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Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:48 AM

A gun has two uses: To kill, and to threaten to kill.

Truth-2-Power's Brian Ross with a little history and mythology regarding guns. I highly recommend you read the entire article.


?w=604&h=402


http://truth-2-power.com/2012/12/26/in-guns-we-trust/



Between the gun industry and the larger military defense industry, the vast majority of money spent in the world does not feed, clothe, educate, or lift people out of poverty. The majority of money spent on Earth is still assessed to kill humans.

...

The industry can install single-user electronics that use fingerprint matching to prevent a weapon from being shared. There could be greater safe-storage requirements. Reduce maximum discharge to 10 rounds a clip. Compel people to take annual psychological screens as part of licensure, and take their guns away, temporarily or permanently when they show signs of depression, sociopathic behavior, or domestic abuse to avoid more “good” guys turning into “bad guys.”

If we’re going forward, not backward, though, how highly evolved do we have to be to take the wanton destruction of human life out of the power games of human culture?

Guns are death. Death at home. Death most often by the closest person to you: You.

64 replies, 5211 views

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Arrow 64 replies Author Time Post
Reply A gun has two uses: To kill, and to threaten to kill. (Original post)
Scuba Feb 2013 OP
clarice Feb 2013 #1
sinkingfeeling Feb 2013 #4
clarice Feb 2013 #6
Bonhomme Richard Feb 2013 #11
Smilo Feb 2013 #34
Blanks Feb 2013 #19
onehandle Feb 2013 #2
Locrian Feb 2013 #3
cthulu2016 Feb 2013 #5
HangOnKids Feb 2013 #8
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #12
sinkingfeeling Feb 2013 #14
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #17
sinkingfeeling Feb 2013 #30
BainsBane Feb 2013 #15
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #16
BainsBane Feb 2013 #18
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #20
HangOnKids Feb 2013 #40
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #47
HangOnKids Feb 2013 #48
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #49
HangOnKids Feb 2013 #50
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #51
HangOnKids Feb 2013 #57
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #58
HangOnKids Feb 2013 #59
el_bryanto Feb 2013 #60
HangOnKids Feb 2013 #61
Remmah2 Feb 2013 #52
badtoworse Feb 2013 #7
progressoid Feb 2013 #9
badtoworse Feb 2013 #13
progressoid Feb 2013 #21
hack89 Feb 2013 #28
sinkingfeeling Feb 2013 #29
hack89 Feb 2013 #31
progressoid Feb 2013 #35
hack89 Feb 2013 #36
progressoid Feb 2013 #37
hack89 Feb 2013 #39
progressoid Feb 2013 #42
sinkingfeeling Feb 2013 #41
Coyote_Tan Feb 2013 #32
sinkingfeeling Feb 2013 #38
Coyote_Tan Feb 2013 #54
aikoaiko Feb 2013 #44
sinkingfeeling Feb 2013 #10
Jester Messiah Feb 2013 #22
cali Feb 2013 #23
One_Life_To_Give Feb 2013 #24
Bake Feb 2013 #25
Lurks Often Feb 2013 #26
aikoaiko Feb 2013 #27
hack89 Feb 2013 #33
ScreamingMeemie Feb 2013 #43
Scuba Feb 2013 #46
Spider Jerusalem Feb 2013 #45
Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2013 #53
HockeyMom Feb 2013 #55
wandy Feb 2013 #56
datasuspect Feb 2013 #62
VOX Feb 2013 #63
sarisataka Feb 2013 #64

Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:10 PM

1. But what about the guy breaking into your house ?

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Response to clarice (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:22 PM

4. They don't come near a house with large, barking dogs. I'm in my 60s and

have lived in 9 states and in some of the country's largest cities. I've owned 10 homes and have never had even an attempted break-in.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:24 PM

6. Dogs are good.nt

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:39 PM

11. You don't live in a "What If" world....

like they do.Always prepared for the worse like being attacked by a platoon of zombies on PCB's.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:00 PM

34. Yep - we have 4 such dogs and dogs are such good

deterrents that you can actually buy recordings of barking dogs to deter burglars.

http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/5686006-guard-dog-barking-and-growling-sounds

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Response to clarice (Reply #1)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:57 PM

19. Good point. There is that 1 in 22 chance...

That folks who have a gun for home defense might actually use it to defend their home.

Instead of shooting themselves or a loved one.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:11 PM

2. Some people use guns for household tasks.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:20 PM

3. great article - really can't argue with much

This quote struck me:


Between the gun industry and the larger military defense industry, the vast majority of money spent in the world does not feed, clothe, educate, or lift people out of poverty. The majority of money spent on Earth is still assessed to kill humans.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:23 PM

5. The articles fails almost before it begins

Between the gun industry and the larger military defense industry, the vast majority of money spent in the world does not feed, clothe, educate, or lift people out of poverty. The majority of money spent on Earth is still assessed to kill humans.


This is not true, and OBVIOUSLY not true, and typical of the infantile hyperbole that makes some voices very unsympathetic.

The author is a fool.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:33 PM

8. Not true, and OBVIOUSLY not true

Care to post some facts to support ths assertion? Thanks!

