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Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:18 AM

For the grammar police: One space after periods, people

My life is so perfect that today, I got to ranting on Twitter about people still using double spacing after periods. As is always the case when I do that, people pushed back, claiming that TWO spaces was the correct way, and that they hadn't gotten the memo about the rule change.
But they are wrong. It's one space.

Every modern typographer agrees on the one-space rule. It's one of the canonical rules of the profession, in the same way that waiters know that the salad fork goes to the left of the dinner fork and fashion designers know to put men's shirt buttons on the right and women's on the left. Every major style guide—including the Modern Language Association Style Manual and the Chicago Manual of Style—prescribes a single space after a period. (The Publications Manual of the American Psychological Association, used widely in the social sciences, allows for two spaces in draft manuscripts but recommends one space in published work.)

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/12/1186652/-One-space-after-periods-people

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Reply For the grammar police: One space after periods, people (Original post)
mfcorey1 Feb 2013 OP
trumad Feb 2013 #1
Kolesar Feb 2013 #2
Phillip McCleod Feb 2013 #83
Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #95
Atman Feb 2013 #103
Phillip McCleod Feb 2013 #121
Kolesar Feb 2013 #124
hlthe2b Feb 2013 #3
Art_from_Ark Feb 2013 #5
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #23
Coyotl Feb 2013 #46
backscatter712 Feb 2013 #58
robinlynne Feb 2013 #78
backscatter712 Feb 2013 #88
robinlynne Feb 2013 #93
Atman Feb 2013 #105
robinlynne Feb 2013 #107
angel823 Feb 2013 #113
tblue Feb 2013 #109
Delphinus Feb 2013 #129
robinlynne Feb 2013 #79
hlthe2b Feb 2013 #100
Laelth Feb 2013 #4
stuntcat Feb 2013 #7
firehorse Feb 2013 #102
northoftheborder Feb 2013 #104
gollygee Feb 2013 #9
whistler162 Feb 2013 #6
hobbit709 Feb 2013 #8
savebigbird Feb 2013 #12
TM99 Feb 2013 #10
actslikeacarrot Feb 2013 #42
Atman Feb 2013 #115
TM99 Feb 2013 #117
savebigbird Feb 2013 #11
robinlynne Feb 2013 #81
Make7 Feb 2013 #13
Squinch Feb 2013 #138
avebury Feb 2013 #14
Buns_of_Fire Feb 2013 #25
truebluegreen Feb 2013 #49
Callmecrazy Feb 2013 #82
Auntie Bush Feb 2013 #98
Ikonoklast Feb 2013 #15
lunatica Feb 2013 #16
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #18
lunatica Feb 2013 #19
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #17
Kalidurga Feb 2013 #111
ananda Feb 2013 #20
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #22
TorchTheWitch Feb 2013 #29
ellenfl Feb 2013 #31
gvstn Feb 2013 #38
Jamastiene Feb 2013 #127
Blue_In_AK Feb 2013 #67
Make7 Feb 2013 #69
Blue_In_AK Feb 2013 #71
tledford Feb 2013 #68
WinkyDink Feb 2013 #21
Earth_First Feb 2013 #24
2pooped2pop Feb 2013 #26
GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #27
LWolf Feb 2013 #28
Sheldon Cooper Feb 2013 #30
dorkzilla Feb 2013 #32
Aerows Feb 2013 #34
no_hypocrisy Feb 2013 #60
Aerows Feb 2013 #33
Marrah_G Feb 2013 #35
LiberalFighter Feb 2013 #43
Chellee Feb 2013 #59
backscatter712 Feb 2013 #92
name not needed Feb 2013 #89
Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2013 #36
Jamastiene Feb 2013 #126
Blue_Tires Feb 2013 #136
jsr Feb 2013 #37
dorkzilla Feb 2013 #64
Spider Jerusalem Feb 2013 #39
Bertha Venation Feb 2013 #40
LiberalFighter Feb 2013 #41
JaneyVee Feb 2013 #44
FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #50
Orrex Feb 2013 #45
pipi_k Feb 2013 #47
Tyrs WolfDaemon Feb 2013 #48
pokerfan Feb 2013 #106
Tyrs WolfDaemon Feb 2013 #112
MADem Feb 2013 #51
freshwest Feb 2013 #120
fried eggs Feb 2013 #52
formercia Feb 2013 #53
AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #54
robinlynne Feb 2013 #85
mainstreetonce Feb 2013 #55
TlalocW Feb 2013 #56
TlalocW Feb 2013 #57
BainsBane Feb 2013 #61
BlueStreak Feb 2013 #62
RebelOne Feb 2013 #63
robinlynne Feb 2013 #86
mattclearing Feb 2013 #65
RebelOne Feb 2013 #72
kskiska Feb 2013 #123
Blue_In_AK Feb 2013 #66
bigwillq Feb 2013 #70
RebelOne Feb 2013 #96
bigwillq Feb 2013 #97
frogmarch Feb 2013 #73
Le Taz Hot Feb 2013 #74
llmart Feb 2013 #75
tblue Feb 2013 #110
Auggie Feb 2013 #76
southernyankeebelle Feb 2013 #77
Curmudgeoness Feb 2013 #80
Ilsa Feb 2013 #84
gulliver Feb 2013 #87
Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #90
forestpath Feb 2013 #91
Lex Feb 2013 #94
pokerfan Feb 2013 #99
Squinch Feb 2013 #101
BainsBane Feb 2013 #108
NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #114
Waiting For Everyman Feb 2013 #116
SheilaT Feb 2013 #118
ChoppinBroccoli Feb 2013 #119
Throd Feb 2013 #122
Dorian Gray Feb 2013 #125
lynne Feb 2013 #128
ashling Feb 2013 #130
raccoon Feb 2013 #131
2pooped2pop Feb 2013 #132
Safetykitten Feb 2013 #133
Javaman Feb 2013 #134
pokerfan Feb 2013 #135
steve2470 Feb 2013 #137

Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)


Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:24 AM

2. In proportional fonts, it does not matter

R U sure... learned two spaces in typing 101...brb
--sent from a non mobile device--

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Response to Kolesar (Reply #2)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:20 PM

83. yep i was production designer at a magazine for years

 

and newspapers before that. always one space. going back to linotype.. one space. i would say that very many of us had bad typing teachers who simply didn't know any better.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #83)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:37 PM

95. No. It was proper English punctuation to use two spaces after a period/end of sentence.

There was no exception. This was to break the sentences up more clearly, making it easier for the eye to discern end of one thought and beginning of the next.

Certain industries have their own standards, however, that do not go by standard English punctuation and grammar rules. I don't know about magazines, but they may have their own standards because of limited space and the nature of magazines. I took a journalism course years ago, though, and I don't recall that it was standard to use one space after the end of a sentence.

I work in the legal business. It is still the standard to use two spaces after a period indicating end of a sentence. It is formal business English grammar and punctuation. I imagine it will eventually change, but it hasn't yet.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #95)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:50 PM

103. You are WRONG.

YOU are the exception to which you refer. Two spaces after a period ONLY applies to old school mono spaced typewriters. Law offices usually submit briefs it standard mono-spaced font, so that every version can referenced as "paragraph x, line x," and it is consistent no matter which typewriter was used.

But who gives a crap about IBM Selectric typewriter fonts anymore? Real typography dictates ONE space after a period.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #95)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:19 PM

121. no it's changed. long since changed.

 

it was my job to remove double spaces after periods. period. maybe some people have done it wrong anyway, but as others have pointed out in this thread, every single style guide specifies one space.

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Response to Phillip McCleod (Reply #121)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:00 AM

124. Whose job was it to restore capitalization, then?

just teasing

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:29 AM

3. Anyone who learned to touch type, learned two spaces... I agree that with proportional font that

rule is meaningless. Regardless, it is not a "grammar" issue.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:39 AM

5. Right-- it is a punctuation issue.

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Response to Art_from_Ark (Reply #5)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:51 AM

23. No, it is a typographical issue. Punctuation applies to writing, not typing "style."

In long-hand, one does not think of "single space" or "double space."

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:50 AM

46. And then along came HTML and the convention of ignoring extra whitespace by computers.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #3)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:17 PM

58. I remember being taught 2 spaces after a period too. But that was back in the days of typewriters.

That rule is wrong for today. One space.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #58)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:16 PM

78. Who changed the rule and when? I never got the memo.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #78)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:28 PM

88. I believe the two-space thing was to deal with typewriters with monospace fonts.

If you're using a monospace font, like on an old typewriter, where every character has the same width, it's harder to see intentional spacing between words and sentences.  This is why the convention of two spaces after the period ending a sentence was developed.


However, today's fonts are proportional width, where a "W" is wider than an "i". With these fonts, and modern font-rendering, the computer will automatically use the correct amount of space between words, so you only need one space. In fact, your web browser will automatically strip the second space after a period if it exists.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #88)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:35 PM

93. who knew?

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #93)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:54 PM

105. I did.

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Response to Atman (Reply #105)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:13 PM

107. lol. (double space)

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #88)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:24 PM

113. thank you!

I could never really understand this argument. I am older, and initially learned to type on a typewriter (IBM Selectric) in high school. Two spaces after the period was the rule. Or so I was taught. It's funny, I just automatically space twice after a period! Hard habit to break.

