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Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:27 PM

Dorner's con game worked

Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:34 PM - Edit history (4)

Many here have bought into his excuses for going on a murdering spree and decided his life means more than those of all the people--civilian and police alike--that he killed.
You'll fallen for the PR of a psychopathic killer. Too bad James Holmes or Alex Lanza didn't write manifestos. They might have fan clubs here as well.

There is a difference between a reason for someone's actions and how one justifies them. Dorner invoked references to actual LAPD corruption because he knew it would incur sympathy with the public. He sought to justify his murder spree. Police corruption was not a reason or a cause for his actions; it was his excuse.

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Reply Dorner's con game worked (Original post)
BainsBane Feb 2013 OP
ananda Feb 2013 #1
BainsBane Feb 2013 #2
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #5
BainsBane Feb 2013 #7
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #13
BainsBane Feb 2013 #17
Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #19
d06204 Feb 2013 #146
Skidmore Feb 2013 #20
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robinlynne Feb 2013 #186
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robinlynne Feb 2013 #192
tblue Feb 2013 #61
JDPriestly Feb 2013 #87
theKed Feb 2013 #31
robinlynne Feb 2013 #56
BainsBane Feb 2013 #68
robinlynne Feb 2013 #75
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robinlynne Feb 2013 #129
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robinlynne Feb 2013 #169
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robinlynne Feb 2013 #176
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AAO Feb 2013 #112
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AAO Feb 2013 #221
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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:28 PM

1. Can we not recognize and abhor the corruption and incompetence of the LAPD ..

.. and at the same time abhor and condemn murderous violence on the part of Dorner as well?

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Response to ananda (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:29 PM

2. Yes

if only that were happening. I see very few people doing that.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:35 PM

5. I was pointing that out on other threads, this is a blanket sort of OP I think

So were alot of others, btw

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:37 PM

7. I'm glad you have done that

Obviously I did not mean all DUers, as I don't count myself among them. But prior to yesterday we saw a number of people justifying Dorner's murder spree because they liked what they read in his manifesto. Last night and today I've seen a great deal of outrage over his death but not about those he killed.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:41 PM

13. Well yes, you do have a point there. Personally I think its overall a reaction to how much Badwill

the LAPD has managed to build for themselves, thats overcoming common sense.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:43 PM

17. and that is exactly what Dorner was playing on

That's why he justified his actions as he did. He knew how much the LAPD is hated and saw that as a way to incur sympathy for his actions.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:45 PM

19. Oh I agree totally. He was very good at milking the hostility to the LAPD

In fact I think he will be copied, I think he's pioneered something new. Not sure what to call it.

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Response to Katashi_itto (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:12 PM

146. Call it S.B.C.


Suicide By Cop

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:46 PM

20. So is it possible to recognize both--that Dorner was a seriously disturbed individual

with grievances (some which may have been legitimate) and that LAPD has a longstanding history of corruption and brutality towards the community? I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Dorner, in my estimation, was deserving of the most severe punishment available under the law had he been captured and brought to trial. However, that does not mean that abuses by the LA law enforcement personnel should be excused or winked at because they wear blue. Not all who wear the uniform are "the good guys" anymore than all identified "bad guys" are guilty.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:54 PM

26. I agree

both are correct. I wish more people stated their views as you do.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #26)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:26 PM

186. We are. you are interpreting what we say. There is noone here on DU who defends what DOrner did.

Yet you repeatedly say there are.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #186)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:32 PM

190. You are excusing it

You have repeatedly done so. You specifically have. You said he was perfectly fine until the LAPD pushed him over the edge, that they "caused the whole thing." If that isn't a defense, what is it?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #190)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:35 PM

192. NO I did not.

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Response to Skidmore (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:54 PM

61. If I had a heart

I'd give you one. Anyway:

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:22 PM

87. Why do you think Dorner did what he did?

He had to have known what the outcome would be?

Was he crazy? Just really all that angry? Did he really feel he had been treated unjustly?

Was he a phony?

Seems like it was a pretty stupid way to air his grievances, but why did he choose it? For the same reason that he met with failure in other areas of his life?

I agree that he should not have killed anyone. But why did he? Or was he just irrational?

Do you have an opinion on this? Do you care? Or is it enough for you just to dismiss him as evil?

I'm curious about why you care about this enough to post.

I've seen people defend all kinds of crazy things on the internet. Why does this cause you to react the way you do?

I kind of stayed away from the topic because I felt that less attention paid to it was better, but some seemed to want to put this guy in the spotlight. Why do you suppose that is?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:04 PM

31. I can't recall seeing anyone

actually justifying his killings. I saw a lot of people talking about the LAPD (well, not just the LAPD) and their actions and reactions to the events that unfolded. I saw a few people trying to understand what caused such a thing to happen in the first place. And I saw a lot of vitriol towards those people. But not one person that I saw felt he was excused for his acts.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:45 PM

56. I saw none. I saw Duers discussing his manifesto. discussing the LAPd. dsicussing what caused ALL of

this to happen. (except for his mental health which we do not know about). You interpret that as jusitfying a killing spree.
it IS NOT. This is your perception, as opposed to reality. I think that is what people are trying to tell you.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #56)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:03 PM

68. that you imagine the LAPD caused this

shows you bought into his con. LAPD corruption didn't cause his murder spree. It didn't even trigger it. He left the LAPD in 2009 but started killing only last week, shortly after being passed over for promotion in the navy and losing his commission. He wrote a manifesto talking about police corruption to incur sympathy from the public--who are rightfully angry with the LAPD. He didn't target the military because no one would have bought into that argument.

Dorner caused the murder spree. No one is responsible for his actions but himself.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:13 PM

75. You missed the five years in Court. And the other 2 officers who already came forward

confirming that what Dormer wrote tends to happen in the LAPD. even though they want no association whatsoever with DOrner.

He is a murderer. fact. What he wrote is likely true, and the story he told is likely true. One does not preclude the other.

You don't have to like him to admit what happened. it is not hero vs villain as some here would have it.

Once he killed the young couple, he was a murderer. there is no doubt about that.

But if things are happening that drive people over the edge, and they continue to happen, what do you think the result will be?

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #75)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:17 PM

81. so you are saying anyone who loses a HR case

is going to go out an kill people, and their murders are understandable because they were driven "over the edge"? And the fact the spree coincided with his being passed up for promotion by the military is irrelevant?

People who go over the edge were never on stable ground to begin with. That is a function of his own psychological instability. Thousands of people have been in Dorner's position and not resorted to murder.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #81)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:01 PM

129. no. I am not. I am saying people who go through living hell for 5 years come out of it

in different ways. people shoot coworkers, spouses, people commit suicide. people go into therapy. eople start new lives.
People can be, and are, pushed over the edge. What they do at that point depends on many many factors.


hunger, rape, injustice, so many things can take people over the edge. All accounts say he was always a happy and mellow person until this 5 year trial. I dont know anything about him.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #129)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:45 PM

163. No way

was he a happy mellow person. Mellow people don't do things like this. The notion is absurd.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #163)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:47 PM

165. and yet that is what person after person who knew him says on tv. and every single photograph.

not one with a scowl.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #165)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:49 PM

166. Oh, like the serial killers

He was a nice quite guy. BTK was a model citizen. A great neighbor. Honestly. Every psychopath is a nice quite guy until he gets his hands on weapons and starts killing people.

Why do you suppose he was twice passed over for promotion in the navy? Seems to me they figured out the guy wasn't right in the head.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #166)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:55 PM

169. because he was fired from the LAPD? and in Court against the LAPD? could be.

No. the serial killers are generally loners. quiet. This guy was happy and boisterous according to the accounts on tv.

I dont know anything about him one way or another. only what the tv says. Just that the evidence out, so far, is that he was a happy person.

There are stories that he found $8,000 and returned it. and Stories of being good natured. no stories of any sort of violence. or of being irrational, moody, whatever. (and being irrational or moody does not mena you will kill people)

No, he doesnt sound like the "typical serial killer".

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #169)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:58 PM

170. well he was a spree killer

so obviously you and his friends didn't know him.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #170)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:05 PM

176. He is one now. He was not until a week ago.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #170)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:06 PM

177. and, these were murders, cold blooded murders, not like a sniper shooting anyone in sight.

He is most definitely a murderer.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #177)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:10 PM

179. a sniper isn't cold blooded

really? Cold blooded is merely a determinate of the demeanor of the person at the time. It doesn't say anything about the severity of the murder. I would think snipers would be unusually calm. They are trained to be that way. Dorner, however, was not a trained sniper.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #68)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:48 PM

112. I haven't heard anyone that thinks the LAPD is responsible for his action.

 

Even if everything Dorner said was true, it would NEVER justify killing a human being.

