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Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:16 PM

PSA: Israel does not control the U.S. Government.

Does it have influence on the U.S. Government? Sure. Does it have undue influence or too much influence on U.S. foreign policy? I believe it does.

But that is not even close to the same thing as claiming that Israel controls the U.S. government.

And I shouldn't need to explain that that kind of claim has a long and sordid history. It's perilously close to the classic anti-semitic trope that Jews are behind the scene puppeteers of governments.

Btw, just check out a few of these links from a google search of Israel controls America.

It's as ugly a display of bigotry as one could ever find.


http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=ww&q=%20#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=israel+controls+america&oq=+Israel+controls+&gs_l=hp.1.0.0l9.2815.6669.1.9233.16.16.0.0.0.0.227.2213.4j11j1.16.0.les%3Bcrnk_timediscounta.1.0.0...1.1.3.hp.YSIALxKd1J0&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42553238,d.dmg&fp=650e83a55f34ea61&biw=1240&bih=553

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Reply PSA: Israel does not control the U.S. Government. (Original post)
cali Feb 2013 OP
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #1
WCGreen Feb 2013 #17
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #38
WCGreen Feb 2013 #40
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #32
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #39
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #44
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #45
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #49
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #50
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #52
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #54
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #59
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #60
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #61
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #62
Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #64
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #65
Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #66
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #67
Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #68
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #69
Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #70
Enrique Feb 2013 #2
DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #3
quinnox Feb 2013 #4
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #5
quinnox Feb 2013 #11
AverageJoe90 Feb 2013 #12
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #13
pennylane100 Feb 2013 #14
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #16
pennylane100 Feb 2013 #26
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #28
pennylane100 Feb 2013 #33
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #41
pennylane100 Feb 2013 #55
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #56
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #27
NightWatcher Feb 2013 #6
PCIntern Feb 2013 #9
Comrade Grumpy Feb 2013 #15
LeftishBrit Feb 2013 #78
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #34
JackRiddler Feb 2013 #43
cali Feb 2013 #21
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #30
oberliner Feb 2013 #8
quinnox Feb 2013 #10
TwilightGardener Feb 2013 #7
DevonRex Feb 2013 #18
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #19
DevonRex Feb 2013 #23
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #35
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #42
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #46
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #47
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #51
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #53
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #57
Behind the Aegis Feb 2013 #58
R. Daneel Olivaw Feb 2013 #63
pennylane100 Feb 2013 #20
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #29
tnvoter Feb 2013 #81
Warren Stupidity Feb 2013 #22
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #24
RedCappedBandit Feb 2013 #25
TomClash Feb 2013 #31
cali Feb 2013 #73
TomClash Feb 2013 #79
RobertEarl Feb 2013 #36
TomClash Feb 2013 #37
RobertEarl Feb 2013 #48
cali Feb 2013 #74
helveticas Feb 2013 #71
cali Feb 2013 #76
TomClash Feb 2013 #80
LittleBlue Feb 2013 #72
cali Feb 2013 #75
LeftishBrit Feb 2013 #77

Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:34 PM

1. So few care. The false Bill Maher quote has so many squealing "SEE! SEE!"

Influence? You bet! So does GB, SA, and several others, but those, for some reason, don't matter. I disagree with your assessment about too much influence, but you, unlike so many at least say "foreign policy!" It has become now that Israel controls all our policies and it is absurd.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:16 PM

17. I believe the difference between GB and Israel is that GB does not live in an area

that demands a constant defensive posture. Israel does and so any actions they take can easily be miscued.

Having said that, over the years, I believe some people in the far right in both Israel and the US over conflate situations in order to drag the US and Israeli populations into a more offensive posture.

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Response to WCGreen (Reply #17)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:01 PM

38. Does living in an area that demands a "constant defensive posture"


legitimize colonizing other peoples territory?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #38)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:11 PM

40. Sure doesn't, but the fact is that corner of the earth has been fought over since people

recorded history.