Since I have worked in various IT jobs over the years, this explanation makes sense to me and will probably motivate me to try and use just one space for awhile, just for fun.

Angel in Texas

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #78)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:20 PM

109. Yeah. Same here. I am doing this out of habit.

Amazing that this is such a point of contention. Let me see if I can do it. Whoa. It's unnatural.

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Response to robinlynne (Reply #78)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:39 AM

129. Neither did I.

Guess I'm showing my age, eh?

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #58)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:17 PM

79. I cant believe "back in the days of typewriters." I know it is so, but it doesn't feel "back in the

day"ish.

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Response to backscatter712 (Reply #58)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:17 PM

100. Which is EXACTLY what I said.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:29 AM

4. I still use two spaces out of habit.

But I recognize the MLA Style Manual as the best authority on such things, and if it says one space, then I concede that my habit is in error (at the moment, at least).

-Laelth

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Response to Laelth (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:04 AM

7. Ditto this^ my habit is an error

It's hard to quit it when I've been typing that way for decades.
I hope no one's distracted by my spacing and thinks since I'm an idiot nothing I'm typing is important
I should start hitting return after each sentence. No, I'll try to change my habit I guess, hope I remember.

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Response to stuntcat (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:34 PM

102. I prefer the 2 space habit..... less visual gluttony.

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Response to stuntcat (Reply #7)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:53 PM

104. I typed too long with two spaces, can't stop now easily. Don't see what diff. it makes on blogging.

This is not exactly writing to be published. I think reading on the computer is harder than on paper, also. That is why so many, including me, have started making much more frequent paragraph breaks. It is just easier to read a long piece with frequent breaks on the computer page.

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Response to Laelth (Reply #4)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:06 AM

9. This is the case for me as well.

I typed for ages with two spaces after a period. I'm pretty much over that habit, but I still sometimes find myself doing it.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 06:54 AM

6. okay . but are u sure ?

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:05 AM

8. That's one of the things I couldn't care less about.

Now improper homophones and bad spelling is another story.

My pet peevee is lightEning instead of lightning.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #8)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:11 AM

12. Eye no, write?!?

LOLOLOLOLOL

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:08 AM

10. Not this tripe again!

http://www.heracliteanriver.com/?p=324

It is all arbitrary. Typographers make up shit. Modern isn't always better. Know your audience. Know who is publishing you. As a member of the APA, yes, I use two spaces as I am doing here. You want to follow or need to follow MLA or CMS, then do a single-space. Habrace simply says to be consistent. If you are following a modern convention and use a single-space then do so through the entire writing. However, two spaces are just fine as well. As my parents were professors of English and I grew up on the Harbrace, I will follow their advice, thanks.

But get off the holy high horse of bullshit history that never was.

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Response to TM99 (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:40 AM

42. Great article!

Had NO idea of the history behind typography. And as an experiment, I went to my personal collection of books and checked the spacing after periods. All my older books from the 1940's and before had a larger space after sentences, while my newer books had the same spacing. Never even noticed ha ha

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Response to TM99 (Reply #10)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:30 PM

115. But you're wrong.

It is not up to your preference. In modern typography (ie; not old typewriters or lead type), two spaces after a period is not a "preference." It is an error.

Things change. No one looks at your two spaces and says "oh, I admire how he adheres to tradition." If they notice at all, they assume you just aren't up on technology.

I learned conventional typing in Jr. High, too. Some good memories, but I got over 'em.
Unlesz you're still touch tying on your old Remington...

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Response to Atman (Reply #115)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:55 PM

117. No, sorry,

typography is not grammar, punctuation, or style.

Style guides for the various schools and professions will determine which typography will be required. If one requires single-space (Chicago or MLA) then you use single-space. If one does not or allows for a choice in preference (such as Harbrace or APA) then consistency is what is required. If you are doing it for personal communications that are non-professional, do what you want.

I work in several professional fields including programming and development with advanced technology. I seriously doubt any one will consider me 'not up on technology' if given a choice, I choose the typography convention that has been in consistent use for hundreds of years versus the illusory belief of typologists and graphic designers today who erroneously believe that because it is 'modern' it is 'better'.

So if you have chosen to change what you were taught, fine by me, but please do not confuse personal choice with 'right' choice.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:10 AM

11. Two spaces forever!

I feel so rebellious!

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Response to savebigbird (Reply #11)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:17 PM

81. love it.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:14 AM

13. Is spacing that important?          Really?       ( n/t )

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Response to Make7 (Reply #13)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:05 PM

138. Do you think spacing disobedience should be a bannable offense?

Like, with bananas and everything. Or not?

Edit: well shoot! I tried a spacing joke in there, but the damn computer corrected it!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:17 AM

14. When I am in MS Word, I actually prefer two spaces because one space

after a period makes it look like sentences are shoved together. It kind of reminds me of someone who is a motormouth who talks a long time between taking a breath. When I am online like here on DU, a single space after a period looks ok.

