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Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:54 PM

Torching the cabin was wrong.

That's my conclusion.

No, I'm not law enforcement. Obviously I wasn't there, but I think it was wrong on so many levels. I don't see how Dorner, once trapped in the cabin and surrounded, posed any threat. He couldn't possibly have had a rocket launcher, for example. He'd fled from the stolen vehicle on foot.

It was wrong from a PR perspective. Killing him under these circumstances will add a lot of weight in the minds of some, that law enforcement, specifically the LAPD, were trying to make sure that he didn't have a chance to ever speak again.

It was wrong from a moral perspective to kill him if he didn't pose a threat.

I believe that Dornan was a sick murderer bent on causing pain to those whom he believed wronged him. I don't buy that he was "pushed" into becoming a murderer by the LAPD even if his claims are all 100% factual, but that doesn't make what law enforcement did yesterday at that cabin, justifiable.

The details are odd. They pulled down all four walls of the cabin prior to the fire, so why did they lob the tear gas.

<snip>

A law enforcement source told the Times officers broke windows, fired tear gas and called to Dorner, the ex-Los Angeles police officer wanted for a total of four slayings and the wounding of three law enforcement officers, to surrender. The source said police used equipment to pull down the cabin walls "one by one, like peeling an onion" when Dorner failed to answer, and heard a single gunshot as they got to the last wall.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2013/02/12/LAPD-Burned-cabin-not-yet-entered/UPI-44271360645500
/#ixzz2KnpSwAL0

My guess is Dorner was already dead when they fired off the teargas.

Dorner wanted to go out this way. Law Enforcement on the scene, evidently wanted the same thing.


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Reply Torching the cabin was wrong. (Original post)
cali Feb 2013 OP
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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:58 PM

1. I'd say anyone who's killed multiple

people and responds to the cops by firing at them poses a pretty imminent threat.

He was a threat and IMO got exactly what he deserved.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:11 PM

14. They had acheived containment, but had no patience.

I can't say whether with darkness coming on if the commander on scene felt that nightfall would change that. With the cabin surrounded and night-vision technology available it seems questionable.

IMO, society didn't get what it deserved. Death by cop is undesirable, destruction of property is undesirable if it can be avoided. We'll never know if it could have been avoided because the police decided to launch devices into the building that
according to recorded conversation were part of a plan to burn the building down.


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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:22 PM

136. why would they have patience? for what reason? patience? really?

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #136)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:07 PM

177. who needs the rule of law? it's so archaic..

we should burn ALL the mutherfuckers out.

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Response to frylock (Reply #177)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:12 PM

183. No. I dont mean that. But we all suspected he would not be arrested alive.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #183)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:18 PM

192. You're right.

 

He made it very clear that he had not intention of being taken alive by his actions and his manifesto.

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Response to Light House (Reply #192)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:54 PM

235. And law enforcement made it perfectly clear with their first ambush on a citizen

that he wouldn't be.

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #235)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:02 PM

239. Dorner could have, during his week while on the run,

 

contacted a lawyer, media personell, and any number of people to escort him to any police station, didn't have to be an LAPD station, could have been any police dept. station, and surrendered himself with all the witness's present.
Instead, he CHOSE the course of action, he CHOSE not to surrender, he CHOSE to shoot it out with police and in the process, he killed 2 police officers and 2 civilians.
Dorner is responsible for Dorner being killed.

As far as what those LAPD officers did to the innocent civilians, those officers should be punished severely and Los Angeles should pay a hefty settlement.

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Response to Light House (Reply #239)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:12 PM

244. C'mon, they're all members of the same damn club

Certainly he is responsible. But that doesn't negate the proven fact that the authorities were never going to let him walk out alive. You really think that you can make me believe that the authorities would give a shit about the people with him? Hell, they didn't give a shit about shooting up people that weren't with him. There were two women in that truck! What if it been Dorner and an attorney going to turn himself in?

They wanted to kill the cop killer, they wanted to kill him bad and they did!

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #244)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:17 PM

248. Oh really?

 

They were going to shoot or kill him in the police station? C'mon, be realistic, with all the intense scrutiny on this incident, the police wouldn't dare try anything. Especially with all the witness's saying that he surrendered himself to the proper authorities.