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Response to AAO (Reply #112)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:41 PM

161. The response right below yours.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2367954

56. I saw none. I saw Duers discussing his manifesto. discussing the LAPd. dsicussing what caused ALL of

this to happen. (except for his mental health which we do not know about). You interpret that as jusitfying a killing spree.
it IS NOT. This is your perception, as opposed to reality. I think that is what people are trying to tell you.

Then there is this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022364844#post3

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:16 PM

181. Nothing in my post says the LAPD is responsible for his action. I don't think that. nor does anyone

else. That is your fantasy. I think this guy probably went through 5 years of living hell. like someone being raped repeatedly. like living in a war.
like a kafka novel. imagine if ti si true that in his trial, 2 of the people judging were friends of the persons he was accusing. (I don't know if it is true or not.)

That does not excuse anything. nor does saying "he is mentally ill., when you just don't know.


A hungry person might kill someone who is throwing away food, when they get desperate enough. That does not EXCUSE murder. but it does tell you that if you people are starving, violence may ensue.

edited to spell check.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #181)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:26 PM

187. You said the LAPD caused his actions

He was a nice, mellow guy until 5 years of LAPD trial. All it tells me is that you've bought into his con, the very point I raised in the OP. He put out a manifesto to persuade the public to have sympathy for him, and he convinced you. You specifically said the LAPD "caused all of this."

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #187)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:31 PM

189. NO I DID NOT. I specifically DID NOT.

The situation that happened over 5 years probably caused his actions. And it looks like a terrible injustice happened at that trial.
THAT DOES NOT EXCUSE MURDER to anyone.

psych 101.

There is a huge difference between looking to see why it is common for abused boys to become abusers, which is important to learn, and saying "he had the right to murder because he was abused".

two different worlds of thought. You are interpreting/projecting, very incorrectly.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #189)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:40 PM

195. so don't you think

the explanation is far more likely to reside in his childhood than five years ago?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #195)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:55 PM

203. I think the five years is much more likely. no idea though.

don't know about his childhood.
I do know that the 20 or so minutes I have spent in Court over the past year watching a judge rule in seconds without finding out the truth first (because the Judge is doing 100 hearings per day and she only has 2-3 minutes to decide my Mother's future) have caused months and months of pain.
I will never hurt anyone. And my court case is quite different. but watching injustice in Court is really hard to do. Things you witness can change you.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #187)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:33 PM

191. only you keep saying that. This is your thing. Do you come form an LAPD family/ Something that is

not there is bothering you.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #191)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:39 PM

194. No, not at all

I hate murder. I hate guns, I hate the death penalty, and I oppose murder of all kinds.
That's really it. I don't like seeing anyone sympathize with someone who goes around murdering people. I don't particularly like police, but I don't hate them either. I don't assume they are liars or corrupt without evidence. I happen to live in a city (Minneapolis) with a really shitty police force, whereas the one in the neighboring city (St. Paul) is entirely different, not without corruption and screw ups, but not as bad as Minneapolis' force. Certainly there is plenty of evidence of corruption in the LAPD, but I don't see that as a "cause," proximate or otherwise, of Dorner's murder spree. As you note, it was five years ago. He began killing last week, shortly after being denied promotion by the navy and losing his commission. I think he deliberately played the public with his manifesto. Did he have legitimate grievances with the LAPD, probably. That's a reason for a law suit, not a murder spree.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #194)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:58 PM

204. This is the first post where you seem human. I dont sympathize with Dorner.

but I would like the situation that happened, if true, to be addressed. just as I would like Cheney investigated and prosecuted. I don't like injustice.
I also do not like violence, guns, or murder!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #161)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:28 PM

221. Your entire argument is based on a DU post?

 

I don't think that would hold up in a court of law.

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Response to AAO (Reply #221)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:33 PM

222. It's based on a series of posts

and I provided multiple links in this thread. Since the post is about DU responses to Dorner, why should it be based on something other than DU posts?

I wasn't aware the criteria for posting on this site required holding up in a court of law. That's a new one.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #222)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:39 PM

223. Yeah, that was a bit of a stretch

 

Travel in peace, my friend.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:19 PM

83. Oh Really?

You said:
"But prior to yesterday we saw a number of people justifying Dorner's murder spree"

I was here yesterday,
and I don't recall a single post "justifying Dorner's murder spree".

Perhaps you can post some links to support your claim?

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #83)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:31 PM

94. I'm waiting too

 

Where are the links?

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #94)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:20 PM

183. so you thought

you'd gossip rather than asking me directly. There are links throughout this thread. Try reading.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #83)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:03 PM

132. +1

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #83)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:19 PM

149. +1

I'm waiting for those links also.

I think the more likely scenario, is not a single poster was justifying anything.

There are just a few that are saying that a percieved ideological opponent was.

Games.

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Response to bvar22 (Reply #83)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:19 PM

182. I have provided links throughout this thread

One person compared Dorner to Che Guevara. I took particular exception to that.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220398

This entire meta thread dealt with the issue: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220366

Then there is the guy who claimed Obama staged the whole Doner thing (I guess like he supposedly staged Sandyhook) to justify spying on Americans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2347592\

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:05 PM

137. I never saw anything at all like that. nt.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:13 PM

147. Which just goes to show there are crazy people on both sides of the political aisle.

I am unhappy with the way this played out for a number of reasons, none of which has anything to do with sympathy for Dorner.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:49 PM

22. Then you are not looking.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:53 PM

117. Kind of a lame response.......................

 

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Response to firenewt (Reply #117)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:56 PM

121. to a "deserving" post.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:42 PM

104. it's because you're only seeing what you want to see..

there's maybe 4-5 people that are completely siding with dorner, AT BEST.

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Response to frylock (Reply #104)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:32 PM

158. There are 27 recs

to this OP. Obviously others have seen it as well.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:43 PM

106. You need glasses.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:32 PM

157. Then you are seeing the post through fire colored glasses...

 

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Response to ananda (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:38 PM

9. That's my stance, but I've witnessed what the OP is talking about. nt

 

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Response to ananda (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:04 PM

29. That would require nuance - that's a difficult thing!

I'm with you - I'm fresh out of sympathy for Dorner - murdering innocent people has that effect on me.

But the LAPD has also behaved badly. They basically executed Dorner without a trial, probably as much for his exposure of their continued corruption, racism and oppression, as for his murders of LAPD officers.

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Response to ananda (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:30 PM

46. Spot on! The LAPD has a long history of corruption and abuse of power,

which of course does not excuse the murderous actions of Dorner.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #46)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:35 PM

49. not only does it not excuse his actions

It is entirely unrelated to his murders. He invoked outrage over the LAPD to incur sympathy from the public. His murder spree was preceded by his second denial for promotion by the navy, which meant he was out of the service. But he didn't rail on against corruption in the military because no one would have believed it. He chose the LAPD as a convenient excuse for his murderous rage. That is it.

Think about it. He left the LAPD in 2009. He only just started his spree last week. The trigger event was being passed over for promotion and losing his naval commission.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #49)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:42 PM

53. True, however the reality that he is a murderer does not invalidate the long history of coruption

inside the LAPD.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #53)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:53 PM

59. no, I never said it did

Instead my point is that it is unrelated.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #59)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:14 PM

77. Sorry, I miss understood your point.

But now that I do understand your point, I disagree. It seems to me, his release from the LAPD over his breaking from the "Good Ole Boy Network" has been the driving force of his rage and violence regardless of the timing. If he were simply a murderer out to kill randomly he would have killed the people whom he stole the car from rather than leaving them unharmed and tied up. The evidence points to him having targeted rage not random violence, and therefore the two issues are teid together.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #77)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:19 PM

85. I'm sure he was full of rage

He collected resentment and outrage. But that does not mean the legitimate issue of police corruption explains his actions.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #85)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:25 PM

91. True! The average person would not go on a killing spree because of that

but it does not mean that Dorner did not do it because of that reason. Who knows what mix of thoughts go on in someone's mind? He obviously was harboring rage which he would not let go of, why he did what he did, when he did, can only be speculated.

Peace out!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #85)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:08 PM

143. Nothing explains his actions. They caused the anger which resulted in his actions.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #143)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:51 PM

167. you just explained his actions

He lost his case before the LAPD. It drove him over the edge, you claim. He was a nice mellow guy before then. Just like BTK and every other serial killer.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #167)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:04 PM

175. That is the story we know, so far, from the witnesses who knew him on tv. I'm sure we know very litt

little.

I don't claim anything. That is what I deduce from all of the evidence we have heard so far. We know that the people who knew him have been coming forward saying he was happy, mellow, good natured honest. We know he was in court for 5 years, where he lost repeatedly. and appealed and lost again. We know what he said in his letter. We know what he did. I am not a judge.

