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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:41 AM

I wonder how many people claiming Dorner was denied due process

also cheer Julian Assange refusing to stand trial?

48 replies, 2136 views

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Arrow 48 replies Author Time Post
Reply I wonder how many people claiming Dorner was denied due process (Original post)
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 OP
JVS Feb 2013 #1
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #3
JVS Feb 2013 #11
joeglow3 Feb 2013 #33
JVS Feb 2013 #34
joeglow3 Feb 2013 #48
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #36
Earth_First Feb 2013 #2
LineLineReply 2
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #4
EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #5
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #9
bemildred Feb 2013 #6
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #13
bemildred Feb 2013 #19
lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #44
RandiFan1290 Feb 2013 #7
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #8
RandiFan1290 Feb 2013 #14
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #17
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #10
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #15
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #18
11 Bravo Feb 2013 #22
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #25
11 Bravo Feb 2013 #32
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #37
Light House Feb 2013 #40
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #27
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #30
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #31
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #35
OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #45
global1 Feb 2013 #12
The Straight Story Feb 2013 #16
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #20
The Straight Story Feb 2013 #21
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #23
Light House Feb 2013 #41
Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #42
Light House Feb 2013 #43
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #24
The Straight Story Feb 2013 #28
msanthrope Feb 2013 #26
Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #29
theKed Feb 2013 #39
msanthrope Feb 2013 #46
Light House Feb 2013 #38
Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #47

Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:59 AM

1. Not really decided on the whole Dorner thing, but the premise of your thread seems to be that...

it is hypocritical for some DUers to oppose what they consider to be a summary execution and at the same time to be supportive of Assange's refusal to answer to trumped up charges that are pursued as a means to punish him for his activism. I'm not seeing where you find the inconsistency here. Why would anybody who supports due process would consider themselves obligated to support politically motivated prosecution? I think your idea needs more time at the drawing board.

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Response to JVS (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:02 AM

3. "Assange's refusal to answer to trumped up charges"

Did you discern that via due process?

Answer thus far: 1

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:14 AM

11. Don't you count me. I've not formed an opinion yet. I'm just trying to see the point of your...

question. Where is the conflict between the two positions you seem to dislike?

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Response to JVS (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:35 AM

33. For someone who hasn't formed an opinion, you chose some intersting words

I fail to see how you could use those words without forming an opinion.

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Response to joeglow3 (Reply #33)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:45 AM

34. It's too bad that you fail to see how one can understand what people say about something without...

subscribing to something.

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Response to JVS (Reply #34)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 02:01 PM

48. "trumped-up charges" is a statement of opinion

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Response to JVS (Reply #11)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:56 AM

36. Assange fled after due process didn't go his way.

He's in no danger of getting Gitmo'ed or droned or black sited by virtue of the fact he stood in a UK court all that time and freely walked the streets of London. If Obama (or the dark shadowy PTB I hear about so often from others) wanted him bad enough they had plenty of opportunities. I refuse to believe the nation that can zot Usama bin Laden would be too helpless to snatch Assange from a client state.

Meanwhile, Dorner was not denied due process because he shot and killed a forest service police officer (not LAPD) who happened to drive past him and take notice. He died in the ensuing confrontation rather than go to court where he could spew whatever diatribe he wanted in what surely would have been the most televised trial ever.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:01 AM

2. One is choosing to refuse the kangaroo court...

and one was denied it.

How difficult is that to understand?

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:04 AM

4. 2

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:04 AM

5. If Assange truly cared about the freedom of information...

 

He'd give himself up as a martyr and allow the non-alleged-rapists that did all the actual hard work to continue.

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Response to EastKYLiberal (Reply #5)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:13 AM

9. Are you saying there was a rape committed by other rapists and Assange is being framed for it?

Serious question. I've read your post several times.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:06 AM

6. Logic is not your strongest suit, is it?

It is true that anti-authoritarian types that support Assange will also likely "sympathize" with Dorner's rampage, or his motives anyway, but it is not because of any affection for the "justice system" in either case.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:17 AM

13. So the same justice system that is prosecuting Murdoch's henchmen

is also probably persecuting Assange by sending him back to a country to face charges trumped up by victims who were supporters laying in wait (literally).

Lots of verdicts, so little due process.

3, so far.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #13)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:28 AM

19. Yep, there is nothing that says the justice system has to always be misused.

In fact it has to work properly most of the time or misusing it stops working as well, people notice, it loses credibility, so ...

Due process has always been denied at the limits, looking back I am tempted to think it's better today, but I know it's not.

