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Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:34 AM

It's Just Shocking What the Drone War Cheerleaders Are Willing to Say Out Loud

http://www.alternet.org/world/its-just-shocking-what-drone-war-cheerleaders-are-willing-say-out-loud

In my years reporting on the intentional narrowing of political vernacular to guarantee specific outcomes, I have encountered no better example of Orwellian newspeak than that which now dominates the conversation about America's drone war. Given that, it's worth reviewing the situation because it is so illustrative of how militarist propaganda operates in the 21st century.

As you know if you've paid attention to recent news, drone war proponents are currently facing inconvenient truths. This month, for instance, they are facing a new United Nations report showing that President Obama's escalation of the Afghanistan War - which is defined, in part, by an escalation in drone airstrikes - is killing hundreds of children "due notably to reported lack of precautionary measures and indiscriminate use of force." They are also facing news that the rise in drone strikes is accompanying a rise in al-Qaida recruits, proving that, in predictable "blowback" fashion, the attacks may be creating more terrorists than they are neutralizing.

Drone-war cheerleaders will no doubt find this news difficult to explain away on the merits. And so many are trying to change the linguistic foundation of the discourse from one rooted in fact to one rooted in a sophistry that narrows the public's perception of available choices.

Sen. Angus King's (I-Maine) comments justifying the drone war last week exemplify the talking points.

"Drones are a lot more civilized than what we used to do," he told a cable television audience. "I think it's actually a more humane weapon because it can be targeted to specific enemies and specific people."

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Reply It's Just Shocking What the Drone War Cheerleaders Are Willing to Say Out Loud (Original post)
xchrom Feb 2013 OP
marmar Feb 2013 #1
xchrom Feb 2013 #2
HiPointDem Feb 2013 #3
Earth_First Feb 2013 #4
Gore1FL Feb 2013 #89
bread_and_roses Feb 2013 #5
redgreenandblue Feb 2013 #6
John2 Feb 2013 #7
Hissyspit Feb 2013 #9
truedelphi Feb 2013 #109
zeemike Feb 2013 #11
DaveJ Feb 2013 #12
MadHound Feb 2013 #24
DaveJ Feb 2013 #27
MadHound Feb 2013 #28
frylock Feb 2013 #98
Arctic Dave Feb 2013 #31
mpdog Feb 2013 #35
Arctic Dave Feb 2013 #38
pscot Feb 2013 #49
morningfog Feb 2013 #64
Martin Eden Feb 2013 #85
DaveJ Feb 2013 #86
nvme Feb 2013 #96
frylock Feb 2013 #99
Martin Eden Feb 2013 #112
Hissyspit Feb 2013 #114
Hissyspit Feb 2013 #118
GeorgeGist Feb 2013 #88
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #91
Hissyspit Feb 2013 #113
sibelian Feb 2013 #116
Hissyspit Feb 2013 #119
RC Feb 2013 #17
DaveJ Feb 2013 #25
RC Feb 2013 #37
A Simple Game Feb 2013 #20
99Forever Feb 2013 #21
frylock Feb 2013 #100
bahrbearian Feb 2013 #23
glowing Feb 2013 #29
daleanime Feb 2013 #41
PDittie Feb 2013 #33
Chef Eric Feb 2013 #36
daleanime Feb 2013 #39
bobclark86 Feb 2013 #40
graham4anything Feb 2013 #50
Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #56
sabrina 1 Feb 2013 #67
daleanime Feb 2013 #72
JEB Feb 2013 #95
GeorgeGist Feb 2013 #87
frylock Feb 2013 #97
sibelian Feb 2013 #115
Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #8
G_j Feb 2013 #10
Pryderi Feb 2013 #13
bullwinkle428 Feb 2013 #14
RC Feb 2013 #19
frylock Feb 2013 #102
awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #45
frylock Feb 2013 #103
n2doc Feb 2013 #15
The Link Feb 2013 #16
90-percent Feb 2013 #18
Heather MC Feb 2013 #22
Doctor_J Feb 2013 #26
RC Feb 2013 #43
frylock Feb 2013 #104
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #30
awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #47
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #73
awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #93
JimDandy Feb 2013 #77
a2liberal Feb 2013 #32
MNBrewer Feb 2013 #34
stupidicus Feb 2013 #42
FarCenter Feb 2013 #44
patrice Feb 2013 #46
MadHound Feb 2013 #48
patrice Feb 2013 #51
MadHound Feb 2013 #54
patrice Feb 2013 #53
MadHound Feb 2013 #57
patrice Feb 2013 #55
MadHound Feb 2013 #59
patrice Feb 2013 #61
patrice Feb 2013 #63
MadHound Feb 2013 #66
MadHound Feb 2013 #65
patrice Feb 2013 #69
patrice Feb 2013 #60
MadHound Feb 2013 #62
whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #52
Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #58
JimDandy Feb 2013 #80
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #68
mikeytherat Feb 2013 #70
Oilwellian Feb 2013 #71
rhett o rick Feb 2013 #74
theaocp Feb 2013 #75
frylock Feb 2013 #105
treestar Feb 2013 #76
theaocp Feb 2013 #81
dodgecharger Feb 2013 #78
Cooley Hurd Feb 2013 #79
dodgecharger Feb 2013 #82
Cooley Hurd Feb 2013 #83
indepat Feb 2013 #84
blackspade Feb 2013 #90
lib2DaBone Feb 2013 #92
blkmusclmachine Feb 2013 #94
busterbrown Feb 2013 #101
lib2DaBone Feb 2013 #107
Amonester Feb 2013 #108
ReRe Feb 2013 #106
DeSwiss Feb 2013 #110
Theyletmeeatcake2 Feb 2013 #111
woo me with science Feb 2013 #117

Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:47 AM

1. k/r......The attempts to justify and rationalize this are sad to watch.

nt

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Response to marmar (Reply #1)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:51 AM

2. +1

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:52 AM

3. sad and horrifying indeed.

 

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:57 AM

4. "It's essentially a helicopter!"

My favorite domestic use appology...

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #4)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:05 PM

89. Domestic?

When they start arming them an apology for using that analogy will be in order. It is uncanny how few innocent people unarmed drones kill annually.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:02 AM

5. K&R (n/t)

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:09 AM

6. "And so many are trying to change the linguistic foundation of the discourse

from one rooted in fact to one rooted in a sophistry that narrows the public's perception of available choices."

Yes. We had such a thread going on here not too long ago...

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:17 AM

7. Do the whiners

 

about Drone warfare have any statistics about how many innocent people, including women and children the terrorists have killed? How many innocent people have they killed in suicide bombs in the name of their religious extremism? I think your efforts should be focused on that issue. And there is no such animal as a sterile war. War is hell!

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:41 AM

9. Yes, we know.

We have to kill the children in order to save them. From futurewar. You are right. It is war. Stop the war.

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Response to Hissyspit (Reply #9)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:43 AM

109. Plus these kids are not American kids.

They live in the type of nations that the Super Powers like to test their new weaponry on.
From all the boo hoo hooing, ya'd think these were white kids whose lives meant something.




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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:49 AM

11. Wow...a perfect example of what the OP is about...thanks.

I call it emotional blackmail...you must not look at the reasons for it because something evil happened...and the only solution is to be evil too....and if you say anything about why you support the murders.

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:49 AM

12. As I've said before, I also see nobody volunteering to catch these killers.

It baffles me that, if you read between the lines, these self proclaimed liberals (nothing wrong with that, but I doubt they really are) are suggesting that we send folks into enemy territory in order to capture them.

As we've seen this results in thousands of young, dead men and women who had a bright life ahead of them otherwise. Thousands more coming back without limbs and with horrible mental trauma.

I would never send someone into that kind of situation if there were any other choice. That is simple cruel to do. It's pretentious. It's thoughtless.

After 9/11, I knew there were better ways to handle the situation than to send thousands to their deaths. But these people seem to want that to happen again. Oh no, let me correct myself... they would never say they want that. Just implement policies that would make it happen eventually and then pretend like they had nothing to do with it.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:24 AM

24. Wow, you make some pretty serious accusations there pal,

 

Got anything besides your own hot air to back up your happy ass?

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Response to MadHound (Reply #24)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:27 AM

27. That makes no sense whatsoever.

I do see you have a fascination with my gastrointestinal system, and that makes me feel uncomfortable.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #27)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:38 AM

28. Then let me spell it out for you like I would a two year old,

 

You accuse liberals of wanting to send in the troops rather than drones. Or at least wanting to implement policies to that effect.

Where is your proof? You know, something solid, not something that you "read between the lines."

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #27)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:11 AM

98. you might want to take a good look around your gastrointestinal system..

as long as you have your head up your ass.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:55 AM

31. Seems to me, the killers are the "troops".

 

Since very few if any of the people they are killing pose any real threat to this country.

But let's face it, a lot of the "troops" like the killing like that shitbag "hero" that was killed in Texas.

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Response to Arctic Dave (Reply #31)


Response to mpdog (Reply #35)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:13 AM

38. Let me get you a tissue and a fainting couch.

 

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:37 AM

49. So anonymous, risk free slaughter of our little brown brothers

is OK as long as we don't have to get dirty doing it? Maybe we should just nuke 'em. How much "collateral damage" is too much?

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:00 AM

64. Pre-killers.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:02 PM

85. You offer a false choice

Unless I misunderstand, you're saying if we didn't employ the use of drones we'd have to deploy boots on the ground, which would not only result in American casualties but probably more deaths "over there" as well.

Does that fairly sum up your point?

There are many other options, starting with neither.

I think we need to rethink the whole concept of the "war" on terror. Declaring we are at "war" without a formal declaration of war is a recipe for the use of lethal force almost anywhere in the world we can do so with relative impugnity; it's also a recipe for abuse of power.