For a moment there was a scandal on tv about a restraining order. turned out it was not against him. So far there is no indication of mental illness 5 years ago. There is indication he turned in a superior office for beating a person in handcuffs.
I have not heard anyone go on the record and say he was violent or anything similar 5 years ago.

so far.
We just don't know what really happened.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #59)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:06 PM

138. All information about DOrner's history available up till now indicates that you are incorrect.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #49)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:05 PM

135. I dont think you studied psychology, did you?

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Response to ananda (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:47 PM

110. I agree with you.

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Response to ananda (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:41 PM

224. That is exactly how I feel

he was wrong and terrible for what he did, but LAPD was wrong in how they handled it. Shooting cars that looked like his with women in them? Goodness…if I lived in LA I would be afraid to drive.

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Response to ananda (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:08 PM

228. Yes, if we're not simplistic idiots. Apparently that's asking too much of some.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:30 PM

3. +1

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:30 PM

4. all of his life is others peoples fault.... ah, a hero.

wtf???

i hear ya. this has been interesting (and not in a good way) seeing how this developed.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:36 PM

6. Let me direct you to the Rude Pundit, for he addresses your concerns most admirably. . .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022357614

Again and again and again, the right in this country thinks that it's impossible to hold a couple of thoughts in one's head at the same time. You can think that Dorner might have a legitimate grievance that he is bringing to the public's attention in the worst possible way. And you can also hope that the authorities shoot, or, preferably, arrest the messenger.

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:39 PM

11. It isn't that people can't hold two thoughts.

It's that many can't allow for a single fact without reflexively bringing in unrelated facts.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:52 PM

115. The impact of LAPD's racism and corruption on him is not an "unrelated fact".

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #115)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:54 PM

118. It may be related, but is irrelevant.

Unless those are now defenses for murder. Are they?

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #118)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:00 PM

171. If it's related, it's relevant. And because he is dead and never got the benefit of a trial,

we'll never know all the details.

But your fawning adoration for cops out of control is duly noted.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #171)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:53 PM

201. Know how he could have gotten a trial?

BY NOT KILLING MORE PEOPLE AND BY SURRENDERING.

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Response to Journeyman (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:40 PM

51. We knew from the actions of the LAPD in the first days of this,

that Dorner would not be taken alive, the LAPD had no intention of letting Dorner's voice be heard. It's a shame Dorner didn't have the presence of a stable mind, to write a book or find some other way to get the story out about the corruption in the LAPD. Given all that, Dorner's legacy will be that of a murderer.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:37 PM

8. Mental health care treatment might stop some of these

psychos from acting out on their urges. As a country, we fail completely in that department, and then insist that these sick people be able to get guns.

That the LAPD is incompetent and corrupt is without doubt. But Dorner is also a murderer.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:38 PM

10. I agree 100%

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:33 PM

96. I have known people who were extremely depressed because they lost their jobs due

to the unfairness of their employer.

Do you think that mental health care could change some of the horrible employers in our country?

I don't know whether you saw the video featuring Wonder Bread/Hostess Corp. employees. They described how their employer had taken money out of their checks to put in a pension fund and then basically used the pension funds for purposes other than the employer had promised. Of course, then in bankruptcy court, the employer basically stole the pension funds.

Do you think that mental health care for the bosses at Wonder Bread/Hostess would help our country?

I am amazed at how nonviolent people remain when they have to deal with the fact that their employer stole from them, from their pension funds, broke promises.

Who needs the mental health care here?

I don't know what really happened in Dorner's situation. I'm not talking about that. I had the impression that the LAPD had straightened itself out a great deal and is doing far better than many of the police forces in the nation.

But more generally, why is it always the little, frustrated guy, the powerless person whom we view as mentally ill?

Do we just label the weak and helpless as mentally ill?

What about a powerful guy like Donald Trump? Does he need mental health care so that he can feel more compassion? How about the Koch Brothers? Do we view them as mentally healthy, sane just because they have money?

Do we equate wealth with mental health and poverty with mental illness? Is mental illness sometimes just a code word for: annoying, bothersome, difficult, sassy, . . . . ?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #96)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:00 PM

211. +1

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:43 PM

16. i thought I was the only one.....

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Response to CatWoman (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:04 PM

69. No sweetheart

 

There are many here going

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Response to CatWoman (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:22 PM

151. You aren't.

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Response to devilgrrl (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:43 PM

18. Hey he's making ice cream out of bullshit

I just wish he wouldn't sell it as chocolate.

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Response to devilgrrl (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:20 PM

40. Thank you. n/t

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Response to devilgrrl (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:12 PM

73. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!

Reality is hard to face, dear.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #73)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #79)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:35 PM

97. 18 hidden posts!

 

Sorry I can't stop laughing about that. 18 really?

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #97)


Response to devilgrrl (Reply #102)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:44 PM

108. 18 hidden posts is just so fucking amazing!

 

But she is RIGHT!

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Response to devilgrrl (Reply #102)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:47 PM

111. I Tried To Read Them

 

Seriously but I was just wetting my pantalons. Could not get through them.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #73)


Response to Zoeisright (Reply #73)


Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:41 PM

14. The manifesto just grabbed people.

It wouldn't have been so effective on black and white thinkers if the LAPD weren't notoriously corrupt. Some people love to pick sides and cannot see the whole picture. I do think that almost all posters here see the LAPD and Dorner as filth.

I did have the same thought as you about the manifesto and Lanza.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2350442

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Response to NCTraveler (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:51 PM

210. LAPD shooting up trucks full of civilians didnt help much.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:42 PM

15. As I stated in another post regarding Dorner

the world is NOT black and white and pretending people who can see shades of grey somehow support Dorner's actions is disingenuous. I want to know if there is any truth to his manifesto... that does not mean I see him as some sort of murder-spree folk hero and those that do tacitly state that support on DU are most likely trolls. I am capable of multiple levels of thought at the same time. I do not have to think it's okay that the police may have intentionally tried burning him out of that house, therefore causing his death. There were less violent ways to handle the situation. That doesn't mean that I support Dorner or cheered his actions. It means I don't trust the police on this specific matter. They have shown themselves not to be trustworthy... just ask the women who were delivering newspapers if the police should have been trusted in this.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:59 PM

28. but some here do

they insist that he should have had a trial and ignore the fact that he spent all day shooting at police and refuse to surrender.

If the police did intentionally burn him out, that is reprehensible and they should be punished. Here I'm assuming that violates police procedure. But I also think it right to allow police officers the same recourse to due process that people insisted Dorner receive.

I'll also point out that it was the San Bernardino Sheriff's office that was in charge of yesterday's siege, not the LAPD. So charges or corruption against LAPD--which I would personally be stunned if were false--don't relate directly to Doner's final demise.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:09 PM

33. Even though yesterday was handled by SB Sheriff's

LAPD was there. They were involved. I've read stories and seen shows (like those SWAT shows on TV) where they have someone who has shot and killed people and then holed up somewhere and they don't try and "burn them out." They bring in negotiator's and try for a peaceful resolution.

I'm not saying that the police didn't have the right to use deadly force but in this situation, there was just too much going on that could be considered questionable on the part of the police (no matter their jurisdiction). You can be damn certain that the ATF has tried to never have another Waco situation, so why would a local police department put themselves in that position?

Again, I'm not claiming Dorner wasn't a bad guy, he was. He went about things wrong but there were obvious issues with this guy that no one seemed to want to address prior to all this happening. I'm not blaming others for his actions but...but if he had a mental break (which we'll never know now), he isn't really responsible for his actions either. I mean, there's an insanity defense for a reason.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #33)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:14 PM

35. insanity is an affirmative defense

and since he's not around to make his case, I see no reason not to assume he's not responsible for his actions. I have much more sympathy for the people he killed, just as I do for the children of Sandyhook.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:19 PM

39. "I have much more sympathy..."

Maybe it's because I'm considered mentally ill by some because I suffer from clinical depression, but I have a different outlook on the mentally ill. It's not to say I'm not empathetic or don't feel worse for the victims of crimes but some mentally ill people really aren't well or thinking straight. We'll never know if that's the case with Dorner or if he was just a narcissistic bastard. I would hope that the tests from the LAPD and the US Navy would have caught some sort of mental illness, if not, we can expect more of this behavior in the future from others that slipped through the cracks.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #39)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:24 PM

44. so do I, as a matter of fact

and I would never in a million years do something like that. I don't have it in me. I resent the connection between mental illness and mass murder. Additionally, Mental illness is not insanity. One is a clinical diagnosis and the latter a legal determination.
Dorner would not have been adjudicated insane by a court.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #33)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:46 PM

256. Honestly

I don't think a negotiator would have worked here. He was seriously disturbed, and had absolutely no intention of living through this. I think it would have just ended with a dead negotiator.

