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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 06:57 PM

Carnival-did anyone wonder why they didn't let passengers

disembark in MX until the engine room was operational? I did. Then I spoke to a friend who works at Port Canavaral in security for another cruise line.

I was told the passengers couldn't get off because Carnival waived the requirement to have passports for over 500 passengers. I don't know, but this might be illegal. And I did hear it secondhand, just thought I'd share this twist if it hasn't already been discussed.

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Arrow 28 replies Author Time Post
Reply Carnival-did anyone wonder why they didn't let passengers (Original post)
babylonsister Feb 2013 OP
elehhhhna Feb 2013 #1
babylonsister Feb 2013 #2
jberryhill Feb 2013 #13
CreekDog Feb 2013 #6
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #10
CreekDog Feb 2013 #11
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #12
CreekDog Feb 2013 #25
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #8
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #9
RandiFan1290 Feb 2013 #3
jberryhill Feb 2013 #14
HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #4
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #5
babylonsister Feb 2013 #7
jberryhill Feb 2013 #15
tammywammy Feb 2013 #16
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #17
Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #19
oldhippie Feb 2013 #18
oldhippie Feb 2013 #21
davidpdx Feb 2013 #26
Cleita Feb 2013 #20
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #22
oldhippie Feb 2013 #24
tammywammy Feb 2013 #23
quadrature Feb 2013 #27
oldhippie Feb 2013 #28

Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:01 PM

1. The FED waives the requirement for "closed loop travel" -- i.e.

begins and ends int he US. Carnival STRONGLY advises passengers to bring a passport but can't force 'em.

Blame the cheapos who knew they were going to mexico.

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:04 PM

2. So it's legal?

I'm not quite getting why. My sister lives 1.5 hours inside MX, and I need a passport to visit. I wonder why there are different standards? So those passengers w/o can't get off the ship, I take it. Got it, thanks!

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:56 PM

13. Perfectly legal


I think a lot of people on DU are not aware of the pull this industry has.



https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1139/~/documents-needed-to-take-a-cruise

U.S. Citizens on closed-loop cruises will be able to enter or depart the country on the cruise with proof of citizenship, such as an original or copy of his or her birth certificate (issued by the Vital Records Department in the state where he or she was born) and, if 16 or older, a government issued photo ID. If the child is a newborn and the actual birth certificate has not arrived from the Vital Records Department, we will accept a Hospital issued birth certificate. The United States does not require you to have a passport. (A Consular report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department of State or a Certificate of Naturalization is also acceptable.)

HOWEVER, it is possible that one or more of the Caribbean Islands on your itinerary, does require you to have a passport to enter their country. In that case, it is very possible that the cruise line will require you to have a passport to board, even if it is not a U.S. requirement. You should always check with your cruise ship, travel agent and or destination country to confirm the requirements for entry into the foreign countries you will be visiting. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) provides document requirements for entry into the United States only.

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:16 PM

6. no, blame the cruise company --they could let the folks with passports off

they could also try to make arrangements for those without.

a minor fire left them without propulsion and without power to run the ship. that's obviously some sort of engineering or design flaws, in that often minor fires not only set the boat adrift, but render the other engines nearly useless, even if they aren't damaged --and the thing is, so you lose the ability to drive the ship with only minor damage --the attendant loss of power for the sanitation system is ridiculous.

that makes even a minor problem on the ship a crisis.

i've been on 2 Carnival cruises and won't be going with them, and possibly any cruise line again.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:40 PM

10. a minor fire?

This was a minor fire, which has put the vessel out of service for a month?

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Response to Lurker Deluxe (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:46 PM

11. right because, as before a small fire which didn't do damage to all the engines

has rendered the ship nearly without power.

that's the fatal flaw.

others here are pointing out that the engineering has no redundancy for small fires.

seriously.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:51 PM

12. Which one before?

What minor fire before disabled a cruise ship?

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Response to Lurker Deluxe (Reply #12)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 03:58 AM

25. in 2012, 2010, 1999...all on Carnival owned ships

even though they have something like 5 generators, there is a vulnerability that renders them all virtually without power even if those generators aren't damaged.

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:24 PM

8. Cause they knew there was going to be an engine room fire

I blame the cheapos, but that is not the passengers. An emergency stop in a port is expensive. And this time around they were promised a close inspection.