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:48 PM

12. According to Wikipedia

The world spent 1,738 billion on military expenditures - or 2.5% of the World GDP. I am guessing (as the author does) that we spend less on Personal Handguns.

Of course Wikipedia may not be the worlds most reliable source.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:53 PM

14. Actually, that's $1.7 trillion according to the Stockholm International Peace

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:55 PM

17. Nods - that's what i said - although maybe should have phrased it better

1,738 billion is the same as 1.7 trillion.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:54 PM

30. Wanted you to have the direct source of the info.

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:54 PM

15. that doesn't include money spent on personal guns

and other weapons.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #15)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:54 PM

16. ok - but do you believe that we spend more money than that on personal guns? Really?

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:55 PM

18. no

but I also think we spend more on guns and military expenditures than feeding the poor.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:57 PM

20. That is probably true, but that's not what the author of the article states

I will say article is worth reading - it just overstates its case in this instance.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:13 PM

40. Not buying what wiki has to offer

try again!!!

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #40)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:04 PM

47. Nods - that's very high minded of you

Why let evidence or common sense cloud your judgement?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #47)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:08 PM

48. Of course Wikipedia may not be the worlds most reliable source.

Your EXACT quote, but don't let that stop you. Keep on bryant....LOL!!!!!

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #48)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:51 PM

49. They originated with the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute

Apparently.

What are your counter statistics?

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #49)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:09 PM

50. No please continue with your quote

Apparently. LOL you are fun!!!!!!!!

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #50)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:15 PM

51. Naturally. See I thought this was a serious issue

I didn't realize you were just fucking around.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #51)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:34 PM

57. Your Quote

The world spent 1,738 billion on military expenditures - or 2.5% of the World GDP. I am guessing (as the author does) that we spend less on Personal Handguns.

Of course Wikipedia may not be the worlds most reliable source.

Bryant

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #57)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:06 PM

58. "The majority of money spent on Earth is still assessed to kill humans. "

That's another quote for you.

Evidence from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, quoted by Wikipedia, suggests that this statement may not be accurate. You disagree with Wikipedia and the Stockholme INternational Peace Research Institute which presumably means that you agree with the original quote -that the Majority of Money spent on earth is still assessed to kill humans.

Based on evidence at hand that seems nonsensical. But if you have counter evidence I'd be happy to look at it.

If you don't have any evidence you should apologize and shut up. Wether or not you agree with me, at least I'm taking this serious issue seriously.

Bryant

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #58)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:08 PM

59. wether or not?

Sorry I have nothing more to say to you.

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Response to HangOnKids (Reply #59)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:47 PM

60. I suppose there's no way to keep childish assholes off the internet. nt

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #60)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:05 PM

61. Mirror?

I am sure you have one. Please grab a dictionary too! Thanks!

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Response to el_bryanto (Reply #12)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:21 PM

52. Wikipedia is no more than an extended list of NRA talking points.

 

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:28 PM

7. You forgot to mention legitimate self defense

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:36 PM

9. To kill, and to threaten to kill

If you use a gun in self defense it would be to kill, or threaten to kill.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #9)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:49 PM

13. So why not say that guns have legitimate uses and illegitimate ones?

The OP's subject line seems slanted to me.

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Response to badtoworse (Reply #13)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:57 PM

21. No one is denying that there are legitimate and illegitimate uses.

But that doesn't change the fact that ultimately guns are used to kill or threaten to kill.

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Response to progressoid (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:51 PM

28. How does target shooting fit into that world view?

I have been shooting for 30 years and have never shoot at a living thing.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:53 PM

29. Can one target shoot with 'blanks'? I thought I read somewhere that you can.

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #29)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:55 PM

31. We are talking about intent.

me shooting bullets at a paper target seems to be contrary to the OP's notion that killing is all that guns are about.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #28)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:04 PM

35. I dunno.

What do you shoot with? Paintball gun?

Do you keep a weapon at home for defense?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:07 PM

36. AR-15.

I live in a safe area so I do not have a self-defense gun - all my guns are locked up when not in use.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #36)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:10 PM

37. So,

if you didn't live in a safe area...?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #37)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:12 PM

39. I would move.

I wouldn't want to live in a place where I thought I needed a gun to protect my family because I know it would be impossible to protect them all the time.

On edit: But I won't deny others the choice to own a gun for self defense. It is a matter of individual choice.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #39)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:16 PM

42. cool

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Response to progressoid (Reply #35)


Response to progressoid (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:57 PM

32. So what? Some folks need to die...

 

Threaten me or mine and I am morally obligated to respond with force.

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Response to Coyote_Tan (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:12 PM

38. Really? Like the guy who killed the young man who pulled into his driveway by mistake?

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Response to sinkingfeeling (Reply #38)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:25 PM

54. No... But I'm not a moron...

 

No threat... No problem...

Duh...