My statement is simply a matter of how the situation stands right now.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:02 PM

32. The false Bill Maher quote? Was something attributed to him that was false, or did


he claim something which was false?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #32)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:09 PM

39. The quote being used in a few posts here are false in that he didn't say it.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #39)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:17 PM

44. Well he did say it. It makes for interesting dialog.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #44)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:19 PM

45. No, he didn't. I suggest you go to that lie of thread and open it.

Open the link provided, it will have what Bill said in a gray box, and it isn't "Israel controls the US."

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #45)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:24 PM

49. What Bill Maher said.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/bill-maher-takes-on-gop-opposition-to-hagel-over-israel-the-israelis-are-controlling-our-government/

Bill Maher: "Based on every statement that I have heard out of any republican in the last two years, the Israelis are controlling our government."

That's verbatim.


On edit: I missed a comma.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #49)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:30 PM

50. That is not the quote. YOU changed it!

there is no ellipsis, there is a comma!

“Based on every statement I’ve heard from every Republican in the last two years, the Israelis are controlling our government.”


THAT is the real quote, and it means he is saying THE REPUBLICANS are the ones saying the government is controlled by Israel. He is NOT saying he believes it nor is he saying it is TRUE, which is what you and others are desperately trying to make him say!

Now, WHOOOOOOO said the US is controlled by Israel?

The Republicans or Bill Maher?

Tick tock.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #50)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:40 PM

52. You really need to take a break. You are becoming unhinged.


I just wrote down what he said. If you can't handle it, and want a comma then put in a comma and take break.

There is no desperation in my post, but you are apparently becoming over agitated.
The only desperation is that you are having a fit about what an HBO comic said.

I don't take what he said for gospel either way.

I didn't see the comma in the transcript and though it was a pause.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #52)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:51 PM

54. That's the best you have? Drunk, drugs, unhinged?

You did not write down what he said and I showed it by taking it directly from the article, which anyone who clicks on the reticle will see no ellipsis and, instead, a comma.

The comma, as opposed to an ellipsis, means he is saying the prior subject, Republicans, are the ones saying it.

“Based on every statement I’ve heard from every Republican in the last two years, the Earth is 9,000 years old."


Think people would be claiming Maher believes the Earth is 9,000 years old, or would they get it correct, this time, and realize he was saying THE REPUBLICANS are the ones who believe the Earth is 9,000 years old?

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #54)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:09 PM

59. Try to take a step back.


I wrote down exactly what he said. I used an ellipsis instead of a comma.

I then say the manuscript and corrected the mistake >noting so.

During that time I did not fly off the handle.


You seem to be taking quite a liberty in accusing me of something when all I was doing was writing down what he said.

Is there anything else you want to add?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #59)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:13 PM

60. Ellipsis and commas have different uses and can alter a statement's meaning.

I didn't "fly off the handle" but I did use capitalization and other indicators to make words more prominent. Since you have corrected the mistake (and I didn't see the note), do you now agree Maher did NOT say "Israel controls the US government?" Because you have yet to correct that assertion, as far as I can tell.

ETA: You made the change to the post after my comment, then another comment from you. I had no reason to return to the original comment and see you made the changes. I am not alerted if a previous comment I have addressed has been changed after the fact.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #60)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:35 PM

61. Alright. My apologies to you as well.


I was just posting the damn quote since I didn't want to go and search for it through sub thread after sub thread.

I really had no opinion as to what Mahar meant to say. I was just posting the quote. If I were to break down what he was saying IMHO is that the way that the republicans talk about Israel that Israel controls the USA.


But do I personally believe that Israel controls the USA? No.
Money, power, influence, those that will take it, those that will use it and the indolence of the electorate to stop it controls the USA.

