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Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:53 PM

If the cops performed vigilante justice on Dorner, so what? He had it coming.

Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:06 AM - Edit history (2)

Never, ever, did I think I'd read that kind of thought on DU. But here we are.

Ours is a nation of laws.

When we cease to be a nation of laws, we will cease to be a nation of any standing. We will have turned into a third-world hellhole, a Mad Maxian dystopia. The gun nuts will have been right - their home weapons depots will have been good investments.

Whether it's cops killing people "they just know" deserve it, or presidents droning Americans "he just knows" are guilty, or civilians shooting people walking their neighborhood that "they just know" are robbing houses, it's all wrong.

We have laws, and we have courts. And that's how we have civilization.

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst."
- Aristotle

We can all do better.

Edit to clarify: I don't know enough about the situation to pass judgement on whether the police actions were warranted or lawful. What I'm addressing here are those who say that even if it was vigilante justice, it was OK. That's not OK.

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Reply If the cops performed vigilante justice on Dorner, so what? He had it coming. (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 OP
Th1onein Feb 2013 #1
nineteen50 Feb 2013 #213
Mnemosyne Feb 2013 #2
AtheistCrusader Feb 2013 #147
Mnemosyne Feb 2013 #168
kooljerk666 Feb 2013 #187
riderinthestorm Feb 2013 #3
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magical thyme Feb 2013 #123
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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:55 PM

1. Absolutely, MannyGoldstein!

Abso-fucking-lutely!

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Response to Th1onein (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:12 PM

213. I thought we were

a country of laws based on clear thinking not emotions. Fire ready aim what have we become.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:55 PM

2. Manny, your subject had me wondering if you needed spanked,



We can always do better.

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Response to Mnemosyne (Reply #2)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:14 AM

147. I came stomping in here on blood pressure overdrive

Bait: taken

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #147)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:34 PM

168. He is good!

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Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #147)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:37 PM

187. Me too,.............

 

1/2 thru the "headline" my blood pressure doubled & I started to sweat.

Then I saw the author & knew it would be a good one.

And it is!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:55 PM

3. K&R. I wish I had some pithy comment but I am shocked into silence. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:56 PM

4. Yep.

I understand the rage from the cops. But, their job is to enforce laws, not decide guilt.

This was wrong.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:56 PM

5. Spot on, Manny

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:57 PM

6. Sad to say I have seen a few DUers with this attitude.

I think everyone involved got what they wanted. Dorner wanted to go out in a blaze of gory and he got that. The PDs wanted him dead and he is dead. I think they were all wrong. But, we don't want our PDs to be wrong like this, it will lead to some very very bad things, things worse than a murderer getting his death wish.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:27 AM

107. You missed a few who got what they wanted...

 

It wasn't just Dorner and the Police who got what they wanted.

The Corporate Media got what it wanted.
A juicy story including murder and betrayal with a fiery execution at the end.
Man, that sells a lot of advertising!
The blood-lusters got what they wanted.
A juicy story including murder and betrayal with a fiery execution at the end.
And all that delicious fear when the guy was on the loose!
The oligarchs love that shit, keeps us proles on our toes, more susceptible to the advertisements and more willing to accept a summary execution if he really is obviously a bad guy.

I would wager that these factors were just as important to the way this played out as whatever Dorner and the cops wanted.

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Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #107)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:31 AM

109. You could say that DU got what it wanted, too.

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Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #107)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:29 AM

120. Thank you RevStPat. . . n/t

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Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #107)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:30 PM

167. Spot on.

There was a reason for the bloody games in Roman society.

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Response to RevStPatrick (Reply #107)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:05 PM

227. Good point.

It's funny I rarely think about what the media wants. I am quite certain a script is already in the works though.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #6)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:31 AM

123. WTF? There are 10+ people who absolutely did NOT get what they wanted

Let us not forget the 4 murdered, innocent victims of Dorner, and their families, and the shot deputy and murdered deputy. By the time the police were after Dorner, he was an admitted murderer who was well armed and a trained killer.

Let us not forget 2 hostage victims who had to be terrified, and 1 carjacking victim who also was terrified. They lost property and the peace of mind that comes with some semblance of safety in going about your daily life.

Let us not forget the 3 innocent victims of the LA police, who at least lived to tell their stories. The stupid cops that shot at them are most likely to blame for the final ending to this tragedy.

I am very sad for Dorner's sorry ending to his life. His downfall probably started with untreated PTSD from his war service, and that is shameful. But once he started down the path to revenge, he was doomed.

By the time the police were trying to arrest Dorner, he was an admitted murderer who was both well armed and a trained killer.

That said, I'm sorry for Dorner's ending, but the police that cornered him knew he was well armed and trained in how they operate, as well as trained in military operations.

I'm just relieved there weren't any innocent people trapped in that cabin with him.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #123)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:48 AM

143. Chris Dorner was a close friend of someone I know

They were friends in college and they joined the military together. Chris had some major psychological issues because he was apparently severely abused (physical, sexual and emotional) when he was growing up. Chris evolved into a sociopath and a murderer but he still had some humanity even toward the end when he avoided hurting innocent people. Tears were shed in my home for the Chris Dorner who had visited many years ago and was described as a polite and well-mannered young man.

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Response to Stainless (Reply #143)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:06 AM

145. He murdered innocent peopel who were not LA PD!

He couldn't even succeed at his threatened course of action of war against LAPD.

He murdered deputy sheriffs in another county...The guy obviously had problems.
he also, it seems from his manifesto had perfectly good explanations how EVERYTHING that went wrong in his life was someone else's fault and he held none of the blame. the perfect victim.


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Response to rustydog (Reply #145)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:59 AM

161. A bit of advice, dog

You need to practise your Critical Thinking skills before jumping into a discussion thread with such a foolish rebuttal.
There's no doubt whatsoever that Dorner was very successful at carrying out the course of action outlined in his manifesto. He had the entire LAPD in panic mode for more than a week. Not bad for an army of one. Yes, he shot at non-LAPD law enforcement officers who were also gunning for him. WTF would you have done? The rest of your rant basically says the same thing that I said about how Chris became a killer; the abuse he suffered as a child served to reinforce his lifelong feelings of victimhood. Chris had some very serious mental issues that manifested themselves long before he became a police officer. You and others may not like it but Chris was once a fine young man who merely needed an intervention.

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Response to Stainless (Reply #161)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:04 PM

162. The first two people he killed were not with the LAPD.

The woman was the daughter of his attorney. How fucked up is that? How can even childhood abuse 'excuse' that kind of monstrous behavior?

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Response to randome (Reply #162)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:14 PM

163. You are misinformed

Monica Quan was the daughter of an LAPD Officer who Chris saw as his enemy. There is no excuse for what he did. It is what it is. But there is also no excuse for the abuse and rascism that Chris endured all his life. Just sayin.

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Response to Stainless (Reply #161)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:26 PM

176. People that merely need an intervention don't kill innocent people

I do feel sympathy for Dorner - to the point where he deciced that ending the life of an innocent person was ok.



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Response to Stainless (Reply #161)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:44 PM

226. WTF would I have done?????

How about surrender??

Fine young man my ass. Yours has to be the dumbest post I have EVER seen on this subject. My god. YOUR critical thinking skills are sorely lacking.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #226)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 11:18 AM

231. You need to get a grip

Before Chris Dorner became a murderer, he was a slowly ticking time bomb waiting to explode. Chris was a reflection of the rascism, bigotry and abuse he suffered for most of his life. Your inability to recognize this speaks volumes about your (lack of) character and the type of person you are.

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Response to Stainless (Reply #143)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:16 AM

148. I am very, very sad for *everybody* hurt by this tragedy

Murderers aren't born; they're made.

He doesn't strike me as a sociopath, due to his releasing the hostages and the carjacking victim. Just very, very mentally and/or emotionally ill as a result of his life experiences.

I grew up in an abusive household as well, and am estranged from my entire family as a result. I have a first hand understanding of some of the psychological issues. And I know first hand that the path to reasonable mental and emotional health and the ability to function in society in a positive way is fraught with challenges and roadblocks. Also I know first hand that everyday life is full of 'triggers' that re-awaken the abuse memories.

Since he grew up abused, being forced by circumstances to live with his family meant he was facing those triggers every waking and sleeping hour. That, in itself, is a recipe for disaster. I know I could not have done that and survived. In fact, I was about his age when I was finally able to cut my family out of my life altogether.

(Personally, I am grateful for the positive influences and experiences in my life that helped me stay out of trouble. After much therapy by 2 social workers while I was in my 20s, and many, many, many hours of putting the tools they gave me to work on my traumatic memories, plus hours and hours of meditation work, they are now just fading memories as opposed to ongoing experiences with all the rage and pain they once inspired. And I can turn them on and off at will. I still suffer, but I understand the root of my suffering and consciously choose a path that will diminish my negative experiences.)

While I do blame the police officers who shot at the women delivering mail and the surfer, I simply can't blame the LE for their choices at the end.

Once he was surrounded in the cabin, they were very limited at that point in what they could do.