The potential consequences go far beyond the deaths of innocents mistakenly targeted or in the wrong place at the wrong time (aka "collateral damage"); by our own actions we may be helping to recruit the next generation of terrorists with a mantra of death to America.

Blowback is a bitch.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #85)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:15 PM

86. Given that I do not have access to all the intelligence

I will trust the judgement of many who do know, such as Obama, and Hillary Clinton who said in reference to drones, "We will always maintain our right to use force against groups such as al Qaeda that have attacked us and still threaten us with imminent attack."

In regard to the logical issue you're presenting, you seem to be presenting the logic that attacking is not necessary at all, which does not seem to be an issue with drones, but the idea of using force overall. My opinion is that if force is necessary, i'd rather use drones than send over people to do it.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #86)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:25 PM

96. Drone=Epic fail

When a president, or members of our military have to look the grieving family members in they eyes, then they understand the cost of war. When there is a protest in Karachi over a drone strike, there is no real consequence. They are more likely to initiate drone strikes with impunity. Basic behavioral Science. The long term consequence is more disillusionment with America. It becomes a recruiting poster. Those damnable drones just make it that much easier to kill.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #86)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:15 AM

99. same thing the bush fanbois said..

you don't know what the president knows!! 1

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #86)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 08:07 AM

112. What is "necessary" is 1/4 of the crux of my issue with drones

The recent memo stretches to the breaking point the concept of "imminent" attack:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/editorials/2013/02/16/drone-memo-offers-weak-justification.html
"The memo gives an extraordinarily broad interpretation of imminent, noting that “the condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that specific attacks on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future.”

Basically: There need not be evidence of an imminent threat for a target to be deemed an imminent threat."



That calls into question the "necessity" of these attacks.

Secondly (as I explained in my previous post) the long term consequences of these drone attacks & collateral damage could serve to increase rather than decrease threats to the security of American citizens.

Third, applying the concept of war powers to a never-ending "war" against those we deem to be terorists bestows powers on a permanent basis that are meant to be the exception not the rule. You may trust this president, but I trust no one with those kind of powers and even less someone who might come after this particular president. Once established, the exercise of such powers tends to expand.

Fourth, extrajudicial executions violates the basic foundation of our system of justice and human rights. They get around this by asserting we are at "war" but I don't believe this constitutes war by historical standards or as defined in our Constitution. Accepting the "collateral damage" as an unfortunate byproduct of "war" is therefor unacceptable, and morally wrong. The United States is killing more innocent people than Americans being killed by al Qaeda. Think about that for a minute, then tell me who is the greater terrorist.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #86)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:23 AM

114. Wow, two right-wing talking points.

from the Bush era right there in the first sentence.

"I don't know what they know."

"Always trust your leaders."

meh.

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Response to Martin Eden (Reply #85)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:13 PM

118. False dichotomies.

George W. Bush was a big fan of those. Fed about one a day to the American people.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:54 PM

88. You can make this shit up.

Well done.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #12)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:22 PM

91. The alternative isn't just to send people in to catch the criminals.

The alternative is to have some independent body that reviews plans to use drones and OKs or denies requests for their use on a case-by-case basis.

Drones could be a double-handled sword.

If we use drones on those we think are dangerous to us, those who are dangerous to us may get drones and use them on us.

We need to think carefully about what we are doing here.

It is true that drones do not kill and frighten as many innocent people as the bombs of WWII did. But it is also true, that drones can surprise unsuspecting innocents, something that bombs and actually putting in troops to find and imprisons people do not do.

So there are a lot of moral issues that need to be discussed and resolved before declaring drones to be OK or not.

American citizens have a right to habeas corpus. In case of an "insurrection" the president may suspend habeas corpus.

Article I, Section 9 U.S. Constitution

The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei

The president needs to comply with the Constitution if he is suspending habeas corpus. Are we in a state of rebellion. Has the public safety been invaded? How are these things defined legally?

All these questions and probably a number more need to be decided before we start improvising away from the Constitution and perhaps watching our freedom be eroded out of existence.

By the way, I do not want to insult you personally but I think I should remind people in general that Article I of the Constitution concerns the powers of Congress. The NDAA was enacted by Congress but I don't know whether it stated that we are in a state of rebellion or that the public safety has been invaded. I don't know whether Congress satisfied the Constitutional requirements before passing it.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #12)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 10:21 AM

113. 1. We don't necessarily know they are killers.

2. Sending troops is not the answer, either, as many of us have been pointing out for ten years.
3. Blowing up innocent children is cruel, too.
4. Yes, I'm a fucking liberal. And so is pretty much everyone else you are referring to.

An amazing mass of false choices all through your post.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #12)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:44 AM

116. Oh, pathetic. "After 9/11"...


"9/11" has got away enough, m'kay?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #116)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 04:27 PM

119. Don't you love how we're not good liberals

if we don't go along with or question policies that get children blown up.

