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Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:12 PM

Does anybody remember the Left?

A few reminders.


Universal health care--that’s on the Left.

Left is when workers share in the benefits of their own increased productivity.

Left is when we have a draft that ensures that the kids of the rich die in equal numbers with the poor in our wars.

Left is when the government regulates the excesses of the rich and extends a helping hand to those at the lower margins of society, guaranteeing a chance at a decent life for all, rather than clamping down on the poor and helping the rich.

Left is when civil rights are extended to human beings, and corporations are not classified as specially privileged, immortal persons.

Left is when wholesale murder via corporate “cost-benefit analysis” is punished equally with retail murder committed in a gas station holdup.

Left is when the education system seeks to transmit wisdom and humane values, not just minimal job skills for the next generation of worker ants.

Left hasn't been seen in these parts in decades. I miss it

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Arrow 144 replies Author Time Post
Reply Does anybody remember the Left? (Original post)
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 OP
Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #1
Scuba Feb 2013 #2
Solly Mack Feb 2013 #9
Agony Feb 2013 #25
indepat Feb 2013 #102
Raksha Feb 2013 #131
leftstreet Feb 2013 #3
idwiyo Feb 2013 #87
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #4
DearHeart Feb 2013 #5
kairos12 Feb 2013 #6
geckosfeet Feb 2013 #52
kairos12 Feb 2013 #61
pangaia Feb 2013 #90
geckosfeet Feb 2013 #107
pangaia Feb 2013 #111
Lars39 Feb 2013 #106
Still Sensible Feb 2013 #7
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #11
hay rick Feb 2013 #116
Demeter Feb 2013 #44
PufPuf23 Feb 2013 #57
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #122
PufPuf23 Feb 2013 #137
OceanEcosystem Feb 2013 #8
GoneFishin Feb 2013 #35
dreamnightwind Feb 2013 #46
pangaia Feb 2013 #92
xxqqqzme Feb 2013 #98
Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #66
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #10
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #12
Warpy Feb 2013 #13
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #17
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #22
sibelian Feb 2013 #40
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #43
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #130
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #135
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #138
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #139
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #140
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #141
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #143
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #93
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #128
Raksha Feb 2013 #132
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #30
kairos12 Feb 2013 #73
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #79
kairos12 Feb 2013 #80
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #82
Warpy Feb 2013 #126
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #136
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #129
Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #134
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #14
Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #28
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #15
bvar22 Feb 2013 #19
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #20
bvar22 Feb 2013 #32
madfloridian Feb 2013 #54
Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #67
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #72
MuseRider Feb 2013 #86
socialist_n_TN Feb 2013 #71
white_wolf Feb 2013 #117
socialist_n_TN Feb 2013 #124
MuseRider Feb 2013 #84
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #89
MuseRider Feb 2013 #94
limpyhobbler Feb 2013 #127
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #16
Bainbridge Bear Feb 2013 #36
bvar22 Feb 2013 #18
timdog44 Feb 2013 #26
Bainbridge Bear Feb 2013 #38
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #51
white_wolf Feb 2013 #53
KoKo Feb 2013 #144
zeemike Feb 2013 #21
hue Feb 2013 #23
LoisB Feb 2013 #24
deutsey Feb 2013 #27
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #42
Phlem Feb 2013 #29
KoKo Feb 2013 #31
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #50
KoKo Feb 2013 #62
msongs Feb 2013 #33
DirkGently Feb 2013 #34
highspeed Feb 2013 #41
hrmjustin Feb 2013 #45
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #37
4bucksagallon Feb 2013 #39
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #133
helveticas Feb 2013 #47
liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #48
quaker bill Feb 2013 #49
RobertEarl Feb 2013 #55
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #56
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #70
99th_Monkey Feb 2013 #112
patrice Feb 2013 #58
ReallyIAmAnOptimist Feb 2013 #59
bvar22 Feb 2013 #91
KG Feb 2013 #60
kath Feb 2013 #76
LeftInTX Feb 2013 #63
dtom67 Feb 2013 #64
liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #74
senseandsensibility Feb 2013 #75
kath Feb 2013 #78
senseandsensibility Feb 2013 #88
deutsey Feb 2013 #109
Timbuk3 Feb 2013 #65
JimDandy Feb 2013 #68
Skittles Feb 2013 #69
L0oniX Feb 2013 #77
abelenkpe Feb 2013 #81
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #85
AndyTiedye Feb 2013 #121
bread_and_roses Feb 2013 #83
LWolf Feb 2013 #97
socialist_n_TN Feb 2013 #123
LWolf Feb 2013 #95
daleanime Feb 2013 #96
demosincebirth Feb 2013 #99
Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #100
white_wolf Feb 2013 #118
demosincebirth Feb 2013 #119
white_wolf Feb 2013 #120
demosincebirth Feb 2013 #125
RKP5637 Feb 2013 #101
WillyT Feb 2013 #103
Stinky The Clown Feb 2013 #104
YoungDemCA Feb 2013 #105
Laelth Feb 2013 #108
AnotherMcIntosh Feb 2013 #110
felix_numinous Feb 2013 #113
tledford Feb 2013 #114
Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #115
socialist_n_TN Feb 2013 #142

Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:18 PM

1. Wasn't that some crackpot fringe group that briefly existed during the Bush years? n/t

 

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:19 PM

2. Sure, but it's now known as the "radical fringe left" ....

... despite being no more radical or fringe than it was 20 years ago.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:34 PM

9. Yep

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Response to Scuba (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:23 PM

25. too true to be funny...

Cheers anyway, Scuba!

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Response to Scuba (Reply #2)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 04:29 PM

102. The cancer that has metastasized throughout our society is the fruit of the radical right's agenda

having mostly become ironclad public policy by mal-governance from the extreme right and demonetization of anything librul.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:26 AM

131. Yup. I tell everyone these days that I'm a radical lefty and a radical feminist,

and let 'em think whatever they want. I know what I mean even if they don't.

In reality my political values haven't changed much in 40 years, and they were never all that radical anyway. I believed in such quaint things as the Bill of Rights and the common good. Still do, but the country has moved so far to the right my values have become "radical." So be it.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:20 PM

3. Sounds like a bunch of Commies

DURec

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Response to leftstreet (Reply #3)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:09 PM

87. Exactly!

And everyone knows them commies are dangerous bunch!

