, doing some "green" things from our past is a good idea. But we can't pretend that "elders" have been continuously doing those "green" things the last several decades.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #76)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:27 PM

108. Depends on the age group. It was the late-60s and 70s that really brought "disposables"

 

An example: my great aunt had 5 children, all born in the 1960s. With the first three, she used cloth diapers and breastfed. That's what everyone did. But there was a real change in the late 60s, and when the last two were born, she used Pampers (which was all there was back then in disposables) and fed the babies Similac. This was on the advice of her doctor who told her that disposable diapers produced less diaper rash and discomfort for the baby and that Similac ("formula") was somehow much better for the baby than breast milk. Male doctor, go figure.

At any rate, that generation of young adults in the 1960s/70s was fed a lot of garbage, most of it corporate-backed, that encouraged them to waste and use disposable stuff. They didn't start out that way.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:50 PM

117. It was plastics, recall that famous line

from the movie The Graduate.

Heavy use of plastics started in the late 1960s and thence all the disposable plastic crap...

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Response to Carolina (Reply #117)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 08:03 PM

119. Yes! I had forgotten The Graduate!

 

It was plastics that really started the problem with disposables. Isn't it interesting that those "resuable" bags we are supposed to buy also contain plastic?

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 08:56 PM

127. For diapers. But the email has lots of other disposable products

and things like line-drying laundry. Early 60's parents and older still bought those products.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #127)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:11 PM

143. And the returnable glass bottles for milk and soda, the walking everywhere (especially to school and

 

church), the water out of the tap and not in plastic bottles, the wax paper (and not Ziplock bags), etc, etc, etc,....

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #143)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:44 PM

152. Only when they were younger. They switched along with everyone else. (nt)

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #152)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:16 PM

155. I am a boomer...

and what some of the younger folks may not realize was that we had very little choice about switching to the new disposable stuff. Stores quit carrying the old reusable things. For a while, recyclable bottles went away, and milk delivery ceased.

I can remember quite a bit of kvetching and complaining about plastic 'everything' and the crummy quality of throw-away products. No one asked us what our preferred choice would be on these things.

With that said, I also don't like the 'tone' of these kinds of postings/email forwards, etc. They do seem to have a whiff of generational war, whether intended or not.

I also object VERY strongly to all boomers being to blame for Ronnie Raygun/ Both Bushes/Republican hegemony in general!!!!!!!!!

I voted AGAINST all of them, and quit watching t.v. after Ronnie Raygun 'won' his re-election.

To this day, the only t.v. in my house is an old small portable, which I use only for watching video tapes. I highly recommend to all reading Jerry Mander's book, " Four Arguments For the Elimination of Television." It was relevant back when he wrote it (1977), and is even more relevant now.

Count me as another unrepentant hippie, Earth loving, green warrior.

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Response to love_katz (Reply #155)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:37 PM

160. You are so right--there really was no choice

 

Try to get a glass bottle of milk now. It's a rare thing, usually in a specialty food shop of some kind and often it's goat milk or raw milk only. Ditto soda. Beer still comes in bottles as does wine.

What people forget is that all that plastic is petroleum based. Is it really worth destroying the Gulf of Mexico to have more Tupperware?

The tone of the letter is less important to me than the reality. I remember my grandmother putting clothes on the line and the smell of those clothes when they came in to be folded. I remember the amount of walking they all did; they were much healthier than we were and thinner, even in later life.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #152)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:19 PM

156. The switch occurred in the late 60s and was largely unavoidable

 

The returnable glass bottles became disposable aluminum cans and plastic bottles.
The world got more dangerous (crime became a big deal in the 70s) and kids got driven to school.
Companies started manufacturing lots of packaging, lots of plastic, lots of disposable waste

But I'll tell you, even in the 70s and 80s, electricity use was far less than it is now in middle class homes. TVs were smaller and there was only one in the house, there were few if any personal computers, people didn't have jacuzzi tubs, in floor heating, and towel warmers. No McMansions. No personal cell phones or lap tops with chargers all over the place.

Things really shifted in terms of energy use in the 90s.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #156)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 11:26 AM

192. Minor point, but...

We return bottles and cans where I live, and I'm pretty sure that other states do too. Just not sure how many, and I'm too busy to google, other than to provide this link. http://www.bottlebill.org/legislation/usa/maine.htm

If your state doesn't do this, and you* are concerned about the environment, this would be a good starting point. Call your state legislator and ask if he/she would be willing to sponsor a bill using this, or other state 'bottle bill' laws as the model. It is certainly not the only solution, but every little thing can help.

*I meant you as in anyone, not necessarily you-you.

Edit: Here is a map of states w/bottle bill laws (although the legislation may be of a different name). Found it at my own link.


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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #108)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:41 PM

138. Re: Breastfeeding babies, your time frame is a little bit off.

From the 1940s to the 1960s, bottle-feeding was the norm and was encouraged by pediatricians, except for health-nut parents like my own. But I was very much the exception (I was born in 1946).

By the time I had my own children (1973 and 1978), the younger progressive women were just starting to get back to breast-feeding. Again, I was the exception because it had always been the norm in my family. So there was nothing to get "back" to--we were always too old-country to feed babies any other way.

What was very disturbing to me personally, especially on the issue of breastfeeding, was the tendency of the other young trendoids (sorry, I have to call them that) who were just then rediscovering breastfeeding to turn it into a religion, as they did with pretty much everything. What I mean is that a mother who had to supplement her breast milk with formula for whatever reason was made to feel like a traitor and a failure. It was almost considered a kind of "sin."

That was one of the biggest differences I remember between me and the other young mothers of the 1970s. We all breastfed or tried to, but not all of us turned it into a religion.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #138)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:30 PM

149. It might be a class issue

 

My working class great aunt was breastfeeding. And she had pretty much natural births (plus epidural). I know that "twilight sleep" was popular in the 50s and 60s for the middle classes. My aunt never did any of that. Neither did my mom, who came later. And it wasn't until my great aunt's doctor recommended bottle feeding in 1968 that she did so. That was also when she changed to Pampers.

I think the upper and middle class went first into all the disposable stuff. It was the middle class daughters who made breastfeeding into a religion later. The working classes couldn't afford the fancy stuff and kind of did what they had always done. Now, of course, it's reversed, with the working class women having to use disposable diapers and bottle feeding and upper middle class women using cloth and breastfeeding.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #76)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 08:34 PM

122. Disposable culture really took off circa 1970s-1980s. And the way it happened was that it made

 

it *cheaper* to use disposables than to reuse, and actually 'disappeared' options that had been commonplace before.

Elders didn't 'switch' out of pure choice; they were corralled into switching, for the most part.

I remember when stores stopped taking bottle deposits and disposables came in and how stupid it seemed at the time. Disposable razors were another one that seemed idiotic. and of course, plastic bags and water in plastic bottles.

but it happens little by little and eventually you turn around and that's all there is.

media tells you it's because consumers have 'chosen' it, but it's not really the case. producers have chosen it & structured things so that consumers do what they want.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #122)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 08:54 PM

126. They just responded to market forces.

The companies would have happily produced non-disposable products like razors.....in fact they still do. I've been using them since shortly after I started shaving about 20 years ago. Sure, I'm tossing out a cartridge with blades instead of just a blade, but the blades are also much smaller - probably works out to about the same amount of waste.

Consider what happened with glass bottles - people felt deposit containers were great for saving money. Then they were too much of a pain to return for the small savings so they went away. Then we decided we'd like to encourage recycling, and created new, refundable taxes in order to encourage recycling.

All that came from "the people" and what they wanted. Yes, there were individuals who did not like each step in those trends, but those steps were what most people wanted.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #126)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:12 PM

130. they responded to profit potential. there's more profit on disposables. i was there, and no

 

one was screaming 'give us disposables!" in fact, there was significant resistance to them.

