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Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:05 PM

Fugitive who stabbed officer fatally shot after manhunt in Texas

A five-day manhunt for a Florida fugitive who escaped from prison transport officers in Texas ended early on Saturday when he was shot and killed by law enforcement a few miles from the parking lot where he first got away, police said.

Alberto Morales, who had stabbed one of the transport officers with a piece of his eyeglasses, was caught shortly after midnight in a wooded area near a lake in the Dallas-Fort Worth suburb of Grapevine, about three miles from the parking lot where he escaped on Monday, police said.

He was shot while law enforcement officials were trying to apprehend him, Grapevine police said in a statement on Saturday.

Morales was not armed but had his hands concealed when law enforcement approached, Grapevine police Officer Sam Shemwell told Reuters. It was later determined that he had sticks in his hands, Shemwell said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/16/us-usa-crime-texas-idUSBRE91F06F20130216

96 replies, 4124 views

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Reply Fugitive who stabbed officer fatally shot after manhunt in Texas (Original post)
The Straight Story Feb 2013 OP
Cooley Hurd Feb 2013 #1
loudsue Feb 2013 #2
Light House Feb 2013 #3
Cooley Hurd Feb 2013 #4
Light House Feb 2013 #5
intaglio Feb 2013 #7
nobodyspecial Feb 2013 #10
intaglio Feb 2013 #12
treestar Feb 2013 #14
intaglio Feb 2013 #15
treestar Feb 2013 #60
intaglio Feb 2013 #71
Light House Feb 2013 #17
intaglio Feb 2013 #21
Light House Feb 2013 #23
COLGATE4 Feb 2013 #35
Light House Feb 2013 #37
Kingofalldems Feb 2013 #39
Light House Feb 2013 #41
COLGATE4 Feb 2013 #51
Light House Feb 2013 #58
CAG Feb 2013 #27
Light House Feb 2013 #29
CAG Feb 2013 #31
Light House Feb 2013 #33
liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #19
Light House Feb 2013 #20
TheMadMonk Feb 2013 #34
Confusious Feb 2013 #87
Light House Feb 2013 #89
Confusious Feb 2013 #90
dkf Feb 2013 #6
intaglio Feb 2013 #8
dkf Feb 2013 #9
intaglio Feb 2013 #11
dkf Feb 2013 #13
intaglio Feb 2013 #16
Light House Feb 2013 #18
intaglio Feb 2013 #22
Light House Feb 2013 #24
intaglio Feb 2013 #25
Light House Feb 2013 #26
jberryhill Feb 2013 #28
Light House Feb 2013 #30
Kingofalldems Feb 2013 #53
Light House Feb 2013 #59
Kingofalldems Feb 2013 #67
Light House Feb 2013 #69
Kingofalldems Feb 2013 #70
Light House Feb 2013 #72
COLGATE4 Feb 2013 #36
intaglio Feb 2013 #40
COLGATE4 Feb 2013 #45
TheMadMonk Feb 2013 #38
intaglio Feb 2013 #42
Light House Feb 2013 #43
intaglio Feb 2013 #47
Light House Feb 2013 #55
intaglio Feb 2013 #61
stevenleser Feb 2013 #86
Light House Feb 2013 #91
TheMadMonk Feb 2013 #92
intaglio Feb 2013 #93
TheMadMonk Feb 2013 #94
Confusious Feb 2013 #88
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #32
intaglio Feb 2013 #44
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #46
intaglio Feb 2013 #50
geek tragedy Feb 2013 #52
intaglio Feb 2013 #57
COLGATE4 Feb 2013 #48
intaglio Feb 2013 #64
Light House Feb 2013 #68
intaglio Feb 2013 #73
Light House Feb 2013 #75
intaglio Feb 2013 #76
Light House Feb 2013 #78
intaglio Feb 2013 #80
Light House Feb 2013 #81
intaglio Feb 2013 #83
Light House Feb 2013 #85
COLGATE4 Feb 2013 #95
intaglio Feb 2013 #96
Light House Feb 2013 #49
Kingofalldems Feb 2013 #54
Light House Feb 2013 #62
Kingofalldems Feb 2013 #66
Light House Feb 2013 #77
intaglio Feb 2013 #56
Light House Feb 2013 #65
intaglio Feb 2013 #74
Light House Feb 2013 #79
intaglio Feb 2013 #82
Light House Feb 2013 #84
quaker bill Feb 2013 #63

Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:07 PM

1. They had every right to shoot him!

He was brandishing... eyeglasses! That is an executable offense!