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:21 PM

4. Moonbats

Serious liberals believe in war and free markets.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:23 PM

5. I do, but it's getting a little lonely out here on the radical fringe!

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:24 PM

6. Agreed and Left is...

Left is when Unions protect the wages of the middle class.

Left is when the courts are not packed with corporate apologists and protectors.

Left is when highways and bridges are built, not sports stadiums.

Left is when the poor are not spat upon and ridiculed.

Left is when social security is protected because it lifted the elderly out of a state of poverty.

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Response to kairos12 (Reply #6)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:57 PM

52. Building sports stadiums employs people too.

There is nothing that says liberals can't enjoy sports.

What is obscene is mega rich corps and team owners holding fans hostage for tax dollars to finance stadiums, then charging them ridiculous amounts for tickets.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #52)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:34 PM

61. Sports Jobs

I agree that jobs can be created by these stadiums. I object to the rich using the courts and tax money to build their palaces. For example, how the Shrub got rich off of the stadium he built in Arlington and then sold the franchise. Or what is happening now in Miami, the owner taking the team apart after the stadium was built. That stadium will have less jobs because the owner traded off all of his players meaning attendance will be way down and thus affecting the minimum wage workers.

I personally enjoy all sports, just don't want to enrich the one percent. thanks.

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Response to kairos12 (Reply #61)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:40 PM

90. I'm a fan of the Batavia(NY) Muckdogs.

For quite a few years they have been the Card's minor league team in the Short-A season NY/PENN league. I've been following quite a few of them as they climb the hellish minor league ladder.. most recently Vance Albitz, a killer SS.
This winter they were sold to the Miami Marlins....When I heard that I thought. "WHO ?"

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Response to pangaia (Reply #90)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 05:11 PM

107. Ha ha. I was a Rochester Red Wings fan when I lived in the area.

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #107)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:15 PM

111. Wow.. Small world. I go to redwings games also.

Followed a few guys up and down to and from the Twins.
I liked the old Silver Stadium much more than Frontier Field...
J R Towles, a catcher/outfielder who can't hit a curve ball, just got traded from the RW to the Cards.
Within 1.5 hours I can get to 3 AAA teams, 2 Short A and a summer college league team.. Sweet in the summer..

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Response to geckosfeet (Reply #52)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 04:46 PM

106. Once built, the majority of those jobs are part time and seasonal, not full-time, with benefits.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:31 PM

7. Accurate..... with one little nit

the left was pretty strongly in favor of ending the draft. Of course, what has been wrought with the all voluntary services is not quite what we had in mind.

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Response to Still Sensible (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:42 PM

11. That was certainly true in Vietnam, but

many on the left have always viewed a truly universal draft as one of the better ways to keep the chickenhawks honest. Think of WWII, when the sons of the rich also went to fight.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #11)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 07:16 PM

116. Agreed. The draft is a good brake on "wars of choice."

Draft EVERYBODY with very few exceptions and send NOBODY to fight unnecessary foreign wars.

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Response to Still Sensible (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:25 PM

44. Ending wars of aggression would be much more beneficial

which was the point of ending the draft, by the way. It wasn't known as the Peace Movement because it was peaceful...

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Response to Still Sensible (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:26 PM

57. I believe in a fair draft and of sex and age subject to Vietnam

I was an active anti-war protester in SF/Berkeley and planned for a non-religious CO but was over 300 in Draft lottery.

A fair draft is the surest way to reduce wars and the size and cost of military.

Less people should look to the military as a way to get ahead or make a career.

Military and war is the most useless and inefficient use of humanity and the natural world.

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Response to PufPuf23 (Reply #57)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 04:48 PM

122. There is No Such Thing as a Fair Draft

There is no such thing as a fair draft, never has been, never could be. It is not possible to make such a thing fair.
If you say "no exemptions no matter what" that is going to put a lot of people into harms way who are physically unable to fight.
Even then, there will be champagne units for the well-connected like Dubya.

I was an active anti-war protester in SF/Berkeley

I can just imagine what sort of reception your pro-draft stance would have received there.


and planned for a non-religious CO but was over 300 in Draft lottery.

Would a "fair" draft accomodate conscientious objectors?

A fair draft is the surest way to reduce wars and the size and cost of military.

A draft does not reduce wars, it provides a ready source of cannon fodder for any damn fool war the pols want to start.
The only way it reduces the cost is if you pay the draftees next to nothing. That would cause economic hardship on their families.
It pushes training costs up through the roof, and of course all of those veterans are entitled to benefits.

Less people should look to the military as a way to get ahead or make a career.

Then we certainly should not force people into the military.

Military and war is the most useless and inefficient use of humanity and the natural world.

On that we agree.

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Response to AndyTiedye (Reply #122)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:25 PM

137. There is No Such Thing as a Fair Draft Response

There is no such thing as a fair draft, never has been, never could be. It is not possible to make such a thing fair.
If you say "no exemptions no matter what" that is going to put a lot of people into harms way who are physically unable to fight.
Even then, there will be champagne units for the well-connected like Dubya.

There is no such thing as a "perfectly" fair draft. I am suggesting a lottery for all regardless of sex.

One important item would be to do away with military privatization and mercenaries too and enlistment as a path to citizenship.

Acceptance to the military academies should also be blind and on pure merit.

Legacies such as McCain should go away. Better then would it have been a smart and empathetic man such as Jim Morrison, son of Admiral "Gulf of Tokin" Morrison, I joke. There would be still COs and no one put in positions without the intelligence , physical ability, mentality, or will for the assignment, that would be inefficient. People would work in food services and the like rather than contractors. Champagne unit assignments would be criminal acts. The system would not be "perfect" because the ideal is not possible and humans are an inherently unfair and tribal species. But a system and checks and balances should be designed.


I was an active anti-war protester in SF/Berkeley

I can just imagine what sort of reception your pro-draft stance would have received there.

Then the suggestion would have gone over like a lead balloon and I would have kicked myself in the nuts if someone did not kick me first.

