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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:20 AM

A national-service draft could be a very positive thing

I can think of many :...add yours...


1. For many underprivileged 18 year old kids , it might be a great opportunity for:

.............long delayed dental work
.............getting long-needed glasses
.............getting good medical care for a change
.............learning a trade, and perhaps finding a military career

2. It would delay college for only 2 years, but by then many might be more ready for college, and might have a better idea of what they want to do for their life's work

3. If the "new" draft also came with a "2 years paid" option for further education, it could massively lower the college debt burden

4. It would allow people to meet other people of all circumstances, and remove the "macho-only-need-apply version of the military we now have.

5. It would offer a JOB to all 18 year olds at a time when they are relatively unburdened by family obligations, and it could be a grand adventure.

Not ALL would go into the military...many would choose community service, but it's a good thing for NO ONE to be able to opt-out.

22 replies, 1489 views

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Arrow 22 replies Author Time Post
Reply A national-service draft could be a very positive thing (Original post)
SoCalDem Feb 2013 OP
MadHound Feb 2013 #1
SoCalDem Feb 2013 #2
MadHound Feb 2013 #3
pnwmom Feb 2013 #9
MADem Feb 2013 #4
Earth_First Feb 2013 #5
SoCalDem Feb 2013 #6
Earth_First Feb 2013 #7
Small Accumulates Feb 2013 #8
pnwmom Feb 2013 #10
La Lioness Priyanka Feb 2013 #11
EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #14
dairydog91 Feb 2013 #20
EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #12
Javaman Feb 2013 #13
nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #15
dairydog91 Feb 2013 #18
yewberry Feb 2013 #16
HereSince1628 Feb 2013 #17
JVS Feb 2013 #19
HereSince1628 Feb 2013 #21
jmg257 Feb 2013 #22

Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:25 AM

1. Sorry, but tying any sort of draft to the military in any sort of way is a mistake,

 

You're simply feeding more bodies into the maw of the beast.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:29 AM

2. The volunteer military has done that...big time..

If everyone's child is at risk, the public may start to get more involved in "choosing" the conflicts we enter.

We have taken a casual interest because too many people are ready to say.."Well they CHOSE to join, so....."

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Response to SoCalDem (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:31 AM

3. How did that work in Vietnam?

 

Just feeding more kids into that bloody maw. For over ten years.

You starve the beast, you don't stuff it full and hope it makes the right decision.

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Response to SoCalDem (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:37 AM

9. Except we learned that wasn't true in Vietnam, when we got rid of student deferments.

We had years of protests, and tens of thousands additional deaths.

After the war, we got rid of the draft BECAUSE of Vietnam, because we learned that all the draft did was give the military easier access to troops for their schemes.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:37 AM

4. We need to pass the Equal Rights Amendment first. That's been on hold for a century, now.

You cannot demand that the draft be fired up (and we have a draft, we just do not use it) when half the country is excluded from service.

Passage of the ERA would pull down that false chivalry and make all citizens, regardless of gender, part of the conscription process. That's the only way a national service requirement could work.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:42 AM

5. Why not a national apprentice program? Or another long-term CCC effort?

Keep it 100% unrelated to the MIC so that it benefits the many instead of the few.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:47 AM

6. That's precisely why I called it a National-service draft.

Not everyone would choose military..some still would, but most would probably go another way.. In ANY case it would be a two year stint in service to society...

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Response to SoCalDem (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:53 AM

7. I'm with you on the National Service Program

Provided it is not tied to the military whatsoever...

I would oppose 100% of this program if even 10% of this program required military participation.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:58 AM

8. 1 in 3 servicewomen experience sexual assault

Such service would place our young women in situations in which they are unprotected, and because of the indentured nature of this service, no ability to walk away.

Surely we can come up with rational programs that allow autonomy and personal safety in order to achieve your aims. We could start with universal health care, for example.

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Response to Small Accumulates (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:39 AM

10. Yes! This would be an insane way to take way of health care needs.

What an odd way to argue for universal conscription.

Welcome to DU, Small Accumulates!

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:39 AM

11. we would be careful about which wars to go into if all our kids had to go to war

its easier to wage war with other people's children

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:49 AM

14. Other people's children is a sacrifice I'm willing to make...

 

Until I'm past draft age.