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Response to avebury (Reply #14)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:33 AM

25. I hate that "run-on" look, too.

And youre right it looks like someone who just talks on and on and on and on and never really says anything as if theyre paid by the word and who never even really pays a lot of attention about punctuation or spelling like I really get torqued at people who use loose when they mean lose but Im digressing here because I really want to comment on the single space versus double space issue because I too learned to type in the olden days on a manual typewriter that had a sticking "A" key and Id always have to stop mid paper to reach up and flip back all the keys that had clustered together and Id get frustrated and hit the typewriter and that would anger the instructor which is why I only got a "B" even though I could type like greasy lightning except for that damned "A" key but anyway I remember being taught to always use a double-space after a period which I still do if Im using a monospace font but I've broken the habit when using proportional fonts even though I still sometimes have a problem with brevity and staying on subject which is probably something else altogether but anyway Ive now progressed to the point where Im paid for the cogency and accuracy of my statements which probably explains why I haven't made a dime writing anything.

*gasping breath*

So, uh... what were we talking about again?

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Response to Buns_of_Fire (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:17 AM

49. <snort>

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Response to Buns_of_Fire (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:19 PM

82. Raise your arms above your head...

It will help you take deeper breaths. Excellent rant, by the way.

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Response to Buns_of_Fire (Reply #25)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:51 PM

98. Hey! You forgot a period...some typist!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:21 AM

15. I w i l l f o l l o w y o u r a d v i c e f r o m n o w o n .

T h a n k s f o r t h e r e m i n d e r .

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:28 AM

16. In the middle of your second paragraph my eyes totally lost track of the place

they were supposed to be focused on. Which means that then I had to again find the correct spot which caused me to lose your train of thought and my patience. Perhaps in actual hard copy the one space works, but online it doesn't.

As a web designer I can tell you that it's much easier to read when there's more white space.

Frankly I prefer the two spaces after the period. It's fucking easier on the eyes.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #16)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:37 AM

18. But you are using only one in your post.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #18)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:39 AM

19. No. I used two

Then it posted as if I was using one.

I also use two spaces when I can to create a new paragraph. I like white space.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:31 AM

17. Only on computers, mon ami. On typewriters from back in the day? TWO spaces. This? One space.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #17)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:21 PM

111. Typewriter???

I haven't seen one of those since 1990. The last typewriter repair shop that I know of closed around 2000.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:43 AM

20. I was taught to put two spaces after a period and one after a comma and semicolon.

However, sure, it's faster typing and a more efficient use of space to put one space after a period... and I don't think it affects reading all that much, though I think you'd find a definite improvement in reading ability with two spaces after a period. In my case, I know I would because my brain is trained to expect things by which to read pauses and inflections.

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Response to ananda (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:46 AM

22. Yet you used only one space in your post: "...period. In....." See?

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:46 AM

29. No, DU auto-corrects double spacing

DU changes double spacing after a period to one space when you type two spaces. Having learned to type in the 70's, and typing business letters and documents for many years I'm in the habit of always double spacing. I've noticed years ago that DU auto-corrects double spacing to single spacing once the post button is activated. I'm double spacing what I'm typing in this very post, yet it will auto-correct to single spacing... which I happen to dislike as single spacing to me just doesn't separate sentences well enough.


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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #29)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:04 AM

31. i wondered why my two spaces looked like one!

don't tell my boss about this. i'm always correcting his single space after a sentence. i agree it's easier to read, especially since tnr characters don't take up equal space. i wish all fonts were like courier!

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #29)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:29 AM

38. Thank you!

From what I can tell almost all boards or other non word-proccessing software auto-corrects the two spaces to one. So it doesn't make any difference. Yes, it is more efficient to use one space but in the finished product it all comes out the same way.

I haven't broken the habit, yet. But I do understand the reasoning.

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Response to TorchTheWitch (Reply #29)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:21 AM

127. If it is really important to you,

you can add & non-breaking space (use & then add the first letters of non-breaking space) for the second space to actually show up. I noticed DU doing that years ago and got out of the habit of bothering with the second space because of that. It really does look better though.

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Response to WinkyDink (Reply #22)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:29 PM

67. DU autocorrects the double spacing as I noticed to my dismay.

I hate machines that correct my stuff, like that stupid autocorrect on the iPad. I spend more time going back and fixing their stupid errors than I do actually typing something.