Yeah, that was Carnival. When they were hooked to tug boats they were still much closer to Progreso Mexico, than Mobile Alabama, in spite of Carnival's claims to the contrary.

A simple look at a chart suffices.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:38 PM

9. Is that how it went?

Motor Vessel Triumph, Motor Vessel Triumph, this is a mayday, this is a mayday, we have lost main engine power and we are adrift.

Acknowledged Triumph, this is the Mexican Navy and we will tow you to port and then perform a close inspection of your craft.

Are you saying that before they passengers were rescued the goal of the Mexican Navy was to punish Carnival?

Also, which way was the current flowing? Seeming that the vessel was not moving toward Mexico I would say it was moving north east. And which way was the wind blowing, I know they had a tail wind coming into Mobile Bay.

Perhaps they made the best decision at the time.

Putting your hatred of Carnival aside, perhaps the safety of the passengers was a concern and all options were carefully looked at, including the difficulties of getting 4000 people out of Mexico.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:05 PM

3. For a cruise or driving into Canada

I believe you only need the card form of passport. If they were to fly out of Mexico they needed their actual passport.

I could be wrong

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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:58 PM

14. Loop cruises are an exception


The cruise industry lobbied for, and got, a carve out.

Neither a passport nor a passport card is required, so long as the ports of entry will let you in and out (and, yes, the cruise industry has more pull with them than the considerable pull they have here).

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1139/~/documents-needed-to-take-a-cruise

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:12 PM

4. It possible no passport required if they stayed aboard,

or within fenced port area. Yes, if they tried to fly back to US from Mexico, they would have lots of trouble.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:15 PM

5. Mexico was willing to work with passengers

As in we drive you to Merida, we put you on a plane...make it as easy as we can, safe trip...

US immigrations and customs still did their number when the ship was towed into mobile.

Under international law, while a passport is a nicety, in a situation like this governments can and do issue emergency travel papers, assuming they did not have them

For the record, we went to Alaska, with a stop in Victoria, BC. This ship had a stop in Cozumel, we were told we needed a passport to board the ship, and this was checked before we boarded. It was not Carnival.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:18 PM

7. Thank you.

The cruise line my friend works for won't allow people onboard without a passport if they're going to any foreign ports of call. I do wonder what the actual law is...sounds fuzzy to me.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:00 PM

15. The actual law is this...


US CUSTOMS:

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/1139/~/documents-needed-to-take-a-cruise

U.S. Citizens on closed-loop cruises will be able to enter or depart the country on the cruise with proof of citizenship, such as an original or copy of his or her birth certificate (issued by the Vital Records Department in the state where he or she was born) and, if 16 or older, a government issued photo ID. If the child is a newborn and the actual birth certificate has not arrived from the Vital Records Department, we will accept a Hospital issued birth certificate. The United States does not require you to have a passport. (A Consular report of Birth Abroad issued by the Department of State or a Certificate of Naturalization is also acceptable.)

HOWEVER, it is possible that one or more of the Caribbean Islands on your itinerary, does require you to have a passport to enter their country. In that case, it is very possible that the cruise line will require you to have a passport to board, even if it is not a U.S. requirement. You should always check with your cruise ship, travel agent and or destination country to confirm the requirements for entry into the foreign countries you will be visiting. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) provides document requirements for entry into the United States only.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:01 PM

16. The passport card was developed in response to the

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:01 PM

17. Nope, passports was not the issue

This is the communique from the State of Yucatan, and includes the thank you to the General Consul of the US in Merida.

http://www.progresohoy.com/noticias/naviera-carnival-cambia-planes-remolcaran-crucero-triumph-hasta-alabama-6381/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

The excuse...it's easier to logistically move passengers in the states.

There are a lot of things here unsaid.

Durante una reunión de seguimiento del incidente, realizada en las instalaciones de la Secretaría de Seguridad Pública estatal, Javier Gallardo, gerente de Carnival Cruises, en México, dijo que la decisión final de la empresa por remolcar el navío hacia Estados Unidos respondió a un análisis que involucró condiciones de logística marítima, de las condiciones meteorológicas en el Golfo de México y de una mayor facilidad de movilidad para los más de cuatro mil pasajeros y tripulación afectados. Ante la cónsul estadounidense Sonya Tsiros, el empresario agradeció profundamente la respuesta del Gobierno que encabeza Rolando Zapata Bello, así como a todas las autoridades federales y municipales, por su respuesta pronta y expedita ante esta eventualidad


Choice excerpt...