In this case, I would say Dorner got what he wanted, Assange is naive and did not.

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Response to bemildred (Reply #6)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:34 AM

44. +1.

Dorner's denial of due process isn't a "claim", and Assange isn't being pursued in the interest of justice.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:06 AM

7. Are people claiming this?

Maybe you should ask in a thread where they are claiming this.

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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:11 AM

8. It seems this thread is drawing them out.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #8)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:18 AM

14. See how easy that was?

I didn't have to start a new thread to ask you a question.




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Response to RandiFan1290 (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:23 AM

17. To be fair

it would quite time-consuming to search by-name posts of Dorner apologists and cross-reference those with apologies of Assange and even then it would probably violate TOS as a "call-out."

However, having them to reveal themselves is their facorite past time.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:13 AM

10. Dorner was denied due process, and Assange needs to face the music.

However, there are very few parallels between the two.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:19 AM

15. I'm not addressing teh cases, just their apologists.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #15)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:24 AM

18. I don't consider myself to be much of an apologist for Dorner. He was clearly a murderer.

But he, too, was murdered.

But, I get your point. There are those here at DU ...

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #18)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:33 AM

22. Dorner was not murdered. Murder is defined as "the unlawful killing of a human being".

Dorner was killed after HE murdered a law enforcement officer, exchanged fire with others, and refused to surrender. There was nothing "unlawful" about his death. If you don't like the way it went down, that's your perogative; but calling it "murder" is flatly false.

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Response to 11 Bravo (Reply #22)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:43 AM

25. What a ridiculous rationalization. It was murder, and everything suggests it was premeditated murder

Murder in the first degree.

They weren't even positive it was him in the cabin until the found his i.d.

My God.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #25)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:33 AM

32. Most people outgrow the notion that "It's this way because I WANT it to be" by adolescence.

By no definition (other than the one you WANT it to be) was the killing of Christopher Dorner a murder.

I understand that you wish it had been handled differently, but your wishes are not automatically codified into law.

(And FYI finding his driver's license was not considered a positive identification. However, the body has now been positively ID'd via Dorner's dental records.)

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Response to 11 Bravo (Reply #32)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:56 AM

37. Straight to the insult.

Take off. I'm done with you.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #25)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:21 AM

40. In no way can this be classified as a murder.

 

It's a justifiable homicide. Dorner is the only one who denied Dorner due process.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #10)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:52 AM

27. Two questions: 1. Are all people killed in shootouts with the police "denied due process"?....

2. As far as Assange is concerned, as a citizen of another country, what US laws has he broken and what "music" should he face?

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:17 AM

30. Good god. What a silly game. No thanks.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:20 AM

31. "Silly game"? Really?? Is that the best you can do?....

...Why waste time responding at all?

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Response to OldDem2012 (Reply #31)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:55 AM

35. Why give me an unrelated scenario (shootout) and an intentionally obtuse question?

No, you just want to argue, and I'm not in the mood.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:05 AM

45. That's a strange position to take on a discussion board, don't you think?...

...You made a statement and I asked for more information to help me understand what you posted.

Just my opinion, but I think your response tells me all I want to know.

Have a great day.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:14 AM

12. Good Thing The Fire Wasn't Caused By A Drone.......nt

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:20 AM

16. Well, given how govt's are killing suspects when they can, Assange needs to stay far away

from such entities before he has an 'accident'.

If due process is 'we have him cornered, lets kill him' to you than would you also cheer the government, when they get their hands on someone they fear and are pissed at, somehow doing the same with assange? After all we could just label him a terrorist and blow him up when he is on a bus full of little kids and call that 'due process/defending America' and no one would ask for proof otherwise.

Due process remains something that is due for many which they will never get because they can no longer talk to defend themselves.


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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #16)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:28 AM

20. Seems a bit hyperbolic.

You're kinda falling into the group the OP is calling out.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #20)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:30 AM

21. Nah, I think hyperbolic might be saying something is, without addressing anything

in a substantial way.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:39 AM

23. Okay, let's not worry about the word. Let's talk about the substance.

A bunch of angry cops from the LA area cornered Dorner who they felt was guilty of murder within the "family". So, now he's gone. Point taken: no due process.

Assange allegedly has broken a handful of laws (ignoring the rape charge for a moment), most of which deal with security issues. If the US government wanted him dead for his nasty little leaks, he'd be dead. They wouldn't need a legion of incompetent cops (who can fire over 100 bullets at two innocent people and only hit the mark twice) to clumsily bludgeon him to death or burn him or drop a piano on his head. Assange would simply die. Arresting him and killing him in jail would be too noisy, too dirty.