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Response to Light House (Reply #248)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:30 PM

250. he never would have made it to any police station

you and I both know that. Like I said, there were two women in that truck. There were witnesses. It didn't stop anyone from shooting up the truck nor the other car they ambushed. Those two women wern't shooting at the police when they were fired upon, their vehicle just vaguely fit the description. There was no attempt to cut them off, pull them over or order them out of the car. I believe it was something like 60 bullets that were fired into the truck from behind. That alone shows what law enforcement's intent was.

Judge, jury and executioner is the role law enforcement played in this tragedy and that makes me uncomfortable in a country where I was taught that people are supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law



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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #250)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:36 PM

253. What do you mean he wouldn't have made it to any police station?

 

You're telling me that a man as resourceful as Dorner was couldn't figure out a way to make it to a police station?
If he made it his intention of surrendering himself and with a lawyer and media personel in tow, the police wouldn't dare try to anything, especially if he just showed up unannounced with an entourage of witness's.
It really doesn't matter, Dorner had NO INTENTION of giving up, his intention was to kill as many of the people listed on his manifesto as he could before they took him down.

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Response to Light House (Reply #253)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:45 PM

254. I think you give him too much credit

I think if he were really resourceful or smart, he would have killed many more than he did. I'm sure he had no intention of giving up. However, I'm just as certain that the authorities were never going to allow it either.

on edit.

you know, it's sad that I don't know what is worse. Someone driven by perhaps mental illness and feeling so much dispair and hopelessness that their life or anyone else's life any longer has value and commits such an atrocity or by those who are driven to kill by vengence.

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Response to notadmblnd (Reply #254)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:51 PM

255. You may very well be right about the police never allowing him to surrender,

 

but if he had contacted a lawyer and the media to accompany him to a police station of his choosing, and if they had hidden him until they arrived at the station, then he would have been arrested and would have his day in court.

Instead, he CHOSE to go out in a, pardon the pun, blaze of glory while trying to take as many officers with him as he could.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #136)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:00 PM

210. In the interest of the concept of minimal damage if nothing else

Police forces are NOT judge, jury and executioner, and we would be making the mistake of the millenium to grant them such powers.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:39 PM

41. Exactly - they could have waited him out.

He was surrounded, all they had to do was cut off power & water, give him the opportunity to surrender.

I guess they weren't patient enough for that - burners were quicker...

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #41)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:14 PM

73. This guy wasn't going to surrender

he had multiple chances to do so after murdering his first victim.

Kind of sad to lose the cabin though.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #73)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:21 PM

135. He would have surrendered, or killed himself eventually.

That solution is preferable to the one Law Enforcement chose yesterday,

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #73)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:41 PM

226. He was trapped in the cabin, and they had control over his water supply.

Really not that hard to wait him out. The guy still needed to eat and drink.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #41)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:35 PM

148. You do know that the word burner

 

is slang for tear gas? It's because the tear gas burns the mucous membrane, the eyes and the nose, not because it's used to start fires.

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Response to Light House (Reply #148)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:02 PM

173. There are different types of teargas cannisters.

Some of them are "cold", specifically, the ones intended to be used indoors.

The ones the LAPD used on Dorner are "hot" - they release CS gas pyrotechnically, and should not be used indoors where they have a tendency to start fires. They literally burn, and it looks like these cannisters burned that cabin down. And that probably has something to do with the nickname "burner".

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #173)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:07 PM

176. You are exactly right.

 

I just get a little irritated at people here who think that the word burner means that the police fired cannisters that were designed to start fires.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #173)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:11 PM

182. I don't think it was the LAPD that lobbed the teargas in.

Maybe they didn't have the other variety on hand, for whatever reason. Or maybe they didn't expect the cabin to go up as readily as it did. I don't know.

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Response to randome (Reply #182)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:13 PM

186. If it wasn't LAPD, who was it?

FBI was on the scene, but I'm going from what I heard from the recordings of the police radio traffic, which sounded like LAPD to me. "Burners are in place." "Burn the motherfucker!" That sort of thing.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #186)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:15 PM

188. The area is not in Los Angeles, or La County. It is east of LA. another city. in another county.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #186)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:19 PM

193. 'Burners' is another term for 'incendiary teargas canisters'.

(Can't believe how many times I've posted that.)

And as RobinLynne pointed out, LAPD wasn't even there.

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Response to randome (Reply #193)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:22 PM

197. I know that.

The question is whether the law enforcement on-scene deliberately used the incendiary properties of their teargas canisters. I think it likely.

