HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Main » General Discussion (Forum) » There were other options

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:17 PM

There were other options

When I first heard about Dorner being holed up in the cabin, I assumed that we would be looking at a stand-off lasting days, if not weeks. Why? Because we've seen this before. Even with Waco, the standoff lasted for quite awhile before the decision was made to go in.

In this case, they knew where he was. They knew that his goal was to kill as many law enforcement as possible. There was no need to put officers' lives in danger.

They also knew that he had limited firepower and limited ammo - after all, it would be very difficult to carry a lot of ammo and weaponry through the woods like that.

Why not establish a perimeter, cordon off the area so that nobody could get through unnoticed. Why not make use of robotics, which would allow them to check out the house without exposing anyone to danger? Why not wait until nightfall? After all, they have the advantage of night-vision/infrared/thermal vision. If he tried to sneak out of the house at night, he would have stood out like a Christmas tree. Plus, he was only one person - he'd have to sleep sometime.

Fact is, they have technology exactly for these types of things - so that they can minimize risk to human life. Once they had his location pinned down, there's no reason why they couldn't have just established a defensive perimeter and waited him out.

71 replies, 2951 views

Reply to this thread

Back to top Alert abuse

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 71 replies Author Time Post
Reply There were other options (Original post)
Hugabear Feb 2013 OP
LisaL Feb 2013 #1
NCTraveler Feb 2013 #6
dbackjon Feb 2013 #70
backtoblue Feb 2013 #10
Hugabear Feb 2013 #44
robinlynne Feb 2013 #50
sharp_stick Feb 2013 #2
Hugabear Feb 2013 #9
LisaL Feb 2013 #12
marions ghost Feb 2013 #61
liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #13
LisaL Feb 2013 #15
liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #18
LisaL Feb 2013 #22
tblue Feb 2013 #23
Yavin4 Feb 2013 #42
tblue Feb 2013 #65
frylock Feb 2013 #26
tblue Feb 2013 #68
robinlynne Feb 2013 #29
Dorian Gray Feb 2013 #71
sibelian Feb 2013 #51
backscatter712 Feb 2013 #69
HERVEPA Feb 2013 #3
LisaL Feb 2013 #5
Hugabear Feb 2013 #7
NCTraveler Feb 2013 #8
HERVEPA Feb 2013 #20
LisaL Feb 2013 #24
Hugabear Feb 2013 #27
robinlynne Feb 2013 #33
HERVEPA Feb 2013 #35
frylock Feb 2013 #30
robinlynne Feb 2013 #36
frylock Feb 2013 #41
robinlynne Feb 2013 #47
frylock Feb 2013 #48
2pooped2pop Feb 2013 #4
frylock Feb 2013 #32
randome Feb 2013 #11
LisaL Feb 2013 #14
randome Feb 2013 #16
loli phabay Feb 2013 #31
LisaL Feb 2013 #49
marions ghost Feb 2013 #63
Light House Feb 2013 #17
Avalux Feb 2013 #19
RebelOne Feb 2013 #25
frylock Feb 2013 #34
Avalux Feb 2013 #59
frylock Feb 2013 #60
Avalux Feb 2013 #62
frylock Feb 2013 #67
robinlynne Feb 2013 #52
JoePhilly Feb 2013 #21
COLGATE4 Feb 2013 #28
Sheepshank Feb 2013 #40
Hugabear Feb 2013 #43
Sheepshank Feb 2013 #46
Hugabear Feb 2013 #37
JoePhilly Feb 2013 #45
Hugabear Feb 2013 #54
JoePhilly Feb 2013 #55
Hugabear Feb 2013 #57
JoePhilly Feb 2013 #58
egduj Feb 2013 #38
wandy Feb 2013 #39
Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #53
EC Feb 2013 #56
RebelOne Feb 2013 #64
Electric Monk Feb 2013 #66

Response to Hugabear (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:19 PM

1. For what purpose should they have waited out? What would that accomplish?

They waited out with Dykes for a week. He still ended up dead.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:24 PM

6. So that justice could have been delivered.

Without risk of danger to themselves, if law enforcement can possibly end a situation without additional bloodshed, that is what should be done. Dykes had a hostage, and like here, they went in. Two completely different situations.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to NCTraveler (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:00 PM

70. Dorner killed himself. Didn't matter how long they waited

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:28 PM

10. Dykes had a child for a hostage is the difference

Dorner was presumably alone and the police took him out before he could kill anyone else.