"they were too much of a pain to return"

no. no, they weren't.

Manufacturers stopped bottling in returnables (because it was cheaper for them) & groceries stopped accepting them.

it had not one goddamn thing to do with customers.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #130)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:28 PM

135. It had everything to do with the customers

When customers refuse to buy your product, profits go way down.

Consumers had the choice to demand deposit containers continue. Instead, they decided convenience outweighed it.

And no, buying new bottles cost more. But was far more convenient for the bottlers, grocers and consumers. The switch coincided with bottle prices going down and thinner bottles, so the cost difference no longer outweighed the convenience.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #135)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:38 PM

137. i don't think you were there. even then, the soda market was dominated by a few big players.

 

Last edited Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:34 PM - Edit history (3)

*they* decided. when the biggest sellers went to disposables, the big supermarkets stopped accepting returnables; the low volume on other sodas made it not worth the labor & space cost.

there were some state by state differences, but basically it was coke & pepsi who decided. not customers.

& you might take a look at coke & pepsi's long-standing opposition to bottle deposit legislation, btw. it goes back to the period when they were introducing disposables, & it's one of the reasons some states rescinded their existing deposit laws.

i repeat: it had nothing to do with what customers wanted, it had to do with coke and pepsi's profits.

1989 national survey: a majority of americans favored a national bottle deposit bill: 70% in favor, with 12% no opinion. Only 18% opposed.

http://www.bottlebill.org/about/benefits/polls/nationwide.htm

so much for consumers 'wanting' disposables.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:35 PM

34. However the number one cause of carbon use right now is

A topic that most people refuse to admit is happening.

And which I am forbidden to name on this discussion forum.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #34)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:08 PM

53. You can't mention the use of fossil fuels as the #1 carbon culprit on DU?

When did this happen?

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #53)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:49 PM

116. I am tallking about a process that

Is ongoing 24/7, with about seventy planes per County in the USA doing stuff to our skies.

Several years back, there was a bidding process for such service and it was priced for at least ten billions of dollars for one fleet of 70 planes for One Single County, but it is far more pervasive than one county.

I imagine the black ops protion of our budget (the Federal government's budget) handles it.

I used to try and do my part to save the earth, but when I walk the 1.5 miles to the grocery store, uphill going there, look above me, and see the stuff being sprayed, at a cost of so much money, and knowing that among the other things in the mix (barium, strontium, etc) that jet fuel is added, I get sick thinking about it.

And I have no other explanation for aerial activity my husband and i charted the entire summer of 2009. While sitting on the banks of Clear Lake (The Lake,) the two of us would watch a plane skimming over the ridges of foothills of ClearLake (the California City,) then going from that altitude of around 4.700 feet clear up to 15 to 20K feet, then back down to around 4,400 feet, all in the space of nine to eleven miles of territory that the plane covered. I live way out in the country - no airports near me. And flying like that is a criminal charge for any pilot attempting it, except during emergencies, and it totally forbidden by the military over residential areas with farmers and tracts of housing below them. Yet I would chart some six to eight planes doing this is a six hour period of time.




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Response to truedelphi (Reply #116)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:57 PM

118. I know Clearlake, the highlands, the special sulfurous hot springs out in the middle of the lake.

Good memories of that.

From what I've read, these flights might be doing more to cool the earth than to warm it.

Have you seen the PBS NOVA show "Dimming the Sun"?

It suggests that particulates in the atmosphere actually lessen the impact of GHGs.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/dimm-nf.html

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:41 PM

41. +1

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)


Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:26 PM

58. It was the current 80 year olds who started "disposable everything"

Go look at 1950s "housewife of tomorrow" pitches sometime. Paper plates, paper napkins, and plastic cutlery were going to be the salvation of the American housewife. TV dinners were going to replace having to wash pots and pans. They fell for it, their boomer generation kids suffered through it, and it's been downhill ever since.

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Response to starroute (Reply #58)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:33 PM

111. In a sense, but at the same time, that was specifically marketed to them.

Consumerism has unfolded and expanded correspondent with the industrial revolution itself, most intensely since around the late 1800's. You can't blame any one generation; the culture has changed gradually to accommodate an economic system based on endless growth--and ignoring the attendant endless resource depletion and waste that accompanies such growth. We have been profoundly enculturated for quite a long time to think positively about the acquisition of goods and technology to "make life better." The fact that these developments have made life worse for a majority of the world's population, and stand to make it worse for all future generations, is so foreign to our understanding of what is good and valuable that processing it is difficult.

This is kind of long winded and wandering. My main point is that I think both the old woman and the young woman in the story are located in an increasingly destructive and consumptive culture. Both of them must find their way out of it using that which is within their frame of reference. My suspicion is they would each have something to teach each other.

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Response to starroute (Reply #58)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:42 PM

114. Actually, they didn't start it: they were sold it.

 

And not everyone had the money or interest in buying in. My grandmother would not use paper plates. She also washed her dishes by hand.

The real shift came in the late 60s and 70s when the use of plastic containers rose. In the 1960s, if you wanted a bottle of coke, you got a glass bottle and your returned it to be cleaned. To make sure you returned the bottle, they'd make you pay a "deposit"--you'd pay five or ten cents for the bottle of Coke plus an extra cent or two for "deposit". When you returned the bottle, you got your deposit back and the distributor took the collected all the bottles for cleaning.

In the 70s, you got aluminum cans that proudly declared "No Deposit, No Return" , meaning that you could just throw them out. Finally, in the 80s, you got your plastic 2-litre.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:22 PM

86. +1

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:48 PM

92. That was my impression

I'd be really surprised if this wasn't written by a reich-winger to pass around to fellow teapartiers.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:10 PM

100. The point: that our grandparents' and great-grandparents' generation actually used less fossil fuel

 

If you ever look at a house from the early to mid twentieth century that has not been renovated, you will find an electrical system that handles a much smaller amount of electricity than today's homes. This is because the number of electrical appliances was low and the power they needed was nowhere near what is needed now. Some friends of mine purchased an unrenovated house like this and had to spend 20K to update the electrical system to handle all their fun gadgets and energy sucking hot tub. The house also did not have central air, it had an old gas furnace. They had to install a/c and ceiling fans. All that takes more energy.

The letter in the OP has a point. Plastic bags (petroleum-derived) are relatively new. It was always paper bags in the old days, and they were reusable for many things. They never went to waste. Plastic bags from the grocery store are actually flimsier and are often unusable, which is why they end up in the garbage. But they were cheaper for the stores. The crappy reusable bags you now have to buy (made in China) for your groceries actually are full of e-coli and other bacteria, unless you launder them every time you use them. Can you say, "waste of energy"?

My mom's generation started by doing laundry on lines--and no fabric softener because they smelled of the breezes blowing down the alley. They were sold the idea of electric or gas driers as a labor saving device--no clothespins--but we went from human labor to petroleum waste.

My mom's generation walked everywhere. No one took cars to places close by. My mom walked distances of miles: to school, to the library. And if it was too far, she took public transportation. But her own kids got used to being driven around everywhere because that's what all the moms did. What a waste of gas.

My mom's generation did use the glass bottles of Coke that you returned to the gas station so they could be reused. The milk was the same way: it was delivered to your front step (usually you had a metal box to hold the two half gallons). When you finished, you left the empty bottles in the metal box and the milkman picked them up and replaced them with new bottles of milk. You didn't have to worry about BHA in petroleum-derived plastic.