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Response to randome (Reply #193)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:35 PM

203. Oh, I thought they were making room for these folks to come in....



Lob a few of THOSE burners into the house, and the results would have been... strange, to say the least.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #203)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:46 PM

207. what is the story behind this photo?

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #207)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:48 PM

208. Behind that photo is the other side of your monitor screen


What story are you looking for?

You can connect with them and ask directly, I suppose.

http://www.burningman.com/blackrockcity_yearround/connectwithburners.html

Connect With Burners

There are myriad ways to connect with other Burners around the world, throughout the year ... whether in person, or online.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #208)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:50 PM

209. ahh. burning man. I did not get the reference.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #186)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:21 PM

195. San Bernardino County Sheriffs Dept.,

 

along with the U.S Marshals Service and the FBI were there. It was probably a joint decision and operation.

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Response to Light House (Reply #195)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:45 PM

205. Fair answer. n/t

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Response to randome (Reply #182)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:14 PM

187. LAPD werent there. San Bernardino Sheriffs were there.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:01 PM

238. The police don't get to convict people for murder

That's the court's job.

Yes, there was very strong evidence that Dorner was the killer, but until he had his day in court, he was innocent until proven guilty. I know it sucks to hear that, but that's how our justice system works.

As with every suspect for every crime, the police had the responsibility to take Dorner alive, if possible. They chose not to wait him out and let him surrender peacefully, but instead attacked the structure with incendiary tear gas.

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Response to tinrobot (Reply #238)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:26 AM

268. He had multiple chances to surrender

he refused, he kept shooting at anything that moved, he shot himself instead of leaving the cabin.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #268)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 10:47 AM

272. We don't know the cause of death

All we know is that there is a charred body that has yet to be identified.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:33 PM

251. NO

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Justice should be served.

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Response to sharp_stick (Reply #1)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:47 PM

294. He was contained and he was imminent threat out in the middle of nowhere?

All they needed to do was wait him out.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:58 PM

2. "My guess is Dorner was already dead when they fired off the teargas."

The guy with the short straw gets to go check?

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:03 PM

8. Not the short straw

the guy who's either two days away from retirement or the recent widower taking care of 6 foster kids.

Don't you watch movies man.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:14 PM

17. why not just hold off on drastic action?

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Response to cali (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:18 PM

21. Until the dead guy comes out?


That's a pretty long wait.

The guy couldn't possibly set booby traps or have other surprises.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:20 PM

27. They'd already torn down the walls of the cabin

booby trapping seems exceedingly far fetched given the circumstances and time line. Waiting a few hours or few days hardly seems as onerous as you're trying to make it.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:18 PM

128. Yeah, they don't have robots for stuff like that or anything.

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Response to beevul (Reply #128)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:18 PM

129. Those are more limited than you apparently think

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #129)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:40 PM

154. So, explain, how limited are they?

Do they not have cameras on them?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:59 PM

3. Shit, there was someone here the other day asking if Dorner deserved trial...

So you can bet your petunias that if there are folks among us at DU who feel death without a jury is acceptable that law enforcement was not going to lose sleep if they took Dorner dead.

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:52 PM

57. But...but...he's an EEEEVILDOER!!!!!

 

I can see nothing but good and evil, black and white...


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Response to Earth_First (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:07 PM

123. I doubt too many people associated with those he murdered are going to lose sleep over this

if he is dead

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Response to Earth_First (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:29 PM

142. He deserved atrial like anyone else

But if he will not surrender, then what?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:00 PM

4. It's not clear that the authorities torched the cabin

It may have been Dorner who torched it and then shot himself.

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Response to NV Whino (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:12 PM

15. Or indirectly started by the tear gas canister exploding. n/t

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Response to NV Whino (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:45 PM

45. I think they used some kind of incendiary device

the way they were talking about burning. They had the armored vehicle already bashing walls. He didn't come out so they went to Plan B. "Burn"... and then he shot himself.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #45)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:54 PM

59. Damn Skippy. nt

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Response to MrScorpio (Reply #59)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:09 PM

178. We agree

on the modus operandi...

Sad scenario.

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Response to NV Whino (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:07 PM

67. There is video of them saying they were going to torch the cabin and burn the MF out.

It was posted here several times yesterday.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:47 PM

113. We can't KNOW that! Even though they said they were going to, and then it happened. And there's

video of it.

WHO KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED?

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Response to NV Whino (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:24 PM

81. Or shot himself, then set the....

Oh, wait...