If the media reports are correct then the firing stopped, one single shot was heard, and they torched the place. Dorner shot himself, then they lit him up.

That's the story. According to his own words, he knew he would end up dead. He planned to fight until that time and the police were well aware of that.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to backtoblue (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:26 PM

44. PRESUMABLY?

This is another good point. How would they have known if there was anybody else in the cabin?

Do we just PRESUME they're alone, and then take action?

Or is it okay if we kill innocent civilians and children as long as we get the very bad people? (Yes, this argument has actually been made here on DU recently)

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Reply #44)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:51 PM

50. I'm not sure, but I believe they did know there was nobody in the cabin. This is a winter resort.

People spend the weekends there to ski. The cabin was such a cabin, on a golf course. the police went door to door to every cabin beforehand, determining which cabins had occupants, which did not, and if any had forced entries. They would also have contacted the cabin's owner within minutes. So they probably knew if that cabin was vacant. They saw Dorner go in. he was alone. The story of the other cabin wa son tv within minutes. The family who owned it were going to go for the weekend, decided not to because of Dorner.

this is a relatively small resort town.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:19 PM

2. Fuck Dorner

I'm done with the poor poor Dorner fan club.

So many armchair experts in this place I'm surprised that all these obvious SWAT members don't have better things to do.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sharp_stick (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:27 PM

9. And fuck the blood-lust crowd

Is it really so hard to believe that many of us would prefer to see a non-violent approach attempted? You make it sound like anybody who dares suggest a non-violent approach is somehow a "Dorner fan club" - which is complete total bullshit.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:29 PM

12. No, it's not hard to believe, considering the number of posts about it. On, and on, and on.

What non-violent approach, when Dorner allegedly had a shoot out and killed a cop prior to getting into that cabin could have possibly been attempted? He still was armed.
Presumably he still could shoot despite being in the cabin.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:01 PM

61. I agree they had few options BUT it is right to spend some time

questioning what happened. There are legitimate questions here.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:30 PM

13. This is the second thread where some of the comments made me think I was on a

republican website, not a democratic one.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:32 PM

15. Well I guess we are not all carbon copies of each other.

Does that surprise you?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:38 PM

18. it does surprise me when democrats act like republicans

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:48 PM

22. Oh please. This has nothing about acting like republicans.

Using deadly force by LE against someone posing a threat is legal.
This guy was allegedly armed and wasn't harmless as a kitten, even if he was in the cabin, despite what some here are trying to claim.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to liberal_at_heart (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:52 PM

23. Maybe at heart

we are just as hateful but just, usually, toward a different target. I don't like thinking that, but I'm sure there's some truth to it.

I don't like violence. It is inexcusable that this individual went that horrible route, for whatever reason. He had to pay for what he did, sooner or later. But I can't lose sight of the fact that the police can be as corrupt and evil as the day is long and there are untold numbers of people unjustly harmed by PDs every day. Dorner had a point to make, but he made it in exactly the wrong way. I'm pretty sure that if he'd gone the conventional route, no one would ever have known his story, and he knew that and figured this was worth it. Tragic on so many levels. Nothing good comes out of this story unless police corruption in the LAPD is rooted out. Not holding my breath.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to tblue (Reply #23)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:22 PM

42. "if he'd gone the conventional route....