I think it's important to remember that this "green" movement is largely a reaction of the last 40 years of abuse of the planet. The corporations were already destroying things--hence, the first Earth Day--but it has been since the 1970s that our own personal hoggish use of energy has greatly increased. Ironic, isn't it. In the 1960s, there weren't McMansions, jacuzzi tubs in the bathroom, computers (and all their peripherals), huge chef's kitchens with oversized appliances, bathrooms with in floor heating and towel warmers, kitchen counters with $1,000 espresso machines, etc. Back in the 60s, some families lived with only one car. If mom (at home) could walk everywhere, dad took the car to work. Or, if mom needed the car, dad took public, walked or got a regular ride with someone. My mom's dad took public transport to work. Her friend's dad walked.

It was a different world. If we lived more like my grandparent's generation did, we would be saving a ton of energy and we wouldn't need the gym.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 08:28 PM

121. i think though that younger people may not realize the degree to which recycle/reuse was built

 

into everyday life in the not-so-distant past. so for that, it's useful.

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:21 PM

147. Yes, I've seen this on Facebook about a dozen times

:yawn:

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Response to antigone382 (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:24 AM

181. Yeah, the entire premise is false

For one thing, although I know it's probably supposed to be fictional, the opening part with the sanctimonious "young cashier" arrogantly chastising the older lady just doesn't ring true even on a metaphorical level unless they're in a food co-op in Berkeley or something.

Also, the older lady never had the "green thing" in her day? How old is she? It was only 40 years ago that the ecology movement arose in response to polluted lakes catching on fire and all the mountains of garbage being generated by our disposible culture.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 03:52 PM

3. You can't find a hankerchief anymore.

Used to be sold at Long's and, really, any drug store or men's store.

I finally found some at Penney's.

K/R for a real good read, one for multiple generations.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 03:54 PM

5. Thanks, SKP.

YOU understand!
Dad used handkerchiefs.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:01 PM

7. Bandanas work fine for the purpose though.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:22 PM

26. I find them with no problem. My husband and kids all use them...

wouldn't be caught carrying a tissue and all of them tend to have allergies.

Any department store has them. Amazon has them. Target. etc.

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Response to Phentex (Reply #26)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:29 PM

30. It might be a regional thing. I'm in Northern California.

Called every drug store and many department stores before finding them.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:02 PM

49. Well you could have just called me!

Might be easier for me to send them to you - ha!



PS. It's one of the things I HATE folding! I don't know why. I just like to throw them back in the laundry basket and get them to fold them if I can help it.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:08 PM

206. My dad still has a few of them

But he has not found any to buy in a long time, just washes the ones he has. I don't think he has gotten any news ones since mom died (2004) as she was always the one that bought them for him (for christmas usually).

I know he looked a few years back because he complained that no one had them (and by no one he means the 3 places he usually shops that mom used to shop at for such things, but he did find a ton of socks he liked).

Side story about JC Penney's: Dad went there when I was a kid to buy a belt (at the outlet/catalog store here). I had wanted a chess playing game, the electronic kind, and we looked at one at sears but was too expensive (130 I think back in like 1982 give or take). He found one at penney's while looking around, in a damaged box half off - better than the one I wanted. He bought that, some other stuff on sale, got home all excited and then realized...he forgot to buy a belt

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 03:53 PM

4. Terrific post!

If you didn't actually have the time to tell this little twit what you just typed, print it out and take it to her next time you're in the store.

I can relate to just about everything you said in your post and I'm 63. We never had two cars in our family EVER. We didn't even get individual Christmas gifts each year because there were seven of us and our parents couldn't afford it, so we got joint gifts and had to share. Now there's a concept that died out - sharing. We also never got our own books. We used the library.

We never used lunchbags that were throwaways. Growing up I never saw a paper towel or paper plate or plastic baggies.

I never had a new coat bought just for me until I graduated from high school and my father bought me a new spring coat as my graduation gift. My mother darned socks.

Yes, we could go on and on.

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Response to llmart (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:02 PM

10. This is a chain email, not an actual exchange between two humans.

This is the 450th time it's been posted here, I think.

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Response to REP (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:06 PM

14. So?

It's the first time I've seen it and I found it interesting. How do you know this sort of exchange didn't really happen somewhere/sometime?

Some people aren't happy unless they're feeling superior to others.

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Response to llmart (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:09 PM

17. No woman reminisces fondly about having no washing machine

Also, one of the women would have to be about 100 years old.

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Response to REP (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:14 PM

22. I missed the part about not having washing machines....

I even reread it just to be sure. Don't see it anywhere.

I would never wax nostalgic about not having a washing machine.

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Response to REP (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:37 PM

37. That isn't true.

Places in far Northern MN didn't even have electricity until the mid fifties. So a woman born in 1940 might well remember doing laundry in an old fashioned washing machine. Although that woman would be seventy three now.

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Response to truedelphi (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:46 PM

153. My MIL rode her horse to school in the 1970s

It was North Dakota, and lots of kids did it, because there were no school busses and their parents were too busy farming. Well, a lot of kids for North Dakota, which is probably not very many kids in the parts of the world that aren't hellishly cold, semi-inhabitable wastelands.

Didn't know how a washing machine worked until she joined the army during the Carter administration, either, and if left alone for more Han an hour or two in my house will start planting things or jarring things.

She's not that old; she's in her early fifties.

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Response to REP (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:18 PM

56. If you've never used one, you wouldn't have the chance to miss it.

Same with dishwashers, microwaves, flatscreen tv, etc.




People have survived this long (probably not much longer though the way we are now destroying the planet) without modern technologies and practices that are harmful to the environment.

Unfortunately, I really don't see a solution to the problem. Aside from my cynicism, putting our collective brains together and learning from each other isn't such a bad idea. We all have our differences, many more severe than age, but we could change in theory.


(I know, I know....I'm a dreamer .... )

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Response to REP (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:35 PM

112. But many women did hang their laundry out to dry.

 

/

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Response to REP (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:03 PM

141. Most of us can't even remember it, although we managed for years without dryers.

As I said in a previous note, we used clotheslines instead.

Also, if we didn't have our own washing machine at home, we loaded up the car once a week (and YES, you do need a car to make this practical) and took all our laundry to the laundromat. Many apartment dwellers in my neighborhood (including me) still have to make this part of their regular routine because they don't have laundry facilities on the premises. I don't have a car, so I have to take my laundry to the laundromat in my personal shopping cart and wash it one load at a time.

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Response to REP (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:56 PM

162. Not hardly.

I'm 60 yrs old. I remember when my grandmother had indoor plumbing installed. Along with the rest of her area. And she washed clothes by hand. This is late 1950's, early 60's.

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Response to llmart (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:57 PM

69. That's the problem with the "story"

It paints the older generation as superior to the younger generation. It could have been a lot more effective if it didn't have have holier-than-thou attitude.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #69)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:35 PM

113. You must be younger

 

Or you would understand that EVERY older generation sees the younger as inferior. That just comes with the turf.

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Response to GiaGiovanni (Reply #113)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:06 PM

129. 50

and I don't see my generation as superior to younger generations.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #129)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:32 PM

150. No! LOL!!

 

I stand corrected.

Or maybe you feel very young.

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Response to REP (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:05 PM

52. Yes, I am glad you posted this and it is the 450th time I have seen it. n/t

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Response to llmart (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:02 PM

11. Thanks, llmart.

A high-school classmate sent this to me, so its not MY story. And, fwiw, we're older than you!

We too only had one car, 4 of us. FUNNY when our folks retired to Florida Dad, decided he and Mom needed 2 cars! He gave me his 3? years ago, and I'm still driving it.

Driving to Florida shortly for a mini-high school reunion, and to visit cemetery where folks were interred. Using friend's much newer car, to save my car's useable life and gas money.

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Response to elleng (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:05 PM

13. There were nine in my family....

and somehow we were able to get along with only one car. One time my father bought a used hearse and as kids we used to fight over who got to sit where the cool kneelers were

We also had only one bathroom.