During the meeting to follow the incident, carried out at the State Security Office (Office of Emergency Management), Javier Galardo, General Manager of Carnival Cruises Mexico, said the decision to tow to the United States, depended on analysts of maritime logistics, weather conditions in the Gulf of Mexico, and ease of movement for the more of four thousand passengers and crew affected. Before General Consul Sonya Tsiros, the businessman thanked deeply the fast and efficient response of the (state) Government led by (Governor) Rolando Zapata Bello, as well as the Federal (The Navy was involved) and municipal authorities.


So yup, I suspect port fees were part of the problem. Towing to Progresso, they would have reached land four days ago. Passports, a convenient excuse.

Now, why oh why is CNN not covering this part of it?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:09 PM

19. So..

Your source cites the exact thing most others are saying, weather conditions and the ease to move passengers, and you get that port fees were part of the problem.

Mexico was willing to help, but they were going to charge them up the wazoo?

Which is it?

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:05 PM

18. Took about 13 seconds to find ......

 

"US Citizens on closed-loop cruises (cruises that begin and end in the same U.S. port) and travel to destinations in Mexico, Canada, the Caribbean, the Bahamas, and Bermuda are able to re-enter the United States with proof of citizenship other than a passport or passport card."

"However; ALL major cruise lines (Royal Caribbean, Carnival, Disney) STRONGLY recommend that all guests travel with a passport that is valid for at least six (6) months beyond the end of the cruise..."

http://www.passportsandvisas.com/passport-requirements/cruise/passportsforcruises.asp|

But many of the cheapos that use Carnival don't want to spend the extra $$$$$. What could possibly go wrong?

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:20 PM

21. The problem wasn't Mexico willing to work with the passengers .......

 

.... it was the US Govt that by law and policy would possibly prohibit the passengers w/o passports to enter the US.

Is any CEO or ops decision maker going to embark on a course of action that may strand hundreds of his passengers in Mexico or have them denied entry to the US based on a "hope" that the US would violate it's own policy? I wouldn't. When the decision maker is examining alternatives in the first few hours of an operation, and there are no lives at stake, he has to go with the course of action with the least liability.

Unless of, course, you have some other agenda to pursue.

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Response to oldhippie (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:35 AM

26. The law really should be changed to require passports whether it is closed loop or not

If the situation had been worse, there is a possibility that Mexico (or which ever other place was closest) would have been the only option. Like you said, if they had to enter another country for an emergency it would have caused a huge problem for those without passports. You'd think people in this day and age that those who are traveling outside the US would just go ahead and get a passport instead of being so stupid.

I think this time Carnival was relatively lucky aside from the bad publicity they got.

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:15 PM

20. Huh, when I went to Alaska, we had to have passports to disembark in Canada.

Wouldn't passports be required for the Bahamas or other places they might visit?

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Response to Cleita (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:22 PM

22. Mexico requires them.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:55 PM

24. Wrong again

 

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Response to Cleita (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:32 PM

23. Mexico allows US passport cards for entry.

But passengers cannot use the passport card to enter the US via air travel.

As for the Bahamas:
Sea Travel: U.S. citizens traveling to The Bahamas by sea on private watercraft or most commercial vessels must have a valid passport. Those traveling by sea on an officially-designated “closed-loop cruise”, meaning that the port of entry is the same port as the port of re-entry upon return to the U.S., may enter using a passport, passport card, or other Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative (WHTI) compliant document, however, it is prudent to obtain a passport before travel in case of an unforeseen emergency that requires a cruise passenger to disembark and return by air. (Please verify with your cruise line if your intended cruise is designated a closed-loop cruise.) Travelers arriving via private watercraft are charged docking fees.


http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_989.html#entry_requirements

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Response to babylonsister (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 07:06 AM

27. send complaints to the Bahamas

where this rustbucket was flagged.

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Response to quadrature (Reply #27)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:16 AM

28. What do the Bahamas have to do with .....

 

.... US Passport regulations?

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