I'm pretty sure that if he'd gone the conventional route, no one would ever have known his story, and he knew that and figured this was worth it.


Why do you say that? There's plenty of media that would have published his evidence. I completely disagree with your statement. If you have any hard evidence about corruption in the LAPD, there are tons of media outlets that would have listened to your story.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Yavin4 (Reply #42)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:40 PM

65. Really?

No, of course I don't. But I have heard about problems with this PD many times over the years. It's not a news story. If it was, you'd have read it and so would I.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:00 PM

26. that's how authoritarians are programmed to think..

it's all black/white. no nuance, and any disagreement will get you pegged as a sympathizer, if not an outright accomplice. welcome to the big tent.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to frylock (Reply #26)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:41 PM

68. Oy. Yup.

Just like rightwingers on terrorism. It's all black and white. They're all terrorists and therefore bad and we Americans are good. Nothing to be learned, no way to prevent attacks in the future. Just hate and close your mind and move on.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:04 PM

29. I don't think a "non-violent" approach is considered when someone shoots police. when someone kills

police family members? I just don't see that as any sort of a realistic possibility.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:01 PM

71. I understand the non-violent approach appreciation

too bad he didn't have that approach himself.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sharp_stick (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:55 PM

51. Once again, for the hard of understanding...


The positions is not "Poor Dorner". The position is "Dangerously Overenthusiastic Police." It is not necessary to believe the former to arrive at the latter.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to sharp_stick (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:57 PM

69. Oh, disapproving of reckless police tactics means I'm a Dorner fanboy?

Your shit-stirring is noted.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:20 PM

3. Agree

No reason for the police to be in harm's way in this situation once he was in the cabin.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HERVEPA (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:21 PM

5. So they should sit out there in the snow day and night for however long?

Would you like that job?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:24 PM

7. Police routinely conduct standoffs

Should we just put an end to all standoffs, and immediately resort to burning criminals out? Why not just arm police drones with Hellfire missiles, and anytime a murderer takes shelter in a house, just level it with a precision strike?

After all, we wouldn't want to inconvenience anybody with a stand-off.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:25 PM

8. What does liking the job have to do with it? nt.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:41 PM

20. I wouldn't choose to be in law enforcement. They did.

and rather than have a cop killed, yeh, waiting would have been better

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to HERVEPA (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:54 PM

24. How would waiting prevent cops from being killed?

Considering Dorner was reportedly armed?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:02 PM

27. Was there any reason to expose cops to someone holed up who they knew was a cop-killer?

Like I said. Establish a defensive perimeter. Don't put your cops in a position where there is a likely chance of being shot.

Then just wait him out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:05 PM

33. actually they kept from being shot. They did exactly what you are suggesting; eliminated the possibi

lity of another person being shot.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #24)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:06 PM

35. Stay behind something that blocks metal??

Eventually he comes out and exposes himself or dies in the house.
Or if he comes out, throw a grenade. I really don't care if he dies, don't need cops dying needlessly.
And it's hard to believe they wouldn't have other means to get him out of there or knock him out somehow.
Law enforcement is kind of sophisticated these days. I'm sure they could fiollow his movement at night via infrared.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:04 PM

30. give me convenience, or give me death..

is this the new normal?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to frylock (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:06 PM

36. not about normal. This felt like the hunt for Osama Bin Laden, as many people said.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to robinlynne (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:16 PM

41. that's just ridiculous hyperbole..

Osama bin laden? really?!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to frylock (Reply #41)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:31 PM

47. I live in Los Angeles. That is how it felt. POlice were out shooting people becuase they were in

trucks.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to robinlynne (Reply #47)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:34 PM

48. kinda underscores some of the accusations leveled at the cops IMHO..

not siding with dorner at all, but just sayin'.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:21 PM

4. no reason cept that toasting him meant no long drawn out trial

that would bring a lot of attention on their authortarian tactics and record of abuse of the people they were hired to protect.