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Response to elleng (Reply #11)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:19 PM

23. Nonnie, mom, sister, and me out on a farm. Good times.

Two cars, Non (grandmother) had a 61 Olds '98, mom had a late 50's Fairlane that she used to go into town for her job as a social worker.

Dirt poor, we lived in my grandparents' house that was the center of the asparagus ranching operation, for free, thanks to the kindness of the landowner who leased ranch land to the farmers.

We had running water, but it wasn't potable. We had one faucet in the kitchen for cooking and drinking, fed by a repurposed aircraft fuel tank up in a tower for gravity pressure. River water was run through a sand filter system for all other purposes. The drinking water was trucked in on a trailer we had made of a redwood barrel with wooden spoked wheels.

And a party line!

Good times!

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:01 PM

8. And yes, old lady you got to stay home to to do all these things

What a load of fanciful glurge,

I am around 50. Most of this stuff predates my time. When people like this were in charge the rivers caught on fire. The only reason ANYONE took bottles back was for the deposits and many people did not bother and threw them by the side of the road.

TV was so good when there were only four channels although to get back to the days of this stuff maybe only 3. Or is it two with a five inch screen that they all huddled around for warmth? BTW those tiny single TVs consumed as much electricity as a roomful of modern big screens.

The cars all got about 6 mpg too.

Excelsior was what we used before styrofoam.

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:07 PM

15. When did people have drinking fountains in their houses?

Fan-cee! We drank from a glass when we wanted some water. We didn't have a drinking fountain at our house

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:09 PM

16. We didn't watch much TV.

We actually were outside learning about real life and nature. Hundred channels of TV is nothing to be proud of.

The river caught on fire because of the corporations who dumped their sewage into it.

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Response to llmart (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:22 PM

27. Right; Good; Thanks!

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Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #8)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:44 PM

43. +1

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:10 PM

18. K&R

Do you ever get tired of boomers being blamed for all the ills in the world? Yeah, me too.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #18)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:40 PM

64. You realize the vast majority of the things in this email pre-date the boomers, right?

Deposit bottles went away when boomers were, at best, kids.

And it wasn't "these kids today" who started using dryers.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #64)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:01 PM

72. Lots of places still have deposit bottles. nt

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #72)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:03 PM

73. Not Coke or Pepsi

Nor milk delivery, since that service disappeared as well. Those are what this chain email is trying to invoke.

There are new "deposit" taxes, where the state charges a refundable tax on the containers. But that's for recycling the plastic/glass/aluminium, not for wash and re-use.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #73)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:06 PM

75. We have milk delivery. Good grief. Where do you live? nt

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #75)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:09 PM

77. Upstate New York.

I'm surrounded by dairies. Exactly 0 will deliver in quantities smaller than a tanker truck.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #77)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:11 PM

207. I found a site that lists all the dairies that deliver in glass bottles

In the US. Maybe you'll get lucky. The one I use is on there and they're not the closest at all. I didn't even know about the closest one. But we like the one we use. Anyway, here it is. Good luck.

http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Dairies-Glass-Bottles-Milk.htm

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #73)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:10 PM

80. "How To Return Your Coke Bottles"

http://www.ehow.com/how_6902987_return-coke-bottles.html

"Determine whether you live in a state where a Bottle Bill is in effect. As of 2010, 11 states regulated that soft drink bottles carry a refundable deposit: California, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Iowa, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New York, Oregon and Vermont, according to the Bottle Bill Resource Guide. If you live in one of these states, you paid a small deposit (5 to 10 cents) when you purchased your bottle of Coke, and this money can be redeemed.

Step 2 of 4
Take your empty Coca-Cola bottles to the retailer where they were purchased and ask to claim your deposit. Many retailers provide vending machines where bottles can be returned, while others accept empty bottles at the register."

Snip

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #80)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:12 PM

81. Not a deposit container.

The bottles this chain email are referring to were returned to the bottler, washed, and then reused.

What you're talking about is a tax which is refunded when the bottle is destroyed by a recycling operation.

Not the same thing, and nowhere near as "green" - it takes a ton more energy to melt and re-form that glass bottle compared to washing it and refilling it.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #80)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:37 PM

198. We have 'redemption centers' all over the place.

They are generally run by some entrepreneurial type neighbor-person. Most towns have one. Much easier to go to one of them, then to drive all the way to a supermarket. For me anyway, and the money stays more local.

But I guess it depends on how the state bottle legislation is set up. Apparently there are quite a few variations that I was previously unaware of.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #73)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:22 PM

196. Our returnables include Coke and Pepsi.



The only non-returnables are dairy (such as the one gallon milk jugs) and unprocessed cider bottles.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #64)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:09 PM

78. Deposit bottles are thingx boomers know well

They certainly didn't "go away" in our time.

And I confess that I'm not getting your point--if you have one.

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #78)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:19 PM

84. My point is the chain email above whitewashes the situation

Or perhaps we should call it "greenwashing".

No-deposit bottles took over for sodas in the 1960s in most markets. So while boomers were alive for deposit containers, they were also the ones who decided to abandon them for no-deposit.

Yes, there's plenty of stuff we used to do that was "greener" than what we do today. And it would be good to look at what things we can bring back. But this email is implying that the "old woman" would have kept doing these "green" activities. And that simply isn't the case - she switched along with everyone else.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #84)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:33 PM

89. That's total BS

We have more deposit bottle recycling today than ever before.

What are you smoking?

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Response to pinboy3niner (Reply #89)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 08:43 PM

124. You are utterly missing the key word:

Recycling.

Today, many states have a tax that is refunded when you recycle the bottle. That's not a deposit.

But more to the point, recycling is nowhere near as green as a true deposit bottle. That deposit bottle was washed and refilled by the bottler. That uses MUCH less energy than crushing the glass and melting it down to make a new bottle.

Refundable taxes for recycling is better than just throwing the bottle away. But true deposit containers would have been much better than that, if the "old woman" in the email hadn't abandoned that practice.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #124)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:25 PM

159. I'd love to know where someone gets bottle washing

On soda. Last time I saw that was in the early 80's with RC cola. ( Chicago Tri-State area)


I live in Missouri now and there are a couple of small dairies that offer the service. Sometimes I purchase their milk when I forget to run over to an Amish farm that sells. (Also a bottle service and less than four dollars a gallon for whole milk with all the cream untouched. You either pay a deposit on the bottle each trip or buy a bottle outright and return it after it's empty.) Anyway, the grocery store milk is still quite expensive ( around six for a half gallon). You take the bottles to customer service for a one dollar refund and they return it to the company, where it is sterilized and reused.

I wish I could find more of this!

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:14 PM

21. We have had to bring our own bags to the stores, all of them including Wal-Mart, since January in

my county. Otherwise they will charge you anywhere from ten to fifty cents for a bag. I'm okay with it except that now that the stores don't have to provide bags, their overhead should be lower and their income a little higher due to the charge for the bags. I have not seen the savings passed on to the consumer. As a matter of fact my grocery bill is even higher for the same items. Again, we the consumer are being nickeled and dimed.

Also, like you, I always recycled the bags both paper and plastic, so they weren't filling up landfills, unless the recycling company was doing it. I remember when markets would use the cartons that goods came in to pack groceries, which we took home and reused to store stuff or give to a neighbor who might be moving. Those cartons got used over and over again. Old newspapers fulfilled a variety of functions and finally ended up in a fireplace or incinerator. Milk and soda bottles were glass and reused over and over again. Remember the refunds you got for your soda bottles? I think we used less disposable stuff and reused things over and over again back in those days, so we weren't creating a lot of garbage. I remember the curb garbage can in my parent's day being actually very small because most stuff got reused, composted or incinerated.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:11 PM

208. There is more to that ban than just plastic bags in the landfill

Coastal counties are finding that plastic bags are having a detrimental effect on marine life. Also in some farming communities the bags are littering fields which causes problems with farm machinery, also contamination of crops.