The Vietnam draft was blatantly unfair. I had a choice to register in Contra Costa county (east SF bay area) which was a good draft board for non-religious COs because I was going to high school there or 400 plus miles away in my rural and poverty-stricken home. Fortunately, the location of my high school both politicized and gave me more information. Friends that registered in my rural home had a much greater chance of being drafted or were given a choice of military or jail for minor infractions like under-aged alcohol or disturbance of peace. Where I would register was on an Indian Reservation and the kids were mostly Indians, timber workers, and the chronically poverty stricken. The discrimination between my home draft board vs the white middle and upper middle class registration in Martinez was blatant. I shouted this far and wide at the time.

I grew up in a culture where my Dad went to 8th grade, hunting was a way of life, and I never had a BB gun but was given a 22 rifle for my 10th birthday. Age 17, I had my last hunting license and last killed or shot a firearm (with one exception. I shot cones and twigs from the upper branches of trees for science research at one point 30 years ago). This was heretical. My Dad, an over aged WWII volunteer in January 1942 that spent 3 years in England, France, and Germany never really forgave me for this failure as his only son.

That was then and now is now. Now there is an economic draft. People are not 2 or 3 years and out. Many volunteer as there are no jobs and they get training and travel and can retire in 20 years with a pension, skill set, and favorable hiring and other priviledges. The military has become a good or only career choice. If the children of wealthy and professional class people - those financially secure -had their children at risk and no military privatization of functions. There would be a higher proportion of those drafted in support jobs and not in the line of fire. COs, like some in Vietnam, would have alternative service such as working in the National Forests or Parks and other public works.

Unfortunately, some have to serve in the military. In theory, the rich and secure would have much more personal risk to their families. We need to reduce the militarizism of the USA. I would expect far less veterans putting in 20 years and retirement and more three years and out. This assumes a smaller and less aggressive military as well. I may be wrong but we need something better than now. Kids get out of high school today and the military is their career choice because the military is the only way to get a secure job and education


and planned for a non-religious CO but was over 300 in Draft lottery.

Would a "fair" draft accomodate conscientious objectors?

See above.


A fair draft is the surest way to reduce wars and the size and cost of military.

A draft does not reduce wars, it provides a ready source of cannon fodder for any damn fool war the pols want to start.
The only way it reduces the cost is if you pay the draftees next to nothing. That would cause economic hardship on their families.
It pushes training costs up through the roof, and of course all of those veterans are entitled to benefits.

A "fair" draft can be a pressure to reduce wars and make more people look at our bullying and violent foreign policies. In theory, again this may be wrong, there would be far fewer victims of an economic draft and fewer veterans putting in 20 years for retirement and a greater percentage of 3 and out.

Less people should look to the military as a way to get ahead or make a career.

Then we certainly should not force people into the military.

I can see military or alternative service for the unfortunate luck of the draw or those that truly want the experience. One would naive to think we do not need a military. My rough proposal would do away with the often dishonest recruitment process we have now as well as the economic draft. Again, individuals would not be put in positions without the physical ability, intelligence, mentality, or will for there jobs and would have the option of alternative service.


Military and war is the most useless and inefficient use of humanity and the natural world.

On that we agree.

Yea! We agree. IMHO the USA needs to be a far less militarized society. I believe now that a more fair but still imperfect lottery system with alternative service option would be a pressure to reduce the size and cost of military and cause the secure and decision-making individuals to have more thought against violence as foreign policy. If the USA was actually under attack, I think there probably would be plenty of volunteers eager to protect their familes and lives. Like my Dad in WWII. I likely would have thought much different during Vietnam if the USA was under invasion.

Good day to you.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:33 PM

8. Well, look at the following things

 

A stimulus bill was passed. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was repealed. Gay marriage is in the process of being more and more commonly legal throughout the United States, the Affordable Care Act got passed, and it looks like gun control and illegal immigration legislation may get passed. The Children's Health Insurance Affordable Act was passed. A new START treaty was signed.

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Response to OceanEcosystem (Reply #8)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:53 PM

35. Yes, but notice the parallels to the right wing's shiny trinkets.

On the right, politicians bloviate about abortion, prayer in schools, family values, etc.. to draw in low information voters with intangible emotional issues. All shiny trinkets having no economic value to their base, while at the same time promoting policies that shift anything of economic or affluential value into the hands of corporations and the rich.

I don't really see to much difference between that strategy, and the dem strategy.

Yes, the Affordable Care Act was better than nothing. But notice that single payer was taken off the table before the process even began because single payer would have squeezed the health insurance companies' profits. And every single instance, without exception that I can note, when the good of the public had to be balanced against the special interests, the dems have bent over.

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Response to GoneFishin (Reply #35)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:34 PM

46. +1

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Response to GoneFishin (Reply #35)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:42 PM

92. +2

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Response to GoneFishin (Reply #35)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:02 PM

98. The DLC won.

They drowned the left in their bahtub.

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Response to OceanEcosystem (Reply #8)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:33 AM

66. Yes, let's look at this by all means.

 

The proposed stimulus was at least 2/3 too small in toto and a majority of that inadequate measure was completely ineffective, non-stimulative, tax cuts (the only prescription in the republican handbook).

Gay Marriage is great, if not decades too late, and kudos to Vice President Biden for forcing the issue.

The ACA is not much more than an incredibly lucrative blowjob to the insurance industry that, even though it still hasn't yet been fully implemented, has resulted in increased costs, dozens of lawsuits, and hundreds of exceptions for businesses big enough to make political "contributions" while small businesses are trying to figure out how to pay for it along with the low-income workers that are lucky enough to not be part of the 15 - 20 million just written off and don't even figure into it.

Gun control is nothing but a sop to quell a momentary blip in awareness caused by white suburbanites being slaughtered. Once they've got whatever useless measure through and the slaughter goes back to the poor and the brown in the neighborhoods we don't live in, we can all go back to ignoring the real problem.

Undocumented immigration follows the same familiar pattern, keep the virtual slaves working to make the rich richer and wages down, then hold out a phantom carrot for them, give it a nice, and ironically appropriate name, the Dream Act, then tell them that if they are willing to sacrifice their kids and go to the back of the line, then maybe someday they can stay legally.