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:09 AM

17. Well, seeing how with each drone strike, it has already been proven that we generate more terrorists

 

your question doesn't make all that much sense.
Especially since most or none of the countries we are using these drones, are we at war with.
Have you ask yourself how many innocents we have killed vs what the so-called terrorist have killed? Do the victims even care if they are killed by our terrorism, or their own home grown terrorism?
How much of the home grown kind are we responsible for as being blow-back to our war on terror?

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Response to RC (Reply #17)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:25 AM

25. A "rise in al-Qaida recruits" doesn't necessarily mean more terrorists

An increase in membership (what do they have memberships cards maybe?) does not necessarily make al-Qaida more dangerous. We are after people with no moral fiber, murderers, that's a special breed. People who join a club because they are understandably upset do not necessarily have the genetics necessary to spend their entire lives dedicated to murder.

And it is uncalled for that anyone in the U.S. associate our own military with "terrorism". That's little different than the mentality of the mythical hippy spitting in the faces of our soldiers.

Listen I know that things can get out of hand with war. It can spiral out of control.

But I also know that it is unbelievable how sadistic humans can be. I do not know about you, but I've seen incredibly mean morally bankrupt people with no regard for others. And yes unfortunately they live among kids and kids will suffer as a result.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #25)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:11 AM

37. Then explain "Shock and Awe" in the middle of the night, in retaliation for 9/11, in a country that

 

had nothing to do with 9/11.
Tens of thousands of innocent people died that night. None of whom deserved to die.

And it is uncalled for that anyone in the U.S. associate our own military with "terrorism". That's little different than the mentality of the mythical hippy spitting in the faces of our soldiers.

I came home during that war (1966), wearing my uniform. I never had any trouble at all. Those "Hippy's" {sic} did not exist because those hippies were smart enough to know the difference between our government and the soldiers they drafted.
I lived what is History to you.

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:14 AM

20. Is that how you measure a terrorist? By how many innocent people are killed?

I don't know a number, but yes the terrorists have killed thousands of innocent people. No doubt about it, they are bad people for doing so.

But by invading Afghanistan and Iraq we have killed many more thousands of innocents. Shock and awe alone must have killed many thousands. This does not even count the drone killings.

By your logic we are bigger terrorists than the terrorists. Many in the world also support your viewpoint.

Or is killing innocents ok if you do it for a good cause? Then again the other side think their cause is the good one.

Just to save some time, if you tell me they started it, I will just tell you to study a little history. Remember other cultures have very long memories.

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:17 AM

21. WE'll see how happy you are with this stance...

... when the people we are now turning into enemies, will as ALWAYS happens, develop this same long distance, remote control murder by machines and start using it on the USA. What song will you be singing then?

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:17 AM

100. he'll be whistling dixie out of his fucking butthole

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:23 AM

23. We've changed the war, were are not fighting religious extremist any more,

we are fighting people who want revenge. The same reason we invaded.

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:39 AM

29. And is it our job to police the world?

From where I sit, we are causing more reasons for people to join these extremist causes, where before they would be content growing poppy in a field or hoarding something on a remote mountainside.

There were probably similar thoughts on the atomic bomb before we dropped 2 on cities full of innocent people. Now, we run around the world fearful of other countries getting nuclear because we do know how destructive they are. We also seem to have our heads in the sand about the drones as well, until that is before terrorists begin to use them on us OR our policing agencies begin to use them on us. I'm quite sure the ones now belonging to the police agencies will accost a citizen on Our soil first. Already they police are using the sound weapon on peaceful protestors along with full armed seat teams, chemical weapons, rubber bullets, and intimidating with tanks rolling out beside them.

The MIC is going to continue bleeding us dry and creating more methods of technological death. It's really on our shoulders to rise up. And I'm not exactly sure how that will happen or what it will look like. The honest truth is that we would win more hearts and minds by providing access to helpful technology like running water, electricity, food, medicine, shelter, access to creating a better existence in their lives and their families lives, along with healthy doses of education. In fact, we would advance our own country with similar initiatives.

Really, with the problems we face as a global community in regards to our environmental issues and living a sustainable lifestyle for now and our future is much more important than building bombs and killing each other. It's much more practical to do away with antiquated wars and death and the spiral of "enemies" that are woven into our fabric of history that perpetuate more sworn enemies for at least as long as a Govt's and wealthy fins it pertinent to have a said enemy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure then intended target on the other side of a drone strike is a "bad guy"; it's just that the target from an unmanned drone with no real ground eyes and unspecified collateral damage makes for a very slippery slope. And we are flying these things into countries that we are not at war with under the umbrella of The War of Terror. When does the terrorist stop being a brown, Muslim extremist in a far away country? And why should it matter? Would we take it lying down if we had random drones flying into the country and taking out a neighborhood because their is one "enemy" living in the community? We certainly didn't take a benign approach after the Twin Towers came down. We didn't send out an expert team and utilize allies in bringing in the terrorists for prosecution like civil human beings... No we went into a country where Al Queda was hiding out in and targeted the entire country and then went off to Iraq to quagmire around in that country that had no ties to 9/11.