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Response to progressoid (Reply #21)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:19 PM

44. The author of the OP does. He said self-defense shootings are "amoral"


This guy is as loony than LaPierre.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:39 PM

10. Great and truthful article.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:07 PM

22. You can also beat people with them, should you be in a non-lethal frame of mind.

Pistol whip, hit them with the rifle butt, etc. You can also use non-lethal ammunition. Rubber bullets, beanbag rounds for shotguns.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:13 PM

23. I'm not impressed.

"The gun removes two barriers to homicide: Strength and courage."

Really? so all homicides committed prior to advent of the gun and all that subsequently have been committed that didn't utilize a gun, required strength and courage? Poison anyone?

"Heredity – We know, from a 2010 study, that conservatives which includes a large number of those who carry weapons, have enlarged fear centers in their brains. Guns provide some level of control and comfort to those with this trait.".

Lots of liberals own guns and sorry, but one study hardly means "we know....".

"Further, use of a gun for self protection is amoral. To protect, one must be willing to violate most religious law. Somehow, “Thou shalt not kill,” and its other religious variants, take a faith holiday for gun owners. If you use a weapon as intended, or even threaten to use that weapon, its purpose is to kill. Its only credible threat as a “deterrent” is that it will kill. Threat or act, if you pick up a weapon to protect yourself, you are violating one of the core principles of Judea-Christian faith, and that of many other faiths as well. What would Jesus do? Pick up a handgun and threaten someone? Gun worshippers follow Hammurabi, not Christ."


Seriously? Lots of nonsense in that paragraph. Lots of conflating too. And what's with bringing religion into it?

“As months and years go by, you realize that that one moment of uncontrolled impulse leads to loss of life,” says former “Son of Sam” serial killer David Berkowitz, who decades after his mid-1970′s shooting spree, counsels others behind bars struggling with depression and violence. ”Next thing you know, for this one moment of unleashing your anger, you go to prison for many, many years.”

Berkowitz hardly gave into "one moment of uncontrolled impulse.

The majority of all violent crime occurred in the Southern states which also have the most lax gun control laws.

False

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:33 PM

24. And making Ferrite Explode



Cheaper than a therapist and a whole lot more satisfying.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:33 PM

25. Sometimes killing is necessary and justified.

If it's "him" or "me or my family," it's gonna be him.

Bake

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Response to Scuba (Original post)


Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:46 PM

27. Guns have intent and killing someone in self-defense is amoral? WTF?

Last edited Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:17 PM - Edit history (1)

If the anti-gunners like this type of thing -- so be it.

I'll go to the range and use my rifle improperly to shoot little holes in the x-ring.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:58 PM

33. Mine must be defective

all they have ever done is punch holes in pieces of paper. Or perhaps my mind is strong enough to ignore their alluring sirens call to kill or threaten living things. Because we know it is not about people and their actions - it is about those evil hunks of steel. And we know that guns just want to kill.


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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:18 PM

43. There would have been a time when I would have vehemently argued with the author--

And then August 26, 2007 happened--and no matter how much we believe we are only going to be punching holes in little pieces of paper, other options are always there

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Response to ScreamingMeemie (Reply #43)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:21 PM

46. You're also describing my journey, and that of others too.

I'd melt all my firearms in a heartbeat if it would end the killing.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:21 PM

45. Hunting and target shooting?

Clearly this is not a person who's ever lived outside an urban or suburban area in his life.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #45)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:21 PM

53. Hunting involves killing.

Target shooting involves simulation of killing, hence you often see targets at ranges that look like this:



Note: I am not saying that there is anything intrinsically wrong with either hunting or target shooting. But it still doesn't diminish the intended purpose of a gun.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:25 PM

55. I can rationalize guns for hunting

although not my cup of tea, as long as you are killing the game and EATING it. Serves a purpose there. Personally, since I am not a big meat eater by taste, I would become a vegetarian if I had to kill an animal to eat it.

I guess what I am saying is that there are OTHER ways, and I include defense in that one. Been there, done that one twice.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:34 PM

56. Sometimes I am mistaken as anti gun.........

I am a hell of a lot more tolerant of guns than my Father was.
Two lessons....
Never point an empty gun at someone. It's likely to get you killed.
Never point a loaded gun at someone, unless you can live with you're conscious.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:05 PM

62. YAWN

 

move on.

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:11 PM

63. They also make very expensive paperweights. n/t

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Response to Scuba (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:14 PM

64. So much wrong...

I can't begin to cover it all.
When a handgun or non-hunting/sporting rifle is manufactured, its intent is to kill human beings.
There are many handguns which are extremely poor for killing human beings but are great at shooting various targets in competitions

Guns eliminate physical strength and agility as barriers to entry and can make anyone feel that they have the potential to put themselves on an equal footing with those who would seek them harm
Admitting that with a gun an elderly person can put themselves equal to an attack in their prime... yet this is bad

You don’t become a criminal until you use a gun in a criminal manner.
There are quite a few criminals who have never used a gun. You also don't become a counterfeiter until you print counterfeit money, and so on with any other false argument

use of a gun for self protection is amoral
Be a victim, it is better for you

To protect, one must be willing to violate most religious law
Continue to be a victim because any other weapon can kill and is violating religious law. Or maybe only atheists can use weapons

there is so much more, like {guns kill instantly unlike explosives}, to make this article an extremely poor argument for... well anything.

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