As you well know I don't I don't support Israeli policies with regard to the Palestinian situation, since it is apparent that you have been reading my posts for some time, but that is a discussion for the I/P group.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #61)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:38 PM

62. We are on the same page then in regards to this particular issue.

Peace.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #49)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:51 PM

64. Not having heard this before, here's what I discern. That's a poorly worded sentence whose meaning

can't even be discerned. You probably have to hear the conversation preceding it.

He COULD be saying that Republicans have been saying for 2 years that Israel controls our govt. Or he COULD be saying that he, Maher, thinks Israel controls our government because the Republicans have been sounding like the Israeli govt for 2 years. Or he COULD be saying something else.

You just can't tell from the poorly worded sentence. Sounds like an off the cuff remark. Have to hear the preceding conversation.

But what I wonder most is, what does it matter what Maher said? He says a lot of stuff...some good, some bad, some sharp and witty and clever, a little crap. He's a political satirist.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #64)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:55 PM

65. That's why I provided the link to the video.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #65)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:03 AM

66. Well, I'm moving on. I've read 5 or 6 of your posts. None have links. nt

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #67)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:13 AM

68. I found it elsewhere. I hereby proclaim what Maher meant:

What Bill Maher meant by that poorly worded statement is that "the Israeli government is controlling the Republicans, or at least has been for the last couple of years...at least that's the way the Republicans have been behaving."

So....what's wrong with that statement? I don't get it.

He's not saying that the Israeli government is, in fact, controlling our entire govt. You could even read into it that he's saying the Republicans are ACTING as if they're puppets, regardless of whether they are or not. Sarcasm.

Typical Maher. He says it like he sees it. Others may disagree with his statement. But I don't see it as a big deal. Unless, of course, the Israeli government IS controlling things...and the acknowledgement of it is most unwelcome.

I'm not saying I think that at all. But all these things are true, and are much too analytical about a statement by a political satirist.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #68)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:18 AM

69. The problem is the quote is being misused.

Bill Maher: ‘The Israelis Are Controlling Our Government’ (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022384925)

Bill Maher tonight (Friday) took on the GOP opposition to Chuck Hagel becoming the next defense secretary with the particular sticking point that he has made some controversial remarks about Israeli influence on the U.S. government. Maher argued the fact that this is causing such outrage only proves that the Israeli government does have undue influence on the United States.


That is what the problem is as far as I am concerned. He is being "credited" with something he didn't claim.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #69)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:34 AM

70. Oh, I see. That sucks. He didn't say that. But actually, I wondered that myself...

in my post. That the only reason people would get so upset over Maher's statement is if, in fact, the Israeli govt were controlling our govt. Otherwise, it's just yet another wisecrack by Maher, and he's made a lot.

Much ado about nothing, IMO.

BTW, I'm a supporter of Israel, as the number of people ignoring me after a few posts in the Israel/Palestine group proves. But there's no denying that Israel has a lot of influence here, just like the NRA does, and some other groups.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:36 PM

2. the difference between "control" and "undue influence" seems subtle to me

for example, someone could take issue with your saying Israel has "undue influence" and point to that same google search. You could come back and say, "I didn't say Israel controls the U.S. government, i said it has undue influence", but that seems weak in the face of an accusation of anti-semitism.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:36 PM

3. I haven't looked at your link, but...

...I would agree with you that Israel has undue influence over US foreign policy, and that the reasons for this are many and nuanced. The lazy way to say that is to state that Israel "controls our government", even if one doesn't mean that in a full soup-to-nuts way. To me, the operative point is that we take actions on the world stage we shouldn't be taking, and we do so on the behalf of and sometimes at the behest of Israel.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:40 PM

4. Well, we certainly appear to have their back all the time in any case

 

Always vetoing stuff at the U.N. in their favor, and I bet if Israel was attacked, we (the United States) would ride to their rescue, even if it meant World War 3. That is mind blowing to me, that we would risk a nuclear war in defense of a tiny far away foreign country.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:42 PM

5. "Always vetoing stuff at the U.N." LOL!

I love that type of BS propaganda. Always? Really?