As for the women, well fuck them their only girls anyway. Don't believe in the magical sky daddy? Fuck you too. Want to exercise you right to control your own body? Too bad, so sad, sucks to be you. But some booze and get a prescription, they pay the freight around here.

As for START, we don't need nuclear bad guys to frighten you into bankruptcy anymore, we have the perfect new bogey-man, the terrorist. So perhaps maybe someday we will reduce our capacity to end all life on earth to 10 or 15 times.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:34 PM

10. I do, but I am a left wing moonbats

Just ask RW manny.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #10)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:50 PM

12. It's Third Way Manny. There is a big difference, Moonbat.

With a name like Moonbat you might be related to Frank Zappa.

I am right there with you.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:50 PM

13. The draft is bullshit

but the rest of us are still here. We've just been silenced by the corporate media.

But no draft. Not now, not unless the barbarian hordes are pouring over our borders. It is one of those things that will never be equal. Ever.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #13)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:02 PM

17. Actually, I think we've been through this before.

I certainly respect your opinion, and hate war, but I think that the draft still serves as something of a safeguard against ill-conceived adventures. And I would argue for no exemptions.

The alternative is to force kids into service by purely economic means.

By way of information, I was drafted into the Army in 1967 and served in the infantry in Vietnam.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #17)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:16 PM

22. You hit the nail on the head. If there had been a draft, it would have been much tougher

for dipshit to invade Iraq.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #22)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:10 PM

40. No it wouldn't.


Of course it wouldn't. The entire nation was frothing at the time.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #40)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:25 PM

43. Yes it would. And by the way we werent all "frothing". Many of us were in the streets

protesting. Hello. And thirdly, those that "frothed" did so because they were going to be affected. The draft would have open their fucking eyes to the fact that their children might be sent off to fight Dickhead Cheney's war.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #43)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:18 AM

130. They Went to War Despite Massive Demonstrations All Over the Country

Many of us were in the streets protesting.


Yes we were.

Hello. And thirdly, those that "frothed" did so because they were going to be affected.


Those "frothing" in favor of the war (among the general public) believed the lies about WMDs and 9/11 being Saddam's doing.
If it meant sending their kids off to war, they would have been fine with that.

You will never get the children of the 1% unless they want to go.

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Response to AndyTiedye (Reply #130)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:51 AM

135. The protests didn't last long enough....

And that was because there was no draft. We had years of anti-war demonstrations in the US during Vietnam, and that was because of the draft.

My personal belief is that in order to declare war, or send in more than 1,000 troops for longer than 5 days, congress must initiate a draft, AND raise taxes to pay for the cost of the war.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #135)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 01:56 AM

138. The Protests Ended Due to the Impending 2004 Election

Nobody wanted a repeat of 1972.

Besides, they weren't working. Without any media coverage, the protests made us feel good but nobody else noticed.

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Response to AndyTiedye (Reply #138)

Thu Feb 21, 2013, 08:14 AM

139. AndyTieDye...First anti-war protest in US...Oct., 1962

4 students were shot and killed in May of 1970 and yet 300,000 showed up for a protest in Washington, DC in 1971.

The early protests received little media coverage, they didn't stop. There was the election of 1964 and the election of 1968, they didn't stop the protests. The simple fact is that because most people are not directly affected by the war, they don't care enough to protest and create civil disturbances.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #139)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 01:45 AM

140. Not a Very Compelling Argument for the Effectiveness of Mass Protests for Ending Wars

People were protesting the whole time but the war went on, and on.

The protests continued during the elections, and were quite large by the 1968 and 1972 election cycles.
The 1968 election went badly for us, and the 1972 election went horribly.
In 1972 we had a candidate that fully embraced the anti-war movement and was fully embraced by it.
A very large majority of Americans wanted the war to end by that time. We lost 49 states.

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Response to AndyTiedye (Reply #140)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 10:20 AM

141. Because of the messenger...not the message.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #141)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:03 AM

143. We Have to Make Do with the Messengers

that they allow to live.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #40)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:48 PM

93. Nothing like knowing your kid won't have to go

as an incentive to froth-stirring.

And I think the war was a helluva lot less popular than it appeared to be. The news media were full managed. How many stories did you see about the demonstrations worldwide? There were all kinds of middle-class old farts joining the kids & obstructing traffic, even in the small towns of northern Wisconsin.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:56 PM

128. They Would Have Invaded Iran if They Had Enough Cannon Fodder

If there had been a draft, we would be at war with Iran.

They can always make up some BS to get us into war. It works every time.
The draft never stopped them from doing this.
It makes it easier, since the mechanism to funnel cannon fodder into the sausage machine is already in place.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:33 AM

132. I don't think anyone can argue with that:

"If there had been a draft, it would have been much tougher for dipshit to invade Iraq."

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #17)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:36 PM

30. Absolutely no exemptions...

Because the rich always have 'connections'.

My brother was drafted in 1967...glad you made it back.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #30)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:22 PM

73. Total Agreement and Noblesse Oblige

Even some of the royalty in Europe recognized they had to lead from the front in wars. That was part of the aspect of Noblesse Oblige. Today, in our country we went from Noblesse Oblige to the Cheney Chickenhawk, deferment gang whose rallying cry is "I had something better to do."

I am infantry soldier, airborne ranger. Sometimes my feelings of service are replaced with feelings I got suckered. Oh well.

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Response to kairos12 (Reply #73)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:44 PM

79. I sincerely thank you for your willingness to serve...

and I also appreciate your sometime feeling of having been suckered. My brother was on his second tod when he was killed. When he was home for R & R between tours, I couldn't help but feel he had been suckered as well. I kept it to myself as there was nothing to be done about it.

I think I detest the Chickenhawks as much as I do child molesters...so many of our young service people are only a few years beyond childhood themselves.

The generals don't support a draft because of all the discipline problems they had during Vietnam.... IMHO, most of the generals have devolved into Chickenhawks themselves...If they had to lead from the front, I wonder how many of them would be so willing to support wars and 'surges'.