At some point some self examination and self awareness of what we allow our leaders to do in our name with our money should occur... And of we don't like what we see, we must have Reps who will do what is right for the people. We seem to be in the downward spiral of an empire. The democratically elected reps won't follow the law and won't enact basic will of the people over their own hubris, greed, and power lust. When most of the country statistically wants out of all war, spend money on infrastructure, a tangible way off of oil, for wealthy and corps to pay their fair share, Medicare for All, better education and access to the education, and a simple background check on weapon owners, then we only have two ways to emerge: 1, better Reps OR 2. total break up of this country.

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Response to glowing (Reply #29)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:20 AM

41. +1

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:59 AM

33. "over 200 children"

As of yesterday, according to Prof. Cornel West (on Tavis Smiley's radio program).

http://www.mediaite.com/online/professor-cornel-west-obama-is-a-war-criminal-like-nixon-and-bush/

But they were just collateral damage. Those kids were palling around with terrorists, after all. (Anyone want to flame West and Smiley, have at it.)

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:09 AM

36. What a great patriot you are!

Thank you for reminding the whiners that we're in a battle against EVIL DOERS. They hate us for our freedoms!

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:14 AM

39. Your continuing the wrong war....

You fight an idea (which is what terrorism is) with other ideas, not drones. Your creating more 'terrorists' then your killing, is that how you win your war?

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:16 AM

40. THEY STARTED IT!

Yup, much like when I got yelled at for smacking my sister when I was five, your response is "Well, they killed MOAR people, so we have a carte blanc to start wanton slaughter!!!"

Who cares what they did? Two wrongs do not make a right, just a thriving military-industrial complex.

Oh, and I like the note about "their" religious extremism. I wonder how many people Christians have killed in the name of THEIR religious extremism...

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:42 AM

50. +1

 

Richard Clarke(hero to progressives and liberals after 9-11) said that drones are the single most humane method of warfare.

As stopping the US from being involved won't stop terrorists and won't stop war, and won't stop anything at all, drones indeed are correct.

I agree with response #7.

imho.

the title is very misleading of this thread
And the argument is a red herring argument.

On record anyone should stand up and say if they would agree that if two weeks before Hitler gave his orders to arrest or put on a train or in a shower anyone, they would not have been happy had a drone struck him down.

I for one (and I am Jewish and my family directly was affected by Hitler) would applaud if 20 million people minus Hitler and say 10 collateral had been killed.

Because 20 million would have been saved, and Hitler and almost certainly the 10 collateral would also have died in the same Holocaust.

Nothing is perfect, because humans are involved, but it is the most humane.

And I don't see anyone wanting to start a draft to have man to man combat, where 10s of thousands or more would die.

IMHO

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:49 AM

56. Yet another post that wouldn't have existed before 2009 nt

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:04 AM

67. What war are you talking about?

Oh, you mean Bush's great WOT? That has apparently failed since it began over 12 years ago and we apparently have not won. This great super power cannot take care of a few terrorists in more than a dozen years? If we have failed so miserably to accomplish the goal of this 'war', maybe it's time to try something that might be more successful.

And btw, more Americans have died at the hands of other Americans since 9/11 than by any 'terror' attack. Over 44,000 Americans died each year due to our government refusing to provide adequate health care for them eg.

Then there are the numerous, tragic massacres committed by other Americans, in schools, in public places, colleges. Not to mention the daily murder rate that kills thousands of Americans each year.

If saving American lives is the goal of these 'wars', it has been a spectacular failure and as noted by many observers, the killing of innocent people only creates enemies, doesn't it?

It's past time that this phony WOT is ended. The danger to American lives appears to be right here in the US but not much effort has been put into saving those lives.

Drones killing people in other countries who have done nothing to us is at the very least, just plain stupid, but I have a feeling it's more about money than anything else.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #67)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:00 PM

72. +infinity

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #67)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:56 PM

95. Exactly correct. Thank you.

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:51 PM

87. Whiner ...

heal thyself.

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:06 AM

97. that whooshing sound you hear? it ain't one of your precious drones.

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Response to John2 (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 11:41 AM

115. Whiner =


automatic lose.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:22 AM

8. Spot on

I saw it immediately, the way in which it has been embraced shows that the concern has never been over the dead but over the optics of it. Looks clean, sounds clean, no flag draped coffin's of americans to see on tv, we will just not cover the thousands of innocent dead from the indiscriminate killing.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:45 AM

10. Well said. K&R

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:57 AM

13. It's the Bush-Cheney Boiled Frog Effect. n/t

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:58 AM

14. K&R. I've seen the "Why do you hate the troops?" argument used here

more than once. I'm so old, I can recall here at DU when every single one of us never hesitated to clown on the Freepturds for pushing that argument when discussing the "War of Terror".

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:12 AM

19. And now it seems that same Freepturd thinking is accepted here as rational opinion.

 

What's the name of this place again?