I think I heard that Mexico City has banned them entirely:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-08-19/world/mexico.plastic.bag.ban_1_plastic-bags-global-ban-mexico-city?_s=PM:WORLD

Problem with plastic bags is they don't stay in one place--they blow all around and clog things.

It really is the future--we all should be using reusable bags.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #208)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:02 PM

217. I don't have any problems with using them. I just would like to see the

savings those big box stores are benefitting from to be passed on to the consumer or for better wages for their employees. None are making an effort.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #217)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:31 PM

219. They don't think that way...

that would be socialism instead of Greed.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:23 PM

28. Cute, but apocryphal.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:33 PM

197. Why not just say outright that it's fiction?

It's a lie. It's a bullshit chain e-mail that's been going around for years and its purpose is to make young people look stupid and to stir up resentment against them. The OP was dishonest in not identifying it as such in the beginning, and misleading people into believing this was a true story.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:28 PM

29. Plus, the oldsters of today started the "green thing"

but that's neither here nor there, right?

"You should this or that". People who critique people are my pet peeve. Guaranteed, anyone who wanted to could think up a list on the spot, of things the "should-ers" should be doing themselves, without even trying.

But still, the critiquers think their critiquing is the equivalent of actually doing something meaningful. It just isn't though.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:29 PM

31. Grumpy Old Man gives his "rant of approval".

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:40 PM

40. Well done. I remember those day clearly

and using paper bags for my beautiful daughter's school books too.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:52 PM

45. While I normally don't like things that pit one generation against another.

I have seen older generations attacked along these lines in the past. I like that this shows good things done by older generations. It is not that older generations don't care about the environment, it is how we can build on the good things they have done.

All generations have had something to offer. All generations have failed us in some way. We are not perfect. Those blaming the generations before them simply don't want to do the work necessary to make things better. They want to lay blame instead of take action.

Older generations sometimes want to shake their heads at the younger generations just to show some level of superiority. And why not. They feel they have been around longer and know best. That is not always the case.

What I got from your op is that both the older person and the younger person both care about the environment. Unfortunately they care about personal battles even more.

I understand it is fictitious, but at the same time some of it is rooted in reality.

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #45)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:55 PM

46. Nicely stated.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:59 PM

47. All true. But another thing, our meat was packed in

paper, not plastic (when I was a child).

We reused the brown paper from bags, etc. for drawing and writing paper. Quaint, but true.

Still, I don't use the plastic store bags. I carry my own and wash them after use.

I love having my own bags.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:01 PM

48. One thing about clotheslines VS. clothes dryers. And I hung out clothes as a kid.


It's a lot easier to coordinate drying clothes on a clothesline when you don't work outside the home. When you've got to work it around working hours, it's doable but a bit more problematic.




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Response to raccoon (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:01 PM

96. I'm 32 and never use a dryer

I don't like what it does to my clothes. I have two indoor drying racks that I dry my clothes on. MY boomer parents use their dryer all the time.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:03 PM

51. K&R

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:11 PM

54. The time line here needs to be noted.

I am a senior, and I can remember being just a kid when Coca Cola came out in disposable bottles. My cola-addicted aunt was ecstatic! "No more returning bottles! Just throw them away!" Even as a kid, it struck me that these bottles would add up to mountains in no time at all. Adults should have had the common sense to reject these and go back to the return bottles.

Fountain pens? They had gone away before I even entered my teens.

And from this we jump to GPS?

Some things in the above story are accurate, and some are way off time-wise, unless the elderly lady in the parable was like 90 years old.

This obviously made-up story is just another way to play "Remember when?"

And while we're at it, stay off my lawn!

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Response to colorado_ufo (Reply #54)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:20 PM

146. I can remember using fountain pens until about my freshman year in high school.

We had ballpoints too, which is what I usually used, but fountain pens were something of a status symbol. Nowadays the older fountain pens are very collectible, and if you can find them, you can make good money on them on eBay and Etsy.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #146)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:27 PM

212. Nice Parkers and Sheaffers are beautiful.

I have some gold Parkers and Sheaffers and Crosses that were my dad's. A sterling silver sheaffer Targa and two or three Watermans.

Beautiful writing instruments.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:13 PM

55. Great post and thanks for the razor blade suggestion

I'm not even sure where I can buy razors with replaceable blades anymore. I think they are intentionally designed to get dull fast. But I'll see if I can find some.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #55)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:26 PM

57. Probably.

'Planned obsolescence.' I've thought U.S. cars were made like that. STILL driving Dad's '93 Toyo wagon.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #55)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:36 PM

61. There's a ton of them where the head is the only "disposable" part.

With the much smaller size of the actual blades, it's roughly a wash in terms of how much you are throwing away.

I've been using a "Mach 3" for quite a while now, both for the better shave and throwing less away.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #61)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:47 PM

67. Yeah that occured to me.

Almost removed my post, considering that an old fashioned blade probably use more resources to make than the new ones.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:35 PM

60. Don't be too hard on glass bottles

This is coming from an old bottle maker. People aren't aware that 70% of a glass bottle is made up of an old bottle. Glass has been recycling for a long long time, for some reason they don't publicize it.

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Response to watoos (Reply #60)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:00 PM

95. It's still probably better to wash and reuse them

rather than smash them up and make a new bottle.

I have to admit I miss seeing beach glass, you hardly ever see it anymore.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:40 PM

65. Where's that

unrec button?

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:42 PM

66. not only glurge but bullshit glurge

CO2 emissions peaked 40 years ago. It wasn't exactly the "young cashier" running around in her excessive display of promiscuous consumption then was it? Sounds more like the heyday of the other star in this BS tableau does it not?

Christ knows I can fault the young of today for many things, and play get off my lawn with the best, but trying to pretend that such ephemera outweigh the massively unchecked pollution of the 70s is asinine.

Unless the "much older woman", who seems to have lived in several different time periods, was a house-bound subsistence farmer in her youth, she hasn't got a leg to stand on.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:54 PM

68. This is both greatly enlightening and highly ironic. It is also appreciated.

 

All of these changes you wrote of are the direct result of the transformation of America from that loosely knit national community that led the world in so many areas into the great consumer flock, barely able to function at the most basic level.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #68)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 05:58 PM

70. Yes. Right. Thanks.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:10 PM

79. Nice rant - and I fully agree. Every damn thing is disposable now.

 

We reuse or recycle pretty much everything we can. We keep cars running until they're completely out of commission. We ride bikes. We grow our own food (to the extent that we can) and patronize farmers markets. We get paper sacks for our groceries so we can put the recyclable bottles, newspapers, and cardboard packaging in them. I take steel, copper, brass, aluminum, and other metals to a reclamation center. I don't make a lot of money off of it, but it at least doesn't end up in a landfill or incinerator. I comb the neighborhoods on trash day to find such metals.

Pretty much all metals we rely on are in finite supply, at least on the earth's surface. Some are unlimited, but who's going to drill down to the core to try to extract those? About 85% of all aluminum that's ever been used is still in use from recycling. It's at the top of the list for re-use. What are we going to do when we run out of metals?

On the other hand, will the societies of the earth survive long enough to see the metals depleted? We're doing a pretty damn good job of killing off our environment as it is. Perhaps the metals don't matter. The sun will go super nova one day and distribute the materials to other solar systems. I won't be around to see that happen.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:13 PM

82. How do I scoop the cat litter?

I cannot put the litter box in the bathroom near the toilet bowl because the bathroom is too small. Use a paper bag? That isn't exactly green either. Put it on the scoop and carry it around the house to the toilet bowl? Like a potato race? Teach the CATS to use the toilet bowl??????