My sincere best wishes for your continued safety.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #79)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:48 PM

80. My condolences on the passing of your brother

I would like to think he died fighting for the very best of the values our country can demonstrate. Those values have shown through with Lincoln, RFK, JFK, MLK, and Rosa Parks. When I think of them I feel much less played.

I will keep your brother in my thoughts as a fallen comrade.

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Response to kairos12 (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:57 PM

82. Thank you....

Yes,, it is always better to focus on the positive. It is the job of those of us at home to work harder to keep fine people like yourself out of harm's way whenever it is unnecessary to put you into harm's way.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:28 PM

126. The rich are multinational

and when their kids are teenagers, the whole family will simply decamp for someplace the kids can finish their educations in how to be movers and shakers without being threatened by a draft.

The rest of us will have to get creative.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #126)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:58 AM

136. The super rich are multinational....

We really don't need to worry about them.... It's the children and grandchildren of our congress critters that need to be added to the canon fodder pool. The children of the very well off. Plus, along with the draft I'd pass a law saying congress must raise taxes on the top 10% to pay for said war. That would make everyone think long and hard. IMHO

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 12:00 AM

129. You Were Exempt from the Draft Because You Were Female

Last edited Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Women weren't even allowed to volunteer for what men were being forced to do.

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Response to AndyTiedye (Reply #129)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 09:45 AM

134. Yep...

but that didn't stop us from joining our brothers, friends, and lovers in protesting. Outdated mores.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:56 PM

14. Dead Wrong About the Draft

I remember the left, we protested against the draft because it provided cannon fodder for unjust wars.
There was nothing fair about the draft. As Dick Cheney.
Yet eliminating the medical exemption that Cheney exploited would be grossly unfair to those who are truly unable to serve for medical reasons. The unequal access to medical care in this country also ensures that many such conditions go undiagnosed.

There is no way a draft could ever be fair.

Some supporters of the draft point to the draft in Israel as an example, but the Ultra-Orthodox are exempt from it! Some example!

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Response to AndyTiedye (Reply #14)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:29 PM

28. Ask Dick Cheney, Bush, Rush Limbaugh, Dan Quayle, Bill Clinton (and so on and so forth).

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:56 PM

15. Interesting that when I ask the "non-left" Democrats what they stand for

they refuse to answer. I ask to explain how they differ from the left and they refuse to answer.

Us lefties are here. Keeping a low profile as the Democratic Party has a bounty for us. But there are millions of us working outside the party thru organizations like moveon, PCCC, PDA, etc. to reform the Democratic Party.

We arent looking for a third party, we are looking to kick out the damn Republicans that came creeping in when their party went to shit.

And by the way. If the Democratic Party loses ground in 2014 like they did in 2010, it will be because the centrists arent too worried. The left will be fighting all the way.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #15)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:09 PM

19. The Centrist Manifesto:

CENTRISM!!!.... because it is so EASY!
You don't have to STAND for ANYTHING,
and get to insult those who DO!

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:13 PM

20. Perfect. They are cowards, the lot. nm

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #20)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:44 PM

32. Whatever THEY tell me is "In the Middle"...

... is Good Enough for ME!

If both the Left and the Right hate it,
then it MUST be GOOD,
so I'm FOR it!!!!

(I've actually seen THAT rationale justifying policy being sold as a "compromise" posted at DU more than once.)



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Response to bvar22 (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:03 PM

54. .....

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #19)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:40 AM

67. Because we already own our own party, so we'll just buy yours.

 

After all, if you own both teams, you can't lose.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #67)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:40 AM

72. To own both parties (they have the wealth) to control government is so blatantly obvious that I

have a hard time understanding why some Democrats are fooled.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #19)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:07 PM

86. And you don't even have to make sense

because you can't, none of it came from your own mind! It is that easy. Said loudly enough with enough bullying it becomes even fun!

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 10:59 AM

71. Yeah, that's been my experience too.......

And if they DO get pushed into some sort of commitment on issues, it's warmed over Reaganite free market bullshit with some added element of social issue libertarianism.

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Response to socialist_n_TN (Reply #71)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 07:58 PM

117. You've actually seen them get pushed into committing to something?

I'm shocked, I've never seen any of our "pragmatic" centrists stand for anything. Honestly, I sometimes prefer dealing with libertarians. At least they are honest and stand for something. It's an extremely foolish and childish something, but it's more than I can say for the centrists here.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #117)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:22 PM

124. Not really or at least not often.......

I mostly refer to the occasional posts I see them make responding to issues that are going on. THAT'S where I see the warmed over Reaganomics. And when they get called on that, THEN we get the, "I am too left because I believe in gay marriage." Or "I believe in first trimester abortion rights", etc. Like those things, as important as they are, makes somebody a leftist. But it's a seriously rare thing to even get that out of them.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:05 PM

84. They can't answer you

because they stand for whatever the leaders of the party stand for and those have changed so fast it leaves your head spinning.

Working from the left in a tea party state. Continuing with the same human values I had when I was growing up. Equality for all in all ways and helping others to be able to gain that equality. For me that is the basic moral value this party used to stand for and the one that will get it back on track. It should not be so hard to attain but when both parties work against it it becomes head bangingly frustrating and almost impossible. We need an actual liberal leader who will speak out and follow through (that follow through is pretty important IMO).

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Response to MuseRider (Reply #84)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:18 PM

89. If you really want to stump a centrist is ask them how they stand on indefinite detention.

Should be real easy for a so-called centrist to answer. I would hope that only the right wing-nuts would support giving the president the authority to detain US citizens indefinitely w/o due process.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #89)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:52 PM

94. I would hope so as well

but I think that is a HUGE assumption these days. Due process is not supported much at all anymore, at least from what I am getting from the people around me.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:56 PM

127. To be fair sometimes they are able to recite the weekly party-line talking points and that

kind of passes for "believing in stuff".