"I bet if Israel was attacked, we (the United States) would ride to their rescue,"

You mean the US would actually defend an ally? How dastardly!

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:53 PM

11. well, let's hope it doesn't ever mean World War 3

 

Risking nuclear annihilation, which potentially could mean the end of civilization, seems to me to be a hell of a big commitment over one small foreign country.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #11)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:00 PM

12. I very highly doubt it will lead to WWIII, quinnox.

Cold War ended 22 years ago, my friend. Now, I do think there is legitimate cause for concern over the aftermath of a nuclear Israeli-Iranian conflict, or even, god forbid, nuclear terrorism, but any chance for WWIII in the traditional sense was pretty much nipped in the bud when the U.S.S.R. gave up the ghost in 1991.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #11)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:00 PM

13. Then you might want to start reading up on another "I" country; INDIA.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:03 PM

14. Actually the US has often veteod UN resolutions condemning Israeli actions.

Whether you agree with the them, the fact that they exist would negate your claim that this is BS propaganda. As for defending our ally, I think if Iran attacked Israel, we would definitely help them. However, as with all our allies, we should not allow ourselves to be drawn into any war that we think is unjustified.

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Response to pennylane100 (Reply #14)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:15 PM

16. He didn't say that did he? Nope. He said "always."

Even your qualifer of "often" is not even correct. One simply needs to look at the number of UNSC resolutions passed against Israel, compared to the 34 (?) vetoes the US has used in regards to Israel.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #16)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:14 PM

26. It is always easier to quibble about details

rather than deal with the facts. The fact is the US was the only member of the security counsel to veto a condemnation of Israel's continued expansion in Palestinian territory. This is just one of the many (I think 34 can qualify as many) times the US has protected Israel in the UN.

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Response to pennylane100 (Reply #26)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:03 PM

28. Quibble about details? You mean correct false information with actual facts?

Yes, I know facts fly in the face of the typical anti-Israel propaganda. Of course someone like you would think 34 is "many" despite over 200 resolutions being passed against Israel, but most would not see it as "many", that's your quibble, for obvious reasons.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:03 PM

33. Are you saying that the information about US veteos in support of Israel are false.

Is it not true that the US has blocked many condemnations Israel in the UN. I know it is easier to throw smoke screens up against any facts you find inconvenient but it does not make them go away.

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Response to pennylane100 (Reply #33)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:11 PM

41. I am saying, very clearly, so as you are not to miss this, again...

the US DOES NOT ALWAYS veto anti-Israel resolutions.

Now, was that clear enough for you?!

Talk about smokescreens...

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:57 PM

55. We could go on all night,

and you probably will still not be able to answer a yes/no question. If you had to get into issues instead of spouting taking points you would not be wasting so much of my time. Now, I have a life to live so goodbye.

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Response to pennylane100 (Reply #55)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:58 PM

56. Losing your talking points list?

ask your question. Let's see if it is a real one or a locial fallacy (Have you stopped beating your wife? or Why do hate the color blue?).

On Edit: I did answer your question, you just didn't like or understand the answer, which is not my concern.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #16)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:29 PM

27. Security Council and Israel

Security Council:

175 Total Resolutions
74 Neutral
4 Against the perceived interests of an Arab state or body
97 Against Israel
General Assembly:

Cumulative Number of Votes cast with/for Israel: 7,938.
Cumulative Number of Votes cast against Israel: 55,642.

Link

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Response to quinnox (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:44 PM

6. Hey hey, watch that anti Semitism...

To even mildly criticize or point out reality is, can, and will be taken by some to be the same as a preaching hate against a people based on religion.

The fact that you point out the obvious is lost on those people.

You're right btw

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #6)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:49 PM

9. Yeah, because the number of threads here on DU

criticizing France, Great Britain, Australia, the Netherlands, Italy, Spain, Germany for their internal disputes, is about equal to those criticizing Israel...NOT.