They could lay siege and hope he would get hungry enough to surrender and hope that he didn't find a way to escape again while they waited.

Or they could try to force him out, which is what they chose.

I don't know what other options they had. He already had chosen to die.

It is very easy for people here to sit safe in their homes or offices and second guess. They were not on the scene. They weren't facing his weapons and his rage. They wouldn't be taking the heat if he escaped and killed anybody else.

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Response to magical thyme (Reply #148)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:18 PM

164. Thank you for your compassion

You obviously understand more than most.

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Response to Stainless (Reply #143)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:17 PM

214. he avoided hurting innocent people???

EVERY SINGLE PERSON he shot and killed or wounded was innocent! Not one single person on this earth is deserving of being murdered however someone's deranged mind thinks of it. Dorner is dead because he completely lost any vestige of humanity he had when he made the decision to arm himself and kill people whether he believed in his deranged mind they were deserving of death or not.

Along with those tears you shed for the murderous Dorner I would certainly hope that YOU had some vestige of humanity to shed some of them for all the INNOCENT people he killed or wounded or whose property he destroyed or whom he kidnapped or terrorized and their families and loved ones. Because every single one of them is FAR more deserving of tears than Dorner.

Your post makes me sick.


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #214)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 10:32 AM

230. My Post makes you sick?

My post has nothing to do with your sickness.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:58 PM

7. Yes the cops are not above the law

If this guy Dorner, just did an expose instead of going on a rampage, maybe he could have done more for himself in the way of justice.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:59 PM

8. I know, right?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:00 AM

9. It seems to be the way of the Romans who watched the gladiators

in the coliseum and also the christians who were fed to the lions and tigers.
My history teacher in high school told the class that empires usually are in power 200-250 years. then they implode from corruption and greed. America, how old are you?

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Response to riverbendviewgal (Reply #9)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:42 PM

169. Ha!

Way back when I was young we had our 200 birthday...and that very thing was discussed then in my crowd of friends...
We could see the corruption an greed even way back then...and it has only gotten worse.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:02 AM

10. Yes, we can do better.

Always upsetting when I come to DU and find people attacking others for being TOO LEFT. Seems to be happening with greater frequency as time goes on.


For the record, I can UNDERSTAND why the police acted the way they did. They're human, and I can empathize with them. That does NOT mean they acted JUSTLY.

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Response to RedCappedBandit (Reply #10)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:22 AM

93. I can understand why many..

.... criminals do the things they do. We still believe in something called "justice" and it is vanishing in America. The cops, the courts, all dysfunctional. No more clear proof than this LA mess.

I hope some bulldog journalist gets ahold of this story because I'd bet my paycheck that most of what Dorner said was basically true.

What happened is simply what is called "blowback" in the intelligence community.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:02 AM

11. Manny chickens are coming home to roost

And while I expected to end this way, the whole thing should trouble people.

Those chicks might have been cute and fluffy once, when they first hatched. But now these little frankesteins are running around. The pecking stopped being funny a while ago.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:04 AM

12. He could have full access to the courts and full protection of the laws. He chose otherwise.

There is no "due process" when you are in a gunfight with the police, after killing 4 people. At any point in this whole week-long affair, he could gave surrendered, and then would have been entitled to every protection our system provides.

He did not. He chose to go on killing as many people as he could. He decided how this would end.

How many more of these twisted threads are you people going to start? You know, there are real issues out there that need to be addressed.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:10 AM

16. The police wanted to kill him even before the final gunfight.

That was obvious when the cops fired 40+ bullets at the women who were delivering newspapers. Those women did nothing wrong and were just delivering newspapers, yet they were targets for summary execution because the cops THOUGHT it was Dorner.

Again, those cops thought it was Dorner and they just fired away. Jury trial be damned. That was the mentality of the cops.

To me, that shows a total disregard for our laws and our court system.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #16)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:49 AM

35. That is speculation. You are just making things up, and then criticizing others

Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:25 AM - Edit history (1)

for looking at the facts differently than you do.

It doesn't make a damn bit of difference if the cops were angry. I'd be angry too if the guy took down two of my comrades.

You have nothing to gripe about. Now, if he had tried to surrender and they gunned him down, that's a whole different story. But in fact, not only did he not surrender, he intentionally set up the final scene so that it would have to end violently.

Do you think cops don't have feelings? Do you think it doesn't bother them to have to end somebody's life?

I had a friend who killed himself by driving in front of a train going 70 MPH. Everybody wanted to talk about the tragedy of the guy ending his life. Yes, that was tragic, but that is what he wanted. The real tragedy was the poor train engineer who slammed on the brakes and tried to slow the train, knowing full well that he was going to kill a man, and have to live with that vision the rest of his life.

Why don't some of you show dome human decency for the cops instead of crying over a mass murderer? The cops only did what they had to do -- what they were forced into doing. And they will have to live with it. Dorner doesn't have to live with anything. He got his wish.

Get over yourselves, people. You have your morals inside out here.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #35)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:54 AM

41. every bit as speculative as your opinion

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #35)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:58 AM

45. I'm not talking about the speculation regarding the final standoff

I'm referring to the two women who were shot at by police when they THOUGHT it was Dorner. What did those women do wrong? Were they a threat to the cops? What caused the police to shoot 40+ bullets at their vehicle in an attempt to kill? These actions tell me they did not want to take Dorner alive.

The police thought it was Dorner and they just fired away. This is where we've come to as a society. Those cops showed a total disregard for the rule of law and the court system when they shot up that vehicle.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #45)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:12 AM

102. THAT is what the criticism and concern should be focused on!

--the three people who were shot at. They are lucky and the police are lucky they and other bystanders weren't killed. If there is no adequate investigation and charges about it--then that is where to focus the outrage IMO. When they got to the last standout, there were other cooler heads in on it and more professionalism. I think they handled it much much better than the LAPD!

---------------


“I don’t want to use the word buffoonery but it really is unbridled police lawlessness,” Robert Sheahen, Perdue’s attorney, told the LA Times. “These people need training and they need restraint.”

In the case with the two women, neighbors say at least seven officers shot at the vehicle, leaving bullet holes in neighboring cars, trees, garage doors and roofs.

“How do you mistake two Hispanic women, one who is 71, for a large black male?” resident Richard Goo, 62, told the Huffington Post. He reported the entryway to his house showed five bullet holes.

“It’s 100 percent clear that they had no idea who was in that vehicle and just lit it up,” said the attorney representing the two women in an interview with Reason.com.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #45)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:30 AM

121. I agree with you on that

The mistaken identity shooting was clearly wrong and bad police work. I hope the cops involved have some consequences from that.

But I haven't seen anything yet to convince me the killing of Dorner was wrong. The fact that some cops in the line of fire shot off their mouths with some macho talk is not sufficient grounds to damn their actions.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #35)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:06 AM

90. You are right they are speculating

Because not all of the facts have come out yet. If the LAPD acted improperly I would be the first to call for action. If they had no other choice then to use lethal force, which is permitted in certain situations, then I have no problem with the way it ended.

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Response to davidpdx (Reply #90)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:55 AM

134. If they felt lethal force was their only choice, why aren't they saying so

Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:25 PM - Edit history (3)

instead of this tripe about not anticipating that seven pyrotechnic tear gas canisters could ignite a small structure. They must not have realized more than a thousand people were listening to their scanner through the Internet alone. By lying about planning "a burn," they DO look like uncvilized vigilantes -- no better than the man that they tried, convicted, and executed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014398750


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #134)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:58 PM

180. Because that is obvious to just about everybody. Obviously lethal force was necessary

Dorner wasn't leaving that building alive. He had a death wish from the start.

And why do you continue to assume he died at the hands of the police? In 90% of cases like the perp takes their own life when they run out of options. There were reports that there was a single shot BEFORE the fire engulfed the building, and there was no more activity see after that shot. The autopsy will show whether or not that is how it ended. Until then, please just drop this nonsense. You are making this whole site look foolish.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #180)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:58 PM

189. If the reports of the single shot and no further activity are true

they WHY deploy a plan to burn the place down -- and why lie about it? If they'd said something along the lines of "We decided that under the circumstances, we had no other recourse," I'd be fine with their having done "a burn."


rocktivity

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #180)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:03 PM

192. ????????????

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #134)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:02 PM

191. yep

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #134)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:51 PM

210. I doubt what the scanners picked up represents 100% of the conversation

I do agree that what they said which was taped and released was wrong. How selective is the editing of the tape? How much of the tap was actually released by whomever recorded it? What was the SOP in the situation? I still think there are more questions that need to be answered.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #35)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:00 PM

190. ??????

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:14 AM

20. There was no gun fight with the cops who insinerated him.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #20)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:16 AM

21. Yes, because they wouldn't let him have a clear shot. There is no obligation

to give him a sporting chance.
two dead cops and four innocents total were too many.

He killed those that tried to arrest him, and refused to surrender. At that point they had the right to go in with overwhelming force to neutralize the threat he continued to pose.