This is what I use those plastic grocery store bags for. If they are banned, then I will have to buy PAPER lunch bags for the cat poop.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:24 PM

87. I miss milk in bottles

and the milkman delivering it right to the front door. As a kid we collected discarded bottles and turned them in for hard cash.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:31 PM

88. And what nearby stream did the bleach and effluence from this


go into, 'back then'?

"Back then, we returned milk bottles, soda bottles and beer bottles to the store. The store sent them back to the plant to be washed and sterilized and refilled, so it could use the same bottles over and over. So they really were recycled."

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #88)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:39 PM

90. Surely, you aren't suggesting that disposable containers are more eco-friendly?

Even with the use of bleach back then, this is highly unlikely.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #90)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:42 PM

91. Difficult to compare 1:1

My only point is that not all was sweetness and light, 'back then'.

We did real, and lasting ecological damage a hundred years ago as well. Today, recycled milk cartons? How much waste/byproduct is there? Well, I know it's better regulated these days anyway.

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #91)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:54 PM

94. We are a more wasteful and consumeristic society than ever before.

I see a lot of "reaction" to this OP and I think it's unfair.

For one thing, we know a lot more now than we did "back then" about the environment and the error of our ways.

Still, we use more energy per capita than ever before, we live in bigger houses than ever before*, and spend less time outdoors.

Oh, and our diet has never been worse, with high quality fresh food harder to find than in days past.

Our carbon footprint, just per capita, is vastly larger than it used to be.

*Home size has begun to drop ever so slightly, and car MPG is improving.

In the end, there's a lot of good in this post, as there were a lot of things done far more efficiently and sustainably back then.

To our health:

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #94)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:49 PM

199. Not true

Our carbon footprint is too large, and larger than it was in preindustrial times, but per capita emissions have been declining for 30 yrs at least

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EN.ATM.CO2E.PC?page=6

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Response to dmallind (Reply #199)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:59 PM

204. That data set is incomplete.

Per Capita figures based only on burning of fossil fuels and cement production are only part of the picture.

Cement, transportation, in-country manufacturing, heating, and electrical power generation are the primary fossil fuel burners and consequent carbon emissions culprits.

But, we buy so much from other countries that unless THAT carbon component, the manufacturing and transportation of goods, etc., is considered, then the data set is very misleading.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:49 PM

93. From a younger person's POV

My parents are 63 and I have never met more entitled people in my life (my mom takes the cake here). Did she have a difficult childhood? Yes (according to her stories).

But the way she acts now is just like a spoiled princess. The most common thing to come out of her mouth is "I deserve it" like she's a spoiled reality TV star. She's genuinely a nice person, but I have never seen so much entitlement in my life before.


Here's another thing about the younger generation. We're the first generation to not have it better off than our parents did. Last time I checked it was not the American Dream to screw your children over.

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Response to tabbycat31 (Reply #93)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:06 PM

98. My fol0ks are in their 70's.

They are the same way. In fact, they are the very kind of people who would make up a bullshit story like the one in this chain e-mail. And, it would be a bullshit story, because if someone ever said to them anything like what this young cashier supposedly said, they'd have reported her and raised hell to get her fired.

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Response to tabbycat31 (Reply #93)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:17 PM

210. Check out some other Boomers stories

and how life was in the 80's. Not so good for many Boomers under Raygun.

And now the Boomers have to worry about their parents AND their children's fortunes. The Squeeze generation--a first. Prior to that not as many parents lived to be taken care of in late old age. Many Boomers are helping their adult children out--having to use retirement accounts and such.

Don't buy that generational crap. We're all in this together. Your Mom might be a Narcissist in any generation.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:02 PM

97. Thereby proving again that the only people who forward friggin' chain emails are really old.

I told my mom to fucking stop it, back in 2002. Enough.

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Response to Warren DeMontague (Reply #97)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:16 PM

102. How old is 'really old,' in your opinion???

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:08 PM

99. You hit the Bulls-Eye !

This is the most well written statement I've ever read ! So informative and educational. I'm passing it on to my siblings and friends, so they can pass it on to their children.
I remember having only Brown paper bags at the supermarket. Plastic is killing this planet.

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Response to MadamYes (Reply #99)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:22 PM

106. Exactly right, about brown paper bags at the supermarket!

Funny that I recall when I first saw the now ubiquitous plastic bags, on my honeymoon, in ITALY, in 1984! At the time my DC grocery store used brown paper bags, and I'd fill up 2 or so (until children born, '85 and '88, when I'd put 4-6 of them in the trunk of my Rabbit.)

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:31 PM

110. K & R good stuff, brought back memories. nt

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 07:45 PM

115. K&R

Your rebuttal post to the young woman's insolent, broad brush insult brought back a world of memories. I remember those days fondly and am so glad I was born when I was born.

Here are some additions:

We played outside using our limbs and our imaginations, rather than being tethered to gadgets (which require energy for charging batteries).

We ate on dishes that we hand washed (I still do, the dishwasher is a drying rack).





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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 08:07 PM

120. Divisive glurge

The fact is that we didn't have a choice whether or not to return milk and soda bottles or use paper sacks for our groceries. We don't have a choice now unless we live in states with bottle return bills on the books. Day cares often demand disposable diapers, no choice there, either.

Yeah, bringing our own bags is better than using those disposable things that get caught in trees and take two years to flap in the wind before they finally break down into small pieces and disappear in the leaves. However, they get forgotten, they get washed and don't dry in time. No cashier should be empowered to nag anyone for not using them over plastic, it's not his/her job.

Above all, trying to divide us along generational lines because we had different choices taken away from us is counterproductive, at best.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #120)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:35 PM

136. +1

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Response to elleng (Original post)


Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 08:49 PM

125. I'm old enough to remember every one of those features of life in the 1950s,

including recycling soda bottles and milk bottles and using brown paper grocery bags to make covers for my schoolbooks. Just because we didn't call it "recycling" back then doesn't mean we didn't do it. The thing that strikes me the most about all that now is that we took it all for granted. We didn't feel especially deprived or inconvenienced because we had to hang our laundry on clotheslines to dry in the sun, nor did we feel especially virtuous about it. After all, the neighbors didn't have dryers either. I remember that my mother had a folding drying rack to use indoors on rainy days.

We took it all for granted because that was our "modern" lifestyle--modern for the 1950s anyway. Of course we didn't have the word "lifestyle" either. We would have said it was simply the way we lived.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #125)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:15 PM

132. "We didn't feel especially deprived or inconvenienced" = exactly. interesting that disposables etc

 

came onto the market at about the same time the women's movement kicked into high gear.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #132)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:30 PM

148. Well, there are some things a stay-at-home mom can do more easily than one who works.

Hanging clothes on a clothesline to dry being one obvious example. That's something you'd want to do during daylight hours, which are also working hours for most people.

Most women work out of sheer economic necessity, which isn't directly related to the women's movement. When women joined the work force in large numbers, it became one more excuse for corporations to pay the traditional breadwinners less than a living wage--and then finally ship their jobs offshore. As we all know, the end result was less time and less money for everyone but the 1%.

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Response to Raksha (Reply #148)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:01 PM

154. the economic necessity is kind of related to the women's movement though. double the labor

 

supply and wages drop -- per the laws of supply and demand. it's not the only reason wages stagnated, but it was a predictable one.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #154)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:54 PM

161. I really hope you are not suggesting that the women's movement is at fault for ...

environmental degradation?!? Are you suggesting we should all get out of the workforce and go back home?

Perhaps you are unaware of something: world-wide, women do 99% of the world's work, and we own only 1% of the wealth.

That does not add up to the kind of control over the state of the world to end up pointing fingers at the women's Rights movement (as in Civil Rights), to make us to blame for the current sorry state of the ecological damage to our home planet.

I think we can look steadily at the 1% of wealth-owners, follow the money, and see who REALLY has benefited from most of the economic and social changes since the 1970's.