That said, the shooting up of the truck was appalling and just due to that incident alone, the LAPD CERTAINLY needs to be investigated. Shooting innocent people in a different make, model and color of truck isn't just reckless, it's criminal.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:39 PM

50. and yet when asked to link to these posts where he is glorified & his killings justified, no one

 

ever does.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #50)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:51 PM

58. I have provided links to the points I made in the OP

Not your sensationalized version of them: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2367647

NadinBrezinski's responses in this thread are another example. She is unable to separate the issue of police corruption from Dorner's murder spree.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #58)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:58 PM

64. a link to yet another OP by *you* is not a link to posters justifying the killings. nadin had never

 

posted anything justifying or excusing the killings, or glorifying the killer.

fail

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #64)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:12 PM

71. You aren't paying attention

Pointing to LAPD corruption for a reason for the murders is buying into his con. The LAPD was not only not the reason. It wasn't the trigger. He left the force in 2009 but began killing last week after being denied promotion in the navy. Pointing to police corruption was his justification. Repeating that shows people here bought into his con.

Some have even said the LAPD "caused" his murder spree: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2367954

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364902

No one but Dorner himself is responsible for the murders he committed.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #71)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:32 AM

244. blah blah. you're making lots of accusations and the links you posted don't support this latest

 

accusation.

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Response to HiPointDem (Reply #244)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:34 PM

250. Look at the posts toward the end

They absolutely do support my points.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:48 PM

21. James Holmes did write some sort of "manifesto" or whatever you can call it.

He send a notebook with his writings to his shrink in some package. It just was never made public.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:15 PM

36. he didn't play to the public

in an effort to justify his actions.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:50 PM

23. Dorner was a disgruntled worker who decided on a 2nd amendment solution.

We've had lots of these disgruntled 2nd amendment solution seekers.

Disgruntled workers who "go postal" often have some legitimate beef with their former employers. They choose a second amendment solution rather than look for another job.

The vast majority of us, when fired do not go on murderous rampages, even if a trumped up case was created to fire us, let us go, lay us off, or whatever euphemism is used.

There was something wrong mentally with the man, as there has been with other 2nd amendment solution seekers.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:51 PM

24. Alex Lanza? ...nt

TYY

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:51 PM

25. Dude, you just have on/off switches. No dimmer, no granular dial...

 

Just OUTRAGE and Meh....

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Response to Taverner (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:20 PM

41. You're mistaken

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Response to Taverner (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:39 PM

100. Don't Stop The Outrage

 

It is hilarious!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:55 PM

27. You know, Rampart was real

not made up by Doner.

I know folks in LA... well before Doner went off, a traffic stop by an LAPD officer is NOT a prospect anybody should look forwards to.

If you cannot separate this matter, the extreme corruption in LAPD, and the need for DOJ to take a serious look from the psychosis. There is something rotten in LAPD, and this goes to well before Christopher Doner wrote his manifesto.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:05 PM

32. yes, and . . . ?

and Dorner counted on that history of the LAPD and ill will toward them to justify his murder spree. All it was was justification. A legitimate response to corruption and injustice is a law suit, not killing people, and certainly not the children of the police officer who defended him before the police review board.

What I see here is what I stated in the OP. You've fallen for his con job. Of course the LAPD is corrupt. But that has nothing to do with Dorner being a murderer. His killing spree shortly followed the second time he was passed over for promotion as a naval officer. That meant he was out of the navy. But he didn't point to racism in the military because no one would believe it. He knew the LAPD would provide a useful excuse for his actions that some would fall for.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:18 PM

37. I see, recognizing the issues

well before Doner became part of it is falling for the Con.

What other black and white world do you live in? This is really a fallacy, called a straw man.

I will have to conclude that you have no clue what you are talking about in this very particular case.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #37)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:21 PM

42. the issue is separate from Dorner's murder spree

not a justification and not a reason for it. It's unfortunate you see them as related.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #42)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:23 PM

43. The only thing related is that he mentioned well known

LAPD scandals, sorry you cannot see the tree in the forest.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #43)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:26 PM

45. and you repeat them

In a thread about his murders. You see them as a reason for his murder spree. I wonder if you'd feel the same if he had killed your family. Murder is never justified. Nor was it even a reason for his spree. He played on public animosity toward the LAPD so that people like you would excuse his murders.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #45)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:33 PM

47. What I am repeating is well known police scandals

One of them earned LAPD a DOJ investigation


The Rampart scandal refers to widespread corruption in the Community Resources Against Street Hoodlums (or CRASH) anti-gang unit of the Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD) Rampart Division in the late 1990s. More than 70 police officers either assigned to or associated with the Rampart CRASH unit were implicated in some form of misconduct, making it one of the most widespread cases of documented police misconduct in United States history. The convicted offenses include unprovoked shootings, unprovoked beatings, planting of false evidence, framing of suspects, stealing and dealing narcotics, bank robbery, perjury, and the covering up of evidence of these activities.

The Rampart Scandal is notable in popular culture because at least three LAPD officers implicated in the scandal were found to be on the payroll of hip-hop mogul Marion "Suge" Knight of Death Row Records, a convicted felon with known ties to the Bloods street gang. Moreover, LAPD investigators alleged Rampart CRASH officers Nino Durden, Rafael Pérez and David Mack were involved in the 1997 drive-by murder of recording artist Notorious B.I.G..

The Rampart investigation, based mainly on statements of the admitted corrupt officer (Pérez), initially implicated over 70 officers of wrongdoing. Of those officers, enough evidence was found to bring 58 before an internal administrative board. However, of the officers named by Pérez, only 24 were actually found to have committed any wrongdoing, with 12 given suspensions of various lengths, 7 forced to resign or retire, and 5 fired. As a result of the probe into falsified evidence and police perjury, 106 prior criminal convictions were overturned. The Rampart Scandal resulted in more than 140 civil lawsuits against the city of Los Angeles, costing the city an estimated $125 million in settlements.

Partly as a result of the scandal, Police Chief Bernard Parks was not rehired by Mayor James K. Hahn in 2001. Both the scandal and the de facto firing of Parks are believed to have precipitated Mayor Hahn's defeat by Antonio Villaraigosa in the 2005 election.
As of 2013 the full extent of Rampart corruption is not known, with several rape, murder and robbery investigations involving Rampart officers remaining unsolved.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampart_scandal

I guess Wikipedia and the Department of Justice were with Dorner when one had the entry written and the other did the investigation on the The CRASH unit.

I guess the scandal is a figment of our collective imaginations.

Reaad the bolded section with special interest. The Wiki Authors most have thought of Christopher Dorner, a yet to explode issue, when they wrote that section in particular.



Thetre is a lot of straw in that mind of yours, and a lot of black and white thinking.

LAPD needs to go under the DOJ magnifying glass AGAIN, and this is independent of the actions or lack of actions of Christopher Dorner.

Now go ahead and tell me why we were all were caught in the con again.

Let me repeat this. NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND wants to have ANY contact with the LAPD, there is a well earned hate and even fear of the Department. That includes people like me who not only live on the right side of the tracts, but 300 miles outside their jurisdiction. This started well before Christopher Doner was even in the radar, by a couple decades.

Now there is a pile of fresh straw for you o'er there!!!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #47)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:41 PM

52. I don't dispute that

the point is it has no relation to a spree killer. Get it?

I'm not saying the corruption isn't real. I'm saying your buying into Dorner's argument that his murder spree is about that is falling for a con. He left the LAPD in 2009. Now he goes on a killing spree? His being passed over for promotion in the navy was the trigger.

I don't understand why you find this so difficult to understand. Just because a murder invokes an excuse relating to actual events doesn't mean that his actions related to the justifications he gave the public.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #52)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:45 PM

55. what you are missing, by at least 8 light seconds





(the distance from Earth to the Sun) is that he brought this to the fore once again, and this is well mind you, independent of Doner, and that NOBODY JUSTIFIED HIS ACTIONS, except in your mind.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #55)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:59 PM

65. Why are you going on about police corruption then?

Why did you even raise that issue in this thread? That is exactly what his manifesto argued.

People have argued the real issue is police corruption, not murder. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364902

And people certainly have justified his actions. They have compared him favorably to Che Guevara! http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220398

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #65)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:58 PM

123. Cause I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I guess both DOJ and Wiki were in the con as well, before Christopher Doner was old enough to join the PD in the case of the DOJ.