He did not have a due process right to be presumed harmless.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:33 AM

28. I don't know enough to judge whether the cops did the right thing - that's not my point.

My point is that it's not OK to say that cops can kill suspects when they can reasonably be taken alive. That's what some are saying on DU.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:26 AM

76. what makes you think he could have been taken alive?

I agree with your assessment that it is criminal to kill anyone who could be taken alive, or for some to say that Dorner's life didn't matter. From what we saw on television, however, it appears that he was shooting at cops all day yesterday and refused to surrender. It's difficult to know what exactly happened, but the media did clearly show gun fire being returned, back and forth. I don't think that anyone who means to surrender is going to shoot at police. I sure wouldn't. I can't think of anything more likely to bring about an end to someone's life.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #76)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:08 AM

91. Because he was obviously there and the LAPD has filled him in on the case completely

Therefore he knows everything.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:17 AM

83. Actually I think it's a shame he wasn't captured alive. We need to learn how folks such as

Dorner think. I hate to see the suicides after mass shootings too. All we really learn is speculative from pasting together of past personal history. imho

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #28)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:16 AM

103. while i often agree with you, i have a question for you(and others)

Dorner was/is a sharpshooter/sniper, now many people here on DU have said he was contained and they could just have waited him out.

So my question to you(and anybody else who thinks waiting would be a good idea) is this, Just how many sniped cops is an arrest(and trial) worth?

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Response to Bodhi BloodWave (Reply #103)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:27 AM

106. He was no better than a hunter,

he was not a sniper.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:41 AM

30. It's pretty much expected, if you kill a cop

. . . you're likely not going to live until your trial. You will die in custody with a bullet in your back, shot while trying to escape. That's a disturbing thing right there. The police should stay professional even in aftermath of a fellow officer being killed.

Dorner knew this and wasn't about to surrender. Sure enough, it looks like they probably deliberately burned the cabin down according to police audio.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/cause-cabin-fire-fuels-debate-christopher-dorner-standoff-222441723.html

"Ok, we're gonna go forward with the plan, with the burn ... like we talked about."

"Seven burners deployed and we have a fire."

"Copy. Seven burners deployed and we have a fire."


You don't have to be an apologist for Dorner to find this disturbing.

Added on edit: though I'll admit, once they had him trapped in that cabin, his fate was sealed. He wasn't going to surrender knowing that they would kill him. If police, especially the LAPD had a better reputation for cool headed professionalism, that probably wouldn't have been the outcome.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #30)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:49 AM

63. In a word....

Uncivilized.

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Response to caseymoz (Reply #30)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:24 AM

105. 'Burners' is a term for 'incendiary teargas canisters'.

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Response to randome (Reply #105)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 02:24 AM

228. I got that.


And burner is a synonym for incendiary. Those things are supposed to start fires as well as generate tear gas. You use them when you want the siege to end and you don't care about the outcome.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:17 AM

55. The cops put 30 bullet holes in that newspaper truck

They didn't give those women full access to the courts. They were offered no chance to surrender.

What makes you think they'd treat Dorner any better?

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:41 AM

78. That doesn't mean you need to cheer vigilantism

I think that's the part sticking in Manny's craw, as it sticks in mine; and given he and I rarely have anything to agree about, I think that means something.

Dorner died in a standoff with police. Yes, that happens. But there's no fucking excuse to cheer it, or to wish for more of the same, or do that Republican fucking "lol rofl saves me money this way" shit.

I think that DU's apparent comfort with the idea of extrajudicial killing is very much a "real issue"

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:07 AM

79. He killed one that day, and wounded another, and was firing at the police right up until the end.

I agree with your take. He chose his path and he was unlikely to stop until he fired his last bullet--and who knows how many of those he had on him?

I'm sure the police would have preferred to not have to lose a comrade and see another wounded that day; it would have been simpler for everyone if the guy had just surrendered. But he had issues and no intention of giving up.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:51 AM

82. Who are the "you people" that you accuse of starting twisted threads.

We have a right to expect that the police are held to the same standards as the people they are paid to protect. The idea that it is understandable that they would act otherwise because the victims were police officers is wrong should not be tolerated.

There has been a dramatic rise in the documented cases of police brutality, thanks to the use of cell phone cameras. We know that there have been several instances in southern California where innocent people have been beaten to death by the police for the crime of being homeless and mentally ill, so it is not such a stretch to imagine that there might be some cops who think that they have the right to act as judge and jury in this case. Anyone who has been the victim of police misconduct would certainly think that these issues are very real for them.



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Response to pennylane100 (Reply #82)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:09 AM

101. Bull!

We have a right to expect that the police are held to the same standards as the people they are paid to protect.


I can remember when police were held to a higher standard that those they protected. They considered themselves servants and were proud of it. They now consider the rest of us to be below them.

We need to get back to holding them to a higher standard even by enacting laws to do so, if they can't hack it, then replace them. If they want to be considered professionals, let them act like it.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:20 AM

151. Yes.

There were plenty of cameras and witnesses. He could have put down his weapons and walked out with his hands in the air.

If they had gunned him down while he was surrendering,it would have been documented and he would have died accomplishing exactly what he wanted with his death.

The problem for Dorner was that they might not have killed him and that wasn't what he wanted.

From the cops point of view, they needed to keep a very competent marksman with good cover and a lot of ammunition surrounded while he tried to pick them off. The situation was not tolerable and needed to be brought to a close before more people got shot.

They did exactly what they needed to do in order to force Dorner's hand. He chose certain death instead of the uncertainty of surrender.

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Response to BlueStreak (Reply #12)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:33 PM

196. +1

I am getting sick of the dishonesty on this subject. It is not vigilante justice when someone holes themselves up somewhere, armed, intending suicide by cop. This is just plain dishonest arguing. It's quite clear, too. This is something that can happen and does. It's pure hatred of cops, thinking they should get killed trying to bring a guy like this in. They can't. He doesn't want a trial and if he did, all he had to do was turn himself in.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:07 AM

13. I've participated on DU for many years. I'm sorry to say that it appears to me that the posts on

DU have become less reasonable, just as the political environment in America has done. Somehow, Republican thinking seems to have contaminated our abilities to think objectively.

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Response to ladjf (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:55 AM

42. that's what happens when you have a big tent..

sometimes vermin get under the flaps. look for this post to be deleted.

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Response to ladjf (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:29 PM

178. Agree

Evidenced by the fact that most Americans NOW support drone strikes. But, when Bush was doing it - it was murder. My, we've come a long way, baby. In the wrong direction.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:08 AM

14. This is real life, not Dirty Harry, vigilantism by cops is criminal and a cancer to the rule of law.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #14)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:51 AM

64. hear, hear!

nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:09 AM

15. Stop it, Manny

You make too much sense.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:11 AM

17. Amazing that people think that Dorner had a due process right to kill cops

who tried to arrest him without them trying to kill him.

Lots of ignorance on the constitution.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:55 AM

43. Gee I Have Read This Entire Thread

NOBODY said Dorner had a due process right to kill cops. Why are YOU saying this? And exactly how does the constitution figure in this?

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #43)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:59 AM

48. "How does the constitution figure in this?"

It doesn't if one resists arrest with a firearm. If a person makes themselves enough of a threat to public safety or to LEOs, then they can be shot.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:16 AM

71. Well, well, well! "due process right to kill cops" huh?


What nasty things I believe. I had no idea.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #71)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:21 AM

74. Well, he shot at them who they tried to arrest him, and when they used similar levels

of force against him, all of a sudden he's the poor widdle victim of the mean old cops he was trying to kill.

If you are resisting arrest with a fire arm there is no due process right to,protect you from the return fire.

It's nothing but raw cop hatred.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #74)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:01 AM

136. So you make shit up, then bellow about a constitution you know nothing about

Real impressed.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #136)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:02 AM

137. Where did you take Constitutional law?

P.S. Constitutionally, if he was fleeing into the woods with his back turned to them, the cops had th legal right to shoot him in the back. SCOTUS has made that clear in past decisions.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:01 PM

181. Straw man much?

That's a pretty big straw man you got yourself there.

Show me ONE post where someone on DU suggested that Dorner had a "due process right to kill cops".

I'll be waiting...

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #181)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:09 PM

183. Show me one where someone alleges with specificity what due process right

of his was violated and how it was violated.

Beyond the fact that police killed him. Police are allowed to kill dangerous and armed suspects who refuse to surrender. They're even allowed to shoot them in the back.

So, show me one person who makes a credible and intelligent claim that his due process rights were violated.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #183)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:19 PM

184. You go first.

You made the claim that some people think Dorner has a "due process right to kill cops".

Can you back that up?

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #184)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:20 PM

186. They're alleging he was deprived of his due process rights.

The only thing he was deprived of was the opportunity to kill more cops.

In effect, anyone arguing that the cops didn't have the right to use lethal force against him--those calling them vigilantes, murderers, lynch mobs, etc--are arguing that he had the right to kill police without them responding with similar force, which was the only way to stop him.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:12 AM

18. We are nation of 2 laws: one for the upper class and one for the rest of us.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:13 AM

19. "Never, ever, did I think I'd read that kind of thought on DU."