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:09 PM

2. In Texas, most everything is executable...

it's tradition.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #1)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:13 PM

3. No.

 

He was shot because he didn't show his hands, he had already stabbed a Miami-Dade detective transporting him, and he had just got done burglarizing a home, cops didn't know if he had a weapon or not.

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Response to Light House (Reply #3)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:15 PM

4. He didn't show his hands?

Was he holding a gun with his dick?

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #4)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:17 PM

5. When officers approached him,

 

his hands were concealed and he refused to show them, he had also burglarized a home, the cops didn't know if he had a weapon or not.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/16/us-usa-crime-texas-idUSBRE91F06F20130216

Did you even bother to read the story?

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Response to Light House (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:54 PM

7. And so they decided he was armed without evidence

This is called acting as judge, jury and executioner. It is ethically indefensible and should result in, at least, a trial.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:11 PM

10. Wow, you should be a cop with that attitude.

We'll see how long you last while you ensure that what the suspect is concealing is a gun and wait for his answer if he is indeed going to shoot you.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #10)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:19 PM

12. So officers should kill on the slightest suspicion that a suspect is armed?

Do you think that becoming a police officer absolves you from all moral and ethical boundaries just because you are afraid?

In your world what need for those quaint institutions of due process and trial?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #12)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:56 PM

14. There will be a set of rules

Not showing hands would be one. No reason to risk cop lives. All the fugitive had to do was surrender.

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Response to treestar (Reply #14)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:19 PM

15. So someone who does not show his or her hands can, automatically, be shot

This makes disobeying a police officer a capital crime without trial, judge, jury or defense.

Do you regard those institutions outdated? Do you think that they are not suitable for todays modern connected society? Perhaps you should ensure that the police are given large motor cycles and huge eagle shoulder pads.

Start F'n well thinking, not just spouting the pap you have peen sold by Hollywood.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #15)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:55 PM

60. What else is there to do?

Should the cop wait until a gun is drawn? If you don't want to be shot by cops, put up your hands. In that situation, it is not too much to ask. Who said you have to obey whatever the cop tells you to do? Well, maybe you should, when you are a known dangerous fugitive and the cop thinks you are willing to kill them. How many dead cops do you wish us to go through? It costs taxpayer money to train them.

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Response to treestar (Reply #60)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:17 PM

71. As pointed out in another part of this thread

The cops have other options open to them especially as the stopped (but not detained or subdued) man was only a suspect closely matching the description of the wanted man. Yes, it might have been more dangerous to use these other options - but that is why you have the police and not just vigilantes.

You ask how many dead cops do I want to see, the answer is none.

However you must answer how many look-alikes and 70 yo Latina women are you willing to see shot to ensure that no policeman is harmed?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #12)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:39 PM

17. Did you forget about the part where

 

he had burglarized a home? Did you forget about the part where he refused to show his hands? Did you forget about the part where he had already stabbed and injured a Miami-Dade cop?
What were they supposed to do? Wait until he started shooting if he had a gun?

If he wanted due process, maybe he shouldn't have stabbed a cop and escaped.

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Response to Light House (Reply #17)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:09 PM

21. So the act of assaulting a police officer denies due process?

Interesting idea that, be sure to recommend it to the Supreme Court. Yes that is sarcasm

Is burglary a capital crime. I do not dispute that the man was a criminal but many people are criminals, indeed nearly everyone has broken a law at sometime. Do you think that allows those people to be shot?

Equally the man was stupid, but if stupidity was a capital crime then many Tea Partiers should be executed.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:19 PM

23. I gotta ask,

 

What's your experience as a Police Officer? Not trying to be insulting, I just want to know what your experience is in dealing with violent felons?

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Response to Light House (Reply #23)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:02 PM

35. Crickets... because the OP obviously

never has had any contact with law enforcement to have any understanding of what this type of encounter is like.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #35)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:05 PM

37. I think this person put me on ignore

 

because I asked a tough question and s/he couldn't answer it.
Or I hurt their feelings.