Try it, ain't hard.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #55)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:08 PM

229. Wrong again.

For a journalist, you certainly are loose with the facts.

"8 light seconds...(the distance from Earth to the Sun)"

The average distance from the Earth to the Sun is 499.0 light-seconds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-second

So, just like your assertion that there are 60 cm in a meter, and the assertion that the US has 51 states, you are sadly mistaken.

Carry on!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #47)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:04 PM

226. "NOBODY IN THEIR RIGHT MIND wants to have ANY contact with the LAPD"

Unlike you, I live in LA and have plenty of contact with the LAPD.
In fact, I know my SLO for my neighborhood as well as a couple of officers.
Of course, I haven't shot any lately or broken any other laws, so maybe that's why I don't shake when I hear "LAPD".
Be nice if, for once, you knew what you were talking about.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #45)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:53 PM

60. You're confusing looking at reasons (motive) with justification...

As I posted, yesterday, in another thread:

When it comes to Terrorism, discussions of motive have been declared more or less taboo from the start because of the dishonest equation of motive discussions with justification—as though understanding the reasons why X happens is to posit that X is legitimate and justifiable. Causation simply is; it has nothing to do with issues of morality, blame, or justification. Yet all that is generally permitted to be said in such situations is that Terrorists try to harm us because they’re Evil, and we (of course) are not, and that’s generally the end of the discussion.

 Glenn Greenwald. “Cause and Effect in the Terror War” 12/29/09


Thinking he may have had a legitimate grievance in his manifesto is not the same as justifying his killing spree. I still think the LAPD should be investigated.

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Response to truth2power (Reply #60)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:05 PM

70. yet many here argue

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #70)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:05 PM

136. "Many here" is a known foxism

I would be careful with those.

I will add, the two f them spoke of well known issues with the LAPD. None justified Dorner shooting people up.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #37)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:58 PM

124. He's just a RW shitstirring troll, IMHO.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #124)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:00 PM

128. Nothing to do with being a troll, RW or otherwise,

Some people are simply not capable of seeing the forest for the trees. This is actually exhibit A.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #27)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:21 PM

86. I agree 100%, LAPD is a corrupt organization which abuses it's power and oath to the public.

When I first heard about the LAPD blasting away at two women in a truck that looked like Dorner's, I said to a co-worker that there was no way that Dorner would be taken alive, no way he would be alive to have more of his story become public.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:04 PM

30. WTF? I've followed the story on DU,

and I have not found anyone claiming Dorner was justified or a hero, nor has anyone claimed the ends justified his means.
What I have seen, is statements to the effect that his claims might be true, but his message lost by his actions. I have seen statements critical of LAPDs trigger-happy cops, who ambushed several innocent citizens without warning. I have seen statements critical of the cops for their eagerness to kill Dorner rather than capture him alive to stand trial...and while the cops action to eliminate him are somewhat understandable under the circumstances, those are still valid criticisms.
IOW, you are creating a straw-man argument, arguing against statements which DUers haven't been making.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #30)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:12 PM

34. Others in this thread have seen it

The mere fact that people point to corruption in the LAPD as a reason for Dorner's actions show they bought into his con game. They haven't said the cops actions were understandable. They've called them murder and vigilante justice. They insisted he should have been brought to trial, completely ignoring the fact he refused to surrender and therefore could not face trial. They ignored the fact that taking further action to try to take him alive would have resulted in many more deaths.

Some have even compared him to Che Guevara! http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220398

And of course the fact that the LAPD weren't in charge of yesterday's operation seems to have gone past most here. That was run by the San Bernardino Sheriff's office.

One thread that provides examples of this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364793

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #34)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:34 PM

48. BS. Corruption, racism, and excessive force have existed in LAPD for ages.

Its common knowledge...but no-one on DU has used that to justify Dorner's actions.
And it is not unreasonable to criticise SBSO for killing Dorner (if he didn't take his own life). We are, after all, a nation of laws...the accused has a right to a trial. It is understandable SBSO killed Dorner...he had already committed several murders, wounded others, held a couple hostage, and ended up in a gunfight with LEOS. I can certainly understand the decision to put an absolute stop to his murder spree by killing him then and there. However, it is not unreasonable to question that action. Its part of a post-event reflection when we ask "Could we have handled this better?", ... and " How should we handle a similar situation next time?".

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #48)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:49 PM

57. I agree with that latter point

but disagree that his spree was motivated by police corruption. Rather, pointing to police corruption was a justification for his desire to murder. The fact that the LAPD has been corrupt for ages doesn't mean that had anything to do with Dorner's murders. He left the LAPD in 2009 and began his killing spree last week after being turned down for promotion and losing his naval commission. He pointed to the LAPD because he knew it would curry favor with the public. Look who he killed. He killed the family of the man who defended him before the police review board. He wasn't targeting corrupt cops. He was a murderer who blamed the world for everything that happened to him.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #57)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:33 PM

95. I agree his motivation was revenge, not exposing corruption.

But that doesn't mean corruption, etc ,doesn't exist. Pointing that out isn't expressing support for Dorner or his actions.
I think the guy had paranoia. And I agree his claims of corruption were to justify his actions (in his mind) and to curry public sympathy. But that doesn't mean his claims are necessarily false, just that his motivation for making them was.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #95)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:38 PM

99. I agree with that

and have no issue with that position. But when people claim this whole event is not about murder but instead police corruption and that the LAPD caused his murder spree, that is presenting the issue quite differently.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #57)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:11 PM

231. You are absolutely right on this.

If I ever snap and decide to go on a killing spree, I must remember to leave a long, rambling manifesto pointing out how awful the LAPD is.
Or maybe I can say Obama's drone policy is what set me off...

And because I need sadly need to do this...

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Response to zappaman (Reply #231)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:17 PM

233. Thanks

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:19 PM

38. I dislike guns and violence and do not condone his actions. I DO know LAPD are a shit hole

 

and must be wiped. The two are not conflated. I appreciate the attention and pressure which have resulted upon LAPD as it is far past due (and who knows if real, actual change will result) because it is most desperately required but do not condone his ALLEGED acts.

What they did to him is part and parcel of the utterly reckless abuse they dole out on a regular basis. This is why LAPD must be changed:


Cal Fire News @CalFireNews

Are we all clear on this?:The man #Dorner was assumed guilty, tried by law enforcement, cornered & purposely burned alive?



Welcome to LA. Take my LAPD. Please!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #38)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:58 PM

63. If I had a heart

I'd give you one.

The whole thing is sad.

Dorner turned into a cold-blooded killer. He'll never get a trial, a judgment or a sentence.

LAPD breeds evil and brutality. Will what they do ever get a trial, a judgment or a sentence?

Neither is beyond fault, and both should be dissected and examined. Dorner told us why he went so bad. What's LAPD's excuse?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:43 PM

54. What on EARTH are you wittering on about


Who, WHO has "bought into his excuses"?

What is WRONG with this site? Certain people here seem to be congenitally incapable of responding to what is SAID.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #54)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:54 PM

62. everyone who thinks his murders are motivated by police corruption

and who continually raise the subject as though they are somehow related.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:01 PM

66. We need a thread like this to tell people to hate and not question?

Really? Sorry. No can do.

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Response to tblue (Reply #66)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:12 PM

72. what are you talking about?

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Response to tblue (Reply #66)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:13 PM

74. Tell that to the blind haters of police.

Who are cheering on Dorner, the mass murderer.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #74)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:14 PM

78. Where are the people here on DU cheering on Dorner the mass murderer?


Could you link to them for me, please?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #78)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:50 PM

113. I Want the Same Answer

 

Link to proof or apologize.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #113)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:51 PM

114. It never happens.


There aren't any.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #114)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:55 PM

120. The OP has 9 hidden posts

 

An ardent supporter here has 18. Not a typo 18.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #120)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:00 PM

126. I'm not surpirsed. Nothing but obfuscation.


Unimpressive.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #126)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:02 PM

130. But But But they are trying really hard

 

Really hard!

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Response to sibelian (Reply #126)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:14 PM

219. big NRA fan are you?

Yeah, you won't like me. I don't like guns, the death penalty, or muderers. I'm consistent that way.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #219)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:20 PM

245. You have my full permission to project onto me whatever values you may wish to assume.


I have no particular stake in your opinions of me.

As for my opinions of you, I do not intend to share them with you.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #120)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:25 PM

154. and?

what have I said here that violates TOS? If you have something to say to me, have the decency to say it directly rather than gossiping.

If you are a big supporter of gun rights, naturally you are going to like what I have to say. Too bad.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #154)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:15 PM

207. Gossiping? I've posted what I felt. Guns rights really?

 

You are over the top.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #207)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:04 PM

213. You didn't once post a response to me

You posted responses to others about me. Every single one of my hides has been to gunners and/ or about gun proliferation. As though the number of hides has any relevance to my point in the OP. Yes, you have chosen to gossip about me rather than address me directly.