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Response to Blue_In_AK (Reply #67)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:41 PM

69. You can preserve the spacing in your posts if you really, really want to...

...by adding the following CSS:

[div style="white-space:pre-wrap;"]text here[/div]


One drawback with that code is that hitting enter will cause two line breaks instead of a single one. Which sort of makes sense from a typing standpoint - hit enter once and you get a new paragraph with a singe line between the previous one - but the text looks different in the text entry box and the preview/post since in the text entry field there won't be an empty line between paragraphs.

You can also turn auto-correction off on your iPad.

Settings > General > Keyboard > Auto-Correction > Off

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Response to Make7 (Reply #69)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:48 PM

71. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I really don't care that much about the spaces but the autocorrect drives me crazy.

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Response to ananda (Reply #20)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:33 PM

68. Two spaces after a colon, too, and capitalize the first word following the colon. eom

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:44 AM

21. P.S. This isn't "grammar"; it isn't even "punctuation." It is "typography."

"The typist may wish to continue using two spaces after a period, but the typographer should not."
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/08/15/mind-your-en-and-em-dashes-typographic-etiquette/

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:26 AM

24. You think this is some sort of game?!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:36 AM

26. who gives a rats ass. Oops isn't that rat's ass? n/t

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:42 AM

27. Been using two spaces for 51 years.

Ain't gonna change now.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:45 AM

28. I still use two spaces.

First, I learned that way. I could change, but haven't because of reason # 2: it's easier to read. I teach my students to use two spaces. Why? I have to read many, many papers. Two spaces reduces the eye strain.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:48 AM

30. Nope. Two spaces.

And I will never, NEVER give in!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:05 AM

32. Two spaces was what I learned in high school typing class. Screw up and get a whap on the knuckles.

I like my knuckles. I don't like people telling me that the rules changed and insisting I go along with it. I also won't wear white after Labor Day. Shoot me.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:17 AM

34. Me too

That's what was drilled into my head in typing class.

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Response to dorkzilla (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:03 PM

60. Me three.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:16 AM

33. Not this again

I use two spaces after a period. Period.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:25 AM

35. What happens if I use 2?

Does a puppy die somewhere?

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Response to Marrah_G (Reply #35)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:43 AM

43. 3 Republicans die, 14 Republicans lose their front teeth

5 Republicans get arrested and go to jail for using cocaine

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #43)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:33 PM

59. Really?

Well. I believe. My sentences will. Become significantly shorter. In the future.

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Response to Chellee (Reply #59)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:35 PM

92. You've been foiled by your web browser.

It automatically strips the extra space. So ".  Blah" becomes ". Blah".

But if you use the &nbsp; character, you can force the browser to explicitly display an extra space.  This way, you can help things along.  So, every time a sentence is ended with two spaces after the period, a Republican dies?  I only want to do my share.  I'm just trying to be helpful.  I wouldn't want modern technology to undermine my efforts.

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Response to LiberalFighter (Reply #43)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:29 PM

89. Tell me again why I should start using only one space?

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:27 AM

36. You rant on Twitter about grammar?

Have you even seen Twitter?

Why waste your time? Double spacing after periods is the least of your worries there.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #36)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:14 AM

126. This is the best answer.

I rarely ever even see any punctuation on Twitter.

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Response to Tommy_Carcetti (Reply #36)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:58 PM

136. I think that is the giveaway that the OP is a subtle trolling effort...

Even on the innernettes, precious few people have such an acute lack of self-awareness...

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:27 AM

37. omg u srs

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Response to jsr (Reply #37)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:54 PM

64. *snort*

Tee hee

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:31 AM

39. The reason for double-spacing after a full stop: fixed-width fonts on typewriters.

Proportional fonts have proper spacing. If you're typing on a computer and not using Courier or another monospaced font, you should be using a single space after a full stop.

The problem is that there are quite a lot of people who learnt to type on typewriters whose obsolete spacing habits not only get passed on but are bizarrely insisted upon (see: the number of teachers who insist that any assignments/papers have double spacing despite the fact that it's not been "correct" for some time now).

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:33 AM

40. Oh, boy.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:40 AM

41. Double spaces is from an era when typewriters were in use.

Double spaces are automatically shorten to single spaces when posting to this board.

Double spaces are automatically shorten to single spaces when creating webpages using html. Unless you know the tricks to get those extra spaces to show.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:43 AM

44. Yes, ONE SPACE. And after commas as well. And be sure to use oxford comma's.

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Response to JaneyVee (Reply #44)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:34 PM

50. ...

NO OXFORD COMMA, NO MERCY

(and no apostraphe on a plural!)

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:48 AM

45. I use three spaces. To hell with you conformists!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:00 AM

47. Thanks, but

I learned typing in HS over 40 years ago, and we did double spacing after periods. After all these years, it's a habit.

Also...my eyes are getting older and it's often very hard for me to see the ends and beginnings of sentences without that double space.