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Response to RC (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:20 AM

102. secretdronekilllistunderground

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Response to bullwinkle428 (Reply #14)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:34 AM

45. For several different topics...

we have become the type of echo chamber that we used to accuse free republic of being.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #45)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:21 AM

103. word up

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:58 AM

15. A Kinder, Gentler Death Machine

Makes it oh so easy for us on the Home Front to ignore and get on with life!

For those who say the Taliban is worse, yes, so what? Do we want to be known as the high tech, slightly less barbaric version of the Taliban? or Al Qaida? Is that what America aspires to nowadays?

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 08:59 AM

16. I think it is simply because it is Obama doing it.

 

It is similar to the praise of a right wing, anti-gay, anti-choice Republican for Sec of Defense.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:11 AM

18. An appropriate Richard Nixon quote

"If the President does it, it's not illegal"

I'm not comfortable with ANY PRESIDENT having the powers of a Medieval King!

These PRECEDENT SETTING PRESIDENTIAL POWERS will someday be in the hands of a President that is perhaps not as nice as Obama. After all, the American people re-elected GW Bush in 2004! (It woulda been nice if that happened in 2000, also. But, that's what happens with a nakedly partisan Supreme Court sometimes......)

The chances of electing another sociopath monster President considering our current Oligarchy is pretty damn high!

-90% jimmy

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:22 AM

22. What fuck is a "Humane Weapon"

So I guess all the children we are killing should be grateful we killed them in a humane manner.

Someone should send a drone to his house and see how Humane he feels.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:26 AM

26. they're not drone murder cheerleaders

they're Obama cheerleaders. when the next repuke president continues this practice, they'll come back to sanity.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #26)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:31 AM

43. Fixed it for ya.

 

They're not drone murder cheerleaders. They're Obama cheerleaders. When the next repuke president continues this practice, they'll come back to apparent sanity.


Just because they can act sane, doesn't make them so. Hero worship has a tendency to make one blind.

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Response to Doctor_J (Reply #26)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:25 AM

104. i'll be front and center reminding every one of those shitlumps..

Last edited Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:58 AM - Edit history (1)

how much they looooooooved drones too.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:43 AM

30. When you blow people up, the survivors tend to get annoyed.

Even when none of those people could have found the US on a map, once you kill their kids, they start thinking of ways to get back at you.

The war in Afghanistan was never about 9-11. Had that been the case, there would have been no war. There would have been a massive international police action. Has everyone forgotten how the rest of the world stood with us and offered to help?

But no. We needed a war in Afghanistan. Remember Bushco promising the Taliban a carpet of gold if they played nice, but a carpet of bombs if they obstructed us? That was in the summer of 2001, before 9-11. We told them we'd be in there by October if they didn't accede to the demands of the Empire.

We wanted to put pipelines across Afghanistan to transport oil & gas out of the the old Soviet 'stans, and we wanted to mine the rare earths. And we wanted to get all that stuff before the Chinese grabbed it.

So we went to war in Afghanistan for the convenience of the energy & electronics industries, just as we went to war with Iraq so we could divide up their oil fields among our oil companies like you divide up a side of beef.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:36 AM

47. Posts like this...

are why you are one of my favorite DUers.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #47)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:49 PM

73. Flattery will get you

…anywhere.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #73)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:43 PM

93. Ha ha...

Xchrom is on that list, too.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #30)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 06:56 PM

77. Good Post! n/t

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:56 AM

32. Someone _ON DU_ told me I needed to get over my

"pro-Al Qaeda snit". That's right, pro-Al Qaeda because I don't support extra-judicial execution of citizens.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:01 AM

34. Sir, it truly is shocking

what some people, sir, will say. While being superciliously polite, sir.

If President Obama authorizes it, sir, it is completely legal and moral.

really needed?

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:22 AM

42. yep, those things have been obvious from the beginning

which is why I've been asking the droners if they're gonna say "The UN Charter doesn't trump our constitution/law!!!" like the Bushbots did.

I've never found the "Well, we're likely killing fewer innocent people than we use to..." a very convincing or compelling legal/moral argument either. I've long thought that part of the problem is the focus on the weapon as some kinda scalpal v butcher knife thing, when the focus should be on the needless death and the more "death to Americans" mindset they create in a Hydra-like way, on "steroids", in so many.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:33 AM

44. They are better than the old method of firing lots of cruise missiles at terrorists

The August 1998 bombings of Afghanistan and Sudan (codenamed Operation Infinite Reach by the United States) were American cruise missile strikes on terrorist bases in Afghanistan and a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan on August 20, 1998. The attack was in retaliation for the bombings of American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania which killed 224 people (including 12 Americans) and injured 5,000 others.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_missile_strikes_on_Afghanistan_and_Sudan_(August_1998)

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:34 AM

46. There'd be agreement about this if some anti-drone program leaders werent also PRO assault weapons

cheerleaders who fight any pressure for reform in the U.N., which reform could affect the IMF, the source of Disaster Capitalism, that is driving political disasters in other countries, upon which the NRA's assault weapons merchants trade fast-and-furious, thus turning any chance at detente in troubled environments around the world into terrorism

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Response to patrice (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:36 AM

48. And do you actually have any proof of that contention?

 

Frankly, I've never seen anybody here who is anti-drone also be pro assault gun. I'd be interested in any proof or links you have.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:44 AM

51. It's a hypothesis founded on the fact that the NRA is promoting armed overthrow of US government

in Wisconsin.