You say you're waiting for links, when I've provided dozens in this thread, and you never bothered to ask me for any. As though it's my fault you can't be bothered to read through the responses or confront me directly. I certainly have my share of faults, and my transparency page provides evidence of them. But I have enough integrity to tell people what I think directly. I don't hide what I think or take indirect swipes at other members.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #213)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:07 PM

215. Did it occur to you I DID not want to talk with you?

 

There were and are others in the thread I wanted to converse with, you not so much.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #215)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:09 PM

216. No one forced you to enter this thread

You chose to take passive aggressive swipes. I didn't force you to do that. Nor did I force you to read the thread.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #216)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:11 PM

217. No one is forcing me to talk with you either

 

I am bored with you, plonk, welcome to ignore.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #217)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:13 PM

218. LOL

You just confirmed my assessment of you. Dealing with someone who disagrees with you is obviously too much for you to handle. You might have to formulate an actual argument.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #120)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:32 PM

249. that's one way to establish you have

nothing of substance to add to the conversation.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #74)


Response to Zoeisright (Reply #74)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:58 PM

125. go ahead and backup your bullshit accusations..

fucking do it.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #74)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:06 PM

139. Nobody is cheering him on. And YOU come live under LAPD and see how badly they

treat the people who pay their salaries and then try calling us "blind haters" to our faces. I've put up with their crap for 30 years and am, quite frankly, sick to death of it. And I'm a white middle class female medical professional. I can't even imagine how minorities feel.

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Response to Zoeisright (Reply #74)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:15 PM

148. I'd like an actual link to a post cheering on Dorner.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:02 PM

67. ...


Right.

So his own statements regarding his motives are too emotionally disturbing to be taken at face value?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:14 PM

76. why the five year delay?

Why did it correspond with his being denied promotion by the military? Why are you so intent on believing the writings of a deranged killer? Why should you put more credence in what he wrote than James Holmes?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #76)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:23 PM

88. What is going on in your brain?


"Why are you so intent on believing the writings of a deranged killer?"

What IS this? To whom are you speaking?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #88)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:26 PM

92. you are the one who insisted we believe Dorner's writings

is your contention that Dorner is not a deranged killer?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #92)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:40 PM

101. Do you believe, then, that he had other reasons for his actions? nt

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Response to sibelian (Reply #101)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:42 PM

103. the timing is instructive

the fact that he started killing shortly after being denied promotion tells that likely was the triggering event.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #103)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:44 PM

107. OK.


so you think "trigger" and "motive" are the same?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #107)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:36 PM

159. no, nor do I think justification and reason for acting are the same

You evidently do. Hence my OP.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #159)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:23 PM

246. "nor do I think justification and reason for acting are the same - you evidently do"


Fascinating hypothesis, what evidence do you have to support it?

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Response to sibelian (Reply #246)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:31 PM

248. the credence you place in the manifesto

as a reason for Dorner's actions.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #248)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:37 PM

252. So


because he believed it, I do, hm?

Do go on.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #252)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:46 PM

253. enough said

You choose to believe a psychopathic killer, and place credence in his reasons for his murder spree, completely ignoring the actually circumstances and timing. The fact that he started killing shortly after being denied promotion for the second time by the military and losing his naval commission. The fact that he had been deployed in war zones (that does mess with a person's head). The fact that his first victim was the daughter of his union rep who represented him before the police review board, the fact that he killed the family of the person who stood with him throughout his legal ordeal.

So yeah, you just confirmed you cannot tell the difference between justification and reason for actions.

And might I remind you, the man you are defending because you so hate police was also a cop.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #253)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 04:31 PM

255. "So yeah, you just confirmed you cannot tell the difference between justification and reason"


Once again, to whom are you speaking?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #253)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:30 PM

257. I think it might be worth your re-reading my original response to you.


You may note that I lament the apparent inability of people on this site to respond to what is SAID.

"You choose to believe a psychopathic killer"

Yes, I do, because there is no reason to suppose that because someone is "psychopathic" (or whatever emotionally laden and largely meaningless epithet you've chosen from your tense little armory of adjectives) that they are also a liar. Several times, incidentally, you assert that he is "psychopathic", despite apologising for using similar terms elsewhere. What do you mean by the term?

"and place credence in his reasons for his murder spree, completely ignoring the actually circumstances and timing."

No, I don't ignore the circumstances or the timing, nor have you any basis for assuming as much, nor do I regard them as being of any particular significance over his own statements to allow myself the luxury of ignoring the consequences of his statements for the LAPD.

"So yeah, you just confirmed you cannot tell the difference between justification and reason for actions"

It's very interesting that you say that, as my position is that it is perfectly possible to accept his explanation for his actions without their actually being morally justifiable. What do you mean when you say "you just confirmed you cannot tell the difference between justification and reason for actions"? How have I confirmed it? It should be perfectly clear to you from my question to you "So, because he believed it I do?" that I specifically do NOT believe that his actions were morally justifiable by his own statements of justification, despite my believing that HE believed his actions were thus justifiable.

It's very much as if you see my posts not as a response to your points but as a kind of emotional springboard from which to leap off into whatever flights of fancy you find appealing.

You certainly seem to think that you're contradicting me, but you're not, you're just talking past me.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:16 PM

80. have you read his letter? hvae you heard the other two policemen who came forward in the

middle of all this to say that his accusations ring true?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #62)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:03 PM

131. You've got screws loose if you don't see a relationship between Dorner's killing spree and

how he felt about his conflicts with LAPD over racism and ethics.

Do those problems justify his killing spree? NO. Absolutely NOT.

Do they partially explain it? Absolutely yes. He said as much.

You really need help with that inability to preceive shades of gray.

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Response to sibelian (Reply #54)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:37 PM

209. I think they understand, the OP particularly

What we have here is a campaign to either disassociate or plausibly ignore any issue the spree murderer mentioned.

These folks know good and well no one is supporting this guy, this is agenda and the agenda in part is not to question the government and to subdue any issue with state sanctioned violence.

Here is how it plays, they wail on the strawman that Dorner has a fan club (just like they do when they bust out the "sympathy for terrorist card) I guess under the twisted logic that acknowledging the issues in relation to the murderer is somewhere between sympathy and outright support. Next some will just drop Dorner from the discussion and focus on the issues but this will be declared "thinly veiled" support or some such thing. Then there will be gnashing of teeth between like 12 people in Meta, and they will start alerting and playing baby games on juries. Nothing will happen from this of significance but it will allow a wee bit of Lord of the Flies games and harden lines though the actual disagreement between the lines is nonexistent, no one supports the murderer at all.

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Response to TheKentuckian (Reply #209)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:24 PM

247. "plausibly ignore any issue the spree murderer mentioned"


I think you are perfectly correct. Many thanks.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:19 PM

82. ... and I would argue that you've fallen for the PR of the LAPD/police-authority complex.

Your agenda has been crystal clear from the outset of this whole sad drama.

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Response to Myrina (Reply #82)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:35 PM

193. I agree

I don't understand how one cannot be repulsed by the actions of Dorner yet find truth in his opinions of the LAPD. And that his killing spree, while triggered from his rejected application to the Navy, was also a pent up anger at the LAPD. Is it that difficult to hold more than one thought in one's head at the same time?

The OP still has not given any links to DUers posts praising Dormer. It is the same blind and false accusations of Fox News and Rush.
The world is not black and white, "with us or against us" extremes.

If I didn't know any better I'd think this OP was created specifically to incite a flame war with such a blatant Straw Man assumption of a mass murderer fan club existing on DU.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:19 PM

84. I wished I lived in your black-and-white world.

Ah, to be young again. I envy you.

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Response to egduj (Reply #84)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:24 PM

89. It's not black and white

That's my point. It is possible for several things to hold: LAPD is ripe with corruption; Dorner was on an unjustifiable murder spree; police may have behaved illegally in torching the cabin. All of these things can be true. And one need not believe Dorner's justifications for his murder spree to condemn LAPD corruption.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #89)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:20 PM

150. By your own logic you have fallen for Dorner's con

This is what people have been writing...so I welcome you with open arms.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #150)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:42 PM

162. I can't begin to understand

your "logic." You seem to find it impossible to hold more than one concept in your mind at a time. I have explained to you several times that I don't dispute the fact the LAPD is corrupt. So either you can't read or you choose not to understand. Either way, it advances the conversation no where.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #162)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:46 PM

164. You are right, but the straw men are getting taller and taller

I will wait, and never get, the link to a post that both defends Dorner, as you claim, and has fallen for the con.