We scared the pants off the greed-heads and social conservatives! They have been trying to push us all back to Dark Ages feudalism, ever since. They did not like our threats to their all-mighty profits, and their desire to control women is NOT because they are nice fuzzie wuzzies who have the best interests of the rest of us at heart.

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Response to love_katz (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:07 AM

164. I'm suggesting that increasing the labor supply = wage reduction. It's not controversial.

 

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #164)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:59 AM

168. My issue with that stance is that it plays into the hands of the 1%...

who want us to tear at each other, and blame other powerless groups for the problems our society is having.

It also plays into the hands of the American Taliban (read- fundy conservative religious types of all religions), who would love nothing better than to force women back into the home, with no alternative but to endure abusive marriages!

If I wanted to get divisive, I could certainly point out the mess that Men have made of this world (come on, the statistics on who has the power, money, and influence...hint: it is NOT women)...but my awareness of class warfare and its devastating effects on us all holds me back.

In spite of that, the answer is absolutely NOT for women to just bow our little heads and toddle back home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't you get it: the 1% thrives on the idea of scarcity and the fear it creates. There would be enough work for everyone, and decent paying jobs as well as compared to the sorry excuses for wages too many of us get, if it were not for the greed of the 1%. We need to stop them from off-shoring our jobs, AND more jobs need to be created to solve the humongous pile of unsolved economic, social, and ecological issues that need to be addressed, let along fixed.

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Response to love_katz (Reply #168)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:27 AM

174. I get that it's absolutely a fact that the entry of women into the workforce in a major way

 

helped depress wages. I have no idea what you find so objectionable about stating the obvious. I'm not responsible for narratives you or anyone else construct around that *fact*.





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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #174)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:46 AM

175. Women are not responsible for the depression of wages.

Good grief!

What I find objectionable is the whiff of blaming, which bugs me HUGELY!

Women don't own the wealth of the world, nor do we wield our fair share of clout in terms of political power.

The depression of wages is not the fault of women.

The depression of wages is a ploy by the wealthy owners of our society to keep wealth and power in their hands.

It is NOT a 'narrative' that I have personally constructed.

I SHOULD be so very lucky, as to have that much power over the way our society works...except I understand that the whole concept of power-over is what is flawed!

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Response to love_katz (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:11 AM

165. THANK YOU, love!

Been WAITING for this!

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:26 PM

134. You're making me feel old

green thing has always been cool!

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 09:56 PM

140. You young folks and your penicillin!

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:12 PM

144. I agree with all of this except the confrontational tone and a focus on inter-generational butt-hurt

Pretty cool post tho.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:12 PM

145. My grocer wrote the bill with carbon paper & pencil

No fancy electric computer to sort it all out, and he had to push a key on the cash register to open the drawer.

No belt to move the groceries - the clerk had to move everything by hand - no carousel for bags - each one had to be picked up and opened.

No being rude to customers - green or not green - now or then...

And we passed down clothing till it fell apart . . .

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 10:40 PM

151. Big difference . . .

the "older generation" did what they did because it was what was available and was the way things were then. "The Green Thing" now is taken on as a matter of choice and is far from easy. I chose to eat only organic foods, not only for my own health and well-being but for the health and well-being of the environment and what will be left to the coming generations by us. Easy? Can't frickin go into a normal restaurant or grocer store and find much if anything to eat. Can't even get a lot of stuff to eat in most "natural food stores" which behind the mask of "The Green Thing" have their majority of foods from non-organic sources.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:20 PM

157. one of my biggest peeves

is the fact that appliances don't last like they used too.

Seems like things are so much disposable now. My Mothers avocado green dryer lasted for 35 years, I've gone through THREE dryers in the last ten years!

They do not make things to last anymore, it's annoying!

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #157)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:24 PM

158. Right, more planned obsolescence.

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #157)


Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:04 AM

163. The problem with the 'throw-away' kind of products is...

there is "no 'away' to throw things too". (Thank you to Anne Cameron, for the quote).

Everything that is thrown 'away' winds up on someone's yard, beach, river, etc.

The whole idea was rotten from the beginning.

And, yes, it IS planned obsolescence because that creates more profits for the 1%.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:32 AM

166. I get a little peeved, and a little puzzled when...

some younger generation folks try to blame all the greed or our current society, and all of the environmental degradation on those of us who were movers and shakers back in the 1960's.

They seem unaware that the "Green" movement began as a movement during the Sixties. I was in high school when the first Earth Day happened. A lot of what the Sixties was about was to stop mindlessly being part of the consumerist, war-mongering, Earth polluting and destroying, sexist, racist, classist society. That's why we referred to it as "dropping out"!

And, yes, many people had an awareness of needing to live what would now be termed a 'green' lifestyle. J.I. Rodale, the founder of Organic Gardening Magazine was promoting organic gardening and the avoidance of chemicals as long ago as 1949. Aldo Leopold, who died in 1948, wrote the quintessential manifesto for an environmentally conscientious land ethic, "A Sand County Almanac". I could go on, and on.

None of this was widely known until the environmental movement took off in the 1960's.

I would apologize for not single-handedly saving the Earth for future generations, while earning my living from low-wage, working class jobs...but, that would be absurd.

Believe me, if I HAD been in charge of the world, and had that kind of power given to me, things would be VERY much different!

And, yes, I DO live in a very old home (1920's vintage - I do NOT own it - don't earn enough to buy any home)...it has far fewer electrical outlets than newer homes. I haven't had a dryer for @ 7 years. Not out of some 'moral' superiority...it is due to lack of income! I hang my clothes on an old clothesline in the basement or on a couple of drying racks, or put the drying racks outside when the sun shines and its warm enough to dry them. I work outside the home (split shifts)...it is a hardship...towels come out like cardboard when dried this way. This practice, along with many other similar things I do, helps me save $ and precious natural resources, but it is very time consuming. I don't think I could manage this stuff if I had a family.
Making real change can be both difficult and expensive. We ALL need each other to make it through...and the Earth and the children of the future need us to work together on this stuff, as well.
I wish people would stop the snark towards each other, because I think the 1% laughs all the way to the bank when we tear at each other.

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Response to love_katz (Reply #166)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:03 AM

169. Thanks AGAIN, love_.

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Response to elleng (Reply #169)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:12 AM

170. More than welcome.

to you.

sorry if I've ranted so much on your post.

It has provoked some interesting discussion.

I had better scoot...my alarm goes off @ 3:30 am.

G'nite.

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Response to love_katz (Reply #170)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:14 AM

171. I've really appreciated your 'rants' here;

just about the best.

Sweet dreams!

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Response to love_katz (Reply #166)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:58 PM

203. Thank you for speaking out. Yes environmentalism started in the 60s.

Maybe even before with some enlightened scientists who had a couple of breakthroughs that boomers used. People forget what communes tried to do. It wasn't just socialism. It was a better way of life all around - naturally. When they sold their products to markets and sometimes had a hard time, that's when health food stores came about - natural grocers that sold products that didn't use pesticides, etc.

Thank you again. I hope life takes a turn for the wonderful just for you.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #203)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:03 PM

205. Oh, bright blessings to you, and thank you.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:23 AM

172. This 'green thing' mass email has been talked about on the Snopes forum since

 

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:23 AM

173. Lost it's way at the end...

It was great until the end. There's absolutely nothing wrong with computers, telecommunications, and GPS.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:39 AM

176. I do have to point out a few things

One the tv screens may be bigger but the use less energy than the little ones we had in the 1970's. Two, cars have improved greatly in mileage. Even the SUVs of today get better mileage than many cars of the 1960's and 1970's did. Much of the rest is fair but those two do need to be fairly put in context.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:42 AM

177. yay! generational conflict!