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #23)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:26 AM

41. You do know that this wasn't an LAPD op don't you?

 

LAPD had nothing to do with the final chapter of Dorner, it was the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Dept. op with tactical assistance from the U.S. Marshal's Service and the FBI.
It wasn't even in L.A. County, it happened in San Bernardino County.

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Response to Light House (Reply #41)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:27 AM

42. You do know I didn't say LA cop, don't you?

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Response to Buzz Clik (Reply #42)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:30 AM

43. Ok.

 

I just wasn't sure, there have been people who have said that the LAPD were the ones that ran the op.
Sorry about that.

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #21)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:40 AM

24. Assange stood in a British court for over a year fighting extradition

and when he wasn't in court he was free to walk the streets. If the US wanted Assange bad enough Obama could have ordered the CIA to snatch him up or had the UK do it.

Nor is it likely or even suspected that Sweden would do likewise after Assange was accused by women who were once his ardent confederates.

This is just a morbid fantasy to escape due process which seems to betray a consciousness of guilt.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:53 AM

28. The point is not about assange/dorner though, but about applying principals

In assange's case he did, as you have just pointed out, get due process - he used the law to fight extradition to a place where he believed he would not get a fair trial. Something any intelligent person would do - he had options to exercise after being in custody.

Dorner never got into custody. Perhaps he shot himself, in which case tough luck. However the police here had the ability to out last him, bring in a negotiator, and possibly capture him alive. For all we know he went insane, he is still due his day in court.

The base principal that I focus on is that the police are the not ones who convict someone of a crime and carry out punishment in the manner they did here. He is shooting, you shoot back in self defense, that is one thing. When you have someone trapped and can sit behind your vehicles with swat snipers pointed at every window you could pretty much call that scene secure (which it was not initially).

Once it is secured and the heat of battle is over, you now have an obligation to ensure you do all you can to get the person wanted their due process. But he killed cops. So they would kill him. If he had been some white guy who killed black gang members I am guessing they wouldn't have burned the place down.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:48 AM

26. If you read the Assange rape apologia threads with any regularity,

it is exactly the same self proclaimed 'progressives' and 'anti-authoritarian' types who champion both men.

I'm a criminal defense attorney. These are exactly the jurors I pick--they will invent reasons why your guy is innocent and being framed because they emotionally invest with the accused as opposed to the victim. This is especially true for drugs and sex crimes.

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Response to msanthrope (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:07 AM

29. Forgive me for overly redacting your post, but if I may --

...types who champion ... men... they will invent reasons why your guy is innocent and being framed because they emotionally invest with the accused as opposed to the victim. This is especially true for ... sex crimes.


You'd think self-proclaimed progressives would be the first to reject notions that women are sexual chattel in service a patriarchichal social order.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #29)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:17 AM

39. Is it

Witch hunting season already?
I'd better get my permit

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Reply #29)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:19 AM

46. No...in fact what you find when you read the Assange/Polanski/DFK apologia

threads is a curious thing--- the notion that a man's political leaning or the art they create is somehow indicative of their character... you find even self proclaimed feminists on this board indulging in ludicrous CIA conspiracies in order to protect certain males.

As you noted upthread, Assange is behaving exactly as a guilty person would. The only people who cannot see that are those emotionally invested in a man they've never met.












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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:11 AM

38. I'm not one of those that subscribe to the notion that Dorner was denied due process.

 

Dorner had ample opportunity to surrender during the week he was on the run, he could have and should have contacted a lawyer, the media, and trusted acquaintances and gone to any police station of his choice, didn't have to be an LAPD station, and surrendered in front of all those witness's.

Instead, Dorner continued his murderous rampage and in the end, still refused to surrender.
The only who denied Dorner due process, was Dorner himself.

The country and the world are a better place without this murderous monster.
Unfortunately, he destroyed lives and families before he was taken down, he didn't afford them due process.

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Response to Nuclear Unicorn (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:46 AM

47. The people who were denied due process in this story were the people who got shot at by

police who were not Dorner, who did not look like him, whose auto did not share color, make or model with his, who were not warned, who were not in fact asked to identify themselves much less to surrender before they were blasted with a hail of police gunfire.

I suggest that even had that been Dorner, what they did was not acceptable. Shoot first, ask questions later. Let God sort them out.
If your concern is for rights denied then there you go. Cops opening fire on random vehicles without warning and without any reason to fire whatsoever.
Fellow citizens, innocent in every way, shot at and you suggest we speak of Dorner and Assange? I really don't get it. Sorry.

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