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:59 PM

16. never onboard with a draft, ever

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Response to Puzzledtraveller (Reply #16)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:02 PM

36. Nor am I as it is just another form

 

of involuntary servitude.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:06 PM

18. Not too long ago, THAT was Mainstream-Center Democratic Party!

"In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

*The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

*The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

*The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

*The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

*The right of every family to a decent home;

*The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

*The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

*The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens."--- FDR, Economic Bill of Rights


Please note that FDR specified the above as Basic Human Rights,
and NOT Commodities to be sold to Americans by For Profit Corporations!

I can remember when the above values were Democratic Party Values.
These RIGHTS were to be OWNED by The Public (Common Wealth) and administered by our Government of The People on a non-profit basis.
I can remember when Voting FOR The Democrat was voting FOR the above Values.
Sadly, this is no longer true.

The above "RIGHTS" have been Commoditized and Privatized.
The Wealth Disparity continues to widen under Republicans AND Democrats.
These RIGHTS have been distributed to For Profit Corporations (the 1%) to be SOLD For a Profit.


---bvar22
A Mainstream-Center FDR/LBJ Working Class Democratic Party Activist for over 46 years,
now labeled a "Fucking Retard", a member of The Fringe Left Wing, and worse.
I haven't changed.



"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone


photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed







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Response to bvar22 (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:23 PM

26. Thank you for that.

Tears come knowing that real Democrats are still about.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:07 PM

38. We have moved so far to the right that FDR

 

seems like a radical these days.

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Response to Bainbridge Bear (Reply #38)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:52 PM

51. FDR? Hell, NIXON seems like a radical now.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #51)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:02 PM

53. Nixon wasn't he the commie hippie who created the EPA?

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #18)

Mon Feb 25, 2013, 11:33 AM

144. BVAR thanks for the reminder list...

The above "RIGHTS" have been Commoditized and Privatized.
The Wealth Disparity continues to widen under Republicans AND Democrats.
These RIGHTS have been distributed to For Profit Corporations (the 1%) to be SOLD For a Profit.


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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:14 PM

21. Yep I remember it.

I Think it has been murged into the Borg.
I can only think of that speach that guy gave on The Newsroom...We were great once...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:21 PM

23. What is going on in WI is what happens during a Leftist drought!

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:21 PM

24. Still here

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:28 PM

27. The Left in this country was essentially destroyed in the '60s

Last edited Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:02 PM - Edit history (2)

through assassinations, violent crackdowns, and COINTELPRO from without, and through hubris and factionalism from within.

And we're all now literally the poorer for it.

There was a brief moment in the mid-'70s when the Left ascended after the power elites kind of imploded from scandals and a hugely unpopular failed war...but the elites recovered quickly as they always tend to do.

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Response to deutsey (Reply #27)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:24 PM

42. +1000. nt.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:32 PM

29. I do

and I miss it to. It'll always be with you till the end it's just a bizarre world now to think those are fringe ideals/concepts.

Hang in there, maybe we'll see those things come back.

-p

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Response to Phlem (Reply #29)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:39 PM

31. Yep...some good tunes going 'round in my head...

somehow they sound "refreshed" these days. Sort of going back to Woodie Guthrie...and after.

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Response to KoKo (Reply #31)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:50 PM

50. Winds of the Old Days

WINDS OF THE OLD DAYS
(Words and Music by Joan Baez)

The lady's adrift in a foreign land
Singing on issues both humble and grand
A decade flew past her and there on the page
She read that the prince had returned to the stage
Hovering near treacherous waters
A friend saw her drifting and caught her
Unguarded fantasies flying too far
Memories tumbling like sweets from a jar

And take me down to the harbor now
Grapes of the summer are low on the bough
Ghosts of my history will follow me there
And the winds of the old days will blow through my hair

Breath on an undying ember
It doesn't take much to remember
Those eloquent songs from the good old days
That set us to marching with banners ablaze
But reporters, there's no sense in prying
Our blue-eyed son's been denying
The truths that are wrapped in a mystery
The sixties are over so set him free

And take me down to the harbor now
Grapes of the summer are low on the bough
Ghosts of my history will follow me there
And the winds of the old days will blow through my hair

Why do I sit the autumnal judge
Years of self-righteousness will not budge
Singer or savior, it was his to choose
Which of us knows what was his to lose
Because idols are best when they're made of stone
A savior's a nuisance to live with at home
Stars often fall, heroes go unsung
And martyrs most certainly die too young

So thank you for writing the best songs
Thank you for righting a few wrongs
You're a savage gift on a wayward bus
But you stepped down and you sang to us

And get you down to the harbor now
Most of the sour grapes are gone from the bough
Ghosts of Johanna will visit you there
And the winds of the old days will blow through your hair

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #50)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:38 PM

62. Yes...

lovely and sad that...

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:45 PM

33. you'd think democrats would oppose for-profit prisons nt

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:51 PM

34. Good stuff (nt).

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Response to DirkGently (Reply #34)


Response to highspeed (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:29 PM

45. I find it interesting you decided to callout a member on your first post.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:06 PM

37. Left is when we don't lawyer up to explain away torture, spying, assassinations,


and unilateralism as part of Democracy.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:07 PM

39. Especially the one on the draft....

"Left is when we have a draft that ensures that the kids of the rich die in equal numbers with the poor in our wars. "
Could not agree more. This one is important.

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Response to 4bucksagallon (Reply #39)

Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:38 AM

133. There Aren't Enough Rich Kids for That, Even if You Sent Them ALL to the Front

The poor make up a lot more than 1% of the population, and they have a lot more kids per capita.

Of course the rich would send their kids overseas rather then let them be fed into the sausage machine.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)


Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:41 PM

48. I miss it too

There will come a time when things will get so bad that people will look to the left again. Sadly, many people will have to suffer for a long time before that day comes again.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:45 PM

49. This left supports an "Army of None"

I would prefer that they call for a war and no one shows up.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:06 PM

55. If the left was not left to be here now

What would America look like today?

Cheney would be serving his fourth term.

Social Security would be cut to the bone.

We would still be occupying Iraq.

The EPA would be wiped out.

There would be at least two more major wars.

Gasoline would be over $5 a gallon.

We would have more money being spent on nuclear power and less on solar and other alternatives.

Just about any progress made in the last 40 years would be wiped out. It only took Cheney 8 years to make the country go backwards.