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 03:47 AM

178. my grandpa was composting. victory garden since the war.

he recycled. faithfully. grandma refinished antique furniture. when they built a cabin on inherited lake land, grandma said NO to a lawn. she wanted the woods. gotta blame the soiled disposable baby boomers. disposable drives me up the wall.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 05:04 AM

179. We also burned trash in backyard incinerators, and drove gas-guzzling boats...

Using unrefined fuels, throwing untold tons of deadly (and vision-obscuring, eye-watering) pollutants into the air...orchards were heated with burning smudge-pots, people smoked tobacco like the Chicago Fire, and God-knows-what went into landfills, upon which sat new home construction, that was daubed thoroughly with lead-based paints. Asbestos was used widely in school bungalows and other public structures. Raw sewage poured into our beaches, lakes and waterways.

This is but a very short list -- but yes, we truly *didn't* have the "green thing" back then.

I know -- I was there.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:24 AM

180. And most of those smartasses

don't have the ability to count out your change as they drop it into your hand like they used to do years ago. If you want to ensure you don't get ripped off you have to count it yourself before you get too far from the cash register. And believe me, you get shortchanged quite often either deliberately or because they get confused.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:57 AM

183. Pandora Radio only lets me pass on a few songs each hour

thanks DU, for not limiting the threads I can trash.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:46 AM

185. Things seem better back then, the simpler life, for sure. But, disagree that it was all

motivated by thinking green. To me, it was motivated by saving money and lack of advanced technology of the time.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:47 AM

186. Very Good Post

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:08 AM

187. I would love to go back to the days of paper packaging, glass jars and bottles, returnable

coke bottles, and to see styrofoam outlawed across the country.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:22 AM

188. The young clerk responded,

"That's our problem today. Your generation did not care enough to save our environment for future generations."

I would have fired that clerk on the spot, apologized to the customer, checked her out myself, and given her a discount.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:24 AM

189. What was old is new again...

My parents generation (pre-baby boom) recycled everything because there wasn't this level of gross consumerism that was foisted upon the American public until the post WWII years.

The babyboomers exploited the worlds resources on a much grander scale that could have never been imagined before. In the 19th century, resources were squanders, exploited and torn from nations via robber barons and the ultra-wealthy. It was only after successive panics that corporations came to the forefront to replace the Carnegie's, the Vanderbilt's etc.

WWII allowed corporations to suddenly exploit all the worlds resources under the guise of "we need to win a war" and the post war mantra, "we deserve it because we won a war". Out went much of the "old fashion" concept of recycling and in came "new is better" because if people are recycling how on earth are you going to convince them to buy more new stuff?

I was born on the tail end of the baby boom generation (1963). I missed most of what was considered the "golden age" of Post War America. I came of age during Watergate and when the first Earth day occurred April 1970.

We had all sorts of programs going on in elementary school to become "Ecologically" minded. But frankly, not much really occurred after that nationally for many years. Don't get me wrong there were protests against nukes and the national news of the Love Canal disaster, etc, but it really didn't catch on fire until, in my opinion the late 1980's.

My parents being of the depression era generation and of the "greatest generation" (a term they both hated), had always taught my brother, sisters and I to try and be creative about reusing things and fixing things instead of buying new. As a result, I used that same skill set when I renovated my home (built in '72) and reused much of the old growth timber 2 x 4's in the walls. (which still smelled fresh when I cut them a few years ago)

No one owns the concept of recycling, no one generation is better than the last. It's all a matter of perspective. The baby boomer generation gets a lot of well deserved guff for a lot of todays problems, but on the flip side of that, it was the "greatest generation" that gave birth to them and raised them. So who is to blame?

Whether you are a gen X'er, Y'er, etc. We are all a victim of marketing, propaganda and group think.

Castigating one generation because of their problems as the cause of another generations problems is just ridiculousness. Because not everyone is the same and blanket statements serve no one other than to inflate ego.

While this chain email has been around for a while and reeks of the "get off my lawn", it's only purpose is nothing more to demean the current generation for what? I don't know, because while the older generation did in fact recycle many things they also left us with a very much polluted world that is still being polluted via out modded thinking, but yet is still, for the majority of the world, still encouraged.

The bottom line is this: we all can learn from each other. I learned from my parents and am choosing to pass on that which I have learned and at the same time, keeping a very much open mind to new ways of doing things.

While the older generation did recycle a lot of things, todays generation has made recycling a part of life as it once was long ago.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:31 AM

190. The idea that the "green thing" is an individual's choice is the problem

The notion that it a personal choice is is corporatist propaganda designed to distract our attention away from the real issue of lack of regulation and the flouting of existing law.
Corporate interests have been forcing consumer "choices" on everybody for years.

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Response to jcboon (Reply #190)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:28 PM

213. Whew +++++ FINALLY +++++ Bingo Bingo

The "green thing" == SO MANUFACTURED.

If you really look at it hard, it's nothing more than a giant cover-up for the worst kind of environmental exploitation.

It also gives a sense of false security -- "the feeling of something's being done now. We're ON it."

NOTHING could be further from the truth.

So NEITHER Consumers--the Boomers NOR the Millennials--are really addressing the issues in the way they MUST be addressed--the Big Picture. Instead we fall into this trap of arguing over minutia. None of us has ever had control. Corporates control. It is Propaganda.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 10:33 AM

191. And we wore an onion on our belt, because that was the fashion at the time...

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Response to AngryAmish (Reply #191)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:34 PM

200. This is the only response to the OP that is worth anything

You sir/madam are funny.

The original chain email/facebook post and the responses and support fall into the "WHAAAAHHHAHAHAHA, things change and I don't like it" realm.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 11:41 AM

194. Thank goodness the old days are gone. I'm 65 and I remembered when I worked and

 

having to use paper products was bunch better then having to waste time washing plates over and over again. I love cloth napkins but I stopped using them and use paper napkins. When you go to work from 7 pm in the morning to 5 pm in the late afternoon, 5 days a week. Then you have to go home cook a meal, help the kids with homework and then having to take your kid to an active that he wants to play. Plus going to college at night well you can see you just don't have lots of time to do many things to cut corners. Yes I recyle whatever I can. But I am looking forward and not back. I wish we could have kept some of the values the country had back then. Like caring what happens to people and helping to lift all boats.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 11:55 AM

195. The discussion should be- We didn't have 7 billion people back then.

That's all it is.

And that's why when the design engineering magazines coined the term "green" around 1990, I discontinued my subscriptions. Green is bullshit. It's all about population.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:47 PM

201. But the baby boomers were the ones that invented all that disposable trash.

Our parents were the ones who invented all the recyclable bottles and bags.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 03:05 PM

214. An environmentally sensitive lifestyle is a frugal lifestyle.

You can't earn and spend six figures in an environmentally sensitive way.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 03:26 PM

215. Okay...

The most irritating things about these generational warfare email forwards...

One, poverty is not virtue. They didn't need the device to find the burger joint because the device didn't exist and there was only one burger joint in town.

Two, while they were wrapping schoolbooks in paper bags and washing out coke bottles, they were also heating with coal, burning leaded gas in their cars and draining used motor oil directly on the ground.

And third, when disposables came out you guys quit washing out beer bottles that very day.

The other irritating one is the one about how things were better in the old days because you drank from the hose. They leave some things out...how the kid down the street was a little slow because he ate lead paint chips (kids did this because lead tastes sweet), people insulated with asbestos and died before reaching 50, your cousins drank from the hose when the guy next door was spraying arsenic on his wife's roses through a hose mounted sprayer without a backflow preventer and everyone figured they all died of the vapors, and you were sick your whole life because mom smoked during pregnancy.

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 05:42 PM

216. still she should bring reuseable bags and recycle everything

stores should give them out

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Response to elleng (Original post)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 08:12 PM

218. Riding mowers are not easy!!! Don't knock them.

How the hell else do you put out a wildfire? Can't waste water during a drought.

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