I favor a repeal of the 2nd amendment, but it'd look pretty nice to me if someone tried to force me to fight in a conflict I didn't support.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:34 PM

20. Except history doesn't bear that out.

It gives the military lots of cheap cannon fodder to play with, and there's a perverse application of the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Since no one wants to admit that they just pissed away thousands of unwilling draftees in a completely pointless war, sending draftees in helps make any war in which they're involved a "necessary" war. So in Vietnam, long after it was quite obvious that North Vietnam posed no threat to the security of America or its political structures, many people probably still supported the war precisely because admitting this would essentially be an admission that the US government had dragged thousands of unwilling young men out of their towns and sent them to die solely because LBJ and Nixon didn't want to feel less manly then Ho Chi Minh.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)


Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:47 AM

13. Oh lord, here we go again.

this topic usually pops up about twice a year. And like all the times past, it fails in a blaze of weirdness as it becomes a grudge match of hyperbole.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:51 AM

15. It would create a sense of we

And a more serving your community approach

And as you said, not all need to go into the armed forces. A ccc kind of a program woud ave same effects and help rebuild infrastructure.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:25 PM

18. Or, mass drafts can only occur where there is a pre-existing sense of intense nationalism.

Trying to draft millions of unwilling, apathetic teenagers to engage in "patriotic" corvee labor when there is no existing community pressure to bow before such nationalistic authoritarianism will result in millions of apathetic, low-quality laborers.

I know at that age (BTW, at that age I was willingly working construction for college savings), if I'd been "drafted" into some ill-conceived national labor force I would have been a cheerfully crappy worker, unless Gin-Drinking and Doobie-Smoking would have been considered marks of a good worker.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:05 PM

16. I did 2 years of national service, teaching in local Title I schools.

The medical care was minimal and it was incredibly difficult to use. I ended up paying for care out of pocket later rather than face a protracted court battle.

Worse, you can't live on the stipend. I worked 50 hours a week and the stipend was $900 a month. Most of the people on my team were on food stamps, and we all had to seek help at local food banks in order to eat. $900 a month in a city is a bad joke.

If we want to make national service viable, we need for people to be able to actually get by while they're doing it.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:15 PM

17. We could do much the same by allowing Walmart to indenture the underprivileged

The Walmart Board of Directors would obviously need som tax cuts, subsidies and release from certain labor laws. to offset the expense of medical and education benefits,

Indentured would be housed in special dormitory camps, indentured leaving the premises without written releases from their obligations would be considered contraband and could be relocated downriver to secure employment sites

Job-creators would be allowed to hot-bunk the indentured and to feed them saw-dust based bread products.

Listening to Wagner opera's while working could count for education credits.

Failure to perform would be a capital offense, with all bodies disposed by cremation after collection of recyclable assets to offset the investments in the workers made by job-creators.

On edit, recyclable assets could be loosely defined to enable transplantable tissues (cells, organs, bones) to be harvested and sold in international trade.






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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:31 PM

19. Why are so many people so keen on extracting involuntary labor from the young?

It's bad enough that corporate America demands a pound of flesh from interns, but any kind of compulsory service program lowers the floor of an already weak labor market. This kind of service fetishism is every bit as stupid as the Republican belief that tax cuts will stimulate the economy.

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Response to JVS (Reply #19)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:42 PM

21. What part of "Wal-Mart Supply Chain" don't you understand?

The enslaved sneaker-makers on Saipan, or the 'relocated surplus rural women' of the Chinese electronics industry?

This is a GLOBAL ECONOMY!!!!!! If the US is going to be successful we MUST compete with Saipan and southern China.

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Response to SoCalDem (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:48 PM

22. Hmm...sounds a little familiar...

The well-regulated Militias...


If it should be decided to reject a standing Army for the military branch of the Government of the United States as possessing too feirce an aspect, and being hostile to the principles of liberty it will follow that a well constituted Militia ought to be established. A consideration of the subject will show the impracticability of disciplining at once the mass of the people. All discussions on the subject of a powerful Militia will result in one or the other of the following principles.

First:
Either efficient institutions must be established for the military education of the youth, and that the knowledge acquired therein shall be diffused throughout the community by the mean of rotation.

Or Secondly:
That the Militia must be formed of substitutes, after the manner of the Militia of Great Britain.

If the United States possess the vigor of mind to establish the first institution, it may reasonably be expected to produce the most unequivocal advantages— A glorious national spirit will be introduced with its extensive train of political consequences— the youth will imbibe a love of their country— reverence and obedience to its laws— courage and elevation of mind— openness and liberality of character— accompanied by a just spirit of honor. In addition to which their bodies will acquire a robustness— greatly conducive to their personal happiness as well as the defence of their country— While habit with its silent but efficacious operations will durably cement the system.
...
The well informed members of the community, actuated by the highest motives of self love { ha ha ha}, would form the real defence of the country— Rebellions would be prevented or suppressed with ease Invasions of such a Government would be undertaken only by madmen and the virtues and knowledge of the people would effectually oppose the introduction of Tyranny.


A PLAN for the GENERAL ARRANGEMENT
of the MILITIA of the UNITED STATES
Henry Knox
Secretary of War
1786

Hmmm...Maybe we can tie this mandatory service in with better gun control.

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