Whom do you think you're kidding?

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #9)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:04 PM

15. Are those countries occupying Palestinian territory for decades with our money?

I didn't think so.

The occupation of Palestine is hardly an internal Israeli matter, no matter what Zionists think.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #15)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:55 AM

78. No, but some of them are doing other bad things in the world

Remember the 'Coalition of the Willing'? Britain - or rather the Blair government as most Brits were against it- collaborated very strongly with the Iraq war. Bush might not have been able to go as far with it as he did without Blair's assistance. Australia and Spain also collaborated, though their influence may not have been as strong.

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Response to PCIntern (Reply #9)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:09 PM

34. Ho many of those countries are presently occupying and colonizing


another people's land?

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #34)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:17 PM

43. And how many are doing it with US tax dollars?

That's the relevant point. It's always the relevant point.

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Response to NightWatcher (Reply #6)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:31 PM

21. that's such garbage- at least as pertains to DU

but that no one wants to address the facts in my op, is just sad.

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Response to cali (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:40 PM

30. Thought we were.

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Response to quinnox (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:47 PM

8. "I bet if Israel was attacked, we (the United States) would ride to their rescue"

Wouldn't we do the same for, say, South Korea?

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Response to oberliner (Reply #8)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:50 PM

10. probably, but that doesn't make it any better

 

Why should the United States protect all these countries, do we really want to be an empire? Maybe it is time to stop controlling the world, and focus on our own country. We got plenty of troubles to work on methinks.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:46 PM

7. Foreign policy, undue influence? Absolutely. Any other aspect, no.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:46 PM

18. I wonder if people even realize why we have an obligation

to defend Israel. Yes, we are obligated. Because before, during, and especially after WW2 we did not let the displaced Jews come to the US. Neither did our allies in the war. We decided in favor of forming Israel, even though it meant taking land from an already existing country. We had our part in creating the problem in the middle east; therefore, we must protect what we created. The people we promised to protect. There. I said it. It was born out of antisemitism in part, in part out of the desire of some people to fulfill prophecy: Jewish, Christian, perhaps Muslim and definitely LDS.

No one will ever be able to prove how much of it was antisemitism; however, one only has to remember that Jewish refugees were turned away in the early years of the war, at a time when we already knew they were being treated horribly. That continued until the government could no longer deny knowing, until it was public knowledge - not about the horrors of the camps per se, but about the ghettos at least. But by that point few could escape, either. Very convenient for our immigration policy, don't you think?

I certainly do not agree with Netanyahu. But we made our bed decades ago at the expense of 2 peoples whose descendants deserve much better. I wish we could give them better. Both of them. Maybe wave a magic wand or something. That's what it'll take.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:00 PM

19. Quick point...

..there was no existing country, only a protectorate of the United Kingdom. The other factor is the oncoming "cold war", though it wasn't called that at this point in history. The "commies were coming" and they (the US, Europe, and a few other allies) needed a foot in the door in Middle East, as many of the former satellite countries were now becoming independent and running right into the arms of the Soviet Union. The hopes were Israel, Jordan, and Lebanon would ally with us giving us a major foothold in the region; it didn't play out quite like that.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:50 PM

23. Yes, you're right. The UK protectorate.

That's another thing. People have no clue how huge a role the UK played in the development of the Cold War. In fact, way, way before that of the fear of communism. I could go on and on about that. People ignored the threat of Hitler because they were so damned afraid of communism.

ETA: I should say we were hand in glove with the UK on that. We agreed wholeheartedly on the threat of communism, to the point that we didn't even intervene with fascism when we should have to help the UK out in WW2. Not soon enough.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:16 PM

35. And payment for Israel allying itself with the USA was the USAs continued acceptance

of Israeli occupation of the Palestinian people and West Bank holy land.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #35)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:12 PM

42. According to you and similar people.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #42)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:19 PM

46. Of the 69 vetos by the USA at the UN 32 were vetos in favor of Israel.

According to history, my friend.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #46)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:21 PM

47. And?

Stay with the program (ie thread). The US does NOT ALWAYS veto anti-Israel resolutions.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #47)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:34 PM

51. I never mentioned that, my friend, and I was staying with the program.


What I did mention was of the 69 vetoes by the USA (since 1997 my omission, mistake) at the UN 32 were vetoes in favor of Israel.