***********

I wonder: How does the right see the left? From my experience these are some of the ways the left are seen.

Big Gov. intruding on individual freedoms. (But the right loves this aspect via laws against abortion, drugs, sex education, and building codes)

Left wants to take money from the rich and give to the poor. (So then we should end public roads, make defense penniless, end regulations on pollution?)

Left wants to regulate corporations (So we should let polluters go free to pollute, slavery to continue unabated, and bad products be sold?)

**********

If it wasn't for the left and social security and medicare, the country would economically shrivel and die. If it wasn't for environmental laws we would all be dying from pollution. If it wasn't for the left Cheney would have made this country into a nazi styled fascist country that would have made Hitler proud.

So to those who think we are to Left in this country I say go live in Somalia you traitorous bastards.


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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:13 PM

56. How Last-Century of you, to even ask such a quaint question.

The Left died on Dis-Occupied Wall Street,
like a brave last gasp it was,
and a lovely sight to behold & be part of.

Now? We are all OWS I guess, in our way.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #56)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 09:01 AM

70. Actually, I think the Occupy movement is far from dead.

And it's one of the things that give me hope.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #70)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:16 PM

112. I agree at least that the jury is still out

on Occupy... as I said recently elsewhere on DU.

Dead or not, it's already done TONS of good stuff, beyond "changing
the conversation", like exposing so graphically how beautiful it gets,
when citizens refuse to concede their constitutional rights to speech and
assembly, but instead, actually exercises those rights, in order to
petition the government for grievances. It also exposed how butt-
ugly our Corporatist Oligarchy responds with their militarized police,
when citizens stand up to be counted.

I believe books are just now being written about it, as we speak, though
I can't be certain, as I know of none in particular.


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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:39 PM

58. Agree! in all but draft, which I fear will drive more American Exceptionalism, but I would consider

a draft if there was a Peace Department that is equal but separate from DoD.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:00 PM

59. Left means pledging to NOT cut Soc. Security, Medicare and Medicaid...

...only one Dem from the WA State Reps in Congress has promised not to vote for anything that cuts these programs.

Basically, modern Dems are equivalent to Republicans of 20-30 years ago. We don't have a liberal party in America. The Dems are the conservatives, and the GOP is a right-wing-wacko group.

Sad to see what's become of the United States...

...and what can be salvaged at this point?

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Response to ReallyIAmAnOptimist (Reply #59)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:42 PM

91. Actually, pledging to "Not CUT" SS and Medicare is Reagan Republican, NOT "Left",

...and the Democratic Party leadership won't even go as far as Ronald (Fu*****) Reagan in pledging to protect Social Security.
THAT is how FAR to the Conservative Right our Party Leadership has lunged.



The Left, along with the great MAJORITY of Americans (when polled on the issue),
want to INCREASE and EXPAND Medicare and Social Security.

Most Americans agree that THE RICH should PAY MORE into SS & Medicare.





You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their rhetoric, promises, or excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:02 PM

60. the dem party remembers the left every four years.

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Response to KG (Reply #60)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:29 PM

76. Yeah, you got that right!

The rest of the times we're "fuckin' retards" or something like that.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:40 PM

63. A few years ago, Charlie Rangel proposed bringing back the draft

to end the chickenhawks. His proposal didn't go anywhere.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:51 PM

64. This is why the GOP is no longer needed by the Elites....

The dems have moved so far to the right on economic issues that the Wealthy Elites can advance their agenda without the Repubs. This has the added benefit of allowing the " People " to believe that they have won a few victories. Then, as loyal Dems, they will cheer as constitutional rights are stripped, social programs are cut and the State turns its back ( and its intelligence gathering apparatus ) on the populace.
We will still be allowed to fight over women's rights, gay rights, and other non-financial issues. We will be allowed to fight over gun rights, but sooner or later they will be lost too. Once America has been been converted to third-world status, gun rights will have to go; do you really think rich people want all those newly created poor people running around with guns?
Unions have to go, too. Don't want people organizing. People must be divided.

The left still exists, it just doesn't have a following. Its easier to just go with the status quo; be indignant when you are supposed to and silent when required. Remember: You "won" the election. If Social security benefits are cut,it must be necessary. If the Post Office is dissolved because it is broke( because it is required to fund its pension holding at a 75 year level ), its not just to bust the union.

Its necessary.

Because you "won" the election.

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Response to dtom67 (Reply #64)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:24 PM

74. I couldn't agree with you more

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Response to dtom67 (Reply #64)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:27 PM

75. A big part of the strategy is to not allow comments like yours to see the light of day

on TV. So even "liberal" stations like MSNBC never put it all out there like that so that the bigger picture makes sense. But I'm glad you can post it on DU, and I hope everyone reads it.

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Response to dtom67 (Reply #64)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:40 PM

78. Great post. Tell it!

Here, have my last heart...

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Response to dtom67 (Reply #64)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:14 PM

88. Maybe you should make this an OP?

Just a suggestion. I would really like your comments to be read by more DUers.

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Response to dtom67 (Reply #64)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 05:51 PM

109. +1

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:41 PM

65. I'll agree that corporations are people

...when one of them is executed for murder.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:14 AM

68. I miss being out in left field

with what once seemed like a majority of the Dem party.

Too many Dems play center field now.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:05 AM

69. the GOP and the swooners are moving the left to the middle

and it completely fucking SUCKS

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:35 PM

77. This is what happens when you don't care about Dems moving to the center/right.

Of course ...it doesn't help to throw professional progressive lefties under the bus either. Oh well ...people need idols ...I guess. When you don't care about people you become lost ...as a person and as a political party.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:54 PM

81. The draft ensured that the children of the wealthy died in equal numbers?

I understand the theory just do not for one second believe that ever worked in practice.

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Response to abelenkpe (Reply #81)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:05 PM

85. It certainly didn't work that way in Vietnam.

However, it seems that most "rich kids" went off to fight in WWII. So had our politicians. Truman (WWI), Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, even Reagan, & BushI had all served on active duty in the military. Carter served after WWII, being too young for the war.

I don't count BushII's TANG "service" as anything but a draft-dodging maneuver, BTW.