Have you read any of the posts justifying drone assassinations on DU?

There's plenty of thought that seemingly forgets what "We are a nation of laws" actually means.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:17 AM

22. It's hard to figure us out.

Cops have the authority and the right to take out the bad guys. Some of us are okay with that. The legal system is okay with that. But when a father kills a drunk driver who just murdered his two kids, he faces the courts and probably jail time. Would it have been okay if the dad had been a cop, I wonder?

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Response to LiberalAndProud (Reply #22)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:28 AM

25. Good luck indicting a cop in Texas

All he has to do is say a few magic words, like:

"I saw the suspect REACH FOR THE WAISTBAND"

"I felt threatened and had to fire my weapon when he MADE A SUDDEN MOTION"

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:19 AM

23. He had it coming, fuck due process!!! Jury of peers is so vastly overated!!! Who needs "ejudication"

anyway???????????

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:20 AM

24. One more time: Timothy Dale Johnson

On August 13, 2008, an asshole walked into the headquarters of the Democratic Party of Arkansas and shot and killed the head of the state party, Bill Gwatney, in cold blood. That asshole was identified as Timothy Dale Johnson. He was spotted by police and led them on a 30 mile chase. Finally, according to the police, they forced Johnson's car from the road and when he refused to surrender, they shot and killed him. They shot him six times. He never fired a round. In fact, his rifle was still in its case. The police claimed that he had grabbed it and was trying to open it and that's when they opened fire.

I may be wrong, but I don't recall anyone here calling that an execution. I don't recall anyone here questioning the cops version of events. And you know what? I'm perfectly good with that. I don't know whether the police version is accurate or not, but I don't shed a tear for Timothy Dale Johnson. He could've surrendered but he fled. He was armed and dangerous. I don't think the police are obligated to put themselves at extreme risk in that situation. No, he didn't get a trial which, according to some posts I've seen over the past couple of days, means that police were judge, jury and executioner. Well, that's the way it works in situations like this. If you want to decry the cops' decision in that case, go ahead. I don't.

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Response to onenote (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:51 AM

38. That's quite a view of the law you have.

When someone doesn't surrender, fair game to kill them. Armed, unarmed, whatever. They had their chance, right? Light em up.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #38)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:58 AM

46. in this case

 

armed, firing on police, and just killed one and wounded another

i think that goes far beyond justifiable police action

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #38)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:19 AM

150. The law doesn't prevent the police from using lethal force.

So its not just my view of the law.

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Response to onenote (Reply #150)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:23 PM

166. It isn't the same as saying, 'whenever however you feel like it - kill someone." Argue 2nd Amendment

however you'd like, But due process, jury of peers, legal representation, bans on cruel or unusual punishment are pretty specific. Do you also like being represented in the people's justice by convicts in prison who kill other despicable humans you don't like? Its two sides of the same crime. I mean coin.

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Response to onenote (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:54 AM

65. I'll call it an execution.

Is that better?

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Response to onenote (Reply #24)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:41 AM

142. The hypocrisy on this web site runs deep.

 

The right or wrongness depends on the (D) or (R) of those involved.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:29 AM

26. I certainly agree with you Manny.

Additionally, I would have liked to have heard what he had to say. IMHO, they were in an awful hurry to shut him up. No doubt at all, he would have received the death penalty, but we might have learned something valuable. He certainly was in need of some medical intervention. I also think they endangered people unnecessarily, as in actually shooting two women. I believe they are ok, but don't believe we've heard the last of this.

I read here that someone was saying that the body in the basement was a woman. Is there any more information about that?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:30 AM

27. War Droney

Money Debt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:39 AM

29. Too many people think "Justice" = "Revenge".

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:43 AM

31. The cops, by definition, could not perform "vigilante justice."

They are entrusted to effect arrests when they have a warrant or probable cause. If you think they didn't have probable cause when that motherfucker was filling cops full of lead, then you are a goddamned idiot. No other way to say it.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #31)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:48 AM

34. And did they..."effect an arrest"?

Nope. They went outside their role as law enforcers, and became vigilantes.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #34)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:50 AM

37. "Pretty please, Mr. Victim of Society, will you please let me cuff you?"


Try to get this: HE SHOT TWO COPS NOT A COUPLE OF HOURS BEFORE. He didn't ALLOW himself to be taken any other way.

Seriously - this Dorner thing has highlighted a lot of mental health issues...his, and those of a lot of people on DU.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #37)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:00 AM

66. Are COPS citizens?

Are they citizens of the United States? Or are they "super" citizens? Citizens with extra rights that supersede the bill of rights and the constitution?

You last sentence sounds like projection to me.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #34)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:59 AM

47. um

 

most probably dorner died by his own hand.

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Response to Union Scribe (Reply #34)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:02 AM

59. They weren't allowed to use lethal force against a gunman who

shot those trying to arrest him?
That's not rational.

DU is deeply stupid sometimes.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #31)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:03 AM

50. I think you know better than that.

Police and other authority figures have frequently been caught engaging in vigilante justice. This is exactly why there's a Bill of Rights. This is not to say this particular case was murder under the color of authority. We just don't know all the facts. But even a cursory reading of the history of law enforcement, from the Haymarket Riot to Kent State to the Pullman Strike to the Boston Massacre to the Rodney King beating to Stonewall to dozens of causes from the Civil Rights Movement will tell you men with guns trusted with power and authority can maliciously overstep the line.

This is why we have restrictions, engagement policies, review boards, and accountability. No American is ever "a goddamned idiot" for questioning the authority, propriety, or actions of the police under a situation like this. We don't just have a right to question the police for how they handled a case that ended so violently, we have an obligation to the rule of law to do so.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #31)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:20 PM

185. +1

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:44 AM

32. Repace "Dorner" with "Dykes," and you'd get run off DU.

Where were you with this a week ago?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:47 AM

33. K&R!

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:49 AM

36. what law did the cops break? n/t

 

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Response to bigapple1963 (Reply #36)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:53 AM

40. Quite a few, judging by the manifesto.

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Response to Bucky (Reply #40)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:05 AM

68. Quite a few without any manifesto...

Now it's pretty much general knowledge. Do you think there are those who may want to become "super" citizens who are above the bill of rights and would use the same tactics as LAPD in other circumstances? It seems the way of things now. Incivility, the new normal.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:53 AM

39. I'm going to surround your horse with pillows

You know, just in case you fall off. It's quite a long drop and it worries me when you climb all the way up there.

I know it's irrational on my part, but you know how emotional people like us can get sometimes...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:56 AM

44. That's a big "if" - and one that doesn't apply in this case -

- as police officers cannot be vigilantes since they are enforcers of the law.

The only one acting outside the law was Dorner. Four murders, two stolen vehicles, two people kidnapped - a pretty impressive array of violations. The only reason he'll not see his day in court is because he refused to turn himself in and continued to run from, shoot at, and lob smoke bombs at the police.

All Dorner's choice. He ended it the way he wanted. No vigilante justice there.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:00 AM

49. It's called "due process"

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:05 AM

51. DURec

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:11 AM

52. Well said Manny. I think the DEmocratic Party has been tainted by all the Republicans

escaping from the failing republican party. We dont need them, we dont want them. Send them back plez.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #52)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:31 PM

195. And the Democratic Party keeps up a steady march to the Conservative Right...

...so that Conservatives and Reagan Democrats feel comfortable and welcomed in their New "Centrist" party.


Lawrence O'Donnell actually did an editorial on this.
He called it Brilliant Political Strategy.

According to O'Donnell, moving to The Right by adopting former Republican Policies,
Obama left the Republican Party nowhere to go except to the fringe Tea Party edge.
O'Donnell called this "brilliant" politics.

O"Donnell failed to look at the results of the brilliant political strategy:
300 Million Americans ,
even those who voted for The Democrats,
will be forced to live with Republican Policy.

For some, it IS all just a game.


"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone


photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed






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Response to bvar22 (Reply #195)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:01 PM

200. I agree with Mr. ODonnell that it was a brilliant strategy by the Pres to win in 2012.

In fact I was saying the same thing in a response to you in 2011.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=54267

and maybe said it better here in early 2012: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=118604

Every right of center vote that the Pres picked up was worth double because it is a vote that the republican didnt get. The same isnt true for picking up left wing votes. And a bonus, he still got probably 85% of the left wing votes. They had nowhere to turn. Brilliant strategy for the President.

The left has been screwed. There is some hope. Not from the new conservative Democratic Party, but from organizations like moveon, the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, DFA, etc. working outside the party to help elect progressives that the party has abandoned in favor of Blue Damn Dogs.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:15 AM

53. RedStaters and Freepers post here. Might help explain some of it.

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Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #53)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:04 AM

60. No, but we do have Dorner supporters. I can name at least two active ones.

Those who disagree with this silliness of his rights bring violated are known as "people who understand the law."