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Response to NV Whino (Reply #4)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:11 PM

278. What do you mean it's not clear who torched the cabin?

Of course it is clear, CNN has footage which I heard myself of officers yelling to "torch him" just moments before they shot the canisters into the cabin. How much clearer does it need to be? The spokesman for the police said they did not torch the cabin on purpose, which is another way of saying, they did in fact torch the cabin just not intentionally.

The police played judge, jury, and executioner. The police murdered Dorner.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:00 PM

5. Torching the cabin is one thing...

as it seems to be modus operandi for our enforcement agencies, but for an organization that is already considered racist, brutal, sexist and corrupt by many, saying, "Let's burn that motherfucker down", etc was an extremely poor choice of words. People are excusing it, but these are trained law enforcement officers who should damn well know better.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:00 PM

6. They intentionally burned the cabin?

Do you have a link for that?

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Response to Ohio Joe (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:43 PM

215. There are several threads from yesterday with video of them in the background

speaking of burning the MF out and of the "burn plan". If I feel better later I will see if I can dig up the links for you.

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Response to Mojorabbit (Reply #215)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:00 PM

237. Are these the threads you meant?

Cops Torch Cabin Where Christopher Dorner Was Held Up
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101798582


Here's video of police shouting "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" as Dorner was trapped.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364793

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Response to Ohio Joe (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:18 PM

219. Here is a thread I just ran across

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022370689 but is not the couple of different ones posted here yesterday

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Response to Ohio Joe (Reply #6)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:50 PM

233. There are two or more links to the scanner traffic audio...




And in this thread posted by "RetroGamer1971":

Here's video of police shouting "burn that motherfucker" and "burn him out" as Dorner was trapped.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2364793

Post #340
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2369698

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Response to countryjake (Reply #233)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:18 PM

279. Thank you for posting this.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:02 PM

7. I think the

police had a pretty legitimate reason for torching that cabin

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Response to Dpm12 (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:30 PM

36. Reason? Yes. Legitimate? That's pushing the issue.

"Legitimate" is one of those frequently misused words. It's like "literally," used in a construction like "She literally chewed my head off."

--imm

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Response to Dpm12 (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:48 PM

48. Yeah, who cares about due process. nt

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Response to Dpm12 (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:24 PM

79. No, they didn't. They had a legitimate reason to tear gas the guy.

They also had a legitimate reason to sit tight and wait him out.

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Response to Dpm12 (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:12 PM

184. lemme guess. you're white middle class without a care in the world..

I bet those cops in fullerton had a pretty legitimate reason to kill that homeless guy too, right sport?

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:05 PM

9. I don't think there's any question they wanted to summarily execute him if given the opportunity

That was obvious when the cops were opening fire on innocent people thinking it was him. Is it wrong? Well if he's firing at police, then it's not wrong IMO. But the innocent people who were shot were just going about their business and obviously weren't firing at cops.

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:50 PM

52. That was a BIG mistake. Reno 911 comes to mind.

Which they will answer to.

They DID have the justification to execute him because they were dealing with a random mass murderer.

But Good God--they looked like Reno 911 re. those poor women who got shot...

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:05 PM

10. Well said cali.

I agree that he was a sick murderer and I also agree that LAPD wanted him silenced, not captured. I see nothing heroic in his actions, I see even less heroism on the part of the LAPD.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:14 PM

18. +1000.

 

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:16 PM

19. I don't even think it was the LAPD that made the decision, was it?

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Response to randome (Reply #19)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:19 PM

23. Perhaps not...but you can be sure they influenced it. n/t

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:28 PM

90. This was NOT LAPD!!

Big Bear is in San Bernadino County and is miles from LA. LAPD have no jurisdiction there.

These guys were local/county LE, not LAPD.

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Response to longship (Reply #90)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:30 PM

92. And you think LAPD has no influence there?

You may be correct, but I think LE always covers for its own.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #92)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:33 PM

94. Repeat. Not LAPD. nt

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Response to longship (Reply #94)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:40 PM

102. Right.

 

It was the San Bernardino Sheriff's Dept,. in conjunction with the U.S. Marshal's Service and FBI, that made to the decision for the tactical op.

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Response to longship (Reply #94)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:50 PM

117. Okay...so CA

is full of immoral police departments....better?

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #117)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:06 PM

122. The use of deadly force was appropriate.

This guy shot two cops that day.