Did you see those postings here yesterday?

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Response to patrice (Reply #51)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:48 AM

54. A hypothesis, OK, everybody is entitled to have one,

 

The question is, do you have any proof to back up your hypothesis?

No, I didn't see the postings about NRA looking to overthrow the government, but somehow I just don't see a connection between ending drone strikes and overthrowing the government.

Links, proof would be nice, otherwise you're just broadbrush smearing the anti-drone folks.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:47 AM

53. Have you read S. 2205 sponsored by Sen. Moran in the 112th Congress & in the Senate Foreign

Relations Committe now?

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Response to patrice (Reply #53)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:51 AM

57. And it says nothing about drones, pro or con.

 

It is another whackjob bill that will die in committee. But it says nothing about drones.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:49 AM

55. What might the attitude toward drones be in this crowd, link:

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Response to patrice (Reply #55)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:54 AM

59. I don't know, and I always find it pointless to speculate on such things,

 

Especially when nobody mentions them in the original article, or even brings them up.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #59)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:59 AM

61. You don't speculate = you PRETEND THAT THE RISKS ARE 0. point, set, & match.

You are supporting people who are protecting the IMF.

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Response to patrice (Reply #61)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:59 AM

63. and, btw, FOUR fingers!!!!

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Response to patrice (Reply #63)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:04 AM

66. Whoops, and there you go,

 

Talking crazy talk to yourself now.

Bye-bye.

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Response to patrice (Reply #61)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:03 AM

65. OK then, I'll be going now.

 

I have better things to do than converse with somebody who is apparently having an entirely different conversation than I am. Frankly, I'm not even sure what you're talking about anymore, and from the sound of things, you might not either.

Oh, and I suggest that you back slowly away from your computer, you sound like you're about to blow a gasket.

Have a nice day.

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Response to patrice (Reply #61)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:20 AM

69. "I don't speculate..." = PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY, a highly MARKETABLE commodity that produced 9/11.

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Response to MadHound (Reply #48)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:55 AM

60. ***IF*** the problem is DEAD BODIES, how many DEAD BODIES are YOU willing to pay for being wrong?

And, of course, that would be YOU and those amongst whatever group you support whom you have not bothered to vet well enough to ask THEM the same question.

Come on, Madhound, I know there's a chance that I am wrong. Are you honest enough to admit that there is a chance that YOU are wrong?

How many dead bodies are you willing to pay for the chance to pretend that you know enough about everything that could happen to say that there is 0 Risk, domestic or otherwise. How many dead bodies are you willing to pay for being wrong about that (hack, cough, choke) calculation?

If you are opposed to dead bodies and if there is ANY chance that the course of action you support produces dead bodies - what you do is propaganda for the oppressor.

FOUR fingers!!!!

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Response to patrice (Reply #60)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:59 AM

62. Well, that was a grand, nonsensical rant,

 

So nonsensical that I have no idea what you're ranting about, drones, assault weapons, the NRA, me, or something completely different.

All I'm asking for is proof of your contention that anti-drone folks are pro assault weapon. So far all you've come up with is speculation, innuendo, and now this rant. Do you actually have anything solid to back your original contention?

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Response to patrice (Reply #46)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:44 AM

52. You seem to be getting more and more

oUt THeRe...

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:52 AM

58. All the nonsense about "this is more humane than sending the troops in or carpet bombing"

is actually a distraction from the REAL issue, which is why the U.S. government is interfering (and has been interfering for my entire lifetime) in the Middle East.

Oil. Yeah, so instead of finding alternatives to oil to reduce our dependency on the Middle East, we spend literally trillions on military actions against those countries.

What if we had spent those trillions on:

1. Crash programs to find and utilize alternative sources of energy?

2. Mass transit in every city over 250,000 and bus and van programs in smaller communities to cut down on auto use?

3. High-speed rail to cut down on the need for short-hop plane travel?

4. Retrofitting of suburbs to facilitate walking, cycling, and transit?

Oh, but then the middle-aged little boys who like to watch things go boom wouldn't get to feel all macho and stuff. Besides, those projects might actually create jobs, and then we wouldn't have a poverty draft.