Quite a lot, but I am sure it is not enough for some.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #51)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:46 PM

53. Well, my friend, the person to whom I responded orignially said "ALWAYS".

Which isn't even remotely accurate and even you would have to admit that, despite the desire to want it to be true.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #53)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:00 PM

57. You were responding to DevonRex in this sub thread.

Perhaps you were thinking of the sub thread with quinnox. The one that I was not in.

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Response to R. Daneel Olivaw (Reply #57)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:01 PM

58. Ooops...you are correct!

Then what was the point of your comments about the vetos in context of this subthread?!


ETA: I was having a similar conversation above and thought it was the same one. My apologies. Goes to show it is important to remember what part of thread you are in when having multiple posts.

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Response to Behind the Aegis (Reply #58)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:44 PM

63. When you replied "According to you and similar people"


I looked up thread and found what you meant. I was clarifying my point, but not bringing the other thread in.

Let's just end this. No use in debating what there is nothing to debate over.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:24 PM

20. We can certainly do better, we just choose not to.

The continued seizure of Palestinian land in the West Bank is not only wrong, morally, it cannot end well for either side.

Eventually the Israeli settlements will squeeze the Palestinians into smaller and less desirable communities. The situation will further deteriorate as the Palestinians begin to resist. What now has the makings of an invisible apartheid system will soon become a lot more evident.

We now justify our support of Israel because it is the only democracy in the region, supposedly. As the expansion continues and the rights of the Palestinians are suppressed, we will eventually have to come to terms with the fact that our money is not buying democracy and hopefully we will do what we should have done years ago. Turn of the money tap until BOTH sides come to an equitable way to live together.

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Response to pennylane100 (Reply #20)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:13 PM

29. Simple population growth. The Arab population continues to outstrip the Israeli one.

Both via within the Jewish population, i.e. Ethopian Jews, (When they are not trying to use forced birth control on them) and other "less favored" ethnic Jewish groups etc.

Then outside Israel you have the general Arab population which outstrips the Israeli population growth too.

Give it a couple of decades. It's all about the math.

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Response to DevonRex (Reply #18)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 10:02 AM

81. every ethnic group has endured a level of bias in immigration laws

throughout history. Jews are certainly no more or no less discriminated by immigration laws today. i don't see how immigration policy today obligates us to give Isreal more support than say mexico.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:37 PM

22. Support for extreme right israeli policies have become a litmus test.

And calling anyone who points the obvious state of affairs out "an anti-semite" is bullshit.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:56 PM

24. AIPAC has only two donors.

BTW I am not stating one way or the other if Israel is playing puppeter, or the man behind the curtain of the American Govt. I just dont like inaccuracies.

Its the cash flows that got me interested and several incorrect statements. if you look you start to see some amazing patterns develop.

I am working on my CPA and Forensics accounting and Fraud Masters.

First AIPAC has no major groundswell of American contributors.

THEY ONLY HAD TWO CONTRIBUTORS:
(2009)
THE FIRST GAVE: 48,542,187
THE SECOND GAVE: 13,503,472
Total: 62,045,659 ]

Another thing
2011
81 members of congress went off on junkets to Israel, paid for by the American Israel Education Foundation, an AIPAC spinoff that has been funding such trips for years. During the August recess nearly a fifth of the U.S. Congress will visit a single country whose entire population is less than that of New York City.

Still looking finding some real interesting expenditures by AIPAC and its subsidiaries.