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Response to Light House (Reply #37)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:14 PM

39. Well I certainly won't ignore you

for sure.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #39)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:21 PM

41. Ok.

 

So how am I supposed to take that? As a threat or as a friend?

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Response to Light House (Reply #37)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:36 PM

51. I would suggest that being put on ignore

is probably no great loss...

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #51)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:47 PM

58. I agree.

 

Not quite sure how to take Kingofalldems post to me, sounds like a threat but I'm not sure.

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Response to Light House (Reply #17)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:38 PM

27. Apparently, to some the only time the police can actively respond to a

person bent on killing them by evidence that he had already injured a policeman, is a few seconds after that person has already fired a few rounds at them. How would you like to have that as a career? How many more policeman would die and leave their spouses and children alone? Lets keep in mind this guy was already convicted for a crime and he had escaped from prison custody. He wasn't a free citizen. He wasn't a "suspect" or "person of interest".

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Response to CAG (Reply #27)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:42 PM

29. It would appear so.

 

I often wonder how many who constantly fault the police have police experience or experience in dealing with violent criminals. I'm not saying that they can't have an opinion, just wondering if they have any idea of what a police officer goes through day after day.

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Response to Light House (Reply #29)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:54 PM

31. day after day for 30 years. I'm glad I don't have that pressure.

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Response to CAG (Reply #31)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:57 PM

33. K&R.

 

Am I allowed to do that, K&R on a post?

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Response to Light House (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:49 PM

19. this is why mentally ill people are constantly killed

I don't know anything about this particular case but many mentally ill suspects don't do what they are told by police. There has to be a better way to apprehend these people without killing them with no evidence that they are armed.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:54 PM

20. I couldn't agree more.

 

This guy was a sexual predator already in jail in FL., he was being transported to NV for another crime.
I'm kinda wondering why they didn't use their tasers to subdue him, or maybe they did and it wasn't reported in the news.
I wasn't there so I don't know the full circumstances of why he was shot, so I won't second guess the officers on scene at this point.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:39 PM

34. There is. It's called a taffy gun. Not used because...

 

...some idiots are worried that suspects (particularly the mentally ill) would deliberately obstruct their airway with the glue fired by the gun.

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Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:26 PM

87. You lose the benefit of the doubt

When you're a violent escaped felon who stabbed a police officer, burglarized a home and when confronted refused to obey police commands.

Which means, you're assumed to be armed, unless you can prove you are not, by putting up your hands and/or lying on the ground splayed out.

Some people here seem to live up in towers with absolutely NO understanding about what the real world is like, what happens or what the rules are.

I'm not great at it myself, but I seem to know more then a lot of people around here, and that's pretty sad.

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Response to Confusious (Reply #87)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:34 PM

89. +100000

 

A couple of people on this thread remind me of those that were saying that the police denied Mr. Dorner of his due process right.
These people have no idea of what the right to due process is.

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Response to Light House (Reply #89)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:39 PM

90. Seems some around here either live in a glass tower,

hate cops so much they lose all ability to think ( If they had it in the first place), or think that because you're an "oppressed" (whether real or imagined) minority, that gives you the right to go around shooting people. (yea I saw excuses like that)

Then there were the rational few. Few being the operative word.

Really disappointing.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:53 PM

6. Is this the kind of police corruption everyone is so furious about?

 

Personally I prefer they not leave dangerous escaped criminals or rampaging mass murdering cops on the loose and appreciate when they risk their lives to contain these types.



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Response to dkf (Reply #6)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:59 PM

8. OK, the action of the officers was not "corruption"

It was killing without evidence or any reason except, possibly, that they were scared. When reported from other countries it is called extra-judicial murder and the cops that do it are often referred to as members of death squads

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Response to intaglio (Reply #8)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:04 PM

9. Gee good thing Dorner killed himself or we would have had a death squad in SB too.

 

Who knew we are a country full of death squads. That apply to Jimmy Lee Dykes too?

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Response to dkf (Reply #9)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:14 PM

11. So you assume that Dorner did not kill himself?

I'm afraid I do not believe that. In the case of Dorner there was evidence he was armed, he was "entrenched" and the officers had real reason to fear.