Now, would I have set fire to the cabin? No!! But I wasn't there and know nothing about the situation. And neither was anybody else on this forum. He could have planted booby traps, for example.

Plus, there is circumstantial evidence that he shot himself before the fire got going, according to reports.

I have no idea why they chose to set the cabin on fire, or even if they did it deliberately. The info is a bit fuzzy.

Do I wish they hadn't burned the place down? You betcha! But I wasn't standing there where I could influence the decision.

But these questions should be asked in the coming days, which I guess is kind of what your post is saying. I would support that.

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Response to longship (Reply #122)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:20 PM

133. We disagree on

the use of deadly force being appropriate. We don't yet know if he was firing on LE from the cabin. Besides, I have no problem with the police simply resorting to old siege warfare tactics. The cabin was surrounded, he wasn't going to escape...starve him out or let him shoot himself. Had he come out firing, deadly force would have been appropriate, but I have a problem with the bullying tactics of our police, our military and our government. We have more weapons, more bombs, more drones and we are happy to use them. I have a real problem with the LAPD opening fire on two women who were merely delivering newspapers.

Was he a threat? Well, he had been but I don't know what real threat he presented trapped in a cabin and we'll never know what might have come out in a trial will we? IMHO there was never any intention of taking him alive and that doesn't speak well of our LE or our own national morality.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #133)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:36 PM

149. "We don't yet know if he was firing on LE from the cabin."

Do you mean other than the two shot police officers?

To say nothing of the other murders.

If this guy doesn't surrender, and keeps shooting at cops, he's going to get himself killed. Plain and simple.

That's what happened from all reports at the scene at the time. We even have a DUer up there who was posting yesterday afternoon about it as it went down. I was following two threads about it.

All of us on those threads agreed that Dorner would not be coming out of this alive.

Plus, there is circumstantial evidence that he shot himself before the fire got going.

But I do wish they hadn't set the cabin on fire. I can't see that it was necessary.

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Response to longship (Reply #149)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:44 PM

158. They were shot before he got to this cabin, I believe....

This was the second cabin he broke into. I'm not saying he could have been taken alive...I am just saying I don't believe the police had any intention of doing so. The way it played out, tearing down the cabin walls, using tear gas and then burning down the cabin.... You're absolutely correct in wishing they hadn't done that...but what better way to destroy any evidence he might have had that his accusations were true...Which is NOT to say I think that would justify his killing spree...it doesn't.

Had the police settled in for a siege he could have fired all the rounds he wanted, without injuring anyone.

How cavalierly all of you accept the death of another human being.

All of us on those threads agreed that Dorner would not be coming out of this alive.


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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #158)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:10 PM

180. It's the rules of engagement of which Dorner was aware.

He, above all people, knew what shooting at LE would get him. He knew where this would end.

Of course, I regret his life being taken. I am not a heartless bastard. But being taken alive was a choice he could have made. He didn't.

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Response to longship (Reply #180)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:20 PM

194. All the more reason to not burn down the cabin...

Look, Dorner was clearly deranged. And, I am not as certain as you that Dorner believed he had any chance of being taken alive.

I apologize, I did not mean to imply you are heartless. I am simply frustrated with a society that seems to think force is always the answer....no wonder the NRA thinks they can continue being as absurd about gun violence as they are.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #194)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:27 PM

198. It all comes down to the fact that Dorner

 

started this whole tragic incident by murdering 2 innocent people, shooting 2 Riverside police officers, killing one, car jackings, shooting at Fish and Game Wardens, shooting 2 SBCSD deputies, killing one and then exchanging gunfire with the officers surrounding the cabin and refusing to give up.
This whole incident really had only one ending and Dorner had no intention of it ending any other way.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #194)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:32 PM

200. No apology necessary.

I took your statements as respectful, and your disdains as non-personal. Otherwise, I would not have responded.

We are basically on the same page here.

My point was that Dorner was a cop. He knew exactly how the police would act when he shot at cops. Any cop would know that.

If you shoot at a cop, they're gonna shoot back. If you die in such an exchange, the cop will very likely not be charged with a crime.

Like it or not, those are the rules.

If a person could change that, they could probably also find a way to world peace.

Thanks for the discussion.

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Response to Sekhmets Daughter (Reply #194)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:32 PM

201. "seems to think force is always the answer"


I don't think anyone believes "force is always the answer."

As I've noted, if it was up to me... I don't even support the death penalty.