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #60)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:02 AM

67. Name those "Supporters" geek

Please go ahead and call out Dorner supporters. Make sure you provide proof where they supported Dorner, you know with links. PLEASE.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #67)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:13 AM

69. Heaven05 for one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014398669#post5


unlike you we have sympathy for someone who had character and integrity who tried to expose corruption and racism in the LAPD and died for it. "What's become of us?" How disgusting and soulless. It was a modern day lynching all the way from the BOR to today. "Become of us?" Nothing, America has always been racist and destructive especially to the integrity and honesty which was shown by Officer Dorner in the initiating incident to this tragic affair and where did it get him? A modern day lynching. I listened to those murderers laughing and joking while attending to their lynching. It reminded me of something told me by a family member years ago. She heard the screams of the young black man accused of 'eyeballing' a white woman as they castrated him before lynching him, and the laughing and joking of the white people, men and women, who were cutting off this kids private member. And you know what, I don't care if this is too harsh for some of the gentile sensibilities of someone like you. Stand in crowd as the 'bitter fruit' of Officer Dorner swings in the trees, I'm sure you would enjoy the show. That goes for you too 'Senator'.Sobchak. I can't wait for the Trayvon Martin trial.


Ancianita for another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=398727

I believe him when he says that he was ruined and cast out by an evil, untrustworthy system, and he then chose to fight it on his own terms. When state corruption and militarized disorder are the standards, retributive justice gets labeled terrorism and subversive.

The more state security forces hurt us, the more fighters will emerge. Don't act like dazed Stockholm Syndrome hostages full of self righteous anger toward these individuals.


We have the leftwing version of Operation Rescue here. Only more loathsome.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #69)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:37 AM

77. Thanks I'm Saving This Information

Heaven05 for one:







Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:24 AM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014398669#post5



unlike you we have sympathy for someone who had character and integrity who tried to expose corruption and racism in the LAPD and died for it. "What's become of us?" How disgusting and soulless. It was a modern day lynching all the way from the BOR to today. "Become of us?" Nothing, America has always been racist and destructive especially to the integrity and honesty which was shown by Officer Dorner in the initiating incident to this tragic affair and where did it get him? A modern day lynching. I listened to those murderers laughing and joking while attending to their lynching. It reminded me of something told me by a family member years ago. She heard the screams of the young black man accused of 'eyeballing' a white woman as they castrated him before lynching him, and the laughing and joking of the white people, men and women, who were cutting off this kids private member. And you know what, I don't care if this is too harsh for some of the gentile sensibilities of someone like you. Stand in crowd as the 'bitter fruit' of Officer Dorner swings in the trees, I'm sure you would enjoy the show. That goes for you too 'Senator'.Sobchak. I can't wait for the Trayvon Martin trial.


Ancianita for another


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=398727

I believe him when he says that he was ruined and cast out by an evil, untrustworthy system, and he then chose to fight it on his own terms. When state corruption and militarized disorder are the standards, retributive justice gets labeled terrorism and subversive.

The more state security forces hurt us, the more fighters will emerge. Don't act like dazed Stockholm Syndrome hostages full of self righteous anger toward these individuals.



We have the leftwing version of Operation Rescue here. Only more loathsome.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #60)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:48 AM

87. Last night you had 6 on your LIST

What happened to the other 4??

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Response to blkmusclmachine (Reply #53)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:16 AM

115. RedStaters and Freepers post here.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:16 AM

54. You can't get him in a court of law if he will die before being captured.

 

I don't think it is realistic to think it would have turned out otherwise.

Obviously it was a tragedy and everyone wishes he had turned himself in. But he ran the show and I bet we will find he killed himself.

Sad.

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Response to dkf (Reply #54)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:50 AM

112. And if he had been

taken alive when thete was press or other witnesses around, he would have 'tried to escape' or had a 'tragic accident' once they weren't around. He knee that, having been a cop. Wonder why he didn't give himself up at the first chance...?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:46 AM

56. They had him cornered... they were not about to wait for nightfall, and him to escape. that was

one of their problems. They needed to flush him out. Dorner knew that the end was coming, so he killed himself.

There is too much melodrama in this story. Dorner threatened the families of LAPD members, and he even killed one of them. He was a menace to society.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:48 AM

57. I've been thinking about this quite a bit...

And all I can glean from these events and its many discussions is sadness. Wrong is wrong and whichever side of the law one is on, good guy or bad guy, murder is murder. I must be getting old. Or it must be the booze.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:58 AM

58. Well said Manny.

They had him surrounded, contained, and they had the resources to keep him that way, if reporting and scanner traffic were accurate.


That completely demolishes any notion that burning the cabin was justified, imo.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:11 AM

61. Nauseating, isn't it? I'm going back and forth with one claiming "burners" is slang for teargas.

Problem is, he/she claims it's "an internal thing" that they learned through "experience" but I can find zero zilch nada references to it outside of this incident. None, whatsoever. I AM trying to give them the benefit of the doubt in finding corroborating evidence for their claim. All I can find is that "burners" are a class of military-grade grenades that are separate from teargas in that they are used to... well... burn things. There's a type of teargas that can ignite fires. Evidence is mounting that the police used this weapon SPECIFICALLY to burn the cabin down with Dorner in it, but burners are by all I can find a completely different class of weapon. Either they used this particular type of teargas, or they used a "burner" which they kept saying in the audio recordings. Either way, they wanted that cabin to burn with Dorner in it and they chose a weapon to do just that.

But because he killed people he needed... nay, DESERVED... to be burned alive. Though, again from the recordings, he may have actually shot and killed himself before the burn began. I'm beginning to suspect the "shootout" was after the burn was eating through the cabin and setting off the ammo in it, hitting officers indiscriminately.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:25 AM

62. Lots of unanswered questions here. How

did his wallet and driver's license conveniently survive the fire that incinerated him? Was it just sloppy journalism or part of Dorner's plan that two other wallets of his were reported to have been found in San Diego in two separate locations last weekend?

I'm not one to buy into tin foil hat stuff, but I find these details curious. And, for the record, the man deserved due process, as does anyone charged with a crime.

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Response to LibDemAlways (Reply #62)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:14 AM

70. Curious isn't it?

Sociopaths abound among those dancing around the bonfire of revenge.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:18 AM

72. Manny, thank you very much

You've put so eloquently what I've been struggling to say.

I have zero sympathy for Dorner, but I do pity him that he could justify the murderous path he chose to take. That isn't the sort of person who should be wearing a uniform of any sort.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:20 AM

73. True, but it would have been so much better if they had tortured him mercilessly

before they murdered him.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #73)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:25 AM

75. Do any of you people understand the definition of murder?

Cops had an obligation to stop this guy. He gave them no choice but to use force against him.

Ghastly sympathy for the villain against the people risking their lives to stop him.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:29 AM

80. the Vigilante was Dorner, who killed in cold blood, just like Zimmerman killed in cold blood

 

Zimmy and Dorner had a lot in common.
Both went looking for blood and got it.
Zimmy of course wanted to remain around and watch those that took his side fawn over him,and spit on the rest who took him for what he was, a cold blooded asssassin.

So it is quite a stretch in the title to slant it that way, though of course that is what a good headline writer does on all issues.
Because subliminally, most people read what they want to read and disregard the rest, so the key words come through.

And I love writing good headlines myself.

but make no mistake, the cops did not perform vigilante justice on Dorner.
Dorner brought the entire thing on himself, in his terroristic ways.

He is most certainly, at no time, a hero.

and you just gave me an idea for another thread.

Thanks Manny! It's a great headline albeit I disagree with it, but its still a great headline.

my alltime favorite headline was the classic NY post headline
"Headless body found in topless bar"

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #80)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:45 AM

81. yeah, he does kind of remind me of Zimmerman

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:43 AM

84. This thread is such a depressing representation of what went wrong.

 

We've become mean, as in offensive, selfish, unaccommodating, nasty, malicious, small-minded, penurious, stingy, parsimonious, and illiberal.

We have hard-nosed, authoritarian people that genuinely think of themselves as liberal without any consideration of what that even means.

We don't deal with problems anymore because that is hard and frequently involves inconvenience and sacrifice, we simply seek to eliminate the symptoms, especially when the symptoms are people.

Nobody here is calling this man a hero and nobody believes his actions were justified, yet there are accusations of just that repeated all over this board.

"Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity."

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #84)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:35 PM

197. you

are right. When you have people like Geek thegeek twisting words out of context to fit their perverted rationalizations, I quit. Yes I see Dorner as a very tragic individual who, I feel, was driven,along with his personal demons over the edge. He was executed, my take. The very mean words and accusations I've seen written from a lot of people on this site is amazing. We are, with some exceptions, very mean and vicious on this site. I won't be back for a while, not while you have people like geek the geek and others. Manny I have not agreed with you a lot, whether verbalized or not, but this one, you nailed. Good one. Hopefully when I return I won't have to read responses that were rejected by the jury put forth in a twisted and perverted way by people with a devious and twisted racist agenda. People like geek should be banned. You banned others for less. Salmonchanted, I'm going to miss you. But it's just too much to deal with the likes of dorner burner, geek.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #197)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:46 PM

223. Good luck to you. The attackers here will not prevail.




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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:01 AM

85. If you square up with law enforcement officers using a lethal weapon

you will very likely die in the exchange. There is no place in this country where this is not true. There is nothing new about this. Police kill people under these circumstances very frequently, if not daily somewhere in the US.