If that was you or me he killed, rather than some of their own, there would not have been this kind of action and he would not have died in that fire. IMO

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to 2pooped2pop (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:05 PM

32. true that

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:28 PM

11. Dorner was a sharpshooter. Should they have surrounded the area and waited to be picked off?

If they backed out of range, they would have less chance to see him sneaking away in the dead of night.

I don't at this point believe they purposely set fire to the cabin. 'Burners' is a slang term for 'incendiary gas canisters'.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:30 PM

14. According to many on DU, sure.

And if couple of more cops got killed, so what?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:32 PM

16. They probably did SOMETHING wrong at some point in their lives, right?

I don't know if this was the correct decision to make but I wasn't there and this is not my field of expertise so I'm willing to give law enforcement -LAPD, I believe, did not make the decision- the benefit of the doubt.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to randome (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:04 PM

31. this. he was a sniper and had the training to pick of Leo counter snipers

 

The problem with a perimeter is it can be broken and especially one that is out of sniper range. You would need hunxreds of Leo to secure that area even with technology. Would you want to risk other Leo lives or his escape. Personally if they didnt intentially burn him out I if I wash the sheriff would have looked favourably on that as a plan to take the initiative and get him into the open into my tac teams kill zone.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to loli phabay (Reply #31)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:40 PM

49. It appears they send in tear gas.

Which presumably caught the cabin on fire.
So it wasn't exactly an intentional burn, rather a side-effect of tear gas.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to LisaL (Reply #49)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:16 PM

63. First they bashed the walls of the cabin

he did not come out, so then they intentionally set fire to the front with incendiaries--he could still have run out the back and surrendered. The armored vehicle was working the situation and the other cops were far off. I could be wrong but this is how it went down IMO. I am no expert.

From a psychology standpoint (which I am more familiar with) they had every reason to believe that Dorner would never surrender. But he did get chances. I think they thought he would rather suicide than surrender. And that would seem to be correct. They really couldn't risk men no matter how well armed, entering the place.

I think everything the law did was very intentional. They couldn't afford to mess up again.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:32 PM

17. And what?

 

Give Dorner more time to plan an escape or kill more officers? This man proved to be resourceful and very, very dangerous.
He never had any intention of being taken alive, he CHOSE to go out the way he did and the country and world are a better place without him.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:40 PM

19. I'm taking a hard line on this, sorry.

He made choices, as a human being, to take lives, to kill innocent people. To publicly state he would kill more people. He knew the tactics of the police, and was a very dangerous individual. Sure it would have been nice if he'd been caught alive and had a trial, but it didn't work out that way. It was his decision to hide out in that cabin, his decision to shoot at the cops and kill one of them.

My statements above in no way mean that I am siding with the LAPD. It's just that there are consequences to actions, unfortunately.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Avalux (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:56 PM

25. I must agree with you. It was all his choice.

And I believe it was his choice to be taken out like he was. He knew there was no other way out.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Avalux (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:05 PM

34. taking hard lines is the hallmark of conservative thinking

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to frylock (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:31 PM

59. Why are you insulting me?

The 'hard line' is simply that Dorner made choices and is accountable for them.

I am not siding or sympathizing with anyone or any institution in this unfortunate incident. And I'm certainly not conservative.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Avalux (Reply #59)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:42 PM

60. my apologies..

had a rough morning.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to frylock (Reply #60)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:05 PM

62. Apology accepted....

and for that, you get a heart! Hope your day got better!

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Avalux (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:45 PM

67. awwwwwwwwhhhhhh..

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Avalux (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:55 PM

52. Yes, and I dont think he had any intention of being arrested either.

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink


Response to Hugabear (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:46 PM

21. What's your expertise in this area?

I'm no expert.

You sound like one.

What in your background and experience should inspire me to trust your expertise?

Reply to this post

Back to top Alert abuse Link here Permalink