But if we are going to talk about things like "due process" and "Constitutional rights", Dorner was not some borderline case - there was probable cause to believe he was off the charts dangerous, had a demonstrated propensity to kill, and was well within the Constitutional boundaries of deadly force within the Constitutional limits, such as they stand.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #201)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 05:13 PM

212. Oh, I think there are many who do...

I'm not concerned with constitutional rights or due process...our revered constitution is a highly immoral document, it took several amendments to bring about a what little morality it contains.

I am completely frustrated with the way this was carried out. And if I've learned nothing else in my 65 years, I have learned that you can never trust the authoritarians to give you the full story.

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Response to longship (Reply #180)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 03:31 PM

282. Tell the 4 people whom the LAPD almost killed in the previous days about the rules of engagement.

The LAPD showed no respect for rules or laws in their haste to murder Dorner, they had absolutely zero intention of taking him alive no matter the circumstances. They have shut the mouth of someone who knew them from the inside, someone who tried to expose them.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #282)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:50 PM

296. The LAPD had nothing to do with Big Bear.

That was San Bernardino County Sheriffs with help from US Marshalls and FBI at Big Bear. Big Bear is miles and miles from LA and is way out of LAPD jurisdiction.

Two paper deliverers were in Torrance, CA. AFAIK, that's also out of LA jurisdiction. About 20 miles from LA. Can somebody verify if that was Torrance LE, not LA?

Why do people think Los Angeles is all of Southern California? I guess when they want to blame the LAPD for anything that goes wrong with LE in SoCal.

Just some fact checking for you. No offense intended.

I would welcome correction if I am mistaken. But I am sure LAPD were not at Big Bear.

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Response to longship (Reply #296)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:53 PM

298. You didn't fact check anything, you aren't even sure of your own opinion!

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #298)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:02 PM

300. I would welcome your correction, if you have one.

But LAPD were not at Big Bear. That I am quite sure about. It was SBCo with assistance from US Marshalls and FBI. This was reported the night of the standoff. LAPD would not be there as Big Bear is miles and miles from LA and in another county.

If you have documentation that says otherwise, let's see it. Otherwise, I stand by the information I received from DUers who were listening via scanners as it was going down and reportage from the scene.

Big Bear Lake is about 90 miles from LA. LAPD have no jurisdiction there.

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:05 PM

11. They ordered the helicopters to stand off specifically so they could

execute Dorner by fire. They burned him alive and that makes the cops as bad and as wrong as Dorner was killing Ms. Quan and her fiance.

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Response to ChisolmTrailDem (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:18 PM

22. You don't know that and no, I don't see the cops on the scene as being as bad as Dorner

He'd murdered 4 people in cold blood and he had the opportunity yesterday to turn himself in when stopped by the fish and game wardens. He chose to open fire instead. He bears a huge amount of responsibility for his fate.

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Response to cali (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:59 PM

65. He had the opportunity to come out of the cabin too

with his hands up. They would have just rounded him up if he had attempted to surrender. He chose death.

It can be argued that they torched the cabin to give him a last chance to come out. They did want to wrap it up before night, without anyone else being killed.

But all that is speculation. We don't know for sure.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #65)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:33 PM

96. I don't know if you knew this, but fire kills people

I don't know if this is what hte police did, but to see so many DU'ers saying "YEAH! BARBEQUE THE BASTARD!" is fucking disgusting.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #96)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:41 PM

104. Link to DUer saying that, please

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #104)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:43 PM

106. Do you support the police setting the cabin on fire?

If you do, there you go.

Support for this "tactic" is absolutely advocating murdering someone with fire. Maybe you're comfortable with the police doing that, so long as the target is a "bad guy." I'm not. And I'm disgusted by the vomitous sacks of trash who are.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:45 PM

109. I doubt they did that deliberately.

'Burners' is another term for 'incendiary teargas canisters'. I'm guessing the fire was caused by the teargas canisters interacting with all the ammo that was stored there.

Of course that's just a guess.

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Response to randome (Reply #109)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:46 PM

112. As I said, I don't know if they did or not

But the attitude from so many DU'ers that it'd be perfectly okay if they did...

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Response to randome (Reply #109)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:55 PM

167. They burned the place AFTER they pulled the walls down?

 

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Response to RC (Reply #167)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:58 PM

168. Right now, it appears it was the teargas that started the fire.

'Burners' is another term for 'incendiary teargas canisters'. The teargas combined with all the ammo that was stored there probably started the fire.