However during the manhunt of Dorner the police acted irresponsibly and in a way that endangered the lives of the innocent. That has to be addressed and in a just society the officers acting irresponsibly should be, at the least, disciplined.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #11)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:52 PM

13. No I assume he did kill himself.

 

And of course the cops who shot up the wrong people in the wrong cars are going to be disciplined. That is obviously a mess up and is frankly incompetent.

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Response to dkf (Reply #13)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:25 PM

16. Accepting that then you have to look at your assumptions

The police do a valiant job and most are honest just attempting to do their best but ...

Many live in a culture without any limits on their actions. They feel that, because they are called upon to be brave on a daily basis, they can commit actions that would mean those not of the police would be incarcerated. In this case the action was to kill a man because he did not obey an order.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #16)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:45 PM

18. He refused to obey a lawful order,

 

he had burglarized a home, he refused to show his hands, he had already shown a propensity for violence by stabbing a cop, the shooting will almost certainly be ruled a justifiable homicide.

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Response to Light House (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:14 PM

22. So disobeying a lawful order is a capital crime

By this argument the National guard at Kent state were just poor fuzzy bunnies stopping vile criminals disturbing the peace. By this same logic the police at Danziger Bridge were justified in shooting unarmed people trying to escape the floods.

Ever thought of posting in some other forum?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #22)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:23 PM

24. Ever thought of not insulting people?

 

And yes, when a violent felon, who stabbed a police officer in the act of escaping and is considered armed and dangerous, then if he presents an immediate threat to LE, deadly force can be used, and this violent escapee was an immediate threat to LE by not obeying their commands.

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Response to Light House (Reply #24)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:29 PM

25. So that's a "yes"

you do support the abandonment of due process.

BTW what do you take as an insult? The fact that you are spouting some seriously authoritarian nonsense does lead me to assume that, perhaps DU is not your best choice of forum.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #25)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:37 PM

26. I do support due process, but the violent criminal has to want due process by surrendering.

 

I also support not getting injured or killed by a violent felon who has already shown that he will injure or kill to escape custody, who refuses to obey lawful commands.

You don't even know the meaning of the word authoritarian if your attaching it to what I've been saying here.

And you little comment about posting on another forum is uncalled for. Luckily I have a thick skin.

I'll ask again, what's your experience in dealing with violent felons? How many years have you been in LE?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #25)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:39 PM

28. Can you cite the case you are relying on?

You keep saying things about denying due process, but you don't back it up with any reference to any relevant rulings.

Do you seriously believe the issue of police use of deadly force has never been before the Supreme Court? Do you seriously believe there are no relevant rulings in this area?

Or do you believe that it's all about your personal gut feeling abou whether an action is or is not constitutional?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:44 PM

30. I dare say that this person is going on emotions

 

and a dislike of LE, not the law.

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Response to Light House (Reply #30)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:41 PM

53. Going on emotions you say?

Now where have I heard that before? Hmmm.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #53)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:50 PM

59. Thank you very much.

 

You just answered my earlier question and I will act accordingly.

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Response to Light House (Reply #59)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:12 PM

67. So you know what I'm talking about

Act any way you want.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #67)


Response to Light House (Reply #69)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:16 PM

70. Where did I threaten you?

And oh yeah, I will not ignore you.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #70)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:18 PM

72. Ok.

 

You have a good day.

I'll go and delete that post.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #8)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:05 PM

36. Killing without evidence - except that the

man was a wanted, violent fugitive who had sworn never to go back to jail, who had burglarized a home where he could easily have obtained weapons and then refused to show his hands upon command. You're right - no evidence whatsoever.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #36)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:17 PM

40. Commiting a crime does not debar you from your day in court

Being violent does not void your right to trial. Having the vague possibility of having a gun is not grounds to be executed. Not seeing something is not evidence, if it was not seeing you with the Cullinan Diamond would be grounds to imprison you. If any of this was true then there would be few court trials and those that did take place would result in acquittals.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #40)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:29 PM

45. Along with having no background in police procedure

you obviously have no understanding of what the term "evidence" is. As to your specious claims about lack of due process, go back and read jberryhill's answer #28 to you. Nothing in the way this was handled by the police violated Morales' Due Process rights. As to his 'day in court', he effectively debarred himself by his own actions.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #8)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:09 PM

38. Or perhaps the escapee was just plain stupid. Thinking...

 

...that he could hold the cops at bay by pretending he had a weapon. And just maybe he realised what probably happens to sex offenders who are stupid enough to attack prison guards.