None of it is pretty. This just seems worse because people were paying attention.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:27 AM

86. "We will have turned into a third-world hellhole, a Mad Maxian dystopia"

 

Dramatic much?

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Response to michigandem58 (Reply #86)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:25 AM

96. Yes.

It's all over, don't you know? 'They' won and 'we' lost. Just crawl back into bed, pull the covers over your head and repeat, "All is lost. All is lost. All is lost."

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:56 AM

88. Is anybody going to investigate if Dorner's beef with the cops had any merit?

Or do we just dismiss him as a lethal crackpot? (I don't wanna waste my own time looking into it. There's something good on TV.)

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Response to tclambert (Reply #88)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:33 AM

99. You mean the allegations he waited 2 weeks to make?

The allegations he made the day AFTER his partner asked for him to be reassigned, thereby ruining his career?

There WAS an investigation about the allegations of brutality. But it's clear as day the allegations were made in retaliation to his partner's desire to be rid of him.

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Response to randome (Reply #99)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:22 PM

165. maybe he spent two weeks talking with his superior (not partner) about what happened and why.

Most people try to talk about differences before taking action. nothing is clear as day.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #165)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:48 PM

224. Abolutely right.

 

"I later went to a Board of Rights (department hearing for decision of continued employment) from 10/08 to 1/09. During this BOR hearing a video was played for the BOR panel where Christopher Gettler stated that he was indeed kicked by Officer Evans (video sent to multiple news agencies). In addition to Christopher Gettler stating he was kicked, his father Richard Gettler, also stated that his son had stated he was kicked by an officer when he was arrested after being released from custody.
...
"Journalist, I want you to investigate ...
...
"What they failed to mention in the BOR was Teresa Evans own use of force history during her career on the LAPD. She has admitted that she has a lengthy use of force record and has been flagged several times by risk management. She has a very well known nickname, Chupacabra, which she was very proud to flaunt around the division.

She found it very funny and entertaining to draw blood from suspects and arrestees. At one point she even intentionally ripped the flesh off the arm of a woman we had arrested for battery (sprayed her neighbor with a garden water hose). Knowing the woman had thin elastic skin, she performed (an) Indian burn to the woman’s arm after cuffing her. That woman was in her mid-70’s, a mother and grandmother, and was angry at her tenants who failed to pay rent on time. Something I can completely understand and I am sure many have wanted to do toward tenants who do not pay their rent.

Teresa Evans was also demoted from a senior lead officer rank/position for performance issues. During my two months of working patrol with Teresa Evans, I found her as a woman who was very angry that she had been pulled from patrol for a short time because of a domestic violence report made by Long Beach Police Department because of an incident involving her active LAPD officer boyfriend, Dominick Fuentes, and herself. Dominick Fuentes is the same officer investigated for witness tampering. She also was visibly angry on a daily basis that she was going to have to file for bankruptcy because her ex-husband, a former LAPD officer and not Dominick Fuentes, who had left the department, state, and was nowhere to be found had left her with a tax bill and debt that she was unable to pay because of a lack of financial means."


It is more likely than not that Christopher Gettler and his father made it known that they were aware that Teresa Evans kicked Chistopher Gettler. Any complaints that they made were independent of any evaluation that Evans anticipated making. Dorner's memo (aka "manifesto") does not show incoherent ramblings as has been repeatedly said by the MSM.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:04 AM

89. They wanted to take him out.

 

He wanted to take them and their families out.

Both were wrong.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:22 AM

92. I feel your disgust....


When we give groups like cops power, there needs to be checks and balances. Same with drones, military, etc.

Can't understand why people want to allow the type of concentrated power that allows groups to be judge / jury / executioner.

Sad race to the bottom of an authority / power drunk culture.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:25 AM

95. 'There, but for the grace of God....'

 

I quite agree, Mr Goldstein. DURec.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:28 AM

97. It really didn't seem to me that he gave them a lot of choice in the matter.

No more than David Koresh at Waco or that Nazi assclown at Ruby Ridge.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:30 AM

98. You do know how many agencies were involved in this, right?

The FBI, the U.S. Marshal's Service and the San Bernadino PD. You don't think with that many LEOs involved, that the benefit of the doubt should go to them?

You do know that it's likely the teargas started the fire, right?

You do know that Dorner was a sharpshooter and killed 4 people, right?

And finally, how would YOU have gotten him out of there without risking more lives? Are you an expert in these matters?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:39 AM

100. I agree

It seems to me like they had no intention of capturing him.

But it could have been a case of suicide-by-cop as well.

I'm more disturbed by the collateral damage. Several people were shot or shot at by mistake. It's like the cops shot first and asked questions later. And this happens all the time, not just in L.A.

Police are out of control generally. Every single major police force in this country is guilty of major civil rights violations at the very least. Stop and frisk in NYC. Not to mention the fact they worked with the CIA to spy in Muslims. New Orleans is a police force well known for the corruption.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:18 AM

104. How very disappointing Manny!

I was expecting a brilliant satire about the situation, and got that.

Isn't authoritarianism the turd way?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:28 AM

108. the blood-lust is disgusting, but not surprising.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:35 AM

110. I wonder too about the people under our tent

From this to the drone debate, not that everyone has to be the same in their opinions, but the cavalierness of many attitudes. I see that attitude turned on and used against fellow DU'ers and I can only imagine how some of these peoples attitudes effect their day to day lives. It is part of a bigger problem and in my opinion it is one in which we treat each other like garbage pretty much as a standard. We have become such a mean and bitter people. I don't mean party either, I mean people as a whole. I try to watch what I say and consider my attitudes, I have shared the same attitude before and cast judgement too many times. I want to change. I hope others will arrive at that too.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:43 AM

111. It's amazing to watch...

... the lengths that the authoritarian supporters will go in their lies to justify this clear abuse of police powers.

A-FUCKING-MAZING.

Democrats, my ass.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #111)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:19 AM

118. pls

 

where's the abuse of police powers?

Are you saying that what the cops did was illegal under California or federal law?

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Response to bigapple1963 (Reply #118)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:27 AM

119. Ya mean other than ...

... shoot with intent to kill 3 people who just "happened" to be in pickup trucks?

Or take it upon themselves to become judge, jury, and executioner in summary violation of citizens rights?

Are those actions "legal" under California or federal law?

Go lick some more jackboots buddy.

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Response to 99Forever (Reply #119)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:30 AM

122. um...

 

I confused now. Are we talking about the final assault on the cabin or an incident that happened days earlier in another county over? Make up your mind.

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Response to bigapple1963 (Reply #122)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:50 AM

131. Both.

My mind is quite clear, thank you very much. Now, run along, there must be some authoritarian ass that needs kissing, somewhere.

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Response to bigapple1963 (Reply #118)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:12 PM

218. Obviously he has no idea.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:00 AM

113. What if

law enforcement had used a military flamethrower instead if incendiary tear gas bombs to burn Dorner up in that cabin? Would that be OK too? What's the difference?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:12 AM

114. Our President does this

Obama and Bush both believe in West of the Pecos justice.

Shoot a hellfire missile from a circling drone or bomb a country to avenge a father's humiliation.

Our nation's attitude is getting bad.

The last few Presidents (from both sides of the aisle) has inculcated this country with a war and fear mongering attitude that I believe will be our downfall.

I am not surprised at how the police in California dealt with this most recent situation.

I miss the days of simply uniformed police officers patrolling our communities and actually getting to know the people around them.

Our police have become a state side civilian army...

So sad.

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Response to maryland native (Reply #114)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:18 AM

117. Do you really think that there was some utopian period

where the police didn't kill armed and dangerous subjects who refused to surrender? Please, oh please, tell me when that was.

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Response to onenote (Reply #117)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:33 AM

125. Utopian Period

So I will ignore the snarky "Please, oh please..." and respond.......

Probably never been such a utopian period.

Yet, if such a period never existed, does that mean the violence we have seen is OK?

Your default position seems to be that a lack of something begets approval.

Now, I think the Utopian period you are seeking clarification about may have been closer when the heavily armed law enforcement people did not really exist. Law enforcement used to have "soft" uniforms, an accessible attitude, and a desire to help the community.

Even in those seemingly better times, we certainly had huge issues, many running deeply below the surface, such as police violence against minorities, law enforcement suppression of voting rights, etc.

That said, I am saddened that you appear to be ok with police violence simply because a utopian time span did not exist.

Perhaps I misread your comments; if so, please accept my apology

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Response to maryland native (Reply #125)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:38 AM

127. I'm happy when police "violence" is used against a violent killer

Guilty as charged.