Absent evidence to the contrary, of course.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:46 PM

110. I don't even support the death penalty


Was it lawful? Yes.

Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985)
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/471/1

Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force. Thus, if the suspect threatens the officer with a weapon or there is probable cause to believe that he has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm, deadly force may be used if necessary to prevent escape, and if, where feasible, some warning has been given.

Majority: White, joined by Brennan, Marshall, Blackmun, Powell, Stevens

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #110)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:49 PM

116. Anything involving a cop is "lawful" since the other option is the cops turning against the citizens

"Well, we don't like this ruling, so we're just going to sit here and let all you fuckers deal with it, have fun" - Take a look at Montreal a few years back.

Legal or not, I can't swallow it.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:44 PM

157. I agree with you the fire should never have been

started by the police it makes them look guilty of wanting to hide something.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #96)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:48 PM

115. Actually,

 

fire isn't usually the cause of death, smoke inhalation or heat usually gets them first.
But gleefully dancing is a bit over the top, although I won't shed any tears for this monster, the country and world are a better place without this man

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #96)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:00 PM

120. He was a cop. I think it was speaking his language.

--the message being --when they started to tear the cabin down--"you have one last chance to surrender. Take it or leave it." Harsh yes. Do I think burning it was absolutely right? I need more info to say that. Do think what they did was most likely legal whether we agree with the law or not. Probably. Dorner was a random serial killer. They had a mandate to stop him by any means necessary.

Hey Scoot--Can you talk about this without saying sarcastic things like "I don't know if you knew, but fire kills people..." So would it have been better to fill him full of bullets, literally explode him? This way he did get to kill himself, which was a bit more honorable.

I certainly didn't say barbeque the bastard. And I don't agree with revenge killing. But I think they can argue they gave him a chance to surrender, and if he had come out with his hands up, I think they would have honored it. I certainly wish that had been the scenario. He was a tragic figure, deranged, psychotic. He needed help.

Maybe it was expedient, but that is something to be analyzed afterwards. There were few options.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #120)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:04 PM

121. He may have simply assumed they were redecorating


The message sent by tearing down the walls was ambiguous at best.

Instead of "surrender now", he may have taken it to mean they were concerned about his mood, and wanted to let in more light and air to cheer him up.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #121)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:09 PM

125. Or to make it easier for the pizza delivery guy!

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Response to randome (Reply #125)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:10 PM

127. That and the aromatherapy


Proper Feng Shui can really change the course of a tense situation.

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Response to jberryhill (Reply #121)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:52 PM

162. They had to tear big holes so they could get the burners in the cabin.

It wasn't tear gas. They were trying to lite all sides of the building.

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Response to oldbanjo (Reply #162)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:54 PM

165. 'Burners' is another term for 'incendiary teargas canisters'.

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Response to oldbanjo (Reply #162)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:00 PM

171. Yes it was tear gas.

 

Burners is the slang word for tear gas, because it burns the mucous membrane, the eyes and the nose.
The word burner does not mean to start a fire.

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Response to marions ghost (Reply #120)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:09 PM

126. Yes, that absolutely is what you're saying

Well, more accurately, you're saying the police are always right no matter what because they're police, so they are above question even when it results in a suspect's death, and we should just always trust them.



^ comes to mind.

Shooting him when he presents an immediate threat is one thing. If he's shooting and catches a bullet himself, well, that happens. But if he's holed up and they set the place on fire? I can't accept that. If it's accidental, okay. Like I said, I have no idea if it was intentional or not, and my problem is with DU'ers who would support it even if it were.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #126)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:24 PM

137. No way do I think that the police are always right

What do you take me for? No, I said upthread that they acted like Reno 911 in shooting the innocent women. I think you know that what you're saying here is bull and Britney's fulla bullsh*t too.

Whatever...

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Response to cali (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:05 PM

12. Didn't the tear gas cause the conflagration? With exploding ammo, etc?

I agree if they deliberately burned the cabin, it was the wrong thing to do. But did they?

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Response to The Straight Story (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:33 PM

37. Apparently 'burners' is also a term used for 'incendiary teargas cannisters'.

From your link, near the bottom of the thread, is another post with another link that identifies 'burners' this way.

I'm still withholding judgment on this. And even then I may be willing to come down on the side of the cops on this since waiting around indefinitely while a sharpshooter took shots at them was probably not a good idea.

Dorner was given the chance to surrender. He chose to stay hidden so he could kill more people.

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