Have a good day.

(And now having a third officer coming from the wood work confirming the claims...oh wait...they fell for the con too)

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #89)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:43 PM

198. One should believe or not believe, based on whether or not that handcuffed man was kicked

in the face and chest.

not based on personal emotions.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:25 PM

90. Just because one doesn't support street justice doesn't mean they support a maniac.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:29 PM

93. derpy derp derp..

has it occurred to you that it's:

A) conceivable to believe this guy was a crazy ass murdering mutherfucker.

AND

B) believe that the LAPD is corrupt and abusive, NOT based solely on dorner's word, but real life stories and experiences.

AND

C) show disgust and horror at the savage lust for blood displayed by the cops on the scene calling to "burn that mutherfucker out," as well as calling out other posters for their perceived lust for blood.

WHILE

D) not being accused of sympathizing or abetting the crazy ass murdering mutherfucker?

or is critical thinking and multitasking not your strong suit?

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Response to frylock (Reply #93)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:36 PM

98. Yes, actually

but there are a number of posters who don't seem to think that's possible. They insist the LAPD caused Dorner's murder spree. They seem unable to distinguish between cause and justification.

Some have even compared him favorably to Che Guevara. And yes, if you want I can provide links.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #98)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:44 PM

109. yes, please do compile a list of each individual poster that believes that..

I think you'll find that it's a handful of posters, and not the score of posters you want to believe are siding with him.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #98)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:07 PM

141. So you should post links, as people are asking you to do, because accusing with characterizations

is simply not acceptable. Link.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:43 PM

105. You just keep right on with that black and white thinking of yours - though it

WILL make anyone who is paying attention begin to wonder about your true intentions here on DU.......

Dorner did some VERY bad things and he paid the price. That doesn't mean that LAPD has clean hands in the racism/bad ethics department.

And that DOESN'T necessarily justify his extrajudicial killing.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #105)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:06 PM

140. I agree

I'm not the one intent on picking a good guy in this scenario. I'm not the one insisting the Obama administration staged this or the whole thing was "caused" by the LAPD.
I'm not engaging in black and white thinking. I'm commenting on what I see.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #140)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:52 PM

168. Links to each of these assertions please

Though for the record I had a young man today in real life compare this to WACO as a method to kill dissidents the evil Feds don't like. Yup, followed the tortured logic, it was just as jaw dropping.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #172)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:03 PM

173. One, that could pass hardly makes some, let alone

Many.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #173)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:05 AM

241. that's your response to every example

You've said it at least twice, while ignoring every other example. So I won't be surprised to see you claim the next ten examples you see are the "only one." Typical.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #140)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:03 PM

174. You either have an overactive imagination, or you have been punked by

trolls, then. DU has a few conspiracy theory nuts.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #174)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:08 PM

178. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2347592

There was an entire meta thread about it, and a couple popped up to defend the above OP. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220190

I provided links to the other points elsewhere in this thread.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:52 PM

116. Links to posters who think Dorner's lift was worth more, please. nt

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Response to RedCappedBandit (Reply #116)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:22 PM

152. this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364793

Here you see people insisting that the police should have brought Dorner in alive, that he should have stood trial, despite the fact he refused to surrender and was shooting that them. They don't say how many more cops they would have seen killed to bring about that result. They are entirely unconcerned with the police who would have died to bring out the resolution they think appropriate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364793

When I point out that the Dorner was killing the family members of police officers, I get responses like this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2366398

Firewalkwithme doesn't even see the murders as relevant. He says this entire issue is about police corruption. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022364844#post3
See responses throughout this thread.

Elsewhere I cited a link to someone else who said the LAPD "caused" Dorner's murder spree and to someone who compares Dorner with Che Guevara.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #152)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:39 PM

160. Theres so much wrong with your argument I almost don't know where to begin.

"Here you see people insisting that the police should have brought Dorner in alive, that he should have stood trial, despite the fact he refused to surrender and was shooting that them."

Thats HAD shot at them, not "was shooting at them. Morally (to those that aren't bloodthirsty vigilante justice seekers) and legally those are two different things. There was no shooting going on when the fire was lit. Facts matter. Well, to most of us anyway.

Your first link is to an entire thread.

Your second link is to an entire thread - the same one, in fact.

Your third link quotes a poster saying "We who live with the LAPD every day have LONG referred to them as gang members with badges." That statemnent does not exactly support dorner.

Firewalkwithme is right. It IS about police corruption.

The poster you mentioned that compared "Dorner with Che Guevara", actually didn't.

You are not making any successful arguments with this.



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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:04 PM

133. Links? nt.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #133)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:05 PM

134. I've provided links throughout this thread

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #134)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:07 PM

142. To this?:

"... and decided his life means more than those of all the people--civilian and police alike--that he killed."

Which link? I can't find one that contains this.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)


Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:12 PM

145. where are the links to the 'many' posts that you claim to have seen?

You make very precise, harsh accusations without providing links on a site that easily allows you to do so. Many posters have asked for those links. The fact that you do not provide them is damaging to whatever point you think you are making. Without the links it is just you doing some name calling.

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Response to Bluenorthwest (Reply #145)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:31 PM

155. I've provided links throughout this thread

Here is a post in which I site additional links:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2368790
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022367294#post65

Then there is the person who argued that the Obama administration staged the whole thing to justify their plans to spy on all Americans.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2347592

And a Meta thread where some defend that OP.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=220190

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #155)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:54 PM

202. Linking to entire threads where you agains just say 'some defend' is not what I asked for.

Your OP was exacting and specific, claimed many DUers saying things you can not back up. I find your tactics to be less than worthwhile.
I lived in LA, we called LAPD gang members with badges. That's just a fact. You cite that? Sorry you don't like it, but they are a gang with badges.
Where do you live? Sure is not in LA.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:25 PM

153. What about the lives of the civilians the cops gunned down

while trying to take Dorner dead or alive?

That just proves his point. Wer haven't really come that far since the shootout at the O.K. Corral.

P.S. The Newtown killer's name was Adam Lanza, not Alex.

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Response to KamaAina (Reply #153)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:49 PM

200. it is possible for the police to be corrupt

and use illegally excessive force and Dorner to still be a psychopathic killer. Evidence suggests both are true. What i object to is that you see police corruption as a reason for Dorner's murder spree. Your post here indicates as much. Am I mistaken?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #200)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:02 PM

205. Yes.

My attitude is "a pox on both their houses".

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:31 PM

156. ??? !!!

Last edited Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:16 AM - Edit history (1)

"Many here have bought into his excuses for going on a murdering spree and decided his life means more than those of all the people--civilian and police alike--that he killed."
......................................................

Two points here:

1.) If a DU member(s) has behaved in such a fashion wouldn't it be more efficacious, fair and pertinent to take it up with that member(s) directly?

2.) Your faulty reasoning demonstrates a logic error called "the fallacy of the excluded middle": either one is a doltish, ignorant, murderer-coddling sympathizer (possibly equally as psychopathic as Dorner himself) OR one is a smart, psychologically-astute moral exemplum of Homo superior who dismisses the (alleged) egregious wrongs done to Dorner as so much sick fantasy. Your argument is a binary, either/or proposition, devoid of nuance or shading. You have excluded the possibility that many thinking, functioning human beings capable of moral reasoning can decry Dorner's behavior while at the same time remain troubled by his allegations-- allegations that have been, in the main, verified as true and substantive by other witnesses in this case (rampant racism in the LAPD, police brutality, the humiliation and stress inflicted on Dorner by his fellow officers for having brought incidents of unwarranted and excessive police violence to light).
..........................................................

"You'll fallen for the PR of a psychotic killer."
..........................................................

Umm . . . No. See above.

...........................................................

"Too bad James Holmes or Alex Lanza didn't write manifestos. They might have fan clubs here as well."

............................................................

Non sequitur. (That does not follow.)

Inquiring into the motivation and triggering causes of those sick, sad souls who commit horrific acts is not to excuse or justify their actions. Understanding that the Treaty of Versailles inflamed German nationalism by saddling the defeated powers with the entire costs and blame for the war does not mean that one seeks to excuse or otherwise minimize Nazi atrocities in the war that followed. Learning that John Wilkes Booth came out of a certain Southern tradition and vehemently-hostile anti-Union social set and setting doesn't mean one applauds his assassination of President Lincoln in the particular or US presidents in general. And saying that Dorner's case raises troubling red flags concerning systemic and continuing police brutality, open racism and a culture of intimidation and cover-up is NOT the same as excusing or applauding the homicidal, anti-gay, misogynistic and paranoid narcissism of this deeply troubled (now dead) human being.