But that's all I was saying in response to the portion of your post that seemed to suggest that at some time in the past, the situation with Dorner, would have not ended up with him being dead. Whether or not the exact tactics used would have varied is really besides the point.

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Response to onenote (Reply #127)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:46 AM

129. Plea accepted!!

Since my "You are snarky" post was actually as snarky I perceived yours to be, I will take a plea also!! Both of us sentenced to time served!

Was there ever a time when such a scenario would have ended differently?

Likely not.

Perhaps the future will get better. But as we develop new ways to deal with old threats, we seem to develop new ways to make greater threats.

I need to watch some reruns of Gunsmoke to see how Marshal Dillon handled law enforcement!! He actually got into quite a few "uses of force."

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Response to maryland native (Reply #129)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:18 AM

139. Thanks. And I do apologize for my snark as well. It was unnecessary

Thanks for seeing past it to allow us to have a civil discussion.

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Response to onenote (Reply #117)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:34 AM

126. There hasn't even been a utopian period when the police didn't kill *unarmed and non dangerous folks

Some of us would like to get a little closer to _that_ utopia, the one where cops don't shoot up trucks of the wrong color and make with passengers of the wrong sex and race.



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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #126)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:39 AM

128. No disagreement there.

But this thread is about how the police handled Dorner, not the mistakes they made before he was found.

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Response to onenote (Reply #128)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:51 AM

132. It's all part and parcel of the same mindset

The cops made it clear they were dead set to execute Dorner when they shot up those two trucks the way they did.

Dorner was clearly looking to suicide by cop and the cops did exactly as he wanted.

A long trial would just keep Dorner's "manifesto" in the public eye, something I'm pretty sure the police were not at all interested in having happen.

It was all quite predictable really once Dorner set events in motion.

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #132)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:56 AM

135. Suicide by cop

Dorner was looking for suicide by cop and the police complied.

Probably so.

The real irony is that if he had not succeeded, been arrested instead of dying, and sentenced to death, he would have still faced the same end... death from the state.

And if he faced death from the state, the prison system would have monitored him carefully up to his date with death so that he would not kill himself and cheat the hangman.

Wow, the world has turned upside down......

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #132)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:17 AM

138. You're right that it was predictable.

And, as you indicate, it seems he wasn't interested in keeping his manifesto in the public eye through a trial since he chose to make no effort to give himself up at anytime during the period he was on the run.

His decision was made before the trucks were shot up. It was made when he shot innocent people and didn't immediately give himself up.

And, as it turns out, its likely that this wasn't suicide by cop since its likely that he shot himself. It was suicide by ex-cop --something he could've done instead of killing yet another law enforcement officer when they approached the cabin.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:18 AM

116. K & R

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:33 AM

124. First they came for the communists .....

There is a slippery slope down which any civilization can slide, into the realm of legal justification for murder, simply by acting in concert as government, such that murder does not attach to an individual, rather to an arbitrary rule none dare oppose or they too will be killed.

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Response to Coyotl (Reply #124)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:54 AM

133. I'm pretty sure

 

that whatever action police took to end the siege was in accordance with California and federal law.

So I'm not sure what you mean by "legal justification for murder". It would have been legally justified if they had shot him. Which they didn't since he died by his own hands.

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/196.html


Homicide is justifiable when committed by public officers and
those acting by their command in their aid and assistance, either--
1. In obedience to any judgment of a competent Court; or,
2. When necessarily committed in overcoming actual resistance to
the execution of some legal process, or in the discharge of any other
legal duty; or,
3. When necessarily committed in retaking felons who have been
rescued or have escaped, or when necessarily committed in arresting
persons charged with felony, and who are fleeing from justice or
resisting such arrest.

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Response to bigapple1963 (Reply #133)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:08 AM

146. Manny wasn't talking about this case specifically, he was talking about the

growing attitude in the country that we abandon the rule of law and allow law enforcement to conduct vigilante justice, abandoning the rule of law in favor of making the cops judge, jury and executioners.

What this attitude shows is that America doesn't trust its own system of justice which it claims to be so proud of and instead is succumbing to emotion to deliver justice rather than depend on the rule of law.

In this case, I do not know much detail but Manny's post was not specifically about this case.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #146)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:07 PM

172. The demand for revenge is replacing the call for justice.

I cringe whenever I see victims or family members of victims speaking at sentencing. If two essentially identical murders take place, should the murderer who leaves a weeping widow behind receive a harsher sentence?

The cavalier attitude toward due process and collateral damage we are seeing in the drone debate is part of this same poisonous trend.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:49 AM

130. I am disgusted at the lack of concern for the 3 innocent people shot with hails of cop gunfire

for no reason. That should never happen. They just opened fire at the sight of a truck. Twice. At least at the cabin they had reason to think it was the shooter inside, on the other two occasions that the police opened fire they had no reason to do so, to shoot massive amounts of rounds at innocent people. The cops who shot those innocent people are all getting a paid vacation for doing so, and it seems no one is going to attempt to make sure such incompetent and bloodthirsty officers are not allowed on our streets.
It is as if the 3 innocent people shot by the cops do not even matter. Dorner was not even present. Just trigger happy officers shooting at citizens in a haphazard frenzy. The entire nation should be ashamed of those shootings.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #130)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:23 AM

140. I don't think I've seen anyone condoning those shootings

I certainly don't.
But that doesn't mean that the final outcome of this matter troubles me. Would I have preferred for it to end with Dorner giving himself up and not killing another cop? Absolutely. But he made it clear that he wasn't giving himself up and that he would not hesitate to try to kill more law enforcement officers if given the opportunity.

He died. Probably by his own hand. The fact that the building burned up doesn't change the fact that he's dead. Some believe that he was burned alive. We may never know. But if hadn't been burned alive he was going to die by some other means. He's dead. That was the decision he made.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #130)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:07 PM

194. That bothers me, too

It seems like the police had a pretty cavalier attitude about the shootings--oops, our bad, here's a new truck, that should make it all right.

I was watching the live coverage at the cabin and I was shocked when broadcasters started talking about LE shooting tear gas canisters inside. It was a heavily wooded area, looked like lots of evergreens, and I wondered if they had even considered the risk of starting a wildfire. I thought that part of the state was still in a drought.

I'm starting to wonder if LE somehow thinks the injury or death of innocents is OK, if the guy they're looking for is evil enough. It upsets me to think that LE might think it's ok to shoot me or someone I love just because we happen to be in the wrong vehicle or in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Just for the record, I think Dorner was a murderer and would never have surrendered.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:40 AM

141. How do I love thee?


I despair at the bloodlust and the piling on as well as the realization that our laws can be so casually and gleefully set aside by even the people on this site. If I ever didn't recoil at this, I wouldn't be me anymore because my soul will have already died.

If I had a heart I'd give it to you, Manny. Happy Valentine's Day, my friend.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:59 AM

144. Agreed. Vigilante justice is not OK.

Vigilante justice = a tantrum.

Tantrums are for two-year-olds.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:17 AM

149. Due process is soooo last century. n/t

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:22 AM

152. Like the Bible sez....

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out!!!

I think that's in the Universal Code of Military Justice too.

And the LAPD procedures manual.

What a fucked up country we've become.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:24 AM

153. Some DUers would even call you an Al Qaeda sympathizer

for believing in due process. It's gotten bad enough that I didn't immediately recognize your headline as satire until I saw the name below it, because some would actually post the same headline and actually mean it.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:30 AM

154. Ideally you are right.

It complicates things however if the criminal has the goal of dying.

There is something called suicide by cop. Some wackos fire at police because there goal is to at the cops hands.

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Response to iandhr (Reply #154)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:37 AM

157. The problem is with the police burning him in a trap "er, like we talked about"



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Response to jsr (Reply #157)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:47 AM

160. Maybe Dorner new thats what would happen.

and wanted it that way.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:31 AM

155. Agree 100%

 

And be prepared to start getting called all kinds of names from the reactionaries here

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:36 AM

156. I guess DU is a big old net.

A lot of from-the-hip thinkers and centerless posts. I think the whole rock-god presidency brought a lot of them on board.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:40 AM

158. We should trust the judgment of the law enforcement commanders.

 

Much as we should trust the judgment of those that would assassinate people with drones.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:41 AM

159. This is a very complicated situation, in my opinion,

and I don't think those who are "cool" with the burning are morally wrong.

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Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #159)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:54 PM

171. So The Ends Justify The Means? Just Wondering n/t

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Response to DallasNE (Reply #171)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:17 PM

174. No. I don't think that.

I don't like what the police have done. I just think that those who disagree with me have equally valid opinions.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:48 PM

170. Just Like The Jews Had It Coming 80 Years Ago

It is all part of the race to the bottom line of non-thinking. It is the Lindsey Graham scorched earth style. It is the NRA that has the principle at Sandy Hook on its enemies list.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:14 PM

173. We Have Become A

Judge Dredd society.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:25 PM

175. Thank you. n/t

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:28 PM

177. America is a violent nation

with a culture of death and revenge. Sad to say.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:39 PM

179. Good for you, Manny . . .

Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:01 PM - Edit history (1)

Good for you, Manny, you are absolutely right. No one deserves "vigilante justice," because it is not "justice" in any sense of the word. Allowing that kind of reaction to happen, even in the face of the worst crimes, runs the risk of letting the guilty go free while innocents are punished instead. Our courts make enough mistakes even when they proceed according to the law, but giving in to emotion and lynch law is far, far worse.