If someone doesn't bother capitalizing the first letter of the next sentence, or writes in long paragraphs, or even capitalizes words that shouldn't be capitalized, it's painful to read what they've written. And I won't bother.

So I say to people...if you care about people actually reading what you write, make it easy for them to read it. If you just want to write for the sake of writing something, go ahead and make it difficult. Just don't complain when many people don't pay attention. And don't, FGS, accuse them of having a reading comprehension problem. I say that to people in general, not to you personally.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:03 AM

48. I use two spaces just as I learned in grade school.

My parents made sure that I learned to type on the (at the time) brand new Apple 2 (We even had a giant card in it that expanded the memory to 128k! ). For that reason I will always use two spaces. If this is wrong on my part, tough $hit. It will be a new way for me to spread chaos upon the face of the earth.

This message has been brought to you by the Brotherhood of Evil Hydrogeologists as we expand our evil to typography.





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Response to Tyrs WolfDaemon (Reply #48)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:01 PM

106. your logo needs some Comic Sans

The most hated font in the world!

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Response to pokerfan (Reply #106)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:22 PM

112. You have a point and I don't just mean type size

We always need more ways to be evil.



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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:36 PM

51. I don't agree! Two spaces is the way to go!

I will not be moved on this score!



Now, if we could only get people to write in complete and coherent sentences, this argument might actually be important...

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Response to MADem (Reply #51)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:09 PM

120. My curse has always been run-on sentences. When I write one I can't cut down, it's a paragraph!

And I'll probably keep using two spaces because it's what I use on my own word processing files. Helps with astigmatism to have the spaces between sentences.

The paragraphs help to present thoughts instead of doing the insane internet posting thing. Too many lines of text and I give up usually.

My question is, what about those periods at the end of paragraphs or representing snippets online?

I use 3 periods then, and when wanting to show a pause for thought. I see some use 2 or 4. The 4 really bugs me. I wonder if it has a significance?

Here's the obligatory lol cat:




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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:39 PM

52. I agree but my biggest peeve is with people who leave no spaces at all

in between sentences because they compose messages on their phone.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:40 PM

53. If it's not worth reading

the spaces won't matter one iota.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 12:45 PM

54. "Every modern typographer agrees on the one-space rule"

Not true. The APA style suggests two spaces, which is what I used in college.

Not that it means anything on the internet...

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Response to AgingAmerican (Reply #54)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:21 PM

85. Does anyone here know a modern typographer?

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:01 PM

55. What if

you have an IPad with a mind of its own?

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:07 PM

56. In high school for our senior English project

We had to buy some guideline that everyone agreed set the standard on how to do things on punctuation, endnotes, footnotes, etc. I can't remember the name of it. The teacher said that they come out with new guidelines every few years so people have to buy a new one. I learned two spaces after a period and a colon, and I will do that until the day I die!

TlalocW

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:08 PM

57. Every modern typographer agrees...

That putting two spaces after a period is doubleplusungood.

TlalocW

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:30 PM

61. The rule is for publication only

Take a pill. This is the internet. You need something more important to worry about in life.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:43 PM

62. Several premises of this thread are factually wrong -- just plain wrong

1) In most proportional spacing systems, the extra space DOES make a difference. White space is apportioned throughout the line, and a double space will usually get more width than a single space.

2) The most popular web browsers actually DO have a problem with the double spaces. They do NOT ignore repetitive spaces. If a line happens to wrap right at the end of a sentence with a double space, you will normally see the next line begin with a space.

Those are facts. Now for opinions:

1) Screw the typesetters.

2) It is easier to read documents where the sentences are more clearly delineated with the extra space.

3) For web apps, you really need to stick to one space because the space-at-the-beginning problem is really annoying.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 02:44 PM

63. Yes, I was a typographer and one space is the rule. n/t

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #63)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:21 PM

86. uh oh.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:10 PM

65. Keep your modern typographers.

It's an arbitrary and unnecessary rule. If you, or anyone else, have nothing better to do than argue about it, have fun. I prefer using two-spaces; I prefer the look of two spaces, and I'm going to continue to do it because I can. It's not spelling and it's not even grammar, and the importance of this distinction is negligible. This is a controversy of dubious merit, and I question the priorities of people who really care about it.

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Response to mattclearing (Reply #65)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:53 PM

72. I was a typographer for magazines.

Just check any magazine on the newsstand and you will not see 2 spaces after the end of a sentence. Or look at any book and you will see only one space after a period.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #72)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:51 AM

123. I was a typesetter for years

There's a visual aspect to this. Try setting a long justified paragraph with two spaces after periods. You end up with "rivers" of white space throughout, since spaces between words are apportioned as to the number of words on each line. Some lines will have more space between words than others. Take a look at any newspaper, magazine, or book. The two-space rule was strictly for old monotype typewriters. You'd never get a job as a typesetter if you insert two spaces after periods.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 03:23 PM

66. Old habits die hard.

I was a secretary my entire working life and a court transcriptionist for 10 years (where the rules were very strict and they insisted on two spaces after a sentence). I'm going to continue to use two spaces and hope someone doesn't like it.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:43 PM

70. Life is too short to worry about grammer

So I spell something wrong. So I misuse a period. So what?
You think I am stoopid because I did that? So what.