Please tell us. EXACTLY WHAT THE FUCK SHOULD THEY HAVE DONE? In multiple posts you have excoriated the behaviour of police, without once suggesting how they might move from a standoff to a court of law.

Go on, you've told us often enough what they shouldn't have done. Tell us what they should have.

And if you don't know what death squads really do, do some bloody research, don't cheapen the life and death struggles of entire peoples, by equating their situation with that of a violent CONVICTED RAPIST.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #38)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:24 PM

42. Police proceedure

Begin with a taser perhaps?

Bean-bag round?

Pepper spray?

Put rounds in his legs?

Call back up and take him down by brute force?

All of the above?

Now look at the rant you post at the end, by this argument just execute all rapists.

The police are not executioners nor should they be

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Response to intaglio (Reply #42)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:26 PM

43. You know nothing about police procedures

 

do you?

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Response to Light House (Reply #43)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:34 PM

47. Do you?

Do the police have no other options except killing?

Are they not allowed to use tasers or bean-bags or pepper spray or call for back up? Can they never show initiative or take risks? Must every hunt where the quarry is not obviously helpless end with the death of the quarry?

Now let me throw this your way - what if they had mistaken the identity of the person they shot, would that person have been killed justifiably?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #47)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:44 PM

55. I VERY obviously have more education on police procedures than you do.

 

You keep ignoring the fact that this was a violent escaped felon who had already stabbed a police officer, burglarized a home, when confronted, refused to obey police commands and officers felt their safety was in immediate danger, from what I've read so far, it was a justifiable homicide and will probably be ruled so by the DA.

Yes, police officers are allowed and do use tasers, but unlike what you see on teevee, they're not always effective, and 99% of fugitive apprehensions are violence free.
This violent, convicted sexual predator was not denied his due process right by the police, this violent convicted sexual predator was denied his due process right by himself by not obeying lawful police orders.

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Response to Light House (Reply #55)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:01 PM

61. You keep ignoring the fact that none of what you say denies a person right to due process

Now, how solid was the ID? Did they hold the guy up and compare him to a picture? Of course not and if they had done they would have been in breach of procedure! Their duty was to apprehend a criminal and anyone in that vicinity who matched the description would have been challenged and that would have been in accordance with procedure.

They saw someone who looked like the person sought. They had no chance to confirm the identity but they challenged as required. They sought to have the suspect render himself helpless bu revealing if he held any weapons. That suspect did not comply. Now if the suspect had been the wrong man and not a speaker of English, would the officers still have been justified in shooting?

Next you reveal you prejudice, because you admit that tasers could have been used but excuse the failure on the grounds that
... they're not always effective
Which means that they are mostly effective. What relevance the 99% statistic you throw out has to do with anything is a mystery.

Essentially you are in favour of the police executing anyone they think is guilty of a crime and who they can interpret as threatening them.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #61)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:10 PM

86. I think I detect the problem with your opinion on this shooting

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what due process means in the case of a violent suspect. Due process does not mean police have to let you put their lives in danger.

The Supreme Court has ruled on this in the Garner case. If the suspect is a violent and dangerous suspect, they have the right to shoot him after some warning is given and the suspect does not comply. That IS due process in this situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985), was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that under the Fourth Amendment, when a law enforcement officer is pursuing a fleeing suspect, he or she may use deadly force only to prevent escape if the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.

-------------
Here is some more text from Garner:
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/471/1/case.html

A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead. The Tennessee statute is unconstitutional insofar as it authorizes the use of deadly force against such fleeing suspects.

It is not, however, unconstitutional on its face. Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where

Page 471 U. S. 12

feasible, some warning has been given. As applied in such circumstances, the Tennessee statute would pass constitutional muster.



-------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process

'Due process' is the legal requirement that the state must respect all of the legal rights that are owed to a person. Due process balances the power of law of the land and protects the individual person from it. When a government harms a person without following the exact course of the law, this constitutes a due-process violation, which offends against the rule of law.

Due process has also been frequently interpreted as limiting laws and legal proceedings (see substantive due process), so that judges - instead of legislators - may define and guarantee fundamental fairness, justice, and liberty. This interpretation has proven controversial, and is analogous to the concepts of natural justice, and procedural justice used in various other jurisdictions. This interpretation of due process is sometimes expressed as a command that the government must not be unfair to the people or abuse them physically.