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #179)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:23 PM

202. Are You The Same "Another_Liberal"

That posted on Slate for a number of years before that site was shut down.

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Response to DallasNE (Reply #202)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:59 PM

211. Just the same . . .

Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:31 PM - Edit history (1)

Just the same as always.

You remember the good old days, how all of us would lay into George W. for being a war-mongering monster with the intellect of a fourteen-year-old illiterate? Sweet, sweet memories those are. (sigh)

How have you been? I guess your daughter is really growing up by now? Don't you just love that precious XL pipeline they're building across your State, right?

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Response to another_liberal (Reply #211)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:59 PM

225. Bush Truly Was The Worst President Ever

Or perhaps we should say Cheney was the worst Vice President ever as he seemed to be the one that ran the show.

My daughter is now 23. She acquired bi-polar and is having a real struggle of it. Thanks to the Affordable Care Act she is still on my insurance but even that will end in another 2 1/2 years so I'm not sure what happens then. There just is no effective treatment out there for mental health issues. None, because nobody wants to pay for it. No wonder we keep having these mass killing sprees.

The new route for the XL pipeline is no better than the old route because it follows river bottoms and a rupture runs the risk of polluting the drinking water of cities like Omaha and Kansas City. Realistically, that pipeline is going to be built because big money is behind it. It should follow ridge lines rather than river valley's because spills would do so much less damage. It should stay in Canada until it can hook up with the ridge between the Missouri and Red Rivers then swing over into Iowa and follow the ridge between the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers before crossing the Missouri River east of Kansas City. But that probably would have added 200 miles to the route so big money said screw the problems cause by leaks.

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Response to DallasNE (Reply #225)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 01:42 PM

232. I hope we never . . .

I hope we never see George W.'s like again in such a high national office. The damage he and Cheney did will live on long after they are both have gone on to face the consequences of their karma. Still, it seems the modern Republican Party is determined to find and promote people almost as dimwitted and backward. One needs only to look at the dolts and dweebs they had contending for the Party's Presidential nomination last year to realize that is true. As Grover Norquist once said: "All we want is someone who will sign his name on what we tell him to."


I am sorry to hear your daughter is struggling with such a serious condition. It is surely hard enough just to deal with being that age today, let alone to have Bi-polar disorder complicate things yet further. A person close to me had the same problem, though at the time no one called it Bi-polar, she just seemed impossible to live with most of the time. We all gradually lost patience and sort of pushed her out of our lives. Now we deal with that guilt as well as her loss. I'm glad that in your daughter's case help is at least available to her.


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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:04 PM

182. Rule of Law is the RW line, we're a union perfecting justice.

That is from our Constitution. It is when we do not stand by our Constitution, that defines us, we have no standing because there is no thing to stand.

When law fails the test of justice, it is the law that fails, and it is the justice that remains intact.

It is just to say he deserved it.
But, it is unjust to say that we think it is him so we will not bother to be certain.

If they burned that man, yea that murderer, when they did not have to do that, then we are all, as Americans, singed.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:42 PM

188. at

the very least here, you called like it really was.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #188)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:42 PM

199. It was your conversation on another thread that prompted my post

You were going back and forth with someone who thought vigilante justice was great. It was very disturbing to me that he thought that.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:06 PM

193. Rec'd

 

It says a lot about a person who supports such actions.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:38 PM

198. I applaud these remarks.

well said.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:19 PM

201. I'm not going to cry about Dorner being killed

It would have been nice if he had surrendered so that he could go through the justice system, but the simple fact is that he was such a dangerous person with a record of murder and violence that, if the police had been forced to breach the cabin with a SWAT team, I would expect them to shoot him as soon as they spotted him unless he was in the surrender position.

They're not going to take the chance if they can't see his empty, immobile hands.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:34 PM

203. Well said, Manny

I'm sure that most people have come to the conclusion that Dorner's death was pretty much inevitable and some of them would say deserved, but what I have issue with is the sheriffs getting the tacit approval of reporters to collude and lie to viewers about what they did when there is broadcasted evidence to the contrary. And once again, law enforcement in LA county has willfully sullied their reputations and cut off any kind of confidence the public may have had in them at the knees by the bald faced lie they stood up and told.

If law enforcement out there feels that being judge, jury and executioner is their right in that moment, that's one thing: but god damn! have the fucking stones to stand in that truth and take your asswhippin' for it. Don't then turn into a coward and lie about it. If right is so on your side, there is no need for fear of the truth being outted and no need to lie.

If you lied about this, then probably what set Dorner in motion is something you all lied about, too.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:41 PM

204. Thank you, Manny!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:47 PM

205. The question is whether it constituted vigalante justice.

If, for example, Dorner had attempted to exit the cabin after it had been set fire and could have surrended at that point, but the police somehow forced him back in, that would certainly be vigalante justice. And that would be wrong.

But if police simply attempted to set fire to "smoke him out" in the hopes it would precipitate a quicker surrender, I don't know--is that really viglante justice? Is it even illegal? I don't know about any state or federal laws to answer that question one way or another.

I do know that the "smoke out" has long been a law enforcement tactic in this country. Think all the way back to John Wilkes Booth.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:07 PM

206. "Hard cases make bad law"

As a society, we must agree on the general principle that those we charge with protecting us from violent criminals-- law-enforcement officers-- possess the right to use deadly force against a criminal suspect who is using deadly force to resist lawful arrest. In the instant situation, that is precisely what occurred.

We must also not conflate previous, collateral, non-criminal issues in Officer Dornan's past with what occurred yesterday.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:09 PM

207. We all reminisce about how cops "used to be" but we're stuck in that tv sitcom world.

and it's not reality. Police have enormous power and they know it. I've seen them handing out street justice since I was a city kid, and I'm white. My black friends fared much worse, and I saw it with my own eyes. This in the good old days of the early 60's in Hartford, Ct.
It is never acceptable for police to abuse their power. It is never acceptable for police to deal out justice. If this is acceptable to anyone, then you have accepted a police state. It's not just "a few bad cops" either, that's another propaganda fantasy.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 05:49 PM

208. K&R

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:33 PM

209. Vigilante Justice = Shoot First, ask Questions Later

If there were any doubt about the wrongness of police administering "street justice",
it should be obvious from the TWO instances of southern California police firing dozens of bullets
at pickup trucks that in no way resembled the suspect's vehicle,
and were driven by people who in no way resembled the suspect!

They were out for blood and shot at, and in the first instance, injured 2 newspaper delivery women.
In the second incident all of their shots missed the surfer they were targeting (which raises other questions).
Many shots also hit surrounding houses. One terrified homeowner called 911 to report his house was being shot at and was told the police were already there.

The police must never allow themselves to lose control like that,
and if they do, there needs to be a thorough house-cleaning.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:00 PM

212. And there we have it

drone mentality gone viral.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:27 PM

215. justice comes in all shades of grey



is there any doubt that he murdered that young girl? I dont think so. Is there any doubt that he murdered her father? I dont think so.

or do we all 'just know' that he killed them?





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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:51 PM

216. AMEN!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:53 PM

217. We Live in Vigilante Times

 

Where some pigs are more equal than others....
.


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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:15 PM

219. A thought that's been congealing over time in my brain.

A lot of pleas for civility are coming from those with no experience in the field of catching murderers.

I do not hear anyone personally volunteering to catch these killers. Is anyone volunteering to walk into a situation like that? I no not think it is appropriate to expect, or employ, others to do so. And, if an enemy has a proven ability to escape, there might not have been time to set up the proper method of catching them with non lethal techniques. That's what people expect, but it might be easier said than done. If there were a possibility that a killer would escape and kill more innocent people, including the police, there's less choice in such a situation.

Now there's the issue of whether that makes me liberal/progressive not. I don't believe in the death penalty. Once you have captured someone, I am not going to expect others to kill them. But when one is in a life or death situation I can see how killing can save the lives of innocent people.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:18 PM

220. The authoritarian contingent always responds this way.

For the most part, they're the same people who always support the party leadership, no matter what they're doing. I can't say it was surprising to watch the way the arguments split around here over the last few days.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:28 PM

221. Wasn't that his manifesto........

after all he killed people that were only remotely related to his perceived grievances. In order words FUCK HIM....he isn't worth the effort.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:34 PM

222. Laws and courts are for normal people, not animals like Dorner.

You and I are normal people although, frankly, I'm not so sure about you...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 02:27 AM

229. We know how MannyGoldstein feels, but the real questions how does 3rd way Manny feel?

In all seriousness, I completely agree with your post.

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