Life is too short. I am living mine. You're too busy worrying about a period.

(not a direct attack on you)

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Response to bigwillq (Reply #70)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:39 PM

96. Maybe you should learn to spell. It is grammar, not grammer. n/t

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #96)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:46 PM

97. Yea, I did that puerposely (nt)

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:53 PM

73. &nbsp;

Really?   I didn't know that.   Back in the olden days it was two spaces after a period.   Oh, well, okay.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 07:59 PM

74. I learned how to type in 1971

and I'm too fucking old to change now. Two spaces and be sure to stew long and hard about it.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:05 PM

75. Sorry....

but you're wrong. I had a job interview today and there was a typing test involved and the HR person told me not to forget that it's two spaces between a period and the next word. I already knew that since I learned how to type in 1965 so I had no problem with it.

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Response to llmart (Reply #75)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:21 PM

110. Whoah!

Wow.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:07 PM

76. And Photoshop is not a verb

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:09 PM

77. I took the commerical course in high school and we learned two. I think even

 

when I was working for the government we did two spaces. When did it change?

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:17 PM

80. You will never get me to use only one space at the end of a sentence.

Maybe I am just too old. Maybe I have been typing for at least 45 years and I will not change. Maybe it was drilled into me for years to use two spaces at the end of a sentence.

Whatever the reason, I refuse to use one space at the end of a sentence. Go ahead and beat on me.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:20 PM

84. I was converted from two to one.

I've been trying very hard to remember that. But it isn't always easy to break a habit. And sometimes my fingers don't work right.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:25 PM

87. And no second period if the sentence ends in an abbreviation with a period.

Rules are rules, etc.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:30 PM

90. That is debatable, and is not used in certain businesses. In the legal world, one space is incorrect

At least according to most lawyers and judges.

Formal business still uses two spaces. The internet world uses one. Ha...I see by habit I used two spaces just now. But truth is, I often use one space on the internet. But in formal business, I use two.

Either way is considered correct, I believe...at least when I looked it up.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:32 PM

91. I worked in offices for many years

 

and the rule was two spaces. The GPO style manual was our bible. If things have changed, I don't care, nobody's paying me to type or edit now and I won't knock myself out to remember when typing is an automatic function for me.

And I detected a distinct whiff of age-ism in that Kos post.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 08:36 PM

94. I'll keep using 2 spaces

because I like it like that. The Chicago Manual of Style can get off my lawn!


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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:02 PM

99. Does DU need a style manual?

• Use italics, not underlining, for case names and emphasis. Case names are not underlined in the United States Reports, the Solicitor General’s briefs, or law reviews, for good reason. Underlining masks the descenders (the bottom parts of g, j, p, q, and y). This interferes with reading, because we recognize characters by shape. An underscore makes characters look more alike, which not only slows reading but also impairs comprehension.

• Use real typographic quotes (“ and ”) and real apostrophes (’), not foot and inch marks. Reserve straight ticks for feet, inches, and minutes of arc.

Put only one space after punctuation. The typewriter convention of two spaces is for monospaced type only. When used with proportionally spaced type, extra spaces lead to what typographers call “rivers”—wide, meandering areas of white space up and down a page. Rivers interfere with the eyes’ movement from one word to the next.

• Do not justify your text unless you hyphenate it too. If you fully justify unhyphenated text, rivers result as the word processing or page layout pro- gram adds white space between words so that the margins line up.

• Do not justify monospaced type. Justification is incompatible with equal character widths, the defining feature of a monospaced face. If you want vari- able spacing, choose a proportionally spaced face to start with. Your computer can justify a monospaced face, but it does so by inserting spaces that make for big gaps between (and sometimes within) words. The effects of these spaces can be worse than rivers in proportionally spaced type.

• Indent the first line of each paragraph ¼ inch or less. Big indents disrupt the flow of text. The half-inch indent comes from the tab key on a typewriter. It is never used in professionally set type, where the normal indent is one em (the width of the letter “m”).

• Cut down on long footnotes and long block quotes. Because block quotes and footnotes count toward the type volume limit, these devices do not affect the length of the allowable presentation. A brief with 10% text and 90% foot- notes complies with Rule 32, but it will not be as persuasive as a brief with the opposite ratio.