United StatesMain article: Due Process Clause
The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution each contain a Due Process Clause. The Supreme Court of the United States interprets the Clauses as providing four protections: procedural due process (in civil and criminal proceedings), substantive due process, a prohibition against vague laws, and as the vehicle for the incorporation of the Bill of Rights


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Response to stevenleser (Reply #86)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:44 PM

91. Great post.

 

I was hoping that s/he would find it for themselves, but I was wrong.
Thanks.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #42)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:28 PM

92. Taser and bean bags require a clear shot.

 

Not generally available on someone half hidden in a ditch.

Pepper spray has range issues.

Deliberately shooting extremities is absolutely verboten for multiple reasons.

Storm the ramparts. Keep going over the bodies of your mates. Even a stick is a nasty weapon and a stick grounded at one end can take down a charging lion or razorback.

No, just those rapists (and any other violent criminals) who through their own behaviour demonstrate their willingness to do anything, up to attempting murder and then playing chicken with armed cops, to avoid the just consequences of their actions. And guess what? He got EXACTLY what he wanted. He'll never spend another night in jail.

All he had to do was SHOW HIS BLOODY HANDS. And you cannot put his inaction down to ignorance. He was a part of the system, he knew the requirement for immediate compliance, AND THE PROBABLE (make that almost certain under the circumstances) CONSEQUENCES of non-compliance. He either chose suicide by cop, or he was terminally stupid.

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Response to TheMadMonk (Reply #92)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 06:04 AM

93. Read your own post and the contradictions

If he was in a ditch how likely was it he could get away, why was no back-up sought?

If he was half hidden how was it possible be sure they could kill him? If he there was enough visible to be shot there was also enough at which to attempt one, or several, taser shots.

Why was there no attempt made at another method?

Sharp sticks can take down a razorback? Yup, in specially designed traps or, if they are spears, in the hands of someone who knows how to use a spear or, if they are arrows fired from composite bows and tipped with steel arrowheads, by someone with a bow and who knows how to use it. Are you saying this vicious murderer was a supercriminal? In which case they should have sent for the Batman.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #93)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 09:07 AM

94. No. I am saying that in the face of several armed police...

 

...he PRETENDED TO HAVE A WEAPON.

He might not have been able to get away. However, he had just burgled a house which made it perfectly plausible that the thing/weapon he was pretending to conceal was a firearm.

Suicide by cop or terminal stupidity.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #8)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:28 PM

88. Escaped Felon

stabbed a police officer

burglarized a home

when confronted refused to obey police commands.

They have every right to assume he was armed. When he refused to obey commands, they hand every right to shoot him.

You live in a glass tower.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:56 PM

32. Sticks and stones can get your ass killed if you're a recent cop killer

and not complying with orders from the police.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #32)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:28 PM

44. Just imagine for a second that the person apprehended was not the criminal

but just some random drunk. Should his failure to obey order still result in his death?

If you think that could not happen then think about the 2 Latina ladies who suffered because they were mistaken a murdering cop killer.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #44)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:32 PM

46. There's always going to be a tension in that sort of situation.

Police are supposed to use violence as a last resort.

Given that this guy had just stabbed someone and the cops were treating him as dangerous, it's very possible this was reasonable.

We don't have a complete breakdown as to what happened. If he sat in one place on the ground and they shot him, that's a crime. If he ran at them after being told to stop, probably a legit shooting.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #46)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:35 PM

50. Important words

Last resort ...

In recent cases has violence been truly only the last resort?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #50)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:39 PM

52. Last resort meaning all other reasonable options having been exhausted.

Very squishy term, of course.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #52)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:46 PM

57. Yup - should we "get a room"? n/t

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Response to intaglio (Reply #44)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:35 PM

48. Just imagine for a second that the police decided

that, even although he refused to show his hands upon a legitimate command that they could safely ignore that and proceed to try and arrest him. Imagine for a second if he had a weapon. How many dead cops can you imagine?

BTW, let's not play the game of "just imagine". Remember, if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #48)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:06 PM

64. Just imagine that they had used other, approved proceedures

Just imagine mistaken identity and the guy they see is you. Just imagine that you move your hands too fast or not quickly enough.