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Response to cer7711 (Reply #156)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:23 PM

185. I have taken it up with them

Murderers are murderers. None are superior to the other. That some buy into one's argument doesn't make his victims any less dead.

Many here have fallen for the PR. Some respond to every thread about Dorner by talking about corruption in the LAPD, as though that explains Dorner's actions. This thread itself is replete with such examples.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:15 PM

180. I think he actually believed his delusions

People in his past have said that not only was he extremely paranoid but that he'd get some wild theory out of the blue stuck in his head and become obsessed by it. For example, when that guy that used to work with him in the Navy talked about how he suddenly came up with a wild idea that some other sailor didn't actually earn one of the medals or ribbons or patches or whatever that he had on his uniform and became totally obsessed by it even breaking into the guy's personnel file.

Dorner had a long history of what I'd guess would be called paranoid delusions, and I think he actually truly believed the various fantasies his mind manufactured.

Anyone reading that manifesto should have noticed that he was a seriously disturbed person that was extremely dangerous. But for some reason here so many people only focused on his stories of corruption and though the entire thing was clearly written by a very dangerous and very mentally disturbed individual his accusations were taken as gospel truth. Though I have no doubt that there is corruption within LAPD, I'm not inclined to believe the accusations of someone who was so obviously a paranoid and vicious deranged person.


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #180)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:34 PM

208. How about two other ex officers

Laying the same charges in the last 72 hours? Since they have not gone off and shot up the neighborhood will they get a better hearing? I personally doubt it.

I find it troubling that people believe that actually seeing the very real corruption in LAPD somehow makes them supporters of Chris Dorner. Some of us, it seems a few, can chew gum and walk at the same time.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:21 PM

184. Now we won't truly know anything.

There now will be no trial to hear all parts. We will not be able to see everything that would be brought forward on both sides so we get a clear view of all things. One part of the story is gone. Add to it the way the much iffiness due to that manifesto, the way the LAPD has so much iffiness on what and how they told the public, the (sadly) unreliable reporting due to all the news agencies wanting to be first with all the breaking news, we will never have all the facts that a court trial would shine light on.

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Response to Lady Freedom Returns (Reply #184)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:31 PM

188. that's true

That is what Clint Van Zant was saying on MSNBC last night during Hardball in an effort to convince Dorner to surrender. He was saying Dorner's story would never be understood if he didn't turn himself in. And yes, we can't be sure of what the LAPD or, in this case, the San Bernardino Sheriff's dept (who was actually in control of yesterday's siege) says about the incident.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:41 PM

196. 192 posts; 32 recs...

I'd say there is another successful con game going on at the moment as well...

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:43 PM

197. What's the evidence that he was psychotic?

and who diagnosed that?

I suspect Dorner wasn't psychotic, but suffered from an unusual form of adjustment disorder that turns on dysfunctional sensitivity to a crisis of identity and seeks relief by mitigating unfairness.

You might consider googling 'post-traumatic embitterment' to get one, perhaps not THE one, alternative to considering Dorner psychotic.


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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #197)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:43 PM

199. If I wrote psychotic, that was in error

I meant psychopathic. I apologize.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #197)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:06 PM

206. goggled it. interesting. makes sense.

There is a story that he found 8,000 and returned it and was honest to a t. If that was a big part of his identity, very easy for that belief to come into strong conflict with the real world.

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #197)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:16 PM

220. he clearly wasn't psychotic

His crimes were too carefully planned. A psychotic person would not have been able to evade capture for so long. Not that I'm a profiler, but my original word choice was an unintentional mistake. Quite a bad one actually.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:14 PM

212. We aren't fucking morons

In fact, we're quite capable of recognizing both of these things at the same time:

-The LAPD has a long history of corruption and is seeking to execute Dorner without trial - which screams "cover up".
-Dorner has become an evil bastard and needed to face trial for his evil deeds.

Believing the first doesn't mean the 2nd must be false. Nor does believing the second make the first false.

We aren't as stupid as Republicans. We are capable of nuance.

Are you?

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #212)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:06 PM

214. yes and I have said so repeatedly

in this thread and elsewhere, as well as in the OP. Some people are not as smart as you give them credit for.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #214)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:26 PM

235. Some people blow goats

Literally. Kneel on down and blow goats.

Who? Oh, some people. I'm just going to assert they exist without any evidence. It'll form a great strawman for me to attack.

Sound familiar?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:59 PM

225. For those looking for examples of my point in the OP

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:04 PM

227. Dorner was a mentally ill man with a grudge, not a con. It wasn't a game to him.

He murdered people, and nothing can excuse those actions. On the other hand, having watched cops in action, he inevitably had a point. And yes, he was burned to death deliberately, and there is no way he was going to be allowed to give himself up. And yes, he knew that too.

Can we just give up on beating this particular thoroughly dead horse and go back to the state of the union or something?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:09 PM

230. He brought more attention to how corrupt the LAPD is.

As far as his so called con game working, I don't see many people as you claim saying he was justified in his murders. There might be a FEW, but not many when compared the the number of members commenting in these threads. Most people that I see commenting recognize the difference between his reasoning and whether he was justified a FEW do not.

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Response to Incitatus (Reply #230)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:17 PM

232. One difference I see

Is if someone said the Dorner incident points to the problems in the LAPD, rather than the problems in the LAPD CAUSED Dorner to act or EXPLAINS his actions. I guess it depends on how many we mean by many or a few DU members, but enough to notice seem to think the main issue seems to be about LAPD corruption rather than his desire to kill. I find it interesting that people are very keen to understand this particular murderers psyche and not Adam Lanza or James Holmes. Murders are murderers. Lanza was particularly egregious because he targeted children, but Dorner also justified liking children and likely would have done so given the opportunity. The very fact that people are so interested in understanding his motivates tells me his manifesto was effective. And I call that manifesto a con job because it sought to justify his murder spree.

Now, I'm all for addressing police corruption. I myself live in a city with a notoriously bad police force. But I don't like to see it tied to an explanation for murder.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:26 PM

236. Dorner killed innocent people.

No justification for that.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:50 PM

237. Yet another example

I've provided several such examples. Tell me again how no DUers buy into Doner's manifesto and justify his actions?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=398727


"I believe him when he says that he was ruined and cast out by an evil, untrustworthy system, and he then chose to fight it on his own terms. When state corruption and militarized disorder are the standards, retributive justice gets labeled terrorism and subversive."

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #237)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:45 PM

238. Still beating the same old dead horse; find something else to get your knickers twisted over.

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Response to PDJane (Reply #238)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:48 PM

239. You ask for evidence

and then get angry when it's provided. Why worry about a few dead people. It's not like their lives matter to you.

Perhaps you should find something better to do than making cheap, sexist insults.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #239)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:19 PM

240. Nope. I didn't ask for evidence.

I said nothing sexist, nor did I say the dead people don't matter. In fact, over and over I've said the opposite. However, I did say that the LAPD did not give this chance a man to live, nor did they intend to. I don't glorify violence, on either side of the divide. I also didn't ask for 'evidence' of anything.

I did say that I'm tired of the whole situation. Someone is dead in a deliberately set fire, and that's evidence. That it might or might not have been Dorner is also true, although it is likely to have been Dorner. Yeah, there are all kinds of nuances, but no matter what 'evidence' you have provided for a question I didn't ask, there's a bunch of evidence that proves that the LAPD was determined to kill him, no matter what. There was not likely to be any justice anywhere in the situation, so can we please talk about something that might provide something else to think about?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 02:51 AM

242. I agree but there are also many prejudices at work here.

There are a number of DUers who really, really hate anything law enforcement. Mind you I'm not talking about the rational distrust-I'm talking folks who wish cops dead. Those are the people who will always defend the target of police actions no matter what.

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Response to great white snark (Reply #242)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:19 AM

243. yes, I had not previously been aware of that

Before this event. Then they insist I'm imagining it all, which seems to be a common response when people don't agree with your personal assessment of some of the opinions on the site. One maintains that argument, insisting there is no evidence Dorner killed anyone, while he has decided the police who pursued the fugitive are murders. Dorner should have been put on trial, but he just KNOWS all police lie and kill for the hell of it.

I'm not saying there aren't plenty of corrupt police. But I see no reason to make such blanket proclamations in this particular case without evidence. Police perform a vital function. Without them there would be vigilantes running around killing people all the time, complete lawlessness.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:34 PM

251. Actually, James Holmes does have a fan club.

Google, "Holmies."

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Response to Fawke Em (Reply #251)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:47 PM

254. on DU?

Because Dorner has a whole contingent here. Charles Manson has a fan club too. There are always nuts that support killer. Dorner, however, wrote a manifesto that convinced more than most killers succeed in doing.

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