I think we could write a law that makes sure the rich kids share in the risks & misery of military service in case of war. And I think that if we did that, it would decrease the enthusiasm for war among those like Willard, who demonstrated in favor of Vietnam & then got "missionary" deferments.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #85)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 02:40 AM

121. Most of Them Probably Volunteered

However, it seems that most "rich kids" went off to fight in WWII. So had our politicians. Truman (WWI), Ike, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, Carter, even Reagan, & BushI had all served on active duty in the military. Carter served after WWII, being too young for the war.


It's likely that many of them volunteered, and the rest made no effort to avoid service. Our territory had been attacked.
That war had the support of virtually the entire country.

I don't count BushII's TANG "service" as anything but a draft-dodging maneuver, BTW.


There have always been postings like that available to the well-connected, and always will be.
They may serve, but they won't be in harm's way unless they want to be.
You cannot legislate that sort of thing out of existence.

I think we could write a law that makes sure the rich kids share in the risks & misery of military service in case of war. And I think that if we did that, it would decrease the enthusiasm for war among those like Willard, who demonstrated in favor of Vietnam & then got "missionary" deferments.


You could write a law, but there is no way you could enforce it. Mittens himself is a good example. Not only did he get a religious deferment, he also went to a foreign country that would not extradite draft evaders, just in case his deferment got turned down.
Easy to do if you have that kind of money.

Eliminating the medical exemption because some wealthy people abuse it would be a terrible injustice to people with real disabilities (and a death sentence for many of them).

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:03 PM

83. Much of that is "Liberal" - not "Left" (not that I don't thank you...)

I thank you for the thread ... it's a good reminder, but I wouldn't call those stances "Left" - at least not with a "Capitol L." They strike me as more or less classic Liberalism - and, for that matter, in polls, when divorced from political connections, most people agree with many of them.

I could go down the list, but will suffice myself with noting that "Left" is not "when the government regulates the excesses of the rich and extends a helping hand to those at the lower margins of society, guaranteeing a chance at a decent life for all, rather than clamping down on the poor and helping the rich." The Left does not seek to ameliorate the differences between rich and poor, it seeks to eradicate them.

I'm left. I consider most "liberal" proposals sops and disguises to make sure the Oligarchy is secure from the rest of us. I consider that to be the function of Liberalism. Most humans just want to be reasonably comfortable and secure - give them that, and they won't start to wonder who should own the means of production, or question the Police State, or worry too much about the mostly invisible outliers like those in poverty in inner cities or deep in rural country (look at the 50's for a reasonably good example of what I mean).

Nonetheless, I thank you for the thread ... a good reminder of what the D Party used to at least nominally stand for, and where it is now.

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Response to bread_and_roses (Reply #83)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 02:22 PM

97. Maybe.

But when so-called "centrists" co-opt the terms "liberal" and "progressive" to mean neoliberalism, I use "left" to differentiate myself from them.

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Response to bread_and_roses (Reply #83)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 06:17 PM

123. Well put bread and roses.........

Well put and of course, I agree.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 02:16 PM

95. I'm still over here on the left.

I'm now anathema to my own party.

I didn't go anywhere. I was thrown under the bus as part of the "fringe," the "loony left," who wouldn't get in bed with neoliberal Democrats.

I miss having a party I thought might represent me, in some small ways, at some times.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 02:16 PM

96. I miss it too.....

and will keep working to wards it.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:06 PM

99. I love the liberal left, have been part of it all of my life. But the far left has been slowly

Last edited Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:58 AM - Edit history (1)

replacing it with their outrages demands and accusations of the President and his government because he just hasn't done exactly what they want him to do. They seem to over look at that the looney republican party which has morphed in to some kind of Neanderthal movement of knuckle draggers that their sole purpose is to block every logical initiative that the POTUS has put forward and ask them to pass, or at least take a up or down vote on some of them. Yet, the fringe left has their agenda and they want it now.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #99)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:21 PM

100. Care to list some of these outrageous demands? n/t

 

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #99)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 08:00 PM

118. Far-left? Please, tell me where you've seen them at?

I think what you call far-left is what used to be called liberalism. The far-left has never been allowed a voice in the national debate.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #118)

Mon Feb 18, 2013, 12:56 AM

119. Might try looking in the mirror, maybe? Go far to the left and you eventually will meet the

extreme right. Just sayin'.

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Response to demosincebirth (Reply #119)

Mon Feb 18, 2013, 01:11 AM

120. Oh that is such a bullshit line.

It just shows your ignorance. If you actually think fascism and socialism are similar then I really don't know what to say. It sounds like something Glen Beck would say.

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Response to white_wolf (Reply #120)

Tue Feb 19, 2013, 11:24 PM

125. they are both bullshit, but the logic is there. Hitler and Stalin were complete opposites and

look what fascism and communism accomplished...complete domination of their people. True or false

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:25 PM

101. We think left is someplace on our right, but damn, somedays we can't tell our

left from our right!

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 04:32 PM

103. HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!!








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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 04:33 PM

104. DURec

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 04:39 PM

105. "Left is when civil rights are extended to human beings"-One nitpick...

It's not just that corporations are legally classified with the rights (but not the obligations) of "persons." It is that the wealthiest Americans-who are disproportionately white men-have so much power, compared to the vast majority of people, period. There is also great inequality within the rest of the population, as well.

What ever happened to political and public conversation about racism and sexism, and how those inevitably interact and influence social class?

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:05 PM

110. Left is when the rule of law is followed and, at a minimum, war criminals are prosecuted.

 

Left is when no Chief of Staff for the President refers to liberals as being "fucking retarded."

Left is when no one demands that liberals and progressives march in lock-step like the authoritarian Republicans and Republican-wannabes.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:31 PM

113. Thing is, once you've taken the 'red pill'

there is no going back to sleep.


The Red Pill is on the Left

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:33 PM

114. Yes, I remember it, and I miss it. eom

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:40 PM

115. I'm afraid we will get another reminder in 2014. n/t

 

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Original post)

Fri Feb 22, 2013, 06:20 PM

142. And most importantly (to me anyway)......

Left is when workers OWN the means of production.

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