• Avoid bold type. It is hard to read and almost never necessary. Use italics instead. Bold italic type looks like you are screaming at the reader.

• Avoid setting text in all caps. The convention in some state courts of set- ting the parties’ names in capitals is counterproductive. All-caps text attracts the eye (so does boldface) and makes it harder to read what is in between— yet what lies between the parties’ names is exactly what you want the judge to read. All-caps text in outlines and section captions also is hard to read, even worse than underlining. Capitals all are rectangular, so the reader can’t use shapes (including ascenders and descenders) as cues. Underlined, all- caps, boldface text is almost illegible.

http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/Rules/type.pdf

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 09:32 PM

101. Is "Oh, put a sock in it" correct grammar?

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:16 PM

108. typesetters

Did we just transport back 50 years in history?

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:25 PM

114. I was taught two spaces. Don't make me go back and learn all over!

Besides, spellcheck says it's ok. Even Firefox says it's ok!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 10:34 PM

116. Two spaces was the standard and will stay that way with me.

So some honchos with pull, at some point got together and decided they wanted it different -- I really don't care what they want. It looks better and is clearer too.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:01 PM

118. I'm another old-timer who learned to type

more than a half century ago. Two spaces after a period.

Recently I joined a group of aspiring writers. None of them seem to know the basics of manuscript formatting, which is horrifying. Oh, and one of them used a font that with only one space after the period was harder to read, to see where one sentence ended and the next one began.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:03 PM

119. I'll Stop Using Two Spaces When They Pry The Space Bar From My Cold, Dead Keyboard

I could write you a 30-page manifesto on all the English, spelling, grammatical, and punctuation errors people make every day and have no idea they're making. I was taught by my high school typing teacher that you use two spaces after a period. Not only will I continue to do it until my dying day out of habit, but I just plain think it makes paragraphs easier to read.

How many people still put two spaces after a colon like they're supposed to? Or two spaces between the State and the ZIP Code in an address?

The fact that dumbed-down English, etc. is starting to just be accepted because dumb, lazy people outnumber everyone else doesn't mean I have to start doing it too.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 11:41 PM

122. One-spacers are of dog-like intelligence and a similar odor.

They are also poor tippers and never return that CD they "borrowed".

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 06:36 AM

125. I know it to be true

but old habits die hard. It's just instinctual to type two spaces after a period. For me. It's just. The way.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 07:23 AM

128. LOL! Anyone with time enough to count spaces after periods -

- needs to find something to do with their life. Push away from the computer and go volunteer with the elderly, the sick, the homeless. Work at a soup kitchen or a shelter for battered women. Volunteer at an animal shelter. Do something to fill that void in your life that compels you to search out forum postings for a space-after-period audit.

Or go check with a physician about your OCD disorder. Maybe they can prescribe you some meds to help with that.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:20 AM

130. That's my space and I'm stickin' to it!

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:26 AM

131. I was taught 2 spaces. And get off my lawn! nt

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:26 AM

132. Finally!! Someone has posted an important thread.

One that gets to the heart of the problem.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 08:27 AM

133. Whats a period ?

 

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 09:47 AM

134. First they came for our double spaces and I did nothing...nt

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 12:46 PM

135. Your computer is not a typewriter

One space or two spaces after punctuation depends upon the typeface, I think. I really don't care about what's considered "in style." My concern is legibility and clarity of communication. I believe, given a decent proportionally spaced font, two spaces is unnecessary. You already have a punctuation mark followed by a space followed by an upper case letter. If that's not enough to readily indicate the beginning of a new sentence then either change fonts or by all means feel free to insert an extra space.

Times New Roman is lovely.... when printed in narrow columns ala a newspaper. This is because it's a rather cramped font, overly proportional, if you will. Works great in newspaper columns, not so good when it's spread across the full width of a page. Use one of the book typefaces instead. I'm a fan of Century Schoolbook as my go-to serif typeface but there are many others.

Another thing... Please stop underlining, people. This is definitely a holdover from the typewriter era where there were few ways to highlight text other than to back up the carriage and lay down a string of underscores. I have a couple of issues with underlining. The first problem is that it wipes out those lovely descenders of whatever typeface you're using and this interferes with readability. The second problem is that if someone is reading your work electronically, they will invariably feel compelled to click on the underlined word or phrase, assuming it's some sort of hyperlink. Don't waste your reader's time. Use italics instead, bold if you absolutely must.

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Response to mfcorey1 (Original post)

Thu Feb 14, 2013, 01:17 PM

137. This is going to enter the pantheon of DU Classic Controversies....

along with pitbulls, Olive Garden, breastfeeding, etc.

Happy to help

eta: I must have fallen asleep in typing class in 1971, because I've always used one space after periods before another sentence and no one has ever corrected me *gasp*

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