Third more patterns but, I got schoolwork,

Really all one needs to do is look at the Congress as targets of largess and you see lots of patterns develop. Don't look at just the Politicians, look at the families where they get jobs, who has interests in the companies that have those job openings, schools are the politicians kids suddenly receiving sholarships, etc.

Was looking at demographics, this summarization seems reasonable:

"Jewish‐Americans also differ on specific Israeli policies. Many of the key
organizations in the Lobby, like AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents of
Major Jewish Organizations (CPMJO), are run by hardliners who generally
supported the expansionist policies of Israel’s Likud Party, including its hostility
to the Oslo Peace Process. The bulk of U.S. Jewry, on the other hand, is more
favorably disposed to making concessions to the Palestinians, and a few
groups—such as Jewish Voice for Peace—strongly advocate such steps."

Ok, back to studying, I have a test Monday in Forensics accounting, bleh.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:56 PM

25. Rather, the same corporate elite have undue influence on both governments. nt

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:21 PM

31. I was with you until . . .

. . . the antisemitism card was played.

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Response to TomClash (Reply #31)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:18 AM

73. It's not a card. It's called historical context. And the use of "card" is as offensive

to me as race "card".

That you are either ignorant of history or don't give a shit, hardly makes it a "card".

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Response to cali (Reply #73)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:51 AM

79. Anything and everything can be historical context

You said that Israel had undue influence and then had to "balance" it by claiming antisemitism, as if Bill Maher was antisemitic. What nonsense.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:22 PM

36. Well Cali

You have two or three who agree with you, and many many who don't.

Having said that, Israeli supporters control over what can be said here on DU about Israel is alarming.

And Billy Graham is in the same boat as Maher, I do believe. Funny how the right wing fundies are all in favor of allowing Israel to do whatever the fuck it pleases to the Palestinians and other Arab neighbors, and don't the right wing fundies control the US government? Why, yes they do!

So there you have it. Israel does control the US government in more ways than actual citizens like us do.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #36)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 09:59 PM

37. Cali is right that Israel does not control the USG

It has undue influence or control on US ME policy. Frankly, it is a distinction without a difference.

For precisely this purpose, Israel has cultivated Fundie allies who in turn worship Israel to further the faux Christian, crony capitalist agenda.

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Response to TomClash (Reply #37)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:23 PM

48. No, it is not passive

It is very invigorated and well capitalized. It has its fingers in everybody's pie. It is insidious, pervasive and omnipotent.

In the beginning it was a good cause, but now is the work of evil. Strong words? Yes. "By their fruits yee shall know them."

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #36)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:23 AM

74. what is it you want to say that you believe you can't say here because of Israel supporters?

Seriously, over the years on DU I have never had a problem criticizing Israel or Israeli actions.

And no shit, that Israel and virtually every other nation and interest with a powerful lobbying arm, has more influence over the U.S. Government than ordinary citizens..

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Response to cali (Original post)


Response to helveticas (Reply #71)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:36 AM

76. I've been here for a long time. You've been a member for 2 days.

I think I understand the dynamics of DU. And I don't really give a shit if DUers are trying to tell me that they believe that Israel controls the U.S. I stand by every word of my OP.

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Response to cali (Reply #76)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:53 AM

80. Actually no one is trying to tell you that

Read the posts.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 01:23 AM

72. Making a PSA thread won't convince anyone

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022384925

And there's already a thread for it. The thread implies that your opinion counts more than others despite not having data or any factual evidence to back it up.

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #72)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:25 AM

75. Actually, what I posted is factual.

And it's up to the CTers to prove that Israel controls the U.S. Furthermore, I'll start any thread I want. Don't like it? send an alert.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:43 AM

77. I would add to that...

that Israel doesn't control ANY government except its own, and given its highly unfit-for-purpose electoral system, even that is doubtful!

America both influences, and is influenced by, Israel, as is the case with America and the UK. In both cases, the mutual influence is not always beneficial; but that isn't the same thing as saying that Israel - or the UK - controls America.

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