The fact is that the officers in this case did not even try methods that could have ended the episode with a live suspect.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #64)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:13 PM

68. How do you know they didn't try other methods?

 

How do you know that this violent escaped sexual predator didn't attack the police?
You and I can imagine all we want, we weren't there and I won't second guess the on scene officer's until different evidence comes out saying that they were wrong.

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Response to Light House (Reply #68)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:18 PM

73. Because I believe the police account of the incident

and that made no mention of any attempt to use those methods ...

Or would they have kept that secret?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #73)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:21 PM

75. Maybe the news just didn't mention it.

 

It's not like the news reports are always complete or accurate.

So now you're willing to believe the police account?

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Response to Light House (Reply #75)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:28 PM

76. Yup, because what was described was an extra-judicial killing

I might infer that the officers were too scared to follow procedure correctly i.e. detain and subdue the suspect; but for whatever reason they did not try those other methods and a man died. If you were religious you might be at least a little sad that the criminal was given no chance to repent of his evil - or did he lack free will and so ordained to go to hell?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #76)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:31 PM

78. Please,

 

keep talking.
You're digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole.

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Response to Light House (Reply #78)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:35 PM

80. Do tell, and how is your master post on police procedure coming?

Come on, expose us to your expert knowledge, blind us with your wisdom ... actually respond with something other than assertion.

But I ask too much ...

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Response to intaglio (Reply #80)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:38 PM

81. Sorry,

 

not going down that road, but I think it's safe to say that I am more educated in police procedure and court cases involving police use of force.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #83)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:44 PM

85. Well,

 

I did stay in a Holiday Inn once.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #64)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 11:51 AM

95. Imagine if they had shot the gun

out of his hands with one, clean shot (I saw Randoph Scott do it so it must be true). It's painfully obvious that you have zero experience with police and actual police procedures. You need to stop watching so much TV and get acquainted with how things in the real world operate. Police are only required to use reasonable methods, not the best possible hypothetical method.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #95)

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 12:08 PM

96. Stop pretending you don't know what I mean

The officers did not even consider alternative methods.

They shot a man for failing to obey orders. You do always obey orders, don't you?

They shot a man in partial concealment so they did not even have a firm ID.

They were lucky, the person they shot was the one sought. On another day it could be you, or your wife, or your father, or a friend who is a little deaf.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #44)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:35 PM

49. You're really reaching now.

 

The cops knew who he was, you think they didn't have pictures of him?
The more you talk, the more you reveal that you have no idea of police procedures.

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Response to Light House (Reply #49)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:41 PM

54. So you are a cop?

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #54)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:03 PM

62. Why?

 

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Response to Light House (Reply #62)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:11 PM

66. Because you are commenting on posters knowledge of

police procedures.

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Response to Kingofalldems (Reply #66)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:30 PM

77. Yes I am,

 

which, in my opinion, is an honest question to ask as s/he seems to questioning police procedures and law without any knowledge.

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Response to Light House (Reply #49)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:44 PM

56. You live in a fantasy world

The police had pictures of Dorner - did that stop them shooting at the wrong people?

The police thought they knew what vehicle Dorner was driving - did that stop them shooting up the wrong vehicle?

Do the police take pictures out of their wallet, or off a computer screen, before they try to apprehend a criminal? No they see someone who looks like the person they want, they act to challenge that person and to stop them. Once the suspect has been subdued then they have the chance to safely examine pictures.

Where do you get your idea about police procedure, Hollywood? Tee-Vee?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #56)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:08 PM

65. The more you keep talking,

 

the more you prove that you have no education on police procedures or the law governing police officers.
Hollywood, TeeVee?

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Response to Light House (Reply #65)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:20 PM

74. OK, so educate me

and say where you get your knowledge.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #74)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:35 PM

79. No thanks.

 

Not going down that road. But suffice to say, I'm very well educated in police procedures and court cases involving the use of force by LE.

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Response to Light House (Reply #79)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:39 PM

82. You make it too easy

Been arrested and in court a lot, have you?

You are not a policeman, a lawyer, a paralegal or a trained journalist. So what else are we to think?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #82)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:42 PM

84. You have no idea what my education or occupation was.

 

but you go ahead and think what you want to.

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Response to The Straight Story (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:04 PM

63. Fortunately, they did not use a drone.

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