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Response to Lydia Leftcoast (Reply #58)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:07 PM

80. I entirely agree!

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:18 AM

68. We have a loud contingent of the "Bring it on", "Smoke 'em out" wing of the party here.

Nothing new, we had an even larger bunch of hawks in the party who supported the Vietnam slaughter.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:25 AM

70. We've been sold the idea of "necessary war." And if you believe in this, drones make sense.

I don't believe in this, so it makes no sense to me. It allows for only two options:

Option 1: Send planes, troops, etc.
Option 2: Send drones

How about Option 3: Neither?

mikey_the_rat

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:54 AM

71. I find it stunning...

to see so many Democrats who now support unilateral war. It's a hell of a precedent we're setting, and the blow back will be brutal. Perhaps one day they'll understand our concerns for this illegal style of war when their own children and grandchildren become victims of it. Remote war is the new frontier baby! But hey, it's more humane.

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Response to Oilwellian (Reply #71)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 04:10 PM

74. That's partly because the Democratic Party is full of republicans. Where else would they

go when their party crumbles? IMO the criteria for being a Democrat is far more than merely calling yourself a Democrat. We must clean the garbage out of our party.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #74)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 04:14 PM

75. That will happen only when a constitutional convention

removes money from politics (wolf-pac.com) or the Republican brand dies to the point that the Democratic Party takes on its role against a new progressive party. Everything else in the meantime is window dressing.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #74)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:03 AM

105. fucking-a

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 05:41 PM

76. I'm pretty sure that in the event of another terrorist attack

The media and the anti-droners would be saying: Why didn't Obama use drones to kill that guy?

War is hell. It would be worse with general carpet bombing or troops using guns and getting shot and killed more often. Or atomic bombs.

We need to get out of Afghanistan, not worry about the details of which type of weapon is used. Be it Sherman tank or drone, we need to get out of there.

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Response to treestar (Reply #76)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:09 PM

81. You think getting out of Afghanistan

is going to stop the drones?

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Response to xchrom (Original post)


Response to dodgecharger (Reply #78)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:04 PM

79. At least we have a hope he will be transparent about it...

...compared to the living Mummy Cheney who thought such queries were "none of our business".

Enjoy your stay.

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Response to Cooley Hurd (Reply #79)


Response to dodgecharger (Reply #82)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:15 PM

83. Actually, drone use has been out there long before he became President.

Your boys started it. Now, he's being forced by the MIC to continue it.

You still here?

I guess not!

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 07:54 PM

84. Lack of precautionary measures and indiscriminate use of force seem to this puppy to have been

modus operandi in the junior-initiated pre-emptive wars of aggression. Who would have ever thunk there would be blow-back, that our actions might be creating more terrorists than it is neutralizing? Nobody could possibly have ever figured out this cause-and-effect eventuality.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 09:09 PM

90. +1000

The 'Ministry of Truth' has no limits or shame

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:34 PM

92. Honest American families are in the crosshairs of drones.....

 

Some of these drones are as large as a pack of cigarettes. They can hover amd record silently outside your bedroom window for up to 14 hours.

It's amazing that any American would not consider these drones a threat to our constitution and privacy.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:55 PM

94. "Dead" is now sanitized into "enhanced unconsciousness" by the Drone cheerleaders.

Then again, half of them are probably Freepers.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 12:20 AM

101. This whole drone operation is done at the quest of our Industrial Military Complex...

I’ll tell you this, if Obama went head to head with the Pentagon and ordered them to stop drone attacks and
after that we we’re attacked on our shores....Obama would immediately become a lame duck president and we would have an eventual political takeover of our govt, by crazed right wing Christers, which when completed would expose our planet to complete peril/destruction.

I hate these fucking drones, but I fear more the the maniacal right wing crazed idiots who would love nothing more than another 911 type attack..

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #101)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:25 AM

107. Very well said...... K/R

 

Another False Flag attack is exactly what we can expect...

The problem is that False Flag attacks are so hard to prove...even if we have 10 different camera angles showing pictures of the WTC, accusing someone of being a "conspirancy" nut, fits their media blitz.... and makes rebuttal almost impossible.

So get ready.. we are going to have a false flag attack... only this time it will not be so easy to dismiss.

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Response to busterbrown (Reply #101)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:27 AM

108. ^^^^this^^^^

I hate them too, but I wonder what the anti-drones crowd would (silently) wish to do if the teahadists had their way across the land, stealing elections, then merging Religion and States by force, outlawing women's rights, banning LGBT people's rights, and doing all they dream to do to innocent people like... like... them!

Do they really think they would defeat them with peaceful protests in the streets? What if they'd get shot at for refusing to get down on their knees and pray, or get tortured until they'd comply?

It's the same "over there" for the Afghan civilians, but the teahadists there are called "Taliban" and their plan is to create a global califate.

Yes, they're THAT crazy, and they must be stopped.

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 01:07 AM

106. Drone Cheerleaders

K&R

Thanks for posting this, xchron. Will come back and read tomorrow. Need to hit the hay tonight!

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 05:06 AM

110. K&R

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Response to DeSwiss (Reply #110)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 06:32 AM

111. 1984 is no longer fiction

Fuck the drones and all that fly them......

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Response to xchrom (Original post)

Sat Feb 16, 2013, 02:56 PM

117. kick

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